Welcome back to
the Creator Revealed.
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Today we've been
talking about natural evil
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and we're going to
plumb the depths of that
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just a little more
with the special guest.
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It's a pretty deep topic. Yes.
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The guest that
we're going to speak
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with is Dr. Ronny Nalin.
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Dr. Nalin is my colleague.
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In fact, his office
is right next to mine
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at the Geoscience
Research Institute.
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His PhD is in geology.
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But he has done
a lot of thinking
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about what we call
the problem of evil
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because as you know,
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at the Geoscience
Research Institute,
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we are interested
in this relationship
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between science and faith.
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So I'm delighted to
have Dr. Nalin here with us.
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And I want to start out by
actually asking the question
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that bothers me and I'm guessing
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most other people which is,
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okay, we know that
according to the Bible,
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death and
suffering entered the world
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because of man's sin.
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But just because Adam sinned,
why should animals suffer.
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You know, I talked about my dog.
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Why did my dog have to
die because Adam chose to sin?
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And that's a good question, Tim.
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And it's a question
that I think goes even beyond
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the realm of the
animals or other living beings.
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It seems that
there are imbalances
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in the earth as a whole,
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we experience events
that are very troublesome
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because they can bring that.
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We could say that the
whole system here on earth
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brings pain and there are events
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that are very hazardous
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so it even goes
beyond sickness or disease.
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It is a dangerous world.
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Why is it that our
world should become dangerous
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because of our mistakes?
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And I think my
way of reading these
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is to see the system
as an integrated system.
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There are many
different components
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that are linked together.
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And we are part of this system.
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In fact, in
Genesis it is said that,
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"We were given
dominion over this system."
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And dominion means that we
have a very intense relationship
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with the rest of the creation.
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So by our own choices,
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we can affect the
rest of the creation,
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which is quite
a humbling thought
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if you think about it.
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Think that you, your
choices can have an effect
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on what occurs in
the world around us
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and I think this is still true.
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You know, in my area of
study, which is in biology,
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certainly this is something
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that we spend a lot
of time thinking about,
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the impact that
human beings have directly
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on the rest of the
creation is something
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that we do have at least
some limited control over.
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And so when you referred
to it being a dangerous world,
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you're a geologist.
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So what would be some examples
of the danger out there?
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I'm thinking of
earthquakes but...
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Yeah, I mean the
classic ones are earthquakes,
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volcanic activity,
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and obviously also
climate related events,
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so hurricanes or floodings.
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Floodings are actually
one of the most dangerous.
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So one could say, at this
scale how can human decision
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impact these kind of events?
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And I would agree with those
who are a little skeptical,
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there are some aspects
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that where we do
have incredible effects.
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For example, flooding can
be the result of mismanagement
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of water resources.
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But when it
comes to earthquakes,
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for example, well,
there are some earthquakes
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that can be generated
by activities of humans.
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There's some link
that has been established
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with fracking
and some earthquakes.
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But in general,
earthquakes are related
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to the motion of plate.
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So it's not like we can
move the crust of the earth
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or have an effect at that scale.
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So the discussion then
becomes at a greater level.
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we start to
think, why is it that God
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allows for
these things to occur?
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Why did God allow...
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Why do we call them
acts of God when they happen?
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Yeah, it means
that in some ways,
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God warrants the
possibility for the system
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to be in this way.
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And so I do believe that
we find also in the Bible
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some facts that point in
that direction by saying,
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for example, that
the sun rises on the evil
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and the good or that God
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sends rain on the
righteous and unrighteous,
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what does that mean?
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It means that
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God maintains the
integrity of a sinful world.
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So these things can happen.
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And God in a sense,
allows them to happen,
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not that he is the
source of them necessarily.
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But why would he
allow for a space
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to exist where
these things can happen,
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and this for me
can only be explained
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if we put it in the context
of this great cosmic conflict
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between good and evil,
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where God has to allow
for sin to express itself.
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Sin has to be
expressed in a physical space.
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If there is no physical space,
if there's no possibility,
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or humans to bring their choices
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to their conclusions
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are the
consequences of their choices,
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then you wouldn't see
the meaning of what sin is
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in the very end.
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So what you're saying
basically is if we didn't see
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the natural consequences of sin
actually play themselves out.
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Why would we believe it was bad?
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Why would it be evil?
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You know, if sin had
absolutely no consequences.
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And we still have
these difficulties
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in our everyday life.
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It's hard to understand
what is good and what is evil.
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It's very hard.
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You know, one of the things
that I really struggle with
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is this business of
blessings falling on the good
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and on the evil.
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But also that the
consequences of evil
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falling on the
good people as well,
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because it's so
intrinsic to our nature
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to say that is unjust.
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Those who are righteous
should not have to suffer.
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But that is the
nature of evil. Yeah.
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So.
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Yeah, I think that is
also one of the reason
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why I love the
biblical narrative, why?
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Because the Bible
is trying to tell us,
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God does not look
and does not like evil.
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God is for good.
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And so what we
experienced today is an anomaly.
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So the biblical narrative
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is not a narrative
of progressive growth
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and, you know, finding their way
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through the hardness of life
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and think God
started things this way
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because it was
the only possible way.
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So evil, well, it
doesn't mean towards a good end,
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so evil becomes the instrument
that God uses to bring about
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new possibilities
and ultimately goodness,
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that's not the biblical story.
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The biblical story
starts with something very good
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and then all.
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So for me the concept of
a foe from a good creation
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is very crucial
because then I can side
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on God's side
and say, yes indeed
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what I am seeing today,
what I am experiencing today
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is not part of
God's original plan.
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Is not how He
designed the creation,
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is not the way in
which He wants us to live.
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You know, when I think about it,
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the way I think about it,
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Ronny, is that when
God created everything,
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it was very good.
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And he wanted to when he
gave dominion to mankind,
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it was to be
exercised in covenantal love.
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So when the fall happened,
it wasn't just a moral fall,
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it was a governmental fall,
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because He
passed it over to whom?
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It was like a coup d'état.
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Yeah, He handed the
keys basically to Satan.
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So that's the ruler of the error
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depends on the error.
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You know what else, Ronny,
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that what you were
saying really brought to mind
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our discussion in another
episode of theistic evolution,
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where people are
saying, hey, this suffering,
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this death, this
struggle, that is the plan
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and it's interesting
how the Bible sort of points
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in precisely the
opposite direction...
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That's the consequence.
When it comes to that.
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Yeah, some critics say
well, you still have to explain
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why God allows for
all these evil to exist
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after the fall,
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couldn't He shorten
this or couldn't He intervene
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to mitigate some
of these consequences.
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So still there is
an argument there.
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But what I think is the
crucial difference is that,
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it is not the way
that God has designed
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for the creation to be.
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That's the key difference.
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God has not decided to
make the world in this way.
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The model that
we adopt is a model
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where that is not
part of the picture.
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It came in later.
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Well, in addition to
that, what I love about it
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is that the plan of
salvation was also in place
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at the foundation of
the world that was there.
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So God doesn't
prevent us from doing evil
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so then we don't
have freedom of choice.
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God provides that
freedom of choice.
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We exercise it,
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but God has chosen
to redeem us anyway.
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He has a plan. Yes.
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And time didn't exist
before He created the earth.
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And when we think
about it, the Bible says
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that a day is like 1,000 years
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or 1,000 years is
like a day to the Lord.
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So it may seem
long for us, but to God,
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it's just kind of,
it's a very short time
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but we have to see it work
out so that we know Nahum...
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What is it, Nahum 1:9 says that,
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"Evil will never rise again."
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By the time we see
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what the
consequences of evil are.
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We've done the experiment.
We've done the experiment.
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We'll see the outcome.
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There is this
concept of conflict
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that is very important for me.
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This concept of
resistance sort of a battle
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and it's important
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because we can
choose to be on God's side.
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And we feel He is on our side,
He is not on the against us,
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He is not going after
us, He is not punishing us,
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He is active in
the creation or good
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and, you know, what I
like about this concept
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that it has very
practical implications.
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Today, even in a
fallen world we can choose
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when it comes to natural evil,
which side we want to be on.
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In fact, even a geologist
can work to mitigate hazards.
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Natural hazards are not
random. They are not mysterious.
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These things occur
for very specific reasons
00:11:49.30\00:11:51.97
in very specific
places and we can study them,
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we can try to
understand them better,
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and in so doing I
think we are siding with God
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in trying to be the instruments,
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the hands that
bring about some goodness
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into this fallen world.
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And certainly siding with God
is the way that we want to go.
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I want to thank you so
much for joining us, Dr. Nalin.
00:12:11.29\00:12:15.26
And well, you know,
the interesting thing to me
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is even with all of this evil
that we do see in the world,
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even with all of that,
00:12:25.11\00:12:27.18
there is hope
that the Bible gives
00:12:27.21\00:12:30.75
we are not alone.
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We're not without hope.
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We have this plan of salvation.
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Yes, evil exists now.
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But yes, we have a firm hope
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in what God will
do in the future.
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Amen, and God's going to create
a new heaven and a new earth,
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where there will be
no more pain or sorrow.
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Join us next time.
00:12:53.20\00:12:54.77