Participants: Jon Paulien & Jon Ciccarelli
Series Code: TBOTB
Program Code: TBOTB000008B
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00:01 Hi and welcome back to Books of the Book and I want to
00:03 read the verse that we read just before we went to the 00:05 break, I'll read it again and talk about it a bit. 00:08 1 Thessalonians 4:14: 00:24 Okay, but through Jesus only happens once, but the 00:27 reason I put it in twice is because in Greek the word 00:30 order isn't critical, you see. 00:32 So does that mean do they fall asleep? 00:36 Through Jesus, or does God bring them with Him through 00:40 Jesus, is Jesus the agent with which He brings them? 00:45 So that is the issue there and one can debate back and 00:49 fourth, so there is a couple of challenges here. 00:52 What is this through Jesus, that is usual. 00:54 He talks about in Jesus, in Christ quite frequently but 00:58 through Jesus, what is that all about? 01:00 The other one says God will bring them with Him. 01:04 Some people say, is He bringing them from heaven? 01:07 You know if they died and gone to heaven is God 01:11 bringing them to meet those who are being taken up 01:15 from the earth? What is going on there? 01:17 I think when you look at the whole passage, 01:20 as you just read it, the model for the redeemed 01:23 is Jesus death and resurrection. 01:26 Jesus dies, He is buried, He is raised and then 01:30 He ascends to heaven, you see. 01:33 Likewise it says, believers would have died will be 01:37 raised and then ascend up to heaven, verse 16 and 17. 01:41 That ascension takes place. 01:43 So we are following the pattern, it is always upward 01:47 in this text, it is never downward. 01:49 So God, bringing with Him means bringing out of the 01:54 ground, He will bring them up and bring them with Jesus 01:58 up into heaven. 02:01 So I think, and look at the logic of this. 02:04 The Thessalonians are grieving. 02:08 If their loved ones are in heaven, you know, why doesn't 02:13 Paul just tell them? - Yeah! 02:14 It would be so easy to solve the problem. - Right! 02:17 If that is where they were, he would just say so. 02:21 But if they are not already there, then he tells them 02:25 the way it is here. 02:26 So he's pointing to not life after death, he is 02:30 pointing to the second coming as the place where life 02:33 comes back to those who have died. 02:35 That's such a great, great point. 02:37 You know when I was doing some my graduate work, I was 02:41 taking some courses from a university that is not 02:45 Adventist, and I was the only Adventist in the classes 02:48 with all these other Pastors in the area of different 02:51 denominations I represented. 02:53 It was always interesting, you know I always got asked 02:56 as the one Adventist in the group they would say, Jon 02:58 what to Adventist belief about this? 03:00 What to Adventist believe about that? 03:02 Whether it was about death or different things, 03:05 the resurrection, so I've just always tell them this 03:08 is what we believe and share with them our belief of 03:11 what we have been talking about here. 03:13 The resurrection, the great hope and about what 03:16 happens when people die. 03:17 It was really interesting because we took a break in the 03:20 class and as I was walking down one of the hallways, 03:23 a professor of the class, who is not Adventist, came up 03:26 alongside of me and we were walking along and he said, 03:29 you know Jon, he said, it is kind of interesting I guess 03:31 I'm realizing I'm becoming more Adventist than I thought I 03:35 was, because this is such a wonderful, wonderful doctrine. 03:39 We as Adventist really teach and uphold that give so much 03:43 hope and comfort as well. 03:45 Ah hum! Well I think this perspective on this text is 03:49 becoming more and more common amongst scholars of all 03:53 faiths, different faiths recognizing that the 03:57 bodily resurrection is something that happens at the 04:00 second coming, it isn't something that happens 04:02 the moment a person dies. 04:04 There is beauty in that, some people say I want them to be 04:08 in heaven, but yet they are not thinking anything. 04:11 They are sleeping, to them the passage of time is nothing, 04:15 you see, but the beautiful thing is everybody comes up 04:19 together, the community is preserved, you see. 04:23 It's not like we're all going up there one at a time, 04:25 oh I am missing all my family, I'm up here in heaven but 04:28 I am missing, no! no! We all go up together. - Yeah! 04:31 And for Paul this togetherness. it was the breaking up 04:34 of the community that upset them so much. 04:36 It is the togetherness of the community, 04:38 at the resurrection underlines. 04:40 Coming back to the through Jesus thing. 04:42 Maybe it is just another way of saying, in Jesus they 04:46 died, in Christ, but I think more likely Jesus is 04:50 the agent Who brings them back. 04:52 He comes to Earth and brings them back with Him. 04:55 So I think that is what it is about, it is a challenging 04:59 text just the way Paul chose to phrase it is 05:03 a bit of a puzzle to us. 05:04 We have to keep in mind these letters are like a one-way 05:07 phone conversation, you hear somebody talking on the phone 05:10 and you don't know what is happening on the other side. 05:12 Sometimes you are not quite sure what is going on. 05:14 - that is a good way to put it. 05:15 I think that's what happens here. - Yeah! 05:18 Why don't you read verses 15 and 16 for us? 05:20 Yeah, let's look at that, Paul says: 05:43 So here we see the second coming itself being 05:46 described, this is one of the great second coming texts 05:50 in the entire Bible. 05:51 And one of the things that strikes me right away is this 05:54 is a very noisy text. 05:56 You can imagine the trumpet of God, hold your ears this 06:01 is really going to get you. 06:02 I have two kids playing a trumpet at home so. 06:04 God's trumpet will blow you away, you see. 06:07 Then in addition to the trumpet call of God, 06:11 you have the voice of the Archangel, you know. 06:14 He must be a really big guy. - Yeah! 06:18 So you have this loudness, this visible-ness. 06:21 Some dear, dear people they see this as a secret rapture 06:26 somehow this is undetectable, that is not what 06:30 the text is saying. 06:32 The text is talking about a very visible event, a very 06:35 public event that is loud and noisy and in-your-face 06:39 kind of experience here, rather than a secret. 06:43 Paul's answer to the whole issue here, the Thessalonians 06:47 are grieving and he says look, he says, this is the way 06:52 God is going to fix this problem. 06:54 First of all, the dead in Christ will rise. 06:58 Now notice he says first. 06:59 He says those who are alive are not going to precede 07:05 those who have died. 07:06 Somehow they were concerned that those who had died 07:10 would be disadvantaged at the second coming. 07:12 Paul says, no way. Here is what's going to happen. 07:15 When Jesus comes, you who are alive are going to be 07:18 there, but first thing He is going to raise up the dead. 07:22 When He raises up the dead, you will all be together 07:25 right there on the earth. 07:27 Next thing that happens is they ascend up to meet Him 07:31 in the air. 07:32 So the second thing that happens is going up together, 07:36 so we will be together, and there is several together 07:41 words in this passage that shows when they rise up to 07:45 meet Jesus, they will be rising up together. 07:47 Now one thing Paul doesn't say here, he doesn't say 07:52 where they go after they meet. 07:56 Some Christians believe they meet Jesus in the air 07:58 and then they come back to earth and Jesus reigns 08:01 here on the earth. 08:02 We believe as Seventh-day Adventist, that when we rise 08:06 up to meet Jesus in the air so we continue on up. 08:10 And in this passage it is always up. 08:13 The whole movement of this passage is up. 08:15 Jesus, He dies, He rises, He ascends to heaven and 08:19 then the believers they rise, and they ascend up into 08:23 the air to meet Jesus there. 08:26 Do they go on up to heaven, or do they come back to earth? 08:29 He doesn't say, and Jon can you help us with that? 08:33 Will one of the things I like to do as a Pastor when I am 08:36 studying with people, or people have questions about this, 08:40 I love to take 1 Thessalonians 4 that we are looking at 08:43 and 1 Corinthians 15, and Revelation 20. 08:47 When you take those three chapters, and I asked people 08:51 just to take a regular blank sheet of paper and just make 08:55 a timeline of what those three chapters tell you. 08:57 Because those three chapters tell you exactly what takes 09:01 place when Christ comes and the resurrection happens. 09:05 I love how you really brought that out together, 09:07 Together we go with Christ and it tells the whole timeline of 09:11 that millennium period and then when Christ comes back with 09:15 His people and makes the earth new. 09:17 You can get into more details about that, but I would 09:20 encourage you if you haven't done that, just take those 09:22 three chapters, this chapter 1 Thessalonians 4, 09:26 1 Corinthians 15 and Revelation Chapter 20. 09:29 Just make a timeline there with Christ coming and what 09:32 happens there, and it will explain everything all the 09:35 way until Christ comes back again with these people and 09:38 make the earth knew and I think you will find that 09:39 a really fulfilling exercise, if you will. 09:42 So the millennium then begins right after Jesus coming? 09:46 - Right, right! - and then the question becomes during 09:50 the millennium will we be here on earth, or will we be 09:53 up in heaven? That's the question. 09:56 We will settle that in a little bit. - Right! 09:59 But why don't we take a look at 1 Thessalonians 4 again, 10:03 and I'm going to read verses 16-18. 10:07 It says: 10:40 Now the fascinating thing is in the Greek that is 10:44 exactly what that letter you read earlier, they were 10:47 saying there is nothing you can do about these things. 10:49 That is the way it is. 10:51 People are dead and their gone, so comfort one another with 10:55 these things, and that is such a shallow comfort isn't it? 11:00 But here Paul is saying, you comfort one another 11:04 because you know that the hope is real. 11:05 You know it is going to happen, and from their perspective 11:09 when my mom died, it dawned on me, from her perspective 11:13 Jesus had already come. 11:15 I don't need to grieve for her because when she is asleep 11:18 the passage of time is just like zero. 11:21 The next thing she knows is that Jesus is coming and 11:23 she is back together with us. 11:24 So we are waiting, but in her consciousness there will 11:28 be no waiting because there is no passage of time in 11:31 the sleep of death. 11:33 Now there is one more text I think it is really 11:37 significant here, and that is John 14, because that 11:40 is the only place in the Bible I know of that clearly 11:44 tells us exactly what happens at that time. 11:48 Would you like to read that for us? 11:49 - Sure, I would love to. Jesus says: 12:09 Here is the thing. Jesus doesn't say, I go to 12:13 prepare a place for you and I come, He doesn't say, 12:16 I will come again so that I can be with you. 12:21 So that where you are I can be also. 12:24 He says no, I'm going to bring you where I am and 12:28 you can be also, Jesus is in heaven and He brings 12:31 them up there with Him, John 14 is clear. 12:34 1 Thessalonians 4 by itself is not clear. 12:37 But John 14 is very clear, so here's the bottom line. 12:41 If Paul wants to comfort the Thessalonians, if the 12:45 Thessalonians if they are dead or in heaven, then why are they 12:49 grieving? If they don't know that the dead are in 12:52 heaven, why does Paul tell them? 12:54 You see, clearly that idea is not in Paul's mind. 12:58 He puts their hope on the second coming of Jesus and 13:02 the resurrection. - Yeah! 13:04 Well now this is just phenomenal knowledge that the 13:07 Spirit gave Paul to speak to the hearts of people today, 13:11 and even in Thessalonica. 13:12 So we can be so grateful for the knowledge that God has 13:15 given to us through His word here in 1 Thessalonians. 13:18 We can have hope to know that Jesus is coming again. 13:21 If we have lost loved ones we will be with them again 13:24 by His grace. 13:25 Until next time, we will see you. God bless! |
Revised 2023-01-25