Hi and welcome back to
Books of the Book and I want to
00:00:01.10\00:00:03.33
read the verse that we
read just before we went to the
00:00:03.33\00:00:05.77
break, I'll read it
again and talk about it a bit.
00:00:05.77\00:00:08.17
1 Thessalonians 4:14:
00:00:08.17\00:00:11.21
Okay, but through Jesus
only happens once, but the
00:00:24.32\00:00:27.42
reason I put it in twice
is because in Greek the word
00:00:27.42\00:00:30.49
order isn't critical, you see.
00:00:30.49\00:00:32.96
So does that mean
do they fall asleep?
00:00:32.96\00:00:36.43
Through Jesus, or does God
bring them with Him through
00:00:36.43\00:00:40.37
Jesus, is Jesus the agent
with which He brings them?
00:00:40.37\00:00:45.04
So that is the issue there
and one can debate back and
00:00:45.04\00:00:49.64
fourth, so there is a
couple of challenges here.
00:00:49.64\00:00:52.25
What is this through
Jesus, that is usual.
00:00:52.25\00:00:54.78
He talks about in Jesus,
in Christ quite frequently but
00:00:54.78\00:00:58.72
through Jesus,
what is that all about?
00:00:58.72\00:01:00.56
The other one says God
will bring them with Him.
00:01:00.56\00:01:04.59
Some people say, is He
bringing them from heaven?
00:01:04.59\00:01:07.40
You know if they died
and gone to heaven is God
00:01:07.40\00:01:11.23
bringing them to meet
those who are being taken up
00:01:11.23\00:01:15.00
from the earth?
What is going on there?
00:01:15.00\00:01:17.67
I think when you
look at the whole passage,
00:01:17.67\00:01:20.78
as you just read it,
the model for the redeemed
00:01:20.78\00:01:23.85
is Jesus death and resurrection.
00:01:23.85\00:01:26.18
Jesus dies, He is
buried, He is raised and then
00:01:26.18\00:01:30.39
He ascends to heaven, you see.
00:01:30.39\00:01:33.42
Likewise it says, believers
would have died will be
00:01:33.42\00:01:37.46
raised and then ascend up
to heaven, verse 16 and 17.
00:01:37.46\00:01:41.40
That ascension takes place.
00:01:41.40\00:01:43.40
So we are following the
pattern, it is always upward
00:01:43.40\00:01:47.14
in this text, it
is never downward.
00:01:47.14\00:01:49.67
So God, bringing with
Him means bringing out of the
00:01:49.67\00:01:54.01
ground, He will bring them
up and bring them with Jesus
00:01:54.01\00:01:58.31
up into heaven.
00:01:58.31\00:02:01.08
So I think, and look
at the logic of this.
00:02:01.08\00:02:04.79
The Thessalonians are grieving.
00:02:04.79\00:02:08.42
If their loved ones are in
heaven, you know, why doesn't
00:02:08.42\00:02:13.33
Paul just tell them? - Yeah!
00:02:13.33\00:02:14.86
It would be so easy to
solve the problem. - Right!
00:02:14.86\00:02:17.60
If that is where they
were, he would just say so.
00:02:17.60\00:02:21.40
But if they are not already
there, then he tells them
00:02:21.40\00:02:25.17
the way it is here.
00:02:25.17\00:02:26.78
So he's pointing to
not life after death, he is
00:02:26.78\00:02:30.08
pointing to the second
coming as the place where life
00:02:30.08\00:02:33.08
comes back to
those who have died.
00:02:33.08\00:02:35.28
That's such a
great, great point.
00:02:35.28\00:02:37.42
You know when I was doing
some my graduate work, I was
00:02:37.42\00:02:41.69
taking some courses
from a university that is not
00:02:41.69\00:02:45.99
Adventist, and I was the
only Adventist in the classes
00:02:45.99\00:02:48.66
with all these other
Pastors in the area of different
00:02:48.66\00:02:51.37
denominations I represented.
00:02:51.37\00:02:53.40
It was always interesting,
you know I always got asked
00:02:53.40\00:02:56.17
as the one Adventist in
the group they would say, Jon
00:02:56.17\00:02:58.91
what to Adventist
belief about this?
00:02:58.91\00:03:00.78
What to Adventist
believe about that?
00:03:00.78\00:03:02.58
Whether it was about
death or different things,
00:03:02.58\00:03:05.58
the resurrection, so I've
just always tell them this
00:03:05.58\00:03:08.58
is what we believe and
share with them our belief of
00:03:08.58\00:03:11.55
what we have been
talking about here.
00:03:11.55\00:03:13.05
The resurrection, the
great hope and about what
00:03:13.05\00:03:16.06
happens when people die.
00:03:16.06\00:03:17.29
It was really interesting
because we took a break in the
00:03:17.29\00:03:20.23
class and as I was walking
down one of the hallways,
00:03:20.23\00:03:23.60
a professor of the class,
who is not Adventist, came up
00:03:23.60\00:03:26.27
alongside of me and we
were walking along and he said,
00:03:26.27\00:03:29.20
you know Jon, he said, it
is kind of interesting I guess
00:03:29.20\00:03:31.94
I'm realizing I'm becoming
more Adventist than I thought I
00:03:31.94\00:03:35.28
was, because this is such a
wonderful, wonderful doctrine.
00:03:35.28\00:03:39.21
We as Adventist really teach
and uphold that give so much
00:03:39.21\00:03:43.12
hope and comfort as well.
00:03:43.12\00:03:45.82
Ah hum! Well I think this
perspective on this text is
00:03:45.82\00:03:49.72
becoming more and more
common amongst scholars of all
00:03:49.72\00:03:53.60
faiths, different
faiths recognizing that the
00:03:53.60\00:03:57.90
bodily resurrection is
something that happens at the
00:03:57.90\00:04:00.60
second coming, it
isn't something that happens
00:04:00.60\00:04:02.94
the moment a person dies.
00:04:02.94\00:04:04.57
There is beauty in that, some
people say I want them to be
00:04:04.57\00:04:08.48
in heaven, but yet they
are not thinking anything.
00:04:08.48\00:04:11.18
They are sleeping, to them
the passage of time is nothing,
00:04:11.18\00:04:15.38
you see, but the beautiful
thing is everybody comes up
00:04:15.38\00:04:19.55
together, the
community is preserved, you see.
00:04:19.55\00:04:23.22
It's not like we're all
going up there one at a time,
00:04:23.22\00:04:25.76
oh I am missing all my family,
I'm up here in heaven but
00:04:25.76\00:04:28.30
I am missing, no! no! We
all go up together. - Yeah!
00:04:28.30\00:04:31.20
And for Paul this togetherness.
it was the breaking up
00:04:31.20\00:04:34.07
of the community
that upset them so much.
00:04:34.07\00:04:36.07
It is the
togetherness of the community,
00:04:36.07\00:04:38.01
at the resurrection underlines.
00:04:38.01\00:04:40.54
Coming back to the
through Jesus thing.
00:04:40.54\00:04:42.98
Maybe it is just another
way of saying, in Jesus they
00:04:42.98\00:04:46.95
died, in Christ, but I
think more likely Jesus is
00:04:46.95\00:04:50.89
the agent Who brings them back.
00:04:50.89\00:04:52.82
He comes to Earth and
brings them back with Him.
00:04:52.82\00:04:55.92
So I think that is what it
is about, it is a challenging
00:04:55.92\00:04:59.66
text just the way
Paul chose to phrase it is
00:04:59.66\00:05:03.33
a bit of a puzzle to us.
00:05:03.33\00:05:04.47
We have to keep in mind
these letters are like a one-way
00:05:04.47\00:05:07.67
phone conversation, you hear
somebody talking on the phone
00:05:07.67\00:05:10.11
and you don't know what is
happening on the other side.
00:05:10.11\00:05:12.47
Sometimes you are not
quite sure what is going on.
00:05:12.47\00:05:14.68
- that is a good way to put it.
00:05:14.68\00:05:15.81
I think that's what
happens here. - Yeah!
00:05:15.81\00:05:18.08
Why don't you read
verses 15 and 16 for us?
00:05:18.08\00:05:20.32
Yeah, let's look
at that, Paul says:
00:05:20.32\00:05:22.85
So here we see the
second coming itself being
00:05:43.51\00:05:46.84
described, this is one of
the great second coming texts
00:05:46.84\00:05:50.15
in the entire Bible.
00:05:50.15\00:05:51.88
And one of the things that
strikes me right away is this
00:05:51.88\00:05:54.48
is a very noisy text.
00:05:54.48\00:05:56.38
You can imagine the trumpet
of God, hold your ears this
00:05:56.38\00:06:01.49
is really going to get you.
00:06:01.49\00:06:02.92
I have two kids
playing a trumpet at home so.
00:06:02.92\00:06:04.33
God's trumpet will
blow you away, you see.
00:06:04.33\00:06:07.93
Then in addition to
the trumpet call of God,
00:06:07.93\00:06:11.20
you have the voice of
the Archangel, you know.
00:06:11.20\00:06:14.40
He must be a
really big guy. - Yeah!
00:06:14.40\00:06:18.11
So you have this
loudness, this visible-ness.
00:06:18.11\00:06:21.74
Some dear, dear people they
see this as a secret rapture
00:06:21.74\00:06:26.78
somehow this is
undetectable, that is not what
00:06:26.78\00:06:30.99
the text is saying.
00:06:30.99\00:06:32.09
The text is talking about
a very visible event, a very
00:06:32.09\00:06:35.59
public event that is loud
and noisy and in-your-face
00:06:35.59\00:06:39.23
kind of experience
here, rather than a secret.
00:06:39.23\00:06:43.03
Paul's answer to the whole
issue here, the Thessalonians
00:06:43.03\00:06:47.97
are grieving and he says
look, he says, this is the way
00:06:47.97\00:06:52.87
God is going to
fix this problem.
00:06:52.87\00:06:54.78
First of all, the
dead in Christ will rise.
00:06:54.78\00:06:58.25
Now notice he says first.
00:06:58.25\00:06:59.58
He says those who are
alive are not going to precede
00:06:59.58\00:07:05.32
those who have died.
00:07:05.32\00:07:06.99
Somehow they were concerned
that those who had died
00:07:06.99\00:07:10.96
would be disadvantaged
at the second coming.
00:07:10.96\00:07:12.96
Paul says, no way. Here
is what's going to happen.
00:07:12.96\00:07:15.76
When Jesus comes, you
who are alive are going to be
00:07:15.76\00:07:18.53
there, but first thing He
is going to raise up the dead.
00:07:18.53\00:07:22.04
When He raises up the
dead, you will all be together
00:07:22.04\00:07:25.47
right there on the earth.
00:07:25.47\00:07:27.28
Next thing that happens
is they ascend up to meet Him
00:07:27.28\00:07:31.55
in the air.
00:07:31.55\00:07:32.81
So the second thing that
happens is going up together,
00:07:32.81\00:07:36.45
so we will be together,
and there is several together
00:07:36.45\00:07:41.02
words in this passage
that shows when they rise up to
00:07:41.02\00:07:45.59
meet Jesus, they will
be rising up together.
00:07:45.59\00:07:47.83
Now one thing Paul
doesn't say here, he doesn't say
00:07:47.83\00:07:52.97
where they go after they meet.
00:07:52.97\00:07:56.17
Some Christians believe
they meet Jesus in the air
00:07:56.17\00:07:58.87
and then they come back
to earth and Jesus reigns
00:07:58.87\00:08:01.54
here on the earth.
00:08:01.54\00:08:02.78
We believe as Seventh-day
Adventist, that when we rise
00:08:02.78\00:08:06.51
up to meet Jesus in the
air so we continue on up.
00:08:06.51\00:08:10.02
And in this
passage it is always up.
00:08:10.02\00:08:13.52
The whole movement
of this passage is up.
00:08:13.52\00:08:15.39
Jesus, He dies, He
rises, He ascends to heaven and
00:08:15.39\00:08:19.63
then the believers they
rise, and they ascend up into
00:08:19.63\00:08:23.80
the air to meet Jesus there.
00:08:23.80\00:08:26.07
Do they go on up to heaven,
or do they come back to earth?
00:08:26.07\00:08:29.67
He doesn't say, and Jon
can you help us with that?
00:08:29.67\00:08:33.98
Will one of the things I
like to do as a Pastor when I am
00:08:33.98\00:08:36.78
studying with people, or people
have questions about this,
00:08:36.78\00:08:40.12
I love to take 1 Thessalonians
4 that we are looking at
00:08:40.12\00:08:43.45
and 1 Corinthians
15, and Revelation 20.
00:08:43.45\00:08:47.32
When you take those three
chapters, and I asked people
00:08:47.32\00:08:51.19
just to take a regular blank
sheet of paper and just make
00:08:51.19\00:08:55.03
a timeline of what
those three chapters tell you.
00:08:55.03\00:08:57.47
Because those three chapters
tell you exactly what takes
00:08:57.47\00:09:01.40
place when Christ comes
and the resurrection happens.
00:09:01.40\00:09:05.27
I love how you really
brought that out together,
00:09:05.27\00:09:07.28
Together we go with Christ and
it tells the whole timeline of
00:09:07.28\00:09:11.35
that millennium period and
then when Christ comes back with
00:09:11.35\00:09:15.32
His people and
makes the earth new.
00:09:15.32\00:09:17.55
You can get into more
details about that, but I would
00:09:17.55\00:09:20.12
encourage you if you haven't
done that, just take those
00:09:20.12\00:09:22.66
three chapters, this
chapter 1 Thessalonians 4,
00:09:22.66\00:09:26.06
1 Corinthians 15 and
Revelation Chapter 20.
00:09:26.06\00:09:29.33
Just make a timeline there
with Christ coming and what
00:09:29.33\00:09:32.53
happens there, and it
will explain everything all the
00:09:32.53\00:09:35.44
way until Christ comes
back again with these people and
00:09:35.44\00:09:38.31
make the earth knew and
I think you will find that
00:09:38.31\00:09:39.91
a really fulfilling
exercise, if you will.
00:09:39.91\00:09:42.31
So the millennium then
begins right after Jesus coming?
00:09:42.31\00:09:46.88
- Right, right! - and then
the question becomes during
00:09:46.88\00:09:50.35
the millennium will we be
here on earth, or will we be
00:09:50.35\00:09:53.82
up in heaven?
That's the question.
00:09:53.82\00:09:56.66
We will settle that
in a little bit. - Right!
00:09:56.66\00:09:59.39
But why don't we take a
look at 1 Thessalonians 4 again,
00:09:59.39\00:10:03.83
and I'm going to
read verses 16-18.
00:10:03.83\00:10:07.64
It says:
00:10:07.64\00:10:09.24
Now the fascinating
thing is in the Greek that is
00:10:40.97\00:10:44.34
exactly what that letter
you read earlier, they were
00:10:44.34\00:10:47.14
saying there is nothing
you can do about these things.
00:10:47.14\00:10:49.94
That is the way it is.
00:10:49.94\00:10:51.18
People are dead and their gone,
so comfort one another with
00:10:51.18\00:10:55.85
these things, and that is
such a shallow comfort isn't it?
00:10:55.85\00:11:00.42
But here Paul is
saying, you comfort one another
00:11:00.42\00:11:04.13
because you know
that the hope is real.
00:11:04.13\00:11:05.83
You know it is going to happen,
and from their perspective
00:11:05.83\00:11:09.80
when my mom died, it dawned
on me, from her perspective
00:11:09.80\00:11:13.77
Jesus had already come.
00:11:13.77\00:11:15.27
I don't need to grieve for
her because when she is asleep
00:11:15.27\00:11:18.27
the passage of
time is just like zero.
00:11:18.27\00:11:21.01
The next thing she knows
is that Jesus is coming and
00:11:21.01\00:11:23.21
she is back together with us.
00:11:23.21\00:11:24.51
So we are waiting, but in
her consciousness there will
00:11:24.51\00:11:28.05
be no waiting because
there is no passage of time in
00:11:28.05\00:11:31.55
the sleep of death.
00:11:31.55\00:11:33.49
Now there is one more
text I think it is really
00:11:33.49\00:11:37.36
significant here, and
that is John 14, because that
00:11:37.36\00:11:40.83
is the only place in the
Bible I know of that clearly
00:11:40.83\00:11:44.27
tells us exactly
what happens at that time.
00:11:44.27\00:11:48.10
Would you like
to read that for us?
00:11:48.10\00:11:49.84
- Sure, I would
love to. Jesus says:
00:11:49.84\00:11:51.51
Here is the thing.
Jesus doesn't say, I go to
00:12:09.39\00:12:13.09
prepare a place for you
and I come, He doesn't say,
00:12:13.09\00:12:16.73
I will come again so
that I can be with you.
00:12:16.73\00:12:21.40
So that where you
are I can be also.
00:12:21.40\00:12:24.61
He says no, I'm going
to bring you where I am and
00:12:24.61\00:12:28.04
you can be also, Jesus
is in heaven and He brings
00:12:28.04\00:12:31.45
them up there with
Him, John 14 is clear.
00:12:31.45\00:12:34.48
1 Thessalonians 4
by itself is not clear.
00:12:34.48\00:12:37.42
But John 14 is very clear,
so here's the bottom line.
00:12:37.42\00:12:41.46
If Paul wants to comfort
the Thessalonians, if the
00:12:41.46\00:12:45.39
Thessalonians if they are dead
or in heaven, then why are they
00:12:45.39\00:12:49.56
grieving? If they don't
know that the dead are in
00:12:49.56\00:12:52.83
heaven, why does Paul tell them?
00:12:52.83\00:12:54.77
You see, clearly that
idea is not in Paul's mind.
00:12:54.77\00:12:58.51
He puts their hope on the
second coming of Jesus and
00:12:58.51\00:13:02.21
the resurrection. - Yeah!
00:13:02.21\00:13:04.01
Well now this is just
phenomenal knowledge that the
00:13:04.01\00:13:07.45
Spirit gave Paul to speak
to the hearts of people today,
00:13:07.45\00:13:11.39
and even in Thessalonica.
00:13:11.39\00:13:12.79
So we can be so grateful
for the knowledge that God has
00:13:12.79\00:13:15.36
given to us through His
word here in 1 Thessalonians.
00:13:15.36\00:13:18.39
We can have hope to know
that Jesus is coming again.
00:13:18.39\00:13:21.20
If we have lost loved
ones we will be with them again
00:13:21.20\00:13:24.03
by His grace.
00:13:24.03\00:13:25.27
Until next time, we
will see you. God bless!
00:13:25.27\00:13:27.34