Participants: Richard O'Ffill, Leroy Moore, Kathy Matthews
Series Code: TAH
Program Code: TAH000178
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00:32 Hello again I'm Kathy Matthews,
00:33 your host for Thinking About Home and 00:35 I'm so glad that you've joined us again. 00:36 Our guest today is Pastor Leroy Moore 00:39 from Alberta, Canada and we have been doing 00:42 a little series with you, I'm I right. That's right. 00:44 And we are gonna be using this chart here 00:46 in this program quite a little bit and also Pastor 00:49 Richard O'Ffill from Conference in Florida, 00:52 the Florida Conference of Seventh-Day Adventist. 00:53 And by the way, when you refer that chart I must, 00:56 you know, remind you that I pose for that. 00:58 Oh! Yeah alright this is a picture of Dix Bryan 01:02 I think. No really it's not, 01:04 but he likes to make fun about it. 01:06 Actually today we are going to be talking a great 01:09 deal about God's gift of choice to us. 01:12 Yeah, right. Aren't we? 01:13 And in the home and with our children with our 01:15 families there is this developing choice 01:18 isn't there? I think, developing the will. 01:21 In other programs, I think we brought out that when 01:24 God's starts a little baby that part is undeveloped, 01:28 underdeveloped it was now what she was trying 01:31 to say about it Pastor. Right which part, 01:32 which part is underdeveloped. 01:33 We are talking about the higher centers, 01:35 the parts that has do with the reason 01:37 and the judgment and the will. 01:38 Yes, right this part, yes, yes, and while we got other 01:42 natural things that are functioning the things 01:44 that we say animal nature and we are not talking 01:48 about something that's wrong. Right. 01:49 We are saying that the part that connects a child 01:52 with God when the child is born 01:54 hasn't been developed yet, yes. 01:56 Yeah, we are talking about the autonomic 01:57 nervous system, as supposed to, which is 01:59 fully operative when the child is born. Yes. 02:01 And indeed when I say fully operative it goes into 02:06 action actually before the child is born. Right. 02:10 And so when the child is born he has a desire 02:15 to eat and so he is eager to eat and so forth. 02:19 Those things without thinking about. 02:21 Yeah, but that's all has to do with what we call 02:23 the lower or animal nature and because 02:26 that's the way God created us. 02:28 And it can rightly be called that. 02:29 God created us in such a way that we could relate 02:31 to the animal world because we are animals 02:34 and we have animal instincts limited instincts 02:38 not like the birds that have such keen instincts. 02:42 Right. So they can fly thousands of miles 02:44 and so forth, but we do have instincts 02:47 that are a great blessing to life. 02:49 God intended that they be a part of our experience, 02:52 but he also made us in his own image. Amen to that. 02:57 And with the higher center the cerebral cortex, 03:01 where you exercise, reason, judgment, 03:04 and the exercise of will. 03:06 It's the exercise of judgment in relation to region 03:10 that involves that we call the conscious. Yes. 03:13 And all, the God planned all of this 03:17 to be under his own personal direction. Yes. 03:21 The Holy Spirit, he would give his word by this 03:24 instructions, it didn't have to be written down, 03:27 but his instructions, his word would guide us 03:33 and in that God intended and powered us through 03:38 the will to control the lower nature, 03:43 which has to do with the secretion of hormones 03:46 and other things that went in balance are wonderful 03:49 thing, when they get out of balance, 03:51 and particular when we respond to them 03:55 instead of to God's word can create havoc. Yes. 03:59 And end result in, an immediate 04:02 trauma and eventual death. 04:04 So this part has to be developed. 04:06 This is the part that has to be developed, 04:08 but when the child is born he operates on this level. 04:12 The parents in turn have already developed 04:16 cerebral cortex and they are designed, 04:20 and by the way God never intended 04:21 for little children to bear children. Yes. 04:25 That's a point we can talk 04:27 about that for a little while. 04:28 He intends for parents to be parents. Yes right. 04:32 And, if they are under his authority. Yes. 04:36 Then the exercise of their reason 04:38 and their judgment governs the child 04:41 as his own higher faculties will do later. 04:47 He wants to transfer over to him. 04:49 Excuse me in another programs, 04:51 I think that one of the points that we brought out 04:53 and I think it's essential to remind us of this 04:57 is that the child doesn't connect with God. 05:03 It's the parent the child connects with the parent. 05:07 Right. The parent connects with God and so in those 05:10 early years, we can say that the parent is standing 05:14 in the place of God for the child. Yes. 05:15 But of course the purpose then of the parent raising 05:19 the child is to establish them this relationship 05:22 of the child directly with God. 05:24 In other words, becoming less dependent on the parent 05:26 and then totally dependent on God. 05:28 And I think here is where in our program today 05:31 you are going to illustrate how that happens. 05:33 Yes, of course. And just to mention a further word 05:40 of that is that parents must be willing to act 05:46 in the place of God for the infant 05:49 and then as the child grows 05:52 they must give him little choices. 05:55 To begin with very small choices, 05:59 choices regarding clothing, you know, 06:03 choices regarding little things. Within limits. 06:07 That he is capable of making choices about. 06:09 Right, right. So that this will exercise his higher 06:14 faculties, but the most important thing is authority. 06:17 Yes. The parent must establish the authority of God 06:21 by establishing their own authority because 06:25 they stand in the place of God. Right. 06:27 And the child who learns to respond fully 06:30 to the authority of the parent, while the parent 06:34 is teaching him and focusing his attention to God 06:38 the Holy Spirit even on the very small child 06:41 will begin impressing his mind, he may not be capable 06:46 of the kind of choice that he will later on. Right. 06:50 But his mind will be exercised by the Holy Spirit 06:53 because the Holy Spirit not only works upon the 06:56 parent's cerebral cortex, but upon the child's. 07:01 Well it's not forcing itself on us. No, no. 07:04 I am hearing you saying that, that in the creation 07:09 order of things that it's our will 07:12 that makes us distinctly human. 07:13 And that's right and what we have here is reason 07:17 and judgment, but if it were not for will 07:20 then we would be automations 07:23 even if we couldn't think for ourselves, 07:26 we couldn't act for ourselves, we will be slaves. 07:28 And this is where today's program is going to go 07:33 and that has to do with God's supreme love for man, 07:38 so great that he was willing to take the risk 07:43 of giving a human being the privilege 07:47 of rebelling against him. Yes. 07:50 Now, but without that the privilege 07:52 or willing against him without the freedom, 07:54 the actual freedom, true freedom to rebel 07:58 he cannot have the freedom to laugh. 08:00 Of course, because you know, he is, he is, Kathy 08:03 he is saying that in a way that kind of shakes you, 08:05 the freedom to rebel, you see, before the rebellion 08:09 came, we didn't know what this was. 08:11 What that was, yes. This freedom was not a freedom 08:14 to rebel, it was a freedom to love, 08:16 it was a freedom to serve with joy. 08:18 We didn't even know what this flip was 08:20 and have you ever heard of Murphy's Law. Oh! Yes. 08:24 Then I think that what's you are talking about, 08:25 you are talking about that in that freedom to love 08:28 was if anything can happen and it will happen. 08:31 And it did happen. In other words, 08:33 the unthinkable, the unthinkable happen. 08:35 But you see the power of choice 08:37 is the power to move either way, 08:41 and the power to love necessitates 08:45 the power to hate. What do you mean? 08:50 That's means that the child must be free or man, 08:53 must be free to choose to respond 08:56 to God's love or to resist it. Yes. 08:58 Because we cannot resist it then he has no function 09:02 and there is no development of love 09:06 because it is the choice to love. You see, alright. 09:10 First of all God's love 09:11 is the principle of self sacrifice. Alright. 09:14 Now let's think about the trees of the garden. 09:17 God's love involves the central principles 09:22 of self sacrifice. God went to the cross 09:24 to exhibit his love, his sacrifice, 09:29 establishes some idea of what love really is. 09:35 Well go back to those trees. Yes. 09:37 And the trees will give you the choice, 09:39 here, here is God's two trees 09:42 both in the middle of the garden. 09:43 When I first realized that the tree of knowledge 09:46 was very close apparently to the tree to life, 09:50 of life yes, how close we don't know, 09:51 but both were in the midst to the garden. 09:53 It's a kind sorbet to me and I wonder 09:56 why would God do that. 09:57 And the reason why the God wanted man to develop 10:01 a love relationship with himself, 10:04 but love is self sacrifice, self-renouncing. 10:08 Man must learn to honor God and follow him 10:14 because he loves him not because he has to, 10:17 but when there is no choice. 10:18 There is no development of that self sacrificing love. 10:23 Right. Could I say this Kathy because this just 10:25 begins to ringing in my head, it's blowing our minds, 10:27 wrestling, thinking of these great thoughts 10:31 that a child's dependence on its parent 10:37 is not love based. Right, well see I am sitting here 10:41 wrestling with similar things like how okay. 10:43 How can I make this really more clear 10:46 for a parent who is dealing with the child. 10:48 You already gets, it gets very etherial. 10:51 In another words Kathy what I'm saying is 10:53 when that child is crying holding on the momma. 10:55 It might be for selfish reasons, 10:57 it's for, it's to survive, it's to take care of me, 11:01 and it's to protect me, but it's only later when that 11:05 will begins to function that you are talking about. 11:07 That the child begins to understand what love is. 11:10 In other words, just because momma is feeding me 11:12 and putting me to bed. Right. 11:13 And protecting me. Even when a child 11:15 can first say I love you, it's not because they; 11:17 there is really no love. 11:19 The point that it will be later on. 11:21 The child is echoing the parents 11:23 love in that extent it's good. 11:26 But he doesn't have any comprehension 11:29 of what it is he is talking about love. 11:31 And he doesn't know yet by experience 11:34 what it is to restrain or to renew itself 11:38 or to sacrifice self for the good of others. 11:41 Can you hold that thought just a minute because 11:42 I've got some and popped into my mind. 11:44 You know some people are wondering 11:45 whether they want to go to heaven 11:46 because they've heard that 11:48 we won't leave there as husband and wife. 11:49 You know where I am coming from. Yes, yes. 11:51 And so you know one man said to me one time 11:53 Pastor Moore he said you know if we can't live 11:57 together as husband and wife when we go to heaven, 11:59 I don't want to go. And I thought to myself 12:01 isn't this incredible. Yes. 12:02 Isn't this incredible that he would think 12:04 that the epitome of love has to do 12:07 with the intimate relationships and I thought 12:09 and I thought to myself true love, true love, 12:12 take away the hormones. Yes. 12:14 True love take away the fear, 12:15 take away the dependency, where hey man 12:17 I better you know my daddy 12:19 doesn't protect me I am in a bad way. 12:21 You strip all of these negative, 12:23 call them negative things away and what you are left 12:25 with is a love that we could 12:28 never imagine in our life. 12:29 You know, I think that the relationship 12:31 with the heavenly beings have to each other 12:33 is the height of love and a depth of love 12:37 and with love that we haven't even began to taste. 12:39 We know, we know. Because, we have these 12:41 frailties all mixed in. Yes. 12:43 You know if you don't mind. 12:45 I would like to move back to the scripture. 12:48 I don't mind you don't have to ask me. 12:49 Because you're, you are actually moving 12:51 a little ahead. No, no, then I take it back, 12:52 I will take it all back. 12:55 That's great, it's great but this is interesting 12:58 because truth is centered in God's word. Right. 13:03 And when we study that same word the mind begins 13:08 to think similar thoughts. Oh! Absolutely. 13:10 And but I would like to put this back into scriptures. 13:13 Scriptures, okay alright. Yeah, in the scripture 13:15 it is the picture of God having explained 13:19 to man if there are two trees. 13:21 First of all, he tells him everything else 13:23 as if he need all of it. But there is one tree 13:26 I want you to eat it regularly. 13:28 That tree is a special tree it's called 13:30 the tree of life because it is the tree which 13:34 symbolizes how you depend upon me for life. 13:38 Right and they understood that at the time. Yes. 13:41 They understood it then. 13:42 And so it was the tree of dependence. Okay. 13:46 It was a tree of receiving life continually from God. 13:52 But God says now there is another tree 13:54 that tree is a symbol of independence, 13:58 that tree is a symbol of rebellion 14:03 against the principles of love. 14:06 Resisting. By choosing to deny yourself this one 14:09 little thing and to deny yourself even the freedom 14:14 of following an inquisitive curiosity by doing that 14:21 you will be developing the ability 14:26 to love more intensely. 14:29 So how does that relate to our children, 14:31 when we help them to learn delayed gratification? 14:34 Well that's a good point, the restrictions by the way 14:40 would eventually have been removed, wouldn't it? 14:42 And with children, if they learn how to restrain 14:47 themselves for timely discover that, 14:49 that is the path to much greater meaning, 14:52 and much greater happiness, 14:54 but I want to get back to the choice? 14:56 Do you think that, of course, 14:58 it's a matter of conjecture? 15:00 You know, you are suggesting that restriction 15:02 would have been removed I see, I'm, I'm, 15:04 I've wondered that without Lucifer 15:08 the tree is a necessary part of choice. 15:12 In other words, it was. Whether he was there or not. 15:14 Whether he was there or not because I think 15:16 that you have just stated this as soon as God said 15:18 you can eat of all the trees but don't eat that one. 15:21 Then you had a choice whether you are gonna recognize 15:23 the authority of God or not, and you know, 15:26 I had heard Kathy a long time ago 15:27 that when Eve walk up to that tree 15:30 and that serpent said you know, 15:33 whereas God said you shouldn't eat of this. 15:35 This wasn't about eating an apple; 15:36 this was about being free of the constraints. 15:39 In other words, the message was, are you tried 15:43 of God telling you what to do. Yes. 15:44 You would like to make up your own mind 15:46 and decide how you are gonna live your life 15:47 then this is, this is where it starts. 15:49 And this is what I'm hearing you say, 15:51 that there was something that was 15:54 not in the nutrition of that tree. 15:56 Not at all, but when Eve said, when the serpent said, 16:00 hey you take a bite of this and you are a free woman 16:02 you can do what you want. 16:04 Indeed, indeed you will be like God himself, 16:08 because you get to decide what the goals are. 16:10 And you have the independence, 16:11 but you'll also have wisdom. See, it was a tree, 16:14 she said it was pleasant to the eye. 16:17 A good for food, but more important was 16:20 a desire to make one wise. 16:22 That's right and what you are exactly right, 16:25 but coming back to the, choice, 16:27 question of the tree of knowledge. 16:30 What was it symbolized. 16:32 Well it was a symbol of man's determination 16:36 to gain knowledge independently of God, 16:39 that's right, okay, and that would result in 16:41 perversion of good. You see, it was a tree 16:43 of knowledge good and evil. 16:45 When God finished creating, 16:46 He said everything is very good 16:49 and that tree was very good. 16:52 But the eating of it was an evil 16:57 because it was a choice to pervert. 17:00 What God had done to use to the wrong ends 17:03 to self centered ends because you see the principle 17:06 of God's government is a principle of loving 17:08 and serving and giving and of worshiping God 17:16 and focusing upon him and it's in the focus 17:19 upon God that self finds the greatest meaning. 17:23 In other words, it's not focusing on myself 17:25 that I find the great meaning. 17:27 It's in focusing on the creator. Amen, amen. 17:30 There are existence only has meaning 17:33 because God exists. That's right. Yeah. 17:35 And that gives us back to what we had 17:37 in the first time you remember we are talking 17:39 about in order for a family to be happy, 17:42 there needs to be a purpose. 17:45 There needs to be essence of worth. Yes. 17:51 Both of those are based on love relationships, 17:55 but love does not come. 17:56 You see the lower nature involves affections 17:59 that's a faculty of affection. 18:02 Every kitten is affectionate 18:04 and every little puppy is affectionate. 18:07 Let's think it's spoiled, you know. 18:08 Right. But all the little creatures are affectionate 18:11 they have the natural affections. 18:13 Man has natural affections. Okay. But separate from. 18:17 True love involves the choice. Yes. 18:19 And it involves the choice to worship God supremely, 18:23 put Him first. Instead of myself. 18:25 Instead of myself, and then put others, love them. 18:29 As I love myself and actually love them for God. 18:34 In other words, I receive his love and pass it on. 18:38 Alright. And that is why it's different in the pups. 18:42 They will always adore man but never know God, 18:46 but our little children have to grow up learning 18:50 to know God and to worship him. 18:52 So this is no fast process either. No. Go ahead. 18:57 Well you know it just occurred to me Kathy 18:59 that when he speaks about affections he is not saying 19:01 there is any wrong with affections. 19:02 No. With the emotions, 19:04 there is nothing wrong with emotions. 19:05 But yet a person could be emotional and affectionate 19:08 and still be selfish maybe Yes, yes. That's correct. 19:10 And still be selfish may be but that, but that what 19:14 you are saying is that love isn't selfish. 19:16 A difference between affection and love. 19:18 Love goes beyond affection 19:20 although love has affection in it. 19:21 Well love has emotion in it. 19:23 Affections don't always have love in it. 19:25 It's stronger. Well Love is designed to purify 19:27 the emotions and keep them 19:30 focused in the right direction. 19:31 You see when the affections are emotionally 19:35 based they are self centered. Oh! Yeah yes right. Yes. 19:38 See and love turns the pole around and. 19:43 Where there others centered. 19:45 That's right and supremely God's said 19:48 it is Holy Christ you know that the two commands 19:50 he said, love God supremely 19:52 and your neighbor as yourself. Right. 19:54 In either cases to focus on self. No. 19:56 But the fact is that God intended he created 20:01 this for the greatest joy 20:03 that the creature is capable of. 20:07 And there is no way for us to increase that, 20:09 but I would like to discuss that the tree of knowledge 20:16 for a little bit and Eve's choice. 20:18 The tree of knowledge offered them 20:21 according to the serpent the status of Elohim. 20:26 Now in Genesis 1:1 it says in the beginning Elohim 20:30 and I am using the Hebrew too. 20:32 Elohim created the heaven and the earth. 20:34 Elohim is mentioned over and over again in all the way 20:39 through Genesis 1 and then into Genesis 2 20:42 and into Genesis 3. Now in Genesis 3, 20:47 it comes from the mouth of the serpent 20:48 and now he offers them to be Elohim. Okay. 20:53 Or like Elohim. Right. 20:56 Now God did create us like himself. 20:58 He created in his own image, but he created 21:01 this dependent and that is the one thing. 21:03 He is not. There you go. That is a one thing. 21:05 Satan said you got to be independent in order 21:08 to achieve the status that you are capable of 21:11 and there is where the independence the choice 21:16 to cut off the channel of God's communication with man 21:21 which alone could keep his faculties imbalanced. 21:26 You see without the power of God's Holy Spirit 21:29 working toward the body temple 21:32 without that working through the cerebral cortex. 21:36 The reason, judgment, and will without that 21:40 man would become a captive to his own emotions. 21:43 And when Satan offered him freedom, 21:45 he was actually the word freedom meant captivity. 21:49 Well is man. Bondage. The word freedom meant. 21:53 That's what he offered them verbally. 21:56 What he was really offering them was bondage. Yes. 21:59 He knew that if he could get them to choose, 22:04 to cut the connection, to cut the connection. 22:08 You know, I was just thinking of these cameras 22:10 out here you know that are doing the work. Yes. 22:13 Wonderful, very expensive, and marvelous. Yes. 22:16 Just unplug once to see what you get. 22:17 And that's what I had. So you know, 22:19 when I think of the child of two, 22:21 when you are talking about when a child is born 22:23 would we say that they are all, 22:25 they're captive already. 22:26 Well they are born with this function and that's why 22:33 the parents have to train and constrain. 22:37 The parents must act as God in seeing 22:42 that the children do not, 22:44 are not controlled by their emotions. 22:48 Not, not become captive by their emotions. 22:51 That's right. Now let me bounce something off of you. 22:53 The human creature has a will the question is 22:58 will that will be able to function, 22:59 will it be a slave to the lower nature. 23:05 I think I heard you say this before. 23:07 In other words, it is at the point of this will, 23:10 where we are set free to be connected with the one 23:14 in whose image we were made. 23:16 But if that isn't connected that will, 23:19 will be totally dominated. 23:21 That's correct, and it's the parent who decides 23:23 whether we dominate it, because you see the child 23:26 does not have the capacity to reason 23:29 and to discern and to act, he does not have, he maybe 23:35 willful in the sense that his emotions are driving him. 23:38 Okay. But he is not going to be exercising will 23:41 as long as the emotions are driving him. 23:44 Well not, are you saying that these lower emotions 23:49 are causing the will to manifest themselves 23:55 rather than the will of God. Yes, yes. 23:57 I know there are many ways of saying this, 23:58 that's right. Because the will, 24:00 I came to the conclusion Kathy 24:02 that if you wanted to say who am I? 24:04 I am my will, I am my will, 24:06 the bottom line is I am my will. I have my choices. 24:08 And I think we read in Romans that will is either 24:12 a slave took to Satan and to the flesh. 24:16 To whom you shall serve. 24:17 Or it's a servant of God. Right. 24:19 And it can't be both, it's either one of the other. 24:21 And the infant would naturally 24:23 becoming slaved to his emotions. Yes. 24:27 But the Christian parent has the privilege of acting 24:31 as real for the child in restraining him 24:35 and training him. And training needs to be started 24:39 not when the child is 2 or 3. 24:40 Right, but as a baby in the arms. 24:43 But when he is a baby, that's right so that the baby 24:45 will be trained to respond to the parent's authority. 24:51 Yes. And in this sense, the parent acts as will 24:55 for the child and in doing so is serving God 25:00 and training him to obey God. 25:02 Now if the parent continues in that function 25:05 of controlling the will, to God, 25:08 eventually he becomes an anti-Christ. 25:11 Yes anti-Christ. So it's got to be transferred over 25:13 and in time, it's got to be transferred over 25:16 and choices has to be given The transfer should 25:18 as quickly as the faculties are developed. Yes. 25:21 Yes and those choices have to given 25:23 and the parent guides those choices so that they can 25:27 develop and these are marvelous subjects. 25:30 Do you know our time is already up. 25:31 You know it is almost got and there is something 25:34 I wanted to talk about, I know we can't get very far, 25:36 but if we don't get started may be next time 25:39 we can make a little better progress on this, 25:41 but I wanted to discuss the effect of the sin. 25:45 Quickly. Adam felt when Eve came to him with a fruit. 25:50 He felt that he could not live without her. Yes. 25:55 And the scripture says that Adam was not received. 25:58 Adam knew when he ate that fruit he is gonna die, 26:01 but as soon as he ate the fruit 26:04 something happened to him. 26:05 He had chosen himself to separate from God. Alright. 26:10 In favor of Eve, now we must not even for our mates 26:15 separate from God, because we cannot love 26:19 our mates without his love. 26:22 And, when he forego or forwent, he made the choice 26:27 to go to Eve before God, he lost the both. 26:30 And now I tell you what happened. 26:32 As soon as he sinned, 26:36 he sensed first of all a terrible sense of guilt. 26:40 He suddenly realized, you know, his hopeless state, 26:44 came ashamed with that they cause them to run 26:48 and hide and try to get leaves 26:50 and you know make a garments. 26:52 How can you put it off in 5 more seconds? 26:54 Well, the thing that happened next was self defense 26:59 and that's what destroys a family. 27:01 Every time we separate from God, 27:03 we are preparing to separate from the family. 27:05 I just want to end by this. 27:07 When Adam was finally confronted from God 27:11 and brought out of his hiding, 27:12 first thing he did just to accuse Eve 27:15 and say in effect God, she is the blame. 27:19 If you're gonna punish somebody, punish her, 27:21 but please save me and so what happens 27:25 when we make choices to cut off from God 27:28 as we lose all our human relation. 27:32 How fascinating, this is so fascinating to me. 27:35 It's get so exciting and there is so much energy 27:37 going on here and I know our time is over. 27:40 I want to invite our guests back, 27:43 watch us again next time on Thinking About Home 27:45 we're gonna go out with prayer. 27:47 Father in Heaven, thank you so much for this privilege 27:50 of coming together to consider your 27:53 wonderful plan as presented in the Book of Genesis 27:56 help us go back till beginning. |
Revised 2014-12-17