Participants: Leroy Moore, Richard O'Ffill, Kathy Matthews
Series Code: TAH
Program Code: TAH000177
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00:31 Hello again, I am Kathy Matthews.
00:33 I'm your host for Thinking About Home, 00:35 and I'm always so grateful that you tune in 00:38 and join us on this program. We always 00:41 try to deal with issues in the family and with 00:46 relationships and how things work in the mind, 00:49 and the body. And today our guest is going to 00:52 be dealing with that and that's Pastor Leroy Moore. 00:54 And he is the author of two very good books; 00:57 I thought they were very good for me. 01:00 And a friend of ours from years ago, 01:02 I'm so grateful that you've taken all the time 01:04 that it takes to get here. It's privilege to be here. 01:06 And do these programs, thank you. 01:08 And Pastor Richard O'Ffill from the 01:10 Florida Conference, I'm so glad that you're back 01:12 with us I know that. I'm always glad to be back 01:15 and to me one of the best parts of program is 01:17 when they have the introduction when we 01:19 see those pictures of you when you were young, 01:20 you and Tom. Oh! Right, right that's not me. 01:22 I have you know, you know people have asked 01:24 me that, that's not me, no, it's not. 01:26 For that, it would have to be way back. 01:30 Our program is continuing on, 01:33 we have our little chart here that we may refer 01:37 to some, and you'll tell us about that a little 01:40 bit more. And Dick, what we are gonna 01:43 talk about? In the last program which our 01:46 viewers may or may not have seen but, 01:48 and so we want to kind of bring things 01:50 up to date. We were mentioning that the, 01:53 where we are in our families in the 21st century, 01:56 yes. Is not a very good place to be. 01:58 In other words if we take up from where 01:59 we are now, we are not going to get where 02:01 we want to go, yes. So really we need to without, 02:04 without going back physically obviously 02:06 we can't, we need to go back into the word of God, 02:09 yes, and find out the way that it was meant to 02:11 be in the very beginning, right. 02:13 And in the other program I think Pastor Moore 02:16 illustrated to us very nicely how God, 02:18 when he created man he created in his 02:20 image in one part. However on the other part, 02:23 he created him out of the dust of the earth. 02:25 And so that there is kind of a double nature, 02:28 yes. There is the fleshly part of us. 02:30 If you place the animal side we are the highest 02:32 of the animal kingdom, right, right, right. 02:34 But God also made us in his image. 02:36 And I thought it was interesting where 02:38 Pastor Moore said that we were to communicate 02:42 with God. But that God would use us to 02:45 communicate with the rest of the animal kingdom 02:47 and that in a way, remember we were 02:49 saying in the program that we kind of stand 02:51 in the place of God to our little poodle 02:53 or whatever it was. Yes, you said that, 02:54 yes that's you. But we also, we also brought 02:57 out the challenge that because we have 03:00 these two sides of us we have the part of us 03:02 that's the fleshly side, that's the animal side. 03:04 Then we have the high part, that's in the 03:06 image of God but that someway in our present 03:09 culture, this part that's the image of God is 03:12 being downplayed and the part that's the 03:14 animal side. Yes it is right. Is being up played, 03:17 right, and that unless we intentionally address 03:20 this, it's going to hugely effect our families 03:23 obviously, I mean we don't need to say 03:25 what's going to happen, it destroys families, 03:27 right, right. Because families are not about 03:29 you know a little herd of deer or a flock 03:32 of birds, no, no. We were made in the image of God. 03:34 And we need to remember that, 03:36 keep that in mind and or if we don't know it 03:39 at all we need to be informed of it. 03:41 And it might be a good idea for us to start 03:43 with Genesis. Yes, again, and that's the really 03:46 the title of our program we're doing. 03:48 Genesis, the keys to a happy home, yeah. 03:51 Lets go ahead. Well the first two chapters 03:53 are really tremendous because they lay out 03:56 the plan of God, yes, for man. We began last 04:00 week by discussion of the fact that the creator 04:08 had a purpose for us, yes. If we don't understand 04:12 that purpose we cannot have meaning in life, 04:14 yes. And in order to have a happy family, 04:18 we must have purpose; we must have a sense 04:21 of worth, yes. And the basis for that sense 04:25 of worth is relationships, yes. 04:28 And those relationships must be love relationships. 04:32 Or you don't have that sense of worth. 04:33 Or you do not have, because you see it is 04:36 love that really is the basis for meaning, yes. 04:40 It is love that is a basis for sense of worth. 04:43 And so that leads us now to something very 04:48 interesting because a lot of times people 04:50 think of God's commands as being something 04:53 you have to do, right. But you know what 04:55 the Bible shows that God's commands are 05:00 based upon the principle of love, and show us 05:02 how to have loving relationships, yes. 05:05 So that we can have a sense of worth and 05:08 so that we can have meaning and purpose 05:10 and have a happy life, right. Last week we also 05:15 spoke of the fact that Christ said when 05:20 He was here, He is the creator and He tells 05:23 us why he became a creature, and why he 05:26 was telling them what He was and He says 05:28 these things I say unto you that you might, 05:32 that my joy might remain in you, yes. 05:35 And that your joy might be full, right. 05:38 This is interesting because just before that 05:42 He has told them if you keep my commandments, 05:46 right. Then you will abide in my love, right. 05:52 Many people don't think keeping the commandments 05:53 has love in it or that they don't have joy in it. 05:56 People get it all turned upside down. 05:59 And the Ten Commandments without love would be like 06:01 tyranny, don't you think Dick. The greatest favor 06:04 that God ever did for this human race was to 06:07 give us His law. In that one rule, yeah, yeah. 06:10 Without His law, and yet it's an amazing 06:12 thing Leroy, that in the context of the modern 06:16 age law is seen as being the enemy, yeah, right. 06:20 When in reality law is, law is not even law 06:27 at all really. Actually truly speaking, God's law. 06:33 You better clear that up. God's law is an 06:34 expression of his love, yes and is available 06:37 to us only through his presence in our life 06:41 and that presence in our lives becomes the 06:47 basis for our meaningful communications with 06:50 each other as well as with Him. It occurs to 06:53 me that the law of God is like the tracks on 06:59 which a train runs; now think about that for 07:01 a minute, good. Because a train doesn't run 07:04 off its tracks and if it runs off the tracks 07:06 it wrecks, that's right, yes. And so God is 07:09 created us in such a way where it's limitless 07:12 to where we can go but off the tracks 07:15 we don't go any place. That's right. 07:16 Yes, good point. That's right, and you know what 07:20 comes to my mind in terms of creation. 07:23 When God created man, remember we found 07:26 the other day that when God created man 07:31 he breathed into his nostrils, 07:33 the breath of life. Yes, yes, we talked 07:35 about that. Which was a symbol of God's 07:36 affection for man. It was a symbol of 07:39 God's purpose. The original CPR that just 07:42 occurred to me, that was the original CPR 07:45 that's right. And God's purpose to relate to 07:48 man in a personal intimate way, yes and 07:52 that then would become the basis for our 07:56 relationship to one another. 07:58 So that we receive God's love personally 08:02 and share it with others and with His creatures. 08:06 And this then became the basic pattern and 08:11 plan for life. And so this is what, this is 08:15 why the Ten Commandments tend to have sort of 08:17 two segments with it. That's correct. 08:20 The first Four Commandments then are having to do 08:23 with our relationship with God. You're right. 08:26 Am I doing alright teacher. You are coming right on 08:28 actually I don't know how you could better. 08:31 The fact is let's think about that for a moment 08:34 in terms of its practice for the family. 08:38 Yes, let's do that. Every family, they say the 08:41 family that prays together, stays together, 08:44 stays together, yes. And there is a lot of truth 08:46 in that. But do you know the fact is that 08:50 when God created man, He created him 08:52 with two poles. He created him with an antenna 08:56 to heaven, alright, to communicate with God, 09:00 okay, okay. An antenna to earth to communicate 09:03 with his fellowmen, fellowmen, and with 09:04 the animal world and so forth, and so long 09:08 as man is in connection with God, the flow of 09:12 God's own love through man to others continues 09:18 and this is what gives joy. He says I have told 09:22 you these things, I just mentioned about 09:24 His commands that you keep my commandments. 09:29 And then after He says I've told you these 09:32 things so that my joy might remain in you 09:35 and that your joy might be fulfilled immediately 09:37 after. He says and this is my commandment 09:40 that you love one another, yes. So you see the love 09:43 that God gives to us is that love which we share 09:47 with one another. You're not gonna believe 09:49 this Leroy. But when I was coming over here to 09:52 3ABN I was driving and listening to radio 09:54 and there was a song came on. 09:56 Listen to this, this shows you where we've come to. 09:59 It says love yourself the greatest love of all, 10:03 oh my. Love yourself it was the whole song. 10:06 What were you listening to. It was a religious 10:10 station absolutely; it was a religious station, 10:13 okay. And love yourself the greatest love of all 10:15 and I thought, Oh God where has this come to, 10:18 because I was thinking Pastor Moore that its 10:22 incredible how the society, 10:25 even the religious society has picked up, oh yes, 10:28 of course we love, of course we love God 10:29 and of course we are gonna love each other 10:31 but you can't do that unless you love yourself. 10:34 So love yourself is the greatest love of all. 10:36 Good, and what they do is to memorialize sin, 10:40 of course, because the basis of sin is the shift 10:44 of focus from the creator to the ego, 10:48 this is the point, this creature right here, 10:50 okay. But I would like to think with you about 10:53 the two tables of the law, yes. 10:57 You know it's interesting that there are 10:59 Ten Commandments, but in reality there are 11:02 only two. Well that's what Christ was telling. 11:04 That's right, Jesus said love God supremely 11:07 with all your, you know with your heart, 11:10 your soul and your mind and love your neighbor 11:12 as yourself. Now it's interesting that in 11:15 creating man God placed those commands 11:18 within His very being, alright. It's sort of in 11:20 the DNA, we say the spiritual DNA, 11:22 that's correct. Now the only reason why we 11:25 have ten instead of two is because of sin, yes. 11:29 Because all of the rest of them that keep saying, 11:32 don't do this, don't do that, yes. Don't worship 11:35 other gods, don't have images, don't take 11:39 the name of the Lord in vain, and then it only 11:42 gives one command for worship, yes. 11:44 Now that command is very important because 11:47 it's a Sabbath command. It's the memorial of his 11:50 creation and it is the basis for family worship, 11:53 yes. And as long as we keep that commandment 11:58 within the family, yes, we will have joy. 12:01 He says I've told you these things and 12:05 you've just said keep my commandments, yes, 12:07 that you might have joy, joy. 12:10 And then He says, and remember that 12:14 my commandment is that you love one another, 12:16 so the loving God, the loving man has to do 12:20 with the first and second table and just as 12:23 worship is the basis of family togetherness. 12:27 It also is true that the fifth commandment is 12:33 the basis for the second table, all five of the 12:39 last ones are as negation, don't kill, don't steal. 12:43 You know all of these things that were not 12:46 suppose to but there is only one commandment, 12:48 positive commandment. Verse 12, verse 12 12:51 here it is, Honor thy father and thy mother 12:53 that thy days may be long upon the land 12:55 which the Lord thy God giveth thee. 12:57 Yes. It's the Fifth Commandment. 12:59 And it is in the honoring of the parents that 13:01 the little child honors God. So then what are 13:05 we like when we are born, can you talk 13:07 about that? Yeah, well let's get back to 13:10 what we've talked about in creation to begin with, 13:13 yes, yes. When man was made he was made 13:15 of dust the ground and he was made an animal, 13:19 yes. And when a little child is born he is born 13:25 as an animal with fantastic higher faculties 13:29 that God also create him with, but they are not 13:32 functioning yet. He doesn't have the capacity for 13:35 reasoning and for judgment, right. 13:38 Therefore the parents, I was gonna say that, 13:42 stand in the place of God to the child just 13:43 as man is to stand in the place of God to 13:47 the animal world. Okay, and it's the little animal 13:50 that's born that is the little baby which has 13:55 been made in the image of God but it's not yet 13:57 able to function on that level. 13:59 But that's an interesting thing Leroy 14:01 when you talk about the baby that, 14:04 you know the difference between a baby kitten 14:06 and a baby human being, is that little 14:10 kitten would, a matter of instance you leave 14:14 that kitten with his mother for six or eight 14:15 weeks. You can take it away, it can never see 14:18 another cat as long as it lives, it'll still know 14:21 how to, dogs, climb trees and give itself a bath, 14:25 that's right. But with the new born baby, 14:27 it's not like that. You don't teach a baby to 14:29 take a bath it won't. And so in some ways, 14:33 in some ways where a human being is made 14:37 in the image of God has the greatest potential. 14:39 Yes, their printing takes much longer. 14:42 It's got to be taught, a kitten doesn't have to 14:45 be taught to be a cat, that's right. 14:47 But a human being has to be taught that 14:49 he is made in the image of God, yes. 14:51 And not only that, but the baby is going to 14:55 be dependent for years. The little animal, 14:59 most animals within a few months or a year 15:02 or two at the most are on their own, 15:05 and they are having babies, yes. 15:07 God created man in such a way that in 15:11 order for the higher faculties to develop 15:15 properly, yes, and in order for education to 15:20 take place that the child would be in the 15:23 home for many years and that there would 15:27 be a gradual process of transition from 15:31 functioning as an animal who worships God 15:34 by accepting the authority of the parent 15:37 and loving and obeying the parents, yes. 15:40 So that the parents challenge is to train 15:45 that child beginning very early to obedience, 15:51 yes absolute obedience. So the first lesson 15:53 needs to be obedience. That's right, to accept 15:55 the authority because they are God's authority, 15:58 yes. God speaks to the child through the parent 16:02 and the child worships God by adoring his parents. 16:08 And obeying the parents, so this place is, and 16:10 I don't use this word very often, but this 16:12 places an awesome responsibility on the parents. 16:15 Oh it does. The parents stands in the place 16:17 of God to the child and the parent who thinks 16:22 that they're little antics are cute and 16:24 they shouldn't have any discipline or anything 16:27 and they should just go long is betraying 16:31 the child, the role, of the parents, and their 16:33 role right from the beginning is to train 16:35 that child to accept authority to do so joyfully, 16:39 yes, and cheerfulness. And but, here is the catch. 16:43 In order for the parent to have the honor 16:46 of the child, and therefore the, 16:49 and I use the word worship carefully, 16:51 but the little child is to worship his parents. 16:54 Yeah you are talking about in the very beginning. 16:56 The little tiny tot, yes he knows about God 16:59 from the parents, that's true, yes. 17:00 But now the parent is worthy of honor only 17:04 to the extent that he, is learning, and obeys 17:08 God, like God. And the principle of obedience is 17:11 love, yes. And that the parent at the same 17:14 time where he is standing in the place of God 17:16 to the child he is bending the child toward God. 17:19 That's important thing. In this way may be 17:24 he is kind of intercessor, he is kind of referring 17:27 the child to God all the time. As a matter 17:29 of fact, reflecting Christ to them, just as man 17:34 stands as the link between the creator 17:37 and the creature, so the parent stands as 17:41 the link between God and the child. 17:44 But there is a difference and that is 17:46 you'll never train the child to worship God 17:48 directly, I mean the animal the dog, 17:51 the pup you'll never, yes. You will always just 17:54 worship it, but the child has the capacity 17:58 and we need to train that mind to reason, amen, 18:03 and to judgment and to think for himself 18:06 and not be just a reflector of what other society 18:09 is doing. So then what would that require from 18:12 the parents to do, ask a lot of questions? 18:14 What are, I'd like to get off into that I don't 18:16 know if you want to go there, 18:18 but the requirements of the parents. 18:20 Well I, we could go there with great profit, 18:21 but there are some things I would like to 18:22 share here that might interfere with but 18:25 let me say this. The parent has the most 18:30 wonderful opportunity to act as a conduit and 18:34 as a transmitter to transfer the child's 18:39 affections from him directly to God, yes. 18:43 So it'll always share the child's affections 18:46 but the authority that he exercises will 18:49 gradually be transferred to God, so that the 18:52 parents will someday want that child to 18:55 obey God, even rather than himself, right. 18:59 Sort of like he must increase, I must decrease, 19:03 exactly, that's a good. And then you become 19:05 mutual worshipers of God, the two of you 19:07 then are worshiping God. You know it also 19:10 encourage to me Pastor Moore that, 19:12 my conscience kind of gets through to me on 19:16 this because parents are tending to put on 19:19 to other institutions and organizations more 19:23 and more of what are parental responsibilities, 19:27 yes, in other words I guess the question 19:28 we have to ask ourselves is can I contract 19:31 with anyone else to be a parent to my children. 19:34 Well, because the learning process 19:36 for the parent during all of this is incredible, 19:38 not just for the child. But what the parent 19:41 has to learn to be able to do this for the 19:43 child this whole character building, 19:45 that's right, it's incredible. 19:46 Of course this brings up another subject itself 19:48 and that is from this concept of determinism. 19:52 Well how can I be a good parent when my 19:54 parents weren't good parents and so you 19:55 can't get there from here, right, right. 19:57 And so I think that in the Gospel we have 19:59 to have hope that says here I'm a parent 20:02 even though may be I didn't have the right 20:04 models, I do have Jesus as my heavenly parent, 20:07 yes. And therefore I can kind of get a 20:09 new start, I can kind of get it cranked up. 20:11 And that's why study of the scripture is 20:14 so important and that's why parents need to 20:18 establish in the child a pattern of daily worship. 20:23 And then as soon as a child is able to read 20:27 and incorporate them into it, and encourage 20:30 them to be an active part in reading and so 20:33 forth and then at a little later stage but 20:36 not much later encourage the child to have his own 20:41 private devotions, devotions, yes. 20:43 Because ultimately it is the private devotions 20:47 that become the basis of that love relationship 20:50 between the child and God which will ultimately 20:55 permit him to move directly to God as his 21:00 heavenly father, not that he despise his 21:02 parents but that he now. I think we're talking 21:06 about dependency; I think that in as much 21:10 as the child is a 100 percent dependent 21:12 upon the parents in the beginning, 21:14 upon the parent in the beginning. 21:15 See instead of being training our children 21:18 to independence we want to train them to 21:20 not depend on us but to depend on God, 21:22 that's a great thing, right, that's right. 21:25 And when we do that we are preparing 21:29 the child for real life, yes, yes that's right. 21:31 Because the Bible speaks at one place, 21:34 it says you'll hear a voice behind you saying 21:36 this is the way, yes, walk you in it, yes. 21:39 The child must learn to recognize that voice. 21:42 And of course that voice only has meaning 21:44 in the word because it's not just something 21:46 ringing in your head. Yes. See one of the 21:48 things Kathy that concerns me is that 21:50 there are so many voices, the culture itself, 21:53 the influence of the school, the influence 21:56 of the television. These can begin 21:58 to be a voice in the child's head, yes, 22:01 telling him which way to go, absolutely. 22:02 And so I really feel Elder that, in the family 22:08 that the scripture has to become the basis, 22:12 yes. It's the guide book for all that we do 22:15 and Kathy, you know I've been thinking recently, 22:19 you know as we said I think in earlier that 22:23 the church is the sum of its families and that 22:27 in fact I think during one of the breaks Leroy, 22:30 you were saying that the society is the 22:32 sum of the families, yes. And so the problems 22:35 in the world today are about family problems, 22:38 yes. And you know I think if I had a congregation, 22:41 I think that my big goal would be to someway 22:47 somehow encourage the families of the 22:50 church to have family worship, amen. 22:52 I think if we can pull that off, I don't see 22:56 our problems would go away and they 22:58 wouldn't go away, right, but I think we can 23:00 reduce I don't know 50 percent, right. 23:03 The broken homes are may be more, 23:05 would in fact may be a 100 percent 23:07 because families that pray together stay together, 23:09 stay together. It's hard to be praying with your 23:11 wife and be planning to divorce at the same time. 23:14 Yeah, that's right. Well if you truly praying with 23:16 your wife or husband, with each other. 23:19 I would like to turn to this little model. 23:22 We are gonna ask a question, okay go ahead, 23:23 that we had and have to spoken to before as 23:27 we near the close of our discussion, so 23:30 we can see how it relates to how God 23:33 created men with the two centers. 23:35 The lower brings them, the autonomic 23:40 nervous system which controls the animal 23:44 nature. It controls the flow of hormones, 23:48 the blood, you know the nerves that center 23:55 is so important and it has to do largely 23:59 with the emotional man and with our various 24:05 affections and things of that kind. 24:09 But God created man in his own image to reason, 24:13 to exercise judgment, to discern between right 24:18 and wrong and to act according to what is right, 24:22 yes. Now in this process it is the Holy Spirit 24:27 that is to guide and direct. Now notice what happens 24:31 when the child is born, they're born largely 24:35 in fact entirely with this the faculty. 24:41 In other words they're not able to access this yet, 24:44 yes. But the parents are the brain, 24:47 they are the reason, a mind for the child, 24:49 they are the judgment, yes. 24:51 And if they are under the Holy Spirit 24:54 and guided by God's word then this is a 24:56 beautiful thing because the child then will 24:59 grow naturally with the Holy Spirit directing 25:04 his mind because the parent in assuming 25:07 authority from God transferring it to the child, 25:11 this permits the Holy Spirit then to work up 25:14 on the child's mind and heart, yes, yes. 25:17 And as his mind begins to develop a very 25:20 natural way he is developing as a 25:23 spiritual being, otherwise he will develop only as 25:28 a cardinal being, yes. And as the child that 25:32 grows and matures and learning how to listen 25:36 to that voice even at very, very young age 25:40 the child will begin to hear the voice of that 25:44 spirit and recognize this. And as he does he will 25:49 learn to exercise his will, yes. And he will learn 25:53 how to exercise his will in harmony with God's 25:57 word so that by the time a child reaches teenage 26:01 there shouldn't be any teenage rebellion. 26:03 And if there is teenage rebellion we can't blame 26:07 anyone because this is a very dysfunctional world. 26:09 Oh yes. But if it does reach it and is in rebellion, 26:13 it is simply means that process was not adequate. 26:17 And for whatever reason it wasn't complete, 26:21 right, because Satan we have the word Satan 26:24 down here, that doesn't mean the flesh of 26:26 Satan by the way. No not at all. 26:28 But Satan operates through the Lord by 26:31 stimulating the Lord plans. And of course 26:35 we can go into all the ways right now on 26:37 how that happens, so we don't want to get to 26:40 deep into that. You know as the pastor here 26:42 at the end of the program he started preaching on. 26:43 Oh I know. And I'm just sitting here and 26:45 I say now you started to preach. 26:46 He is going to tell us what's on this heart. 26:48 You know I would like to make a comment 26:49 how can they exercise this will, 26:52 if parents don't start out very young and 26:54 helping them to learn to obey, it's so difficult 26:57 for them later. And also giving them many choices. 26:58 Well and yes, oh man, that would bring up 27:01 something and in fact we are gonna talk about. 27:03 I think we are gonna do that in next program, 27:04 we're gonna talk about the role of the will 27:05 and the importance of the will in the life of 27:07 the child, yes and our choices, yes. 27:08 Well it can exciting about these subjects 27:11 and I hope that it's exciting to you and 27:13 as we go out I want to invite you to see us 27:16 again come back again next time. 27:18 We are going to pray for you and 27:19 I would like for you to pray for us, Dick, 27:21 would you do that. Heavenly Father, 27:23 we're thankful that you're our heavenly daddy, 27:25 and that you've shared your creative power 27:28 with us in establishing fathers and mothers 27:31 and all together making homes with our little 27:34 children. Oh Lord we know our need for wisdom; 27:37 we know our need for help from you our heavenly 27:40 father that we might in our homes be a reflection 27:44 of the heavenly family. We pray that you'll be 27:47 with every home that's represented and 27:50 watching this program. We live in times of 27:54 darkness and times of distress. 27:56 And as darkness covers the earth and gross 27:58 darkness the people, we pray that the light of God. |
Revised 2014-12-17