Welcome again to
Thinking About Home.
00:00:31.80\00:00:33.67
I am Kathy Matthews,
and today we are going
00:00:33.70\00:00:36.38
to be discussing
divorce. It's a problem that's
00:00:36.41\00:00:40.42
been a difficulty
in many, many homes
00:00:40.45\00:00:43.34
and we hope that we
will have something from
00:00:43.37\00:00:46.04
the Lord that will
help you in this area.
00:00:46.07\00:00:48.77
It's not always
easily discussed,
00:00:48.80\00:00:50.89
but we are going to
be discussing it with
00:00:50.92\00:00:52.80
Dr. David Scdlacck,
from Weimar Institute.
00:00:52.83\00:00:56.20
He teaches the Christian
Counseling course there.
00:00:56.23\00:00:58.68
I want to welcome
you again Dr Scdlacck.
00:00:58.71\00:01:00.77
Thank you so much
Kathy. You know, I would like
00:01:00.80\00:01:03.43
for you to give us a
little bit of a recap of
00:01:03.46\00:01:06.34
what we have gone
over and then we will go
00:01:06.37\00:01:08.87
into how Christians
should respond to this?
00:01:08.90\00:01:13.95
Well, we began by
saying the divorce is
00:01:13.98\00:01:17.44
something that's
a big problem today
00:01:17.47\00:01:19.93
and it's a big problem
even in the Christian church
00:01:19.96\00:01:22.44
today unfortunately.
The statistics in the church
00:01:22.47\00:01:26.01
are similar to those
in the world and we saw
00:01:26.04\00:01:29.21
the God's view of
divorce is that He hates divorce
00:01:29.24\00:01:32.15
because it symbolizes a
fracture of the covenant
00:01:32.18\00:01:37.32
relationship
that he has with us.
00:01:37.35\00:01:40.19
And so he hates it
and we saw that there were
00:01:40.22\00:01:45.26
factors that contributed
to predict the divorce.
00:01:45.29\00:01:49.37
Yes, right, right. And
those were very helpful
00:01:49.40\00:01:51.19
for us to understand.
Because in such a real
00:01:51.22\00:01:56.23
world today, we have
this in our world divorce,
00:01:56.26\00:01:59.62
how should
Christians respond to those
00:01:59.65\00:02:02.76
who chosen this course?
Well, first of all I think we
00:02:02.79\00:02:07.19
need to be
sorrowful with them to connect
00:02:07.22\00:02:11.17
our hearts with their
heart. And sometimes even
00:02:11.20\00:02:14.78
though they may not
feel the sorrow in the
00:02:14.81\00:02:17.95
body of Christ, a
divorce is a cause,
00:02:17.98\00:02:20.58
is an occasion for sorrow.
And so I think our response
00:02:20.61\00:02:24.30
is sorrow, but also compassion.
00:02:24.33\00:02:27.05
We have not lived their
life; we have not walked
00:02:27.08\00:02:30.03
in their shoes and so
even though we are sorrowful,
00:02:30.06\00:02:33.44
we want to also have compassion,
00:02:33.47\00:02:35.58
too often we in the
Christian world have
00:02:35.61\00:02:38.51
either swept it unto the
carpet, not dealt with it
00:02:38.54\00:02:41.29
at all. Then in this
massive denial about divorce
00:02:41.32\00:02:45.33
and so that leads us
not to talk about it. Right.
00:02:45.36\00:02:48.55
You know don't just talk
about what they just did,
00:02:48.58\00:02:54.15
in Christendom, in Christendom,
00:02:54.18\00:02:56.19
yes and so we
don't deal with it,
00:02:56.22\00:02:59.21
we don't talk about
it and today, you know,
00:02:59.24\00:03:02.77
we want to talk about
it, but we wanted to do
00:03:02.80\00:03:04.54
with compassion. We
don't want to condemn the
00:03:04.57\00:03:09.00
people who are divorced
even though it was hurtful.
00:03:09.03\00:03:12.77
And so today we wanna
look in a restorative,
00:03:12.80\00:03:16.88
compassionate way,
yeah, even in it divorce.
00:03:16.91\00:03:19.43
Even though we
know that it's not God's
00:03:19.46\00:03:21.23
perfect plan, right.
You've experienced divorced,
00:03:21.26\00:03:25.21
haven't you?
Yes, that's one reason
00:03:25.24\00:03:27.23
why I have so much
energy about it? Is that right?
00:03:27.26\00:03:29.56
Can you share with us
something about your story?
00:03:29.59\00:03:32.85
I share, I would be happy too.
00:03:32.88\00:03:34.99
I was married first
at age 25 and when I was
00:03:37.68\00:03:44.50
married the first time
in the courtship phase of
00:03:44.53\00:03:49.58
things there was a lot
of abuse that was going
00:03:49.61\00:03:52.37
on directed toward me and
there were lot of red flags
00:03:52.40\00:03:56.38
that went up that
said don't do this,
00:03:56.41\00:03:58.59
don't do this, don't go ahead,
00:03:58.62\00:04:00.44
I even had friends
counseled me that this wouldn't
00:04:00.47\00:04:03.28
be the wisest
course. But you know at that
00:04:03.31\00:04:05.90
particular time, I
was rather immature in
00:04:05.93\00:04:11.16
my own way of
thinking and my thought was,
00:04:11.19\00:04:15.40
well if I don't go
through with it I am gonna hurt
00:04:15.43\00:04:17.31
her feelings and what
is everyone gonna think.
00:04:17.34\00:04:21.88
And so I decided, I
would go ahead and do it
00:04:21.91\00:04:24.79
anyway in spite of
all the warning signs.
00:04:24.82\00:04:27.21
You let her rule
you. I let her rule me.
00:04:27.24\00:04:29.36
And we were married for
twelve and a half years,
00:04:29.39\00:04:32.34
we had three children
and you know I love those
00:04:32.37\00:04:38.56
three children
today and all of that,
00:04:38.59\00:04:41.12
but as the marriage
went on a lot of the conflict
00:04:41.15\00:04:46.16
and the abusive kind of
behavior, it didn't stop
00:04:46.19\00:04:50.85
and in fact it got
worse. And at that particular
00:04:50.88\00:04:55.10
time in my life and in
her life, we didn't have a lot
00:04:55.13\00:04:58.29
of tools to know
how to begin dealing
00:04:58.32\00:05:01.29
with those things. We
weren't Christians then,
00:05:01.32\00:05:04.24
and we did the best
that we could to deal with
00:05:04.27\00:05:08.23
that but gradually
affection lessoned and conflict
00:05:08.26\00:05:14.74
deepened until the
day came when she asked
00:05:14.77\00:05:17.74
me for a divorce.
And in retrospect,
00:05:17.77\00:05:23.48
I saw it coming but I
didn't want to see it coming.
00:05:23.51\00:05:26.93
I kind of blinded
myself to it because I believed
00:05:26.96\00:05:31.67
even then that marriage
was forever and I didn't
00:05:31.70\00:05:34.96
want it to end. And
so it was very painful
00:05:34.99\00:05:38.33
and very shocking for
me. And I can remember the
00:05:38.36\00:05:42.52
day after we came
to the decision that's
00:05:42.55\00:05:47.29
what we would have
to do, then we sat our
00:05:47.32\00:05:50.26
children down and we told them.
00:05:50.29\00:05:53.60
The three kids, I can remember,
00:05:53.63\00:05:55.26
as plain as just
sitting right here.
00:05:55.29\00:05:58.18
We told our children
that's what we were going to do
00:05:58.21\00:06:00.43
and there was so much
pain, there were so many tears
00:06:00.46\00:06:04.10
that mommy and daddy
would be not together again
00:06:04.13\00:06:08.76
and it was
extremely difficult and then
00:06:08.79\00:06:12.23
of course shortly
after that I moved out
00:06:12.26\00:06:16.49
because it was best for
the children for me to do
00:06:16.52\00:06:21.10
that and then to be a
weekend father only was
00:06:21.13\00:06:26.20
extremely difficult because
I was very, very close to
00:06:26.23\00:06:29.27
my children. And so
it was a difficult time,
00:06:29.30\00:06:33.35
I went through a lot of
grief, a lot of confusion,
00:06:33.38\00:06:37.02
a lot of questioning
about myself and my future.
00:06:37.05\00:06:41.99
Because when you
married your whole identity
00:06:42.02\00:06:45.85
as a person in many ways
is wrapped up in the marriage.
00:06:45.88\00:06:49.35
Well, wasn't that the
way God intended to be
00:06:49.38\00:06:51.44
to become one? Sure, absolutely.
00:06:51.47\00:06:54.40
And so when that
unity is broken there is a
00:06:54.43\00:06:58.00
natural grief
process, there is a natural
00:06:58.03\00:07:00.32
questioning of your
identity and of your future
00:07:00.35\00:07:02.66
and who am I now?
Right, alone again you know
00:07:02.69\00:07:07.06
and then feelings of loneliness
00:07:07.09\00:07:09.70
and all different kinds
of things began crowding in,
00:07:09.73\00:07:13.27
and even after we were
at the point of finalizing
00:07:13.30\00:07:18.13
it legally. I went
back and said her is there
00:07:18.16\00:07:24.92
anyway we can reconcile
it? You know and on her
00:07:24.95\00:07:31.05
part there just wasn't
anyway of reconciling it so.
00:07:31.08\00:07:35.51
What are some of the
common attitudes that
00:07:35.54\00:07:38.90
friends have toward
divorcees that create
00:07:38.93\00:07:41.17
difficulties? You
know, divorce is difficult
00:07:41.20\00:07:44.50
for everybody, not
just for the two people
00:07:44.53\00:07:47.85
and friends are
involved and church families
00:07:47.88\00:07:50.23
are involved and they
all have their own responses
00:07:50.26\00:07:54.69
to a situation of divorce
when it tragically occurs.
00:07:54.72\00:07:59.37
And one of the
things that happens is that
00:07:59.40\00:08:03.06
there is a certain
amount of fear and anxiety that
00:08:03.09\00:08:06.51
friends' experience especially
as it was in our case,
00:08:06.54\00:08:11.70
we appeared to be a
model marriage we didn't argue,
00:08:11.73\00:08:17.53
we didn't fight there
were no external conflicts
00:08:17.56\00:08:20.16
that anyone saw and so
when the divorce occurred
00:08:20.19\00:08:24.13
it was a quite a shock
to our friends and what
00:08:24.16\00:08:28.64
typically happens is
that when this occurs their
00:08:28.67\00:08:32.75
anxiety level goes
up because they ask well
00:08:32.78\00:08:35.62
if it happened to
these people who seem to have
00:08:35.65\00:08:38.11
it together how about
us? It could that happened
00:08:38.14\00:08:41.48
to us too! And that's a
very, very common response.
00:08:41.51\00:08:46.76
Another response
is a response that
00:08:46.79\00:08:50.49
we would call a
response of shame.
00:08:50.52\00:08:53.15
And this response
looks something like this.
00:08:53.18\00:08:56.04
This marriage is a blot
on the name of the church.
00:08:58.56\00:09:02.67
You know these
things are not supposed
00:09:02.70\00:09:04.30
to happen in the church
and so if it's not supposed
00:09:04.33\00:09:08.15
to happen in the church
and here it has happened
00:09:08.18\00:09:10.17
in the church
then you are sinners.
00:09:10.20\00:09:13.33
You know and we need to
ostracize you, you know,
00:09:13.36\00:09:15.95
from the church and so
the response of shaming
00:09:15.98\00:09:20.54
the people who have
been divorced is one
00:09:20.57\00:09:23.81
that's a difficult one to
deal with because especially
00:09:23.84\00:09:27.49
when this has been
something that we have
00:09:27.52\00:09:28.99
been so reluctant
to deal with and so
00:09:29.02\00:09:31.52
reluctant to talk
about especially in the
00:09:31.55\00:09:33.74
Christian church.
This response is a common
00:09:33.77\00:09:37.45
one that we try to help
church families overcome.
00:09:37.48\00:09:41.99
But today as
unfortunate as divorce is,
00:09:42.02\00:09:45.19
this is something
that we need to talk about?
00:09:45.22\00:09:47.62
We need to take our
heads out of the sand
00:09:47.65\00:09:50.16
and begin addressing
the real needs of families
00:09:50.19\00:09:54.79
that are divorced.
And so the shame is one
00:09:54.82\00:09:57.47
that we want to
help churches overcome.
00:09:57.50\00:10:00.41
The next one is what we
would call preoccupation
00:10:00.44\00:10:04.65
with the divorce.
You know there are people
00:10:04.68\00:10:08.09
who don't want to
ask any questions at all
00:10:08.12\00:10:10.37
because they don't
want to be intrusive.
00:10:10.40\00:10:12.29
But on the other hand
there are some people,
00:10:12.32\00:10:14.89
who become obsessed
with the divorce and
00:10:14.92\00:10:18.16
they begin asking
the partners a lot of
00:10:18.19\00:10:22.38
personal questions.
You know the questions
00:10:22.41\00:10:25.45
that are really
none of their business,
00:10:25.48\00:10:27.43
but out of curiosity
or out of preoccupation
00:10:27.46\00:10:30.52
sometimes they want to
fix it, they want to help,
00:10:30.55\00:10:35.06
and so they get
really preoccupied.
00:10:35.09\00:10:37.04
I would call this
rather codependent type of
00:10:37.07\00:10:40.49
a response to a
divorce situation
00:10:40.52\00:10:44.28
or it's over involvement
sometimes to the point
00:10:44.31\00:10:48.09
of trying to either
fix the people or even try
00:10:48.12\00:10:51.73
to fix the divorce
getting preoccupied with it.
00:10:51.76\00:10:54.98
And another thing
that commonly happens
00:10:55.01\00:10:58.50
and this is more on
the part of men than in the
00:10:58.53\00:11:01.65
part of women is
that there are fantasies
00:11:01.68\00:11:05.49
and even sexual
thoughts about the people
00:11:05.52\00:11:10.12
who have been
divorced. And a lot of time this
00:11:10.15\00:11:12.85
will manifests itself
with men wanting to come over
00:11:12.88\00:11:16.96
and help the
woman a lot and help her
00:11:16.99\00:11:21.15
because the
husband is no longer there,
00:11:21.18\00:11:22.54
they will volunteer
to come over and help
00:11:22.57\00:11:24.77
fix you know things
that are broken or spend time
00:11:24.80\00:11:28.22
with the kids or
whatever and a lot of times
00:11:28.25\00:11:30.96
what's happening and
many times they may not
00:11:30.99\00:11:32.55
even be aware of it.
But there is a lot of
00:11:32.58\00:11:34.64
fantasizing about
the divorced women,
00:11:34.67\00:11:37.01
a lot of sexual thoughts
and energy going toward her
00:11:37.04\00:11:41.10
and that's something
that we really need to
00:11:41.13\00:11:43.62
guard toward because
that's a natural part
00:11:43.65\00:11:46.97
of human response. Its
unsanctified human response,
00:11:47.00\00:11:52.09
but we need to be very
aware of that tendency.
00:11:52.12\00:11:55.41
So that we don't fall
into giving signals to that
00:11:55.44\00:12:00.44
woman or even
making advances toward her
00:12:00.47\00:12:03.22
that are really,
really inappropriate from a
00:12:03.25\00:12:05.37
Christian point of
view. Another thing that
00:12:05.40\00:12:08.44
tends to happen is
that sometimes we can have
00:12:08.47\00:12:10.73
superiority
feelings and often it goes
00:12:10.76\00:12:15.22
something like this.
You know, we all have
00:12:15.25\00:12:17.32
problems in our
marriage, you know, my husband
00:12:17.35\00:12:20.01
or my wife and I, we
don't have a perfect marriage
00:12:20.04\00:12:24.25
we have problems too.
Well, we are dealing with
00:12:24.28\00:12:26.69
our problems like
you guys get it together
00:12:26.72\00:12:29.62
and so it's that kind
of superior attitude of
00:12:29.65\00:12:33.70
standing high and
looking low that somehow
00:12:33.73\00:12:36.58
you must really be
inferior people or be troubled
00:12:36.61\00:12:41.67
people or be losers
because you just couldn't pull
00:12:41.70\00:12:43.86
it together. You
must somehow not be a good
00:12:43.89\00:12:46.37
Christians at least
as not as good as we are.
00:12:46.40\00:12:48.42
You know that
kind of approach to it.
00:12:48.45\00:12:51.85
Another really common
response is that of loss
00:12:51.88\00:12:56.93
in grief. You know,
the relationship that the
00:12:56.96\00:13:02.64
couple has had prior to
the divorce is that they
00:13:02.67\00:13:06.06
were both together
they were relating to other
00:13:06.09\00:13:08.55
couples, you know, in a
marriage type situation.
00:13:08.58\00:13:11.55
Now they are no longer couples,
00:13:11.58\00:13:13.62
now they are two
individuals again and so
00:13:13.65\00:13:16.56
first of all it's a
loss of the marriage
00:13:16.59\00:13:19.00
and the church, the
friends they grieve the loss
00:13:19.03\00:13:22.94
of the marriage
first of all. But secondly,
00:13:22.97\00:13:26.80
they ask themselves
how am I gonna relate
00:13:26.83\00:13:29.93
to this people now? I
can't relate to them anymore
00:13:29.96\00:13:33.09
as a married couple, so
I have to relate to them
00:13:33.12\00:13:36.32
as individuals. You
know, where is my primary
00:13:36.35\00:13:39.61
affinity? Can I love
them both equally and often
00:13:39.64\00:13:44.29
what happens is, is
what we call a triangulation
00:13:44.32\00:13:47.83
where people are
forced to take sides of one
00:13:49.23\00:13:54.20
partner or the other and
that's awfully difficult,
00:13:54.23\00:13:59.36
it's a fine line to
walk of not taking a side
00:13:59.39\00:14:03.09
because naturally we
tend to take aside based
00:14:03.12\00:14:08.77
upon who the best
friend with or whatever.
00:14:08.80\00:14:11.68
And so not taking
sides, it's something that's
00:14:11.71\00:14:15.58
really important to
try to do, it's important
00:14:15.61\00:14:19.47
to try to love both
people, to recognize that both
00:14:19.50\00:14:22.08
people are hurting,
they both have needs,
00:14:22.11\00:14:24.74
they both need to
be loved and supported
00:14:24.77\00:14:28.05
because they are both
experiencing tremendous
00:14:29.81\00:14:32.18
pain in themselves. And
so this issue of rising above
00:14:32.21\00:14:37.34
my own loss to
really minister to the
00:14:37.37\00:14:40.47
brokenness of the two
people and their children
00:14:40.50\00:14:43.37
in that divorce
situation, that's what needs
00:14:43.40\00:14:46.12
to happen. And
then the last one is
00:14:46.15\00:14:49.51
what we would call
curiosity about the settlement,
00:14:49.54\00:14:52.04
all kinds of
questions come up, you know,
00:14:52.07\00:14:54.74
how is the
property being divided,
00:14:54.77\00:14:56.73
who is gonna get
custody of the children
00:14:56.76\00:14:59.01
and those kinds of
questions are natural questions
00:14:59.04\00:15:04.89
that people want to
know but they would be wiser
00:15:04.92\00:15:09.13
not to ask, and to
just love the people because
00:15:09.16\00:15:15.31
those questions
are painful questions.
00:15:15.34\00:15:17.54
Unless of course they
ask you for your advise
00:15:17.57\00:15:20.28
or what? Exactly,
of course, if they ask
00:15:20.31\00:15:23.16
then it's always
appropriate to pray with them
00:15:23.19\00:15:26.98
and to respond appropriately.
Okay, did any of these
00:15:27.01\00:15:32.50
things happened to
you from your friends.
00:15:32.53\00:15:34.90
You speak like you've
felt this. Yes, yes they
00:15:34.93\00:15:39.96
certainly did. In our
situation, we had a lot
00:15:39.99\00:15:45.48
of good friends
together and we were quite
00:15:45.51\00:15:48.31
active in the
community and unfortunately
00:15:48.34\00:15:53.86
what happened is
that a lot of our friends
00:15:53.89\00:15:56.33
because I moved
away from the home
00:15:56.36\00:15:59.51
and it wasn't that
far, but because we were so
00:15:59.54\00:16:02.93
active in the
immediate community and I moved
00:16:02.96\00:16:05.35
out of the
immediate community I lost
00:16:05.38\00:16:07.64
touch with the
lot of our friends.
00:16:07.67\00:16:10.23
And they tended
to gravitate toward,
00:16:10.26\00:16:13.14
the other spouse, my first wife.
00:16:13.17\00:16:15.70
Yes, and I tended to
lose contact with them
00:16:15.73\00:16:18.20
and I tended to
gravitate more toward my
00:16:18.23\00:16:21.00
work situation,
which is common for men
00:16:21.03\00:16:24.15
anyway, to gravitate
more toward the support
00:16:24.18\00:16:26.86
system at the
work provides. Again,
00:16:26.89\00:16:31.13
we weren't, I was
active in church at that
00:16:31.16\00:16:34.68
particular time, but my
first wife was not and so
00:16:34.71\00:16:39.35
I tended to get
more support from church,
00:16:39.38\00:16:42.88
church members
rather than the friends
00:16:42.91\00:16:44.41
that you had around.
That's right, and I had
00:16:44.44\00:16:46.14
another support
group too. I was going to
00:16:46.17\00:16:48.61
Illinois at that time
and I tended to get a lot
00:16:48.64\00:16:52.66
of support from that
support system and so
00:16:52.69\00:16:56.85
we each
developed a support system,
00:16:56.88\00:16:59.66
but it wasn't the
same. I had a loss of our
00:16:59.69\00:17:04.63
common friends and
instead gravitated more
00:17:04.66\00:17:07.93
toward other friends,
which she tended not to
00:17:07.96\00:17:10.76
have anyway. How
could we be more sensitive
00:17:10.79\00:17:13.79
then to you, when you
are in this time of need?
00:17:13.82\00:17:18.33
Well a part of it is
first of all to rise above
00:17:18.36\00:17:23.53
yourself, and I know
that's a hard thing to do
00:17:23.56\00:17:27.97
but as Christians
that's what God calls us to do
00:17:28.00\00:17:31.20
to rise above curiosity,
to rise above your own pain.
00:17:33.06\00:17:38.94
And in the first suggestion
concretely would be to
00:17:38.97\00:17:43.95
pray. To be in a lot,
lot of prayer for those
00:17:43.98\00:17:49.00
people who are
experiencing divorce,
00:17:49.03\00:17:51.16
number one because it's
such a time of adjustment
00:17:51.19\00:17:55.27
and a great time of
pain and loss that they
00:17:55.30\00:17:58.31
need prayer support
tremendously and I know
00:17:58.34\00:18:02.27
that people were
praying for me during that time
00:18:02.30\00:18:05.70
and I know it
helped to a great deal.
00:18:05.73\00:18:07.73
And so that's the
number one suggestion pray,
00:18:09.43\00:18:12.22
the number two
rise above human nature
00:18:12.25\00:18:15.89
and instead try to put
yourself into the shoes
00:18:15.92\00:18:20.16
of the people who are
going through the divorce.
00:18:20.19\00:18:24.49
And that's an active
Christian compassion of empathy
00:18:24.52\00:18:29.92
and if I can put
myself aside and try
00:18:29.95\00:18:34.66
and put myself in their
place, what's gonna happen
00:18:34.69\00:18:37.89
is that I am going to
be able to enter in that
00:18:37.92\00:18:41.28
particular level
rather than at another level,
00:18:41.31\00:18:45.86
at the level of self and
so it's going to be much,
00:18:45.89\00:18:49.87
much more
effective. You know ultimately
00:18:49.90\00:18:54.15
when we begin
talking about what churches
00:18:54.18\00:18:55.96
can do to build in
programs and support
00:18:55.99\00:18:59.23
you know one of
them is you know people
00:18:59.26\00:19:02.82
who have been through
this kind of pain almost
00:19:02.85\00:19:06.33
know what it's like,
when someone else comes
00:19:06.36\00:19:10.81
with that kind of
pain because they have
00:19:10.84\00:19:12.93
been there and may be
their stories not exactly
00:19:12.96\00:19:16.00
the same because no
two stories of divorce
00:19:16.03\00:19:17.85
are identical. This is
so complex in today's world,
00:19:17.88\00:19:22.50
there are all kinds of
issues involved but at least
00:19:22.53\00:19:26.70
you have been through
a certain amount of it
00:19:26.73\00:19:29.32
there are commonalities
and effective divorce
00:19:29.35\00:19:32.75
recovery in a church
system involves people
00:19:32.78\00:19:36.43
who have been there
ministering to other people,
00:19:36.46\00:19:39.07
who are going through
it, who have been there,
00:19:39.10\00:19:40.40
that's right. So what
would be the normal steps
00:19:40.43\00:19:43.75
the spouse that
goes through this
00:19:43.78\00:19:47.40
experience of divorce?
Well, there are typical steps
00:19:47.43\00:19:55.28
in the divorce
process. The first one is fairly
00:19:55.31\00:19:59.76
typical of anyone going
through a grief process.
00:19:59.79\00:20:03.06
There is what we
call emotional divorce
00:20:03.09\00:20:07.44
and when we go
through emotional divorce
00:20:07.47\00:20:11.13
we experience
separation from the one that
00:20:11.16\00:20:15.51
we have loved. Here for
a period of years typically
00:20:15.54\00:20:20.38
we have invested
ourselves in this other person
00:20:20.41\00:20:23.81
and we have invested
ourselves in not just the
00:20:23.84\00:20:27.83
spouse, but the children,
the whole family system
00:20:27.86\00:20:30.83
and now that's changed.
And the very first thing
00:20:30.86\00:20:35.16
once you get beyond the
denial phase that this is
00:20:35.19\00:20:37.66
happening to me, this
can't be happening to me,
00:20:37.69\00:20:39.74
you know that's the
normal first response,
00:20:39.77\00:20:43.02
but once you get
beyond that there is
00:20:43.05\00:20:46.32
tremendous sadness
and pain, a sense of loss.
00:20:46.35\00:20:50.80
I can remember for me it
was almost like I thought
00:20:50.83\00:20:54.09
my heart was
dropping through the floor,
00:20:54.12\00:20:58.08
that's how painful it
was? It was like losing
00:20:58.11\00:21:02.04
that part of me. And
being aware that's what
00:21:02.07\00:21:06.61
that person is going
through and there is a
00:21:06.64\00:21:09.40
normal process, there
is normal anger that needs
00:21:09.43\00:21:12.45
to happen, there is
normal depression that,
00:21:12.48\00:21:14.92
that person will
experience, there is normal
00:21:14.95\00:21:17.60
denial, there is
normal bargaining, you know,
00:21:17.63\00:21:20.36
can we make it still
work, you know, even after
00:21:20.39\00:21:23.30
it's all over. All of
those are normal part of the
00:21:23.33\00:21:27.65
grief cycle and again
that's probably one of the
00:21:27.68\00:21:31.30
most important
things that churches can do
00:21:31.33\00:21:33.77
is build in systems
that are sensitive to that
00:21:33.80\00:21:37.24
process and who can
help people through it
00:21:37.27\00:21:40.19
because if you don't
go through the normal
00:21:40.22\00:21:42.36
process of feeling
the feelings and getting
00:21:42.39\00:21:46.37
through it, then you
are gonna get stuck in it.
00:21:46.40\00:21:48.71
And if you get stuck
in it then you are gonna
00:21:48.74\00:21:51.99
do one of two
things. You are gonna either
00:21:52.02\00:21:54.33
marry prematurely in
an attempt to medicate
00:21:54.36\00:21:57.37
the pain, okay and
that's often what people do
00:21:57.40\00:22:01.02
and it's a big, big mistake.
It's almost like a rebound
00:22:01.05\00:22:05.01
relationship or
rebound marriages,
00:22:05.04\00:22:07.20
I don't want to deal
with the pain of my situation
00:22:07.23\00:22:10.06
and so this other
relationship is a medication.
00:22:10.09\00:22:14.07
In other words
frankly what's happening is
00:22:14.10\00:22:16.74
I am using the
other person to make me
00:22:16.77\00:22:19.48
feel better rather
than entering that new
00:22:19.51\00:22:23.37
relationship from a
position of strength,
00:22:23.40\00:22:25.42
right maturity in a
whole person, exactly, and so.
00:22:25.45\00:22:28.76
That's one of the
things that happens
00:22:28.79\00:22:31.06
and the other is if I
never resolve the pain
00:22:31.09\00:22:34.66
and stay in
denial of what's going on
00:22:34.69\00:22:37.25
or in depression I
can't experience either
00:22:37.28\00:22:40.35
long-term depression
or I can experience not
00:22:40.38\00:22:46.79
getting into
another relationship
00:22:46.82\00:22:48.30
when may be I can't and should.
00:22:48.33\00:22:51.05
You know, as we
talked about before,
00:22:51.08\00:22:54.29
if there is, if there
are more Biblical grounds
00:22:54.32\00:22:57.17
for me to remarry and
I would rather remarry
00:22:57.20\00:23:01.45
or the children
need to have someone else
00:23:01.48\00:23:04.28
in their life. I will
fail to respond to those needs
00:23:04.31\00:23:07.06
because I have not
gone through my own
00:23:07.09\00:23:08.91
grief process, right.
You don't want to suffer
00:23:08.94\00:23:10.76
anymore, exactly,
too much pushing back,
00:23:10.79\00:23:13.66
exactly. Can we go
into, how much more can
00:23:13.69\00:23:16.76
we go into do you
suppose here in this
00:23:16.79\00:23:20.76
section because we
got so much to cover,
00:23:20.79\00:23:24.20
yeah, I am not sure
if we should continue on,
00:23:25.91\00:23:27.83
oh, yes, we should.
Then what other areas
00:23:27.86\00:23:32.26
than can a spouse respond?
Well, there are the legal
00:23:32.29\00:23:36.15
aspects of the
divorce. You know, not only is
00:23:36.18\00:23:39.53
divorce an emotional
thing, but in the states in this
00:23:39.56\00:23:46.23
country, now there is a
legal marriage and there
00:23:46.26\00:23:49.15
is a legal divorce.
And so you have to go
00:23:49.18\00:23:53.13
through the whole
painful process of retaining
00:23:53.16\00:23:59.18
an attorney of
discussing what it means to
00:23:59.21\00:24:02.87
divide up the
property and tough questions
00:24:02.90\00:24:05.59
like custody of
children and sometimes when you
00:24:05.62\00:24:09.33
don't agree about
those things there
00:24:09.36\00:24:12.25
can be tremendous
contention during that time.
00:24:12.28\00:24:16.04
And that can be one
of the most painful parts
00:24:16.07\00:24:21.12
of a divorce that
legal aspect, you know,
00:24:21.15\00:24:25.31
there is the
expense involved, there is a
00:24:25.34\00:24:27.75
consultation with
attorneys going through the
00:24:27.78\00:24:30.09
legal process and
actually getting to court
00:24:30.12\00:24:34.68
and having the judge
say okay. You know that
00:24:34.71\00:24:39.71
almost takes you
through the pain allover again
00:24:39.74\00:24:43.41
for one thing. You
would think a person would
00:24:43.44\00:24:46.40
rather repair it,
seek for a way to reconcile
00:24:46.43\00:24:51.17
and then have to go
through all of those
00:24:51.20\00:24:52.36
kinds of things that's
right. And that's why a
00:24:52.39\00:24:54.91
lot of even courts
and attorneys rather than
00:24:54.94\00:24:58.37
taking people down that
path are doing arbitration
00:24:58.40\00:25:02.91
and mediation to try
and restore and repair
00:25:02.94\00:25:06.44
marriages and asking
them had you gone through
00:25:06.47\00:25:08.80
any counseling? Have
you taken steps to try
00:25:08.83\00:25:11.90
and work this out before
you come to this final step
00:25:11.93\00:25:16.74
of taking legal action
toward complete permanent
00:25:16.77\00:25:21.64
divorce through legal
means? Right, what other
00:25:21.67\00:25:26.61
things do you want
to share with us today,
00:25:26.64\00:25:28.32
our time is getting
short. Well one is the economics
00:25:28.35\00:25:32.20
of it, this is
something that a lot of people
00:25:32.23\00:25:37.27
especially women for
example have difficulty with,
00:25:37.30\00:25:41.77
because many times
if in Christian families
00:25:41.80\00:25:45.93
the woman has been
home with the children,
00:25:45.96\00:25:49.67
yes, you know being
stay at home mom perhaps
00:25:49.70\00:25:52.42
doing home schooling
and so forth and now the
00:25:52.45\00:25:55.48
economics have to be
looked at all over again,
00:25:55.51\00:25:58.29
the husband may need
to pay child support,
00:25:58.32\00:26:02.74
may need to pay
alimony, that's going to be a
00:26:02.77\00:26:06.29
difficulty thing, he
is gonna have to establish
00:26:06.32\00:26:08.89
his own home and
that's gonna be an
00:26:08.92\00:26:11.64
additional financial burden.
The wife may find herself
00:26:11.67\00:26:15.43
in a position of having
to go out and find work,
00:26:15.46\00:26:18.34
where as before she
did not have the obligation
00:26:18.37\00:26:21.43
necessarily of
doing that. Now she does,
00:26:21.46\00:26:25.31
it becomes very difficult,
becomes very difficult.
00:26:25.34\00:26:28.22
You know, do I have job
skills? Here I have been
00:26:28.25\00:26:31.53
home all this time
now I am faced with having
00:26:31.56\00:26:34.68
to find work, probably
the work I am gonna find
00:26:34.71\00:26:37.03
is work for minimum
wage and who is going
00:26:37.06\00:26:41.23
to watch over the
children when I am at work.
00:26:41.26\00:26:43.27
Now, before I stayed
at home, now they have to
00:26:43.30\00:26:45.11
go to school, lot
of questions to answer.
00:26:45.14\00:26:47.57
Can you see all the
economic and relationship
00:26:47.60\00:26:49.74
kinds of questions
that come into play here,
00:26:49.77\00:26:53.13
it makes it extremely difficult.
00:26:53.16\00:26:55.67
I know for me it was that way,
00:26:55.70\00:26:59.19
in my situation I
was willing to give
00:26:59.22\00:27:03.36
just about everything
to my wife, I gave her the
00:27:03.39\00:27:07.21
house, I gave her a car,
I took all the bills and so
00:27:07.24\00:27:14.55
I had to pay all the
bills and take all that
00:27:14.58\00:27:17.64
responsibility. I
had to set up my own
00:27:17.67\00:27:20.08
household and pay all
those bills at the same
00:27:20.11\00:27:22.47
time begin paying
child support and so it was
00:27:22.50\00:27:27.94
economically, it was
not a win-win situation
00:27:27.97\00:27:31.27
for anybody and
typically it's usually a
00:27:31.30\00:27:35.10
lose-lose situation
from that situation,
00:27:35.13\00:27:38.34
from that point of
view all the way around.
00:27:38.37\00:27:40.94
And you are going to be
able to share some more,
00:27:40.97\00:27:43.32
aren't you on this?
Yes, we are going to do some
00:27:43.35\00:27:45.47
more programming. Yes,
we are. I want to ask for
00:27:45.50\00:27:49.16
you to pray for those
who are in this kind of
00:27:49.19\00:27:51.67
situation. We will be
praying together about this
00:27:51.70\00:27:54.40
and as you
prepare for heaven make
00:27:54.43\00:27:57.73
your home the best you can.
00:27:57.76\00:27:59.75