Participants: Kathy Matthews, David Sedlacek
Series Code: TAH
Program Code: TAH000126
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00:31 Hello again, I am Kathy Matthews and this is
00:33 Thinking About Home. One of the most 00:36 difficult areas is divorce and we have so many 00:40 homes broken up by divorce and that's going to be 00:43 our topic today. Is divorce and going on to divorce 00:46 recovery? I am not sure if we are gonna get divorce 00:48 recovery today, but we have with us Dr. David Scdlacck 00:52 from Weimar Institute in Weimar, California. 00:56 Welcome. Well thank you so much. I am glad 00:59 that you are here to talk about this today, I think 01:02 this has been a request of our viewers something that 01:04 they wanted to deal with and can you help us to 01:09 understand how widespread the problem of divorcees 01:12 in our country and in the world today? Well divorce, 01:17 about a 100 years ago occurred maybe five out of 01:20 a hundred marriages, but today the statistics are 01:25 staggering because divorce occurs in at least 01:29 50 percent, the probability is half of all people 01:31 who are getting married today are gonna end up 01:34 in a divorce. And how is that compared to 01:36 the Church of the world's population to the church? 01:38 Well you know that's a really interesting thing 01:41 too, because what we find in research today 01:44 is that the divorce rate in the church is equal 01:48 to that in the world and you know there was a, 01:51 about three weeks ago in the Sacramento Bee there was an 01:53 article that asked about, that surveyed statistics 01:57 of divorce in this country and you know the 02:01 highest rates of divorce are where do you think? 02:04 It's in the Bible belt countries. Why? You know 02:07 well let me just show what the statistics first 02:11 I mean that's a staggering thing and people are asking 02:14 themselves why that. The number one state in divorce 02:17 is of course Nevada. Yes well, but the four following 02:23 ones are Tennessee, Oklahoma, Alabama, and 02:27 Arkansas, really? In terms of the highest rate of 02:30 divorce and divorce rates in those Bible belt states 02:34 are about one and a half times as much as they are 02:37 in the country in general. And people were asking 02:41 themselves, why is this so and they postulated things 02:44 like you know economic, status is low there 02:49 and people tend to get married earlier there, 02:51 but I am wondering if there may not be some type of 02:55 rebound effect that's going on in terms of people, 03:01 who almost feel like divorces is so wrong and 03:06 Biblically we know that it is, but it's drummed 03:08 into you and you are not adequately prepared 03:12 for the institute of marriage then what ends 03:16 up happening is that, it's almost like it catches up to 03:19 you in the long run. And I think that's probably what 03:21 we're tending to see. Well God has a view of 03:25 divorce. Can you help us to understand what it is? 03:28 If we want to understand God's view of divorce, 03:29 let's go to God's word and find out exactly, 03:31 what he has to say. Okay. So let's begin in 03:34 Mathew Chapter 19 Verses 3-9, He says, The Pharisees 03:39 also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, 03:43 Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife 03:46 for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, 03:50 Have ye not read, that he which made them at the 03:54 beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 03:57 And said, FOR THIS CAUSE SHALL A MAN LEAVE FATHER 04:01 AND MOTHER AND SHALL CLEAVE TO HIS WIFE. 04:04 AND THEY TWAIN SHALL BE ONE FLESH? 04:07 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. 04:11 What therefore God hath joined together, 04:14 let not man put asunder. They say unto him, 04:18 Why did Moses then command to give a writing of 04:22 divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, 04:26 Moses because of the hardness of your hearts 04:30 suffered you to put away your wives: but from the 04:33 beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever 04:38 shall put away his wife, except it be for 04:41 fornication, and shall marry another, 04:44 committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her 04:48 which is put away doth commit adultery. 04:52 Then God's view of divorce is a strong one isn't it? 04:54 It certainly is, first of all marriages meant to be 04:58 between a man and a woman and what man puts together, 05:03 I mean what God puts together man has no right 05:06 to separate or to put it, to break a covenant, 05:10 to break a covenant. Well that's exactly what it is? 05:13 Marriage is meant to represent the covenant 05:16 between God and Man, between Christ and his bride. 05:20 And if marriage represents a covenant, which is 05:23 unbreakable you see God never will break that 05:27 covenant with us and so God does not want us to break 05:30 the symbol of that covenant, which is what 05:32 marriage is? That's the first reason that God 05:35 hates divorce, but the second reason is because 05:39 it creates such damage in the lives of human beings. 05:43 And God hates to have human beings hurt. It hurts 05:47 the husband, it hurts the wife, and it certainly hurts 05:50 the children. And will hurts others outside of that too. 05:53 There is a lot of pain involved in that divorce. 05:55 It's certainly is, not just the family. The whole 05:57 system; whether it be the extended family system, 06:01 whether it would be the church system, now we are 06:03 going to talk about the damage in all of those 06:05 systems in a little bit. Well God permits it in 06:08 case of adultery, is there any other reason that he 06:11 may permit divorce. Well that is the only sin 06:16 that God permits to bring about a divorce and even 06:21 in the context of adultery, it doesn't mean that God 06:25 is condoning or the God really wants divorce, 06:29 right, because there is a redemptive element that God 06:33 expects in the Christian world. Right, where one 06:36 does not have to divorce or he can choose to forgive. 06:39 Yeah, yes, you know unfortunately, what many 06:42 people do is; things are going so badly and they are 06:46 looking for a way out and they say, right, we should 06:49 commit adultery and if you commit adultery that's gonna 06:50 be my ticket to freedom, but that is the only sin 06:55 that God uses, that gives us the permission of 06:59 adultery, because of the broken covenant. But I want 07:02 to go to another scripture Kathy, okay, I would like to 07:04 go to 1st Corinthians Chapter 7 and read verses 5-10, 07:09 and see what God has to tell us there. It says, 07:16 And unto the married I command, yet not I, 07:20 but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her 07:24 husband: But and if she depart, let her remain 07:30 unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: 07:33 and let not the husband put away his wife. 07:37 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother 07:43 hath a wife that believeth not, and she is pleased 07:47 to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 07:52 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, 07:56 and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not 07:59 leave him. For the unbelieving husband 08:03 is sanctified by the wife and the unbelieving wife 08:06 is sanctified by the husband: else were your children 08:10 unclean: but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving 08:16 depart, let him depart, a brother or a sister is not 08:22 under bondage in such a case: but God hath 08:26 called us to peace. And so in a situation, where 08:31 you have a marriage between a Christian and a 08:33 non-Christian; first Corinthians is telling us 08:37 that if the husband or the wife wants to leave 08:41 in that situation, let them leave, which one, 08:47 does it matter? No. The believer or the unbeliever. 08:50 If the unbeliever wants to leave, not the believer, 08:54 right okay alright. If the unbeliever wants to 08:56 leave, then we have to let them leave and the Bible 09:00 says something very interesting here which some 09:03 Christian counselors have interpreted as being 09:07 another reason, why the person maybe free to be 09:09 remarry and that is, it says a brother or a sister 09:13 is not under bondage in such cases, now this is not 09:18 a sin, this is simply a marriage circumstance 09:21 between a believer and an unbeliever and so 09:25 its possible that the Lord is also using this as 09:28 a way of giving freedom to someone, who is a Christian, 09:32 right, to perhaps remarry at some point in the future. 09:36 Right, and that would soothe some hearts, 09:40 it might, because there are some people who are sincere 09:44 believers who long to be in a marriage relationship, right 09:47 and don't want to displease God, exactly right. 09:51 And they are under this burden of, is alright for 09:55 me to get remarried and again this may be one 09:58 possibility that could be looked at where God would 10:00 approve of a remarriage. Yeah, well that would be 10:04 like I said something that would really soothe hearts, 10:07 what would you recommend though, when a person 10:11 is in an abusive situation or children or wife? 10:15 You know I want to make it very, very clear 10:19 that when we are talking about God hating divorce, 10:22 he is not saying to us well, you are in a situation, 10:27 where you are married and now you just stuck 10:30 and you have no recourse, even if you are being abused 10:33 or even if your children are being damaged by this, 10:36 this is a very particular situation, where God 10:39 does not expect a wife or sometimes even a husband 10:43 to be abused either verbally or physically or sexually 10:47 abused and have to put up with the without 10:51 some recourse, in this kind of a situation the first 10:55 issue and this is legally as well as morally 10:58 is the safety of the wife and of the children. 11:01 And so in this situation, if there is a word abuse 11:05 going on; the first thing is find a safe place, right, 11:10 find a safe place for you and for your children. 11:14 God does not expect us to give our lives in that 11:16 kind of situation in order to beat up, right, 11:18 for the sake of the marriage relationship. Once you 11:23 are in a safe place, then you can begin taking a look 11:26 at what happened and what can possibly happen to 11:30 repair the situation, thinking can become more 11:33 clear. Exactly, exactly should we go to counseling, 11:36 shouldn't we go to counseling. What do I need 11:40 to do in order to make this marriage real healthy 11:43 marriage to make it work, if it can be, if it can be. 11:47 And so the point here though is abuse does not 11:52 give us license for divorce. Unfortunately God is very 11:57 clear that, that even though abuse is sinful and abuse 12:01 is very harmful, abuse does not give us reason for 12:05 divorce. But divorce is an acceptable thing, 12:15 if the one can't take it the abuse? No. Why? Well 12:23 the Bible is clear that the only case for divorce 12:27 is adultery, however there is another legal recourse 12:31 which people have and that is the recourse of legal 12:34 separation. Okay so then, we want to make it clear, 12:38 there is another option that isn't divorce, 12:40 legal separation would be that option. That's right, 12:43 and sometimes legal separation is necessary 12:46 from the point of view of economics in other words 12:50 that the children can get support from the spouse, 12:55 who left as well as from the point of view of safety, 12:59 for those two issues some times legal separation 13:02 is a necessary, but unfortunate option. 13:05 But if you are looking at God's view, divorce is not 13:09 necessarily what you must do or need to do. 13:12 That's right in that situation unless there has 13:14 been infidelity along with it, okay, there, then 13:17 of course, then a person, the person is free to 13:19 divorce and be married, if they choose, if they choose. 13:22 Okay. Well you know that makes me think of something, 13:25 when we are talking about divorce a moment ago, 13:28 I had a thought about God reserves the right 13:31 to divorce his people, if they become unfaithful. 13:35 Well you know it's very interesting, I have studied 13:38 the scripture on that subject, God is in a covenant 13:43 with us that lasts forever. God never divorces us, 13:48 never wants in the scripture do I see the God 13:51 divorced us, however, we have left him and in 13:57 us leaving him he leaves us to the consequences of our 14:02 choices, but his love for us never ends. His love for us 14:07 and his longing for us, even the story of Hosea 14:10 and his wife, who was a prostitute even after 14:14 marriage continued going out on him God 14:17 instructed him and this is an example for the kind of 14:20 healing that God wants to bring about even in 14:23 marriages, where there is danger of divorce that 14:27 just as I never left you and I told, Hosea never to 14:34 leave Gomer, but to continue pursue her, right 14:37 and to win her heart back, that is what God expects 14:41 people to do even today. Well now there are some 14:46 factors aren't they that could predict divorce? 14:49 That's right. Could you help us with that? 14:51 Yes. There are number of things that both 14:54 clinical research as well as basic research have 14:57 shown that predict divorce and why these are 15:00 important to understand is that if they predict divorce 15:03 they must also be a part of the solution for someone, 15:06 who has been divorced and who is recovering from 15:09 divorce and you might even be looking at the 15:12 possibility of remarriage. If you don't deal with 15:15 the real route of the problem, it's just going to 15:17 recycle itself again in the future someday. 15:20 So it's important for us to take a look at 15:22 these factors and the very first one is the basic 15:25 factor of all human beings and that is selfishness. 15:28 Well that's the base for everything, it is. I mean 15:30 that's our problem. It is, it is. As I looked at 15:33 people who come to me, who have been 15:35 struggling with marriage and who have divorced 15:38 that one is a basic one that I find, is it people 15:41 are selfish, they want to do what they want to do, 15:44 they don't want to give in relationship, they don't 15:47 want to change, to change, they don't want to be 15:50 flexible, it's going to be my way or no way, 15:52 and if a person has that kind of attitude, 15:55 it does not predict well for success in the marriage 15:58 at all. So the number one factor is selfishness. 16:02 Okay and then, the number two factor is what we would 16:05 call immaturity. And many of us bring into the marriage 16:12 all of our previous life experiences those things 16:16 that we learned as children from observing our parents 16:20 for example in their marriage relationship or the 16:23 issues that we have in our own lives that we have not 16:26 yet overcome, our previous histories all of that we 16:29 bring into a marriage and Jesus tells us that we 16:33 have to put away the things of a child and that's 16:35 in the context of the Chapter and Love. Yeah, 16:38 in 1st Corinthians 13, That's right, in that chapter 16:40 on self sacrificial love, tells us what the essence 16:45 of the marriage relationship is gonna be 16:47 if it's gonna be happy, but if we have not put 16:49 away the things of a child, if we have not take and 16:52 look at our issues of the past, our prejudices even 16:56 our views toward our father and our mother, 16:59 then what happens as we bring those things into 17:01 the marriage and according to Hebrews 12:15 those 17:06 are called bitter routes and they end up to filing 17:10 those people that we love and when we defile the 17:15 people that we love what that means is that 17:18 even though you may not have that issue, I am going to, 17:22 if you will create that issue for you by my expectation. 17:27 If I saw my father doing it or if I saw my mother 17:30 doing it, that's what I expect men and women 17:33 to do, and so I come into the marriage, and that 17:35 expectancy is still in me, and I am gonna created 17:38 in you. And so marriages get to file through, 17:42 what I would call factors of immaturity, things that we 17:46 have not yet overcome in our own life, and that's 17:49 why I think so many denominations today 17:53 are requiring marriage counseling prior to 17:58 the marriage ceremony, because they know that 18:02 people have to take a look at these issues 18:05 because if they don't they are gonna predict divorce 18:07 in the future. That makes me think before you go to 18:11 the next one. Okay. That makes me think of someone 18:14 that I've dealt in Bible studies, and helping 18:17 them come out of the life that they were in, and to 18:21 hopefully a more growing Christian life, and one of 18:26 the problems are always on one spouse side, they are 18:33 assuming what the other spouse is going to do 18:36 by what's always happen to them, and that's often 18:40 wrong. That's right, that's right, yeah in fact those 18:46 kinds of assumptions have no basis in reality. 18:50 And it causes an argument. Exactly right, it causes 18:54 arguments and it causes conflict, and that brings us 18:58 to the third factor that predicts divorce, and that is 19:02 how we handle conflict. Dr. Scott Stanley, 19:06 a Christian psychologist has done a lot of research 19:10 on marriages, and his research started out was 19:13 a longitudinal study starting with people before they 19:17 were married and he tracked all of these relationships 19:21 prior to marriage, during the period of courtship, 19:23 and then onto the marriage, and in a certain number of 19:26 cases into the divorce. And here are the factors 19:30 that he found; he found their ability to resolve 19:35 conflict in a healthy way was the number one factor 19:40 that predicted divorce. Really, really. That's right, 19:43 and they pointed out four sub issues of conflict 19:48 resolution that really created problems, and the 19:53 first one was that when we tend to withdraw 19:59 rather than address issues that never brings about 20:03 resolution of conflict. And typically men are the ones 20:07 that want to withdraw from conflict more than woman. 20:11 We are uncomfortable talking about issues. Women are 20:15 much more comfortable and let's talk about this, 20:18 let's gets down on the table. Yes, yes. 20:19 And we men tend to be less comfortable during that, 20:23 we wanna run, we wanna hide, we wanna sweep it 20:26 under the carpet, and when we do that then that is 20:32 the number factor in terms of conflict that's going to 20:35 predict failure of the marriage, and so now 20:40 you are talking about the issue is so, so critical, 20:44 willingness, and the ability to talk about it 20:46 knowledgeably. The second one under conflict resolution 20:50 is called escalation. Yes. There are some people, 20:54 who when you started discussion would should be 20:57 a rationale discussion of. It gets explosive. 21:01 Exactly, very quickly and when people escalate, 21:05 when it tends to explode quickly, that factor means 21:09 they are not gonna resolve conflict, it's gonna 21:11 end up in a great big fight, and is probably 21:13 gonna end up in a divorce. There are some people, 21:15 who are more explosive by temperament than others, 21:18 and so people who tend to be that way need to be very, 21:22 very careful to bring that tendency to death 21:26 or through the power of God and say Lord keep me, 21:29 and there are couple of techniques that we will talk 21:31 about in a minute. Good because I was thinking 21:33 with that next. They will help with that. The next 21:37 one is a failure to validate one and another, 21:41 but rather when we shame one an another or put one 21:44 and another down for opinions or beliefs. 21:50 People who tend to not validate or to shame or put 21:52 one and another down, when that happens in a marriage, 21:55 it just takes all of the affection, all of the love 21:58 away from the marriage. It just kills, kills the heart 22:02 of the marriage, and when the heart of the marriage 22:06 is dead, it's awfully hard to rekindle it. Revive it. 22:09 And so shaming failing to validate one and another's 22:12 feeling realities, that is a very strong predictor of 22:16 marriage or for a divorce. Yeah. And the final one 22:19 is what we call negative interpretation and that is 22:23 when my wife were to do something, if I always look 22:28 upon it negatively. That's what I was. Negative spin 22:32 then that's gonna predict divorce as well. 22:34 That's what I was talking about awhile ago. 22:36 This is what that I've observed happens here 22:38 in this particular relationship, is this always 22:42 given a negative span. And so whatever is done 22:46 is interpreted wrong, but it come from 22:51 having so many things done to this particular spouse 22:56 that she is having a very hard time thinking that 22:59 well her husband would do anything else. That's right 23:03 and what we call that is a bitter route judgment 23:06 basically what happened is this woman has judged 23:10 her parents in the certain way and the law of 23:13 judging says that when you judge. You shall be judged. 23:17 You are not only gonna be judged, but whatever you 23:19 have judged is gonna come back to you, and that's 23:21 what's happening. Her judgments of her parents 23:23 are coming right back on her and she is living them out 23:27 in her relationship with her husband, and so 23:30 the solution then is for her to go back, and first of all 23:33 repent the bitter routes towards the parents, 23:37 and to be freed of that and then she will be free 23:40 to look at her husband fresh and new for who really is. 23:43 Well can we talk about that may be later to about how 23:46 because that's you know, if we can do that sort of 23:49 thing and sometimes it doesn't happen for you, 23:52 you have to go back and do it again, and again. 23:54 That's right. When do we see the end of it? 23:58 Well we see the end of it through people, who are 24:02 willing to make the kinds of changes for example the 24:05 antidote of selfishness is dying to myself, isn't it? 24:09 Yes. It's dying to myself and letting the Lord really 24:12 have me the antidote to immaturity is going back 24:17 and lot of times when we went through this pain of 24:20 our childhood and the observations of our parents 24:25 we seem to be all alone and trying to feel our way 24:27 through, you know, our parents are meant to be representatives 24:30 of God but if they didn't do a good job of that, 24:32 we get distorted representations, and 24:35 distorted ways of living and relating. God almost 24:39 gives us marriages as a way of going back again 24:45 with him this time though not alone. Another opportunity. 24:49 Another opportunity of reprogramming and 24:52 relearning what marriage is all about. Many times we 24:56 need to go to the way God teaches us right in the Bible 25:00 about that, if we are gonna get the foundations that 25:03 we need to really have for that. And in terms of 25:07 conflict the wonderful thing about conflict resolution 25:12 is that there are some fairly standard techniques 25:16 that you use to build conflict resolution in a safe 25:21 way. You know one is to find it to plan it in 25:23 advance, you know don't try to resolve conflict 25:27 in the heat of the battle. Right. That's never gonna 25:29 work. Okay. Okay, but when you know that 25:32 there is an issue then find a safe place to go out, 25:36 to set aside a time and say well tomorrow evening 25:40 at 7o' clock, we are going to get together 25:44 and we are gonna talk about this. That makes me 25:46 think of something that I remember reading in 25:48 child guidance out of spirit prophecy. Yes. 25:51 The book was Child Guidance, and for parenting, 25:55 and this has to be learned for children, children 25:57 grow up could do this in their family, and that was 26:01 when we are upset with our children, go off and 26:07 cool off, and another would be children we will 26:12 talk about that this evening. That's right. You 26:14 know, and so you are talking about making a plan 26:17 going somewhere. And there need to be rules 26:20 by which you govern the interaction when 26:23 it does happen, and one of the rules that we recommend 26:28 is a rule of mutual respect. In other words, I am not 26:32 gonna interrupt you and I expect that you are not 26:34 gonna interrupt me when we are talking. Okay. 26:36 And many times though we get so heated that 26:39 we try to use an artificial means to help people 26:44 with that and here is often what we use. You take 26:48 an object, whether it's a pen or whether it's a 26:51 banana or whatever it may be, and long as I have 26:55 the banana its mine turn to talk. Okay. And I get to 26:59 say whatever I need to say to articulate my you know 27:03 what I need to say and then when I am done, 27:06 I am gonna ask you if you understood, what I just 27:10 said, and as long I have the banana you will then 27:14 repeat what I just said and if it is exactly what I said 27:19 then I will say okay you understood me, I really feel 27:23 understood. To clarify. And then I'll pass the banana 27:26 onto you and it's your turn and its my responsibility 27:30 then to give you undivided attention, do not say 27:34 anything, do not be planning my rebottle, but to just 27:37 listen. Well you know there is other things now that we 27:40 need to discuss, we have really got into finish 27:42 this, and we will talk about how Christians ought 27:44 to respond. And next time we are gonna talk about 27:46 your story, right. Yes. Okay, 27:48 you join us again on Thinking About Home. 27:51 Dr. Scdlacck would you pray with us. 27:53 I surely will. Father thank you for blessing us 27:56 with good marriages and with the way out. |
Revised 2014-12-17