Hi, I am Kathy
Matthews, and this is
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"Thinking about
Home." We've been discussing
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the subject of God's
love versus the world's
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love and love in
the last days with
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Jennifer Schwirzer
and some friends ours,
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John and Karen
Tsigonoff. And for the
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viewers that may
be just joining us
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in our programs. John and Karen
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are some study
students more or less
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or a couple that
we've been studying with
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for the last,
probably 7 months or so,
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and they've been
coming along in their
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understanding of God's love
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and
relationships as well as many
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other truths in
the Bible and they're
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sitting here as
learners, listeners
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and learners with
us today as they have
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been and will be a
little bit more and
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Jennifer, she is
from Connecticut.
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She's studying
to have her degree
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and she's been presenting to us
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some really good
information about
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how love has
deceived really the world
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and its passions
and we have a real
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misunderstanding
as human beings maybe,
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about what love is
all about and we have
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a real burden don't
we Jennifer for. Me too.
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Young people and
older people who doesn't
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matter how or how
old you are, what your
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age is for people
to really understand
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agape love that
God has given for us
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to know. And one
of the things that
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I think the
enemy is trying to do,
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is to keep people
from understanding
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God's love, don't
you think Jennifer?
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That's right,
that's right. But hasn't he
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been trying to
do that all along.
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He has been
trying to do it all along
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as a matter of
fact I want to look at
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some different
thinkers throughout history
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that have
affected Western thinking,
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I would call it
like the history of ideas
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and I want to
start with some of these
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thinkers and show
how their teaching
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and their
writing has affected our
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thinking today.
Really, the false concept
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of love started when we fell.
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It started with
Lucifer. Right, right.
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But we can sort of
trace of that threat
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of error
throughout history and let me
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just recap a
little bit what the basic
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difference between God's love
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and human love is?
Now that we're fallen
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we are no longer
naturally capable
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of exercising God's agape love,
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and so by nature
we love selfishly,
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we love in a
way that reaches for
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something that we
deem worthy in order to
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enrich ourselves
where as God's love.
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Now, okay,
you're gonna explain it.
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It's just self
giving and God's love
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condescends or
goes down and gives
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up itself to
enrich someone else.
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Right, as our
homes need to have in it,
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this working
example of God's love.
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That's the only hope
that there is for any
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human relationship whatsoever.
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So what I want to
do is I wanna go back
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and sort of trace
the history of ideas.
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Okay. And I want
to start with Plato.
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Plato was born
in 428 B.C. He was
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a disciple of
Socrates and he is someone
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who has affected
our thinking more than
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we realize. Right, probably so.
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Plato was a
polytheist and he worked
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with the bases
of Greek mythology.
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Now, I want you to
explain Polytheist.
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Many Gods, in
another words he didn't
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believe in one God,
he believed in many Gods.
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Okay. And of
course those were the Gods
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of Greek mythology. Okay. And he
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promoted the idea,
he was probably one
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of the first great
thinkers of the world
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to clearly
articulate the idea of Eros,
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and he promoted it
as something that would
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save man. Eros
meaning? Eros meaning
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selfish love.
Selfish love. I wanna clarify
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this little bit
here. We talked about Eros
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before as being
loved that was based on
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romance. Yes. Plato came up with
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a different kind
of Eros because he
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recognized that if
people clung to the
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typical sensual or earthly Eros
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that they would be
lost that they would
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never grow, that
they would never you know
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develop as human being. Right,
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so he recognized
that. So he recognized
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that man was in a lost condition
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that he needed to saved, but he
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believed that if
Eros was transformed,
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it would still be Eros
but if those affections
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that were
typically on earthly things
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and on sensual
things if those affections
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were rerouted and
placed upon divine
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things that man
could essentially save
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himself, so Plato
had that much right
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that man was in a
lost condition and that
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he needed to be
saved, but what he had
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wronged was the
way man was saved.
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Right. Plato even
would have called it
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a means of self salvation. Yes.
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And as I said, he
believed that if we
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attach our
affections to divine things
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that it will, it will
result in lifting us up
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to God. Works. That's works,
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that the essence of
works. I want to share
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a couple of
texts as we along that
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give the opposite
view point from the Bible.
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Bible tells us that
while we were still helpless
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Christ died for the
ungodly, so the love
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that is focused on
especially in the New
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Testament book
throughout the Bible.
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It's the love of
Christ as He came down
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to save humanity
rather than the love of
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man as he reaches
up for God. Now did
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you say where that was? That was
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in Roman chapter
5, verse 6, and then
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in First John
chapter 4 verse 10,
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we have this verse,
it says, And this is
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love, okay, we're
gonna get a definition
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of love here. Not
that we loved God,
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but that he loved
us. I'm sorry Plato
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we are not saved
by man's love for God
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we are saved by
God's love for man.
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Can you see the
difference? Yes. Yes,
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so and this is love,
not that we love God,
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but that he loved
us, and sent his Son
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to be the
propitiation or the sacrifice
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to be the
propitiation or the sacrifice
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for our sin. Alright
First John 4:19 says,
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We love because he
first loved us. Yes.
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We don't love
because we need to be saved
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and if we can
crank up enough affection
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and enough Eros
and enough aberration
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and adoration for
God we'll be lifted up
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by the power of our
own emotions that is
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not how we are
saved. We are saved
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by God's grace and
we love Him only because
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He first loved us.
Right. So can you see
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the essential difference between
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what Plato was
promoting and what the
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Bible teaches. Now I
want to go into a few
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of the Greek
myths because we can get
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some really
interesting revolutions about
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the way we think in
Western society today
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from looking at
these myths. For one thing,
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Plato promoted what
I would call the mind,
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body, dichotomy
and that is the idea
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that the mind and
body were separate,
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that the mind is
spirit or the soul,
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what might be another
way of saying the mind.
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The soul is spirit
and the body is flesh.
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Right. That the
mind is good and the body
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is evil. Now, that
is not a Christian idea,
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but let me tell
you where it came from.
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One of the Gods, the
father of the God Zeus
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had a son name Dionysus and Zeus
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left Dionysus in
the palace one day.
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He said I'm leaving
son and if the enemy
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Titans come along,
the Titans were these
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ugly monsters,
if they come along
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and they try to
entice you to come out
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of the palace, don't
go, stay in the palace.
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So little boy
said, sure dad and then
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the Titans came
along and they said,
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we have some toys
and little boy came out
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of the palace and
Titans laid him up.
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Zeus came home and he
saw what had happened?
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He saw the
monsters there and he threw
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lightning both at
them and they turned ashes
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and according to
the legend out of those
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ashes came the human
race. Zeus is the father
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of the Gods made
human beings out of those
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ashes. Now in the
ashes, where number one
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the enemy Titans,
the evil Titans and that
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was the flesh part
of man and Dionysus
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which was the
divine part of man so these
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basic teaching that
within each one of us
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although we have this evil body,
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there is part of
God left in us and that
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is not a
Biblical teaching. Right.
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Alright, and I
wanna look at a text that
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counteracts that
thought. In First
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Thessalonians chapter
4 verse 16, it's says,
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this is taking
about the resurrection,
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because the idea
that upon death man's
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spirit ascends
to heaven or hell,
00:08:50.62\00:08:52.53
his reward and his
body remains in the grave.
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It's not a biblical
idea but that legend
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is where we get that
idea from. Oh! You see.
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So the Bible doesn't teach that,
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the Bible teaches
that man goes into a
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sleep in the grave,
yes, and that when Christ
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comes again those
that are asleep in the
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grave will be
resurrected mind and
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body together
because man is a holistic
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being. Yes.
Alright, First Thessalonians
00:09:17.87\00:09:20.30
chapter 4 verse 16,
"For the Lord himself
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shall descend from
heaven with a shout,
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with the voice of the archangel,
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and with the
trumpet of God: and the dead
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in Christ shall
rise firstand they which
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are alive and
remain will be caught up
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together with
them to meet the Lord
00:09:35.18\00:09:36.79
in the air." Yes.
So there will be people
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that are send
straight to heaven we call
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it translations
sometimes but they
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will be those who
are alive at the second
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coming of Jesus.
Right. That is the biblical
00:09:46.06\00:09:47.80
teaching on the destiny of man.
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This idea of the
mind-body dichotomy
00:09:50.74\00:09:52.65
is not a biblical
idea but it's a very common
00:09:52.66\00:09:55.31
idea in world
religions and in philosophies
00:09:55.32\00:09:58.53
such as the philosophy of Plato.
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Do you think it
only began with him?
00:10:00.33\00:10:02.18
I don't think it
began with him but I think
00:10:02.80\00:10:04.65
probably the most
wide spread teaching.
00:10:04.66\00:10:08.14
Making it most
popular promoting that idea.
00:10:08.15\00:10:10.19
He did a lot for
that idea but I think just
00:10:10.20\00:10:13.18
a basic
misconception that people always
00:10:13.19\00:10:15.58
find some form
out, yes, you know,
00:10:15.59\00:10:17.19
pretty much every
world religion teaches that.
00:10:17.20\00:10:20.00
Okay, another
Greek myth that we hear
00:10:20.59\00:10:22.79
echos of today. This
is gonna be a little bit
00:10:22.80\00:10:25.39
interesting and
it's really put on your
00:10:25.40\00:10:27.10
thinking cap and
focus while I share this.
00:10:27.11\00:10:29.12
Okay. This is the
myth. Can't let my
00:10:29.13\00:10:31.79
mind wonder? Now
you can't let your
00:10:31.80\00:10:32.80
mind wonder,
Kathy? She is tired.
00:10:32.81\00:10:35.66
She has been very busy.
00:10:35.67\00:10:36.90
But this is the
myth of Eros and psyche.
00:10:36.91\00:10:39.76
Eros is the son of
Venus and I don't know
00:10:41.00\00:10:43.23
if you are
familiar with this but Venus
00:10:43.24\00:10:44.68
was the love
Goddess according to Greek
00:10:44.69\00:10:46.11
mythology. And Eros was her son
00:10:46.12\00:10:48.61
and that is the
word that the Greek woed
00:10:48.62\00:10:51.48
Eros comes from. He was the son
00:10:51.49\00:10:53.36
of the Love
Goddess and so he sort of
00:10:53.37\00:10:55.97
personified romance
and that type of love.
00:10:55.98\00:11:00.48
Venus was very jealous of being
00:11:02.87\00:11:04.93
name a Psyche and
of course Psyche means
00:11:04.94\00:11:07.65
the soul. Right.
Okay, she was very jealous
00:11:07.66\00:11:11.05
of psyche who was a immortal,
00:11:11.06\00:11:13.50
was so beautiful
that men would worship her
00:11:13.51\00:11:17.71
and so Venus
being an all beautiful
00:11:18.28\00:11:19.96
Goddess wanted to
put an end to this
00:11:19.97\00:11:22.43
and she set her son
Eros to cast a spell on
00:11:22.44\00:11:25.07
Psyche, so that psyche
would fall in love with
00:11:25.08\00:11:28.66
an ugly man. Eros
went to cast a spell
00:11:28.67\00:11:31.90
and he ended up
falling in love with her.
00:11:31.91\00:11:33.48
Now get this part,
this is amazing to me.
00:11:33.49\00:11:35.64
Through the union
of the Eros and Psyche,
00:11:37.81\00:11:39.87
you know they are
married and through
00:11:40.59\00:11:42.01
that union
Psyche becomes immortal,
00:11:42.02\00:11:44.51
in another words I
think the underlying
00:11:44.52\00:11:46.88
message here is that the soul
00:11:46.89\00:11:49.00
is immortalized
through Eros love.
00:11:49.54\00:11:52.36
You see what I'm saying? That's
00:11:53.53\00:11:54.95
interesting. Isn't
that interesting? Alright,
00:11:54.96\00:11:57.09
let me share a text
that helps us to see
00:11:57.10\00:11:59.89
beyond that
fallacy. We're told to,
00:11:59.90\00:12:02.90
you are trying to
prove it as a fallacy.
00:12:02.91\00:12:05.41
Oh, I am that's
why I brought it up.
00:12:05.42\00:12:07.03
Jesus "Abolish
death and brought life and
00:12:08.16\00:12:11.57
immortality to
light through the gospel."
00:12:11.58\00:12:15.75
We are not made immortal through
00:12:16.38\00:12:20.31
anything within us,
through the amount of
00:12:20.32\00:12:23.35
love we have, we
are not made immortal
00:12:23.36\00:12:25.93
through our Eros, our
love for someone else.
00:12:25.94\00:12:28.31
Jesus brought life
and immortality to light
00:12:28.84\00:12:31.76
through the
gospel. Right. Alright,
00:12:31.77\00:12:33.86
another text is,
First Timothy, did I say
00:12:33.87\00:12:36.03
the text for that
one? Second Timothy chapter
00:12:36.04\00:12:38.33
1 verse 10,
this is the last one.
00:12:38.34\00:12:39.90
This next one is
First Timothy chapter 6
00:12:39.91\00:12:42.83
verse 16 and it
says that God alone
00:12:42.84\00:12:45.91
possesses immortality.
He gives immortality
00:12:46.38\00:12:49.97
to us as a free
gift. Amen. We have the
00:12:49.98\00:12:52.75
option of refusing
it, saying I don't want
00:12:52.76\00:12:55.63
your free gift, I
don't want your forgiveness,
00:12:55.64\00:12:58.20
I don't want your
love, we can say that
00:12:58.21\00:13:00.27
but there is
nothing we can do to earn
00:13:01.42\00:13:04.07
that gift. That's
right. Yes. Alright,
00:13:04.08\00:13:06.75
another Greek
actually this is a Roman myth.
00:13:06.76\00:13:10.85
Okay. The Greek
pantheon translated
00:13:11.52\00:13:13.68
over in to
Roman mythology and so
00:13:13.69\00:13:17.92
Eros is Roman
counterpart was Cupid.
00:13:18.48\00:13:20.98
Now you remember Cupid, right.
00:13:20.99\00:13:22.33
You've heard cupid. Oh, yeah.
00:13:22.34\00:13:23.70
And what do you usually seeing
00:13:23.71\00:13:24.82
on a valentine
day. Valentine card.
00:13:24.83\00:13:26.82
And he is a little
cute, little chubby
00:13:26.83\00:13:28.29
check cherub guy
who look like he got to
00:13:28.30\00:13:30.87
put on his clothes
in the morning and.
00:13:30.88\00:13:32.15
Oh, yeah, make him
look like a little angel.
00:13:32.16\00:13:33.54
Cupid got little
bow and arrow, but in
00:13:33.55\00:13:34.95
fact this cupid
was a full grown man
00:13:34.96\00:13:38.65
in Roman
mythology. Right. And it was
00:13:38.66\00:13:41.38
believed that when
cupid struck someone
00:13:41.39\00:13:44.08
with an arrow that
person had no choice
00:13:44.09\00:13:47.20
but to fall in
love. So their choice was
00:13:47.91\00:13:50.18
removed. So their
choice was removed.
00:13:50.19\00:13:52.09
And this is the
idea that Cupid was a God
00:13:52.10\00:13:55.54
and so how could
a mere mortal resist
00:13:56.16\00:13:58.81
the will of a
God who wanted him to
00:13:58.82\00:14:01.22
fall in love with
someone else and how
00:14:01.23\00:14:03.84
I think of when I
realize that I said,
00:14:03.85\00:14:06.36
how often people
who feel a certain
00:14:06.37\00:14:09.27
chemistry with another person
00:14:09.28\00:14:10.89
or an attraction
to another person feel
00:14:10.90\00:14:13.19
like it's a call
from God that their
00:14:13.20\00:14:15.91
feelings are
just, absolute proof
00:14:15.92\00:14:18.51
that God, that is
some divine immortal,
00:14:18.52\00:14:22.07
all powerful
element, right, forcing them
00:14:22.08\00:14:25.16
as it were to make a
choice to fall in love
00:14:25.17\00:14:28.01
with that person,
but I want to really
00:14:28.02\00:14:29.98
underscore this point
that love is a choice.
00:14:29.99\00:14:33.28
Amen. And you
can have attractions
00:14:33.29\00:14:35.44
and it will happen,
you know my 13 year old
00:14:35.45\00:14:39.41
daughter was
telling me about a guy,
00:14:39.42\00:14:40.86
she thought was
kind of cute and I was
00:14:40.87\00:14:42.58
kind of saying
you know why are you,
00:14:42.59\00:14:45.25
you know you are
so too young for this
00:14:45.26\00:14:46.86
kind of thing.
She has looked to me
00:14:46.87\00:14:47.89
and she is not into boys at all.
00:14:47.90\00:14:49.58
But she looked
to me and she said,
00:14:49.59\00:14:50.78
mom, it's just
normal, you know and it's true
00:14:50.79\00:14:54.59
it is normal for
people to feel attraction for
00:14:54.60\00:14:57.27
other people. There is chemistry
00:14:57.28\00:14:58.80
and we are beings
that are very complex
00:14:58.81\00:15:00.93
and we at times feel
an attraction to another
00:15:00.94\00:15:03.17
person but it is
not a call from God,
00:15:03.18\00:15:05.36
it is not divinity
speaking, it is just
00:15:05.37\00:15:07.56
chemistry. And
while I don't want to get
00:15:07.57\00:15:09.94
in too far into this
thought which is maybe
00:15:09.95\00:15:12.57
a little off of
what you're saying
00:15:12.58\00:15:13.70
and I don't want
you to lose what you're
00:15:13.71\00:15:14.70
saying. Okay. But because of sin
00:15:14.71\00:15:18.77
and degeneration,
this chemistry happens
00:15:18.78\00:15:21.96
at a younger age,
that's right, then it
00:15:21.97\00:15:23.65
originally happened. I
agree with you. Because
00:15:23.66\00:15:26.08
of the age and a
life span of mankind.
00:15:26.09\00:15:30.36
And Kathy, I don't have any,
00:15:30.37\00:15:31.73
absolutely, I don't
want to go into that.
00:15:31.74\00:15:32.75
No, that's a good
point I don't have any
00:15:32.76\00:15:34.45
documentation on
this but I have read
00:15:34.46\00:15:36.66
that the mean age
of menses in girls
00:15:36.67\00:15:39.49
has gone down
from like 18 years old
00:15:39.50\00:15:42.92
and the 1800 to
today, it's something like a
00:15:42.93\00:15:45.06
11 and I think it's
partially due to diet,
00:15:45.07\00:15:48.02
partially due to
either various factors
00:15:48.03\00:15:50.79
that either degeneration of
00:15:50.80\00:15:52.25
the race.
Degeneration of our race. Yes,
00:15:52.26\00:15:53.79
that the people to
mature more quickly
00:15:53.80\00:15:55.68
far before their
judgment faculties
00:15:55.69\00:15:58.22
are developed. Any maturity is
00:15:58.23\00:15:59.66
developed, yeah.
Yes, and it's frightening,
00:15:59.67\00:16:01.45
isn't it? It is
frightening especially
00:16:01.46\00:16:02.81
when you have
children. Yes, but to along
00:16:02.82\00:16:05.60
with that thought
or rather to counteract
00:16:05.61\00:16:07.33
that thought that this chemistry
00:16:07.34\00:16:09.34
and attraction that
is a part of being human
00:16:09.35\00:16:11.63
that we feel
sometimes for other people
00:16:11.64\00:16:13.44
is a call from God.
I want to read to you
00:16:13.45\00:16:15.91
what the scripture
is saying about how
00:16:15.92\00:16:17.65
love is. This is
from Revelation chapter 3
00:16:17.66\00:16:20.19
verse 20. Okay. And
this is taking about
00:16:20.20\00:16:22.56
God and his posture
of love toward the church
00:16:22.57\00:16:26.19
and human race
and each one of us
00:16:26.20\00:16:28.42
individuals and he
says, behold I stand
00:16:28.43\00:16:31.10
at the door and
knock, if anyone hears
00:16:31.11\00:16:33.87
my voice I will come
in to him and will dine
00:16:33.88\00:16:36.69
with him and he
with me, in other words
00:16:36.70\00:16:38.63
if even God can't
force us to love him.
00:16:39.32\00:16:42.36
If even God leaves
the choice of whether
00:16:43.47\00:16:45.75
to love him or
not up to us, how much
00:16:45.76\00:16:48.12
more with the
choice be up to us to love
00:16:48.13\00:16:49.75
another human
being. Right. So I just
00:16:49.76\00:16:52.52
I really want to
get that across to young
00:16:52.53\00:16:53.90
people. Okay. You
have a choice and love
00:16:53.91\00:16:55.73
is always a
choice and these feelings
00:16:55.74\00:16:58.58
and so forth
should never force us
00:16:58.59\00:17:01.04
into a
relationship. Now you've talked
00:17:01.05\00:17:03.90
about, have you
talked about the contrast
00:17:03.91\00:17:05.97
of love is not
desire? Do you want to go
00:17:05.98\00:17:07.53
into that
anymore? Well, that's those
00:17:07.54\00:17:09.74
with the three parts that I just
00:17:09.75\00:17:11.64
went through
actually. Which you just want
00:17:11.65\00:17:12.62
to go, okay, then you've
00:17:12.63\00:17:13.60
discussed that
enough. Love is not
00:17:13.66\00:17:14.63
based on desire.
Love is a principle.
00:17:14.64\00:17:16.68
Okay. Love is not provoked,
00:17:16.69\00:17:18.24
okay, that's in
First Corinthians 13,
00:17:18.25\00:17:19.98
typically we
thinking of love is some
00:17:19.99\00:17:22.37
translation say, love
is not easily provoked
00:17:22.38\00:17:24.89
but it's really love is
00:17:24.90\00:17:25.87
not provoked,
typically we think you know
00:17:25.88\00:17:27.90
we see a mother and her children
00:17:27.91\00:17:29.05
are screaming and
love is not provoked
00:17:29.06\00:17:31.15
she is about to
smack them or something,
00:17:31.16\00:17:33.25
but I don't think
that's what that verse
00:17:33.26\00:17:35.63
is saying, I think
it's saying that there is
00:17:35.64\00:17:37.24
nothing in the
object of love to provoke
00:17:37.25\00:17:39.76
me to love it.
Love comes from me
00:17:39.77\00:17:42.92
or if I was God it
would come from me,
00:17:43.69\00:17:46.14
if I love anyone
is because God puts
00:17:46.74\00:17:48.69
it in me. But there
is nothing in the object
00:17:48.70\00:17:50.90
of my love that
provokes me to love it.
00:17:50.91\00:17:53.39
Oh! I see. God
loves. That is a little
00:17:53.40\00:17:54.83
different concept.
God's loves because
00:17:54.84\00:17:58.15
He is love, yes, His
character. It is love.
00:17:58.16\00:18:01.38
God does not love
because of anything
00:18:01.39\00:18:02.94
in us. God loves
because He is love,
00:18:02.95\00:18:06.12
it's a self
sufficient love. It doesn't need
00:18:06.13\00:18:09.42
to be provoked, so
that what I think that's
00:18:09.43\00:18:11.24
coming from. So is
this false concept of love
00:18:11.25\00:18:13.53
you think affected
the Christian church.
00:18:13.54\00:18:15.29
I do, I do in a profound
00:18:15.30\00:18:17.50
way. I do too. And
as a matter of fact
00:18:18.13\00:18:20.23
I want to talk a little
about how that originally
00:18:20.24\00:18:23.76
came about because
you know the Christian
00:18:23.77\00:18:26.08
church began with
agape because Jesus
00:18:26.09\00:18:28.92
is the foundation of
Christian church. Amen.
00:18:28.93\00:18:31.07
And He lived God's
love. There was not
00:18:31.53\00:18:33.95
a moment of His
life, there wasn't just
00:18:33.96\00:18:35.69
totally consumed
with the love of God.
00:18:35.70\00:18:37.93
Alright. He was just constantly
00:18:37.94\00:18:39.71
demonstrating
agape to everyone around
00:18:39.72\00:18:42.30
to Him. And many
times as what provoked
00:18:42.31\00:18:44.93
the anger on
others, the animosity and
00:18:45.59\00:18:46.89
prosecution and
your right, right. And
00:18:46.90\00:18:48.27
He ended up nailed to the cross,
00:18:48.28\00:18:49.74
and then the Christian church.
00:18:50.34\00:18:51.57
The Infant
Christian Church understood
00:18:51.58\00:18:54.23
something of God's
love and they lived
00:18:54.24\00:18:56.76
God's love. They
didn't have anything
00:18:56.77\00:18:58.44
to themselves
they shared all things
00:18:58.45\00:18:59.72
in common they
gave to one another.
00:18:59.73\00:19:01.45
They met together
constantly for prayer
00:19:01.46\00:19:03.62
and they shared,
preached the gospel
00:19:03.63\00:19:06.15
boldly and they
were persecuted for three
00:19:06.16\00:19:10.14
centuries. Yes. So I have come
00:19:10.15\00:19:12.53
to conclusion,
I'm gonna document
00:19:12.54\00:19:14.48
this further on down the line
00:19:14.49\00:19:16.10
but I have come to
the conclusion that
00:19:16.36\00:19:17.50
whenever there is
sure agape in the life
00:19:17.51\00:19:19.59
of a believer there
is always prosecution.
00:19:19.60\00:19:22.03
Alright. Alright,
well, something kind of
00:19:22.86\00:19:23.83
tragic happened
about three centuries
00:19:23.84\00:19:26.17
after the beginning
of the Christian church,
00:19:26.78\00:19:28.52
of course we know
that Constantine who is
00:19:29.24\00:19:32.21
an Emperor, the
Emperor of Rome became
00:19:32.22\00:19:36.09
a Christian, he had a
superficial conversion.
00:19:36.10\00:19:38.39
Alright. And it led
him to lend imperial
00:19:38.40\00:19:41.72
support to the
church in other words,
00:19:41.73\00:19:43.72
there was a
mingling of church and state
00:19:43.73\00:19:45.63
after that. He put
some power into that.
00:19:45.64\00:19:48.38
That's right, so he
gave the church state
00:19:48.39\00:19:50.97
power and after
that point compromise
00:19:50.98\00:19:54.61
began to take
place in Christian church
00:19:54.62\00:19:56.70
and there was a
mingling between pure
00:19:56.71\00:19:58.82
Christianity and paganism.
00:19:58.83\00:20:00.88
Right. And we
were plunged basically
00:20:01.06\00:20:03.88
into the dark ages for about a
00:20:03.89\00:20:05.51
thousand years after that. Yes.
00:20:05.52\00:20:07.05
But typically we
think of the compromise
00:20:07.06\00:20:09.62
of the Christian
churches being in the
00:20:09.63\00:20:11.79
arena of
government and you know church
00:20:11.80\00:20:14.45
in state and the arena
of practices and worship
00:20:14.46\00:20:17.28
practices and
these types of things
00:20:17.29\00:20:18.60
but I want to say
today that one of the
00:20:18.61\00:20:21.47
things that was compromised was
00:20:21.48\00:20:24.04
the concept of
love. The church was no
00:20:24.05\00:20:26.62
longer preaching and no
longer living pure agape.
00:20:26.63\00:20:30.26
There was an amalgamation or a
00:20:30.27\00:20:32.53
combining of agape
and Eros that took place
00:20:32.54\00:20:36.22
after the third
century, and I want
00:20:36.23\00:20:38.44
to look at
quotation from the book
00:20:38.45\00:20:42.99
great controversy
in regards to this.
00:20:43.00\00:20:45.16
"Satan therefore
laid his plans to war more
00:20:45.17\00:20:49.49
successfully against
the government of God
00:20:49.50\00:20:51.61
by planting his banner
in the Christian church,"
00:20:51.62\00:20:55.09
I need to just back
up a little bit here
00:20:55.10\00:20:56.94
and I need to
tell you that all that
00:20:56.95\00:20:59.02
prosecution was an
attempt on the part of
00:20:59.03\00:21:01.14
the devil to snuff
out the Christian church
00:21:01.15\00:21:03.39
and after three
century of that the devil
00:21:03.40\00:21:05.34
realized this is
getting anywhere because
00:21:05.35\00:21:07.90
the more he
prosecuted the more Christians,
00:21:07.91\00:21:10.14
more people were
converted. Right.
00:21:10.15\00:21:11.85
So truly in himself
was a church father said,
00:21:11.86\00:21:14.02
the blood of the
martyrs is seed every time
00:21:14.03\00:21:16.80
they martyr
someone there will be
00:21:16.81\00:21:18.31
more converts so,
after three century
00:21:18.32\00:21:21.03
of that the devil realized.
00:21:21.04\00:21:22.05
I am not getting
anywhere I need to try
00:21:22.06\00:21:24.04
different tactic
and so in that context
00:21:24.05\00:21:26.75
we are told Satan
therefore laid his plans
00:21:26.76\00:21:28.62
to war more successfully against
00:21:28.63\00:21:30.38
the government of God
by planting his banner
00:21:30.39\00:21:32.70
in the Christian
church. Most of the
00:21:32.71\00:21:35.00
Christians consented
to lower their standard,
00:21:35.01\00:21:38.69
and a union was formed between
00:21:38.70\00:21:40.88
Christianity and paganism."
00:21:40.89\00:21:43.02
That's from the
great controversy.
00:21:43.03\00:21:45.12
And few really understand that
00:21:45.13\00:21:46.57
in our world
today. That's right,
00:21:46.58\00:21:48.61
and I believe one
of the primary areas in
00:21:48.62\00:21:51.28
which this
compromise was forged,
00:21:51.29\00:21:53.93
it's in the area of love.
00:21:53.94\00:21:55.45
The Christian
church lost its hold
00:21:55.46\00:21:58.75
on the pure concept
of God's agape love,
00:21:58.76\00:22:02.30
and so we had a
darkness for about a millennium.
00:22:02.31\00:22:05.17
Yes. Until the
reformation and then
00:22:05.18\00:22:07.78
Martin Luther and
the other reformers
00:22:07.79\00:22:10.62
uncovered those
buried truths of the gospel
00:22:10.63\00:22:13.26
and began to preach
righteousness by faith,
00:22:13.27\00:22:16.30
salvation by grace
alone and it's really
00:22:16.31\00:22:19.67
cutting edge at
that time and literally
00:22:19.68\00:22:22.46
cutting edge to
them because many of them
00:22:22.47\00:22:23.69
headed for us that
I read statement by
00:22:23.70\00:22:26.86
theologian that
said, the very same thing
00:22:26.87\00:22:30.47
that made him
meaning Martin Luther,
00:22:30.48\00:22:32.73
a reformer in the
matter of justification,
00:22:32.74\00:22:35.76
made him also
the reformer in the
00:22:35.77\00:22:36.90
Christian idea
of love, so we think
00:22:36.91\00:22:40.14
of Martin Luther in
terms of justification
00:22:40.15\00:22:41.87
by faith and he
was you know rebuking
00:22:41.88\00:22:44.18
the idea of
salvation by works and that's
00:22:44.19\00:22:46.58
true but he was
also a reformer in
00:22:46.59\00:22:48.85
the idea of love,
00:22:48.86\00:22:49.99
the Christian idea of love.
00:22:50.00\00:22:51.43
Well, he was a monk
who finally married.
00:22:51.44\00:22:53.66
That's right.
True. And that was.
00:22:53.67\00:22:55.98
I know. As a
matter of fact I heard he
00:22:55.99\00:22:58.15
broke into a
place where you know
00:22:58.16\00:23:01.19
a convent and helped nuns
00:23:01.20\00:23:03.85
escaped and
married them off. Yeah,
00:23:03.86\00:23:05.60
they all married
in different places.
00:23:05.61\00:23:07.42
Now during the
reformation what was,
00:23:07.43\00:23:10.68
what was the church
and the world's response
00:23:10.69\00:23:13.17
to Martin Luther's
preaching agape and
00:23:13.18\00:23:14.97
preaching the true
gospel? What happened?
00:23:14.98\00:23:17.75
Well, they became enlightened.
00:23:17.76\00:23:18.92
They became not
the church though.
00:23:18.93\00:23:20.31
What was their
response? Prosecution.
00:23:20.32\00:23:23.81
Oh! Obviously. Okay.
00:23:23.82\00:23:25.28
You mean the
response of the world to this.
00:23:25.29\00:23:27.14
That's right. Yes, sometimes.
00:23:27.15\00:23:28.38
There was
prosecution against so,
00:23:28.39\00:23:29.69
again I'm gonna say that,
00:23:29.70\00:23:31.14
that every time
agape is lived and taught
00:23:31.15\00:23:33.54
and embodied.
There's always prosecution
00:23:33.55\00:23:36.13
and I believe we,
since the reformation
00:23:36.14\00:23:39.34
have had a gradual compromise,
00:23:39.35\00:23:41.33
the same compromise
between Eros and agape
00:23:41.34\00:23:44.65
to where at least in our country
00:23:44.66\00:23:47.32
I don't think
agape is fully impressed
00:23:47.33\00:23:51.20
and understand by
most Christians and
00:23:51.21\00:23:54.53
I make trouble for that.
00:23:54.54\00:23:55.75
I know everybody
know something about God's
00:23:55.76\00:23:57.72
love but every time
there was true agape,
00:23:57.73\00:24:01.86
there was always
prosecution we do not
00:24:01.87\00:24:03.68
really have prosecution in the
00:24:03.69\00:24:05.26
United States
today. Yes, I see that.
00:24:05.27\00:24:07.09
There are some
places in the world that
00:24:07.10\00:24:09.00
where Christians are persecuted.
00:24:09.01\00:24:10.90
And there maybe
individuals though here
00:24:10.91\00:24:12.42
and there but we
don't see it as a collective
00:24:12.43\00:24:14.90
movement of any
kind. Definitely not in
00:24:14.91\00:24:16.64
the United States,
I don't see it. Right.
00:24:16.65\00:24:18.87
And so I have to
come with the conclusion
00:24:18.88\00:24:20.90
that we,
because we are not being
00:24:20.91\00:24:22.71
prosecute must not
really understand and
00:24:22.72\00:24:25.52
must not really live
agape and God wants to
00:24:25.53\00:24:29.91
bring us back to
understanding of it to
00:24:29.92\00:24:32.57
where we can be the
example to the world
00:24:32.58\00:24:34.51
that we need to be, yes,
00:24:34.52\00:24:35.54
that will bring on
prosecution but bring
00:24:35.55\00:24:37.55
it on if you will
prepare people for the
00:24:37.56\00:24:39.45
coming of Jesus. Amen.
00:24:39.46\00:24:40.87
So we know that the
counterfeit is still
00:24:40.88\00:24:42.73
alive and well
today. It's alive and well
00:24:42.74\00:24:45.37
and I do want to
talk about one of the
00:24:45.38\00:24:47.48
chief avenues through
which that counterfeit
00:24:47.49\00:24:49.53
is kept alive
with the media. Okay,
00:24:49.54\00:24:51.93
can we get through
that now before the end?
00:24:51.94\00:24:53.61
We can get through
this part of it. Okay,
00:24:53.62\00:24:55.20
the media, I will
put it this word say
00:24:55.21\00:24:58.58
Hollywood doesn't do agape,
00:24:58.59\00:25:00.43
Hollywood does
Eros. Yes. Hollywood,
00:25:00.44\00:25:02.91
would not put one
dime into promoting agape
00:25:02.92\00:25:05.94
and so I pretty much boycott the
00:25:05.95\00:25:09.13
movie industry. Yes,
I am not going to say
00:25:09.14\00:25:11.52
I never watch a
movie but I pretty bore,
00:25:11.53\00:25:13.46
I don't want to
put my dollars in that
00:25:13.47\00:25:15.23
part because
they don't do agape,
00:25:15.24\00:25:17.08
they do Eros and
one of the best example
00:25:17.09\00:25:20.24
of that the movie the "Titanic"
00:25:20.25\00:25:21.85
which is a movie that
seems to be about love.
00:25:21.86\00:25:26.05
Taken the world nice storm.
00:25:26.06\00:25:27.38
And it took the world by storm,
00:25:27.39\00:25:28.36
let me just give you a
few facts on that. Okay,
00:25:28.37\00:25:29.94
it had a $200
million budget that was
00:25:29.95\00:25:32.18
never done
before, never that high of
00:25:32.19\00:25:34.16
budget. It has
grossed over 2 billion.
00:25:34.17\00:25:37.67
It got awards
for the best picture,
00:25:37.68\00:25:41.08
best director, best actress,
00:25:41.09\00:25:43.41
best supporting
actress, best cinematography,
00:25:43.42\00:25:46.23
best make-up,
best visual effects,
00:25:46.24\00:25:48.28
best sound effects editing.
00:25:48.31\00:25:50.33
It also won four
golden global awards etc,
00:25:50.34\00:25:55.56
etc, etc, etc, on down the line.
00:25:55.57\00:25:57.13
It was blockbuster success, why,
00:25:57.14\00:26:00.79
because it seem
to promote a divine,
00:26:00.80\00:26:03.32
I think at least
partly because it seemed to
00:26:03.33\00:26:05.24
promote a
divine, a sort of love,
00:26:05.25\00:26:08.22
an idealistic kind
of love but it was not
00:26:08.23\00:26:11.12
God's agape love
and I would like to be
00:26:11.13\00:26:15.47
able to make
that distinction but
00:26:15.48\00:26:17.20
I think we might
have to go into the
00:26:17.21\00:26:18.28
next program in
order to do justice.
00:26:18.29\00:26:20.80
Well, yeah, I
think you are right
00:26:20.81\00:26:22.99
because I don't
think you're gonna
00:26:23.00\00:26:24.23
be able to get into it
everything you want to,
00:26:24.24\00:26:26.33
to be able to make
the viewers really,
00:26:26.34\00:26:28.09
really understand
what you are getting.
00:26:28.10\00:26:29.96
Yeah, I really understand.
00:26:29.97\00:26:31.07
And I don't know who you want to
00:26:31.08\00:26:33.20
take right now
but maybe you keep
00:26:33.21\00:26:36.11
just recap a little bit.
00:26:36.12\00:26:37.09
I will just
recap a little bit and
00:26:37.10\00:26:38.07
I will say that
throughout history
00:26:38.08\00:26:39.40
there always been
agents and agencies
00:26:39.41\00:26:42.55
through which the
devil has promoted
00:26:42.56\00:26:44.38
his Eros gospel and he is never
00:26:44.39\00:26:47.90
at a loss to
find people who will
00:26:47.91\00:26:51.07
try to plant the
knowledge of God's agape
00:26:51.08\00:26:55.14
love with this
counterfeit Eros and
00:26:55.15\00:26:58.49
today he is doing it through,
00:26:58.50\00:27:00.78
largely through the media.
00:27:00.79\00:27:02.63
Don't you see
that, don't you see
00:27:02.64\00:27:04.94
that John and
Karen and I think for
00:27:04.95\00:27:07.71
our children seek,
parents need to guard
00:27:07.72\00:27:09.81
them from the
messages that are just
00:27:09.82\00:27:11.28
pouring out of the
television screens.
00:27:11.29\00:27:12.60
That's right. Pouring out of the
00:27:12.61\00:27:13.80
movie theaters. We need to be
00:27:13.81\00:27:15.27
very selective
and very regarded,
00:27:15.28\00:27:17.37
in regards to what we allow
00:27:17.38\00:27:19.01
our children to be subjected to.
00:27:19.02\00:27:20.78
Not just what we say before
00:27:20.79\00:27:21.87
we are listening to. Alright,
00:27:21.88\00:27:23.35
we in just the last few months
00:27:23.36\00:27:25.90
have rid
ourselves of a lot of music,
00:27:25.91\00:27:28.21
$100 worth of music, and we try
00:27:28.22\00:27:32.12
to only watch
about the animal planet.
00:27:32.13\00:27:33.83
That's about it,
you need 3ABN only.
00:27:33.84\00:27:38.03
Right. Yes, I think so.
00:27:38.04\00:27:39.64
Jennifer we're
gonna go into that
00:27:39.65\00:27:41.47
I think next time alright
00:27:41.48\00:27:42.61
because we want to do
justice of this subject.
00:27:42.62\00:27:44.87
We do. Right. We
do. I want to thank you
00:27:44.88\00:27:46.40
for being on this program and
00:27:46.41\00:27:48.07
I appreciate that. And I want to
00:27:48.08\00:27:49.98
thank you and I
hope that you will
00:27:49.99\00:27:52.32
not be deceived
by the worldly love
00:27:52.33\00:27:54.50
but what God
wants to have for you.
00:27:54.51\00:27:56.76
Join us again on
00:27:56.77\00:27:57.74
Thinking about Home.
00:27:57.75\00:27:58.72