Hello, I am Kathy Matthews,
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and I am glad
you've joined us on
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Thinking about
Home. On our last program
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we were talking
about true love weights
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and we talked
about the love of God and
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relationships and
having some difficult
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relationships and
then learning that God has
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a better plan for us
and that our foundation
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should be found in
Christ even in courtship
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and our love relationships.
And we have a guest,
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her name is Jennifer
Schwirzer and a couple of
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other guests and I
want to welcome them again,
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Jennifer I want to
specially welcome you
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and I like to welcome
John and Karen as well
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and I would like to
make a little explanation for
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the viewers again
and that is that John and
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Karen Tsigonoff are a
Bible study couple that
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Tom and, my
husband Tom and I have been
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studying with and
they're joining us again today
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about this subject
of love and Jennifer has
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similar beliefs that
I do that God's plan for
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people and romance
and human sexuality is
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monogamy and can
you explain to us
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what is
monogamy. What is monogamy,
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well it is not a type
of wood, that's mahogany.
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Monogamy in the
word monogamy we see
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mono meaning one. Yes.
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So, what monogamy
means is one partner
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for life in contrast
to polygamy which is many
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partners for life. And
monogamy is God's plan,
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won't you say? It is.
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Yes, I believe it is
God's plan and I think God's
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plan is that our
romance in our life should be
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geared towards seeking
out one partner to bond
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with. For. For
marriage. Our entire life.
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Yes, for our entire
life. That's right. Yes.
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What I have come to
realize is that human
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passion is like fire,
it's something that God has
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given us the capacity
for and it has tremendous
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potential for you
know keeping the race
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populating, Right.
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So it's very useful,
it's like the fire of the sun,
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without the sun we
would instantly die.
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Right. So it gives
life, passion gives life
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but if it is not like
fire kept within certain
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constraints it
becomes destructive, the very
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thing that gives
life becomes destructive.
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Good illustration.
Without certain constraints.
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I can appreciate
that. And human passion
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without certain
constraints allow to run riot
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so to speak, yes,
becomes a very destructive force
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many people have realized
that in the most bitter way.
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I know. And so I am
a person that promotes
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monogamy and I
promote monogamy's partners
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which would be
abstinence and chastity.
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And you were telling us
chastity that abstinence
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refers to most often
to young men and chastity
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refers often to young
women, I don't know why
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that is but that
seems to be the way I have
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always heard it anyway
I am no expert on that it
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just seems to be that
that's the way it was used.
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They both have the
same basic definition and
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that is waiting
until marriage and so I am
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a big advocate of
monogamy and chastity
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and abstinence and
there are number of reasons
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why I believe that
way and I know you share
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that belief with me. I do.
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I do want to look
at some of the reasons
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for monogamy. Okay.
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Some of the benefits. Benefits.
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Of monogamy and
correspondingly some
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of the draw backs
of extra marital sexual
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activity. So, lets look
at the first graphic actually
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no, I don't want to look
at the graphic right away
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I want to quote a study
or just sort of paraphrase
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a study. Its been
found that people are more
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happy within their
marriage relationship when
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they wait until
marriage. They are just more
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satisfied generally with
the relationship and with
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the physical aspect of
the relationship if they
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wait until marriage
and especially if they have
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one partner for life time.
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Don't you think
probably the guilt factor or.
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Has a lot to do with.
Has a lot to do with that.
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That's right, that's
right. Another benefit
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of monogamy is that
monogamous people are
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healthier physically.
Let's take a look at some
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statistics here 75 to
85% of HIV positive adults
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were infected
through unprotected sex.
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There are about 8500
new HIV infections a day.
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And that's from the
World AIDS day resource
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booklet. So
monogamous people are physically
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healthier. They are
also actually back up
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a little bit that's
not to mention other STD's
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and other physical
problems that can come.
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Right. From non
monogamy, we can't ignore
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though the fact that
there is a mental aspect to
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whether we follow
God's plan or not. For human
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passion and so I am
going to make the assertion
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that monogamous
people are mentally healthier
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because whenever we
follow God's plan in any
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area of life it's going
to lend itself to our mental
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health. Right, right.
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So let's look at some
more information here.
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Research indicates that
sexually active teens are
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more liable to drug
and alcohol abuse, and more
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likely to have
trouble in school. That's from
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Pediatrics. Sexually
active teenage girls are
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more likely to be
depressed, have low self
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esteem, a big
problem, feel lonely and even
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more likely to
attempt suicide from the same
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journal. So monogamy
is conducive to mental
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health. Yes.
Physical health. Yes.
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And happiness in the
marriage relationship.
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We can't ignore the
fact that monogamy also is
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culturally healthier
and this is another study
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I want to look at, culturally?
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You mean socially
healthier. Culturally,
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Socially healthier. I see, okay.
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One study reports
"an unvarying correlation
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between the degree
of sexual restraints
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and the rate of social
progress. Cultures that
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were more sexually
permissive displayed less
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cultural energy,
creativity, intellectual
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development and individualism,
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and a slower
general cultural ascent."
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That's from an article
from Christianity Today.
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Well, I can completely
attest to that. I am living
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I am living example
of that, that is true.
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I went to Africa in
April and of course there is
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much polygamy in
Africa and you can just see
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how there has been
damage that's been wrought
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through that
practice and many other
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non Biblical
practices that they have.
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The last aspect that I
want to bring out is cost,
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I would say this
way I would say monogamy
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saves money, lets look
at this last statistic here.
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Oh that's an
interesting statistics.
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Yes, more than 80
percent of pregnant
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girls under 17 who
give birth and keep their
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babies end up on
welfare, costing society a
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staggering 21 billion yearly.
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Yeah, somebody
has to pay for that.
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Somebody has to
pay for all this,
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so isn't that
something. It's incredible.
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Do you feel that if
more people were aware of
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all these draw
backs would they wait
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I think so. As a matter
of fact I know so because
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the love weights
movement that you mentioned
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before has had an
impact on the youth
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of America. It has had
an impact in fact between
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1995 and 1997 the
number of virgin teens has
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increased from 46 to
52 percent because in the
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love weights
presentations they show them the
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benefits of monogamy
and they compare them
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to the draw backs
of extra marital sexual
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activity. And it's clear
to these kids that if they
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want to be healthy
and happy for a long term,
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period of time. Right.
That they need to practice
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monogamy. So it's a good thing.
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Okay, are you going
to list the benefits
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and the risks? Well,
I just did that but what
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I want to talk
about now is the fact that
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it's important for us to
count the cost and I don't
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think self
preservation is a bad thing
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if something is bad for
us and we abstain from it
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that's a good idea.
However I think God is
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calling us to a
higher motivation then merely
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self preservation,
doing what's good for me.
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Right. Now we were
discussing that last night.
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We were discussing
about more than just the
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self preservation
and that we should have
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another motive. That's
right, the purpose of a
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Christian is not
merely to look out for number
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one. God's desire is
to reproduce his image in
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man and the word image
as well as several other
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Biblical words that
convey this concept really
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needs character. God
wants to reproduce his
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character and
character we are told is a
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combination of
thoughts and feelings,
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so if we are to have
God's character reproduced
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in us through the
process of character
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development we are
going to think like God
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and feel like God
and that encompasses our
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motives. So if we are
merely doing something
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good for a selfish
reason. Right. We are really
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failing of measuring
up to God's high and lofty
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standard that he has
for us. We are not just
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preparing for
happiness in this world.
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We are preparing
for heaven. Right.
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We are preparing to
inhabit a sinless heaven that
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is characterized by
unselfishness and not only
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that but we are
preparing for the end of time
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and that's why I call
this love in the last days.
00:10:00.14\00:10:02.45
Its possible to seek
you know good things for
00:10:03.50\00:10:07.19
the wrong reason. Yes.
It's possible to even be
00:10:07.22\00:10:09.23
monogamist and
chaste just because we care
00:10:09.26\00:10:11.89
about our reputation
or because we want to
00:10:11.92\00:10:14.25
preserve ourselves.
Right. And that's okay as far
00:10:14.28\00:10:16.63
as it goes but it does
not accomplish God's will
00:10:16.66\00:10:19.06
in our life ultimately.
00:10:19.09\00:10:20.31
So you think it's
possible for us to be morally
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pure for selfish motives.
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I think so and I think
what happens when people
00:10:24.23\00:10:27.14
are morally pure for
selfish reasons is they
00:10:27.17\00:10:29.80
tend to become very
self righteous and they
00:10:29.83\00:10:32.54
have an attitude that
actually turns people away
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from what the standard
that they're upholding.
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Yes. You know I am
someone that promotes
00:10:38.76\00:10:42.39
monogamy, I promote
morality. Right. But I try
00:10:42.42\00:10:45.26
to do it in a
Christian spirit and I know that
00:10:45.29\00:10:48.01
nobody can be moral
without the grace of God.
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Right. Not truly moral.
Right. In the true sense
00:10:50.95\00:10:53.21
of the term, they can
be hourly moral and they
00:10:53.24\00:10:56.11
can fool people
through their behaviors into
00:10:56.14\00:10:59.03
believing that
they are good people.
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But God sees the
heart, man looks on the
00:11:01.40\00:11:03.83
outward appearance,
God looks on the heart
00:11:03.86\00:11:05.98
and God is seeking to
transform human hearts
00:11:06.01\00:11:09.26
and not just people's behavior.
00:11:09.29\00:11:11.01
Right. In other
words it goes, what God is
00:11:11.04\00:11:12.87
calling us it goes
way beyond behavior
00:11:12.90\00:11:15.08
modification. And
while we, well, even
00:11:15.11\00:11:17.61
Proverbs promotes
my son listen to me
00:11:17.64\00:11:19.96
and the Bible promotes
doing things because it
00:11:21.45\00:11:25.76
might shame your mother, if you
00:11:25.79\00:11:28.24
don't do this or it may cause
the reputation of your father
00:11:28.27\00:11:30.87
decline as well as your
own, that's a step but the
00:11:30.90\00:11:34.95
deepest reason is to
glorify God and to develop
00:11:34.98\00:11:38.39
a character like God.
That's right, the ultimate
00:11:38.42\00:11:40.71
goal of a Christian
is to give honor to God.
00:11:40.74\00:11:43.00
Right. And God wants
to turn us away from our
00:11:43.03\00:11:46.41
typically selfish
motives. You see if we're doing
00:11:46.44\00:11:49.03
the right thing for
selfish motives we're really
00:11:49.06\00:11:51.36
not exercising the
Agape principal. We are
00:11:51.39\00:11:54.70
exercising the Eros
principle. In other words
00:11:54.73\00:11:57.74
I am loving myself
and I am doing things in
00:11:57.77\00:12:00.79
such a way that I am
bringing glory to myself
00:12:00.82\00:12:03.51
which is the essence
of Eros, but without God's
00:12:04.21\00:12:08.11
Agape even my right
actions are going to be selfish.
00:12:08.14\00:12:11.49
Right, And so God is
leading us to something much
00:12:11.52\00:12:13.38
higher than that. You go ahead.
00:12:13.41\00:12:14.46
The Holy Spirit too
also, one of the things
00:12:14.49\00:12:18.17
I've noticed in the
last 8 or 9 months since
00:12:18.20\00:12:19.81
we have been
studying this is that the
00:12:19.84\00:12:20.81
Holy Spirit continually
convicts me. I am sure
00:12:20.82\00:12:24.69
my husband would
agree that I feel conviction
00:12:24.72\00:12:28.12
to search out my true motives.
00:12:28.75\00:12:30.72
Right. So I know
what my motives are
00:12:30.75\00:12:33.06
I will feel the need to do that.
00:12:33.09\00:12:35.29
I know that many
times John, we have had
00:12:36.04\00:12:37.51
conversations and the
three of us or four of us,
00:12:37.54\00:12:40.11
Tom and I and the two
of you and that you have
00:12:40.14\00:12:43.67
brought a, what if a
person really doesn't realize
00:12:43.70\00:12:49.06
they haven't changed
yet or some idea like that,
00:12:49.09\00:12:52.24
what if they don't
really know their motives
00:12:52.86\00:12:55.27
and they just, it's on
the outside but they don't
00:12:55.30\00:12:57.92
understand what's
going on. They may appear to
00:12:57.95\00:13:01.14
be changing but not
quite enough on the inside
00:13:01.17\00:13:03.78
and I am not certain
what was behind those
00:13:04.43\00:13:07.08
kinds of questions
but I know that you are
00:13:07.11\00:13:09.23
struggling with
something and this is what we
00:13:09.26\00:13:11.90
are getting it is
that our motives be pure
00:13:11.93\00:13:14.04
and that we are not
deceiving ourselves and
00:13:14.07\00:13:16.68
we are not
fooling ourselves that
00:13:16.71\00:13:18.08
our change is genuine. Right.
00:13:18.11\00:13:20.35
You know, So. We got
to seek him to bring him
00:13:21.03\00:13:23.88
about in our
lives, it's not an outward
00:13:23.91\00:13:25.77
observance so much as an inward
00:13:25.80\00:13:29.21
transformation Yes.
00:13:30.51\00:13:31.48
He wants us to
inculcate an embody an inward
00:13:31.49\00:13:33.48
principal that then
will result in an outward
00:13:33.51\00:13:36.68
transformation in our
lives but it's possible for
00:13:36.71\00:13:39.92
us because we are blind
legalists and our natural
00:13:39.95\00:13:43.16
tendency is to be legalistic.
00:13:43.19\00:13:44.65
It is possible for us
to get the cart before the
00:13:45.08\00:13:47.15
horse and look at
God's standards and say, okay
00:13:47.18\00:13:50.16
you know I can measure
up to that and typically
00:13:50.58\00:13:52.08
what you'll have is
two classes of people
00:13:52.11\00:13:53.86
the strong willed
and the weak willed.
00:13:54.38\00:13:55.88
The strong willed can
do it, they can handle it,
00:13:56.36\00:13:58.51
they set their eyes on
the prize and they go for it
00:13:58.54\00:14:01.90
and they decide that
they are going to conquer
00:14:01.93\00:14:03.52
and that they
are going to be good.
00:14:03.99\00:14:05.62
Right, right. So to
speak and they make it
00:14:05.65\00:14:07.65
and then you have the
weak willed ones on that
00:14:08.08\00:14:09.67
same program. Right.
00:14:09.70\00:14:10.96
That just can't seem
to ever measure up, right,
00:14:11.34\00:14:13.46
because their wills
aren't strong enough
00:14:13.49\00:14:14.66
and the strong willed
ones often make the weak
00:14:15.00\00:14:17.05
willed ones feel defeated. Yes.
00:14:17.08\00:14:19.92
Unless the gospel of
Jesus is present. Amen.
00:14:20.82\00:14:24.26
And its made
everybody involved. Right.
00:14:24.29\00:14:26.12
That only God's grace
can save a person from
00:14:26.70\00:14:30.32
themselves and God
is seeking to transform
00:14:30.35\00:14:33.70
people internally. Right, right.
00:14:33.73\00:14:35.20
And how we view one
another in this subject.
00:14:35.23\00:14:37.53
Yeah, that's right.
00:14:37.56\00:14:38.65
You know, God can
transform our life
00:14:39.17\00:14:41.03
principles from
selfish to self giving,
00:14:41.06\00:14:43.02
That's right. Don't you think?
00:14:43.05\00:14:44.02
that's what he is looking to do,
00:14:44.03\00:14:45.00
that's exactly what he
is looking to do. Yeah.
00:14:45.01\00:14:46.76
And I think if we
don't proceed with that
00:14:47.34\00:14:51.71
process we might
run into trouble later.
00:14:53.14\00:14:55.29
You mean deal with our motives.
00:14:55.32\00:14:56.84
Yeah, I think if we
were refuse to deal with our
00:14:56.87\00:14:59.28
hearts we refuse to go
down on our heart level
00:14:59.31\00:15:01.67
and get in earnest
with God and get honest with
00:15:01.70\00:15:03.58
God about what
principles we're operating on
00:15:03.61\00:15:07.34
if we refuse to come
out of our natural enate
00:15:07.84\00:15:10.10
legalism, into his
righteousness which
00:15:10.13\00:15:13.43
crucifies self glory. Right.
00:15:13.46\00:15:15.83
If we refuse to
part with our own pride
00:15:16.35\00:15:18.85
and you know pride can
mask itself pretty well
00:15:19.76\00:15:21.92
and you can be a
religious person and be very
00:15:21.95\00:15:23.57
proud. Right, absolutely.
00:15:23.60\00:15:25.07
Yes and so if we
don't deal with the motives
00:15:25.10\00:15:28.48
our heart and allow
God to transform us I think
00:15:28.51\00:15:31.21
that what will
ultimately happen is that a test
00:15:31.76\00:15:35.45
will come along that
is more than even our
00:15:35.48\00:15:37.59
strong master for
wills can handle and we will
00:15:37.62\00:15:41.06
crumble.
Absolutely. That's right.
00:15:41.09\00:15:44.02
And we can say some
more, is there more that
00:15:44.05\00:15:45.85
you can say about
the positive side of
00:15:45.88\00:15:48.05
monogamy you want to
say any before you go
00:15:48.08\00:15:50.43
into your more the
next text that you have.
00:15:50.46\00:15:54.87
Sure, I think its God's
will and I think that there
00:15:55.61\00:15:59.95
is an aspect to
monogamy that is impossible to
00:15:59.98\00:16:02.23
document and that is
the spiritual aspect to it,
00:16:02.26\00:16:05.91
a person lives according
to the principal of Eros
00:16:06.50\00:16:11.53
and it leads them into
a polygamous approach to
00:16:11.56\00:16:14.36
relationship,
multiple relationships or even
00:16:14.39\00:16:17.27
infidelity within their
relationships or getting
00:16:17.30\00:16:20.69
too involved too
fast as a young person.
00:16:20.72\00:16:22.84
Right, right. I think it
can actually do spiritual
00:16:22.87\00:16:25.33
damage and people can
be lost and they can be
00:16:25.36\00:16:27.21
caught up in a
delusive spirit and they can be
00:16:27.24\00:16:29.84
lost unless they are
part of that ultimately.
00:16:29.87\00:16:32.51
You know, I think
too that our nation is
00:16:32.54\00:16:34.62
beginning to realize
this because books are
00:16:34.65\00:16:36.75
coming out on
subjects of true love weights,
00:16:36.78\00:16:40.25
there is a lot of
information I believe
00:16:41.19\00:16:42.89
that God is really inspiring
people, that's not just
00:16:42.92\00:16:46.86
been in this past year.
This has been going on for
00:16:46.89\00:16:49.30
10 or 12 years every
bit of it, if not more
00:16:49.33\00:16:51.87
by some people that
God is touching to write
00:16:52.28\00:16:55.82
and try to reach
people but I think its really
00:16:55.85\00:16:59.26
happening over the
last two years or three
00:16:59.29\00:17:01.66
and people are
waking up that what we have
00:17:02.32\00:17:04.85
come out of in the last
30-40 years and throwing
00:17:04.88\00:17:07.68
away authority and
throwing away what God
00:17:07.71\00:17:10.42
had said and we are
reaping the whirlwind now,
00:17:10.45\00:17:14.84
we are really reaping
the results of our choices
00:17:14.87\00:17:17.99
and now we have a
swing back towards wanting
00:17:18.53\00:17:23.21
to do what God
would have us to do
00:17:23.24\00:17:25.31
in relationships at
least its unbecoming much
00:17:25.34\00:17:28.98
more aware of it and
I think there are many
00:17:29.01\00:17:31.41
that are. That's right.
00:17:31.44\00:17:32.74
Karen, did you have
some other questions may be
00:17:32.77\00:17:34.63
that you would like to throw in.
00:17:34.66\00:17:36.47
Well no I just as far
as what you were saying
00:17:36.50\00:17:37.97
it becomes, in the
beginning of our relationship
00:17:38.00\00:17:41.83
it was very self
serving and even before we got
00:17:41.86\00:17:46.08
married just a month
before we got married,
00:17:46.11\00:17:47.57
I was very, very
strong about wanting to wait,
00:17:48.22\00:17:54.90
we didn't even move
in together you know,
00:17:55.58\00:17:58.03
John got the
apartment and I'm moved in after
00:17:58.06\00:18:01.10
we were married.
I remember, Yeah,
00:18:01.13\00:18:02.79
and I was very
impressed with you because you
00:18:03.15\00:18:05.57
don't run into well
first I might add that
00:18:05.60\00:18:08.37
my husband and I
are property managers
00:18:08.40\00:18:10.22
and so we run into
several people who have chosen
00:18:10.25\00:18:15.33
for their way of
life certainly some things
00:18:15.36\00:18:18.12
that God would
never have them to do,
00:18:18.15\00:18:19.90
but they are not
recognizing God in their life
00:18:19.93\00:18:22.47
and consequently many
of them have ruined lives
00:18:22.82\00:18:27.24
and when this young
lady came along we had
00:18:27.27\00:18:29.65
several hours of
discussion one day
00:18:29.68\00:18:31.43
and I was very
impressed with her desires to do
00:18:31.46\00:18:34.62
what the Lord would
have her to do, even
00:18:34.65\00:18:36.57
though her life was,
had a lot of changes coming
00:18:36.60\00:18:40.38
and we all do when we
start out coming to know
00:18:40.41\00:18:43.36
the Lord and she
had a desire to have the
00:18:43.39\00:18:47.93
apartment rented and
that her husband would
00:18:47.96\00:18:50.44
or rather at that time
her fiance would move in
00:18:50.47\00:18:52.48
and she would wait
until they were married
00:18:52.80\00:18:54.47
and then they would
be together in their
00:18:54.50\00:18:56.47
new little home and I,
you know, that thought is
00:18:56.50\00:18:59.90
something that I
thought was a wonderful thing.
00:18:59.93\00:19:01.66
Well, the Lord
instills, the beginning is the
00:19:02.25\00:19:06.33
desire to change and
then the Lord just guides
00:19:06.36\00:19:08.73
you along, the
minute, the moment, the very
00:19:08.76\00:19:11.25
moment that I wanted
to change the Lord just
00:19:11.28\00:19:13.82
said, okay, my
child and he held my hand
00:19:13.85\00:19:16.94
and he showed me.
It wasn't even like a
00:19:16.97\00:19:18.79
challenge for me, it
wasn't like I had to try.
00:19:18.82\00:19:23.45
I just this is what
flowed naturally, the Lord just
00:19:23.48\00:19:27.35
showed me this is
what I would love you to do
00:19:27.38\00:19:29.68
and I just
immediately wanted to do that
00:19:29.71\00:19:31.68
and same for John.
00:19:31.71\00:19:33.12
Choices, but you
were making choices even
00:19:33.79\00:19:36.15
though you may not
have realized it they were
00:19:36.18\00:19:37.96
choices at the time. Right.
00:19:37.99\00:19:39.52
because love for God
doesn't flow naturally,
00:19:39.99\00:19:43.80
it flows divinely. Right, right.
00:19:43.83\00:19:46.36
And it, our natural
nature generally fights
00:19:46.39\00:19:49.74
against it, but
obviously you were making
00:19:49.77\00:19:51.41
choices and the Holy
Spirit was working on
00:19:51.44\00:19:53.25
those choices. Amen.
And making things work out.
00:19:53.28\00:19:56.08
If you can look
back to that period
00:19:56.11\00:19:58.93
of your life what
would you say were the
00:19:58.96\00:20:00.33
reasons why you were
wanting to make those
00:20:00.36\00:20:02.89
changes to begin
with. Because you weren't
00:20:02.92\00:20:05.02
always there. No.
You know something was
00:20:05.05\00:20:06.55
changing, what was
it that was changing?
00:20:06.58\00:20:08.21
What was changing
was my, I began to see
00:20:08.24\00:20:11.85
other people and see
that they had a different
00:20:11.88\00:20:14.83
kind of love and I
began to desire and I realized
00:20:14.86\00:20:18.72
there is something
different than what
00:20:18.75\00:20:19.94
I have, there is
something different
00:20:19.97\00:20:21.63
that what I know and
I wanted to know that
00:20:21.66\00:20:23.65
because what I saw
looked a lot happier than
00:20:23.68\00:20:26.17
what I had and it
looked a lot better and
00:20:26.20\00:20:28.79
I thought there
is something better
00:20:28.82\00:20:30.63
and I wanted that.
00:20:30.66\00:20:32.23
You know, that's a
watch word in our church
00:20:32.38\00:20:34.32
something
better, something better,
00:20:34.35\00:20:35.44
John did you have a
comment that you want
00:20:36.08\00:20:37.47
to add a moment ago.
00:20:37.50\00:20:38.47
I was just gonna say
that it wasn't, it wasn't
00:20:38.48\00:20:40.44
always easy you know
it's not always easy.
00:20:40.47\00:20:42.54
No, it's not.
Making those decisions.
00:20:42.57\00:20:45.19
New decisions. But as
you learn more and more
00:20:45.22\00:20:48.95
about God's love and
you know, you let him
00:20:48.98\00:20:52.40
transform you. Yes.
00:20:52.43\00:20:53.63
You just, I don't
know how to explain it,
00:20:56.14\00:20:58.29
you know I don't
know how to describe it.
00:20:58.32\00:20:59.54
Sometimes its not
describable. Yeah.
00:20:59.57\00:21:01.76
It just pulls you in. Right.
00:21:02.31\00:21:03.75
The Holy Spirit
moves in your life.
00:21:03.78\00:21:05.44
But I think a scripture
here that would be perfect
00:21:05.47\00:21:09.63
is the transforming
by the renewing of your
00:21:09.66\00:21:13.32
mind, now you, I
had learned new things
00:21:13.35\00:21:17.84
and being as you
thought on them that word in
00:21:17.87\00:21:21.19
your mind began to
make new thought patterns,
00:21:21.22\00:21:24.80
so you began to think
differently then you did
00:21:24.83\00:21:26.69
before. Yeah.
00:21:26.72\00:21:27.69
And those new
thoughts created new feelings
00:21:27.75\00:21:30.91
and that whole
thing began to change your
00:21:30.94\00:21:33.07
character, I mean
that's what the Lord tells us.
00:21:33.10\00:21:35.03
Right, it's good.
And it's by the renewing
00:21:35.06\00:21:37.98
of your mind. I want
to go back to the thought
00:21:38.01\00:21:40.94
that I made, the point
that I made a little while
00:21:40.97\00:21:43.24
ago that if we don't
deal with our motives,
00:21:43.27\00:21:45.92
if the Holy Spirit that
moved in your life and is
00:21:46.39\00:21:49.07
moving in so many
lives doesn't get to the
00:21:49.10\00:21:50.68
bottom of our motives,
we won't be prepared for
00:21:50.71\00:21:53.91
the tests that's going
to come upon us very soon
00:21:53.94\00:21:56.65
and I want to make a
comparison between the
00:21:57.37\00:22:01.27
church and the wilderness. Yes.
00:22:01.30\00:22:03.56
The Hebrew people as
they travel through the
00:22:03.59\00:22:05.89
wilderness and the
present day church,
00:22:05.92\00:22:08.09
we are told that
they were examples for us
00:22:09.10\00:22:10.87
and when they were on
the borders of the heavenly,
00:22:11.79\00:22:14.53
of the earthly Canaan,
Yes, they were faced with an
00:22:14.56\00:22:18.25
unprecedented temptation,
nothing that they had
00:22:18.28\00:22:21.92
ever faced was
equivalent to what they were
00:22:21.95\00:22:24.25
facing on the
borders of Canaan, when they
00:22:24.28\00:22:27.33
were faced with a
temptation of idolatry
00:22:27.36\00:22:29.72
and infidelity with
the Moabite and Midianite
00:22:30.53\00:22:33.37
women and we are told
pretty much, wholesale,
00:22:33.40\00:22:37.15
the camp of Israel fell into sin
00:22:37.18\00:22:39.34
Right. As a result of
that we are told that the
00:22:39.37\00:22:42.42
same scenario will be
reproduced at the end of
00:22:42.45\00:22:46.00
time when God's
people are on the borders
00:22:46.03\00:22:48.55
of the heavenly
Canaan. Heavenly Canaan.
00:22:48.58\00:22:50.39
Isn't that heavy thought? It is.
00:22:50.42\00:22:52.35
It is and we are seeing it.
00:22:52.38\00:22:53.59
And I want to look
at that text right now,
00:22:53.62\00:22:56.13
it says "as we
approach the close of time,
00:22:58.24\00:23:00.68
as the people of God
stand upon the borders
00:23:01.28\00:23:03.36
of the heavenly
Canaan, Satan will, as of old,
00:23:03.39\00:23:06.33
redouble his
efforts to prevent them from
00:23:06.36\00:23:09.09
entering the goodly
land, by worldly friendships,
00:23:09.12\00:23:13.36
by the charms of
beauty, by pleasure seeking,
00:23:13.90\00:23:17.35
mirth, feasting, or the
wine cup, he tempts to the
00:23:17.86\00:23:22.82
violation of the
seventh commandment."
00:23:22.85\00:23:25.46
That's from patriarchs
and prophets which is a
00:23:25.96\00:23:27.85
great book. So the
same scenario is going to be
00:23:27.88\00:23:32.22
reproduced in the
present day church, that hit
00:23:32.25\00:23:36.38
the ancients. Yes.
On the borders of Canaan
00:23:36.41\00:23:39.73
and I believe if people
are not prepared by doing
00:23:40.21\00:23:43.81
the hard work that
is necessary for that
00:23:43.84\00:23:45.83
preparation they
are going to be hit with
00:23:46.49\00:23:49.70
something that they
had no idea they would ever
00:23:49.73\00:23:51.80
confront and they will
be caught off guard and
00:23:51.83\00:23:53.84
we're told that many
bright lights will go out.
00:23:53.87\00:23:55.96
Yes. So, that's what
God is leading us to I think
00:23:55.99\00:23:59.91
at least in this
context, he wants us to make
00:23:59.94\00:24:03.56
real earnest and really
focused on the hard aspect
00:24:03.59\00:24:08.12
of Christian growth. Amen.
00:24:08.15\00:24:10.31
Would you agree
with that? Oh absolutely.
00:24:10.34\00:24:11.65
Yeah And if you would
like to give us a little
00:24:11.97\00:24:16.54
recap now of what
we're going over. Sure.
00:24:16.57\00:24:18.25
And what we've
been going over. Sure.
00:24:18.28\00:24:20.51
We're talking about
the difference between
00:24:20.91\00:24:22.77
human love and
God's love. Human love is
00:24:22.80\00:24:26.37
typically what
theologians and philosophers
00:24:26.40\00:24:30.41
call Eros which just
means self serving love.
00:24:30.48\00:24:34.81
Right. It can be
love of various types,
00:24:34.84\00:24:37.45
but it is a love that is
characterized by seeking to
00:24:37.48\00:24:41.52
acquire another
to in which self.
00:24:41.55\00:24:44.95
Right. And it's a type
of love that appears to be
00:24:44.98\00:24:48.82
love for another but
it is really self love.
00:24:48.85\00:24:51.81
You know, how you
can just seem to be so
00:24:52.15\00:24:53.74
passionately in
love with another person
00:24:53.77\00:24:55.87
or a relationship can
seem to be so passionate,
00:24:55.90\00:24:59.77
people seem to
love each other so much.
00:24:59.80\00:25:01.71
Yes. But in fact they
are involved in a sort of
00:25:01.74\00:25:04.98
self love. When you
dive deeper you notice that.
00:25:05.01\00:25:08.40
You realize that its
just self love. More selfish.
00:25:08.43\00:25:10.04
And you really
don't weather the storms,
00:25:10.07\00:25:13.33
that kind of love
doesn't weather the storms
00:25:13.36\00:25:16.04
together. It
doesn't weather the storms
00:25:16.07\00:25:17.33
and we're going to be
talking more about that
00:25:17.54\00:25:19.37
later, but in contrast
of that is God's love which
00:25:19.40\00:25:23.27
is a love of service. I
love another person based
00:25:23.30\00:25:27.40
on commitment, based
on a desire to do them
00:25:27.43\00:25:30.49
good, based on a
principle rather than a feeling.
00:25:30.52\00:25:35.76
God is trying to lead
us to a place where we
00:25:37.57\00:25:39.98
have the Agape
principle in our own personal
00:25:40.01\00:25:42.56
experience. Right.
00:25:42.59\00:25:43.56
And so while
monogamy is God's ideal,
00:25:44.18\00:25:46.35
we need to go deeper
than just a behavior mode
00:25:46.83\00:25:49.79
programmed that leads
us to do the right thing
00:25:49.82\00:25:52.62
for the wrong reason.
God is trying to lead us to
00:25:52.65\00:25:55.27
the place where we are
pure within and without
00:25:55.30\00:25:58.63
and I believe that only
that will prepare us for
00:25:59.36\00:26:03.29
the unprecedented
test before us. Amen.
00:26:03.32\00:26:05.75
Would you agree with that?
00:26:05.78\00:26:06.75
I agree with that. Yeah.
00:26:06.76\00:26:07.73
And you know some
of the things too that
00:26:07.74\00:26:09.21
I would like to say
just before we come to a
00:26:09.24\00:26:10.87
close is some of the
material that I have been
00:26:10.90\00:26:14.39
reading that other
people have been recognizing
00:26:14.42\00:26:17.34
this problem that
flows around the world,
00:26:17.37\00:26:19.51
its inhumane nature.
But you know, I read those
00:26:19.54\00:26:22.49
things that come
out of the Western World
00:26:22.52\00:26:24.13
and I have been
interested by the
00:26:24.80\00:26:28.13
statistics that have
shown that even churched
00:26:28.16\00:26:31.11
youth have difficulties
and there is got to be that
00:26:31.14\00:26:36.55
hidden reasons, not
even hidden, that reasons
00:26:36.58\00:26:39.61
why that just behavior
modification is not going
00:26:39.64\00:26:44.16
to always keep
them out of trouble.
00:26:44.19\00:26:45.52
That's right. I am
not saying that a person
00:26:45.55\00:26:46.87
can't be overwhelmed
even when they are truly
00:26:46.90\00:26:49.09
converted and so forth.
But that if we have more
00:26:49.12\00:26:55.34
than and I just
recently read this out of a very
00:26:55.37\00:26:58.72
influential book
that we can trust today
00:26:59.60\00:27:03.77
and even more than
50% of churched youth are
00:27:04.05\00:27:09.13
having difficulties
in these intimate areas
00:27:09.16\00:27:12.49
and they don't know
why, they don't know how
00:27:12.52\00:27:15.15
to stop themselves
and why do they fall into
00:27:15.18\00:27:18.13
these kinds of
situations. Now I can go back to
00:27:18.16\00:27:20.22
mine and I
wasn't a churched youth
00:27:20.25\00:27:21.74
and but we have an
overwhelming problem
00:27:22.64\00:27:26.48
in our nation today
That's right. And it's not
00:27:26.51\00:27:28.51
exclusively, it is
not, in the unchurched.
00:27:28.54\00:27:30.98
It's the church does
well and I personally
00:27:31.28\00:27:34.50
believe that part of it
is that we have a lack of
00:27:34.53\00:27:36.35
understanding
of God's Agape love
00:27:36.38\00:27:38.05
and I'm going into that.
Right. In the next session.
00:27:38.08\00:27:40.42
Right. That the
deception of Eros has even hit
00:27:40.45\00:27:44.25
the Christian
church. That's right.
00:27:44.28\00:27:45.72
It has, it's
been there for a while
00:27:45.75\00:27:47.53
Jennifer thank you
and John and Karen.
00:27:48.03\00:27:49.65
And I want to thank
you too for being with us
00:27:49.68\00:27:52.40
here on Thinking about Home.
00:27:52.43\00:27:53.84
Don't miss those
programs that are coming up
00:27:54.39\00:27:56.11
we want to see
you again. Goodbye.
00:27:56.59\00:27:58.48