Welcome to Thinking
About Home, I'm Kathy Mathews
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and I'm glad
that you're with us.
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We're going to be
talking about redemptive
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discipline, a little
bit more. And today, we're
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going to be
especially talking about
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forgiveness. When you
to redemptive discipline,
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redemptive church
discipline, redeeming
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discipline in our
families and once again the
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President of the Michigan
Conference of Seventh-Day
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Adventist Jay Gallimore
is with us. Welcome Jay.
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Thank you, it's
a joy to be here.
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Oh! I'm glad you are
here, it's been a good program
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and I think
we've something, maybe
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really special
for the people today.
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It maybe, this maybe the most
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important part
that we talk about.
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Okay. Uh-huh. It's
fascinating, forgiveness.
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Umm! So, easy to expect
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there are other people.
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Difficult to bring
up in our own hearts.
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In our own hearts,
that's for those the difficulty
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comes. Yes.
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But Jesus do not leave
the subject of redemptive
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discipline without
spending again more time
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on forgiveness. Umm! Umm!
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Then he did all the rest of it.
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Umm! Umm! Or at least the other
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section of the restoration part,
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it talks lot about preventative.
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A little bit about,
how to put it back and
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a whole lot
about forgiveness. Umm!
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Kathy, I think let's
just turn to the scripture now
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and see Peter's
reaction to all of these things
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that Jesus has had to say here.
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Let's start with the scripture.
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"Then Peter came
and said to Him, 'Lord,
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how often shall my
brother sin against me,
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and I forgive him?
Up to seven times?"
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Umm! Right.
Peter caught the drift,
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where Jesus was
going. Umm! Why so?
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Well, you know he
didn't live in a society,
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where forgiveness
was, I think when you look
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in the, in the context,
the culture they lived in.
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Umm! Umm! This
was really a quite
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a step, you know to
forgive somebody one
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time what
something, but seven times.
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Umm! Umm! But let's ask our self
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that question. Okay.
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If somebody punched
me in the nose once,
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would I be
willing to forgive him.
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Interesting example. Probably.
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Maybe once.
Probably, if they punch
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me in the nose twice.
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Well, if they punch me
in the nose three times.
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Now, we're not even
anywhere near Peter's
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seven. Umm!
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I'm using an
illustration to help us
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Understand and
helping my own heart to
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understand. Umm!
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How hard it is for
us to be willing to keep
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forgiving, now I
didn't say keep indulging.
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Right. It is different doesn't
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mean I prove somebody
punching anybody in the
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nose. Right.
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That should be dealt with. Umm!
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But why do I forgive
it, if the hurt keeps coming
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and how often should I forgive.
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Umm! And what is my capacity
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to forgive. Umm!
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So, my capacity to
forgive is measured by
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Jesus' response, which
was an incredible response.
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Because you know the answer.
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It's not
natural isn't? It's not.
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It has to be spirit given. Umm!
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You know, what about
spouses forgiving each
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other. What do you see there?
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I think that is at the
root of a lot of marriage
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difficulty. Umm! Umm!
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To keep forgiving in a marriage.
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Umm! Is absolutely essential.
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Umm! But, I don't think,
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it could be done really
with other changed heart
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that are free,
without the Lord changing our
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hearts. Absolutely, you know
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I've a little illustration
that I like to share
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with you. Please.
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And I think it is
hard for us to learn to
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forgive. In fact, I
think that many of us don't
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know when somebody is
asking for forgiveness
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many times. That's true.
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I've had an
experience in years ago, not too
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long after I
become a Christian. I was
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becoming very
sensitive to the Lord's,
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to please the Lord
and there was an incident,
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where the Lord
convicted me that I needed to
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ask a particular lady
in the Church to forgive
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me and you were to go
publicly ask that sort
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of thing and when they
had not come to you and
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it didn't
appeared to be a problem.
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But were you supposed
to go and do it, you know.
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Yeah! To restore, to reconcile,
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to open the door for
reconciliation and so
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forth and I had a
communion service one
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evening, asked about
this forgiveness and explained
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that I would desired
her forgiveness and the
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answer was. Oh!
Kathy, we all have our
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idiosyncrasies and
that is burned into my mind.
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I never received
your forgiven; I never
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saw the body
language, the recognition in the
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eyes that I was neutering
and struggling to ask for
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forgiveness and it
was just waved away and it
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was painful for a while.
But, I think people don't
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always know how to
forgive, it's difficult
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for them to do
that. That's right. Oh!
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You really needed
to hear that point was.
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I didn't need to hear something.
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You're forgiven
Kathy. Absolutely.
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That's what you need to
hear, that's kind be the
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sweetest words to
the human heart from our
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heavenly father.
Yes, and can I add just
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one other little thing on there.
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Please, please. Because when I,
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when we were talking
about our children on
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being sorry. We ask our
children not to just say,
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Oh! I'm sorry, that
most of the time, not all the
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time. Because some
things, we just I'm
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sorry I don't tend to
you. You know, that sort of
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thing. Right.
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But with there was a
real problem to go and not
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just say I'm sorry,
to go and say will you
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forgive me and the
other one was required to say,
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I'll forgive you or
you are forgiven and
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these things to me
had heavenly symbols.
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I think of one of the
most outstanding pictures
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in my own mind
from my youth was a,
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I got in some
trouble innocently, I didn't.
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Umm! I didn't mean to get
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in trouble, but it
was done and I did what I
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wasn't supposed to
and somebody taken us to
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Myrtle Beach for,
because of certain
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achievements in
school and we have to go
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group of us down and
we were having good time.
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They laid down some
rules. It was a treat for
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all of us and one of
the rules was that you don't
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go out without adult
supervision on the beach.
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Umm! Umm! Which was a great rule
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and right one and for
some reason we came back
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some of those came
back, when most everybody
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else was gone and there
are couple of girls there.
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They will take a
walk down the beach,
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now this was not a
boyfriend girlfriend
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thing, there is no doubt
over two words to it and I
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said to myself.
Well they will not
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to go down to the
beach by themselves,
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so you know. I'm
gonna go with them.
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Umm! Kind of a thing,
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well what I should
have done is you just can't
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do that. You know,
you shouldn't do that and
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certainly should not
have violate the rules so
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does we. Umm!
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We got back, of
course everybody was lying in
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porches, and
they were all worried.
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You know you can just
see the whole scene there.
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Where did they go?
And then it began to
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wash over me, you
know. How I had betrayed
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everybody's trust. Umm!
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And I don't remember
how old I was. I must
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have been 14, 15 years
old something like that
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and I remember after,
you know they disciplined
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us which they should
have done they did it kindly.
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They made it us understand the
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seriousness of it,
etc. Because you have
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received instructions.
I had, I was clear and
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we knew better then they have.
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But, I remembered you
know laying in my bed and
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just being
overwhelmed with sorrow.
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Umm! And where to find a place
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by myself and I went
outside in a stairwell
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and where nobody, I
felt could hear me and
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and you know. I
was just sobbing.
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Umm! And of course boys
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once in a while
seem sobbing, you know.
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Right, right. A kind
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of a thing. But
somebody heard me.
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Umm! And it was the wife
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of the principle. Umm!
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And she had a
great lovely heart.
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Mrs. Carlson did
and I'll never will
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forgot her coming out
in a stairwell and putting
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her arm around me. Amen. Umm!
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And telling me, that I
was forgiven and assuring
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me of that forgiveness. Umm!
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That has stuck like a
little beacon in the back
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of my life, as I'm going down,
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Umm! life journey,
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what a precious
moment, what a precious thing
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she did for me at that moment.
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Umm! Good example of
what the father would
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do for you. Yes,
our heavenly father,
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the savior's arms are
open, ready to forgive us
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and Peter I guess I
had caught the drift.
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He just didn't catch
the picture big enough.
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Umm! And I often thought about
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this, how glad I'm
Kathy. That there is no
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limit to the
father's forgiveness.
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Umm! Umm! I've said,
you know, there is such
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things of unpardonable sin. Umm!
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But the scripture is
clear the unpardonable sin
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is because the human
being hardens their heart.
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Right. Not because of father
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has a small reservoir Right.
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of forgiveness. Right.
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And we need to
keep that in mind.
00:09:08.59\00:09:10.11
That's right. We
need to keep that
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clear in our mind.
That's right. So, I think
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your point
about the family. Umm!
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Is well taken that
there needs to be, we must
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have an attitude to
forgiveness is what I
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call it. Right.
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Abraham Lincoln was
wonderful about that,
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I don't know if you
remember George Pickett,
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George Pickett was
the southern general,
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who led terrible,
could fetter a charge.
00:09:30.07\00:09:33.61
Right. At one end, he was a
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terrible part of the
battle and of course,
00:09:34.80\00:09:37.40
he and Lincoln had
been friends together
00:09:37.43\00:09:39.45
before the civil war. Umm!
00:09:39.48\00:09:41.31
And after civil war,
Lincoln went to Richmond,
00:09:42.37\00:09:45.27
Virginia. Umm!
00:09:45.30\00:09:46.28
And his aide
said that he went into
00:09:46.31\00:09:49.71
Jefferson Davis'
office and shut the doors and
00:09:49.74\00:09:53.89
they were kind of
embarrassed because
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it was a long time.
So finally someone went
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and opened the
door, there they found.
00:09:58.40\00:09:59.74
That great President
of the United States with
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his head on
Jefferson Davis' desk sobbing,
00:10:02.43\00:10:06.62
weeping. Umm!
00:10:07.26\00:10:08.23
And then he
say, he looked up and
00:10:08.24\00:10:09.89
he dried his tears, look I
want to go to George Pickett's
00:10:09.92\00:10:12.08
house and they said,
well he's probably not
00:10:12.11\00:10:14.98
there. He said that's
alright, I don't want to go
00:10:15.01\00:10:16.11
there anyway. Umm!
00:10:16.14\00:10:17.11
So, he went to
George Pickett's house,
00:10:18.01\00:10:19.27
knocked on the door
and George Pickett's
00:10:19.30\00:10:21.57
wife came to the door.
00:10:21.60\00:10:23.06
Umm! And he said, who he was
00:10:23.09\00:10:25.97
and she put her hand
of course to your mouth,
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because you know
what they think, you know.
00:10:27.71\00:10:29.55
Yes. And given all those
00:10:29.58\00:10:31.03
circumstances and out
from behind her skirts,
00:10:31.06\00:10:35.59
peaked little
George Junior Pickett.
00:10:35.62\00:10:38.51
Two years old and
Abraham Lincoln reach down and
00:10:38.54\00:10:41.43
scooped him up. Umm!
00:10:41.46\00:10:42.54
In his arms and you
know, how two year old faces
00:10:42.57\00:10:45.25
are, they could be a
little gluey you know.
00:10:45.28\00:10:47.31
Anyway, that he
planted a great big dewy
00:10:47.34\00:10:49.93
kiss. Umm!
00:10:49.96\00:10:50.93
Right on Abraham
Lincoln's face and
00:10:50.94\00:10:53.39
Abraham Lincoln's face
lit up and then Abraham
00:10:53.42\00:10:55.24
Lincoln said something,
that ought to burn in all
00:10:55.27\00:10:58.49
of hearts. He looked at
little George and he said
00:10:58.52\00:11:01.08
to little George. He
says you tell that daddy is
00:11:01.11\00:11:03.12
yours. That lovable old rascal.
00:11:03.15\00:11:05.99
Umm! That I still love him and
00:11:06.02\00:11:10.31
I forgive him and the
war is not gonna make any
00:11:10.34\00:11:13.12
difference
between us. Oh! Wow. Umm!
00:11:13.15\00:11:15.15
That's an attitude to
forgiveness already now.
00:11:15.18\00:11:18.07
Right. Person still has to
00:11:18.10\00:11:19.50
experience that
forgiveness; we talk
00:11:19.53\00:11:20.90
about that little bit. Umm!
00:11:20.93\00:11:21.90
You see those
attitudes in the Church.
00:11:21.91\00:11:24.20
Right. I have
to stories to tell.
00:11:24.23\00:11:26.59
Right. But one story is,
00:11:26.62\00:11:27.99
the stories of
contrast, so let me tell the bad
00:11:28.02\00:11:31.91
news first. Okay.
00:11:31.94\00:11:33.09
Story. Good news is not good to;
00:11:33.12\00:11:34.92
you know how
bad the bad news is.
00:11:34.95\00:11:36.19
I think you're
right, that's true with the
00:11:36.22\00:11:37.58
gospel. That's right.
00:11:37.61\00:11:38.58
This happened in a
Church that I won't
00:11:41.18\00:11:43.18
mention where, but
it happened in a Church,
00:11:43.21\00:11:46.42
where this small
Church had somebody had
00:11:46.45\00:11:51.52
witnessed to a
person, who had been in prison
00:11:51.55\00:11:54.05
and this person was
out of prison and were
00:11:54.08\00:11:55.92
struggling, he is struggling
poverty there he had a
00:11:55.95\00:11:58.34
family back together
struggling to get their
00:11:58.37\00:11:59.81
life put back together. Umm!
00:11:59.84\00:12:01.02
And in this context,
this person is trying to
00:12:01.05\00:12:03.96
become active in the Church.
00:12:03.99\00:12:05.03
Umm! There was an elder there,
00:12:05.06\00:12:07.33
who looked at this
individual one day and in
00:12:07.36\00:12:10.80
the company of other
people and he said to
00:12:10.83\00:12:12.74
this person. He said,
you are never going to
00:12:12.77\00:12:16.60
mount to
anything in this Church.
00:12:16.63\00:12:18.24
Umm! Can you
imagine the devastation that
00:12:18.27\00:12:20.54
must have caused. Umm!
00:12:20.57\00:12:21.60
He never gonna to
mount anything in the
00:12:21.63\00:12:23.76
Church, I think the
reason that elder said
00:12:23.79\00:12:26.24
that is because he
didn't understand forgiveness
00:12:26.27\00:12:27.64
and forgiveness doesn't
mean you necessarily put
00:12:27.67\00:12:32.11
somebody back into leadership.
00:12:32.14\00:12:33.11
Right. But it does mean that
00:12:33.12\00:12:35.31
they are included and
that you make them part
00:12:35.34\00:12:38.35
of the family again. Right. Umm!
00:12:38.38\00:12:39.52
In contrast to that story.
00:12:42.17\00:12:43.33
Umm! Is another story,
00:12:43.36\00:12:44.69
I won't use the
last name Helen Levy.
00:12:44.72\00:12:46.61
Umm! I was out in North West
00:12:46.64\00:12:48.33
ministries out in the
great pacific North West.
00:12:48.36\00:12:50.71
Yes. Where you're from Kathy.
00:12:50.74\00:12:51.71
Umm! And I was
teaching ministers that were
00:12:51.72\00:12:54.82
coming out of the
schools and one minister that
00:12:54.85\00:12:58.77
they send me.
Minister to be, was this
00:12:58.80\00:13:01.82
couple, he had very
interesting background
00:13:01.85\00:13:04.07
he had been a lawyer.
In fact he had been city
00:13:04.10\00:13:06.18
attorney. Umm!
00:13:06.21\00:13:07.18
And he had grown up
as, in the Church as an
00:13:07.19\00:13:12.32
Adventist and
basically rebuild and went down
00:13:12.35\00:13:14.86
that road and in fact
he told me, he says you
00:13:14.89\00:13:18.09
know, he says I would
stop drinking three months out
00:13:18.12\00:13:20.20
of the year. Just to prove,
00:13:20.23\00:13:21.20
I could stop
drinking kind of a guy.
00:13:21.21\00:13:22.95
Oh! Yes. But he
made enough money
00:13:22.98\00:13:24.66
finally and he
wanted, what he wanted to do.
00:13:24.69\00:13:26.63
He divorced his wife
and there is a whole sad
00:13:26.66\00:13:29.36
story of course. Umm!
00:13:29.39\00:13:30.36
But, he said I wanna
to get a boat to ride up
00:13:30.37\00:13:33.31
and down the Puget
Sound and just lead the life.
00:13:33.34\00:13:35.30
So, he kind was
attracted to young
00:13:35.33\00:13:39.37
Baptist girl and she
was kind of going down same
00:13:39.40\00:13:41.34
road, he was going
and so they started living
00:13:41.37\00:13:43.53
together and they roam
on this boat and going up
00:13:43.56\00:13:46.28
and down the Puget
Sound. You know, the Holy Spirit
00:13:46.31\00:13:48.22
is wonderful, it does wonders,
00:13:48.25\00:13:49.22
he began to work
and live his heart.
00:13:49.23\00:13:52.26
And she said to
him, one day she says,
00:13:52.29\00:13:54.69
we really have to
go to Church somewhere,
00:13:54.72\00:13:56.97
we need to go to
Church and he said.
00:13:57.00\00:13:59.87
Well, yes, I don't
think we can go to any Church
00:13:59.90\00:14:02.72
except an Adventist
Church and so he thought
00:14:02.75\00:14:04.97
he kind of put it off
that way, she kept at it and
00:14:05.00\00:14:07.04
kept begging about it,
so finally she said okay.
00:14:07.07\00:14:08.79
Alright, I know well
there is an Adventist
00:14:08.82\00:14:10.93
Church out here on
one of the islands.
00:14:10.96\00:14:12.97
Umm! And we will go,
00:14:13.00\00:14:14.69
he said you know.
He was just frightened
00:14:14.72\00:14:17.70
to go to that Church,
he said we look shabby,
00:14:17.73\00:14:20.11
we reek the marijuana. Oh! Wow.
00:14:20.14\00:14:23.83
And he says, so we got
the boat drive and they
00:14:23.86\00:14:27.12
started to the
church and he says, it was a
00:14:27.15\00:14:28.71
sunny day and he
looked up there and he says
00:14:28.74\00:14:31.64
here are these
ladies standing outside the
00:14:31.67\00:14:33.73
Church with their
hair all nicely fixed,
00:14:33.76\00:14:35.68
looks like they are
in their 60's or 70's or
00:14:35.71\00:14:38.16
even older and he
says. He just knew that,
00:14:38.19\00:14:41.45
when they walked up
there. These folk were
00:14:41.48\00:14:44.10
just couldn't,
couldn't handle them you know
00:14:44.13\00:14:46.40
and he says. He got up
there and he says those
00:14:46.43\00:14:50.77
ladies took one look
and all their nice Sabbath
00:14:50.80\00:14:53.23
clothes one look at
them and merely through
00:14:53.26\00:14:56.58
their arms around Levy
hugged her and told how
00:14:56.61\00:15:00.45
glad they were to see
him and her and made over
00:15:00.48\00:15:04.23
them. Umm!
00:15:04.26\00:15:05.23
And the long story
that he said I just
00:15:05.24\00:15:07.39
poured so much love
it brought him back.
00:15:07.42\00:15:08.97
Umm! And they
were both rebaptized.
00:15:09.00\00:15:10.86
Amen. And he is a successful
00:15:10.89\00:15:13.37
minister today. Umm!
00:15:13.40\00:15:14.57
Just it's
amazing, what an attitude
00:15:15.73\00:15:18.39
of forgiveness. Umm!
00:15:18.42\00:15:19.67
Will produce, you
know in human heart.
00:15:19.70\00:15:22.67
In the hearts of
others. That's right.
00:15:22.70\00:15:23.83
That's right. Yes.
00:15:23.86\00:15:24.83
Let's talk about the Church and
00:15:28.47\00:15:29.91
I think that's
what we were saying.
00:15:29.94\00:15:32.93
I think the
Church is got to have
00:15:32.96\00:15:34.08
an attitude to forgive. Umm!
00:15:34.11\00:15:35.35
When people comeback. Umm!
00:15:36.10\00:15:37.32
And you know what if
people go stray again.
00:15:37.35\00:15:41.11
I had a situation that
really illustrated this;
00:15:42.36\00:15:49.30
it was and we
haven't had many Churches,
00:15:49.33\00:15:52.84
so it is very hard to
pick out where this was
00:15:52.87\00:15:54.96
as far as that's concerned.
00:15:54.99\00:15:56.13
But a neighboring
church, there leader in
00:15:56.16\00:16:02.72
that Church, home disintegrated.
00:16:02.75\00:16:06.55
Because of his
getting involved in a fair,
00:16:06.58\00:16:09.16
his Church did the right things,
00:16:10.36\00:16:11.33
appealed to him,
pled with him, please.
00:16:11.34\00:16:13.69
You know don't
go down this road,
00:16:13.72\00:16:15.77
don't head down that way.
00:16:15.80\00:16:17.47
Practice the principles.
Yes, and for whatever
00:16:17.50\00:16:20.44
reason it didn't
work. He chose the
00:16:20.47\00:16:22.76
the wrong road. Umm!
00:16:22.79\00:16:24.00
And they ended up eventually
00:16:24.03\00:16:26.11
disfellowshipping
him and this new wife.
00:16:26.14\00:16:29.11
Some weeks
later or maybe a month
00:16:31.99\00:16:34.16
or so later I forgot
how much time. One Sabbath
00:16:34.19\00:16:37.42
this new couple now shows up
00:16:37.45\00:16:39.89
at our Church. Umm!
00:16:39.92\00:16:41.57
And the elders came to
me, afterwards and they
00:16:42.78\00:16:45.99
said now pastor how
we gonna handle this.
00:16:46.02\00:16:48.51
Right. You
know, how are we gonna
00:16:48.54\00:16:50.23
treat this folk. Umm!
00:16:50.26\00:16:51.65
And I said, well
what do you think Jesus
00:16:52.79\00:16:54.20
would do or what does
the scripture teach us.
00:16:54.23\00:16:56.33
Yes. We must not,
sometimes you know,
00:16:56.36\00:16:58.01
we ask that
question. What would Jesus do,
00:16:58.04\00:16:59.45
we put our own values
as what Jesus would do
00:16:59.48\00:17:02.10
but the real
question is what would the
00:17:02.13\00:17:03.52
scripture teach
us, what Jesus teaches
00:17:03.55\00:17:05.49
the scripture? And we said to
00:17:05.52\00:17:07.98
ourselves well
it means then that
00:17:08.01\00:17:09.65
Jesus would try to
reach them and try to restore
00:17:10.15\00:17:12.35
them back to the
Church family. Right, Umm!
00:17:12.38\00:17:14.73
So, I said well, we
will treat them like any
00:17:14.76\00:17:16.51
other sinner that
walks through these doors.
00:17:16.54\00:17:18.62
We will love them
and that is we work on
00:17:18.65\00:17:21.08
the condolence what's happening,
00:17:21.11\00:17:22.35
because the
devastation is terrible. Right.
00:17:22.38\00:17:24.10
I mean you can
never talk about restoring
00:17:24.13\00:17:27.59
people without
remembering the awfulness
00:17:27.62\00:17:30.49
of what sin has
done and the consequences
00:17:30.52\00:17:33.70
that it causes. Right, Umm!
00:17:33.73\00:17:34.75
Peter never forgot
his rejection of the Lord.
00:17:34.78\00:17:37.32
He didn't. He never forgot,
00:17:38.44\00:17:39.76
what he had done
and it spurred him
00:17:39.79\00:17:41.17
and motivated him
to do all the better
00:17:41.20\00:17:42.99
for the Lord. That's right.
00:17:43.02\00:17:43.99
Our favorite teacher one time
00:17:44.00\00:17:45.96
had said that
really sanctification
00:17:45.99\00:17:48.68
is a deepening repentance.
00:17:48.71\00:17:50.44
Oh! I can see
that. Do you like that?
00:17:50.47\00:17:52.67
I like that. A
deepening sorrow for sin.
00:17:52.70\00:17:55.03
Umm! And not to put you in
00:17:55.06\00:17:57.75
despair, but to keep
you in the right place.
00:17:57.78\00:17:59.65
That's right, time
went on and we had a camp
00:17:59.68\00:18:04.18
meeting and I was
asked to stand down
00:18:04.21\00:18:07.64
and receive people
who were coming and
00:18:07.67\00:18:09.16
response to the call? Umm!
00:18:09.19\00:18:10.42
And this couple
came forward. Umm!
00:18:10.45\00:18:12.76
And so I prayed
with them and they wanted
00:18:12.79\00:18:14.12
me to come out
and visit with them.
00:18:14.15\00:18:15.21
Umm! Before I did that, I went
00:18:15.24\00:18:16.60
to the elders
though I said. Now,
00:18:16.63\00:18:18.36
how shall we
handle this? How shall
00:18:18.86\00:18:20.89
we apply this redemptive
discipline principles.
00:18:20.92\00:18:23.85
Right. So, we came up with
00:18:23.88\00:18:25.46
about 5 or 6
points. First of all we said
00:18:25.49\00:18:27.98
there had to be
genuine repentance,
00:18:28.01\00:18:29.78
now I want to
say. The repentance
00:18:29.81\00:18:31.55
does not mean, I'm
sorry because I caused
00:18:31.58\00:18:33.38
lot of pain. Umm!
00:18:33.41\00:18:34.60
Repentance says, I'm
sorry for what I did and
00:18:34.63\00:18:37.13
if I had to do it over again.
00:18:37.16\00:18:38.19
I would never do it.
I would not do it, Umm!
00:18:38.22\00:18:41.25
I would not do it, you're right.
00:18:41.28\00:18:42.25
So, we wanted to
hear that kind of
00:18:42.42\00:18:44.18
repentance from these folk. Umm!
00:18:44.21\00:18:46.46
And then that they
would be willing to
00:18:46.49\00:18:48.38
express sorrow to the
injured parties. Right.
00:18:48.41\00:18:51.15
And that's
tough, that's not easy.
00:18:51.18\00:18:52.58
Alright. And
that they would then
00:18:52.61\00:18:54.55
be willing to, I left
the Church that they had
00:18:54.58\00:18:58.45
hurt be healed. Umm!
00:18:58.48\00:18:59.62
But that Church, would say yes.
00:18:59.65\00:19:00.70
I think we're
healed enough from you
00:19:00.73\00:19:01.97
to move back. Right.
00:19:02.00\00:19:03.15
In the Church
membership, now let
00:19:03.18\00:19:04.15
me hasten to add. That I believe
00:19:04.16\00:19:05.28
that Jesus can forgive and save
00:19:05.31\00:19:08.55
right on the spot when
repentance is expressed.
00:19:08.58\00:19:11.34
Umm! But, we're talking about
00:19:11.37\00:19:13.12
restoring damage
here. Yes, you're,
00:19:13.15\00:19:15.81
you're dealing with
human minds and feelings
00:19:15.84\00:19:17.59
and you have to go long
a pastor win back trust.
00:19:17.62\00:19:20.56
That's right and, and
there has been a lot of,
00:19:20.59\00:19:22.90
a lot of damage and that we want
00:19:22.93\00:19:24.84
to consult our conference
00:19:24.87\00:19:26.11
leadership too. Umm!
00:19:26.14\00:19:27.23
And what they would
say and then we want to
00:19:27.26\00:19:29.09
say to our own
Church family. Is this gonna
00:19:29.12\00:19:30.79
cause division among
us, are we're ready as a
00:19:30.82\00:19:32.84
Church family to
bring and to redeem
00:19:32.87\00:19:35.44
and restore. These good folk
00:19:35.47\00:19:37.33
and then that there
should be some kind of
00:19:37.36\00:19:39.35
at the Baptism not
explicit either the
00:19:39.38\00:19:42.07
pastor or some
may be. Some kind of
00:19:42.10\00:19:43.34
expression of sorrow. Umm!
00:19:43.37\00:19:46.11
For what's transpire. Oh! Jay,
00:19:46.14\00:19:48.92
that needs to be
done, doesn't it.
00:19:48.95\00:19:50.73
Yes and if those
things are met then
00:19:51.97\00:19:55.27
you begin to see real
repentance take place.
00:19:55.30\00:19:57.39
Umm! So, when I went, I took
00:19:57.42\00:19:59.01
someone with me. Umm!
00:19:59.04\00:20:00.21
We went to visit
and I asked them this
00:20:00.24\00:20:03.88
question about.
How do you feel about
00:20:03.91\00:20:07.23
what you've done?
I never will forget,
00:20:07.26\00:20:08.78
he just broke down
and wept. You know,
00:20:09.75\00:20:12.21
he said and I'm
really sorry, but he said,
00:20:12.24\00:20:14.03
I'm sorry for I
did to God's Church
00:20:14.06\00:20:15.53
and they both
expressed real sorrow
00:20:15.56\00:20:18.20
and repentance.
Their son has said
00:20:18.23\00:20:20.23
why don't you just
break those folk up
00:20:20.26\00:20:21.62
you know and send the back
00:20:21.65\00:20:22.62
the other partners. Umm!
00:20:22.63\00:20:23.79
And I don't have this, I
don't have this on screen.
00:20:24.42\00:20:26.51
But Jeremiah
Chapter 3, if somebody wants
00:20:26.54\00:20:28.37
to read it in
cross reference said with
00:20:28.40\00:20:30.46
Leviticus 24. Umm!
00:20:30.49\00:20:32.77
You'll find that
God says very clearly,
00:20:33.17\00:20:35.86
that if a man
divorces his wife or women
00:20:36.48\00:20:39.23
vice versa and
that individual marries
00:20:40.24\00:20:43.34
another person. Umm!
00:20:43.37\00:20:44.79
That it is an
abomination that, if that
00:20:45.59\00:20:48.29
new marriage. Umm!
00:20:48.32\00:20:49.72
Ends either by
the husband dieing
00:20:50.42\00:20:52.36
or he divorces or vice versa
00:20:52.39\00:20:54.74
Umm! the other one
that is an abomination
00:20:54.77\00:20:57.39
to God for that first husband to
00:20:58.63\00:21:00.75
take that wife
back, who is not been
00:21:00.78\00:21:02.79
married to somebody else. Umm!
00:21:02.82\00:21:04.81
So, it seems like
the scripture is clear,
00:21:05.73\00:21:07.76
once that you got to get on
00:21:07.79\00:21:09.57
going along with life. Right.
00:21:09.60\00:21:11.11
And you got to
focus on that. I think,
00:21:11.14\00:21:13.29
there is a lot
of wisdom to that.
00:21:13.32\00:21:14.37
I'm no
counselor or Psychologist,
00:21:14.40\00:21:15.94
but there is, there is
so much water under the
00:21:15.97\00:21:17.85
bridge and that
kind of thing to try
00:21:17.88\00:21:19.49
break it up. Right.
00:21:19.52\00:21:20.70
Put it back
together. Right. Right.
00:21:20.73\00:21:21.70
So, the scripture
seems to be clear about that.
00:21:21.71\00:21:23.64
But let me hasten
back to where we were with
00:21:23.67\00:21:26.08
what was happening here. Umm!
00:21:26.11\00:21:27.29
And so, we spoke
out these other things.
00:21:28.29\00:21:32.11
Umm! And they were both very
00:21:32.14\00:21:33.84
willing for those
kind of things to happen,
00:21:33.87\00:21:35.32
that took a while
for the other Church to
00:21:35.35\00:21:37.64
come to a place,
that it's elders are
00:21:37.67\00:21:39.20
willing to say,
okay we think now.
00:21:39.23\00:21:40.35
We're ready for them
to make that step. Umm!
00:21:40.96\00:21:42.95
But that Church
finally came to that place,
00:21:42.98\00:21:44.31
so we're ready for
them for your Church
00:21:44.34\00:21:46.50
to pull these folk back in. Umm!
00:21:46.53\00:21:49.40
And they wrote
letters of sorrow to injured
00:21:49.43\00:21:52.65
parties, to
ex-spouses, children and made
00:21:52.68\00:21:55.78
verbal apologies to
them and then we had
00:21:55.81\00:21:59.99
our own counsel in the Church
00:22:00.02\00:22:01.64
and they said we're
ready and then they're Baptism
00:22:01.67\00:22:04.18
and this took a
period of time, this was not
00:22:04.21\00:22:06.21
instantaneous. Umm! They
made beautiful statements
00:22:06.24\00:22:09.20
of sorrow. Umm! Now
explicit, everybody knew
00:22:09.23\00:22:11.47
what the story was.
Right They did know. Right
00:22:11.50\00:22:13.13
Those who didn't
know, didn't need to know.
00:22:13.16\00:22:14.25
Right. But, they made
those expressions of sorrow
00:22:14.28\00:22:17.81
and to my knowledge are
still functioning in the Church,
00:22:17.84\00:22:21.14
so then, and then the
elders came to me with this
00:22:21.17\00:22:24.98
question, what if this
new marriage breaks up. Umm!
00:22:25.01\00:22:27.83
I can refer them back to
Jesus. Seven times. Seven
00:22:27.86\00:22:31.67
times, so I said we got
to be willing to work for
00:22:31.70\00:22:34.51
the repentance again.
Right, Umm! And so that's
00:22:34.54\00:22:36.79
got to be always the
attitude Umm! of the Church.
00:22:36.82\00:22:42.35
Right. Which is expressed
by the way in the parable
00:22:42.38\00:22:44.73
Umm! And then we have
to go to that parable now.
00:22:44.76\00:22:46.71
Okay. And that parable
is found in Mathew 18:23
00:22:46.74\00:22:50.52
to 35. "For this reason
the kingdom of heaven may
00:22:50.55\00:22:54.10
be compared to a certain
king who wished to settle
00:22:54.13\00:22:56.88
accounts with the
slaves. And when he had begun
00:22:56.91\00:22:59.53
to settle them, there
was brought to him one who
00:22:59.56\00:23:02.21
owed him ten thousand
talents. But since he did
00:23:02.24\00:23:04.67
not have the
means to repay, his Lord
00:23:04.70\00:23:06.76
commanded him to be
sold, along with his wife and
00:23:06.79\00:23:09.08
children and all that
he had, and repayment made.
00:23:09.11\00:23:12.30
The slave therefore
falling down prostrated
00:23:12.33\00:23:15.70
himself before him,
saying 'Have patience with me,
00:23:15.73\00:23:18.63
I will repay you
everything.' And the Lord
00:23:18.66\00:23:21.01
of the slave felt
compassion and released him and
00:23:21.04\00:23:24.03
forgave him the debt.
But the slave went out and
00:23:24.06\00:23:27.71
found one of his
fellow slaves who owed him
00:23:27.74\00:23:30.17
a hundred denarii; and
he seized him and began
00:23:30.20\00:23:33.00
to choke him,
saying. 'Pay back what you
00:23:33.03\00:23:34.40
owe.' So the
fellow slave fell down and
00:23:34.43\00:23:37.53
began to entreat him
saying. 'Have patience
00:23:37.56\00:23:40.73
with me and I
will repay you.' He was
00:23:40.76\00:23:44.22
unwilling however, but
went in and threw him in
00:23:44.25\00:23:48.74
prison until he should
pay back what was owed.
00:23:48.77\00:23:51.47
So when his fellow
slaves saw what had
00:23:52.28\00:23:53.64
happened, they were
deeply grieved and they
00:23:53.67\00:23:56.19
came and reported to
their Lord all that had
00:23:56.22\00:23:58.32
happened. Then
summoning him, his
00:23:58.35\00:24:00.04
Lord said to him. 'You
wicked slave, I forgave
00:24:00.07\00:24:02.43
you all that debt
because you entreated
00:24:02.46\00:24:04.21
me. Should you
not have mercy on your
00:24:04.24\00:24:06.78
fellow slave, even
as I had mercy on you?'
00:24:06.81\00:24:09.08
And his Lord moved
with anger, handed him
00:24:09.11\00:24:13.78
over to the torturers
until he should repay all
00:24:13.81\00:24:16.86
that was owed him.
So shall My heavenly
00:24:16.89\00:24:20.16
Father also do to you,
if each of you does not
00:24:20.19\00:24:24.52
forgive his brother
from your heart. "Umm
00:24:24.55\00:24:29.21
It's quite a story
from your heart. Yeah. And I
00:24:29.24\00:24:33.58
really can't we will
come back to that I don't
00:24:33.61\00:24:35.00
think that any of us
can forgive, unless first
00:24:35.03\00:24:38.25
our hearts forgiven our hearts.
00:24:38.28\00:24:39.79
Umm! I'll
connect the prodigal son
00:24:39.82\00:24:41.23
for a second. Umm! I
wanna ask a question.
00:24:41.26\00:24:43.39
We had fun with that
last time. Oh! Yes. When did
00:24:43.42\00:24:50.30
the Father forgive the
prodigal son? Well long
00:24:50.33\00:24:54.63
before he ever came home.
Usually, you will have three
00:24:54.66\00:24:57.37
answers. Umm!
One is well I forgave
00:24:57.40\00:25:00.31
him when he came home.
Umm! Another one say, well
00:25:00.34\00:25:04.16
I forgave him when he
left. I like to suggest that he
00:25:04.19\00:25:10.64
forgave him the day he
was born. Oh! That's, well
00:25:10.67\00:25:16.49
that's a concept I
don't think I thought of.
00:25:16.52\00:25:18.43
We all know our
children grew up and
00:25:18.46\00:25:24.12
there is not ever a
child that doesn't grow up at
00:25:24.15\00:25:26.81
somewhere on the
line doesn't bring some
00:25:26.84\00:25:29.41
disappointment
paying to parents part
00:25:29.44\00:25:31.27
apparently but I
think the forgiveness is
00:25:31.30\00:25:35.14
already in the parents
heart, ready to forgive
00:25:35.17\00:25:38.06
now, let me say
because sometimes you can
00:25:38.09\00:25:40.74
misunderstand this,
umm! because I'm not talking
00:25:40.77\00:25:43.42
about indulgence
here. Obviously, the father
00:25:43.45\00:25:45.21
would not indulge his
younger son's rebellion
00:25:45.24\00:25:47.90
because the boy left
home, but I'm talking
00:25:47.93\00:25:52.00
about an attitude, a
position. Our heavenly
00:25:52.03\00:25:56.17
father has forgiveness
in his heart as we came
00:25:56.20\00:26:00.15
into existence. The
scriptures says before
00:26:00.18\00:26:03.20
the foundations of
the earth he already had a
00:26:03.23\00:26:05.87
plan. Yes, that's
right. That made it
00:26:05.90\00:26:08.17
possible for him, he
had forgiveness, but made it
00:26:08.20\00:26:11.07
possible for him to
restore us. So, the fascinating
00:26:11.10\00:26:15.40
thing here is with the
prodigal son, is that the
00:26:15.43\00:26:17.72
prodigal son could have
stayed in the pig pen and never
00:26:17.75\00:26:21.43
experienced his father's
forgiveness. Repentance is
00:26:21.46\00:26:26.42
the path to the
experience of forgiveness. Amen.
00:26:26.45\00:26:30.01
And we got to
ever keep that in focus
00:26:30.04\00:26:32.59
we cannot, we cannot
ever come to the place that
00:26:32.62\00:26:35.49
says well shall we
forgive you so everything
00:26:35.52\00:26:37.24
is alright, but the
person is not repentance.
00:26:37.27\00:26:39.01
Right, you can't
restore a person without
00:26:39.04\00:26:41.96
repentance, without repentant.
We played beside little
00:26:41.99\00:26:44.16
bit, I thought
about that some because
00:26:44.19\00:26:45.96
could the father
forgiven, so if, though it
00:26:45.99\00:26:49.86
was there, if the
child had not displayed that
00:26:49.89\00:26:53.49
attitude. It's right,
it's right. So, I again I want
00:26:53.52\00:26:59.09
to say in the little time
that's remaining here that
00:26:59.12\00:27:01.57
forgiveness does not
necessarily, I don't mean
00:27:01.60\00:27:05.07
automatically
restoring leadership in the
00:27:05.10\00:27:06.65
Church. I need to
understand that. Yes.
00:27:06.68\00:27:08.45
There is too much of
okay we have forgiven him, he
00:27:08.48\00:27:11.12
is back and I was
pretty back in leadership that,
00:27:11.15\00:27:13.34
there is two
different issues all together
00:27:13.37\00:27:15.73
leadership and
forgiveness. I want to give
00:27:15.76\00:27:19.12
that there is two kinds
of things that will make our
00:27:19.15\00:27:21.72
father, a heavenly
father hostile in the end of
00:27:21.75\00:27:24.79
judgment, what if we
become a stumbling block
00:27:24.82\00:27:26.08
right and two if we
are unwilling to forgive.
00:27:26.11\00:27:30.67
Ah! Ah! As Jesus
made it very clear about
00:27:30.70\00:27:33.26
that, here is, is a,
is a quick summary of why
00:27:33.29\00:27:39.85
redemptive discipline
needs to happen. First of all
00:27:39.88\00:27:44.21
because judgment is
coming and second of
00:27:44.24\00:27:47.25
all because we want to
bring joy to the father's heart.
00:27:47.28\00:27:50.27
Amen. Thank you brother
Gallimore for joining us. And
00:27:50.30\00:27:53.63
I want you thank you
for joining us as well.
00:27:53.66\00:27:55.39
Join us again next
time On Thinking About Home.
00:27:55.42\00:27:58.25