Welcome to Thinking
about Home. I am Kathy Matthews
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and I am very glad that
you are with us again today.
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We've been discussing
the subject of redemptive
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discipline, redemptive Church
discipline, and we've been
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comparing the principles
there as to how we can use it
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in the home. And with us
again today is Jay Gallimore,
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the Michigan Conference
President of the Seventh-Day
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Adventist Church.
Is that okay, Jay?
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Yeah. It's great. I'm
glad that you are here
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again with us. Thanks.
You can help us to begin to
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understand the process that
we need to go through how to
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use on redemptive discipline.
Yeah, that's very important
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and usually this is the place
of course the people skip to
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the first. We've been one
already on the prevention.
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And last time, we talked
about the three different
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styles of church discipline
and sometimes how that
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affects the home.
Right. And we talked about
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judgmental discipline,
the punishment, satisfied once
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punished, letting that
way to the Day of Judgment,
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and we talked about ostrich
discipline, where people just
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basically abandoned in
the name of compassion. Right.
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Any kind of response to
peoples needs to be restored.
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We talked about David
and Bathsheba. And then we
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talked about
redemptive discipline. Right.
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The attitude that I'm here
to redeem and to restore before
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the Day of Judgment
ever gets here. Anyway,
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God would like to have it.
That's right. And we talked
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about the similarities,
the dissimilarities between
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those two things, and
today we wanna talk about
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as you mentioned already,
the process. Once a person
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has strayed what do you we
do? Right. To bring them back.
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Right. And that's what
we mean by process. Right.
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And we have heart breaking
Church members out there
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and we have some
they don't even understand
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that there is a process and
then over into the family and
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the home, we have heart
breaking parents. And then
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we have parents that don't
understand at all what they
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need to do. Yes. And I think
we can help them on this today.
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I hope, I hope it
would be a blessing. Okay.
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First of all, we have to
ask ourselves a question;
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who is that, that
needs to be redeemed?
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Now first of all of course
we think about the one lost
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sheep. Right. Obviously,
that's the focus of attention
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the individual, who strayed
from the fall, right, and
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needs to be brought
back. But really we are doing
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more than restoring
that individual, you know,
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the scripture refers
the body of Christ as the
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body of Christ. Right.
So, if my thumb is really
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hurt it affects my whole
body Right. And so when one
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member go to stray,
we all hurt. Umm! Umm!
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We cannot just have those
callous indifference. Right.
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But the sentimentalism
brings of. Well, I don't want
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to hurt them at all, really,
you know, I'm so sorry, but
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I don't have to get my
hands dirty. You know, when the
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shepherd, when the shepherd
discovered he had a sheep loss,
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he went to work, I mean,
he was out there in the middle
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of the night. He was trucking
up and down those hills with
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all the snakes and
scorpions. Thank God.
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Yeah, and who ever knows
what else is out there you know
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in the middle of the
night. He is the one that finds
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the sheep and he gets his
hands dirty, so to speak in
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quotes here and finds that
sheep and restores the sheep,
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and restoring sheep is
not necessarily an easy thing
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to do sometimes it's very
difficult. Yeah. And he says,
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follow me. That's right.
And we must add, you know,
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I think you are somewhere
out there on a mountain side
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in the middle of the
night. You are gonna comeback
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with some bruises and
cuts. Right. So, there is pain
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involved. We need to recognize
that. Yeah. It's not always
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bed of roses without
thorns, isn't it? That's right.
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I think you know,
parenting is not only,
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you know I remember
holding my children, I mentioned
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this before you know little
babies and you look in those
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little faces and you
think about all the joy and the
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pleasure that is gonna
bring you, but so you now don't
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think about some of the
pain that every parent has to go
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through if they are going
to redemptively discipline in
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training the children
correctly. So then we are
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really talking about
the necessity of both family
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members and church
members to understand their
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responsibility to
others. That is the where
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responsibility is a big
word. Umm! We have so many
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dysfunctional families today
that's why they are falling
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apart and that's why we
have so much trouble because
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family doesn't function. I
think that's true in a church.
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The church that doesn't
have discipline within it,
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really is going to become
dysfunctional and pretty soon
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it will either look like
some social club, right, or
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something, but it
certainly won't reflect the
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New Testament, the vigor
of the New Testament Church.
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Right, right, evangelism.
That's right. Umm! Umm!
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So we've, first question
we are able to have to ask is,
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who is being
redeemed? Right. Not only the
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individual, but we also
have the name of the Lord Jesus.
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Umm! Umm! We
have the Church family
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and we have the community.
All needs to be redeemed
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for instance.
Community, now you are not
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talking about the
general public community?
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Yeah. What else it?
What do you mean community?
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Well, you know, when somebody
in the church, let's just pull
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something out the air.
Let's say somebody is down
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here shoplifting. Umm! The
community is injured by that.
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Right. And the community
is looking at the church.
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How would the church respond?
Will the church just say,
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well, it doesn't matter
or you know, we don't want
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to be hard. That was
his fault. That's not me.
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Yeah, yeah. We get the
church involved in this for
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the right kind of
thing. Yeah, right.
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Or, they gonna watch
the church and get to redeem
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this person and
restore this person.
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Right. Last time, I used an
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illustration about the person
been writing bad checks for
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instance. I think we
were redeeming the community
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when those merchants got
the money from those bad checks.
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Right. I can understand
that. The church, they sold the
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Church see, in a very
positve role. So, they are
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saying themselves, Oh! The
community is being redeemed
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here. Right. And put back right.
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Did I jump ahead on community
while you were gonna talk about
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redeeming the Lords name.
No, but I think really they go
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together and the most
precious one to all of us
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is the savior, who loves
us, yes, you know not only to
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created us, but he has
redeemed us. And to injure
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him, David caught it
well in his Psalm in Psalm 51,
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Against thee and thee only,
have I sinned, have I sinned.
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He didn't mean he did not
sin against Bathsheba he meant
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he had not sinned against
Nathan in the whole nation
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of Israel. But ultimately
the Lord owns all of those.
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Right. And it was the
Lord himself that he had
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brought grape.
Injured. Injury to it, hurt to.
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Right, right. All
the Heather nations,
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all the Pagans nations around
them, you know, what fun they
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they must have made of
David. They knew what this was
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all about. Right.
Callahan was well known in
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the Middle East
in the name of God.
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When Christians who are
obviously members of the
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Church and are functioning
the Church and we go out and
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we do bad business practices
and we steal from people
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saying that the business
transaction. Who is injured
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there? Right. People
make fun of the Lord.
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They say, Oh! Such and such
is a Christian. Right. You know
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Bring his name down on
the dirt. But they bring the
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Lord down. So when the Church
responses, this is not right,
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and we appeal to you
change his behavior. Right.
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Then the community has to
set up. Right. In the name
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of the Lord is redeemed
because they say, obviously
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as Christians they don't
believe in that because they
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corrected their
member. Umm! Umm! Right.
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Correct that member.
You know, I see that too
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in parents and family because
somehow our child can get an
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idea. Many children
get the idea of being very
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independent. And what
they do, shouldn't involve
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my parents. It's not
you. It's me. Umm! Umm!
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And the parents can endeavor
to get this across to a child.
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Is that? Oh! Yes. What
you, you are mine, or you
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you belong to this
family. Let's put it better way.
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And what you do affects
my life and my reputation and
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somehow we've gotten the
idea that's not important.
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Yeah. And we need to
grasp this as husbands and wives
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as well. You know, what
I, when my wife married me
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she became. Ms. Gallimore.
That's right. And so what I do
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has a big affect on her.
Right. And vice-versa all that
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all the time. And
vice-versa. Right, right.
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So we have another
area. Yes, we want to,
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I just make sure we talk,
I think we talked about the
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injured Church as
well. Okay, alright.
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So I think we talked about.
The next question we want to
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deal with is the concept, we
dealt with a little bit. Am I
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really my brother's keeper?
Right. Do I have, do I really
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have responsibility here?
And I think that answer is,
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yes, when it means lovingly,
confronting, or carefronting
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individual about difficulties.
Straying from the Lord
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it means, yes. When we are
appealing to an individual to
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return to the Church and
return to the Lord Jesus.
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There is probably a time
when it means no, we should
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interpret it at least
in that. Right. Right.
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If we are using force, if
I'm taking in a dull and I,
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I think that it is my
duty to cope forces individual.
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Right. To, we can't force
the will. We should never try.
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But that makes me think
of something, though you are
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talking about force and
the dull mind someone who has
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to make their own decisions
and now responsible for
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themselves between them
and God. That's not exactly
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the way we would do it in
the home when a child is small.
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And we were discussing this
a little bit ago and I thought
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well, what about force?
You know, define force to me.
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And in our
discussion, my question was,
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is chastisement for a
young member of the family for
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the home now. We are
talking about in the home.
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Two year old, three year
old something like that is a,
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is a physical chastisement
force or is it the result.
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Is it consequences?
Well, I think consequence
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is the right word
here. I think we need to help
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young people. They
have to make the choices.
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The choices. Even very
little children. Right.
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Make it choice whether
to put their hand on the hot
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stove or not. Right.
And there is a obvious
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consequences. And there
is obvious consequence here.
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Right or if they are running
out in the street then the
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parent is gonna have to
step and take consequences
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in order to protect the
child really. Right, but I'm not
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talking about that exactly.
I'm talking about when there
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is something coming from
the hand of parent possibly.
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Yes. And the parent is now
used as the tool as, of the
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consequence. Right.
You know, now that we don't
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do in Church discipline.
That's true. It's a different,
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a little bit different. Right.
Application. Okay. So as they
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grow and become responsible
and you know adult now and
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the decisions are between
you and God. Your choices are
00:11:01.17\00:11:03.34
completely. Right. Without
the others. You don't use force.
00:11:03.37\00:11:08.42
Right, and unfortunately
in the middle ages the Church
00:11:08.45\00:11:10.82
didn't quite understand that,
that's why we have such tragic.
00:11:10.85\00:11:13.61
History. History, tragic
history. So then should parents
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have a well thought
out process of redemptive
00:11:16.90\00:11:19.92
discipline. Yes, I think
that's true at the Church.
00:11:19.95\00:11:23.35
Jesus certainly gave the
Church a well thought out
00:11:23.38\00:11:25.77
process for redemptive
discipline and what seemed to
00:11:25.80\00:11:27.90
me that parents would
need to have as well. Umm! Umm!
00:11:27.93\00:11:31.23
I think they are not
ahead of time. Yeah, absolutely
00:11:31.26\00:11:33.45
make a plan. That's
right. Well, let's go to what
00:11:33.48\00:11:35.34
Jesus said, how does
Jesus get into this and how does
00:11:35.37\00:11:37.87
he redeem. And we want
to go to Matthew chapter 18,
00:11:37.90\00:11:40.40
verses 15 and 17 and
share that. Here's what Jesus
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had to say, "If
your brother sins,
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go and reprove him in
private; if he listens to you,
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you have won your brother.
If he does not listen to you,
00:11:51.64\00:11:55.30
take one or two more with
you, so that by the mouth of
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two or three witnesses
every fact may be confirmed.
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And if he refuses to listen
to them, tell it to the church;
00:12:01.48\00:12:05.04
and if he refuses to
listen to the church, let him be
00:12:05.07\00:12:08.13
to you as a taxgatherer."
Now that's a very fascinating
00:12:08.16\00:12:12.92
text that Jesus has and there
are steps here. And I think
00:12:12.95\00:12:13.92
first of all, I want to
say that these steps are not.
00:12:18.16\00:12:22.60
They are not a legalistic
checklist. That its often used
00:12:22.63\00:12:27.10
in the judgmental attitude.
And okay, we made the visit,
00:12:27.13\00:12:30.23
we took to, and so here,
we are here tonight to take
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care of the problem. It's
really a method of pursuit
00:12:33.59\00:12:37.08
of loving hearts, fellow
strugglers, repented sinners
00:12:37.11\00:12:43.50
going after someone else
to bring them home. Amen.
00:12:43.53\00:12:46.90
And we must ever have
that attitude redeem. If that
00:12:47.99\00:12:51.50
attitude ever gets
lost, it doesn't become a
00:12:51.53\00:12:53.50
redemptive, you know. Umm! Umm!
00:12:53.53\00:12:55.30
It becomes, it
becomes something else. And so
00:12:55.33\00:12:59.10
in the family.
Yes. So in the family.
00:12:59.13\00:13:02.05
That's right. Because that
attitude should not be lost or
00:13:02.08\00:13:05.98
it just become judgmental
or ostrich like you were
00:13:06.01\00:13:08.20
talking about before.
Right. That what we really
00:13:08.23\00:13:11.14
have here is that Jesus
is reaching over and he is
00:13:11.17\00:13:14.50
turning up the knob of
influence, this powered
00:13:14.53\00:13:18.29
influence. One of my favorite
authors, Ellen White talks
00:13:18.32\00:13:23.95
about the power of personal
influence and Jesus here
00:13:23.98\00:13:27.62
has given us an example on
the process. How to use that
00:13:27.65\00:13:30.53
influence to redeem people?
That will be something like
00:13:30.56\00:13:33.05
peer pressure. Yes,
in a good way. Yes okay.
00:13:33.08\00:13:36.78
Because peer pressure
seems to have a negative
00:13:36.81\00:13:38.53
connotation, doesn't
it, but in a good way.
00:13:38.56\00:13:40.52
That's right. In fact,
when the principles of God's
00:13:40.55\00:13:43.85
word are being used by
peers. Umm! Umm! It's, it's a
00:13:43.88\00:13:46.68
wonderful thing. This
one is going the other way.
00:13:46.71\00:13:49.08
Right, right.
That's the bad thing.
00:13:49.11\00:13:50.30
So these are series of
appeals that become more intense
00:13:51.32\00:13:55.60
and become more public.
Right. Until a person comes
00:13:55.63\00:13:59.46
to the place they have
to make a choice between the
00:13:59.49\00:14:02.06
community of faith and their
own chosen lifestyle. Right.
00:14:02.09\00:14:06.53
Independent of congregation.
There are three steps
00:14:06.56\00:14:11.18
of course that Jesus gave
us, and we need to talk about
00:14:11.21\00:14:14.34
those three steps we just read
them. First of course is the
00:14:14.37\00:14:17.72
private visit. Jesus says
go to person in private and
00:14:17.75\00:14:23.41
Jesus is very clear about that.
I think he did that for some
00:14:23.44\00:14:26.21
very good reasons.
I can understand that
00:14:26.24\00:14:28.33
in a family life. Do you want
me to talk? Can I talk about it
00:14:28.36\00:14:31.95
just little bit
before you go into that.
00:14:31.98\00:14:33.47
Yeah, we sure. I wish you would.
00:14:33.50\00:14:34.47
Well, I think of when the
time comes and you need to
00:14:34.48\00:14:38.25
take a child or even if a
spouse and husband need to be
00:14:38.28\00:14:41.92
talking that, but I
think largely of the children
00:14:41.95\00:14:46.09
because of my
experiences with my children.
00:14:46.12\00:14:47.81
Strive not to
humiliate. You know, most all
00:14:48.37\00:14:53.31
disciplining on our talks
if it's possible. Do it in a
00:14:53.34\00:14:56.51
private manner. So that
you are not humiliating them,
00:14:56.54\00:14:58.80
you are wining them.
And they can respect that
00:14:58.83\00:15:00.81
when I get older mother
that he has always tried to keep
00:15:00.84\00:15:03.80
me from being so
embarrassed. That's right.
00:15:03.83\00:15:06.49
That communicates
love doesn't it? Yes, yes.
00:15:06.52\00:15:09.87
That's the desire. In
fact, the New Testaments
00:15:09.90\00:15:13.03
twice it says love covers a
multitude sins, multitude sins,
00:15:13.06\00:15:17.59
yes. I love that. Yes
what the heavenly father does.
00:15:17.62\00:15:21.41
You know, he said the savior
and the savior's blood covers
00:15:21.44\00:15:25.97
a multitude of our sins.
I'm grateful to be able to hide.
00:15:26.00\00:15:30.10
I think any repented sinner,
any convicted person of his
00:15:30.13\00:15:33.78
own misbehavior and
they realize the seriousness
00:15:33.81\00:15:37.06
of that. Right. Just
revels under the fact. Amen.
00:15:37.09\00:15:40.84
That they were covered
by the blood of Christ.
00:15:40.87\00:15:42.88
It isn't cheap, isn't it?
It isn't cheap, it costs great
00:15:42.91\00:15:45.64
deal for God do that,
but it demonstrates how
00:15:45.67\00:15:47.62
much he loves me.
Right. So, love does cover
00:15:47.65\00:15:50.48
multitude of sins. It
doesn't seek to make a matter
00:15:50.51\00:15:52.89
public if it can be
avoided. Right. And you know,
00:15:52.92\00:15:57.96
the course of sometimes
are already public matters.
00:15:57.99\00:15:59.98
You can't help
that. You can avoid that.
00:16:00.01\00:16:02.92
Even then if you can fix
it privately it's better.
00:16:02.95\00:16:05.57
I think even that has a
better impact on the community.
00:16:05.60\00:16:10.88
Sometimes it can't be
if it's a public matter.
00:16:10.91\00:16:13.05
Sometimes it can't be
fixed privately. A good
00:16:13.08\00:16:16.37
example of that was Paul and
Peter. And quite a story there
00:16:16.40\00:16:20.84
in the Galatians, and if
you remember the story but
00:16:20.87\00:16:24.01
they have all been down
in a certain place and there
00:16:24.04\00:16:27.36
Peter has been eating
with the Gentiles. Oh! Yes.
00:16:27.39\00:16:29.40
Remember that. Yes.
Just like Paul had been,
00:16:29.43\00:16:32.35
and then the circumcision
party shows up. You know.
00:16:32.38\00:16:35.16
Right. Then Peter
changes. And Peter changed.
00:16:35.19\00:16:37.65
Yeah, right. And
this scripture is clear
00:16:37.68\00:16:42.10
that Paul took him on
publicly and redeem publicly.
00:16:42.13\00:16:44.41
Yes. And I'm sure that
Peter must have repented because
00:16:44.44\00:16:47.81
I think by his
writing, it's obvious that.
00:16:47.84\00:16:50.30
That he did That he did.
00:16:50.33\00:16:51.59
And so there is some things
that need, that have to be
00:16:51.62\00:16:54.86
dealt because we
already in a public issue, but
00:16:54.89\00:16:56.96
the nice thing about
the private thing is that
00:16:57.64\00:17:00.17
it gives, it provides an
opportunity for discovery.
00:17:00.20\00:17:03.99
Umm! Umm! I sometimes
uses illustrations, I said,
00:17:04.02\00:17:06.74
you know, in the
Adventist Church we have
00:17:07.01\00:17:08.57
in gather and we go
around and invite the community
00:17:08.60\00:17:10.90
to help us with our
merciful work, feeding
00:17:10.93\00:17:14.86
the poor and all
those kinds of things.
00:17:14.89\00:17:16.27
So, suppose a member
is driving down the road
00:17:17.03\00:17:20.85
and they see brother
X coming at all places
00:17:21.63\00:17:26.52
of Taron because
in Adventist Church we
00:17:26.55\00:17:27.93
don't believe,
you see drinking and
00:17:27.96\00:17:31.02
That's not good. We
don't worry about them,
00:17:31.54\00:17:33.02
Yeah. Real bad, so, runs
out, you run on the road and
00:17:33.05\00:17:36.99
here's somebody
coming on Taron and appears
00:17:37.02\00:17:40.19
he stumbling when he
because it looks like, M,
00:17:40.22\00:17:42.79
and he got two
strikes against it. Yeah.
00:17:42.82\00:17:44.02
That's right. So you know
what should this person do?
00:17:45.58\00:17:50.12
Well, sometimes what
they do is they go to the
00:17:50.15\00:17:52.51
minister, and they say, Pastor,
00:17:52.54\00:17:54.58
I have to tell you this.
And then they tell you the
00:17:54.61\00:17:58.16
sorrow sorry. Now what
appears to be a sorrow story.
00:17:58.19\00:18:00.97
And then they asks
this question. Right.
00:18:01.30\00:18:02.85
They say, now Pastor what
are you going to do about it?
00:18:02.88\00:18:07.53
And the real
question, I had members do that?
00:18:08.43\00:18:11.88
That I loved, I mean wonderful
members, and I was smiling
00:18:12.39\00:18:16.41
and I would say you know
the real question is, what
00:18:16.44\00:18:19.96
are you going to do about it?
Are you going to do about it?
00:18:19.99\00:18:21.85
I would help
you. I will coach you.
00:18:22.54\00:18:24.19
And gone to that person. Yeah.
00:18:24.22\00:18:25.19
And people need not be
coached how to go. Right.
00:18:25.20\00:18:27.72
They need the elders to
be prepared to help them
00:18:28.16\00:18:29.91
that kind of thing. Right.
Then I seen that when I get
00:18:29.94\00:18:33.13
into that they may
have discovered that this
00:18:33.16\00:18:36.30
individual, you know,
was not in there drinking.
00:18:36.33\00:18:39.35
He may be in their in gathering.
00:18:40.31\00:18:41.67
Well, he may have
had use of telephone.
00:18:42.05\00:18:43.93
Oh me. To call his
place, that's right.
00:18:43.96\00:18:45.80
Now, we give him a benefit
of doubt. That's right or he may
00:18:45.83\00:18:49.32
have, when he came out
stumbled in a mud hole.
00:18:49.35\00:18:52.43
So, you added the
telephone and mud hole together
00:18:52.75\00:18:55.35
and you got something
there. And so this proverb,
00:18:55.38\00:18:58.90
hey, wonderful praise
God, you're okay and there
00:18:58.93\00:19:03.11
have been times when
I've gone to an individual
00:19:03.14\00:19:05.66
and that may be some
similar circumstances.
00:19:05.69\00:19:09.09
And I've said to
them, always take the best
00:19:09.26\00:19:12.26
approach to this. I
always assume the best, Umm!
00:19:13.22\00:19:16.80
and as you are probably
in there, you know, using
00:19:17.07\00:19:19.83
the telephone. And
then, And then you wait look.
00:19:19.86\00:19:23.07
I wait and look.
Do you. Yeah, I do it.
00:19:23.10\00:19:25.33
It was just my
thought. And person would
00:19:25.36\00:19:29.05
sometimes reply, no I
wasn't in there, you can read
00:19:29.08\00:19:33.31
it in the face.
Right. And say, thus say, you
00:19:33.34\00:19:36.29
have, is there something
you need to tell me? Yes.
00:19:36.32\00:19:38.64
You need. I need
your help with. They know
00:19:38.67\00:19:40.83
I love them, you know,
I'm gonna, you are not out
00:19:40.86\00:19:42.88
to get them out, I
have to bring them in,
00:19:42.91\00:19:45.17
right, to help them
with that kind of a thing.
00:19:45.20\00:19:47.15
Okay. So that private
visit does a lot things, okay,
00:19:47.18\00:19:51.29
that way and.
What's the next one
00:19:51.32\00:19:53.61
Well, the next one is
the private, I mean, you take
00:19:53.64\00:19:56.17
two witnesses along
with you. And it really Jesus
00:19:56.20\00:20:00.66
brought that for me in
the Old Testament. Umm! Umm!
00:20:00.69\00:20:02.07
And the ability, the good
thing about that is that it's
00:20:02.10\00:20:07.19
a balance. It's a
balance in check or check in
00:20:07.22\00:20:10.48
balance we must say.
Yes, I can understand this.
00:20:10.51\00:20:12.58
Oh! Let's me tell you
other thing to drinking,
00:20:12.61\00:20:13.96
taking the Adventist Church,
you know, drinking alcohol
00:20:13.99\00:20:17.70
is an issue for
Church discipline. Yes.
00:20:17.73\00:20:20.86
But a vegetarian, being a
vegetarian is not that's the
00:20:22.04\00:20:24.57
matter of choice of education.
So there are some people,
00:20:24.60\00:20:28.55
who may make a bigger
deal out of something and
00:20:28.58\00:20:30.76
then they ought to
make a bigger deal.
00:20:30.79\00:20:32.40
So having some other
people go with you to
00:20:32.72\00:20:34.50
help establish the facts is
very important in the process.
00:20:34.53\00:20:38.86
Umm! Umm! That keeps somebody
00:20:38.98\00:20:40.61
from being unjustly put
in the wrong track, Umm! Umm!
00:20:40.64\00:20:44.06
and it also if there is
a problem is not just one
00:20:44.16\00:20:47.62
persons word against
another. It's, it's established.
00:20:47.65\00:20:50.51
And this is what
you are talking about
00:20:50.88\00:20:52.05
turning up the power.
That's right. Of influence.
00:20:52.08\00:20:54.81
In the first one, say there
is a problem then hopefully
00:20:55.09\00:20:57.56
there is powerful influence,
where influence one to
00:20:57.59\00:21:00.96
one can work, but if doesn't,
you know, if I am really
00:21:00.99\00:21:05.54
in trouble and I need a
help and you can't get to me.
00:21:05.57\00:21:08.39
Umm! Umm! You go get
my brother or you get my
00:21:08.42\00:21:11.79
mother or you get
somebody a dear friend,
00:21:11.82\00:21:14.28
and you bring that person
or two, three of them with me.
00:21:14.31\00:21:16.62
Right. That's power. Umm!
Umm! And it has a powerful
00:21:16.65\00:21:19.65
appeal to us, so.
That's obviously why
00:21:19.68\00:21:23.28
God gave us two
parents. Oh! God, this is
00:21:23.31\00:21:26.53
his preferred plan. I
think so, I think that a
00:21:26.56\00:21:30.49
two appealing kids, you
know, you can always add
00:21:30.52\00:21:33.71
that power, up the power
so to speak in the appeal
00:21:33.74\00:21:37.05
process and try to redeem kids.
00:21:37.08\00:21:38.76
And then we come to the
final one and that is the
00:21:40.10\00:21:43.60
Church fear, you got in
a person saying, no, no,
00:21:43.63\00:21:45.92
I like what I'm doing. I,
you know, this, you might think
00:21:45.95\00:21:49.36
it wrong about,
think it wrong, I fear with
00:21:49.39\00:21:50.88
the church teachers.
That's why you interpreted.
00:21:50.91\00:21:52.84
Yeah. I'm gonna
keep on down this way.
00:21:52.87\00:21:54.87
There is nothing
wrong with what I'm doing.
00:21:54.90\00:21:56.96
And now the
three witnesses also,
00:21:56.99\00:22:00.36
yeah, there is a big problem,
and no appeals are working,
00:22:00.39\00:22:02.89
sweet love is not working,
doing everything you can
00:22:02.92\00:22:05.87
then you go to the church.
Now after what happens here.
00:22:06.49\00:22:10.57
Umm! Umm! Is,
that the Church here is
00:22:10.60\00:22:13.06
it and makes the
decision. May be they fellowship
00:22:13.09\00:22:16.13
somebody or put them on
sin or something to that
00:22:16.16\00:22:18.87
affect or probation
or period of graces.
00:22:18.90\00:22:21.27
I would like to call it.
Right. But there is often a
00:22:21.30\00:22:26.28
step that's missed. What's that?
00:22:26.31\00:22:28.59
Well, Jesus says
this, because right long
00:22:28.62\00:22:31.59
with everything else.
He says if they do not
00:22:31.62\00:22:34.44
listen to the church then
let they be like a tax gather.
00:22:34.47\00:22:39.32
So there needs to be
another step in there.
00:22:39.35\00:22:42.63
Oh! The Church,
everyone needs to
00:22:42.66\00:22:44.69
collectively go. Yes. Okay.
Everyone now is collectively
00:22:44.72\00:22:49.15
appealing. I see.
To this individual.
00:22:49.18\00:22:51.29
So, we are turning up
all the power we've got to
00:22:51.32\00:22:53.94
bring this person
back. All the voices of love.
00:22:53.97\00:22:56.91
Mummy, daddy, elder
brothers, younger one, sisters.
00:22:56.94\00:22:59.56
Everybody is getting in
this. And uncles, grandmas.
00:22:59.59\00:23:01.77
That's right. We all say,
we can't lose you to precious
00:23:01.80\00:23:04.75
turn away from this, whatever.
00:23:04.78\00:23:06.56
Now, you know, Churches
may take different forms,
00:23:06.59\00:23:08.71
I mean it's in delegations.
There may not everybody
00:23:08.74\00:23:10.80
get into the, but the Church
has a plan to try to, only
00:23:10.83\00:23:14.16
then when they say to
the Church, no. Umm! Umm!
00:23:14.19\00:23:17.99
I don't think that
I wanna go this way.
00:23:18.73\00:23:21.42
Only then, do you take
that step that this fellowships
00:23:22.07\00:23:28.26
are promised.
Right. You know, even the
00:23:28.29\00:23:30.34
prodigal son win his
way. The story of the prodigal
00:23:30.37\00:23:35.01
son has so many pictures
to it, but one picture we
00:23:35.04\00:23:41.76
often don't talk
about are the prodigals
00:23:41.79\00:23:45.10
who never come home.
Right. I do you believe though,
00:23:45.13\00:23:50.36
that looking at the story of
the prodigal son for a moment.
00:23:50.82\00:23:53.26
Let the father has
painful it is was for his son to
00:23:55.02\00:23:57.92
leave home. And I think
he left home because the
00:23:57.95\00:24:00.59
father was not
willing to change. Right.
00:24:00.62\00:24:02.94
The father had the
right principles and to change
00:24:02.97\00:24:05.55
the right principles
would be destroyed the home
00:24:05.58\00:24:07.43
that would be no home for the
prodigal son to come back to.
00:24:07.46\00:24:10.05
But, because of father
held firm to his principles and
00:24:10.74\00:24:14.12
even though his child left,
he must have broke his heart.
00:24:14.15\00:24:16.43
Right. The fact that he
was there faithful to his
00:24:16.46\00:24:20.46
principles, gave
an opportunity for the
00:24:20.49\00:24:23.67
prodigal son to come home. Amen.
00:24:23.70\00:24:25.31
So, by being faithful to
our principles actually is a
00:24:25.84\00:24:28.18
more powerful insane
to bring people home.
00:24:28.21\00:24:30.87
So, when he was out
in a pig pens and began a
00:24:30.90\00:24:32.59
member how loving dad
was all those good things.
00:24:32.62\00:24:35.53
Right. And it's
fascinating that he went home
00:24:35.56\00:24:37.09
repentant prodigal. He
is in the home saying, dad,
00:24:37.12\00:24:39.91
okay, I'm back now,
and I know you love me, so
00:24:39.94\00:24:41.62
you have made a
few changes haven't you
00:24:41.65\00:24:43.01
during the last
visit. Absolutely. He came
00:24:43.04\00:24:44.36
home repented. And we
often don't talk about that
00:24:44.39\00:24:46.67
aspect of how he fell on
his knees before the father.
00:24:46.70\00:24:49.19
That's right. You
know, Jay our time
00:24:49.22\00:24:51.54
is running out, you
want mother area is covered.
00:24:51.57\00:24:53.78
Well, I know, we need
to keep going down here
00:24:54.31\00:24:56.13
just a little bit, I
think we are doing okay.
00:24:56.16\00:24:57.68
I won't you make
that prodigal son
00:24:57.71\00:25:00.61
for just a moment.
Okay. Because again we are
00:25:00.64\00:25:02.67
talking about the process.
I want to emphasize this
00:25:02.70\00:25:08.19
point again that some
people think that if you actual
00:25:08.22\00:25:14.44
stick to your principles and
enact loving Church discipline.
00:25:14.47\00:25:18.00
Right. You are actually run
people away. I don't believe
00:25:18.03\00:25:21.16
that Jesus was wrong.
I think Jesus was right.
00:25:21.19\00:25:24.39
That if loving Church
discipline is actually put
00:25:24.42\00:25:27.50
into process that you
will actually see people not
00:25:27.53\00:25:31.53
only stay in the
Church, but you will also redeem
00:25:31.56\00:25:34.37
them and even though
once that leave will be
00:25:34.40\00:25:36.62
attracted back to the
loving community that's there.
00:25:36.65\00:25:39.90
Umm! So Jesus way is
something we should trust.
00:25:39.93\00:25:43.93
We must trust Jesus.
And he didn't give us, you
00:25:43.96\00:25:46.83
know, Jesus himself gave
us this information. Right.
00:25:46.86\00:25:48.65
And yet people just.
Don't want to use it.
00:25:49.32\00:25:52.04
They don't' want to use
that, that kind of thing.
00:25:52.07\00:25:54.61
Okay. One of the challenges
that's happening nowadays
00:25:54.64\00:25:59.06
is that often the Church
is, is what should I say,
00:25:59.09\00:26:03.12
unwilling to dress
it quickly. People need
00:26:03.15\00:26:06.27
dress things
quickly. Don't' let the thing
00:26:06.30\00:26:08.24
roll down the
road. Just build. Yeah.
00:26:08.27\00:26:10.67
Yeah. Otherwise it takes
a lot, it's a lot harder to
00:26:10.70\00:26:14.05
get people redeem,
right, are they may get into
00:26:14.08\00:26:16.53
behavior that's even worse.
Right. You know when you start
00:26:16.56\00:26:19.38
seeing it is when it
needs to be, to be worked with.
00:26:19.41\00:26:23.02
Well, let's if we
recovering everything
00:26:25.74\00:26:27.18
that we want to hear.
I mentioned earlier that
00:26:27.21\00:26:30.70
redemptive discipline is
not just the minister's matter.
00:26:30.73\00:26:32.89
I will need to
emphasis that. It's everybody's.
00:26:32.92\00:26:35.78
Jesus, when he talk at
Matthew 18, did not talk
00:26:36.12\00:26:38.88
about just the disciples
doing redemptive discipline.
00:26:38.91\00:26:43.08
It's everybody is
involved? So we have to
00:26:43.11\00:26:44.96
create both the
culture preventative as well as
00:26:44.99\00:26:47.35
being able to bring people back.
00:26:47.38\00:26:49.48
Titus, talks about
grandmothers in Israel.
00:26:49.93\00:26:51.86
We need grandfathers in Israel.
00:26:52.37\00:26:53.74
We need family
members doing things to help
00:26:53.77\00:26:57.03
people come back. I
again come back to your
00:26:57.06\00:26:59.28
interdependence thing
for we really all need one
00:26:59.31\00:27:02.85
another in this
redemptive process.
00:27:02.88\00:27:05.69
So this fellowshipping
is done in the hope that in
00:27:06.35\00:27:09.70
the absence of Church
fellowship that the airing
00:27:09.73\00:27:12.92
one might become homesick.
Oh, Amen. And come home.
00:27:12.95\00:27:17.05
Amen. That's a
good one to put in.
00:27:17.08\00:27:18.97
This fellowshipping is
never mean that we treat
00:27:19.00\00:27:20.66
people with
disrespect. It is a change in
00:27:20.69\00:27:22.98
the relationship. But,
it is never disrespectful.
00:27:23.01\00:27:27.62
It may mean that there
are not integrated into
00:27:29.82\00:27:31.80
community anymore.
Right. There needs to be sins of
00:27:31.83\00:27:34.58
the difference. Umm!
But, they need to know
00:27:34.61\00:27:38.74
that they are still
loved and the efforts for them.
00:27:38.77\00:27:40.98
Don't ever stop. Amen.
We need to be alert enough.
00:27:41.01\00:27:44.52
Don't need to
recognize the warning signs.
00:27:44.55\00:27:47.04
That's right. Thank
you brother Gallimore.
00:27:47.07\00:27:48.66
We are gonna
talk about forgiveness
00:27:48.69\00:27:49.81
next time, are we? Yes, we are.
00:27:49.84\00:27:51.39
Okay. And I want to
thank you for joining us.
00:27:51.42\00:27:53.78
I hope these things are
going to be useful in your
00:27:53.81\00:27:55.95
home. Join us again
on Thinking about Home.
00:27:55.98\00:27:57.97