Participants: Kathy Matthews, Jay Gallimore
Series Code: TAH
Program Code: TAH000105
|
00:30 Hi, I am Kathy Matthews and this is Thinking
00:33 About Home and I am glad you are back with us again. 00:36 We've been discussing redemptive church 00:39 discipline and we've been trying to give Biblical 00:41 principles in this area and what we are trying 00:43 to do is use these principles in our 00:46 home life and I am sure that there will be things 00:49 that we would be discussing today 00:51 that you can use in the family and we're talking 00:55 with Jay Gallimore, who is the president of 00:57 the Michigan Conference, Michigan Conference of 01:01 Seventh-Day Adventist. And, I want to 01:03 welcome you again Jay. Thank you, glad to be here. 01:06 And I would like for you just give us a 01:08 little bit of review on what we were discussing 01:11 in the family life and the father role and organizing 01:15 the elders and so forth, and then the seriousness 01:17 of that we would like to help our viewers 01:21 with right now. Well, the last time we 01:23 talked about Jesus put more emphasis on 01:26 prevention and what we can do to, to develop love 01:29 in the home, love in the church family, 01:31 right, and not being stormy blocks by living up to 01:33 those things we know what good and right, 01:35 so that we don't have a wrong influence, 01:37 right, and finally the importance of promoting 01:41 the seriousness of being part of the church family 01:44 and the joy being part of church family, so wonderful 01:47 responsibility in the leadership the leaders in 01:49 all of that, right. So, today we're going 01:52 to focus on three different ways the redemptive 01:56 discipline goes on in the church, right. 01:59 And there is only one of those ways that is the 02:01 right way, yes. So, I think what I like to 02:04 do is plunge, right in. Okay, let's start with one. 02:07 Kathy, the one that we want to focus on first is 02:10 judgmental discipline. And this is kind of goes 02:13 on in most peoples mind when they think about 02:15 church discipline. They think of the church 02:18 sitting in trial and they bring some person in, 02:22 right, and we pass judgment and then we punish them 02:26 with some kind of a response, right. 02:29 I would like to suggest to you that, that was never 02:32 meant for the church to do. Now, I hope people will 02:36 stay with me to get the whole picture here, right okay. 02:38 But, the church is really not called at this point in 02:44 its existence to be and the judge and jury and the 02:47 sins of punishing the guilty, right. 02:51 What it is call to do is to redeem people. 02:53 To restore, to restore. Yes, Now I'm hasten 02:55 to add that there is nothing wrong with judgment. 02:57 Most of us would not want to live in a sinful 03:00 society for instance without the police and 03:02 without judges those are very important people 03:05 and we all know the scripture teaches us in the 03:08 context of judgment that someday God is going to 03:11 bring every work into judgment, every secret 03:13 thing, there is coming a judgment in the time. 03:17 And God knows how terrible that judgment day must be, 03:19 it will bring, bring great pain into his heart to 03:22 carry that judgment out and you want to do 03:25 everything you could to keep people out of that 03:26 day of judgment. That's, he wants us 03:28 not to forget it. That's right, and that's 03:30 why he send us only begotten son is to save us 03:34 from the day of judgment. Amen. And so what the 03:36 church is called to do is to cooperate with the savior 03:39 to save people from that day of judgment. 03:42 So, I don't want the people misunderstand 03:43 this, there is nothing wrong with the judgment 03:44 in the proper sins in proper context, but is the 03:48 church call to be in the judgmental discipline. 03:52 Right. And parents have to own their journey, 03:55 judging skills towards Godly judging and so do 03:58 church members. That's right. 04:00 Discernment. Correct discernment, 04:02 a wise discernment, and I, you know, there has been 04:06 lot of unfortunate incidents that have happened under 04:09 judgmental discipline in the church and it's 04:11 caused the lot of people to simply turn away from 04:14 that, there is a story about, about a conference 04:18 president. This happened some years ago long time 04:21 ago and somebody in the church, they saw 04:26 the conference president smoking a cigarette, 04:29 of course in the Adventist Church, we don't smoke, 04:31 as you know and so instead of following the 04:36 Biblical approach you know they went behind 04:39 the persons back and they got a big community 04:41 together and they confronted the conference president, 04:44 were you smoking and so he looked at them and he 04:48 reached his pocket and he pulled out a Vicks inhaler, 04:54 and he said is this possible what you saw. 04:58 Of course everybody is embarrassed, but at the 05:00 other times when somebody saw somebody smoking 05:02 and next time the church business being them to 05:04 fellowship was kind of judgmental. That would be 05:07 a quick action. Yeah, very quick action. 05:10 It's that mind set that has brought a lot of, a lot of 05:14 difficulty, that kind of thinking has produced 05:18 another reaction that I want to call ostrich discipline, 05:22 Ummh, already we're getting into the second one. 05:24 Yes, Ostrich discipline. What do you mean by that? 05:28 Well you know Ostriches stick their head in the 05:30 sand, yes, and that's really what's going on in many 05:35 churches today. Is that many churches 05:38 are saying not my problem, my problem, we don't 05:43 want to go and confront anybody, you know, 05:48 kinds of things well, we confront them, you know, 05:50 they may really leave the church. 05:53 Thus their life is not mine. It's their life, it's a 05:55 private matter, the church has no business involving 05:59 itself and thus, some how society's thinking has 06:02 gotten into the churches thinking, very much so, 06:05 into this area. Very much so. 06:07 And it's causing great difficulty, the church 06:12 like the home we talk about last time, is got to 06:14 have to structure. Yes. And so let me 06:19 give you an illustration and put of this kind of a thing. 06:22 I had a pastor come to me and he said, you know, 06:24 we have a young couple, who are living together 06:26 without the benefit of a marriage, but he says 06:28 I can't move my elders to try to help these 06:30 young people to understand the devastation of this 06:33 because they are shrugging their shoulders and saying 06:36 doesn't matter they gonna get married anyway. 06:38 Oh! My, so, they saw no responsibility toward it. 06:42 No responsibility toward it, didn't see the devastation 06:47 this is causing in the lives of this young people, 06:51 you almost wonder sometimes, is not said 06:55 verbally, but I think publicly said Mr. Turner, 07:02 Ted Turner said not too long go in the public 07:04 news something to the effect that he would like 07:07 to have God update his ten commandments, 07:10 none of you heard that or not. No, I didn't. 07:12 And that he thinks that the seventh commandment 07:15 is no longer needed just God just needs to take it 07:18 out and, so that you know that kind of thing 07:22 does flow sometimes into peoples thinking, 07:25 it certainly influences many, it does not everyone 07:28 of course. Pluralism is a way, as another way of 07:33 describing that, where well you do what you 07:35 wanted to do, we will do what we wanted to do 07:37 it really doesn't really matter, but pluralism is 07:41 really masquerading I think under a false compassion, 07:45 it's not really being compassion. 07:47 People often will say well we don't want to 07:49 hurt anybody, but sometimes that I need to as a father 07:54 need to bring some firm discipline in because 07:57 I do love, right. Look there is a mad truck 08:00 coming down the road and the child is standing 08:03 on the road, that's not the time to say, well 08:05 I don't want to hurt the child, though it is, that's 08:09 a time you yell or shout to do something, 08:11 and your fear motivated at that point. 08:13 You are fear motivated. Sin should make us all 08:17 afraid because it has such terrible consequences 08:21 and we have to think about consequences. 08:22 God is fair, he tells, tells us what those 08:24 consequences are, so we are trying to redeem 08:27 people to get them ready to meet the Lord. 08:29 Well, you know, you just said something sin 08:30 should make us afraid. God should not make us 08:33 so afraid, but sin should make us afraid, so that 08:36 we can run to are deeming God. Amen. 08:38 Amen. That's right. If Ostrich discipline 08:42 becomes prevailing method in the church 08:47 then what we would do is we will lose 08:48 our moral compass. We would be saying to 08:52 our families, the family but it doesn't matter. 08:55 We will be saying to our children that moral 08:58 behavior is not as important as what we say 09:00 this to the Pope. Right. 09:03 We will be saying one thing and living another, 09:05 and the living the other is what will take over 09:08 eventually, absolutely, and actually effect 09:09 what we begin to say. So, you know I even 09:13 watched our position on marriage, the Biblical 09:16 position on marriage being under attack now 09:19 because people do not want to confront say a 09:24 man or woman, who has abandoned their spouse 09:29 for somebody new without any Biblical 09:33 grounds and just said well you know does not be 09:37 judgmental. Right, or just. I have some thought on 09:41 that, so the ostrich discipline is I don't want 09:45 to get involved, it's right, under the name of we are 09:49 having mercy on this people. Correct, we have to ask 09:53 ourselves, is that having mercy or is that a 09:56 sick sentimentalism. Right. And I think 09:59 it's really a sick sentimentalism. 10:01 Yes, it's God calls for people to make decisions 10:04 to follow him. Right. If, in your home or 10:08 my home or any other homes if we say to 10:11 ourselves Oh! I don't ever discipline my kids, 10:16 the real question to be asked is do we really 10:18 love our kids. Right. And more interested 10:21 in our own emotions and our own feelings, right, 10:23 rather than doing what's right. In fact, Paul says we 10:25 know that are earthly father loved us. 10:28 Because they trust us. Yes, because they disciplined us. 10:32 Yes, I don't believe parents want to discipline just to 10:35 punish, right, parents want to discipline to redeem. 10:39 To save Because there is nothing 10:42 more precious again then our kids who are trying to 10:45 redeem, absolutely. And our brothers and 10:46 sisters in Christ, we don't want to lose them, what 10:48 really, what would it be like to be on the sea of glass and 10:55 for somebody, a brother and sister in the church that 10:56 we loved to be missing, because we simply didn't 11:00 have even the Christian grace or the sweet 11:04 courage and it should go together, so the 11:06 sweetness occurred. It should. That's a 11:07 good word to put it. To care front them about 11:12 behavior that eventually. Interesting word you said, 11:15 said, now what was it. I said care front instead of 11:19 confront. I understand, yeah. Which means that you 11:24 there to let them know that you do love them, 11:27 Right. And that's got be more than just words 11:30 that means you got to be willing to sacrifice 11:33 yourself for them in order to redeem them from 11:37 strange behavior. Even no matter how 11:39 they respond. Yes, and you take the risk 11:42 of rejection. Right. Which is very, very tough. 11:44 Man's greatest fear, I hear. About parents, 11:47 the parents have few rejections do you think. 11:48 Oh! mine, it's incredible aren't you a parent. 11:51 Yes. So am I, but there is the 11:55 promises of God that carry us through those 11:57 types and if we hang on to those promises and 12:00 lead the consequences with him. Yes. 12:02 And, we try to develop a Christ life and it says we 12:04 discipline then I think the children can come through. 12:09 Nicely said. Those same principles we need to 12:11 apply in church discipline, the whole, the whole 12:17 concept of church discipline being ignored 12:20 in our western culture is having its effect on 12:25 church growth, now it's often that at least we 12:29 don't want to do church dismiss because we don't 12:30 want to, lose members. Lose members, in fact 12:33 I will never forget a little incident that happen to 12:36 me that we had a situation, where there was a parent 12:41 of some children in our church, grown children, 12:43 this parent was living in a unbiblical kind of a 12:48 situation and we need to be able to find that parent 12:52 and try to reach out to them redeem, elders been 12:54 praying on their knees and so what can we do to 12:56 reach this individual, so we went to the daughters 12:59 and we said to them do you know where your 13:03 parent is and I am asking some others here, so can 13:07 we picked up but and they said well sure we 13:11 don't know where they are and then they became 13:12 actually angry, they said, we don't want you or 13:14 anybody contact them from the church and 13:17 I said, but why. They said because they, if you 13:22 contact them they might leave the church and you 13:25 know never come back. And I said may be we are 13:30 missing something, you know, I said your parent 13:35 right now is not in a safe condition because this 13:42 was an obvious breaking, clear breaking of the ten 13:44 commandment, right, right, what we are talking 13:45 about here. Now some people don't like that, 13:49 but I believe that when David crossed that line 13:52 and he made that choice with Bathsheba. 13:56 How easy wasn't for Nathan too, say something. 13:58 That wasn't easy for Nathan to do that, 13:59 absolutely not. I believe David was in a lost 14:02 condition, but I want people to step back a 14:04 second before they rush the judgment on me right now. 14:06 Right, right. And stood back and behold 14:09 that grace of God, yes, the redemptive grace of God. 14:13 Because what did God do. Oh! first of all, I kept 14:16 David alive because if David had died in the 14:19 mist of that rebellion this was premeditated 14:22 rebellion, right. This wasn't slipping on a banana peel 14:24 going around the corner. Not just being overwhelmed 14:26 and I couldn't help it. Right, this is yeh, 14:28 I calculated this thing now. Yes. 14:30 And so first of all the grace of God keeps David alive. 14:35 Yes. Secondly, the grace of 14:38 God raises up Nathan the prophet. 14:41 So, the grace of God, the Holy Spirit is continuously 14:44 working with David. It is still working to see 14:46 and the Holy Spirit you just nicely said is also 14:51 working on David's own heart. Yes. 14:52 In preparing the way for Nathan to come, but how 14:55 grateful we all are that Nathan said to God, this 14:58 God can take my head off, you know, don't send 15:00 me on this mission, right, don't have me mess 15:03 around with the man and his love life, so this be, 15:05 a little fear of rejection. Yeah, that could be and 15:08 consequences, but Nathan didn't do that because he 15:11 love the Lord and he believe in the Lord and he 15:13 did what God asked him to do. Right. 15:15 So, what Nathan did what God asked him to do, 15:18 David was redeemed and I praise God for that. 15:22 I am glad that God did not let that go, God 15:24 restored David to himself, restored salvation to 15:26 himself, some 51 to grace some, that we all know 15:29 from that. There is redemptive discipline in 15:32 action that's a perfect example of it. And that's 15:36 what God wanted, he don't want to destroy 15:38 David, he want to save David, absolutely, and so. 15:42 And that's the desire of parents and that should be 15:44 desire of the church. That's right, but are we 15:46 glad that God didn't stick his head in the sand. 15:48 Yes. I am, I am. And say what would that 15:51 story look like in the scripture and still we have 15:54 something that we can all identify within and 15:57 understand, so it's really important that the 16:02 sentimental love sick mind set that is so much 16:06 part of the Hollywood culture doesn't really 16:09 matter kind of thing, don't want to hurt anybody, it's 16:11 very important, so that is not take possession of the 16:13 church, right. Otherwise, we don't really 16:16 have compassion, we have something else. 16:18 We don't want to creep into the family. 16:19 That's right. And its there we need to 16:21 recognize it many times if it is there and just get on, 16:24 on our knees before the Lord and ask him to help us. 16:26 That's right for sure. And may be that the 16:30 reason that has taken over so much thinking in the 16:32 church is one reason why in western cultures the 16:35 church is not growing like it needs to grow. 16:37 Right. Because of this kind of a 16:39 thing. Well that turns to me redemptive discipline, 16:42 we talked about that a little bit, but let's go to the 16:44 scripture and see what the scripture says about 16:46 redemptive discipline. This is Matthew 18 verse 11 16:50 and this is really the quote this is the thing "For the 16:53 son of man has come to save that which is lost." 16:57 Matthew 18:11. That's the mission of church we are 17:00 in the business of saving the lost or restoring the loss. 17:03 Now the next text of course is the illustration verses 17:06 12 to 14 "What do you think Jesus says if a man 17:09 has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone 17:10 astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the 17:13 mountains and go and search for the one that is 17:16 straying? And if it turns out that the finds it, truly 17:20 I say to you, he rejoices over it more than the 17:22 ninety-nine which have not gone astray. Thus it is 17:26 not the will of your father who is in heaven that one 17:31 of these little ones perish." The one of those little 17:34 ones is one of our members of our church. 17:36 Right. And that is the theme of 17:38 redemptive discipline; the church is here to redeem 17:41 and to restore. So we want to save as many as 17:44 we can. Now Kathy, there are similarities between 17:49 judgmental discipline, yes, and redemptive 17:51 disciple, the differences and the similarities and 17:54 we need to talk about this for a moment. 17:56 Right. I can see there is some nice scream about 17:59 the possibility of redempting being quiet judgmental, 18:01 Yes. If they don't, if they can't this to learn, what 18:05 you are doing. That's true, that's right. 18:08 In fact sometimes to the guilty or actually look 18:10 like it's judgmental, right. When they have really is not, 18:13 Right. A great deal that, and I know that's painful 18:17 to the person, who is trying to reach them. 18:20 Yes. You know the parent is 18:21 trying to read the child or the spouse is trying to 18:25 reach the spouse it's painful if you're only seeing. 18:29 That's right. As someone, who is judging. 18:31 That's true. And still someone who is trying to 18:33 trying to help. To help and to save you, 18:36 nicely put. Well, let's talk about some of the 18:38 similarities first of all between judgmental and 18:41 redemptive discipline approaches. First of all, 18:44 I want to say that may be that I should wait for this 18:48 for the difference, but I need to add it right now. 18:50 Okay, alright. It's the attitude that really 18:54 makes a big difference here, it's the attitude that 18:57 we approach this, but less of the similarities both of 19:01 this involve dealing with guilt and sin for instance, 19:04 so I can't escape that issue. Okay. 19:07 Both make a judgment in regard to specific behavior. 19:12 I remember a situation where we had a, I had 19:15 merchants calling me on the phones, are you a 19:17 pastor of certain such a church, I said yes, so we 19:19 have this check and it's a bad check and I had 19:24 several peoples calling us with the to the individual 19:28 and I said I am getting these bad checks, now 19:31 may be just made a mistake in your check book 19:33 or what happened here, and this individual hung 19:37 his head and said, no he said, I am not doing 19:40 what's right here, so I said well we need to help you 19:45 and I thought him about the spiritual implications 19:46 of that and the elders work with him a year, 19:49 meeting with him on a monthly basis, praying 19:52 with him, encouraging him, he made all of that 19:54 right that is life put back together, all years. 19:57 And to restore to the church. Well he took him time 20:00 to work on that. Well, I mean that they 20:01 would spend a whole year. Yes, the elders. 20:03 Doing this. Yeah. Yeah. Well that's love, you know. 20:06 I know I like that. And that's what I did. 20:10 So you have to make judgment concerning 20:12 specific behavior, you don't like bad checks, 20:14 you know, not purposely and be doing what you 20:19 should be doing both must take decisive steps 20:22 to correct the situation, but if you can't just like the 20:24 situation go, get into do something about it and 20:27 both as we mentioned earlier can be viewed by 20:29 the guilty as punishing and both have eternal 20:32 consequences, the day of judgment that has eternal 20:34 consequences, but what we do redeem people 20:37 before the day of judgment has enormous consequences 20:41 in peoples lives. What are the differences, 20:44 the differences are this that redemptive discipline 20:48 still has the opportunity to restore and reconcile. 20:52 Soon the day of judgment comes, there is no 20:53 opportunity to restore and reconcile when the end 20:56 day of judgment comes. But, now we have that 20:59 opportunity to restore. Now is the time. 21:01 Now is the time to go get the one lost sheep. 21:06 The ultimate goal of redemptive discipline is 21:09 restoration, now I wanna say this clearly this 21:14 restoration while the judgment go is fairness 21:21 and justice, or could you say punishment. 21:25 And punishment, yes. That responds, the 21:27 judgment responds in the end of time. 21:29 Right, but if, if restoration takes place then one can 21:34 avoid certain punishment. In the church. Yes. 21:39 That's true. So, there are so differences 21:41 obviously on how something are handled 21:44 with church discipline. And something you have 21:46 to do as a parent and with young ones, yes, to bring 21:50 them to restoration that will include certain 21:53 punishments to get them there. Yes. 21:56 Not just consequence, not just other consequences, 21:59 but certain punishments. Right, true. 22:02 Well, you are dealing with 2 year old and 6 year 22:04 olds has all the range. But, as you come up 22:07 through the years with maturity of mind and 22:09 character being developed and so forth you can 22:11 allow that decision which you will have to do as an 22:14 adult church member. That's true. Nicely put. 22:18 Now another difference is that the pain that 22:24 redemptive discipline inflicts is compassion 22:29 pleading with the sinner before it goes too far and 22:34 before that sinner is left in the hands of judgment. 22:36 What do you mean by the pain, the redemptive 22:38 discipline inflicts. I think it's pain when 22:42 people are care fronted that word again. 22:44 Oh! Yes. With our sins, those 22:47 painful for David. That's was not easy, I mean, 22:51 this man is sitting in front of the whole nation he is 22:53 the executive ruler of the nation, the political leader. 22:58 You know what I am thinking of though is the 23:00 pain that it causes the person who has to go to 23:04 the individual. We don't talk much about 23:06 Nathan and the pain it caused to him. 23:08 No, no we don't as it, as if is there is no pain with 23:14 the person who is trying to help that it effects them 23:16 not at all. That's right. They have no emotions 23:19 on this, they just want to judge me, as in a 23:22 parenting situation, there is a great deal that you 23:26 have to put in to family life be it in the church or 23:30 the home life. Yes, it's true. That's true. 23:35 Another difference is that the pain redemptive 23:37 disciplines process can often stop if the guilt 23:41 turns away from the sin repents. And that's that 23:45 gets into problems because somebody says 23:46 well, you know, they didn't give such and such 23:50 the same church discipline is that they gave 23:51 somebody else, right. So, they haven't been fair. 23:54 The issue in redemptive discipline is not the 23:57 fairness, there should be always a fair process, but 24:00 not fairness in you gave one of the same 24:03 punishment you give somebody else. The issue 24:05 is to we get them restored to the church. And when 24:08 people respond, right, then you don't have to 24:10 keep on going on with the pain, right. 24:13 And we as parents need to recognize that may be 24:15 there is a time to okay they've learnt, this is what 24:18 they done, this is the decision that made, 24:20 I don't have to go anywhere. Yes true, true. 24:25 The church is also in redemptive discipline the 24:27 church is satisfied when the guilty person is repentant. 24:33 Judgment is satisfied when the guilty person is 24:35 punished. Right, that's interesting how the two 24:39 satisfactions have to, that well just how that is 24:42 different, yeah. But, we got to thinking 24:45 those kinds of terms if we're going to restore true 24:47 redemptive church discipline in our churches 24:50 is because we're happy when that person is restored. 24:54 The church as long as probation last stands with 24:58 its arms wide open like the heavenly father 25:02 calling the guilty from within and without to 25:07 repentants and reconciliation with our heavenly father. 25:11 We are born in need of the savior. 25:15 Amen. And there is never time 25:17 that we stop needing a savior. No, sometimes this 25:21 parents will look to that new born baby all of us 25:24 can remember those precious days, right and 25:30 that every child was born with that need for the savior. 25:33 And it's the mission of the parents to redeem 25:35 their children as is the mission of the church to 25:37 redeem the members. Great parallel, 25:42 great parallel, that's you know more than anything 25:46 in the world I want my children to be saved. 25:50 Amen. I want the love the Lord 25:51 with all their heart, their mind, their soul, 25:53 their strength, I think every Christian parent 25:56 wants that for their children. Absolutely. 25:58 And, but I know that there is another force out 26:00 there that's doing everything that came to 26:01 take them in another direction. That's the same 26:03 in the church, I look at my brothers and sisters in 26:05 the church and I need to say to myself more than 26:07 anything in the world, I want to save, I want them 26:09 with me in the kingdom of heaven. 26:10 Amen. That means I got to be 26:12 willing to pour out the love and a self sacrifice in 26:16 order to draw them back to the savior, if they tend 26:21 to stray, right and the church is to be organized 26:23 in order to be watch over that. I talk last time 26:26 about the elders who are just a little bit on Sabbath 26:29 morning. I didn't talk about what they have to 26:30 do Sabbath afternoon if somebody doesn't show 26:32 to church on Sabbath morning, right, you know 26:34 if you are in business with hundred sheep you 26:36 will be counting your sheep, how come we 26:38 don't count our sheep on Sabbath morning and 26:40 Sabbath afternoon an elder ought to know, 26:43 where his sheep were, I mean, if you ever got, 26:46 if you even been sick and couldn't go to church and 26:50 your husband comes home and what's first 26:55 question goes to your mind. Anybody missed me? 26:58 Yes, you said it, I don't think I've ever 26:59 seen anybody failed to do, though, 27:01 anybody miss me. And, so we want, 27:04 we need to be missed. You know, we need to 27:06 know that we are the part of the family and nobody is 27:08 missing us, if nobody cares. That's sends a message 27:17 that makes it easy to stray. So, we already know 27:21 where the sheep are and they are to be looked after 27:23 and elders have got to be really involved in that and 27:26 very, very important way. So that's will redemptive 27:30 discipline is all about and I want to say that I don't 27:33 believe any church can be serious about true kingdom 27:36 growth, true I am not talking about just 27:38 members on the book I am talking about true 27:41 membership growth. Unless they are serious 27:43 about church discipline and I wonder if we can 27:46 really be truly serious about the family, 27:50 unless we enter and redeem in them. 27:51 I don't know that we can. I thank you Brother Gallimore 27:55 for being here and I thank you 27:57 for being with us. Join us again. |
Revised 2014-12-17