Hi, I am Kathy
Matthews and this is Thinking
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About Home and I am glad
you are back with us again.
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We've been
discussing redemptive church
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discipline and we've
been trying to give Biblical
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principles in this
area and what we are trying
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to do is use
these principles in our
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home life and I am sure
that there will be things
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that we would
be discussing today
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that you can use in the
family and we're talking
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with Jay Gallimore,
who is the president of
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the Michigan Conference,
Michigan Conference of
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Seventh-Day
Adventist. And, I want to
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welcome you again Jay.
Thank you, glad to be here.
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And I would like
for you just give us a
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little bit of review
on what we were discussing
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in the family life and
the father role and organizing
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the elders and so
forth, and then the seriousness
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of that we would
like to help our viewers
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with right now.
Well, the last time we
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talked about Jesus
put more emphasis on
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prevention and what we
can do to, to develop love
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in the home, love
in the church family,
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right, and not being
stormy blocks by living up to
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those things we
know what good and right,
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so that we don't
have a wrong influence,
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right, and finally the
importance of promoting
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the seriousness of being
part of the church family
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and the joy being part of
church family, so wonderful
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responsibility in the
leadership the leaders in
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all of that, right.
So, today we're going
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to focus on three
different ways the redemptive
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discipline goes on
in the church, right.
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And there is only one
of those ways that is the
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right way, yes. So,
I think what I like to
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do is plunge, right in.
Okay, let's start with one.
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Kathy, the one that we
want to focus on first is
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judgmental discipline.
And this is kind of goes
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on in most peoples
mind when they think about
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church discipline.
They think of the church
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sitting in trial and
they bring some person in,
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right, and we pass
judgment and then we punish them
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with some kind of
a response, right.
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I would like to suggest
to you that, that was never
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meant for the church to
do. Now, I hope people will
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stay with me to get the
whole picture here, right okay.
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But, the church is really
not called at this point in
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its existence to be and
the judge and jury and the
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sins of punishing
the guilty, right.
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What it is call to
do is to redeem people.
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To restore, to
restore. Yes, Now I'm hasten
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to add that there is
nothing wrong with judgment.
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Most of us would not
want to live in a sinful
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society for instance
without the police and
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without judges those
are very important people
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and we all know the
scripture teaches us in the
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context of judgment
that someday God is going to
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bring every work into
judgment, every secret
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thing, there is coming
a judgment in the time.
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And God knows how terrible
that judgment day must be,
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it will bring, bring
great pain into his heart to
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carry that judgment
out and you want to do
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everything you could
to keep people out of that
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day of judgment.
That's, he wants us
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not to forget it.
That's right, and that's
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why he send us only
begotten son is to save us
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from the day of
judgment. Amen. And so what the
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church is called to do is
to cooperate with the savior
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to save people from
that day of judgment.
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So, I don't want
the people misunderstand
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this, there is nothing
wrong with the judgment
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in the proper sins in
proper context, but is the
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church call to be in
the judgmental discipline.
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Right. And parents
have to own their journey,
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judging skills towards
Godly judging and so do
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church members. That's right.
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Discernment.
Correct discernment,
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a wise discernment, and
I, you know, there has been
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lot of unfortunate incidents
that have happened under
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judgmental discipline
in the church and it's
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caused the lot of
people to simply turn away from
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that, there is a story
about, about a conference
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president. This happened
some years ago long time
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ago and somebody in
the church, they saw
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the conference
president smoking a cigarette,
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of course in the Adventist
Church, we don't smoke,
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as you know and so
instead of following the
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Biblical approach
you know they went behind
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the persons back and
they got a big community
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together and they confronted
the conference president,
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were you smoking and so
he looked at them and he
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reached his pocket and he
pulled out a Vicks inhaler,
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and he said is this
possible what you saw.
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Of course everybody is
embarrassed, but at the
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other times when
somebody saw somebody smoking
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and next time the
church business being them to
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fellowship was kind of
judgmental. That would be
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a quick action.
Yeah, very quick action.
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It's that mind set that
has brought a lot of, a lot of
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difficulty, that kind
of thinking has produced
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another reaction that I
want to call ostrich discipline,
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Ummh, already we're
getting into the second one.
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Yes, Ostrich discipline.
What do you mean by that?
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Well you know Ostriches
stick their head in the
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sand, yes, and that's
really what's going on in many
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churches today.
Is that many churches
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are saying not my
problem, my problem, we don't
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want to go and
confront anybody, you know,
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kinds of things well,
we confront them, you know,
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they may really
leave the church.
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Thus their life is not
mine. It's their life, it's a
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private matter, the
church has no business involving
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itself and thus, some
how society's thinking has
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gotten into the
churches thinking, very much so,
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into this area. Very much so.
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And it's causing
great difficulty, the church
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like the home we talk
about last time, is got to
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have to
structure. Yes. And so let me
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give you an illustration
and put of this kind of a thing.
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I had a pastor come to
me and he said, you know,
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we have a young
couple, who are living together
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without the benefit of
a marriage, but he says
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I can't move my
elders to try to help these
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young people to understand
the devastation of this
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because they are shrugging
their shoulders and saying
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doesn't matter they
gonna get married anyway.
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Oh! My, so, they saw no
responsibility toward it.
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No responsibility toward
it, didn't see the devastation
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this is causing in the
lives of this young people,
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you almost wonder
sometimes, is not said
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verbally, but I think
publicly said Mr. Turner,
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Ted Turner said not
too long go in the public
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news something to the
effect that he would like
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to have God update
his ten commandments,
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none of you heard
that or not. No, I didn't.
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And that he thinks
that the seventh commandment
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is no longer needed just
God just needs to take it
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out and, so that you
know that kind of thing
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does flow sometimes
into peoples thinking,
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it certainly influences
many, it does not everyone
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of course. Pluralism is
a way, as another way of
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describing that,
where well you do what you
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wanted to do, we will
do what we wanted to do
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it really doesn't
really matter, but pluralism is
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really masquerading I
think under a false compassion,
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it's not really
being compassion.
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People often will
say well we don't want to
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hurt anybody, but sometimes
that I need to as a father
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need to bring some
firm discipline in because
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I do love, right.
Look there is a mad truck
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coming down the road
and the child is standing
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on the road, that's
not the time to say, well
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I don't want to hurt the
child, though it is, that's
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a time you yell or
shout to do something,
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and your fear
motivated at that point.
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You are fear motivated.
Sin should make us all
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afraid because it has
such terrible consequences
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and we have to
think about consequences.
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God is fair, he
tells, tells us what those
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consequences are, so
we are trying to redeem
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people to get them
ready to meet the Lord.
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Well, you know, you
just said something sin
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should make us
afraid. God should not make us
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so afraid, but sin
should make us afraid, so that
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we can run to are
deeming God. Amen.
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Amen. That's right.
If Ostrich discipline
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becomes prevailing
method in the church
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then what we
would do is we will lose
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our moral compass.
We would be saying to
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our families, the
family but it doesn't matter.
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We will be saying to
our children that moral
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behavior is not as
important as what we say
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this to the Pope. Right.
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We will be saying one
thing and living another,
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and the living the
other is what will take over
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eventually,
absolutely, and actually effect
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what we begin to
say. So, you know I even
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watched our position
on marriage, the Biblical
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position on marriage
being under attack now
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because people do not
want to confront say a
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man or woman, who has
abandoned their spouse
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for somebody new
without any Biblical
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grounds and just said
well you know does not be
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judgmental. Right, or
just. I have some thought on
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that, so the ostrich
discipline is I don't want
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to get involved, it's
right, under the name of we are
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having mercy on this
people. Correct, we have to ask
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ourselves, is that
having mercy or is that a
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sick sentimentalism.
Right. And I think
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it's really a
sick sentimentalism.
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Yes, it's God calls for
people to make decisions
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to follow him.
Right. If, in your home or
00:10:04.70\00:10:08.75
my home or any
other homes if we say to
00:10:08.78\00:10:11.70
ourselves Oh! I don't
ever discipline my kids,
00:10:11.73\00:10:14.48
the real question to
be asked is do we really
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love our kids.
Right. And more interested
00:10:18.78\00:10:21.29
in our own emotions and
our own feelings, right,
00:10:21.32\00:10:23.50
rather than doing what's
right. In fact, Paul says we
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know that are
earthly father loved us.
00:10:25.72\00:10:27.59
Because they trust us. Yes,
because they disciplined us.
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Yes, I don't believe parents
want to discipline just to
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punish, right, parents
want to discipline to redeem.
00:10:35.98\00:10:39.72
To save Because there is nothing
00:10:39.75\00:10:42.61
more precious again then
our kids who are trying to
00:10:42.64\00:10:45.20
redeem, absolutely.
And our brothers and
00:10:45.23\00:10:46.62
sisters in Christ, we
don't want to lose them, what
00:10:46.65\00:10:48.63
really, what would it be like
to be on the sea of glass and
00:10:48.66\00:10:54.87
for somebody, a brother
and sister in the church that
00:10:55.05\00:10:56.85
we loved to be missing,
because we simply didn't
00:10:56.88\00:11:00.80
have even the
Christian grace or the sweet
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courage and it
should go together, so the
00:11:04.32\00:11:06.57
sweetness
occurred. It should. That's a
00:11:06.60\00:11:07.85
good word to put it.
To care front them about
00:11:07.88\00:11:12.21
behavior that eventually.
Interesting word you said,
00:11:12.24\00:11:15.20
said, now what was it. I
said care front instead of
00:11:15.23\00:11:19.18
confront. I understand,
yeah. Which means that you
00:11:19.21\00:11:24.75
there to let them
know that you do love them,
00:11:24.78\00:11:27.93
Right. And that's got
be more than just words
00:11:27.96\00:11:30.44
that means you got to
be willing to sacrifice
00:11:30.85\00:11:33.22
yourself for them in
order to redeem them from
00:11:33.25\00:11:37.37
strange behavior.
Even no matter how
00:11:37.40\00:11:39.82
they respond. Yes,
and you take the risk
00:11:39.85\00:11:42.24
of rejection. Right.
Which is very, very tough.
00:11:42.27\00:11:44.72
Man's greatest fear,
I hear. About parents,
00:11:44.75\00:11:47.18
the parents have few
rejections do you think.
00:11:47.21\00:11:48.61
Oh! mine, it's
incredible aren't you a parent.
00:11:48.64\00:11:51.18
Yes. So am I, but there is the
00:11:51.21\00:11:55.23
promises of God that
carry us through those
00:11:55.26\00:11:57.36
types and if we hang
on to those promises and
00:11:57.39\00:12:00.15
lead the
consequences with him. Yes.
00:12:00.18\00:12:02.13
And, we try to develop a
Christ life and it says we
00:12:02.16\00:12:04.30
discipline then I think
the children can come through.
00:12:04.33\00:12:09.34
Nicely said. Those
same principles we need to
00:12:09.52\00:12:11.90
apply in church
discipline, the whole, the whole
00:12:11.93\00:12:17.19
concept of church
discipline being ignored
00:12:17.22\00:12:20.32
in our western culture
is having its effect on
00:12:20.74\00:12:25.46
church growth, now
it's often that at least we
00:12:25.49\00:12:29.18
don't want to do church
dismiss because we don't
00:12:29.21\00:12:30.62
want to, lose
members. Lose members, in fact
00:12:30.65\00:12:32.99
I will never forget a
little incident that happen to
00:12:33.02\00:12:36.46
me that we had a situation,
where there was a parent
00:12:36.49\00:12:40.43
of some children in
our church, grown children,
00:12:41.36\00:12:43.66
this parent was living
in a unbiblical kind of a
00:12:43.95\00:12:48.24
situation and we need to
be able to find that parent
00:12:48.27\00:12:52.39
and try to reach out to
them redeem, elders been
00:12:52.42\00:12:54.13
praying on their knees
and so what can we do to
00:12:54.16\00:12:56.57
reach this individual,
so we went to the daughters
00:12:56.60\00:12:59.72
and we said to them
do you know where your
00:12:59.75\00:13:03.73
parent is and I am
asking some others here, so can
00:13:03.76\00:13:07.37
we picked up but and
they said well sure we
00:13:07.40\00:13:11.64
don't know where they
are and then they became
00:13:11.67\00:13:12.74
actually angry, they
said, we don't want you or
00:13:12.77\00:13:14.76
anybody contact
them from the church and
00:13:14.79\00:13:17.61
I said, but why. They
said because they, if you
00:13:17.64\00:13:22.05
contact them they might
leave the church and you
00:13:22.08\00:13:25.27
know never come back.
And I said may be we are
00:13:25.30\00:13:30.14
missing something, you
know, I said your parent
00:13:30.17\00:13:34.65
right now is not in a
safe condition because this
00:13:35.88\00:13:42.27
was an obvious breaking,
clear breaking of the ten
00:13:42.30\00:13:44.88
commandment, right,
right, what we are talking
00:13:44.91\00:13:45.90
about here. Now some
people don't like that,
00:13:45.93\00:13:49.46
but I believe that
when David crossed that line
00:13:49.66\00:13:52.84
and he made that
choice with Bathsheba.
00:13:52.87\00:13:55.00
How easy wasn't for
Nathan too, say something.
00:13:56.04\00:13:58.45
That wasn't easy
for Nathan to do that,
00:13:58.48\00:13:59.74
absolutely not. I
believe David was in a lost
00:13:59.77\00:14:02.29
condition, but I
want people to step back a
00:14:02.32\00:14:04.63
second before they rush
the judgment on me right now.
00:14:04.66\00:14:06.85
Right, right. And
stood back and behold
00:14:06.88\00:14:09.61
that grace of God, yes,
the redemptive grace of God.
00:14:09.64\00:14:12.57
Because what did God
do. Oh! first of all, I kept
00:14:13.30\00:14:16.64
David alive because
if David had died in the
00:14:16.67\00:14:19.63
mist of that
rebellion this was premeditated
00:14:19.66\00:14:22.18
rebellion, right. This
wasn't slipping on a banana peel
00:14:22.21\00:14:24.11
going around the corner.
Not just being overwhelmed
00:14:24.14\00:14:26.35
and I couldn't help
it. Right, this is yeh,
00:14:26.38\00:14:28.37
I calculated
this thing now. Yes.
00:14:28.40\00:14:30.09
And so first of all the
grace of God keeps David alive.
00:14:30.80\00:14:35.95
Yes. Secondly, the grace of
00:14:35.98\00:14:38.95
God raises up
Nathan the prophet.
00:14:38.98\00:14:41.38
So, the grace of God, the
Holy Spirit is continuously
00:14:41.90\00:14:44.15
working with David. It
is still working to see
00:14:44.18\00:14:46.16
and the Holy Spirit you
just nicely said is also
00:14:46.52\00:14:49.68
working on
David's own heart. Yes.
00:14:51.18\00:14:52.63
In preparing the way
for Nathan to come, but how
00:14:52.80\00:14:55.16
grateful we all are
that Nathan said to God, this
00:14:55.19\00:14:58.25
God can take my head
off, you know, don't send
00:14:58.28\00:15:00.56
me on this mission,
right, don't have me mess
00:15:00.59\00:15:03.87
around with the man and
his love life, so this be,
00:15:03.90\00:15:05.72
a little fear of rejection.
Yeah, that could be and
00:15:05.75\00:15:08.45
consequences, but Nathan
didn't do that because he
00:15:08.48\00:15:10.71
love the Lord and he
believe in the Lord and he
00:15:11.04\00:15:13.20
did what God
asked him to do. Right.
00:15:13.61\00:15:15.42
So, what Nathan did
what God asked him to do,
00:15:15.45\00:15:18.34
David was redeemed
and I praise God for that.
00:15:18.70\00:15:22.16
I am glad that God
did not let that go, God
00:15:22.19\00:15:24.27
restored David to
himself, restored salvation to
00:15:24.30\00:15:26.87
himself, some 51 to
grace some, that we all know
00:15:26.90\00:15:29.78
from that. There is
redemptive discipline in
00:15:29.81\00:15:32.21
action that's a perfect
example of it. And that's
00:15:32.24\00:15:36.51
what God wanted, he
don't want to destroy
00:15:36.54\00:15:38.55
David, he want to save
David, absolutely, and so.
00:15:38.58\00:15:42.57
And that's the desire of
parents and that should be
00:15:42.60\00:15:44.10
desire of the church.
That's right, but are we
00:15:44.13\00:15:46.17
glad that God didn't
stick his head in the sand.
00:15:46.20\00:15:48.15
Yes. I am, I am.
And say what would that
00:15:48.90\00:15:51.55
story look like in the
scripture and still we have
00:15:51.58\00:15:54.53
something that we can
all identify within and
00:15:54.85\00:15:57.49
understand, so it's
really important that the
00:15:57.52\00:16:02.59
sentimental love sick
mind set that is so much
00:16:02.62\00:16:06.59
part of the Hollywood
culture doesn't really
00:16:06.62\00:16:09.58
matter kind of thing,
don't want to hurt anybody, it's
00:16:09.61\00:16:11.41
very important, so that
is not take possession of the
00:16:11.44\00:16:13.93
church, right.
Otherwise, we don't really
00:16:13.96\00:16:16.29
have compassion, we
have something else.
00:16:16.32\00:16:18.04
We don't want to
creep into the family.
00:16:18.07\00:16:19.62
That's right. And
its there we need to
00:16:19.65\00:16:21.56
recognize it many times if
it is there and just get on,
00:16:21.59\00:16:24.77
on our knees before the
Lord and ask him to help us.
00:16:24.80\00:16:26.70
That's right for
sure. And may be that the
00:16:26.73\00:16:30.41
reason that has taken
over so much thinking in the
00:16:30.44\00:16:32.43
church is one reason
why in western cultures the
00:16:32.46\00:16:35.70
church is not growing
like it needs to grow.
00:16:35.73\00:16:37.90
Right. Because of this kind of a
00:16:37.93\00:16:39.82
thing. Well that turns
to me redemptive discipline,
00:16:39.85\00:16:41.98
we talked about that a
little bit, but let's go to the
00:16:42.01\00:16:44.13
scripture and see what
the scripture says about
00:16:44.16\00:16:46.33
redemptive discipline.
This is Matthew 18 verse 11
00:16:46.36\00:16:50.21
and this is really the
quote this is the thing "For the
00:16:50.87\00:16:53.80
son of man has come to
save that which is lost."
00:16:53.83\00:16:57.57
Matthew 18:11. That's
the mission of church we are
00:16:57.60\00:17:00.46
in the business of saving
the lost or restoring the loss.
00:17:00.49\00:17:03.36
Now the next text of course
is the illustration verses
00:17:03.65\00:17:06.09
12 to 14 "What do you
think Jesus says if a man
00:17:06.12\00:17:09.30
has a hundred sheep,
and one of them has gone
00:17:09.33\00:17:10.96
astray, does he not
leave the ninety-nine on the
00:17:10.99\00:17:13.75
mountains and go and
search for the one that is
00:17:13.78\00:17:16.64
straying? And if it turns
out that the finds it, truly
00:17:16.67\00:17:20.32
I say to you, he
rejoices over it more than the
00:17:20.35\00:17:22.82
ninety-nine which have
not gone astray. Thus it is
00:17:22.85\00:17:26.70
not the will of your
father who is in heaven that one
00:17:26.73\00:17:31.05
of these little ones
perish." The one of those little
00:17:31.08\00:17:34.79
ones is one of our
members of our church.
00:17:34.82\00:17:36.48
Right. And that is the theme of
00:17:36.51\00:17:38.47
redemptive discipline;
the church is here to redeem
00:17:38.50\00:17:40.88
and to restore. So we
want to save as many as
00:17:41.34\00:17:44.56
we can. Now Kathy,
there are similarities between
00:17:44.59\00:17:48.43
judgmental
discipline, yes, and redemptive
00:17:49.35\00:17:51.68
disciple, the differences
and the similarities and
00:17:51.98\00:17:54.64
we need to talk
about this for a moment.
00:17:54.67\00:17:56.29
Right. I can see there
is some nice scream about
00:17:56.32\00:17:59.17
the possibility of redempting
being quiet judgmental,
00:17:59.20\00:18:01.70
Yes. If they don't, if
they can't this to learn, what
00:18:01.73\00:18:05.27
you are doing.
That's true, that's right.
00:18:05.30\00:18:07.48
In fact sometimes to
the guilty or actually look
00:18:08.23\00:18:10.26
like it's judgmental, right.
When they have really is not,
00:18:10.29\00:18:13.66
Right. A great deal
that, and I know that's painful
00:18:13.69\00:18:17.74
to the person, who
is trying to reach them.
00:18:17.77\00:18:20.03
Yes. You know the parent is
00:18:20.25\00:18:21.84
trying to read the child
or the spouse is trying to
00:18:21.87\00:18:25.91
reach the spouse it's
painful if you're only seeing.
00:18:25.94\00:18:28.81
That's right. As
someone, who is judging.
00:18:29.34\00:18:31.14
That's true. And still
someone who is trying to
00:18:31.86\00:18:33.91
trying to help. To
help and to save you,
00:18:33.94\00:18:36.14
nicely put. Well,
let's talk about some of the
00:18:36.45\00:18:38.83
similarities first of
all between judgmental and
00:18:38.86\00:18:41.60
redemptive discipline
approaches. First of all,
00:18:41.63\00:18:44.46
I want to say that may be
that I should wait for this
00:18:44.71\00:18:48.75
for the difference, but
I need to add it right now.
00:18:48.78\00:18:50.72
Okay, alright. It's
the attitude that really
00:18:50.75\00:18:54.79
makes a big difference
here, it's the attitude that
00:18:54.82\00:18:57.45
we approach this, but less
of the similarities both of
00:18:57.48\00:19:01.65
this involve dealing with
guilt and sin for instance,
00:19:01.68\00:19:04.37
so I can't
escape that issue. Okay.
00:19:04.40\00:19:06.29
Both make a judgment in
regard to specific behavior.
00:19:07.13\00:19:10.45
I remember a
situation where we had a, I had
00:19:12.51\00:19:15.59
merchants calling me
on the phones, are you a
00:19:15.62\00:19:17.18
pastor of certain such a
church, I said yes, so we
00:19:17.21\00:19:19.67
have this check and
it's a bad check and I had
00:19:19.70\00:19:24.22
several peoples calling
us with the to the individual
00:19:24.25\00:19:28.27
and I said I am
getting these bad checks, now
00:19:28.53\00:19:31.21
may be just made a
mistake in your check book
00:19:31.24\00:19:33.19
or what happened here,
and this individual hung
00:19:33.48\00:19:37.29
his head and said, no
he said, I am not doing
00:19:37.32\00:19:40.78
what's right here, so I
said well we need to help you
00:19:40.81\00:19:44.92
and I thought him about
the spiritual implications
00:19:45.37\00:19:46.93
of that and the
elders work with him a year,
00:19:46.96\00:19:49.93
meeting with him on a
monthly basis, praying
00:19:49.96\00:19:52.66
with him, encouraging
him, he made all of that
00:19:52.69\00:19:54.88
right that is life put
back together, all years.
00:19:54.91\00:19:57.42
And to restore to the
church. Well he took him time
00:19:57.45\00:20:00.45
to work on that.
Well, I mean that they
00:20:00.48\00:20:01.74
would spend a whole
year. Yes, the elders.
00:20:01.77\00:20:03.90
Doing this. Yeah. Yeah.
Well that's love, you know.
00:20:03.93\00:20:06.25
I know I like that.
And that's what I did.
00:20:06.28\00:20:09.23
So you have to
make judgment concerning
00:20:10.77\00:20:12.24
specific behavior,
you don't like bad checks,
00:20:12.27\00:20:14.86
you know, not
purposely and be doing what you
00:20:14.89\00:20:18.99
should be doing both
must take decisive steps
00:20:19.02\00:20:22.06
to correct the situation,
but if you can't just like the
00:20:22.09\00:20:24.62
situation go, get into
do something about it and
00:20:24.65\00:20:27.44
both as we mentioned
earlier can be viewed by
00:20:27.47\00:20:28.99
the guilty as
punishing and both have eternal
00:20:29.02\00:20:32.06
consequences, the day of
judgment that has eternal
00:20:32.09\00:20:34.41
consequences, but
what we do redeem people
00:20:34.44\00:20:37.11
before the day of judgment
has enormous consequences
00:20:37.14\00:20:40.29
in peoples lives.
What are the differences,
00:20:41.05\00:20:43.69
the differences are this
that redemptive discipline
00:20:44.46\00:20:48.23
still has the opportunity
to restore and reconcile.
00:20:48.26\00:20:52.36
Soon the day of
judgment comes, there is no
00:20:52.39\00:20:53.87
opportunity to restore
and reconcile when the end
00:20:53.90\00:20:56.32
day of judgment
comes. But, now we have that
00:20:56.35\00:20:59.04
opportunity to
restore. Now is the time.
00:20:59.07\00:21:01.56
Now is the time to go
get the one lost sheep.
00:21:01.59\00:21:03.52
The ultimate goal of
redemptive discipline is
00:21:06.16\00:21:09.62
restoration, now I
wanna say this clearly this
00:21:09.65\00:21:14.28
restoration while the
judgment go is fairness
00:21:14.31\00:21:20.48
and justice, or
could you say punishment.
00:21:21.50\00:21:24.49
And punishment,
yes. That responds, the
00:21:25.16\00:21:27.49
judgment responds
in the end of time.
00:21:27.52\00:21:29.86
Right, but if, if restoration
takes place then one can
00:21:29.89\00:21:34.93
avoid certain
punishment. In the church. Yes.
00:21:34.96\00:21:39.08
That's true. So,
there are so differences
00:21:39.11\00:21:41.65
obviously on how
something are handled
00:21:41.68\00:21:44.04
with church discipline.
And something you have
00:21:44.07\00:21:46.40
to do as a parent and
with young ones, yes, to bring
00:21:46.43\00:21:50.30
them to restoration
that will include certain
00:21:50.33\00:21:53.30
punishments to
get them there. Yes.
00:21:53.33\00:21:55.37
Not just consequence,
not just other consequences,
00:21:56.79\00:21:59.14
but certain
punishments. Right, true.
00:21:59.17\00:22:01.79
Well, you are dealing
with 2 year old and 6 year
00:22:02.26\00:22:04.89
olds has all the
range. But, as you come up
00:22:04.92\00:22:07.48
through the years
with maturity of mind and
00:22:07.51\00:22:09.36
character being
developed and so forth you can
00:22:09.39\00:22:11.54
allow that decision
which you will have to do as an
00:22:11.57\00:22:14.25
adult church member.
That's true. Nicely put.
00:22:14.28\00:22:17.56
Now another
difference is that the pain that
00:22:18.97\00:22:24.46
redemptive discipline
inflicts is compassion
00:22:24.49\00:22:28.90
pleading with the sinner
before it goes too far and
00:22:29.49\00:22:33.42
before that sinner is
left in the hands of judgment.
00:22:34.29\00:22:36.65
What do you mean by
the pain, the redemptive
00:22:36.68\00:22:38.68
discipline inflicts.
I think it's pain when
00:22:38.71\00:22:42.00
people are care
fronted that word again.
00:22:42.03\00:22:44.28
Oh! Yes. With our sins, those
00:22:44.31\00:22:47.12
painful for David.
That's was not easy, I mean,
00:22:47.15\00:22:50.90
this man is sitting in
front of the whole nation he is
00:22:51.23\00:22:53.45
the executive ruler of the
nation, the political leader.
00:22:53.58\00:22:57.69
You know what I am
thinking of though is the
00:22:58.29\00:23:00.77
pain that it causes
the person who has to go to
00:23:00.80\00:23:04.36
the individual. We
don't talk much about
00:23:04.39\00:23:06.48
Nathan and the
pain it caused to him.
00:23:06.51\00:23:07.97
No, no we don't as it, as
if is there is no pain with
00:23:08.00\00:23:13.97
the person who is trying
to help that it effects them
00:23:14.00\00:23:16.90
not at all. That's
right. They have no emotions
00:23:16.93\00:23:18.99
on this, they just
want to judge me, as in a
00:23:19.02\00:23:22.78
parenting situation,
there is a great deal that you
00:23:22.81\00:23:26.73
have to put in to family
life be it in the church or
00:23:26.76\00:23:30.03
the home life. Yes,
it's true. That's true.
00:23:30.06\00:23:33.43
Another difference is
that the pain redemptive
00:23:35.08\00:23:37.30
disciplines process
can often stop if the guilt
00:23:37.94\00:23:41.85
turns away from the sin
repents. And that's that
00:23:41.88\00:23:45.50
gets into problems
because somebody says
00:23:45.53\00:23:46.77
well, you know, they
didn't give such and such
00:23:46.80\00:23:50.11
the same church
discipline is that they gave
00:23:50.14\00:23:51.74
somebody else, right.
So, they haven't been fair.
00:23:51.77\00:23:54.11
The issue in
redemptive discipline is not the
00:23:54.65\00:23:57.58
fairness, there should be
always a fair process, but
00:23:57.88\00:24:00.48
not fairness in you
gave one of the same
00:24:00.51\00:24:03.20
punishment you give
somebody else. The issue
00:24:03.23\00:24:05.42
is to we get them
restored to the church. And when
00:24:05.45\00:24:08.13
people respond,
right, then you don't have to
00:24:08.16\00:24:10.16
keep on going on
with the pain, right.
00:24:10.19\00:24:12.59
And we as parents need
to recognize that may be
00:24:13.33\00:24:15.36
there is a time to okay
they've learnt, this is what
00:24:15.39\00:24:18.89
they done, this is
the decision that made,
00:24:18.92\00:24:20.28
I don't have to go
anywhere. Yes true, true.
00:24:20.31\00:24:24.34
The church is also in
redemptive discipline the
00:24:25.55\00:24:27.74
church is satisfied when
the guilty person is repentant.
00:24:27.77\00:24:31.76
Judgment is satisfied
when the guilty person is
00:24:33.18\00:24:35.75
punished. Right,
that's interesting how the two
00:24:35.78\00:24:39.49
satisfactions have to,
that well just how that is
00:24:39.52\00:24:42.69
different, yeah.
But, we got to thinking
00:24:42.72\00:24:45.00
those kinds of terms if
we're going to restore true
00:24:45.03\00:24:47.58
redemptive church
discipline in our churches
00:24:47.98\00:24:49.88
is because we're happy
when that person is restored.
00:24:50.50\00:24:54.19
The church as long as
probation last stands with
00:24:54.94\00:24:58.38
its arms wide open
like the heavenly father
00:24:58.41\00:25:01.48
calling the guilty
from within and without to
00:25:02.21\00:25:07.21
repentants and reconciliation
with our heavenly father.
00:25:07.24\00:25:11.76
We are born in
need of the savior.
00:25:11.79\00:25:15.55
Amen. And there is never time
00:25:15.99\00:25:17.24
that we stop needing a
savior. No, sometimes this
00:25:17.27\00:25:21.90
parents will look to
that new born baby all of us
00:25:21.93\00:25:24.49
can remember those
precious days, right and
00:25:24.52\00:25:28.55
that every child was born
with that need for the savior.
00:25:30.09\00:25:33.26
And it's the mission
of the parents to redeem
00:25:33.29\00:25:35.33
their children as is
the mission of the church to
00:25:35.36\00:25:37.62
redeem the
members. Great parallel,
00:25:37.65\00:25:42.16
great parallel, that's
you know more than anything
00:25:42.64\00:25:46.45
in the world I want
my children to be saved.
00:25:46.48\00:25:50.27
Amen. I want the love the Lord
00:25:50.30\00:25:51.79
with all their heart,
their mind, their soul,
00:25:51.82\00:25:53.54
their strength, I
think every Christian parent
00:25:53.57\00:25:56.00
wants that for their
children. Absolutely.
00:25:56.03\00:25:57.85
And, but I know that
there is another force out
00:25:58.05\00:26:00.01
there that's doing
everything that came to
00:26:00.04\00:26:01.13
take them in another
direction. That's the same
00:26:01.16\00:26:03.22
in the church, I look at
my brothers and sisters in
00:26:03.25\00:26:05.09
the church and I need
to say to myself more than
00:26:05.12\00:26:07.21
anything in the world, I
want to save, I want them
00:26:07.24\00:26:09.41
with me in the
kingdom of heaven.
00:26:09.44\00:26:10.85
Amen. That means I got to be
00:26:10.88\00:26:12.61
willing to pour out the
love and a self sacrifice in
00:26:12.64\00:26:16.50
order to draw them back
to the savior, if they tend
00:26:16.53\00:26:21.10
to stray, right and the
church is to be organized
00:26:21.13\00:26:23.72
in order to be watch
over that. I talk last time
00:26:23.94\00:26:26.06
about the elders who are
just a little bit on Sabbath
00:26:26.09\00:26:29.10
morning. I didn't talk
about what they have to
00:26:29.13\00:26:30.96
do Sabbath afternoon
if somebody doesn't show
00:26:30.99\00:26:32.55
to church on Sabbath
morning, right, you know
00:26:32.58\00:26:34.79
if you are in
business with hundred sheep you
00:26:34.82\00:26:36.82
will be counting
your sheep, how come we
00:26:36.85\00:26:38.26
don't count our sheep
on Sabbath morning and
00:26:38.29\00:26:40.27
Sabbath afternoon
an elder ought to know,
00:26:40.30\00:26:42.85
where his sheep were,
I mean, if you ever got,
00:26:43.12\00:26:45.98
if you even been sick
and couldn't go to church and
00:26:46.70\00:26:50.95
your husband comes
home and what's first
00:26:50.98\00:26:55.29
question goes to your
mind. Anybody missed me?
00:26:55.32\00:26:58.02
Yes, you said it, I
don't think I've ever
00:26:58.05\00:26:59.83
seen anybody
failed to do, though,
00:26:59.86\00:27:01.41
anybody miss
me. And, so we want,
00:27:01.47\00:27:04.24
we need to be
missed. You know, we need to
00:27:04.40\00:27:06.60
know that we are the part
of the family and nobody is
00:27:06.63\00:27:08.81
missing us, if nobody
cares. That's sends a message
00:27:08.84\00:27:16.33
that makes it easy to
stray. So, we already know
00:27:17.07\00:27:21.20
where the sheep are and
they are to be looked after
00:27:21.23\00:27:23.64
and elders have got to be
really involved in that and
00:27:23.92\00:27:26.68
very, very important
way. So that's will redemptive
00:27:26.71\00:27:30.28
discipline is all about
and I want to say that I don't
00:27:30.31\00:27:33.74
believe any church can be
serious about true kingdom
00:27:33.77\00:27:36.75
growth, true I am
not talking about just
00:27:36.78\00:27:38.69
members on the book
I am talking about true
00:27:38.72\00:27:40.99
membership growth.
Unless they are serious
00:27:41.96\00:27:43.74
about church discipline
and I wonder if we can
00:27:43.77\00:27:46.96
really be truly
serious about the family,
00:27:46.99\00:27:48.94
unless we enter
and redeem in them.
00:27:50.10\00:27:51.39
I don't know that we can.
I thank you Brother Gallimore
00:27:51.55\00:27:55.31
for being here and I thank you
00:27:55.34\00:27:56.97
for being with
us. Join us again.
00:27:57.00\00:27:58.55