Welcome to
Thinking About Home. I am
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Kathy Matthews and
I am glad you're back
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with us again,
today. Today we are going to
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discussing
redemptive church discipline.
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Now, that might
not sound like it's
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something that you're
really going to be able
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to use in your home
but you can, because in the
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the Bible there
are so many biblical
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principles in this
area that you are going to
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be able to glean and
use in your home life and
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I believe that you
will be very happy to be
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able to hear what
we are going to present
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today. And, our
guest will be discussing
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these principles with
you and he is the president
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of the Michigan Conference of
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Seventh-day Adventist
and it's Jay Gallimore.
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Welcome Jay.
Well, thank you Kathy,
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it's nice to be
here. I'm thankful that
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you're here and I know
that you do seminars in
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this area and we
are going to try to back
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and forth with the
principles of church
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discipline and how
also that these can be used
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in our home, is that right?
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That's right, I'm
going to let you focus on the
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home, I'm going to
focus on the church part.
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Well, you're gonna
have to help me, I hope.
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Sure. And, I just want
to started with since we
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are gonna look at prevention and
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prevention is so
important in the home,
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what do you think.
Well, let's discuss
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that point first.
Well, I think as my
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mother taught me
when I was a kid you know,
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an ounce of
prevention is worth a pound of
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cure and I saw something
kind of cute this morning
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before we ate.
Yes. It was a little
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sign there that
said you know, you wish
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that you had, had an
ounce of keeping your
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mouth shut rather
than having a pound of
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trying to fix it
after you said it.
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Yes. Or regretting. Oh! My, yes.
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So, that's true in
redemptive discipline,
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in church discipline,
a lot of times people
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focus on the
cure, but they don't see
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the whole scope
of Matthew 18. Ummmm!
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Jesus actually
spends more time on the
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prevention parts.
So, the first thing we
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want to talk about
is, how do we prevent
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people from
getting in trouble. Yes.
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Sheep will
stray, they will stray.
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Yes, yes. And so the question
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is how can we
keep them from straying
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and to do apart on that. Uh huh.
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So, the picture
that Jesus gives us there
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in Matthew chapter
18, that's where most of
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focus is going to be
is of the famous parable
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that most people know
of the one lost sheep.
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Right. And, that's the
thing going out finding
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that sheep, bringing
it back into the safe
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environments of the,
of the pen or the church
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or whatever it is.
Well, how much time
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does a family spend
on endeavoring to prevent
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poor behavior.
Well, I think that's a
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real question for
families, you know
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a lot of times even
parents I think, think
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about well, what can I
do to fix it, but we need
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to think a lot more
about what do we do to
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prevent our children
from getting into difficulty.
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Right, you know, I
was thinking about this is
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and it's not just behavior.
More, how to instill the
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desire for
virtuous living or virtuous
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thinking, it's not
just outward behavior that
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we as, is in either
in the church or in our
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homes, want to
prevent. You know, we don't
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want to just
prevent bad behavior.
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We want to
instill good thinking.
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That's right.
Well, the best, the best
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prevention for bad
behavior is just good
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behavior just like
you said and the joy of
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having a good happy, happy life.
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And, Jesus starts out
bringing a little child
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into this, doesn't
he? Yes, he does, it's
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fascinating the way
he does that and let's
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just turn to
scripture right now. Okay.
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And, just look here
in in Matthew chapter 18,
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and we're going to
look at verses 3-5.
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It says here,
"Truly I say to you, unless
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you're converted and
become like children you
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shall not enter
the kingdom of heaven.
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Whoever then humbles
himself as this child,
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he is the greatest in
the kingdom of heaven.
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And whoever receives
such one, a child in my name
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receives me," Matthew
18:3-5, that's the New
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American Standard
Version. The child here
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of course represents
the members of the church,
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it's a symbol of
the members. Right.
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So, we rightly use
that concept, our Heavenly
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Father, we're all
brothers and sisters in
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Christ, but Jesus
knew that the simple
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creatures that we
are. Yes. That rivalry
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and trouble and
difficulty and the church
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would become
non-functional, which
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is kind of one of
the challenges we have in
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home today. Unless there is
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structure in the
church, unless there is
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discipline in the
church, then the church will
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seize to function and
accomplish it's mission.
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And, you have
more sibling rivalry.
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And more sibling
will end. In the home or
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in the church.
That's right. Right.
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That's often the
truth. If it's not functioning
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that way. So, how
do we, how do we handle
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this prevention
thing? What can the church
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do to really begin
to prevent the children,
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brothers and sisters
from going astray and
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how do we accept new
people coming into the
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church too. You
have a dynamic thing
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going on, you have the
members who are already
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in the church.
Right. And you have new
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people coming in.
You know, human beings
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sometimes do like,
like horses, there is a
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order that they
establish. Did you say
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like what?
Horses. That's like hinds.
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Well, I suppose,
but horses do it too.
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Okay. My daughter
has a horse so.Yes.
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She gets in with a
herd of horses. Okay.
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I don't have a herd.
She had just one horse,
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but. Okay. The
interesting thing is
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that they establish
a kind of, where they
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one another up you
know. Right, right. And we
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tend to do that with
each other, instead of simply
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accepting each other,
first of all as a child
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of God and that's
where it, what it means to be
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converted. And, you
are not talking about
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accepting sin, but
accepting the sinner.
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That's right, when a
person comes into the
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church that new person
is a new baby in Christ.
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Right. And, I
accept that new baby as my
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brother and my
sister. As we do in the home,
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knowing that
they are going to have
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difficulties growing.
That's right, and that
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is one of the most
important things to
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help prevent
fallout, is because the person
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needs to feel accepted
within the church family.
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And, I suppose in the
home, the most important
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thing a child wants
to know is. That they are
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accepted. That's
right, and loved. Right, and
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they and it
transfers, if they are not even,
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if you don't say so
That's true, that's true.
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So we have got to do an
outstanding job teaching
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members to love one
another. When we love
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our children and children
love one another doesn't
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mean that they
accept them in their evil
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behavior. Yes. But it means that
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they're accept them
in order to try to help
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them. Right.
Because we're all poor.
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Right. Sinners
stumbling along together. Right.
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As we are
needing the grace of God.
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And, how we
approach them would make all
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the difference.
So, if we're going to
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prevent people from
going astray, then love has got
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to be at the center of
that, now true converted
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person, if we going
to have people of doing a
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good job of loving one
another, they really got
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to be converted, changed.
Have a heart conversion.
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That's right.
Yes. And, we love the
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Lord Jesus, follow
the follow the Lord Jesus
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I am going to love,
you know I used to tell
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people I would
say, do you know why my
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wife's mother
loves me so much. No.
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We lost her a few,
about a year ago and
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I, we all loved her,
but the reason she loved me
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is because Linda
loved me. I can think of
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another example of
those kinds of things.
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Yeah, and the same
thing, as we love our heavenly
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we love the savior.
Yes. Then we love each other
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because we know, they
love you. I mean, I Know
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you very well. Right.
But you're new a member
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of the church and I
know that Jesus loves you.
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Right. Therefore
you're my brother in Christ.
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Right, right. So,
we have to develop
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family within the
church and that's why I am
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saying when we develop
a family atmosphere within
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the church is much more
difficult with people to
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stray when they get
in trouble. Right, right.
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And, they want to be
held accountable, and
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they don't mind to
be held accountable.
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That's right. By
that, by you. And, we have
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something about stumbling
blocks. Well, this is a
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very interesting
place that Jesus goes now.
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Yes. In fact some of
the strongest language that
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Jesus ever uses is
right here in Matthew 18,
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we ought to go to
that now, here in Matthew
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chapter 18 and we want
to look at, starting with
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verse six here, it
says "but whoever causes one
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of these little ones who
believe in me to stumble,
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it is better for him
that a heavy millstone be hung
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about his neck, and
that he be drowned in the
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depths of the sea. And,
woe to the world because
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of its stumbling blocks!
For it is inevitable that
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stumbling blocks
come; but woe to that man
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through whom the
stumbling block comes!
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If your hand or
your foot causes you to
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stumble, cut it
off, throw it from you,
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it is better for you
to enter life crippled or
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lame, than having
two hands or two feet and
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be cast into the
eternal fire." That's strong.
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That's strong. I
think Jesus is saying
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here to us, you have
to understand how much my
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heavenly Father
loves his children. And,
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I think what he is
saying is this that don't
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be a stumbling
block, but we need to come
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back Kathy and talk
about what it means to
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be a stumbling
block, because I think that
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has some parallels
in the home as well.
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Okay, alright,
alright. But he says don't be
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a stumbling block
because, if you become
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stumbling block and
one of your brothers or
00:09:47.81\00:09:50.45
sisters in the
church falls and loses his
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eternal life
because of what you did.
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You did. You are
going to have to meet my
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father in the day
of Judgment. Alright.
00:09:59.60\00:10:04.01
And then father is
going to be as a judge and
00:10:04.04\00:10:07.39
he will not be very
happy, that's what it's
00:10:07.42\00:10:10.02
saying and that's
a very strong line,
00:10:10.05\00:10:12.06
it's kind of those
scary things in sins, but
00:10:12.09\00:10:14.14
aren't we as family,
don't we guard carefully
00:10:14.17\00:10:18.24
our children, don't
we love them and what
00:10:18.27\00:10:22.75
would make you
more angry quicker than
00:10:22.78\00:10:25.18
anything. Well, I can,
I can think of some things
00:10:25.21\00:10:28.66
that we have gone
through in a family and
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as we have
difficulties with one because it
00:10:30.54\00:10:33.96
might influence the
other to do wrong, that
00:10:33.99\00:10:35.88
bothers me a
great deal. Sure. And,
00:10:35.91\00:10:38.67
I'm certain it does the
heavenly father as well.
00:10:38.70\00:10:41.26
Yes. If we do that
sort of thing to the
00:10:41.29\00:10:42.89
church member. That's right.
00:10:42.92\00:10:44.05
But as I think of a
home life, one of the
00:10:44.08\00:10:47.00
things that disturbs me
the most is if one of the
00:10:47.03\00:10:49.94
youth, or one of the
younger ones is doing
00:10:49.97\00:10:52.37
something that's going
to influence the other one
00:10:52.40\00:10:54.32
and possibly the
younger one. We have.
00:10:54.35\00:10:57.39
Usually the younger
one. Yes, yes, or other kids
00:10:57.42\00:11:00.94
or sometimes even
adults can become terrible
00:11:00.97\00:11:03.14
stumbling blocks.
We have terrible things
00:11:03.17\00:11:05.29
that happen
sometimes in families or from
00:11:05.32\00:11:07.16
people outside
the families. Right.
00:11:07.19\00:11:08.81
That destroy the
spiritual life or the
00:11:08.84\00:11:10.86
development of
children in our society, I think
00:11:10.89\00:11:14.69
rightly so, and we
as as parents. Yes.
00:11:14.72\00:11:17.03
Deeply concerned about
that kind of thing, and
00:11:17.06\00:11:18.92
it brings out a
very severe response.
00:11:18.95\00:11:20.58
Well, and I was just
thinking though in not
00:11:20.61\00:11:22.38
just siblings being one
to another, but a father
00:11:22.41\00:11:24.98
or mother being a
stumbling block to the
00:11:25.01\00:11:26.88
children, there are
those that we met in Russia,
00:11:26.91\00:11:28.95
who, the children would
be in church the parents
00:11:28.98\00:11:31.75
would not and it was
difficult for the child
00:11:31.78\00:11:35.47
to follow. And, so,
and so in homes here in
00:11:35.50\00:11:38.97
the States or the
western worlds. Right. But,
00:11:39.00\00:11:42.65
how do we, how do we
not be a stumbling block,
00:11:42.68\00:11:46.62
now that's the key
question, none of us
00:11:46.65\00:11:47.84
want to be a stumbling
block, but the question
00:11:47.87\00:11:49.23
is this, how do we
define when we are a stumbling
00:11:49.26\00:11:52.56
block obviously
none of us are perfect,
00:11:52.59\00:11:54.27
obviously all of us
are frail and we make
00:11:54.30\00:11:58.57
mistakes and we do
things that influence
00:11:58.60\00:12:00.94
people wrongly at times
where we wish we didn't.
00:12:00.97\00:12:02.98
And many times not
even knowing it. So, Jay,
00:12:03.01\00:12:05.91
how do you define
a stumbling block.
00:12:05.94\00:12:07.70
Well, I think that's
really the crucial issue
00:12:07.73\00:12:09.88
and I think it was
just got to go to the
00:12:09.91\00:12:11.43
scripture to do
that, but before we go to
00:12:11.46\00:12:13.03
the scripture let me
give a little background
00:12:13.06\00:12:14.66
here. In the
early church they had a
00:12:14.69\00:12:17.89
lifestyle issue,
believe it or not. Yes.
00:12:17.92\00:12:20.93
And, it was called
eating food offered
00:12:20.96\00:12:23.13
to idols. Now
you know, we can go
00:12:23.16\00:12:25.11
down to the local
grocery store and you buy
00:12:25.14\00:12:27.49
anything you want,
you don't worry about
00:12:27.52\00:12:28.91
whether it's been
offered to an idol, but in those
00:12:28.94\00:12:30.34
days the
supermarkets practically had
00:12:30.37\00:12:32.20
everything particularly
flesh food offered to
00:12:32.23\00:12:34.34
idols, so you
have, you have a brother
00:12:34.37\00:12:37.49
and sister Jew.
Jewish Christians.
00:12:37.52\00:12:39.71
Right. Raised that
way are what raised
00:12:39.74\00:12:43.46
in their culture and
then then you have a gentile
00:12:43.49\00:12:45.57
Christians coming
into the church. Now,
00:12:45.60\00:12:48.51
fascinatingly
enough those, dear gentile
00:12:48.54\00:12:51.79
Christians have
been bowing down to idols
00:12:51.82\00:12:53.73
and every time
they're eating food offered to
00:12:53.76\00:12:55.73
an idol was a act
of worship. Right.
00:12:55.76\00:12:57.70
To brother and
sister, gentile, Jew it just
00:12:57.73\00:13:00.98
didn't make many
difference you know,
00:13:01.01\00:13:02.55
why, why worry
about it because I mean
00:13:02.58\00:13:06.03
idols were
nothing, I mean if you were
00:13:06.06\00:13:07.80
to give, if you
gave an idol to Apostle
00:13:07.83\00:13:10.35
Paul, he'd melt
the gold down and make
00:13:10.38\00:13:12.32
him some money. Right, right.
00:13:12.35\00:13:14.34
Okay that make a
place to warm his hands
00:13:14.37\00:13:15.34
over or what have
you, but the question was,
00:13:15.35\00:13:18.33
but how shall we
handle this tension within the
00:13:18.36\00:13:20.69
church because, hey,
this is no small thing.
00:13:20.72\00:13:22.91
Right. I mean this
is dealing with your
00:13:22.94\00:13:24.79
everyday life,
when you go down to the
00:13:24.82\00:13:26.18
supermarket, how do we
do it. So they decided to
00:13:26.21\00:13:28.01
get delegates to go
to Jerusalem and there
00:13:28.04\00:13:31.36
they would make a
decision together very
00:13:31.39\00:13:33.99
much like we do in
our own church family
00:13:34.02\00:13:36.00
today. So, when they
went there after they
00:13:36.03\00:13:39.68
got through
talking about all of this,
00:13:39.71\00:13:42.19
then we have the
apostles giving the results of
00:13:42.22\00:13:46.38
that and we are
gonna turn to the scripture
00:13:46.41\00:13:48.50
and pick that up,
"that you abstain from
00:13:48.53\00:13:53.17
things sacrificed
to idols and from blood
00:13:53.20\00:13:55.80
and from things
strangled and from fornication,
00:13:55.83\00:13:58.70
if you keep yourselves
free from such things,
00:13:58.73\00:14:02.21
you will do well.
Farewell." Now, we
00:14:02.24\00:14:05.96
are going to watch
how this, this decision
00:14:05.99\00:14:09.67
that was made by the
collective church, how
00:14:09.70\00:14:12.23
the word stumbling
block is attached to
00:14:12.26\00:14:14.47
that. Right. So,
here is the Christian
00:14:14.50\00:14:16.63
community, the
early Christian community
00:14:16.66\00:14:17.63
and they have to
come together, they made a
00:14:17.64\00:14:19.54
decision on this
issue and now we are gonna
00:14:19.57\00:14:22.50
watch what Paul
says, and what John says
00:14:22.53\00:14:25.26
in the Book of
Revelation, so we want
00:14:25.29\00:14:27.02
to go now to First
Corinthians chapter 8
00:14:27.05\00:14:29.25
and we are gonna
look at verses 1, 4, 9-12.
00:14:29.28\00:14:33.64
Now, here is what
Paul says. Now concerning
00:14:33.67\00:14:35.66
things sacrificed
to idols, we know that
00:14:35.69\00:14:38.92
we all have
knowledge. Knowledge makes
00:14:38.95\00:14:41.16
arrogant, but
love edifies. Therefore
00:14:43.84\00:14:44.81
concerning the eating
of things sacrificed to
00:14:44.82\00:14:46.48
idols, we know that
there is no such things
00:14:46.51\00:14:48.64
as an idol in the
world, and that there is no
00:14:48.67\00:14:51.25
God but one. But food will not
00:14:51.28\00:14:53.86
commend us to
God. We are neither the
00:14:53.89\00:14:57.06
worse, if we do not
eat, nor the better if we
00:14:57.09\00:14:58.22
do eat, nor the
better if we do eat.
00:14:58.25\00:15:01.73
But take care lest
this liberty of yours
00:15:02.42\00:15:04.86
somehow become a,
here it is, stumbling
00:15:04.89\00:15:07.30
block to the weak. Sounds like
00:15:07.33\00:15:10.91
a nursery, see. Yes.
00:15:10.94\00:15:12.73
For if, then the
scripture goes on,
00:15:12.76\00:15:14.53
for if someone sees you,
00:15:14.56\00:15:15.70
who have knowledge, dining in an
00:15:15.73\00:15:17.79
idol's temple,
will not his conscience,
00:15:17.82\00:15:20.24
if he is weak, be strengthened
00:15:20.27\00:15:21.66
to eat things
sacrificed to idols.
00:15:21.69\00:15:23.53
For through your knowledge
00:15:23.56\00:15:27.79
he who is weak is ruined,
00:15:27.82\00:15:30.21
the brother for
whose sake Christ died.
00:15:30.24\00:15:33.09
And, thus, by sinning against
00:15:33.12\00:15:34.34
the brethren and
wounding their conscience
00:15:34.37\00:15:37.18
when it is weak,
you sin against Christ.
00:15:37.21\00:15:40.79
Now, I wanna stop here
before I go into the rest
00:15:40.82\00:15:44.07
of the text we can look out.
00:15:44.10\00:15:45.73
This is a very fascinating text,
00:15:45.76\00:15:47.85
the principle, again Paul nails
00:15:47.88\00:15:50.22
down is simply
this, that we have
00:15:50.25\00:15:53.17
a responsibility
to one another to look
00:15:53.20\00:15:56.78
after each others. Yes.
00:15:56.81\00:15:58.50
Spiritual welfare. Oh!
00:15:58.53\00:15:59.78
He is talking
about being preventive,
00:15:59.81\00:16:01.52
do preventive
discipline if you please.
00:16:01.55\00:16:03.65
Yes, yes. And, so my behavior
00:16:03.68\00:16:05.81
has a well influence
on the rest of the family
00:16:05.84\00:16:08.85
and if I am
openly, unconsciously
00:16:08.88\00:16:12.29
violating
something that the body
00:16:12.32\00:16:14.03
had agreed on. Yes.
00:16:15.27\00:16:16.24
Even though I may say to myself.
00:16:16.25\00:16:17.22
Right. Like some of those
00:16:17.23\00:16:18.20
early Christians must have said.
00:16:18.21\00:16:19.18
Yes. They must have said,
00:16:19.19\00:16:20.44
what difference does it make,
00:16:20.47\00:16:21.64
it doesn't impact my
Christian walk with Jesus,
00:16:21.67\00:16:24.09
if I eat a little
food offered to idols.
00:16:24.12\00:16:26.07
Right. Paul says,
00:16:26.10\00:16:27.07
you missed the point. Yes.
00:16:27.08\00:16:28.05
The point is that your brother,
00:16:28.06\00:16:30.52
who is weak or new in the faith
00:16:30.55\00:16:33.02
may not be able to understand.
00:16:33.05\00:16:36.32
Yes, don't do it for their sake.
00:16:36.35\00:16:38.04
That's right. And, so therefore.
00:16:38.07\00:16:41.04
That's where real love comes in.
00:16:41.07\00:16:42.20
Aah! You know,
00:16:42.23\00:16:43.72
selfless love has to
be there in the heart,
00:16:43.75\00:16:46.05
if you are going
to be able to make
00:16:46.08\00:16:47.15
the decision to do that
for someone else's sake,
00:16:47.18\00:16:48.92
when you see
nothing wrong with it.
00:16:48.95\00:16:50.92
Certainly. See this is really
00:16:50.95\00:16:52.46
teaching our congregations
00:16:52.49\00:16:53.46
how to really
love like Jesus loves.
00:16:53.47\00:16:56.14
Give up self. I like the NIV,
00:16:56.17\00:16:57.54
I think the NIV
says, knowledge puffs up
00:16:57.57\00:17:02.19
that was I have the knowledge,
00:17:02.22\00:17:03.65
this ain't going to hurt me.
00:17:03.68\00:17:04.97
Right, right.
Knowledge puffs up,
00:17:05.00\00:17:07.16
but love builds up.
Yes, yes, satisfies.
00:17:07.19\00:17:11.94
And, that's the great principle.
00:17:11.97\00:17:13.39
Yes. Now, Paul really
00:17:13.42\00:17:14.39
parallels Jesus, because he ends
00:17:14.42\00:17:17.03
this by saying,
if you just go on
00:17:17.06\00:17:18.67
blatantly doing
this disregarding.
00:17:18.70\00:17:20.82
Right. The community of faith,
00:17:20.85\00:17:22.46
behaving in a way
the community of faith
00:17:22.49\00:17:24.67
says we are not to behave.
00:17:24.70\00:17:26.49
Right. Then he says
00:17:26.52\00:17:28.39
very strongly, you sinned
00:17:28.42\00:17:31.03
against Christ,
now that's strong.
00:17:31.06\00:17:34.35
Yes. This is strong.
00:17:34.38\00:17:35.70
We need to, we
need to recognize,
00:17:35.73\00:17:37.74
what we are really
doing, how serious it is,
00:17:37.77\00:17:39.91
both in the
church and in the family,
00:17:39.94\00:17:41.82
if we are sinning against Christ
00:17:41.85\00:17:43.49
when we do this. That's right.
00:17:43.52\00:17:44.66
That needs to
have meaning to us.
00:17:44.69\00:17:46.74
That's right. Well, you know,
00:17:46.77\00:17:48.74
is anything more
precious than our families,
00:17:48.77\00:17:52.29
our husbands and
wives to one another,
00:17:52.32\00:17:55.94
children in the
family. What is more
00:17:55.97\00:17:58.98
precious than
that, I mean you and I
00:17:59.01\00:18:01.45
would give
everything we have in the world
00:18:01.48\00:18:03.10
to save our children,
our husband, our wife.
00:18:03.13\00:18:06.89
God loves his church that way.
00:18:06.92\00:18:11.70
Yes. And, we just cannot
00:18:11.73\00:18:13.18
live as you have said
it so nicely with this
00:18:13.21\00:18:17.24
independent
attitude. Yes. Because
00:18:17.27\00:18:19.73
we were talking a moment ago.
00:18:19.76\00:18:20.73
Now just to go in
a little explanation
00:18:20.74\00:18:22.51
about that, we
were talking about
00:18:22.54\00:18:23.69
we don't need to
become so independent and even
00:18:23.72\00:18:27.14
in the family or the church,
00:18:27.17\00:18:28.31
we need to be interdependent.
00:18:28.34\00:18:30.05
And, that way we
have accountability,
00:18:30.08\00:18:33.75
we have a recognized
love toward one another
00:18:33.78\00:18:37.80
in a relationship. That's right.
00:18:37.83\00:18:39.17
Let's go back to the text,
00:18:39.20\00:18:41.52
the scripture here
and just watch this
00:18:41.55\00:18:42.95
theme as it, as it unfolds
00:18:42.98\00:18:45.37
and we are going to
the Book of Revelation
00:18:45.40\00:18:47.21
here with, with John
00:18:47.24\00:18:49.15
and this is what he has to say,
00:18:49.18\00:18:51.40
actually this is Jesus speaking,
00:18:51.43\00:18:52.82
this is a red
letter in most editions
00:18:52.85\00:18:54.96
and here is what has to say.
00:18:54.99\00:18:56.44
"But I have a few
things against you,
00:18:56.47\00:18:59.25
because you have some there,
00:18:59.28\00:19:01.09
who hold to the
teaching of Balaam,
00:19:01.12\00:19:02.91
who kept teaching Balak
to put a stumbling block
00:19:02.94\00:19:07.25
before the sons of Israel,
00:19:07.28\00:19:08.63
to eat things
sacrificed to idols,
00:19:08.66\00:19:11.10
there it is again
see, and to commit acts
00:19:11.13\00:19:14.03
of immorality. But I have this
00:19:14.06\00:19:16.01
against you, that you tolerate
00:19:16.04\00:19:18.10
the women,
Jezebel, who calls herself
00:19:18.13\00:19:20.24
a prophetess, and she leads my
00:19:20.27\00:19:21.95
bond-servants
astray, that's like the
00:19:21.98\00:19:24.04
sheep going astray, you see.
00:19:24.07\00:19:25.59
So, they commit acts
of immortality and eat
00:19:25.62\00:19:29.51
things offered to
idols. So, this, this thing
00:19:29.54\00:19:32.92
even Jesus himself,
now many years after
00:19:32.95\00:19:35.08
Paul was dead and John
is the last living apostle,
00:19:35.11\00:19:38.20
he ties this thing
to a stumbling block.
00:19:38.23\00:19:41.29
Why? Because the
church has agreed on it,
00:19:41.32\00:19:42.98
to influence the Holy Spirit.
00:19:43.01\00:19:44.48
I think the
scripture is very clear here
00:19:44.51\00:19:47.72
that when the family has things
00:19:47.75\00:19:51.22
they know they have agreed on
00:19:51.25\00:19:52.95
that they
shouldn't do, the church
00:19:52.98\00:19:54.33
has things they
know, they've agreed on,
00:19:54.36\00:19:55.85
under the
inspiration of Holy Spirit
00:19:55.88\00:19:57.47
they shouldn't do. Right.
00:19:57.50\00:19:58.55
Then to openly violate that
00:19:58.58\00:20:00.24
or arrogantly
violate that tears down,
00:20:00.27\00:20:02.91
it doesn't build up
and we could be come
00:20:02.94\00:20:04.42
a stumbling
block, so it comes back
00:20:04.45\00:20:05.86
to being
submissive and interdependent
00:20:05.89\00:20:08.25
upon one another. Right, right,
00:20:08.28\00:20:10.11
you like that don't
you? I do, I like it a lot
00:20:10.14\00:20:12.28
as a matter of fact. Okay.
00:20:12.31\00:20:14.29
Well, I guess we
ought to ask a question,
00:20:14.32\00:20:18.79
what happens in a home Kathy,
00:20:18.82\00:20:20.49
when parents, when parents
00:20:20.52\00:20:24.11
do not uphold
lifestyle issues that are voted
00:20:24.14\00:20:27.81
by the larger church family.
00:20:27.84\00:20:29.16
Right. Where
can we go with that,
00:20:29.19\00:20:31.37
what can we do with it. Yeah.
00:20:31.40\00:20:33.10
You have some practical steps,
00:20:33.13\00:20:36.31
don't you? Yes,
and I, and I will
00:20:36.34\00:20:39.04
come to that in just a moment,
00:20:39.07\00:20:40.04
but I wanna come back to this,
00:20:40.05\00:20:41.36
this thing about
the home again perhaps
00:20:41.39\00:20:44.09
when the best things you know,
00:20:44.12\00:20:45.41
good religion is not
merely taught it's caught.
00:20:45.44\00:20:47.74
Yes, yes. And, and we need
00:20:47.77\00:20:50.56
to be able to
live the right life
00:20:50.59\00:20:52.48
in front of our kids.
If we are telling our kids
00:20:52.51\00:20:55.09
they need to go to
church, but we don't go
00:20:55.12\00:20:56.82
ourselves for
instance. That's right.
00:20:56.85\00:20:58.60
Or we are telling
kids they are not to watch
00:20:58.63\00:21:00.26
certain stuff on television
00:21:00.29\00:21:01.41
and we are there
watching it ourselves.
00:21:01.44\00:21:03.51
Yes. Or we're looking at
00:21:03.54\00:21:04.51
movies and we know
our kids ought not,
00:21:04.52\00:21:06.39
and we are saying
we're adults we can
00:21:06.42\00:21:07.87
handle those
things. Right, or listening
00:21:07.90\00:21:09.75
to music that's inappropriate.
00:21:09.78\00:21:11.44
Or listening to music.
But rather your children
00:21:11.47\00:21:12.74
not develop for. Well said.
00:21:12.77\00:21:15.43
Then we stand a
chance of becoming
00:21:15.46\00:21:18.67
a stumbling block
for our own children.
00:21:18.70\00:21:20.08
Yes. Because we are unwilling
00:21:20.11\00:21:21.24
to discipline
ourselves. In fact Paul
00:21:21.27\00:21:24.34
would say even if,
even if I don't think
00:21:24.37\00:21:27.46
it's a harm to me as an adult
00:21:27.49\00:21:30.40
maybe it's okay to me,
00:21:30.43\00:21:31.78
I have think even
about my children.
00:21:31.81\00:21:33.10
Right. In the home.
00:21:33.13\00:21:34.17
Right. And, that's true in the
00:21:34.20\00:21:35.59
church family as
well, it's being unselfish
00:21:35.62\00:21:37.98
is to discipline
myself when I really
00:21:38.01\00:21:40.41
don't have to,
because I love somebody.
00:21:40.44\00:21:43.36
And so many times
we hang on to that,
00:21:43.39\00:21:45.41
well if it's, if
it's alright I can
00:21:45.44\00:21:46.92
go ahead and do it. Yeah.
00:21:46.95\00:21:48.35
But we don't really
care about that other person.
00:21:48.38\00:21:52.34
Right. And I suppose
00:21:52.37\00:21:55.01
our selfish nature
plays such a part in that.
00:21:55.04\00:21:57.58
Yes. Because it could
00:21:57.61\00:21:59.16
be acceptable to me. Right.
00:21:59.19\00:22:00.80
Even to Paul. Right.
00:22:00.83\00:22:03.46
I ought to have the
right to go ahead and do it.
00:22:03.49\00:22:06.02
That's right.
And, we, like you said,
00:22:06.05\00:22:08.80
you missed the
point, you are responsible
00:22:08.83\00:22:11.52
to someone else. That's right.
00:22:11.55\00:22:12.80
Well, lets go back
to some practical steps
00:22:12.83\00:22:15.06
now that a church
family should be taking
00:22:15.09\00:22:17.21
in order to
produce a good nursery.
00:22:17.24\00:22:19.61
Okay. To prevent people
00:22:19.64\00:22:21.39
from going astray. Alright.
00:22:21.42\00:22:22.58
So to speak, first of all
00:22:22.61\00:22:24.82
there should be good biblical
00:22:24.85\00:22:26.33
preaching on
Christ, our righteousness,
00:22:26.36\00:22:30.27
on lifestyle and sanctification,
00:22:30.30\00:22:32.22
as well as
justification. You mean
00:22:32.25\00:22:34.15
we should hear this.
We need to be hearing
00:22:34.18\00:22:36.60
that from the
pulpit, in other words.
00:22:36.63\00:22:38.60
By the way there
is a very fascinating
00:22:38.63\00:22:40.28
illustration
that in certain areas,
00:22:40.31\00:22:42.38
in certain inter city areas.
00:22:42.41\00:22:45.57
Yes. Actually drugs
00:22:45.60\00:22:46.68
are going down because Africa
00:22:46.71\00:22:49.48
and American
preachers have taken
00:22:49.51\00:22:51.05
to their pulpits on
a rally against drugs
00:22:51.08\00:22:54.20
and they're
actually having a tremendous,
00:22:54.23\00:22:55.62
young people do
listen to preachers
00:22:55.65\00:22:57.51
and so do adults.
Even though we sometimes
00:22:57.54\00:23:00.14
laugh and smile
where they don't,
00:23:00.17\00:23:01.40
but they do and
actually drug use went down
00:23:01.43\00:23:03.62
when these wonderful ministers
00:23:03.65\00:23:06.06
took their pulpits. Right.
00:23:06.09\00:23:07.40
So, I also
believe that loves needs
00:23:07.43\00:23:09.13
a delivery
truck, which means that
00:23:09.16\00:23:10.64
you can't just believe
this will kind of happen,
00:23:10.67\00:23:13.07
you have to organize
and the spiritual leaders
00:23:13.10\00:23:15.14
of the church
are the elders. Yes.
00:23:15.17\00:23:17.29
And, they must be organized.
00:23:17.32\00:23:18.54
Now, what we would
do is that we would
00:23:18.57\00:23:21.06
give every elder ten families
00:23:21.09\00:23:23.84
in our church and we would say.
00:23:23.87\00:23:25.08
Right. You are, you're their
00:23:25.11\00:23:26.45
spiritual leader, you watch
00:23:26.48\00:23:28.03
over them and. Would you have
00:23:28.06\00:23:30.25
as many elders
then if you did this,
00:23:30.28\00:23:31.90
it might not decline eldership,
00:23:31.93\00:23:34.29
may be if they
don't want ten families
00:23:34.32\00:23:35.91
to take care of?
Well, it says that
00:23:35.94\00:23:38.06
being an elder is much
more being on the platform
00:23:38.09\00:23:40.95
of Sabbath morning. Yes, yes.
00:23:40.98\00:23:42.42
So to speak. We would meet
00:23:42.45\00:23:44.51
in our elders
meeting, our elders meetings
00:23:44.54\00:23:45.96
are not build of
leaky roof and all that,
00:23:45.99\00:23:47.65
are the financial
matters of the church. Yes.
00:23:47.68\00:23:49.14
What our elders
did, was they spent that
00:23:49.17\00:23:51.07
time in prayer and
they spend that time
00:23:51.10\00:23:53.64
going over their church family,
00:23:53.67\00:23:54.89
saying is you know,
how, how members are doing
00:23:54.92\00:23:57.61
spiritually and
we would held each
00:23:57.64\00:23:59.22
other accountable, how are we
00:23:59.25\00:24:00.26
doing
spiritually. And if they saw
00:24:00.29\00:24:02.86
someone begin to
astray they would put together
00:24:02.89\00:24:05.58
a plan of rescue. Yes.
And, I never will forget,
00:24:05.61\00:24:09.97
I had a group of
elders, we had a real
00:24:10.00\00:24:11.57
tragic situation
where a young person
00:24:11.60\00:24:14.20
fell in perversion.
Yes. And, how do you
00:24:14.23\00:24:17.75
respond to that, how do you help
00:24:17.78\00:24:20.35
pull that person
out of that. Right.
00:24:20.38\00:24:22.52
Those elders, they
got down their knees,
00:24:22.55\00:24:24.28
but after they
got off of their knees
00:24:24.31\00:24:25.83
they went to work
and I watched those elder
00:24:25.86\00:24:27.91
raise a sizable
sum of money among
00:24:27.94\00:24:30.17
themselves to
send this individual
00:24:30.20\00:24:32.24
to a place to get
special help. Wow!
00:24:32.27\00:24:34.52
They put him on
probation for a year and worked
00:24:34.55\00:24:37.43
with him etc. and
each one would pray
00:24:37.46\00:24:39.64
with this individual
until this individual
00:24:39.67\00:24:41.26
was restore back
to the church family.
00:24:41.29\00:24:43.44
Right. So, they developed
00:24:43.47\00:24:44.98
plans of rescue. That's the way
00:24:45.01\00:24:47.73
a father should
do it in the home,
00:24:47.76\00:24:49.50
developing,
purposely developing plans
00:24:49.53\00:24:52.95
of rescue for the child.
00:24:52.98\00:24:54.23
That's right. And there is
00:24:54.26\00:24:55.23
family members, thinking it.
00:24:55.24\00:24:56.61
That's right, he's gotta be
00:24:56.64\00:24:58.02
a spiritual
leader in the home. Yes.
00:24:58.05\00:24:59.54
The elders have got
be spiritual leaders.
00:24:59.57\00:25:01.03
Another thing that
elders had to do is we must,
00:25:01.06\00:25:04.28
we must on Sabbath morning,
00:25:04.31\00:25:06.37
let me, let me go back
to that organization there,
00:25:06.40\00:25:08.41
no Pastor can get
around to everybody
00:25:08.44\00:25:10.29
and people need,
people need three things
00:25:10.32\00:25:13.46
in order to feel
loved, people, people don't,
00:25:13.49\00:25:17.54
people sometimes
know they are loved,
00:25:17.57\00:25:19.70
but they need to feel
love and our kids are same way
00:25:19.73\00:25:22.63
by the way. Absolutely.
And, the three things
00:25:22.66\00:25:24.74
they need and no
one minister can give it
00:25:24.77\00:25:27.84
to all the
church members. Right.
00:25:27.87\00:25:29.42
On Sabbath morning.
So, those three things
00:25:29.45\00:25:32.47
are first of all
they need eye contact.
00:25:32.50\00:25:36.89
They do. Oh! Yes, I love that.
00:25:36.92\00:25:39.22
Eye contact tells me
that I'm cared about.
00:25:39.25\00:25:43.17
So you know, on Sabbath morning
00:25:43.20\00:25:45.59
the elders should be right there
00:25:45.62\00:25:46.78
on the foyer greeting
the members of the church
00:25:46.81\00:25:48.73
and he should be
making going around
00:25:48.76\00:25:50.34
to the young
people, to the members
00:25:50.37\00:25:51.67
of his group at
least making sure they get
00:25:51.70\00:25:53.74
some eye contact.
Right. I think they need
00:25:53.77\00:25:55.79
appropriate touch, underline the
00:25:55.82\00:25:57.07
word appropriate.
I understand that.
00:25:57.10\00:25:58.44
And, a good hand
shake, a warm hand shake,
00:25:58.47\00:26:01.54
a pat, in certain
circumstances an arm
00:26:01.57\00:26:04.63
around somebody
perhaps or whatever
00:26:04.66\00:26:06.58
fits the culture of that
particular church family.
00:26:06.61\00:26:09.46
No doubt for too
many warm fuzzies.
00:26:09.49\00:26:11.69
Yeah, it needs to be appropriate
00:26:11.72\00:26:13.14
and I'll say that again. Yes.
00:26:13.17\00:26:14.14
A appropriate,
appropriate contact,
00:26:14.15\00:26:17.67
physical contact.
Right. And, the third one
00:26:17.70\00:26:20.56
is the hardest
one and that's really
00:26:20.59\00:26:22.25
why you need the
elders, because they need
00:26:22.28\00:26:24.57
to be able to
give focused attention
00:26:24.60\00:26:26.80
to each
individual, you cannot do
00:26:26.83\00:26:28.62
that as a Pastor running around,
00:26:28.65\00:26:30.53
focused attention
says to greet you on
00:26:30.56\00:26:32.81
Sabbath morning and
it says to you Kathy,
00:26:32.84\00:26:37.12
it's so good to see
you, I remember last week
00:26:37.15\00:26:39.93
your mother was ill
and I have been praying
00:26:39.96\00:26:42.49
for her this week. Oh! Yes.
00:26:42.52\00:26:44.39
How is she doing?
You see what I am saying.
00:26:44.42\00:26:45.94
Oh! It makes a difference.
00:26:45.97\00:26:46.94
Rather than coming
up to you and say Kathy,
00:26:46.97\00:26:48.80
it's so nice to see today,
00:26:48.83\00:26:49.80
I hope everything is going great
00:26:49.81\00:26:50.91
and then on your
way. That's right.
00:26:50.94\00:26:52.49
Focused attention means
that you got to put time,
00:26:52.52\00:26:54.67
invest time in
that, that individual
00:26:54.70\00:26:56.87
and young people in
particularly need that.
00:26:56.90\00:27:01.06
And, I can see that
there is a, there is a,
00:27:01.09\00:27:04.39
it's really a real
seriousness in the home,
00:27:04.42\00:27:06.68
a real
seriousness in the church,
00:27:06.71\00:27:08.71
a joy of being a
member, either of the house
00:27:08.74\00:27:11.32
of faith or in
the home. A true love
00:27:11.35\00:27:14.46
for the family, as
well as in the church
00:27:14.49\00:27:16.64
and a strong desire
not to shame the family
00:27:16.67\00:27:20.09
or their church
or to disgrace them.
00:27:20.12\00:27:22.72
That's right.
That's nicely said.
00:27:22.75\00:27:25.60
So just to cap off
here to prevent the
00:27:25.63\00:27:30.24
members need to be converted
00:27:30.27\00:27:31.57
and love the Lord
with all their heart
00:27:31.60\00:27:33.25
and to love each
other. They got to be careful
00:27:33.28\00:27:36.06
not to be stumbling blocks,
00:27:36.09\00:27:37.06
to live up to what
they profess to believe
00:27:37.07\00:27:39.03
and then the elders
need to be organized
00:27:39.06\00:27:42.19
to bless them, so that's kind
00:27:42.22\00:27:44.25
of the cap Kathy.
Thank you very much
00:27:44.28\00:27:46.12
and I want to
thank you for joining us
00:27:46.15\00:27:48.53
and I am sure that
you will be blessed
00:27:48.56\00:27:49.84
by what you heard
today, I have been.
00:27:49.87\00:27:52.20
And I appreciate
that you've joined us,
00:27:52.23\00:27:55.61
join us again on
Thinking About Home.
00:27:55.64\00:27:57.77