Participants: James Tucker, Kathy Matthews
Series Code: TAH
Program Code: TAH000101
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00:30 Hello, I'm Kathy Matthews
00:32 and this is Thinking About Home, 00:34 and I'm glad you're joining us again today. 00:36 We've been learning about natural learning 00:39 or that learning is natural and we've been discussing 00:42 all of these issues with Dr. James Tucker 00:45 from Andrews University, 00:47 professor of educational psychology there. 00:49 Welcome back, Jim. 00:50 Yeah, good to be back. 00:52 And I've been learning some things like 00:54 there's a difference between natural learning 00:57 and artificial motivation. 00:59 Can you talk to us about that? 01:02 Well, I'm very excited about the fact that when, 01:06 that our brains are built by God to learn. 01:10 We're born to learn. 01:12 When we're born, we're ready to learn. 01:16 No child is not born ready to learn. 01:20 Most of what we do gets in the way of learning 01:24 and we need to learn to be more supportive 01:27 of natural learning. 01:29 I feel very strongly about that, but let me give you-- 01:31 The parents would need a little more. 01:33 And teachers too. Yes, well, yes. 01:36 But let me give you an example. 01:38 When a baby is born, 01:43 he has certain abilities 01:46 or she does things naturally that nobody even thinks about. 01:50 It's just assumed they will do that. 01:53 And at some point the baby starts cooing 01:56 and saying mamma and dadda, and we wait for those days 02:01 and then when they happen we get all excited about it 02:04 and we hug the baby and we smile, 02:06 we reinforce all those kind of good things 02:08 which are fine, we should do that. 02:10 However, we're not, I don't know of a single parent, 02:15 I've never heard of a parent 02:17 giving a child a grade on talking. Oh, no. 02:21 Or grading him down because 02:23 he's not talking early enough or not talking well enough, 02:27 we don't do that. 02:29 We just welcome it as it comes and as it develops 02:33 and we're so excited about it. 02:35 We don't come, mothers typically do compare well, 02:39 my child started talking 11 months, 02:41 and my child started talking in 13 months or whatever. 02:44 But not as though that one is more intelligent 02:47 than the other, because we know that's not the case. 02:51 When the child gets ready to start to walk, 02:54 it's natural the child wants to move, 02:56 the first thing they do is move their arms. 02:59 We'd be unhappy if they didn't do that. 03:00 Right. We don't give them a grade on hand moving. 03:03 No. And then they start to creep. 03:06 And we don't give them a grade on creeping. 03:08 You got an A in creeping today, 03:10 and yesterday I didn't do so well, 03:13 tomorrow you're gonna only get a C in creeping today. 03:15 Whoever, whatever, imagine a report card 03:18 on naturally developing ideas like that. 03:22 Well, and when the kid finally gets up and walks 03:24 and takes the first step and falls down, 03:27 we don't give them an F because he fell down. 03:30 We just scoop him up and tell him how proud we are. 03:34 That he tried. And he tried that. 03:35 Well, right that he tried and he keeps trying again. 03:37 Yes. Now, imagine what would happen 03:41 if we have the same attitude 03:43 toward kids learning to read. 03:48 To do math, to solve problems, 03:51 to clean up their room, to do the things 03:56 that they naturally should learn, 03:58 to learn a different language, whatever. 04:02 You can use the same principles of learning 04:05 to get kids to do other things 04:08 that are naturally there that cause them 04:11 to learn to walk and talk. 04:13 That's what I mean by natural learning. 04:17 Learning is natural, you just guide it 04:21 rather than whip it into shape. 04:23 We do more damage to learning 04:27 by creating artificial motivations, like marks, 04:32 like red marks on a paper, 04:34 or like grades on a report card, 04:37 or like gold stars on the chart. 04:42 You got more gold stars today than you got yesterday, 04:44 is not quite as bad as you got more gold stars 04:47 than so and so got. 04:48 Oh, yes. Because. 04:50 Because that's against yourself. Right. 04:52 Instead of competing against someone else. 04:53 But you don't even need that, 04:55 because yourself naturally wants to do better. 04:59 Just as you wanted to get up and walk, 05:02 better than you did the day before. 05:04 As you want to run instead of walk, 05:07 as every little kid wants to run 05:09 faster than they've run before. 05:11 There is the natural inclination to do more, 05:14 do better, do, to climb higher. 05:17 We don't need to motivate that, 05:20 we don't need to develop that, it's already there. 05:25 We just need to turn it loose. 05:27 Well, it sounds like we would have to capture it, 05:29 when it's young. 05:30 Very much so, when it's natural, 05:33 when it's young, 05:34 and you capture that by putting a child 05:37 in an environment with all kinds of learning options. 05:40 Not necessarily with all other children. 05:43 You can have some other children 05:44 or not have other children. 05:46 But what is unnatural to have a huge number of kids. Right. 05:52 In fact, I heard a child development specialist 05:54 once give a truth, which I've, 05:59 I don't know if there was any research to back this up 06:02 it just makes sense to me. 06:03 How many kids should you invite 06:05 to your child's birthday party? 06:07 The same number that they're old, their age. Really. 06:11 So a 3-year-old you invite three kids 06:13 to the birthday party. 06:14 A 10-year-old invite 10 kids to the birthday party. 06:17 But what do we typically do these days? 06:19 A 6-year-old may have 15 kids coming 06:23 to their birthday party, they may have it catered, 06:25 they may go to McDonalds 06:26 and have Ronald McDonald come and. 06:29 Calling a little too much attention on. 06:31 That kind of excitement is not ever 06:37 conducive to learning, 06:38 it is actually debilitating to learning. 06:44 To, there's more than one kind of learning, 06:48 they learn something from that environment, 06:51 but not the learning 06:52 that you would prefer them to have. 06:53 Okay, they do learn, 06:55 the brain has an experience which it remembers. 06:59 Yes. Okay. 07:00 And that is technically learning, 07:02 but if we're talking about learning to learning 07:06 the skills and the knowledge 07:08 to perform effectively in the world. 07:11 Yes. As. Self-government. 07:13 Yes, self-motivation, self-government, 07:16 order, accomplishment, 07:20 those kinds of characteristics 07:24 that we want kids to have. 07:26 And achieve, they can achieve, 07:29 but they can achieve them better 07:31 if it's done naturally. 07:34 And that's really hard for us programmed adults 07:38 who've been through, you know, 07:39 it's awful easy for us to say, well, I survived. 07:42 Yes. And therefore my kids will have to do it 07:46 the same as I did because it was good for me, 07:49 but one of the things 07:50 we know is that kids are incredibly different. 07:55 Or is their environment that's incredibly different. 07:58 Well, environment is going to shape part 08:04 of what the student's differences are 08:07 and it can be very negative or very positive. 08:10 And we have such an environment 08:11 that it has so much negative in it today. 08:14 Yeah, but even if you take kids out of that. 08:16 But then we're talking about getting into nature 08:18 for the purpose of learning. 08:20 That's right, you take them out 08:21 of the environment that is incredibly artificial. 08:24 Yes. Let me, let me back up for just a moment. 08:28 The best example that I can think 08:30 of for artificial motivation, 08:34 artificial learning that isn't natural. 08:37 And, okay, you make that clear now, this is. 08:40 This is artificial. 08:42 The best example I know of, 08:45 and this may worry people who hear this. 08:51 It's a typical modern school classroom? 08:57 That is one of the worst possible, 09:01 motivating environments. 09:04 You have to understand now, Dr. Tucker goes around, 09:06 having lectures to the educational system, don't you? 09:10 In various places around the world, giving them-- 09:15 My technical professional field 09:18 is learning and motivation theory. 09:21 Yes. And I know the research 09:24 and the professional literature in these areas. 09:28 Yes. And we have. 09:31 Did their eyes open up when you say that little bit? 09:34 Sometimes they do. 09:35 Are they recognizing it themselves? 09:37 Yeah, you know, there's something inside of us 09:39 that says, you know, I always knew that 09:41 and I always felt that, 09:42 but I didn't understand it, I didn't know, 09:44 I just felt there was something wrong with me. 09:46 Right, right. And but isn't. 09:49 But they're learning, that isn't 09:50 something wrong with them. 09:52 Maybe God is touching their thoughts. 09:53 Yes, I hope so. What is it that, 09:55 what context of learning now that involves the family? 09:59 The family and I love this. 10:04 The family was God's initial learning unit. 10:07 Yes. It was a team. 10:08 Social life learned in the family. Yes. 10:11 We are naturally social. 10:13 We have to have one another. 10:15 In fact, human beings we know, 10:17 that humans will die without social context. 10:20 Yes. We know that, 10:22 and the family was God's method of putting a team 10:25 of people together in the right number, 10:28 or the right amount with the right mixture, 10:31 with a very subjective kind of love 10:34 that overlooked a lot of mistakes. 10:39 And put it together in an environment in the garden 10:43 or in the hills 10:44 or whatever the natural environment should be. 10:46 And for Jesus and His childhood 10:47 in the country setting. Yes. 10:49 And put that team in a setting 10:52 surrounded by naturally motivating elements 10:56 which allow for learning everything we need to know. 11:00 That's not to say that books are bad, 11:02 that curricula is bad, that school is bad, 11:04 or any of those things. 11:05 But the family is the element, 11:08 the team that makes learning work the best, 11:12 if the family is working. Right. 11:14 The family could be dysfunction. 11:16 Certainly the devil has been attacking the family 11:18 more so it seems. 11:20 Probably more than any other single unit of social system. 11:25 And possibly more than any of the time in history. 11:27 And more so as we see the end approaching. 11:30 Yes, I think so. 11:32 And so we talked about context now, 11:33 what about, what kind of challenges 11:36 are there involved in this? 11:38 Well, everybody is different, 11:42 and to meet the needs 11:44 of every different kind of person 11:47 we've to start where they are. 11:53 And, for example, how much information 11:58 are you going to teach, or impart, 12:02 or provide for kids to learn. 12:06 Well, we know, for example, 12:09 since the middle 1950s 12:11 when the research was first recorded, 12:13 that there is a phrase which I'll say this way. 12:17 The magical number seven plus or minus two. 12:20 I don't understand that. 12:21 Well, I don't blame you. 12:22 That was, actually that was the title of a paper 12:24 that was published by the dean 12:26 of the Harvard School of Education, 12:28 but what it means is and what his paper developed 12:32 was that the human mind, or the human brain, 12:35 or the human's learning system is incapable 12:39 of really taking in more than about seven new things 12:44 at a time plus or minus two. 12:47 Well, aren't we being hit 12:48 with so many different things at a time. Yes. 12:50 But are we really learning them? 12:51 No, we're not. Let me give you an example. 12:53 How many digits are in a phone number? 12:56 Seven, that's not an accident. 12:59 They experimented with all kinds of numbers. 13:01 How many digits are in a zip code? 13:04 Five, and then they needed to add some more, 13:07 so they added four more, 13:08 but we're still within the seven plus or minus two. 13:11 And there's been incredible amount of research 13:14 to show that the human brain 13:16 really can't learn to begin with, 13:22 but can't manage, can't use, 13:25 can't apply information when it receives 13:30 too much new information at a time. 13:33 There is a technical term called interference. 13:36 When you provide too much information at a time, 13:39 the information begins to interfere, 13:42 bits of information begin to interfere with each other. 13:45 For example, on Monday morning 13:47 in a typical classroom 13:48 the teacher will give a new spelling words for the, 13:51 the new list of spelling words for the week, 13:53 and it's typically 20. 13:55 Now some of the kids who already know 13:58 13 of them have seven to learn, 14:01 piece of cake, they'll make an A on Friday in the test. 14:05 Some of the kids only know seven, 14:07 have 13 to learn, 14:09 if that isn't broken down into groups of four, 14:12 five or six at a time, they will not make it by the end. 14:17 So the teacher has to know 14:19 about the magical number seven plus or minus two, 14:22 has to break things down in chunks 14:24 and we call it chunking, that's a technical term. 14:27 So that you break down information 14:29 in a manageable chunks and you can't learn 14:33 more than one chunk at a time 14:36 or one bit of knowledge at a time. 14:40 And you then have to build that on 14:42 to what's already known and then you have to practice 14:45 that until it becomes automatic. 14:48 And we also know for about 60 years now 14:51 of research that practice, we even know 14:54 how many time we have to practice. 14:56 Which is? And well, an average person, 14:59 and this is not going to be, 15:01 this is research data so this is average. Yes. 15:04 It doesn't mean that you, 15:05 or I will have this exact number 15:08 but the average person with an average amount 15:12 of mental ability requires about 35 repetitions 15:16 of a new item without a mistake 15:20 before the brain has it ready to use. 15:23 Okay, the new is, that's a little more than I, 15:25 I remember 27 from the past 15:27 and then without a mistake is newer. 15:31 Yeah, and this goes way back. 15:33 Now if you want to, I'm gonna use an example 15:38 of a perfect or let me use a good example 15:43 of using that information in a perfect way, 15:48 but I'm gonna draw the example 15:49 from an artificial learning environment. 15:53 Yes. The video game. 15:55 The video game is one of the most artificial 16:01 learning and most addictive. Yes. 16:04 Learning tools that exist. 16:07 Even if they're a video in nature. 16:09 It doesn't matter. Yes. 16:10 It's an artificial addicting tool. Right. 16:14 Now that, you know, I'll say that devil knows that. 16:17 Yes. So, but even the devil knows 16:21 how the brain learns, and how it learns best. 16:24 So it probably won't surprise you. 16:28 To know that the video game 16:30 is the best example of how things have to be learned. 16:36 When the video game, when you start at a low level, 16:39 where you can be successful. 16:40 Right. And then you add one piece 16:43 of new information at a time, 16:45 and when you make a mistake 16:47 what do you have to do? 16:48 You've to go and start over, 16:50 you're not allowed to practice the mistake. 16:53 So you're not allowed to repeat the mistake, 16:55 the brain remembers everything it repeats. 16:58 And the more it repeats it, the more it remembers. 17:01 So if you're doing something wrong 17:02 and you do it over and over and over. 17:04 You're learning to do it wrong. 17:06 So the best thing you can do when a mistake is made 17:09 is not to even think about, don't try that, 17:11 just dismiss it. 17:12 Go back, go to something else. 17:14 Come back to it with a practiced approach 17:17 till you hit it again the next time. 17:19 That's right, and that's the technology 17:22 the video game is a perfect representation 17:25 of how learning occurs, however it's set in a, 17:29 in a very artificial environment 17:31 that's where the brain gets addicted to it. 17:33 The brain loves it, it's perfect success 17:36 I can be successful again and again. 17:38 And I can keep being challenged 17:39 and I can learn more and more stuff. 17:41 Well, God made that ability in us. 17:44 He didn't make the video game, 17:45 we corrupted the learning experience 17:47 into the artificial environment 17:50 of the video game, 17:51 but the same thing is available naturally. 17:54 You can do the same thing. 17:56 In a classroom teachers do the same thing 18:00 in just as artificial a way, 18:02 but they don't even have the game. 18:03 They just throw the information at the kid 18:05 and say, you've got to write these hundred sentences 18:08 or write this a hundred time, or do ten problems 18:12 without any rhyme or reason 18:13 to how that has to be developed. 18:16 Whereas learning would say, here's a new item. 18:19 We're gonna pluck that into what we already know. 18:21 And now let's see how many ways 18:23 that we can develop that. 18:25 Using what we already know 18:26 and developing this one new item 18:28 and that there is a term that I've developed 18:31 in my research called incremental rehearsal. 18:34 Okay, reviewing what you have learned, 18:37 adding a little at a time. 18:38 Yes. Viewing it, reviewing it, 18:40 adding a little more. 18:41 Absolutely. Reviewing it, adding a little more. 18:42 Yes, and that's the natural way we learn, 18:45 but now that's what individual 18:47 each individual has a different time table. 18:51 It takes different amounts of time for each individual 18:54 to learn the same amount of information. 18:56 And again, this is not attached to intelligence, 18:59 it's attached to individual variation. 19:02 So two children equally intelligent might one 19:05 might take two or three days to learn 19:07 something that another one could learn in half day 19:11 because of prior knowledge 19:12 or because of experiential interest, 19:17 any number of things. 19:18 But the motivation is still the same 19:22 if you allow for the time to develop. 19:26 Now the magical number seven plus or minus two, 19:30 that's a simple thing. 19:31 Parents can remember, 19:34 no more than seven new things and one at a time. 19:39 And integrate the one into what's already there, 19:42 then had another integrate that, 19:44 and another integrate that, 19:45 but don't go above five to nine. 19:48 And then wait a day. 19:50 So this is used for adults as well as children. 19:52 It doesn't matter, doesn't seem to make 19:53 a difference whether a preschool 19:54 or geriatric individuals. 19:58 Right, it seems to be something 19:59 the brain naturally relates to. It's natural. 20:03 See the thing that excites me 20:05 about that is we've been talking about nature. 20:06 Yes. Natural setting, natural learning, 20:08 every thing needs to be natural. 20:11 Well, the brain is natural, the brain is natural, 20:15 God created the brain. 20:16 God created us to operate within the laws of the brain. 20:19 Right. So why not do it? 20:22 Right, I'm convinced. Good. 20:25 The, we've talked about context and challenge, 20:29 our program is gonna run out 20:30 probably before we get all the information 20:32 that we wanted on this program, 20:33 but there is style that we could talk about. 20:36 Yes. And then there is, 20:37 if you want to get into that preference. 20:39 Well, I can do that real quickly. 20:41 Okay, which one? Both of them. 20:42 Okay. We all have different styles of learning 20:45 and we have Dr. Howard Gardner, 20:49 Harvard University has finally opened up the idea 20:53 that the IQ is not the all important 20:56 measure of intelligence. Right. 20:58 In fact it's just an artificial measure 21:01 of mental ability that never really was useful. 21:06 And achievement tests. 21:07 Well, achievement test is another not useful tool. 21:11 Achievement test do not allow, and this is a topic 21:15 for a whole other discussion, 21:16 but achievement test do not measure achievement. 21:19 Right, I was just curious, go ahead, I'm sorry. 21:21 So we're talking about style. 21:23 There are at least 21:24 seven different kinds of intelligence. 21:28 Intelligence usually is thought 21:29 of as being good at school. Right. 21:32 And that's only two of the kinds of intelligence, 21:34 the kind that is good at maths, 21:36 and the kind that is good at language. 21:37 Yes. There is verbal linguistic, 21:39 which is one and logical and mathematical. 21:41 And those are the two kinds of intelligence 21:43 that people who make straight A's are good at. 21:46 There are five other kinds of intelligence 21:49 that are just equally useful to the brain and society. 21:53 One of them is musical. 21:54 Yes, how about leadership? 21:56 Leadership, we really aren't sure, 21:59 in fact Howard Gardner himself has just written 22:01 a book on leadership and we're not sure 22:04 how that fits, but there is a hint that that may in fact 22:07 be yet another kind of intelligence. 22:10 Really? Yeah, but the ones that he knows 22:14 from research exist besides the logical mathematical, 22:16 and verbal linguistic and then the musical. 22:20 Spacial, just the idea of where you're orientation, 22:22 where you are in space. 22:24 You know, how some people can-- 22:25 A sense of your environment 22:27 or a sense of where you are. 22:28 A sense of where you are, orientation 22:30 and being able to get some place 22:31 without you've been using a map some people-- 22:34 Oh, Tom does that very well. 22:36 And it typically is men who do that, 22:38 but it's probably because little boys experience 22:42 kinds of activities that lead them into that activity, 22:46 lead them into that intelligence. 22:47 Like getting lost in the woods. 22:49 When you grew up on the farm. 22:51 These kinds of intelligence by the way are not, 22:56 they we're born with all ability to do all seven. 22:58 It depends on how much we develop 23:00 as to whether which ones we become really good at. 23:03 Then that's four, five is bodily kinesthetic. 23:09 The ability to do things physically. 23:11 Yes. You know, 23:13 probably the greatest basketball player 23:14 that ever lived was who? 23:16 I don't know. Okay. 23:17 I'm sorry, I'm sorry you're asking the wrong person, 23:20 Michael Jordan. That's it. 23:22 That's the one, probably so 23:23 and people nowadays would say that, 23:25 but if you've ever seen 23:26 Michael Jordan go down the court. 23:29 Which I never have, but anyway. 23:32 He is going through a set of physical activities 23:35 which are all controlled in the brain. 23:38 And that is a kind of intelligence 23:41 which can be developed in any kind of way. 23:44 It can be developed by a person riding a horse 23:49 or a person playing the piano. Oh, really. 23:51 Person playing the piano has both musical intelligence 23:54 and bodily kinesthetic intelligence, 23:56 and may or may not have other kinds, 23:58 although there is a connection apparently 24:00 between piano playing and logical mathematical also. 24:03 Then there is interpersonal intelligence, 24:08 now that's probably where leadership is involved, 24:11 but we're not sure. 24:12 Interpersonal intelligence is the ability of a person 24:16 to actually have expertise in how 24:18 they get along with other people 24:20 and that's controlled in the brain. 24:22 And then the last one the seventh one is intrapersonal, 24:25 knowing yourself, to thine own self be true. 24:29 Order in your private world. 24:31 Yes, and meditation, and you know, 24:34 Jesus loves a great while before day went out 24:37 into the desert to be alone and to pray. 24:39 This is an intelligence? 24:40 Yes, that's an intelligence. 24:42 Poets are really good at that kind of intelligence, yeah. 24:47 And so there are seven different 24:49 and then Howard Gardener says, 24:51 please don't assume that seven 24:52 that we've kind of isolated are all there is. 24:56 There may be many more, 24:57 there may be a gustatory intelligence, 25:00 you know one that we use in taste 25:02 and savoring food and so on. 25:05 And yet when you put all that together, 25:07 it's all the brain and it's all this brain 25:09 that God made that gives us so much, 25:12 so many options. 25:13 Now that's style. 25:14 Yes. Everybody has different style. 25:16 Can you talk preference here before we quit? 25:19 Yes, I can. Well all I say is we shouldn't value 25:21 just two of the styles. 25:23 We should value all of the seven. 25:25 Preference has to do 25:26 with whether we're auditory or visual or tactile. 25:31 I'm an auditory person. 25:33 I'll talk, and talk and talk, and talk, 25:35 I don't see pictures in my brain. 25:37 Most people about 75% of the people see pictures. 25:41 When I say the word cow, 25:42 I don't see the picture of a cow, 25:44 I don't see the word cow, I can hear it moo, 25:47 I can hear a whole barn full of cows moo, 25:50 but I don't see anything called a cow. 25:52 I often ask my graduate students in the classes, 25:55 when I say cow what do you see? 25:56 And typically it's a black and white cow 25:58 and for reason it's usually facing left. 26:00 I don't know why that is, but nevertheless 26:04 I'm not a visual person, 26:05 auditory people are about 25% of the population. 26:09 We learn auditorily, visual people need pictures, 26:12 auditory people need auditory, 26:14 tactile people need to feel, to touch. Yes. 26:16 And all three of those are incredibly important. 26:19 Supposing you're a visual teacher 26:21 and you have auditory and tactile students. 26:23 Supposing you're a parent, 26:25 father is auditory as in our case, and my wife is visual. 26:29 Yes. It's very important 26:31 that we know how to communicate, 26:32 because we're gonna be communicating 26:33 right past each other and having arguments 26:35 that don't need to exist. 26:37 Unless we understand that, 26:38 and what if our kids happen to be tactile? 26:41 Then we're going to say, 26:42 don't you understand what I'm saying? 26:44 And they're gonna say No, I can't feel it. 26:46 All right. And my wife said, don't see what I mean. 26:50 Yes. And Michael might say, no, I don't feel it at all. 26:53 Right. So we have our natural tendencies to learn 26:57 and we have the natural ways that we learn, 27:00 and we have the natural style that we learn. 27:03 And when all of those are accounted for 27:06 and it's easier to do that in a natural setting. 27:10 When that's all taken care of, 27:12 then wonder of wonders. 27:15 The learning just kind of blossoms, 27:17 it just kind of grows and develops. 27:20 And we call that natural learning, why not? 27:24 Dr. Tucker, you have to come back, 27:26 'cause we didn't get to finish. 27:27 Okay. I think I want to read this statement again. 27:32 And it has to do with natural setting, 27:35 teach the children to see Christ in nature, 27:37 take them out into the open air, 27:39 under the noble trees into the garden 27:42 and into all the wonderful works of creation. 27:45 Teach them to see an expression of God's love 27:48 and that's found in child guidance, 27:50 which is a wonderful book for teaching natural things, 27:54 and for teaching the family 27:55 how to take care of their home. 27:57 Join us again here, on Thinking About Home. |
Revised 2014-12-17