Hello, I'm Kathy Matthews
00:00:30.74\00:00:32.54
and this is Thinking About Home,
00:00:32.55\00:00:33.98
and I'm glad you're
joining us again today.
00:00:33.99\00:00:36.36
We've been learning
about natural learning
00:00:36.37\00:00:39.42
or that learning is natural
and we've been discussing
00:00:39.43\00:00:42.74
all of these issues
with Dr. James Tucker
00:00:42.75\00:00:45.53
from Andrews University,
00:00:45.54\00:00:47.22
professor of
educational psychology there.
00:00:47.23\00:00:49.51
Welcome back, Jim.
00:00:49.52\00:00:50.49
Yeah, good to be back.
00:00:50.50\00:00:52.10
And I've been
learning some things like
00:00:52.11\00:00:54.55
there's a difference
between natural learning
00:00:54.56\00:00:57.44
and artificial motivation.
00:00:57.45\00:00:59.90
Can you talk to us about that?
00:00:59.91\00:01:02.41
Well, I'm very excited
about the fact that when,
00:01:02.42\00:01:06.12
that our brains are
built by God to learn.
00:01:06.13\00:01:10.54
We're born to learn.
00:01:10.55\00:01:12.95
When we're born,
we're ready to learn.
00:01:12.96\00:01:16.40
No child is not
born ready to learn.
00:01:16.41\00:01:19.98
Most of what we do
gets in the way of learning
00:01:19.99\00:01:24.65
and we need to learn
to be more supportive
00:01:24.66\00:01:27.77
of natural learning.
00:01:27.78\00:01:29.40
I feel very strongly about
that, but let me give you--
00:01:29.41\00:01:31.64
The parents would
need a little more.
00:01:31.65\00:01:33.78
And teachers
too. Yes, well, yes.
00:01:33.79\00:01:36.84
But let me give you an example.
00:01:36.85\00:01:38.94
When a baby is born,
00:01:38.95\00:01:40.24
he has certain abilities
00:01:43.43\00:01:45.70
or she does things naturally
that nobody even thinks about.
00:01:46.14\00:01:50.83
It's just assumed
they will do that.
00:01:50.84\00:01:53.50
And at some point
the baby starts cooing
00:01:53.51\00:01:56.81
and saying mamma and dadda,
and we wait for those days
00:01:56.82\00:02:00.99
and then when they happen
we get all excited about it
00:02:01.00\00:02:04.16
and we hug the
baby and we smile,
00:02:04.17\00:02:06.61
we reinforce all
those kind of good things
00:02:06.62\00:02:08.71
which are fine,
we should do that.
00:02:08.72\00:02:10.80
However, we're not, I
don't know of a single parent,
00:02:10.81\00:02:15.09
I've never heard of a parent
00:02:15.10\00:02:17.22
giving a child a
grade on talking. Oh, no.
00:02:17.23\00:02:21.28
Or grading him down because
00:02:21.29\00:02:23.77
he's not talking early enough
or not talking well enough,
00:02:23.78\00:02:27.84
we don't do that.
00:02:27.85\00:02:29.28
We just welcome it as
it comes and as it develops
00:02:29.29\00:02:33.22
and we're so excited about it.
00:02:33.23\00:02:35.60
We don't come, mothers
typically do compare well,
00:02:35.61\00:02:39.54
my child started
talking 11 months,
00:02:39.55\00:02:41.11
and my child started talking
in 13 months or whatever.
00:02:41.12\00:02:44.01
But not as though that
one is more intelligent
00:02:44.02\00:02:47.52
than the other, because
we know that's not the case.
00:02:47.53\00:02:50.34
When the child gets
ready to start to walk,
00:02:51.46\00:02:54.07
it's natural the
child wants to move,
00:02:54.08\00:02:56.40
the first thing they
do is move their arms.
00:02:56.41\00:02:58.97
We'd be unhappy if
they didn't do that.
00:02:58.98\00:03:00.70
Right. We don't give
them a grade on hand moving.
00:03:00.71\00:03:03.16
No. And then
they start to creep.
00:03:03.17\00:03:06.01
And we don't give
them a grade on creeping.
00:03:06.02\00:03:08.06
You got an A in creeping today,
00:03:08.07\00:03:10.17
and yesterday I
didn't do so well,
00:03:10.18\00:03:13.04
tomorrow you're gonna
only get a C in creeping today.
00:03:13.05\00:03:15.49
Whoever, whatever,
imagine a report card
00:03:15.50\00:03:18.48
on naturally
developing ideas like that.
00:03:18.49\00:03:22.50
Well, and when the kid
finally gets up and walks
00:03:22.51\00:03:24.56
and takes the first
step and falls down,
00:03:24.57\00:03:27.36
we don't give them an
F because he fell down.
00:03:27.37\00:03:30.45
We just scoop him up and
tell him how proud we are.
00:03:30.46\00:03:34.28
That he tried.
And he tried that.
00:03:34.29\00:03:35.78
Well, right that he tried
and he keeps trying again.
00:03:35.79\00:03:37.93
Yes. Now,
imagine what would happen
00:03:37.94\00:03:41.01
if we have the same attitude
00:03:41.02\00:03:43.27
toward kids learning to read.
00:03:43.56\00:03:47.69
To do math, to solve problems,
00:03:48.32\00:03:51.79
to clean up their
room, to do the things
00:03:51.80\00:03:56.04
that they
naturally should learn,
00:03:56.05\00:03:58.51
to learn a
different language, whatever.
00:03:58.52\00:04:02.01
You can use the same
principles of learning
00:04:02.02\00:04:05.73
to get kids to do other things
00:04:05.74\00:04:08.73
that are naturally
there that cause them
00:04:08.74\00:04:11.14
to learn to walk and talk.
00:04:11.15\00:04:13.74
That's what I mean
by natural learning.
00:04:13.75\00:04:17.61
Learning is
natural, you just guide it
00:04:17.62\00:04:20.99
rather than whip it into shape.
00:04:21.00\00:04:23.67
We do more damage to learning
00:04:23.68\00:04:27.95
by creating artificial
motivations, like marks,
00:04:27.96\00:04:32.29
like red marks on a paper,
00:04:32.30\00:04:34.29
or like grades on a report card,
00:04:34.30\00:04:37.79
or like gold stars on the chart.
00:04:37.80\00:04:42.31
You got more gold stars
today than you got yesterday,
00:04:42.32\00:04:44.86
is not quite as bad as
you got more gold stars
00:04:44.87\00:04:47.59
than so and so got.
00:04:47.60\00:04:48.67
Oh, yes. Because.
00:04:48.68\00:04:50.28
Because that's
against yourself. Right.
00:04:50.29\00:04:52.17
Instead of competing
against someone else.
00:04:52.18\00:04:53.83
But you don't even need that,
00:04:53.84\00:04:55.41
because yourself
naturally wants to do better.
00:04:55.42\00:04:59.73
Just as you wanted
to get up and walk,
00:04:59.74\00:05:02.94
better than you
did the day before.
00:05:02.95\00:05:04.74
As you want to
run instead of walk,
00:05:04.75\00:05:07.21
as every little kid wants to run
00:05:07.22\00:05:09.41
faster than they've run before.
00:05:09.42\00:05:11.62
There is the natural
inclination to do more,
00:05:11.63\00:05:14.73
do better, do, to climb higher.
00:05:14.74\00:05:17.55
We don't need to motivate that,
00:05:17.56\00:05:20.72
we don't need to develop
that, it's already there.
00:05:20.73\00:05:25.20
We just need to turn it loose.
00:05:25.21\00:05:27.22
Well, it sounds like we
would have to capture it,
00:05:27.23\00:05:29.60
when it's young.
00:05:29.61\00:05:30.89
Very much so, when it's natural,
00:05:30.90\00:05:33.03
when it's young,
00:05:33.04\00:05:34.01
and you capture
that by putting a child
00:05:34.02\00:05:37.10
in an environment with
all kinds of learning options.
00:05:37.11\00:05:40.37
Not necessarily
with all other children.
00:05:40.38\00:05:43.47
You can have some other children
00:05:43.48\00:05:44.93
or not have other children.
00:05:44.94\00:05:46.40
But what is unnatural to have
a huge number of kids. Right.
00:05:46.41\00:05:52.13
In fact, I heard a
child development specialist
00:05:52.14\00:05:54.62
once give a truth, which I've,
00:05:54.63\00:05:59.89
I don't know if there was
any research to back this up
00:05:59.90\00:06:02.05
it just makes sense to me.
00:06:02.06\00:06:03.87
How many kids should you invite
00:06:03.88\00:06:05.41
to your child's birthday party?
00:06:05.42\00:06:07.51
The same number that
they're old, their age. Really.
00:06:07.52\00:06:11.35
So a 3-year-old
you invite three kids
00:06:11.36\00:06:13.21
to the birthday party.
00:06:13.22\00:06:14.42
A 10-year-old invite 10
kids to the birthday party.
00:06:14.43\00:06:17.13
But what do we
typically do these days?
00:06:17.14\00:06:19.92
A 6-year-old may
have 15 kids coming
00:06:19.93\00:06:23.03
to their birthday party,
they may have it catered,
00:06:23.04\00:06:25.36
they may go to McDonalds
00:06:25.37\00:06:26.84
and have Ronald
McDonald come and.
00:06:26.85\00:06:29.43
Calling a little
too much attention on.
00:06:29.44\00:06:31.67
That kind of
excitement is not ever
00:06:31.68\00:06:37.18
conducive to learning,
00:06:37.19\00:06:38.90
it is actually
debilitating to learning.
00:06:38.91\00:06:44.20
To, there's more
than one kind of learning,
00:06:44.21\00:06:48.76
they learn something
from that environment,
00:06:48.77\00:06:50.99
but not the learning
00:06:51.00\00:06:51.97
that you would
prefer them to have.
00:06:51.98\00:06:53.41
Okay, they do learn,
00:06:53.42\00:06:55.55
the brain has an
experience which it remembers.
00:06:55.56\00:06:59.06
Yes. Okay.
00:06:59.07\00:07:00.18
And that is
technically learning,
00:07:00.19\00:07:02.67
but if we're talking
about learning to learning
00:07:02.68\00:07:06.39
the skills and the knowledge
00:07:06.40\00:07:08.49
to perform
effectively in the world.
00:07:08.50\00:07:11.16
Yes. As. Self-government.
00:07:11.17\00:07:13.35
Yes, self-motivation,
self-government,
00:07:13.36\00:07:16.53
order, accomplishment,
00:07:16.54\00:07:20.67
those kinds of characteristics
00:07:20.68\00:07:24.23
that we want kids to have.
00:07:24.24\00:07:26.55
And achieve, they can achieve,
00:07:26.56\00:07:29.72
but they can achieve them better
00:07:29.73\00:07:31.75
if it's done naturally.
00:07:31.76\00:07:34.21
And that's really hard
for us programmed adults
00:07:34.22\00:07:38.38
who've been through, you know,
00:07:38.39\00:07:39.72
it's awful easy for us
to say, well, I survived.
00:07:39.73\00:07:42.76
Yes. And therefore my
kids will have to do it
00:07:42.77\00:07:45.97
the same as I did
because it was good for me,
00:07:45.98\00:07:48.12
but one of the things
00:07:49.28\00:07:50.93
we know is that kids
are incredibly different.
00:07:50.94\00:07:55.41
Or is their environment
that's incredibly different.
00:07:55.42\00:07:58.77
Well, environment
is going to shape part
00:07:58.78\00:08:04.43
of what the
student's differences are
00:08:04.44\00:08:07.52
and it can be very
negative or very positive.
00:08:07.53\00:08:10.05
And we have such an environment
00:08:10.06\00:08:11.71
that it has so much
negative in it today.
00:08:11.72\00:08:14.28
Yeah, but even if you
take kids out of that.
00:08:14.29\00:08:16.21
But then we're talking
about getting into nature
00:08:16.22\00:08:18.59
for the purpose of learning.
00:08:18.60\00:08:20.35
That's right, you take them out
00:08:20.36\00:08:21.85
of the environment that
is incredibly artificial.
00:08:21.86\00:08:24.53
Yes. Let me, let me
back up for just a moment.
00:08:24.54\00:08:28.07
The best
example that I can think
00:08:28.08\00:08:30.62
of for artificial motivation,
00:08:30.63\00:08:34.75
artificial
learning that isn't natural.
00:08:34.76\00:08:37.93
And, okay, you make
that clear now, this is.
00:08:37.94\00:08:40.30
This is artificial.
00:08:40.31\00:08:42.11
The best example I know of,
00:08:42.12\00:08:45.07
and this may worry
people who hear this.
00:08:45.08\00:08:50.32
It's a typical
modern school classroom?
00:08:51.11\00:08:55.40
That is one of
the worst possible,
00:08:57.52\00:09:01.88
motivating environments.
00:09:01.89\00:09:04.50
You have to understand
now, Dr. Tucker goes around,
00:09:04.51\00:09:06.78
having lectures to the
educational system, don't you?
00:09:06.79\00:09:10.77
In various places
around the world, giving them--
00:09:10.78\00:09:15.96
My technical professional field
00:09:15.97\00:09:18.81
is learning and
motivation theory.
00:09:18.82\00:09:21.45
Yes. And I know the research
00:09:21.46\00:09:24.27
and the professional
literature in these areas.
00:09:24.28\00:09:28.44
Yes. And we have.
00:09:28.45\00:09:31.54
Did their eyes open up
when you say that little bit?
00:09:31.55\00:09:34.64
Sometimes they do.
00:09:34.65\00:09:35.68
Are they
recognizing it themselves?
00:09:35.69\00:09:37.24
Yeah, you know,
there's something inside of us
00:09:37.25\00:09:39.85
that says, you
know, I always knew that
00:09:39.86\00:09:41.30
and I always felt that,
00:09:41.31\00:09:42.84
but I didn't
understand it, I didn't know,
00:09:42.85\00:09:44.61
I just felt there was
something wrong with me.
00:09:44.62\00:09:46.45
Right, right. And but isn't.
00:09:46.46\00:09:49.77
But they're learning, that isn't
00:09:49.78\00:09:50.96
something wrong with them.
00:09:50.97\00:09:51.94
Maybe God is
touching their thoughts.
00:09:51.95\00:09:53.28
Yes, I hope so. What is it that,
00:09:53.29\00:09:55.74
what context of learning
now that involves the family?
00:09:55.75\00:09:59.96
The family and I love this.
00:09:59.97\00:10:04.00
The family was God's
initial learning unit.
00:10:04.01\00:10:07.58
Yes. It was a team.
00:10:07.59\00:10:08.78
Social life
learned in the family. Yes.
00:10:08.79\00:10:11.60
We are naturally social.
00:10:11.61\00:10:13.96
We have to have one another.
00:10:13.97\00:10:15.88
In fact, human beings we know,
00:10:15.89\00:10:17.80
that humans will die
without social context.
00:10:17.81\00:10:20.61
Yes. We know that,
00:10:20.62\00:10:22.31
and the family was
God's method of putting a team
00:10:22.32\00:10:25.73
of people together
in the right number,
00:10:25.74\00:10:28.65
or the right amount
with the right mixture,
00:10:28.66\00:10:31.29
with a very
subjective kind of love
00:10:31.30\00:10:34.43
that overlooked
a lot of mistakes.
00:10:34.44\00:10:39.00
And put it together in
an environment in the garden
00:10:39.01\00:10:43.20
or in the hills
00:10:43.21\00:10:44.18
or whatever the
natural environment should be.
00:10:44.19\00:10:46.54
And for Jesus and His childhood
00:10:46.55\00:10:47.93
in the country setting. Yes.
00:10:47.94\00:10:49.85
And put that team in a setting
00:10:49.86\00:10:52.71
surrounded by
naturally motivating elements
00:10:52.72\00:10:56.11
which allow for learning
everything we need to know.
00:10:56.12\00:11:00.30
That's not to say
that books are bad,
00:11:00.31\00:11:02.35
that curricula is
bad, that school is bad,
00:11:02.36\00:11:04.46
or any of those things.
00:11:04.47\00:11:05.44
But the family is the element,
00:11:05.45\00:11:08.36
the team that makes
learning work the best,
00:11:08.37\00:11:12.04
if the family is working. Right.
00:11:12.05\00:11:14.24
The family could be dysfunction.
00:11:14.25\00:11:16.79
Certainly the devil has
been attacking the family
00:11:16.80\00:11:18.71
more so it seems.
00:11:18.72\00:11:20.10
Probably more than any other
single unit of social system.
00:11:20.11\00:11:25.03
And possibly more than
any of the time in history.
00:11:25.04\00:11:27.90
And more so as we
see the end approaching.
00:11:27.91\00:11:30.38
Yes, I think so.
00:11:30.39\00:11:32.10
And so we talked
about context now,
00:11:32.11\00:11:33.87
what about, what
kind of challenges
00:11:33.88\00:11:36.02
are there involved in this?
00:11:36.03\00:11:38.53
Well, everybody is different,
00:11:38.54\00:11:40.69
and to meet the needs
00:11:42.89\00:11:44.33
of every
different kind of person
00:11:44.34\00:11:47.82
we've to start where they are.
00:11:47.83\00:11:50.58
And, for example,
how much information
00:11:53.47\00:11:58.84
are you going to
teach, or impart,
00:11:58.85\00:12:02.95
or provide for kids to learn.
00:12:02.96\00:12:06.05
Well, we know, for example,
00:12:06.06\00:12:09.13
since the middle 1950s
00:12:09.14\00:12:11.14
when the research
was first recorded,
00:12:11.15\00:12:13.95
that there is a phrase
which I'll say this way.
00:12:13.96\00:12:17.71
The magical number
seven plus or minus two.
00:12:17.72\00:12:20.00
I don't understand that.
00:12:20.01\00:12:21.21
Well, I don't blame you.
00:12:21.22\00:12:22.44
That was, actually that
was the title of a paper
00:12:22.45\00:12:24.64
that was published by the dean
00:12:24.65\00:12:26.73
of the Harvard
School of Education,
00:12:26.74\00:12:28.83
but what it means is
and what his paper developed
00:12:28.84\00:12:32.58
was that the human
mind, or the human brain,
00:12:32.59\00:12:35.75
or the human's
learning system is incapable
00:12:35.76\00:12:39.27
of really taking in more
than about seven new things
00:12:39.28\00:12:44.38
at a time plus or minus two.
00:12:44.39\00:12:46.98
Well, aren't we being hit
00:12:46.99\00:12:48.05
with so many
different things at a time. Yes.
00:12:48.06\00:12:50.46
But are we really learning them?
00:12:50.47\00:12:51.47
No, we're not. Let
me give you an example.
00:12:51.48\00:12:53.90
How many digits
are in a phone number?
00:12:53.91\00:12:56.66
Seven, that's not an accident.
00:12:56.67\00:12:59.21
They experimented
with all kinds of numbers.
00:12:59.22\00:13:01.94
How many digits
are in a zip code?
00:13:01.95\00:13:04.24
Five, and then they
needed to add some more,
00:13:04.25\00:13:07.28
so they added four more,
00:13:07.29\00:13:08.59
but we're still within
the seven plus or minus two.
00:13:08.60\00:13:11.83
And there's been
incredible amount of research
00:13:11.84\00:13:14.32
to show that the human brain
00:13:14.33\00:13:16.60
really can't
learn to begin with,
00:13:16.61\00:13:21.97
but can't manage, can't use,
00:13:21.98\00:13:25.62
can't apply
information when it receives
00:13:25.63\00:13:30.53
too much new
information at a time.
00:13:30.54\00:13:33.50
There is a technical
term called interference.
00:13:33.51\00:13:36.23
When you provide too
much information at a time,
00:13:36.24\00:13:39.85
the information
begins to interfere,
00:13:39.86\00:13:42.49
bits of information begin
to interfere with each other.
00:13:42.50\00:13:45.42
For example, on Monday morning
00:13:45.43\00:13:47.30
in a typical classroom
00:13:47.31\00:13:48.75
the teacher will give a
new spelling words for the,
00:13:48.76\00:13:51.03
the new list of
spelling words for the week,
00:13:51.04\00:13:53.22
and it's typically 20.
00:13:53.23\00:13:55.67
Now some of the
kids who already know
00:13:55.68\00:13:58.37
13 of them have seven to learn,
00:13:58.38\00:14:01.42
piece of cake, they'll
make an A on Friday in the test.
00:14:01.43\00:14:05.06
Some of the
kids only know seven,
00:14:05.07\00:14:07.36
have 13 to learn,
00:14:07.37\00:14:09.13
if that isn't broken
down into groups of four,
00:14:09.14\00:14:12.88
five or six at a time, they
will not make it by the end.
00:14:12.89\00:14:17.55
So the teacher has to know
00:14:17.56\00:14:19.69
about the magical
number seven plus or minus two,
00:14:19.70\00:14:22.41
has to break
things down in chunks
00:14:22.42\00:14:24.44
and we call it chunking,
that's a technical term.
00:14:24.45\00:14:27.68
So that you
break down information
00:14:27.69\00:14:29.75
in a manageable
chunks and you can't learn
00:14:29.76\00:14:33.30
more than one chunk at a time
00:14:33.31\00:14:36.30
or one bit of
knowledge at a time.
00:14:36.31\00:14:40.78
And you then
have to build that on
00:14:40.79\00:14:42.68
to what's already known
and then you have to practice
00:14:42.69\00:14:45.75
that until it becomes automatic.
00:14:45.76\00:14:48.41
And we also know
for about 60 years now
00:14:48.42\00:14:51.08
of research that
practice, we even know
00:14:51.09\00:14:54.30
how many time we
have to practice.
00:14:54.31\00:14:56.29
Which is? And
well, an average person,
00:14:56.30\00:14:59.25
and this is not going to be,
00:14:59.26\00:15:01.52
this is research data
so this is average. Yes.
00:15:01.53\00:15:04.64
It doesn't mean that you,
00:15:04.65\00:15:05.67
or I will have this exact number
00:15:05.68\00:15:08.86
but the average
person with an average amount
00:15:08.87\00:15:12.06
of mental ability
requires about 35 repetitions
00:15:12.07\00:15:16.71
of a new item without a mistake
00:15:16.72\00:15:20.39
before the brain
has it ready to use.
00:15:20.40\00:15:23.21
Okay, the new is,
that's a little more than I,
00:15:23.22\00:15:25.74
I remember 27 from the past
00:15:25.75\00:15:27.76
and then without
a mistake is newer.
00:15:27.77\00:15:31.21
Yeah, and this goes way back.
00:15:31.22\00:15:33.93
Now if you want to,
I'm gonna use an example
00:15:33.94\00:15:38.61
of a perfect or let
me use a good example
00:15:38.62\00:15:43.84
of using that
information in a perfect way,
00:15:43.85\00:15:48.05
but I'm gonna draw the example
00:15:48.06\00:15:49.84
from an artificial
learning environment.
00:15:49.85\00:15:53.83
Yes. The video game.
00:15:53.84\00:15:55.64
The video game is one
of the most artificial
00:15:55.65\00:16:01.19
learning and
most addictive. Yes.
00:16:01.20\00:16:04.27
Learning tools that exist.
00:16:04.31\00:16:07.56
Even if they're
a video in nature.
00:16:07.57\00:16:09.66
It doesn't matter. Yes.
00:16:09.67\00:16:10.88
It's an artificial
addicting tool. Right.
00:16:10.89\00:16:14.10
Now that, you know, I'll
say that devil knows that.
00:16:14.11\00:16:17.31
Yes. So, but
even the devil knows
00:16:17.32\00:16:20.99
how the brain learns,
and how it learns best.
00:16:21.00\00:16:24.32
So it probably
won't surprise you.
00:16:24.33\00:16:28.92
To know that the video game
00:16:28.93\00:16:30.62
is the best example of
how things have to be learned.
00:16:30.63\00:16:35.99
When the video game,
when you start at a low level,
00:16:36.71\00:16:39.38
where you can be successful.
00:16:39.39\00:16:40.70
Right. And then
you add one piece
00:16:40.71\00:16:43.52
of new information at a time,
00:16:43.53\00:16:45.74
and when you make a mistake
00:16:45.75\00:16:47.09
what do you have to do?
00:16:47.10\00:16:48.82
You've to go and start over,
00:16:48.83\00:16:50.23
you're not allowed
to practice the mistake.
00:16:50.24\00:16:53.13
So you're not allowed
to repeat the mistake,
00:16:53.14\00:16:55.69
the brain remembers
everything it repeats.
00:16:55.70\00:16:58.71
And the more it repeats
it, the more it remembers.
00:16:58.72\00:17:01.02
So if you're
doing something wrong
00:17:01.03\00:17:02.50
and you do it
over and over and over.
00:17:02.51\00:17:04.28
You're learning to do it wrong.
00:17:04.29\00:17:06.44
So the best thing you
can do when a mistake is made
00:17:06.45\00:17:09.13
is not to even think
about, don't try that,
00:17:09.14\00:17:11.32
just dismiss it.
00:17:11.33\00:17:12.42
Go back, go to something else.
00:17:12.43\00:17:14.38
Come back to it
with a practiced approach
00:17:14.39\00:17:17.92
till you hit it
again the next time.
00:17:17.93\00:17:19.87
That's right, and
that's the technology
00:17:19.88\00:17:22.54
the video game is a
perfect representation
00:17:22.55\00:17:25.38
of how learning
occurs, however it's set in a,
00:17:25.39\00:17:29.10
in a very artificial environment
00:17:29.11\00:17:31.57
that's where the
brain gets addicted to it.
00:17:31.58\00:17:33.33
The brain loves it,
it's perfect success
00:17:33.34\00:17:36.11
I can be
successful again and again.
00:17:36.12\00:17:38.44
And I can keep being challenged
00:17:38.45\00:17:39.80
and I can learn
more and more stuff.
00:17:39.81\00:17:41.90
Well, God made
that ability in us.
00:17:41.91\00:17:44.01
He didn't make the video game,
00:17:44.02\00:17:45.48
we corrupted the
learning experience
00:17:45.49\00:17:47.89
into the artificial environment
00:17:47.90\00:17:50.38
of the video game,
00:17:50.39\00:17:51.64
but the same thing
is available naturally.
00:17:51.65\00:17:54.77
You can do the same thing.
00:17:54.78\00:17:56.85
In a classroom
teachers do the same thing
00:17:56.86\00:18:00.46
in just as artificial a way,
00:18:00.47\00:18:02.23
but they don't
even have the game.
00:18:02.24\00:18:03.74
They just throw the
information at the kid
00:18:03.75\00:18:05.90
and say, you've got to
write these hundred sentences
00:18:05.91\00:18:08.65
or write this a hundred
time, or do ten problems
00:18:08.66\00:18:12.33
without any rhyme or reason
00:18:12.34\00:18:13.95
to how that has to be developed.
00:18:13.96\00:18:16.14
Whereas learning would
say, here's a new item.
00:18:16.15\00:18:19.05
We're gonna pluck that
into what we already know.
00:18:19.06\00:18:21.68
And now let's see how many ways
00:18:21.69\00:18:23.26
that we can develop that.
00:18:23.27\00:18:25.12
Using what we already know
00:18:25.13\00:18:26.67
and developing this one new item
00:18:26.68\00:18:28.80
and that there is a
term that I've developed
00:18:28.81\00:18:31.46
in my research called
incremental rehearsal.
00:18:31.47\00:18:34.57
Okay, reviewing
what you have learned,
00:18:34.58\00:18:36.98
adding a little at a time.
00:18:36.99\00:18:38.26
Yes. Viewing it, reviewing it,
00:18:38.27\00:18:40.10
adding a little more.
00:18:40.11\00:18:41.08
Absolutely. Reviewing
it, adding a little more.
00:18:41.09\00:18:42.73
Yes, and that's the
natural way we learn,
00:18:42.74\00:18:45.51
but now that's what individual
00:18:45.52\00:18:47.85
each individual has
a different time table.
00:18:47.86\00:18:51.15
It takes different amounts
of time for each individual
00:18:51.16\00:18:54.48
to learn the same
amount of information.
00:18:54.49\00:18:56.66
And again, this is not
attached to intelligence,
00:18:56.67\00:18:59.71
it's attached to
individual variation.
00:18:59.72\00:19:02.36
So two children
equally intelligent might one
00:19:02.37\00:19:05.70
might take two or
three days to learn
00:19:05.71\00:19:07.47
something that another
one could learn in half day
00:19:07.48\00:19:11.00
because of prior knowledge
00:19:11.01\00:19:12.59
or because of
experiential interest,
00:19:12.60\00:19:17.42
any number of things.
00:19:17.43\00:19:18.84
But the
motivation is still the same
00:19:18.85\00:19:22.35
if you allow for
the time to develop.
00:19:22.36\00:19:26.39
Now the magical number
seven plus or minus two,
00:19:26.40\00:19:29.99
that's a simple thing.
00:19:30.00\00:19:31.65
Parents can remember,
00:19:31.66\00:19:33.30
no more than seven new
things and one at a time.
00:19:34.57\00:19:39.22
And integrate the one
into what's already there,
00:19:39.23\00:19:42.53
then had another integrate that,
00:19:42.54\00:19:44.15
and another integrate that,
00:19:44.16\00:19:45.55
but don't go above five to nine.
00:19:45.56\00:19:48.38
And then wait a day.
00:19:48.39\00:19:50.22
So this is used for
adults as well as children.
00:19:50.23\00:19:52.08
It doesn't matter,
doesn't seem to make
00:19:52.09\00:19:53.36
a difference whether a preschool
00:19:53.37\00:19:54.64
or geriatric individuals.
00:19:54.65\00:19:58.13
Right, it seems to be something
00:19:58.14\00:19:59.47
the brain naturally
relates to. It's natural.
00:19:59.48\00:20:03.38
See the thing that excites me
00:20:03.39\00:20:05.03
about that is we've
been talking about nature.
00:20:05.04\00:20:06.82
Yes. Natural
setting, natural learning,
00:20:06.83\00:20:08.83
every thing needs to be natural.
00:20:08.84\00:20:11.81
Well, the brain is
natural, the brain is natural,
00:20:11.82\00:20:14.99
God created the brain.
00:20:15.00\00:20:16.26
God created us to operate
within the laws of the brain.
00:20:16.27\00:20:19.58
Right. So why not do it?
00:20:19.59\00:20:22.30
Right, I'm convinced. Good.
00:20:22.31\00:20:25.83
The, we've talked
about context and challenge,
00:20:25.84\00:20:29.64
our program is gonna run out
00:20:29.65\00:20:30.85
probably before we
get all the information
00:20:30.86\00:20:32.47
that we wanted on this program,
00:20:32.48\00:20:33.59
but there is style
that we could talk about.
00:20:33.60\00:20:36.10
Yes. And then there is,
00:20:36.11\00:20:37.46
if you want to get
into that preference.
00:20:37.47\00:20:39.87
Well, I can do
that real quickly.
00:20:39.88\00:20:41.00
Okay, which one? Both of them.
00:20:41.01\00:20:42.49
Okay. We all have
different styles of learning
00:20:42.50\00:20:45.90
and we have Dr. Howard Gardner,
00:20:45.91\00:20:49.93
Harvard University has
finally opened up the idea
00:20:49.94\00:20:53.65
that the IQ is
not the all important
00:20:53.66\00:20:56.69
measure of intelligence. Right.
00:20:56.70\00:20:58.52
In fact it's just
an artificial measure
00:20:58.53\00:21:01.83
of mental ability that
never really was useful.
00:21:01.84\00:21:06.39
And achievement tests.
00:21:06.40\00:21:07.81
Well, achievement test
is another not useful tool.
00:21:07.82\00:21:11.55
Achievement test do not
allow, and this is a topic
00:21:11.56\00:21:15.00
for a whole other discussion,
00:21:15.01\00:21:16.59
but achievement test do
not measure achievement.
00:21:16.60\00:21:19.29
Right, I was just
curious, go ahead, I'm sorry.
00:21:19.30\00:21:21.52
So we're talking about style.
00:21:21.53\00:21:23.40
There are at least
00:21:23.41\00:21:24.51
seven different
kinds of intelligence.
00:21:24.52\00:21:28.24
Intelligence usually is thought
00:21:28.25\00:21:29.79
of as being good
at school. Right.
00:21:29.80\00:21:32.12
And that's only two of
the kinds of intelligence,
00:21:32.13\00:21:34.68
the kind that is good at maths,
00:21:34.69\00:21:36.26
and the kind that
is good at language.
00:21:36.27\00:21:37.68
Yes. There is verbal linguistic,
00:21:37.69\00:21:39.54
which is one and
logical and mathematical.
00:21:39.55\00:21:41.56
And those are the
two kinds of intelligence
00:21:41.57\00:21:43.45
that people who make
straight A's are good at.
00:21:43.46\00:21:46.44
There are five other
kinds of intelligence
00:21:46.45\00:21:49.59
that are just equally
useful to the brain and society.
00:21:49.60\00:21:53.58
One of them is musical.
00:21:53.59\00:21:54.81
Yes, how about leadership?
00:21:54.82\00:21:56.67
Leadership, we
really aren't sure,
00:21:56.68\00:21:59.68
in fact Howard Gardner
himself has just written
00:21:59.69\00:22:01.62
a book on
leadership and we're not sure
00:22:01.63\00:22:04.25
how that fits, but there is
a hint that that may in fact
00:22:04.26\00:22:07.79
be yet another
kind of intelligence.
00:22:07.80\00:22:10.11
Really? Yeah, but
the ones that he knows
00:22:10.12\00:22:13.98
from research exist besides
the logical mathematical,
00:22:13.99\00:22:16.82
and verbal
linguistic and then the musical.
00:22:16.83\00:22:19.97
Spacial, just the idea
of where you're orientation,
00:22:19.98\00:22:22.88
where you are in space.
00:22:22.89\00:22:24.31
You know, how some people can--
00:22:24.32\00:22:25.58
A sense of your environment
00:22:25.59\00:22:26.99
or a sense of where you are.
00:22:27.00\00:22:28.51
A sense of where
you are, orientation
00:22:28.52\00:22:30.35
and being able to get some place
00:22:30.36\00:22:31.90
without you've been
using a map some people--
00:22:31.91\00:22:34.43
Oh, Tom does that very well.
00:22:34.44\00:22:36.35
And it typically
is men who do that,
00:22:36.36\00:22:38.41
but it's probably
because little boys experience
00:22:38.42\00:22:42.84
kinds of activities that
lead them into that activity,
00:22:42.85\00:22:46.71
lead them into
that intelligence.
00:22:46.72\00:22:47.85
Like getting lost in the woods.
00:22:47.86\00:22:49.00
When you grew up on the farm.
00:22:49.01\00:22:51.24
These kinds of
intelligence by the way are not,
00:22:51.25\00:22:54.61
they we're born with
all ability to do all seven.
00:22:56.07\00:22:58.78
It depends on
how much we develop
00:22:58.79\00:23:00.71
as to whether which ones
we become really good at.
00:23:00.72\00:23:03.53
Then that's four,
five is bodily kinesthetic.
00:23:03.54\00:23:09.14
The ability to do
things physically.
00:23:09.15\00:23:11.79
Yes. You know,
00:23:11.80\00:23:13.40
probably the
greatest basketball player
00:23:13.41\00:23:14.78
that ever lived was who?
00:23:14.79\00:23:16.74
I don't know. Okay.
00:23:16.75\00:23:17.82
I'm sorry, I'm sorry
you're asking the wrong person,
00:23:17.83\00:23:20.91
Michael Jordan. That's it.
00:23:20.92\00:23:22.22
That's the one, probably so
00:23:22.23\00:23:23.54
and people
nowadays would say that,
00:23:23.55\00:23:25.25
but if you've ever seen
00:23:25.26\00:23:26.33
Michael Jordan
go down the court.
00:23:26.34\00:23:29.68
Which I never have, but anyway.
00:23:29.69\00:23:32.20
He is going through a
set of physical activities
00:23:32.21\00:23:35.74
which are all
controlled in the brain.
00:23:35.75\00:23:38.81
And that is a
kind of intelligence
00:23:38.82\00:23:41.93
which can be
developed in any kind of way.
00:23:41.94\00:23:44.93
It can be developed by
a person riding a horse
00:23:44.94\00:23:49.19
or a person playing
the piano. Oh, really.
00:23:49.20\00:23:51.18
Person playing the piano
has both musical intelligence
00:23:51.19\00:23:54.27
and bodily
kinesthetic intelligence,
00:23:54.28\00:23:56.48
and may or may
not have other kinds,
00:23:56.49\00:23:58.47
although there is a
connection apparently
00:23:58.48\00:24:00.08
between piano playing and
logical mathematical also.
00:24:00.09\00:24:03.93
Then there is
interpersonal intelligence,
00:24:03.94\00:24:08.24
now that's probably
where leadership is involved,
00:24:08.25\00:24:11.69
but we're not sure.
00:24:11.70\00:24:12.80
Interpersonal intelligence
is the ability of a person
00:24:12.81\00:24:15.98
to actually
have expertise in how
00:24:15.99\00:24:18.59
they get along with other people
00:24:18.60\00:24:20.20
and that's
controlled in the brain.
00:24:20.21\00:24:22.03
And then the last one the
seventh one is intrapersonal,
00:24:22.04\00:24:25.77
knowing yourself, to
thine own self be true.
00:24:25.78\00:24:29.54
Order in your private world.
00:24:29.55\00:24:31.15
Yes, and
meditation, and you know,
00:24:31.16\00:24:34.74
Jesus loves a great
while before day went out
00:24:34.75\00:24:37.68
into the desert to
be alone and to pray.
00:24:37.69\00:24:39.68
This is an intelligence?
00:24:39.69\00:24:40.66
Yes, that's an intelligence.
00:24:40.67\00:24:42.87
Poets are really good at
that kind of intelligence, yeah.
00:24:42.88\00:24:47.21
And so there are seven different
00:24:47.22\00:24:49.56
and then Howard Gardener says,
00:24:49.57\00:24:51.16
please don't assume that seven
00:24:51.17\00:24:52.59
that we've kind of
isolated are all there is.
00:24:52.60\00:24:56.08
There may be many more,
00:24:56.09\00:24:57.95
there may be a
gustatory intelligence,
00:24:57.96\00:25:00.27
you know one
that we use in taste
00:25:00.28\00:25:02.42
and savoring food and so on.
00:25:02.43\00:25:05.50
And yet when you
put all that together,
00:25:05.51\00:25:07.31
it's all the brain
and it's all this brain
00:25:07.32\00:25:09.57
that God made
that gives us so much,
00:25:09.58\00:25:12.26
so many options.
00:25:12.27\00:25:13.65
Now that's style.
00:25:13.66\00:25:14.69
Yes. Everybody
has different style.
00:25:14.70\00:25:16.66
Can you talk
preference here before we quit?
00:25:16.67\00:25:19.39
Yes, I can. Well all I
say is we shouldn't value
00:25:19.40\00:25:21.93
just two of the styles.
00:25:21.94\00:25:23.64
We should value
all of the seven.
00:25:23.65\00:25:25.21
Preference has to do
00:25:25.22\00:25:26.33
with whether we're
auditory or visual or tactile.
00:25:26.34\00:25:31.94
I'm an auditory person.
00:25:31.95\00:25:33.49
I'll talk, and
talk and talk, and talk,
00:25:33.50\00:25:35.75
I don't see
pictures in my brain.
00:25:35.76\00:25:37.51
Most people about 75%
of the people see pictures.
00:25:37.52\00:25:41.22
When I say the word cow,
00:25:41.23\00:25:42.78
I don't see the
picture of a cow,
00:25:42.79\00:25:44.40
I don't see the word
cow, I can hear it moo,
00:25:44.41\00:25:47.65
I can hear a whole
barn full of cows moo,
00:25:47.66\00:25:50.03
but I don't see
anything called a cow.
00:25:50.04\00:25:52.39
I often ask my graduate
students in the classes,
00:25:52.40\00:25:55.14
when I say cow what do you see?
00:25:55.15\00:25:56.52
And typically it's
a black and white cow
00:25:56.53\00:25:58.23
and for reason it's
usually facing left.
00:25:58.24\00:26:00.73
I don't know why
that is, but nevertheless
00:26:00.74\00:26:04.19
I'm not a visual person,
00:26:04.20\00:26:05.89
auditory people are
about 25% of the population.
00:26:05.90\00:26:09.16
We learn auditorily,
visual people need pictures,
00:26:09.17\00:26:12.26
auditory people need auditory,
00:26:12.27\00:26:14.15
tactile people need
to feel, to touch. Yes.
00:26:14.16\00:26:16.64
And all three of those
are incredibly important.
00:26:16.65\00:26:19.81
Supposing
you're a visual teacher
00:26:19.82\00:26:21.52
and you have
auditory and tactile students.
00:26:21.53\00:26:23.84
Supposing you're a parent,
00:26:23.85\00:26:25.31
father is auditory as in
our case, and my wife is visual.
00:26:25.32\00:26:29.27
Yes. It's very important
00:26:29.28\00:26:31.01
that we know how to communicate,
00:26:31.02\00:26:32.26
because we're
gonna be communicating
00:26:32.27\00:26:33.72
right past each
other and having arguments
00:26:33.73\00:26:35.96
that don't need to exist.
00:26:35.97\00:26:37.23
Unless we understand that,
00:26:37.24\00:26:38.73
and what if our kids
happen to be tactile?
00:26:38.74\00:26:41.65
Then we're going to say,
00:26:41.66\00:26:42.72
don't you
understand what I'm saying?
00:26:42.73\00:26:44.83
And they're gonna
say No, I can't feel it.
00:26:44.84\00:26:46.54
All right. And my wife
said, don't see what I mean.
00:26:46.55\00:26:50.10
Yes. And Michael might
say, no, I don't feel it at all.
00:26:50.11\00:26:53.66
Right. So we have our
natural tendencies to learn
00:26:53.67\00:26:57.73
and we have the
natural ways that we learn,
00:26:57.74\00:27:00.85
and we have the
natural style that we learn.
00:27:00.86\00:27:03.86
And when all of
those are accounted for
00:27:03.87\00:27:06.95
and it's easier to do
that in a natural setting.
00:27:06.96\00:27:10.84
When that's all taken care of,
00:27:10.85\00:27:12.47
then wonder of wonders.
00:27:12.48\00:27:15.13
The learning
just kind of blossoms,
00:27:15.14\00:27:17.60
it just kind of
grows and develops.
00:27:17.61\00:27:20.42
And we call that
natural learning, why not?
00:27:20.43\00:27:24.75
Dr. Tucker, you
have to come back,
00:27:24.76\00:27:26.20
'cause we didn't get to finish.
00:27:26.21\00:27:27.62
Okay. I think I want to
read this statement again.
00:27:27.63\00:27:32.67
And it has to do
with natural setting,
00:27:32.68\00:27:35.18
teach the children
to see Christ in nature,
00:27:35.19\00:27:37.87
take them out into the open air,
00:27:37.88\00:27:39.28
under the noble
trees into the garden
00:27:39.29\00:27:42.38
and into all the
wonderful works of creation.
00:27:42.39\00:27:45.49
Teach them to see an
expression of God's love
00:27:45.50\00:27:48.49
and that's found
in child guidance,
00:27:48.50\00:27:50.60
which is a wonderful book
for teaching natural things,
00:27:50.61\00:27:54.22
and for teaching the family
00:27:54.23\00:27:55.53
how to take care of their home.
00:27:55.54\00:27:57.18
Join us again here,
on Thinking About Home.
00:27:57.19\00:27:59.68