Participants: Kathy Matthews, James Tucker
Series Code: TAH
Program Code: TAH000100
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00:30 Hi, I'm Kathy Matthews, and this is Thinking about Home.
00:34 And I'm glad you're with us again today. 00:36 Last time we were talking about family life naturally 00:39 and we were talking about our home setting and we were 00:43 talking to Dr. Jim Tucker from Andrews University. 00:46 Jim, I'm glad you're back again. 00:48 Good to be back. 00:49 And we're going to, why don't you just review us 00:52 a little bit about the last time. 00:54 Well, the last time we talked, we talked about 00:55 the fact that God created a garden 00:58 and then He put us our first parents in that garden, 01:02 you know, that was the natural setting 01:04 for the first family and in my belief system in UAE, 01:09 there's never been an improvement on that. 01:11 Yeah. We are better off if we try to emulate 01:14 that original setting for our families. 01:18 Oh, you know, and that brings a thought to me 01:20 out of 'Ministry of Healing,' and Ministry of Healing 01:22 was one of my husband, one of most favorite books 01:26 that my husband Tom has. 01:28 And in it, it was God gave a plan to Israel 01:31 to live on the country, and each one had to have 01:33 a place of their own. 01:34 And no thinking, devising of man 01:36 has ever improved upon His plan. Amen. 01:38 And it makes me think, then obviously Jesus 01:41 had a certain type of setting, 01:43 what kind of setting in His day did He have? 01:47 In the book, Desire of Ages, we're told that God selected 01:51 the setting for Jesus to grow up in 01:54 and it was not in the village or town of Nazareth, 01:59 it was in the hills outside of Nazareth, 02:02 in a country setting with the plants and the animals 02:07 and the things of nature all around Him, 02:10 that's where He grew up as a child. 02:13 Well, that would certainly be an example to us, 02:18 we need to think about what kind of setting 02:20 that we're growing up in, if that's what God put Him in. 02:24 Did God do anything without a reason? 02:25 Well, no, and that's exactly right, 02:27 it is so obvious, it seems to me that 02:30 if God put Adam and Eve in a garden. Yes. 02:33 In a natural setting, and then God says, 02:36 it's now time to bring My Son into the picture. Yes. 02:39 He is going to save the world, 02:40 and He is going to emulate and be the model for all times. 02:45 Then you'd wanna look at the kind of setting 02:48 God placed Him in and think there has to be 02:52 something significant about that. 02:54 Well, since we're talking about Him and nature, 02:57 what kind of role did nature play then in Jesus childhood? 03:02 Well, think about Jesus now, He's the creator of the world. 03:05 He's now come as a tiny baby and He is growing up 03:09 with the birds and the plants and the garden 03:13 that His parents have, and He's having to learn 03:16 all these things as a child. 03:18 And one of the things that occurs to Him 03:21 as He is discovering under the influence of 03:24 the Holy Spirit that He is something more 03:28 than just a little boy. 03:30 At some point it's got to occur to Him, 03:33 wow! I'm, these are things I made. 03:39 And that bond with the things of nature, 03:42 it just, it thrills me to imagine what kind of 03:46 thoughts went through His mind 03:48 as He began to communicate with the things that, 03:52 that He had made. 03:54 And in fact, probably my favorite phrase 03:59 relating to nature and the use of nature 04:02 and learning how to be as we should be is from the book, 04:07 Desire of Ages by Ellen White and page 70, 04:11 where she uses a phrase that we've heard, 04:15 anyone who's read that book has had this phrase 04:19 in their mind for a long time, 04:21 it's a very short phrase, and you'd-- 04:23 I just now think I know what it is, but go ahead. 04:26 He lived to bless others. 04:30 Yes, and that phrase a lot of us have had brought 04:34 to our attention many, many times over the years. 04:37 He lived to bless others and wow, what an example. 04:41 He presented to us His whole life was a blessing to others, 04:46 which is what we should do. 04:48 But very few people know what the next sentence is. 04:53 And the next sentence. I can't think about it either. 04:55 Well, we don't read the rest of it, 04:57 we just stop right there because 04:59 it's such a powerful statement. 05:01 But the next sentence tells us 05:04 how He learned how to do that. 05:07 Oh, and that's what we're telling about. 05:10 And that's exactly what we're talking about. 05:12 So the first sentence is "He lived to bless others," 05:15 and then for this, for blessing others 05:19 He found resources in nature. 05:22 Peroid, and then the next sentence is, 05:24 new ideas of ways and means to do what? 05:29 Bless others, flashed into His mind 05:32 as He studied plant life and animal life. 05:37 Now, I mean. Why would we do anything else? 05:40 That's right. New ideas of ways 05:42 and means to be a blessing to mankind 05:45 flashed into His mind. 05:47 The Holy Spirit of course. 05:49 And further down that page, Ellen White says that 05:53 every child today may learn as Jesus learned 05:57 from the things of nature. 05:59 But parents somehow have to be able to get that 06:02 going in their mind. Yes. 06:04 To draw it out, get it going and draw it out. 06:07 Yes. And it's not as hard as we think however. 06:11 Parents are often put off as we talked about last time, 06:15 by that the thought that they have to be all knowledgeable, 06:18 or they have to be a biology professor 06:20 or they have to know the names of everything. 06:22 Parents really, all they have to do is 06:24 just get the kids as young as possible 06:27 and as often as possible out of the house, 06:30 into the garden, into the fields, 06:32 into the woods, just get them there 06:33 and let the environment speak on its own. 06:36 Let the curiosity take place. Yes, exactly. 06:40 And what else, what else do you have, 06:42 what gems of truth do you have 06:43 more for us about Jesus childhood. 06:45 Well, Jesus learned in His childhood 06:48 about all the things He had made 06:52 and then He drew from those examples 06:55 His most powerful messages. 06:59 In fact, if you recall the text 07:01 He spoken to them in parables. Right. 07:03 In fact, it says, 07:04 without a parable spake He not unto them. 07:08 That's all He did, was tell stories. 07:10 And if you look at those stories, 07:12 most of them, virtually all of them 07:14 come from His experience, from His knowledge 07:17 base of nature and the surroundings that they had, 07:20 had enjoyed. A good example. Okay. 07:25 On this the Sermon on the Mount, 07:28 here they are gathered on hillside on, 07:31 overlooking the sea. 07:34 And He's got His people waiting 07:38 for these gems of wisdom and He just looks around 07:42 and takes from what's there, and says, 07:46 consider the lilies how they grow. 07:50 Now, I love to ask this question 07:53 when I'm presenting to audiences. 07:57 In fact, I'll ask the audience, 07:58 hey, what color do you think that lily was? 08:02 And everybody always says white, of course. 08:07 Well, there is not a white lily 08:08 that has ever grown in Palestine. Really? 08:11 In fact, they weren't lilies, 08:15 that's just the way the translator translated 08:18 the word for whatever kind of flower it was. 08:21 And it was just as soon because of these two lilies 08:24 or something that they were lilies, but in fact, 08:27 that hillside even today is carpeted with, 08:32 during the flowering season, 08:34 with little flowers called anemones. 08:38 And those flowers are just like a carpet there, 08:41 in fact you can get pressed, people will send a bag 08:46 from Israel when they go over there, 08:50 they will get little cards with pressed anemones, yeah. 08:53 And they'll send those as gift cards 08:57 those and the colors of those flowers were, 09:01 are red and purple, and red and purple primarily, 09:07 purple and scarlet. 09:08 And it stands to reason, because then He says, 09:10 Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 09:14 And Solomon and the kingly colors are purple and scarlet. 09:18 If it had been white, He would have said 09:20 something like Aaron or the high priest 09:21 or something. He could have said that. 09:23 But He used the illustration and then He developed 09:27 the idea of the gospel around the growth of the plant. 09:32 And that whole growth of the flower, 09:36 the grain of mustard seed, the corn planted, 09:39 and the seed is the word of God He says. 09:42 When He cursed the leaves or the fig tree, 09:46 because it didn't have any fruit in a particular way, 09:51 the fig tree has fruit first and then leaves. 09:54 So if there's leaves, you would assume it has fruit, 09:58 but there was just leaves and then it reminds me 10:00 of that song, "Nothing but leaves for the Master." 10:03 Just our pretensions. Yeah. 10:05 And there was a curse there, 10:07 the hypocrisy of just pretensions. 10:10 Jesus developed on that whole plant metaphor, 10:15 the whole plan of salvation, the whole idea of the gospel. 10:20 So where did He learn that, 10:23 when did He learn those things as a child. 10:25 Obviously, had started as a child. 10:27 I wonder how much Mary must have been out there 10:28 with Him teaching these things. 10:30 Well, I don't know that Mary taught Him those things, 10:33 I think maybe the Holy Spirit taught. 10:35 They're in as a lesson for us, 10:37 we are parents, we don't know 10:39 much about how the plant grows 10:42 or these kinds of things but,the Holy Spirit does. 10:44 Not the average parent anyway. 10:45 Right, but some may, don't know too much, Kathy. 10:50 You know, we, sometimes we won a trip, 10:52 we want to make our children into Wizkids. 10:57 We want them to be walking encyclopedias 10:59 of facts that we can showoff to the neighbors. 11:02 That's not what learning is about, 11:04 learning is developing ideas and concepts, 11:08 and the idea that there is a wonder to what God has made, 11:14 and what I can learn. 11:15 And how I can apply it. 11:17 So Jesus learned the things of nature, 11:20 and then applied it in His service, 11:23 new ideas of ways and means flashed into His mind 11:27 with the Holy Spirit as He studied 11:29 plant life and animal life. 11:31 So, obviously nature was a very important part 11:35 with His teaching methods. 11:36 I really think so. Yeah. 11:40 Why do you think it was so, so much? 11:43 Well, it was the original book, 11:46 as we talked about last time, God wrote two books. 11:49 And He wrote the book of nature first 11:51 and then when the devil corrupted the pages 11:54 of that book, God had to write His words 11:59 down in a little more tangible way, 12:01 in black and white on parchment. 12:05 And we have the Bible. 12:06 And that, but that's His second book. 12:08 His very first book was the book of nature 12:11 which He wrote in the, in six days by the way. Right. 12:14 And then He gave us the seventh day to study it 12:17 and develop its themes, 12:19 but we were to learn of Him through it. 12:21 What about the lessons that the hearers, 12:24 the hearers of these lessons, 12:27 how these nature parables 12:29 would affect them in the future? 12:30 Well, when you hear a sermon, what do you remember? 12:35 The stories. And you tell the stories later that day, 12:40 later that week, you have this wonderful story 12:43 and the message of the story is subtly imparted 12:47 to the soul through the story. 12:50 A sermon without stories, without illustration 12:52 is a really dry and boring thing, 12:54 and the brain has a wonderful way of stopping 12:59 attending to boring and dry things. 13:02 It just shuts down, it thinks about other things, 13:06 but when its. Unfortunately. 13:07 Well, that's the way we're made. 13:09 So I don't know if it's unfortunately or not, 13:11 it's just the way we are. 13:12 And if, so when God makes this natural way of learning, 13:17 the natural way it's got illustrations all around us. 13:21 And stories appeared to be Jesus method of teaching, 13:27 I can't do any better than that. 13:29 The master teacher. That's right. 13:31 I need to use the illustrations, 13:33 the kinds of illustration to use, 13:35 the kind of, we call it pedagogy, 13:37 the kind of teaching techniques that He used. 13:41 And it seems to me if I do that, 13:44 I will be more effective not because of any pride 13:47 that I have, but because I'm using 13:50 the model that God gave me. 13:54 It would be the, the thing to do. 13:56 And it's naturally motivating, it's, 14:00 it comes from within, it wells from within. 14:04 Every thing we learn, Kathy, we learned on the basis of 14:07 what we are already know. 14:10 But there is the desire to know more, 14:13 there is the desire to know a little bit more. 14:15 Building on it. Yes. 14:16 Building on what we know. 14:18 In educational jargon it's called prior knowledge, 14:23 we built on prior knowledge. 14:25 And everybody has a certain amount of prior knowledge. 14:28 But when we, we are naturally motivated to learn 14:32 a little bit more, not a whole lot more, 14:34 that's frightening. 14:36 But just a little bit, not too little, 14:39 because that's boring. 14:40 But there is natural intrinsic motivation to be challenged, 14:44 to do something that we can do 14:47 or to learn something that we can learn 14:49 if it's the right amount on the basis 14:51 of what we already know. 14:52 And one way to get to that, 14:58 one way to really capture that, 15:00 the parents, teachers, church workers can use, 15:05 which is almost a variation on the parable thing, 15:08 when a person starts to say, starts to tell a story, 15:13 he says, that reminds me of a story, 15:16 there's something in the brain that says, I'm ready. 15:19 Okay, yeah. 15:20 You can capture that in another interesting way. 15:24 You've been alerted. 15:26 Yes, which I call the mystery box. 15:28 It doesn't have to be a box, it can be a sack or a bag, 15:33 or you can even put your hands together, 15:35 what's important is that you're hiding something 15:39 that people want to know what it is. 15:41 And that's the natural motivating force 15:43 that's in all of us. 15:45 I want to know what it is. 15:46 Speaking that curiosity. 15:47 Yeah, and using that you can hold the interest of kids 15:53 especially for a longtime. 15:56 In fact, I sometimes have boxes within boxes. 15:59 I know, I know, it isn't children that get 16:02 so interested and curious, 16:03 adults are just as curious when you do that. 16:06 And so if you have a lesson that you want to teach, 16:09 and you have an illustration that you found that 16:13 will teach it, you put it in a box. 16:16 And then if you want to really do it, 16:18 well you put that in another box and you say, 16:20 boys and girls or children or Johnny and Mary, 16:24 I have something special here and you have 16:27 everyone's attention at that point. 16:29 There's, it doesn't matter. 16:31 They're glued on the box, what's in the box? 16:34 And they will even listen for quite a period of time 16:36 while you're talking, but eventually 16:39 you're gonna have to open the box. Right. 16:41 And if their hands don't creep on it 16:42 and try to open it for you. 16:43 That's right. Now, what I, 16:45 if I want to talk longer 16:47 and I don't want to get to the box yet, 16:49 that's when I'll have a box in a box. 16:52 So I will open the box and I've got every eye 16:55 and every attention, then I'll take the smaller box 16:58 out of that and I'll just keep talking. 17:01 But eventually something has to come out of the box 17:04 and it could be alive. 17:06 I have a big box as you know in shape of a-- 17:09 Yes, a Bible. Of a Bible that I call God's other book 17:14 or God's first book and I've carried into 17:16 campfires or into the house with the kids, 17:20 live animals, even live snakes. 17:22 You carried a dead bird in the one that I saw. 17:25 Yeah, that's true, because it wasn't alive 17:26 it had been hit by a car and we had a, 17:29 yes, I remember that. 17:30 And whatever you have in there, 17:34 when it comes out it has everyone's attention. 17:38 And then you can use that as an illustration. 17:41 Motivation is a very interesting thing, 17:45 motivation is natural and intrinsic, 17:49 it is not, in spite to what people seem to think, 17:53 extrinsic, external. 17:56 You mean, cultivated. Well-- 17:58 Well, it can't be cultivated. 18:00 I don't know, I've spend a lot of time 18:02 studying motivation and the most powerful form of 18:07 motivation that anybody knows is that which 18:11 wells up from within, the desire to know, 18:14 the desire to do. 18:15 And an interesting discovery over the last few years, 18:20 even with heavy research to support it says that, 18:24 when you provide rewards as a motivating techniquev 18:27 or punishment as a motivating technique. 18:31 You actually reduce the amount of motivation that you get, 18:36 you actually, if you continue to reward, 18:39 the power of the motivation continues to be reduce 18:43 until it goes away entirely. 18:45 If you provide punishment and you just keep punishing 18:48 and punishing the power of the motivation 18:51 or the power of the punishment to get the motivation, 18:54 gets reduced and reduced until it goes away. 18:57 This is sure studies. 18:58 Absolutely, there is no question, 19:00 you read a, if you want to read some books 19:02 I can tell you those books "Punished by Rewards," 19:05 or it is a good one by Alfie Kohn. 19:09 Where years of research has demonstrated 19:13 beyond the shadow of a doubt that what is truly motivating 19:18 is inspiring the heart, inspiring the mind 19:21 with the natural environmental influences that occur. 19:25 And that's the way our brain is made, 19:28 that's the way our mind is put together. 19:33 And nature, the things of nature 19:36 are among the most highly motivating aspects 19:42 of our environment, why else would there be 19:45 such popular subjects for movies, 19:50 for advertising spots on television, 19:55 for stories, animal stories. 20:00 So even the enemy can use the real motivating. 20:02 Oh, absolutely. 20:04 The real factor for motivating. 20:07 Absolutely. Well, you know, 20:09 I suppose then the parents' duty would be 20:11 then to seek really to know the child to the point 20:15 where they can really see what they're motivated on. 20:17 But, Jim, that's not like math, math, 20:19 you know, sometimes you just have to grit 20:22 your teeth and bear down and-- 20:24 Well, not really. Right. 20:27 That's only true after you've passed 20:29 the teachable moment, so to speak. 20:31 Well, what about the multiplication tables 20:33 that's way down there. 20:35 Multiplication tables are fun to learn 20:37 at a certain stage in life, because they're a challenge. 20:42 I've had kids learn the entire multiplication tables 20:45 in three, one hour settings 20:48 when they had been trying for three years 20:51 and hadn't been able to learn them. 20:52 So capitalize on the interest moment. 20:56 Yeah, and the prior knowledge, 20:57 just building on what they know and asking them 21:00 only to learn a little new, a new little bit at a time. 21:04 Now we're getting into a different subject, 21:05 but it's one that's of great interest to everyone 21:09 and it's one that I learned actually 21:11 from the study of nature. 21:13 Well, are we to just teach our children 21:18 only when they feel like it, when they're motivated? 21:20 Oh, no, no, but the most, 21:24 there is a discipline involved in ordered 21:30 curricular presentation. 21:31 And we do have to learn to live in--By a schedule. 21:34 Yeah, there is no question about that. 21:37 But there is an easier way to learn 21:40 that as the child develops, if you wait till your child's 21:44 a teenager and then try to impose a schedule 21:47 or try to teach them the 21:48 multiplication factor, forget it. 21:51 It has to be done when the children are young 21:54 and when the brains are naturally prepared 21:57 to learn those kinds of things. 21:59 Unless they're motivated at a latter day if there is 22:01 some sort of other reason 22:03 that's caused them to be motivated. 22:04 Yeah, like a boyfriend or a girlfriend. 22:05 Right, right, that's what I mean, 22:06 some other motivation that's caused them. 22:08 Yes, but that also I have to admit is intrinsic, 22:12 you know, that's a naturally emerging motivation, 22:15 it maybe an extrinsic individual, 22:18 but it's what comes from within that causes 22:20 me to be attracted in that way. 22:23 So is it really that easy? 22:25 Yeah, it really is that easy, it's that ease, 22:28 no, it's not that easy, it's that simple. Okay. 22:32 But we have complicated things like motivation, 22:35 we have complicated things like learning and teaching, 22:39 we've made it more difficult, 22:41 because we've tried to order it in terms of 22:46 putting everybody in the same mold. 22:49 If things like grades, putting everybody 22:54 in the first grade. Right. 22:55 Well, the brain doesn't work that way, 22:56 there is nothing first grade about the brain, 23:00 the brain learns on the basis of what it already knows. 23:03 And every kids in the first grade is at a different place. 23:08 When you go out into the woods, 23:10 the thing that is neat about that is that 23:12 it doesn't matter what the curriculum is. 23:15 One very young child is gonna be just fascinated 23:20 by a butterfly, an older child is gonna wanna 23:24 see something more in that butterfly, 23:26 is gonna wanna know why they open their wings 23:29 the way they do, why sometimes they fold the wings 23:32 the way they do and what are the physical aspects 23:36 of heat and light that govern that. 23:40 Well, that's the way it should be for older one 23:42 they should have more analytical thinking, 23:44 more interest in deeper things. 23:47 Yes, but if you try to put that in the form of 23:49 a curriculum when all the kids are learning the same thing. 23:53 Supposing you're trying to teach 23:54 the more advanced material to individuals 23:57 who never learned the more simplistic? 23:59 Then you're taking the prior knowledge 24:01 and trying to make too big a job, 24:03 you've lost the motivation. 24:05 The motivation has to be in 24:07 little small increments at a time. 24:09 It says, they have to grow by steps. 24:13 That's why individual learning is preferable 24:17 to large group learning. 24:18 That's why families can operate a school 24:22 and end up being more efficient, 24:24 more effective than large schools. 24:27 So, how important now then is 24:29 nature study to the family life today? 24:33 I think it's critical, if I had to say 24:36 there is one thing that families could do 24:40 from early childhood, just one. 24:43 You know, remember to do that one thing, 24:46 it would be to provide the children 24:49 with an environment that was as natural as possible, 24:55 and allow them their curiosity to be stimulated. 25:00 And encourage them to pursue those questions, 25:06 the quest for information. 25:08 Just allow them to develop. 25:10 In school we call it project base learning, 25:14 and it's, in some respects, the latest thing. 25:17 Project base. Project base. 25:19 Is that something like that unit studies? 25:20 No. What's a project base? 25:22 A project base is where you have an idea or a question 25:25 that you want to answer and you gather 25:28 the students together, two, three or one student 25:30 or more, and say, how should we solve 25:34 this problem, this is a project? 25:36 Okay. So, we're all gonna work on this together. 25:37 You work together as a team. 25:38 Yes, cooperative learning is another term. 25:41 And how do we solve the problem. 25:43 And so in the process of solving the problem 25:46 by the way, you may have to learn some multiplication, 25:49 you may actually have to apply some, 25:51 which then people say, kids will say, oh, wow! 25:54 I just figured out why it's important to know that, 25:58 because I'm gonna need to use it. 26:00 So the motivation is there, the levels of prior knowledge 26:06 are provided for and the guidance that is required 26:12 then doesn't have to have so much expertise, 26:14 just encouragement. 26:16 The kind of encouragement 26:18 that my father used to say for example was. 26:21 Well, you know, I bet you can do that. 26:24 Yes. And he had no idea how, I bet you can. 26:28 Did you ever say, oh, I don't think I can? 26:30 No, not because from my youngest days, 26:32 I can remember my mom and dad encouraging me and my brother 26:37 to do whatever we felt we could do. 26:39 And they would even encourage us to do things 26:42 beyond what we felt we could do, 26:44 and find out we weren't ready, 26:46 then there wasn't any, we didn't get a F grade 26:48 for it if we weren't ready for it. 26:50 We just would say, oops, I'm not ready for that, 26:53 I can't do that, I'll try that next time. 26:55 The natural recognition. 26:56 Yeah, so it worked out pretty well. 27:01 Parents, families together 27:06 in a natural environment, 27:08 allowing the natural environment, 27:10 natural learning is the kind of learning that is, 27:15 is the most motivating. 27:17 The kind that just occurs naturally 27:20 and it's not easy to do always because 27:23 we have to unlearn what we've already learned. 27:28 Well, Dr. Tucker, you will come back again, won't you? 27:31 Gladly. Oh, I hope so, 27:32 it's interesting to me and I'm sure it's interesting to you. 27:35 I want to read to you though just one sentence. 27:38 May the mother take time for the study of God's word 27:41 and take time to go with the children into the fields, 27:45 and learn of God through the beauty of His works. 27:49 And if you want to get more information on how-to's, 27:51 I'm sure you can write or call 3ABN. 27:53 And tell them what you've seen here on 27:56 "Thinking about Home." Join us. |
Revised 2014-12-17