Should Christian
churches talk about abortion
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or should they keep silent.
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And if they do talk
about it what should they say
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and what should they do?
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We're going to explore that
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right here next on
The Abortion Controversy.
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Welcome back to The
Abortion Controversy.
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This is Program 7 of 13.
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We have been
discussing the topics
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of life, death,
fetuses, a personhood, abortion,
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whether it's
right, whether it's wrong
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and about trauma that
women had gone through
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who have had abortions.
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My guests, my special
guests have been Antionette Duck
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and Dianne Wagner
of Mafgia ministry.
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They are two ladies
that have hit the-trail.
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They are speaking in conferences
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before physicians
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and they're just talking to
a lot of people about issues
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that need to be talked about.
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So here we go.
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One more program,
at least for today.
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Ladies, thank you
again for joining me
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and for sharing your
stories and sharing hearts.
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Now today we're
gonna talk about the church
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and I'd like to start out
with the couple of Bible verses
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in the Book of Matthew,
you are familiar with this,
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at the beginning
of the New Testament.
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John the Baptist was a voice.
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"The voice of one
crying in the wilderness
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preparing the way for the Lord,"
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for Jesus when he
came, His first coming
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and then after
Jesus' Resurrection
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He told His disciples, He
said, "Go into all the world."
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And he gave the
church a mission,
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to be a voice in
wilderness like John the Baptist
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and to reveal His love
and His goodness, His Cross,
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the value of life and
standards of right and wrong
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and to do it
with a heart of love.
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So we're gonna
talk about the church
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and I'm really
following your lead.
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You can get
them in your sequence
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and this is
where you want to go.
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So Dianne, I think
I'll start with you.
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Talk about the church
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and what
happened with your church
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when you found yourself as a,
I believe it was a 25 year old.
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You were engaged to be married,
you made a mistake one time,
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discovered that
you were pregnant
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and you life
was in a "worldwind"
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as you told us before
and so let's just zero
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in a little more
on the church issue
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and what you needed and
maybe what you didn't get.
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Well, you made a
couple of good points
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I want to
capitalize on right now
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and the voice in the wilderness
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and a voice is not a
voice if it's silent.
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That's right, you
got a good point there.
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So based on that,
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when you said you know,
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should the Christian churches
remain silent on this issue,
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no, they shouldn't.
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There should be a
voice on this issue.
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Especially since, as we
talked about this before,
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approximately 45 million babies
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are being aborted
world wide every year
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and if we do the math and
57 or so million in America
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since 1973 so wow, this is a,
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it's not a topic to
just throw it the rug.
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You got to talk
about it. Exactly.
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By remaining
silent we are condoning it
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and as a church,
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we are supposed to
be standard-bearer.
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And what is the standard
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if we are supposed
to be standard-bearer
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but the Ten Commandments.
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You know the character,
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Jesus' character is reflected
in those Ten Commandments.
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Now I love the
church as I told you
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that I was brought up in
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and we were Commandment keepers.
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We kept the
Sabbath, which I loved,
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I have wonderful memories.
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You know, and there was a time
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when I stepped
away from the church,
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like I told you after
my parents had divorced.
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I saw some of
the inconsistencies
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and hypocrisies
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and so I had to step back
and ask God some questions.
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And He can deal with
that and He answered them
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so when my husband
and I gonna be married,
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we knew we wanted to
be a part of this church,
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our Seventh Day Adventist church
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and we wanted a Christian home.
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But the thing that
really breaks my heart
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is that even
though this church I loved
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valued the Sabbath commandment,
remembered the Sabbath.
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Number four.
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Number four, it was silent
in so many ways on the six.
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"Thou shalt not kill"
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and the topic of
abortion wasn't addressed,
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I don't ever remember
hearing the topic of abortion.
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In all of your 25 years.
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I don't remember that.
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Now you know, they were
girls in academy in colleges
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you know, there
might be whispering
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that this one had to
have an abortion and that one.
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But it was always kept so quiet.
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It was never talked
about. And it was a reality.
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It was a cruel
reality of what was going on.
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And so I do have
regrets that my standard-bearer
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um, dropped the ball you
know, and didn't talk about it.
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So I, I didn't go to the church
when I found myself pregnant.
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So you can just clarify to me,
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when you found
yourself pregnant,
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what would you have
wanted looking back?
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What would have wanted
your church to say to you.
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You are valuable.
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Just like we were talking
about the intrinsic valuable,
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you are valuable and that
baby is valuable you know.
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And that it's a real baby.
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And it's uh, yes, it's
a real baby with values.
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You know we get so focused
on the sin and hiding the sin
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you know, okay, we
were sexually active
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before our wedding you know.
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So much emphasis
is put on the sin
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that we forget that our Savior
who has died for our sins,
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to redeem us from
that pit you know.
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And it doesn't take away at all,
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the value that's been
placed on each one of us
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meaning, even
though I messed up.
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And the baby that I was carrying
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and that was not,
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there was nothing
like that in fact,
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you know, the message
I got from the pulpit,
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it was you know,
from another church was,
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that God couldn't
forgive and wouldn't forgive.
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And that wasn't in you church.
That was a different church.
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That was another church that
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one of my
co-workers had invited us
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but the church that
was speaking about it.
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That was after
you had the abortion?
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That was after the decision.
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So your church
wasn't talking about it,
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the other church that you went
to after you had an abortion,
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was talking about it.
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They were talking about it.
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But the way they were talking it
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was driving you away.
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Absolutely.
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So you needed something
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that obviously you'd had to deal
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with need for forgiveness
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for what you did
with your husband.
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I mean, we all need to you know,
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realize that moral
purity is God's plan.
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But then when you
found yourself pregnant
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then you needed something else
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to kick in
another message of love
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that you were still loved
and that God could forgive you
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and now you have
a new life in you
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and that life is valuable
just as you are valuable.
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Absolutely, so you asked me,
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what I would have
liked to have heard.
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And that would've been it.
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You know, and we used watch.
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We watched how other
people are dealt with you know,
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I saw how my mother who
loved the church you know.
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She was the one who saw to it
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that we got a
Christian education
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and that you know, tithe.
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Paying tithe
was important to her
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and taking us to Sabbath
school every week you know,
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and so when I saw how
they dealt with her issue,
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when her, my
father were divorced,
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you know it was like
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wow, if that's the way
it's dealt with over a divorce
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you know,
pregnancy out of wedlock
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you know, and I knew so.
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I just didn't have
security which makes me sad
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because I want you
to know I love my church
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and I still believe that
Lord has put a high calling
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on our church but I don't
think we should think that
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we are not above
you know, repair.
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We got repair work.
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Antionette, I'll
get to in just a second
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but I got one
more question I just...
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Absolutely.
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I got to ask you, did you also
need to hear from your church
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when you were pregnant,
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prior to your abortion
that abortion was something
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that you just should
not do, that it was wrong
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rather than you
know, you're free
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and if you choose to do
it and that's your choice?
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I think that's were
this silence comes in
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because when we are
silent about an issue,
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we are really making
a pretty loud statement
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as far as you know,
if we believe it's wrong
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because that baby is valuable
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and that baby was
created in the image of God,
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the creator, that
we are celebrating
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the Sabbath as a
memorial to the creation,
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you know, it just
really rocks the boat
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there as far as
being consistent so um,
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I might have
forgotten your question.
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Did you need the
church to tell you that...
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That abortion was
wrong? That abortion was wrong?
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That's right rather
than just telling you
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that you are free
to make that choice
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because I know Antionette
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you're gonna
talk about that more,
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about the freedom issue.
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You know, this is all a big,
this all wrapped up together.
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Yeah, as a society
we may have freedom
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to go get an
abortion and this country.
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It's legal.
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Right, but as a church, if
we are the standard-bearer,
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we're putting our
confidence I our creator.
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You know the church, the
church is the Lord's bride.
00:10:01.36\00:10:05.57
We are out of his mouth piece
here on the earth you know.
00:10:05.60\00:10:08.87
What we say should represent
the Lord in His standards.
00:10:08.90\00:10:13.07
And because nobody told you that
00:10:13.11\00:10:14.68
you eventually had an abortion
and it almost ruined your life.
00:10:14.71\00:10:17.61
It did and I
really had not ever,
00:10:17.65\00:10:19.98
I had never even
thought about abortion.
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It never been
really a part of my life
00:10:22.58\00:10:25.25
except for the secrets you
hear here and there in school
00:10:25.29\00:10:29.29
and I do wish it had been.
00:10:29.32\00:10:30.99
I wish that and I,
it's one of my goals
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that our young people
are educated about abortion
00:10:34.56\00:10:37.17
and the sacredness of life.
00:10:37.20\00:10:39.43
The answer is not abortion.
00:10:39.47\00:10:41.40
Got it.
00:10:41.44\00:10:42.77
Antionette, you're next.
00:10:42.80\00:10:44.61
You have a lot to say I know.
00:10:45.54\00:10:47.68
Well, you know, I think
that we really see as ministry
00:10:47.71\00:10:50.88
we see the
churches roll in three ways.
00:10:50.91\00:10:54.55
We do see the church
as the standard-bearer,
00:10:54.58\00:10:56.48
as a refuge and as a resource.
00:10:56.52\00:10:59.82
In Acts 26:18, it says,
00:10:59.85\00:11:02.36
"I am sending you
to open their eyes,
00:11:02.39\00:11:04.33
to turn them
from darkness to light
00:11:04.36\00:11:06.36
and from the
power of Satan to God
00:11:06.56\00:11:09.00
so that they may
receive forgiveness of sins
00:11:09.03\00:11:11.13
and an inheritance among those
00:11:11.17\00:11:12.83
who are
sanctified by faith in Me."
00:11:12.87\00:11:14.60
We share what is true
00:11:17.31\00:11:18.94
and in terms of
being a standard-bearer,
00:11:18.97\00:11:20.54
we as a church, there is some,
I think there's an attitude
00:11:20.58\00:11:23.78
or maybe a concern that
in speaking on this issue
00:11:23.81\00:11:27.02
we're going to
condemn or as Dianne
00:11:27.05\00:11:29.48
has shared that she experienced
00:11:29.52\00:11:30.85
or people just aren't
quite sure how to handle it
00:11:30.89\00:11:33.72
and so somehow sharing the truth
00:11:33.76\00:11:36.42
of the sanctity of life
00:11:36.46\00:11:38.56
is somehow in contrary
00:11:38.59\00:11:41.20
or opposite to
the gospel message.
00:11:41.26\00:11:43.47
We believe that
it goes hand in hand
00:11:43.50\00:11:45.30
with the gospel message.
00:11:45.33\00:11:46.67
The reason that we
seek out what is true
00:11:46.70\00:11:50.34
so that we can be a vessel
00:11:50.37\00:11:51.71
through which the
captive is set free
00:11:51.74\00:11:54.94
There is this wonderful book
00:11:54.98\00:11:59.38
that I've read
that had a line in it.
00:11:59.41\00:12:01.95
The book is called
"Redeeming in Love."
00:12:01.98\00:12:03.32
The line was,
00:12:03.35\00:12:04.69
"Would you have her
hanged on her cross forever?"
00:12:04.72\00:12:06.89
And when I read that,
00:12:06.92\00:12:08.66
the magnitude of
that just struck me
00:12:08.69\00:12:10.46
because the reality
is there's a common,
00:12:12.53\00:12:15.40
a common theme among all of us
00:12:15.43\00:12:17.80
is that someone's
going to hang on our cross
00:12:17.83\00:12:21.20
and it's either is gonna be us
00:12:21.24\00:12:22.57
or it's going to be our creator.
00:12:22.60\00:12:24.84
And the fact is that
we can't pay that debt.
00:12:24.87\00:12:31.08
If we don't yield our
lives in humility to the Lord
00:12:31.11\00:12:34.72
and confess our sins to him
and find that freedom there,
00:12:34.75\00:12:38.75
we ourselves will be
hanging on that cross
00:12:38.79\00:12:41.69
and we will spend the
rest of our lives striving
00:12:41.72\00:12:44.93
and grasping and
scraping as we are desperate
00:12:44.96\00:12:49.03
to be made whole
and to be set free.
00:12:49.06\00:12:51.27
When you said her,
00:12:52.20\00:12:53.54
what, didn't you
said the title was...
00:12:53.57\00:12:55.67
The title was
"Redeeming in love."
00:12:55.70\00:12:57.27
And then will she
hang on her cross forever?
00:12:57.31\00:12:59.67
"Would you have her
hang on her cross forever?"
00:12:59.71\00:13:01.64
And the "her" being?
00:13:01.68\00:13:03.01
A woman. A woman.
00:13:03.04\00:13:04.98
So you are saying that
00:13:05.01\00:13:06.45
if she does n't deal
with the issue or she.
00:13:06.48\00:13:09.58
I'm trying to understand
what you're saying here.
00:13:09.62\00:13:10.95
I'm saying if the church
isn't the standard-bearer
00:13:10.99\00:13:12.92
that points her to the cross.
00:13:12.95\00:13:14.59
Points her being the woman.
00:13:14.62\00:13:16.36
The post-abortive woman.
00:13:16.39\00:13:17.76
Okay, all right, that's
what I'm trying to understand.
00:13:17.79\00:13:19.46
Where is she
going to go in essence?
00:13:19.49\00:13:22.43
'Cause she'll be suffering
the guilt all her life, right?
00:13:24.23\00:13:27.17
Right, if she
doesn't find freedom.
00:13:27.20\00:13:28.54
If she doesn't give it to Jesus,
00:13:28.57\00:13:29.90
then she's on the cross.
00:13:29.94\00:13:31.27
Okay, I'm just
trying to get that.
00:13:31.31\00:13:32.64
Okay.
00:13:32.67\00:13:34.01
Yeah, and what we
can't fail to see here
00:13:34.04\00:13:36.38
is that our
separates us just as profoundly
00:13:36.41\00:13:40.72
as the sin of a
post-abortive woman
00:13:40.75\00:13:42.45
or a post-abortive man.
00:13:42.48\00:13:43.82
We're all equal at
the foot of the cross
00:13:43.85\00:13:45.62
and every single sin
that we've ever committed
00:13:45.65\00:13:47.52
separates us from the
holy, perfect standard
00:13:47.56\00:13:50.36
that we have not kept.
00:13:50.39\00:13:52.69
And if we fail to speak honestly
00:13:52.73\00:13:59.80
about this
issue, if we excuse it,
00:13:59.83\00:14:02.94
if we trivialize it,
00:14:02.97\00:14:04.37
if we dehumanize the
unborn as we talked about
00:14:04.41\00:14:07.98
because we're
trying to soft pedal
00:14:08.01\00:14:09.94
the issue somehow.
00:14:09.98\00:14:12.65
We are going to stand
at as barrier to redemption
00:14:12.68\00:14:16.42
and freedom for the very person
who so desperately needs it.
00:14:16.45\00:14:20.82
You don't need to be forgiven
for something that isn't sin
00:14:20.86\00:14:23.96
and our job is to
speak the truth in love
00:14:23.99\00:14:28.76
to be honest about this issue.
00:14:28.80\00:14:30.67
But as the
standard-bearer, to say,
00:14:32.37\00:14:34.77
you are made in the image
of the Lord, so is your baby.
00:14:34.80\00:14:37.67
And the father of this child,
00:14:37.71\00:14:40.24
you are made in
the image of the Lord,
00:14:40.28\00:14:41.61
parents or the grand parents,
00:14:41.64\00:14:42.98
you are made in
the image of the Lord,
00:14:43.01\00:14:44.65
Pastor who's been
sought for counsel,
00:14:44.68\00:14:46.65
doctor who's been
sought for the abortion,
00:14:46.68\00:14:48.55
every single one of you
00:14:48.58\00:14:49.92
were made in the
image of the Lord,
00:14:49.95\00:14:51.29
so was that unborn child.
00:14:51.32\00:14:52.65
I see, I got it
00:14:52.69\00:14:54.02
and so the churches'
role is to tell the truth
00:14:54.06\00:14:56.62
about this issue, is
to show the value of life,
00:14:56.66\00:14:58.99
is to show the
value of the woman,
00:14:59.03\00:15:01.56
the baby and that it is
wrong to have an abortion.
00:15:01.60\00:15:06.10
With the point
of, of pointing people
00:15:06.13\00:15:07.77
to the cross...
00:15:07.80\00:15:09.20
So that, yeah, so
the forgiveness is there
00:15:09.24\00:15:10.91
when I said it's
wrong to have abortion.
00:15:10.94\00:15:12.27
We'll get into other programs,
the issue of rape and incest
00:15:12.31\00:15:15.58
and if woman's life is at stake,
00:15:15.61\00:15:16.95
we'll explore or that.
00:15:16.98\00:15:18.31
But the basic
idea, I mean if you got
00:15:18.35\00:15:20.02
57 million who had abortions
00:15:20.05\00:15:22.78
and they are, a lot of
them are struggling with guilt
00:15:22.82\00:15:24.62
in order for
them, you were saying
00:15:24.65\00:15:26.32
to help them through this guilt
00:15:26.35\00:15:27.69
so they don't hang on a cross
for the rest of their lives.
00:15:27.72\00:15:30.63
They have to be
willing to accept the truth
00:15:30.66\00:15:32.39
and the church
needs to communicate
00:15:32.43\00:15:33.80
that truth in love
00:15:33.83\00:15:35.63
so people can
take responsibility,
00:15:35.66\00:15:37.03
understand, make
the right choices
00:15:37.07\00:15:38.77
and then trust Jesus
and then get out of the pit.
00:15:38.80\00:15:42.40
And that way the church moves
from standard-bearer to refuge,
00:15:42.44\00:15:47.58
a place where
people can with security
00:15:47.61\00:15:50.95
just like the cities of
refuge in the Bible you know,
00:15:50.98\00:15:54.18
when someone had broken the law,
00:15:54.22\00:15:56.38
they ran to the city of
refuge for safety and protection
00:15:56.42\00:16:00.09
and it's
symbolic of Jesus Christ.
00:16:00.12\00:16:03.36
Again, our church representative
00:16:03.93\00:16:06.59
of Jesus Christ,
what better place
00:16:06.63\00:16:08.93
for a person to
run to than the church?
00:16:08.96\00:16:11.53
They can't run into a church
if they're feeling condemned.
00:16:11.57\00:16:14.37
They're condemned already.
00:16:14.40\00:16:15.90
You know, the Lord
didn't come to condemn
00:16:15.94\00:16:18.14
just like you know, Sydna Masse
who has Ramah International,
00:16:18.17\00:16:22.51
a post abortive program
that I've mentioned to you
00:16:22.54\00:16:25.65
that she has some
excellent material.
00:16:25.68\00:16:28.62
You know, she
talks about the woman
00:16:28.65\00:16:30.25
that was caught in
adultery, excuse me,
00:16:30.29\00:16:33.36
and you know, how
the Lord told her,
00:16:33.39\00:16:37.36
"Go and sin no
more. I condemn you not."
00:16:37.39\00:16:39.66
And when I read
that I was just you know,
00:16:39.69\00:16:42.10
we're doing a pretty good job
00:16:42.13\00:16:43.63
at condemning
ourselves you know.
00:16:43.67\00:16:47.30
So back to the city of refuge,
00:16:47.34\00:16:49.04
I look at the
church as a place of refuge
00:16:49.07\00:16:51.71
that a person should be
able to go to for safety
00:16:51.74\00:16:55.01
and protection you know.
00:16:55.04\00:16:56.91
We will like, we
are the standard-bearer
00:16:56.95\00:16:59.28
but we're not the
one that condemns.
00:16:59.31\00:17:00.72
I see.
00:17:00.75\00:17:02.08
It's a balance, a
beautiful balance.
00:17:02.12\00:17:03.45
So hold up the
standard, show people
00:17:03.49\00:17:04.82
what's right and wrong
and if they've fallen then,
00:17:04.85\00:17:08.39
a place where they can
come and find forgiveness
00:17:08.42\00:17:11.13
and value and
healing at the same time.
00:17:11.16\00:17:13.46
Absolutely.
00:17:13.50\00:17:14.83
That's where you really
can feel the mercy of the Lord.
00:17:14.86\00:17:18.73
you know, He's the
God of justice and mercy.
00:17:18.77\00:17:22.40
It's a beautiful thought.
00:17:22.44\00:17:24.11
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely
00:17:24.14\00:17:26.07
and what I really
love about Sydna's book
00:17:26.11\00:17:27.91
was that she said
it was so necessary
00:17:27.94\00:17:30.71
for her to hear,
"Neither do I condemn you.
00:17:30.75\00:17:33.01
Go and sin no more."
00:17:33.05\00:17:34.38
And are we really so different
from the post abortive woman?
00:17:34.42\00:17:37.12
No, we, for some
reason we think of abortion
00:17:37.15\00:17:40.52
or the sin of abortion
00:17:40.56\00:17:43.09
as though it's so
different from our sin
00:17:43.12\00:17:45.23
but in reality we
are equal before the Lord
00:17:45.26\00:17:49.03
and how often have I
needed to hear Him say,
00:17:49.06\00:17:52.30
"Neither do I
condemn you, Antionette.
00:17:52.33\00:17:54.37
Go and sin no more."
00:17:54.40\00:17:55.74
It's, that's, that's the message
00:17:55.77\00:17:57.21
that all of us
are desperate to hear
00:17:57.24\00:17:59.27
but especially, especially
for a post-abortive woman,
00:17:59.31\00:18:02.51
especially for a
post-abortive man,
00:18:02.54\00:18:05.48
it's so
critical, it's so critical.
00:18:05.51\00:18:09.52
So then is the
church as a standard-bearer,
00:18:09.55\00:18:12.32
the refuge and now as a resource
00:18:12.35\00:18:15.99
and I love Antionette's
story of her mother.
00:18:16.02\00:18:19.73
You know, the first
time I heard Antionette
00:18:19.76\00:18:21.46
tell her story,
it was at the GYC
00:18:21.50\00:18:24.07
where we first met her
00:18:24.10\00:18:25.43
and she, if I can
share this story now?
00:18:25.47\00:18:27.90
Oh, sure.
00:18:27.94\00:18:29.27
She was telling
us about her mother
00:18:29.30\00:18:31.27
and how her mother
was in crisis pregnancy
00:18:31.31\00:18:33.74
and how she through
Christian intervention
00:18:33.78\00:18:37.35
had changed her mind
and had kept this baby
00:18:37.38\00:18:40.62
and this baby was Antionette
and it really gets to me
00:18:40.65\00:18:45.35
when I think about this story
because as I heard this story,
00:18:45.39\00:18:48.36
I realized this young woman here
00:18:48.39\00:18:50.43
is the age that my first born
00:18:50.46\00:18:52.39
would've been if
I hadn't aborted.
00:18:52.43\00:18:55.23
And I just thought resource,
the church is a resource
00:18:55.26\00:18:59.90
'cause that church
didn't just tell her mother
00:18:59.93\00:19:03.34
that abortion was wrong.
00:19:03.37\00:19:05.31
They said come, let
us help you, you know.
00:19:05.34\00:19:08.88
And, go ahead and tell the story
00:19:08.91\00:19:10.51
of what they
did for your mother.
00:19:10.55\00:19:11.88
I love that. They did.
00:19:11.91\00:19:13.55
We, um, my
mother and I eventually,
00:19:13.58\00:19:18.69
when we were on our own,
00:19:18.72\00:19:20.72
well, the church
really just embraced us.
00:19:20.76\00:19:22.76
They gave us food,
they gave us shelter,
00:19:22.79\00:19:24.89
they gave us
clothing, they literally wrapped
00:19:24.93\00:19:27.06
their arms around us
00:19:27.10\00:19:29.50
because my mother is
married it was so volatile.
00:19:29.53\00:19:32.23
We really needed
help from time to time
00:19:32.27\00:19:34.60
and we really
needed a safe place
00:19:34.64\00:19:36.00
to go to at different times
00:19:36.04\00:19:37.37
and the church literally wrapped
00:19:37.41\00:19:39.11
their arms around us.
00:19:39.14\00:19:40.48
They didn't,
they weren't silent,
00:19:40.51\00:19:42.18
they didn't say,
do what you want,
00:19:42.21\00:19:44.58
it doesn't matter
and they didn't just say
00:19:44.61\00:19:47.32
oh, life is sacred
00:19:47.35\00:19:50.09
and you shouldn't have
an abortion and then stop.
00:19:50.12\00:19:52.79
They literally became the hands
00:19:52.82\00:19:54.56
and feet of the Lord extended
00:19:54.59\00:19:56.73
and literally embraced
us as mother and child.
00:19:56.76\00:20:01.63
And later they even,
they actually had a home
00:20:01.66\00:20:06.43
for women who had chosen
00:20:06.47\00:20:07.84
where inter crisis
pregnancy situation
00:20:07.87\00:20:09.67
and then chosen to
give life to their children
00:20:09.70\00:20:13.78
and put the
children up for adoption
00:20:13.81\00:20:15.74
and women could
go and live there
00:20:15.78\00:20:17.68
for that period and
they could stay in school
00:20:17.71\00:20:20.72
or try and find a job
00:20:20.75\00:20:22.38
and they had somewhere
to go during that pregnancy
00:20:22.42\00:20:27.26
and my mother actually served
00:20:27.29\00:20:28.79
as a house mother for that home
00:20:28.82\00:20:30.99
for a period of
a couple of years.
00:20:31.03\00:20:33.53
And the church
opened that up to her
00:20:33.56\00:20:35.30
when again she
needed somewhere to go.
00:20:35.33\00:20:37.27
They truly, completely embraced
the woman and the child.
00:20:37.30\00:20:41.64
It was a holistic approach that
00:20:41.67\00:20:44.84
honoured the
value of both of us.
00:20:44.87\00:20:46.47
And it made a huge
difference in your life.
00:20:46.51\00:20:48.58
Absolutely.
00:20:48.61\00:20:49.94
So in your
situation the church really,
00:20:49.98\00:20:51.65
it really just, it fell flat.
00:20:51.68\00:20:54.42
It didn't, it didn't
give you what you needed.
00:20:54.45\00:20:57.32
In your situation, it
was a different church
00:20:57.35\00:21:00.32
and they were there
for you and for your mom.
00:21:00.36\00:21:02.19
They were.
00:21:02.22\00:21:03.56
That just shows you
know, Christian churches
00:21:03.59\00:21:06.16
have a lot of work to do.
00:21:06.19\00:21:07.70
We need to be willing
to deal with this issue
00:21:07.73\00:21:09.86
and we need to be recognized
there's a whole lot of women,
00:21:09.90\00:21:13.37
society needs help
and we've got to you know,
00:21:13.40\00:21:15.94
we are the hands
and the feet of Jesus.
00:21:15.97\00:21:18.97
We are the voice
in the wilderness,
00:21:19.01\00:21:20.34
we got to speak out and
we got to draw people in
00:21:20.38\00:21:22.74
just like Jesus loved that woman
00:21:22.78\00:21:24.55
and said that, He
said, I don't condemn you
00:21:24.58\00:21:27.25
but go and sin no more.
00:21:27.28\00:21:28.62
He recognized that there
was sin but He loved her.
00:21:28.65\00:21:31.42
He recognized the sin
and by recognizing the sin
00:21:31.45\00:21:35.99
but not having
the condemning spirit,
00:21:36.02\00:21:38.73
look at the impact that
made on that woman's life.
00:21:38.76\00:21:40.90
It changed her life.
00:21:40.93\00:21:42.26
It changed her
life and I love that
00:21:42.30\00:21:44.40
because He recognized the sin,
00:21:44.43\00:21:47.24
He didn't just
soft pedal the sin, no.
00:21:47.27\00:21:50.47
The sin was there
00:21:50.51\00:21:52.14
but there wasn't
the condemnation, right?
00:21:52.17\00:21:54.81
If churches can grasp that
00:21:54.84\00:21:58.05
then we really will be a
voice crying in the wilderness.
00:21:58.08\00:22:01.45
You know, we
really will melt hearts
00:22:01.48\00:22:03.65
and bring people to Jesus.
00:22:03.69\00:22:06.32
It will be different.
00:22:06.35\00:22:07.99
In the wilderness of the
world will be God's voice.
00:22:08.02\00:22:11.03
That's right. And
that's the calling, right?
00:22:11.06\00:22:12.53
That's the
calling of the church.
00:22:12.56\00:22:14.13
That's the calling, yeah.
00:22:14.16\00:22:15.50
To come along
side, it's not condoning
00:22:15.53\00:22:19.27
a pregnancy
outside of the bounds
00:22:19.30\00:22:22.40
that the Lord has established
00:22:22.44\00:22:24.14
but when
someone finds themselves
00:22:24.17\00:22:26.11
in a situation like that
for us to walk alongside her
00:22:26.14\00:22:29.84
and say, I will not abandon you,
00:22:29.88\00:22:32.71
you will not walk
alone, I'll walk with you.
00:22:32.75\00:22:35.72
I will be the hands and
feet of the Lord extended.
00:22:35.75\00:22:38.39
It's life changing,
absolutely life changing.
00:22:38.42\00:22:41.69
And can you think of
another example of somebody else
00:22:41.72\00:22:45.43
that this happened to that
00:22:45.46\00:22:46.80
really changed
their life as well?
00:22:46.83\00:22:49.36
I mean, I'm
sure in your ministry
00:22:49.40\00:22:51.07
you talk to other women
00:22:51.10\00:22:53.03
and I'm sure there
must be other ladies
00:22:53.07\00:22:56.44
that you met that the
church has reached out to them.
00:22:56.47\00:23:01.41
Well, actually a
lot of the stories
00:23:01.44\00:23:03.38
that I have heard,
they have come to me
00:23:03.41\00:23:05.38
and they've said, and
Antionette heard this too,
00:23:05.41\00:23:09.18
"We are so thankful
00:23:09.22\00:23:11.25
somebody is
finally talking about it."
00:23:11.29\00:23:13.86
Really?
00:23:13.89\00:23:15.22
And then they'll say,
"Let me tell you my story
00:23:15.26\00:23:17.93
or can I tell you my story?"
00:23:17.96\00:23:19.96
And it's like they have pent up.
00:23:20.00\00:23:21.86
There have been who
have it's been years
00:23:21.90\00:23:25.40
and they've never told a soul.
00:23:25.43\00:23:27.70
And it tears our heart
00:23:27.74\00:23:30.17
and it's at the
foot of Jesus experience
00:23:30.21\00:23:33.84
because these
women are confessing
00:23:33.88\00:23:37.75
and pulling out this pain that
00:23:37.78\00:23:40.98
they have kept
stuffed for years.
00:23:41.02\00:23:44.15
It's hard but it's beautiful
00:23:44.19\00:23:47.76
because they are
finally finding freedom
00:23:47.79\00:23:52.59
and peace and rest.
00:23:52.63\00:23:54.36
So instead of a lot of choice
where you're hearing women
00:23:54.40\00:23:57.23
who have been
helped, you are hearing women
00:23:57.27\00:23:58.97
who have needed the
help and haven't found it
00:23:59.00\00:24:02.10
and when they
are listening to you,
00:24:02.14\00:24:03.94
then they are
getting help from you, right?
00:24:03.97\00:24:06.07
Yes, by speaking of...
00:24:06.11\00:24:07.48
By talking about it, you,
either been drawn to you like,
00:24:07.51\00:24:10.88
thank you finally
for opening your mouth
00:24:10.91\00:24:14.22
and talking about some thing
that I need, that they need.
00:24:14.25\00:24:18.62
It's very humbling
because sometimes it makes
00:24:18.65\00:24:21.99
you know, it's easy to
tear up but you know, women have
00:24:22.02\00:24:25.59
you know, one
woman we heard from,
00:24:25.63\00:24:28.10
she said, "Don't
stop telling your story."
00:24:28.13\00:24:31.77
You know that's what she told me
00:24:31.80\00:24:33.13
and it was like don't
ever stop telling your story
00:24:33.17\00:24:36.77
and more and more I'm
hearing women come to me
00:24:36.81\00:24:39.87
and Antionette, both of us
and they are starting to say,
00:24:39.91\00:24:42.98
"You can share my story."
00:24:43.01\00:24:44.91
You know, not
every one is in position
00:24:44.95\00:24:47.15
that I'm in where they
can say, I'm so and so,
00:24:47.18\00:24:50.25
I live in so and
so, this is my story.
00:24:50.29\00:24:52.65
You know, they have reasons.
00:24:52.69\00:24:54.02
They don't want to
be, their name out there
00:24:54.06\00:24:57.23
but they're
sharing with us their story
00:24:57.26\00:25:00.00
so that it'll make
an impact on other women
00:25:00.03\00:25:02.30
and other women
hear those stories,
00:25:02.33\00:25:04.43
they start speaking up
and so that's where I think,
00:25:04.47\00:25:07.47
as these people start feeling
this freedom, no condemnation.
00:25:07.50\00:25:13.81
That's when the Holy Spirit
00:25:13.84\00:25:15.61
is just pouring
out in these hearts.
00:25:15.64\00:25:18.18
It's a voice
crying in the wilderness.
00:25:18.21\00:25:21.72
There is a change.
That's what you are.
00:25:21.75\00:25:23.08
You are the voice
crying in the wilderness.
00:25:23.12\00:25:24.65
It's like Jenna,
do remember Jenna?
00:25:24.69\00:25:26.76
Wasn't her name Jenna?
00:25:26.79\00:25:28.22
She gave a long
note on my Facebook page
00:25:28.26\00:25:30.93
and she told me how much
00:25:30.96\00:25:32.46
she's been
helped by your ministry.
00:25:32.49\00:25:35.56
Well, praise the
Lord, praise the Lord.
00:25:35.60\00:25:37.23
And they are other people that
have been emailing me as well
00:25:37.27\00:25:39.67
that they are
just, they're so grateful
00:25:39.70\00:25:42.00
for what you are doing,
and that you are talking out,
00:25:42.04\00:25:44.01
that you are speaking out.
00:25:44.04\00:25:45.37
You know, I'm
glad Jenna communicated
00:25:45.41\00:25:46.74
with you because...
00:25:46.78\00:25:48.11
I think her name was Jenna.
00:25:48.14\00:25:49.48
Now that you mentioned
her because my husband and I,
00:25:49.51\00:25:51.95
we've been
praying for her in fact,
00:25:51.98\00:25:53.58
when she wrote us a letter
00:25:53.62\00:25:54.95
and I don't need to include
the details of the letter.
00:25:54.98\00:25:58.32
My husband was
the one who stopped me
00:25:58.35\00:26:00.62
and said, "Dianna,
let's pray right now."
00:26:00.66\00:26:03.53
You know,
there're so many of them.
00:26:03.56\00:26:05.73
I got a.
00:26:05.76\00:26:07.10
well, I bring it
up at another meeting
00:26:07.13\00:26:08.73
but in the men, it's
not just women, Steve,
00:26:08.76\00:26:12.43
the men who realized that
they should've been fathers
00:26:12.47\00:26:16.27
and heads of households.
00:26:16.30\00:26:18.07
Well, we will talk about how.
00:26:18.11\00:26:19.84
We have another program,
it's Not Just a Woman's Issue.
00:26:19.87\00:26:22.94
And we're talking about the men
00:26:22.98\00:26:24.68
and we are just
about out of time.
00:26:24.71\00:26:26.18
I want to read a text
00:26:26.21\00:26:27.55
in Ephesians,
chapter 5, verse 30,
00:26:27.58\00:26:31.32
where Paul is
talking about the church
00:26:31.35\00:26:33.12
and he says that, "We
are members of His body
00:26:33.15\00:26:36.36
and of His flesh
and of His bones."
00:26:36.39\00:26:38.89
I heard a story once
about during World War 2,
00:26:38.93\00:26:41.53
there was a village
that was destroyed by bombs
00:26:41.56\00:26:44.27
and there was a church in there
00:26:44.30\00:26:45.80
and the church was
pretty much destroyed
00:26:45.83\00:26:47.37
except for a statue of
Jesus was there still standing
00:26:47.40\00:26:50.77
but it had no hands and
somebody saw that statue
00:26:50.81\00:26:53.74
and they put a
sign over the head
00:26:53.78\00:26:57.05
and the sign said that,
00:26:57.08\00:26:58.68
"Jesus has no
hands in this world
00:26:58.71\00:27:01.55
but your hands."
00:27:01.58\00:27:04.05
And I heard that story
and it just really touched me
00:27:04.09\00:27:06.49
that the, the mission of
the church of Jesus Christ
00:27:06.52\00:27:08.72
is to be God's
hands in this world
00:27:08.76\00:27:10.76
and we got to
deal with this issue.
00:27:10.79\00:27:12.13
We got to talk about this issue
00:27:12.16\00:27:13.50
because people need
help and so we just prayed
00:27:13.53\00:27:15.96
that this will encourage you
to speak out to find resources
00:27:16.00\00:27:19.63
and to learn how to help people
00:27:19.67\00:27:21.40
who are
struggling with abortion.
00:27:21.44\00:27:23.51
Dianne Wagner and
Antionette Duck show
00:27:23.54\00:27:25.61
powerful life
changing information
00:27:25.64\00:27:27.64
in this 13 Part series,
The Abortion Controversy.
00:27:27.68\00:27:31.58
To order this six and half
hour of DVD set for $34.95.
00:27:31.61\00:27:36.02
Call 1.800.782.4253,
that's 1.800.782.4253
00:27:36.05\00:27:43.19
or you can write
to White Horse Media,
00:27:43.22\00:27:44.99
PO Box 1139,
Newport, Washington 99156
00:27:45.03\00:27:49.16
or order online at
whitehorsemedia.com.
00:27:49.20\00:27:53.23