Over a million
abortions take place every year
00:00:08.60\00:00:10.94
in the United States alone.
00:00:10.97\00:00:12.94
In China they say it's
some where around 30 million.
00:00:12.97\00:00:15.84
When you add up all
the figures world wide,
00:00:15.88\00:00:18.01
the number is truly staggering
00:00:18.05\00:00:19.81
and one of the biggest
issues facing humanity is,
00:00:19.85\00:00:23.62
is abortion taking a life
of a real human being or not?
00:00:23.65\00:00:28.79
That's the topic that
we're gonna be exploring
00:00:28.82\00:00:31.26
next in The
Abortion Controversy.
00:00:31.29\00:00:34.06
Welcome to Part 6
00:01:02.42\00:01:03.79
of the series called
The Abortion Controversy,
00:01:03.83\00:01:05.96
13 programs dealing with topic
00:01:05.99\00:01:07.90
that in many circles
it's just hush, hush.
00:01:07.93\00:01:10.43
People don't
want to talk about it.
00:01:10.47\00:01:11.80
It's like
skeleton in the closet.
00:01:11.83\00:01:14.10
But we believe that it is
time to bring that skeleton
00:01:14.14\00:01:17.21
out of the closet to
take a close look at it
00:01:17.24\00:01:19.74
and to find out
really what is going on.
00:01:19.77\00:01:22.24
My guest is Antionette Duck.
00:01:22.28\00:01:24.08
She is the
founder of Mafgia ministry
00:01:24.11\00:01:27.72
that is really going public
with a lot of information.
00:01:27.75\00:01:30.92
She is telling her story.
00:01:30.95\00:01:32.29
She has an
associate Dianne Wagner,
00:01:32.32\00:01:34.12
that is, telling her story
and so thank you for joining us
00:01:34.16\00:01:37.23
and we're just
gonna go right in.
00:01:37.26\00:01:39.16
So Antionette,
here we are again.
00:01:39.19\00:01:42.00
It's a privilege and a
blessing to be here with you
00:01:42.03\00:01:45.03
and it's very enlightening
00:01:45.07\00:01:46.84
to hear the
information that you have.
00:01:46.87\00:01:48.84
Now I have a quotation here
00:01:48.87\00:01:51.27
that I'm sure
you are familiar with
00:01:51.31\00:01:52.84
and this is from, The
Alan Guttmacher Institute
00:01:52.87\00:01:56.71
that which is a research
wing of Planned Parenthood.
00:01:56.75\00:02:00.22
According to them 43.8 million
abortions have taken place,
00:02:00.25\00:02:05.35
took place in 2008.
00:02:05.39\00:02:07.96
And according to the
world health organization,
00:02:07.99\00:02:10.39
it's somewhere around 45 million
00:02:10.43\00:02:13.53
world wide every year.
00:02:13.56\00:02:16.40
Now as I
mentioned a little bit ago,
00:02:16.43\00:02:18.07
really one of the
biggest issues is,
00:02:18.10\00:02:20.47
is are these abortions,
just removing a mass of cells,
00:02:20.50\00:02:25.81
is it just a clump of protoplasm
00:02:25.84\00:02:29.84
or are these real human
beings that are being aborted?
00:02:29.88\00:02:33.82
So let's go and let's
hear what you have to say.
00:02:33.85\00:02:37.59
Sure.
00:02:37.62\00:02:39.35
At the outside
underline this issue
00:02:39.39\00:02:42.82
I think it's something we need
to come to terms with is that
00:02:42.86\00:02:45.99
abortion either takes the
life of the innocent human being
00:02:46.03\00:02:49.50
or it doesn't.
00:02:49.53\00:02:50.87
It can be one or
it can be the other
00:02:50.90\00:02:52.27
but it cannot be both.
00:02:52.30\00:02:53.64
It can't. There's no neutral.
00:02:53.67\00:02:55.00
It's either. There
is not a neutral ground.
00:02:55.04\00:02:56.37
It's A or B,
not C. That's right.
00:02:56.40\00:02:59.37
So the only reason
then to oppose abortion,
00:02:59.41\00:03:02.28
if it does take the life
of an innocent human being.
00:03:02.31\00:03:05.65
If the unborn is not human,
00:03:05.68\00:03:07.65
there is no
reason to oppose it ever.
00:03:07.68\00:03:09.98
But if the unborn is human
00:03:10.02\00:03:12.22
then we have to
seriously re-examine
00:03:12.25\00:03:15.29
our reasons for doing it.
00:03:15.32\00:03:18.53
Today throughout the program
00:03:18.56\00:03:19.89
I'll be referring to
various organizations
00:03:19.93\00:03:21.76
who just have a
tremendous amount of experience
00:03:21.80\00:03:23.97
in this issue,
00:03:24.00\00:03:25.33
one that I, myself have
worked with in the past,
00:03:25.37\00:03:28.80
the name of the organization
is called Justice For All.
00:03:28.84\00:03:31.17
Do they have a website? They do.
00:03:33.24\00:03:34.91
It's www.jfaweb.org.
00:03:34.94\00:03:38.35
Okay, and you
are pretty familiar
00:03:38.38\00:03:39.71
with this organization.
00:03:39.75\00:03:41.08
Yes, yes, yes.
00:03:41.12\00:03:42.45
I was able to work
with them back in 2005.
00:03:42.48\00:03:43.82
Their approach is very different
00:03:43.85\00:03:45.35
from the Mafgia's
00:03:45.39\00:03:47.72
because they only in
that, they do is graphic images
00:03:47.76\00:03:51.83
and seeking to reach people.
00:03:51.86\00:03:54.86
Very briefly, their
reason for doing that,
00:03:54.90\00:03:56.97
for using the graphic images
00:03:57.00\00:03:58.33
is they rely on
the underline principle
00:03:58.37\00:04:02.74
of the story found or
the story of Emmett Till.
00:04:02.77\00:04:06.78
In that story there was
an African American boy.
00:04:06.81\00:04:09.54
He was, it was back prior
to the Civil Rights movement.
00:04:09.58\00:04:12.91
He was from Chicago and he
had family down in Mississippi.
00:04:12.95\00:04:18.32
He really wanted to go
down and visit his cousins,
00:04:18.35\00:04:20.46
his mother before he left,
00:04:20.49\00:04:21.82
she really tried
to emphasize to him,
00:04:21.86\00:04:23.79
"You need to understand
Black doesn't touch White,
00:04:23.83\00:04:27.40
you have to show
the utmost difference
00:04:27.43\00:04:29.00
and respect to Caucasian people,
00:04:29.03\00:04:31.13
you don't touch them,
00:04:31.17\00:04:32.50
you don't look them in the eye."
00:04:32.53\00:04:33.87
And he said, "I know mom,
I'm ready to go, let me go."
00:04:33.90\00:04:36.30
So she lets him go
down, he visits his cousins.
00:04:36.34\00:04:39.54
While he was down
there, it is believed that
00:04:39.57\00:04:43.78
he started
bragging to his cousins
00:04:43.81\00:04:45.31
and saying, you know what?
00:04:45.35\00:04:46.68
I don't just have,
00:04:46.72\00:04:48.48
I don't just go
to school with girls,
00:04:48.52\00:04:50.22
I also have two
white girlfriends."
00:04:50.25\00:04:52.22
And his cousins said
well, you think you know,
00:04:52.25\00:04:56.49
"If you're so
wonderful with the white girls,
00:04:56.52\00:04:58.06
why don't you go into that store
00:04:58.09\00:04:59.43
and say hello to
the sales clerk."
00:04:59.46\00:05:01.36
She was a White.
Who was a white woman.
00:05:01.40\00:05:03.23
So they were just
goading him on, just daring him.
00:05:03.26\00:05:05.50
Yes, but not understanding
maybe how dangerous
00:05:05.53\00:05:08.34
the situation that was.
00:05:08.37\00:05:09.70
A lot different from
Las Angeles where I grew up.
00:05:09.74\00:05:11.07
Yes, well, he goes, he ends
up buying a pack of bubble gum
00:05:11.11\00:05:15.48
as he's leaving the store,
00:05:15.51\00:05:17.38
he supposedly turned
around to the women and said,
00:05:17.41\00:05:19.51
"Bye baby" and
runs off the porch.
00:05:19.55\00:05:21.95
So they were two
African American men
00:05:21.98\00:05:23.95
who were sitting on the porch,
00:05:23.99\00:05:25.45
and they said, "Boy,
you better get out of here
00:05:25.49\00:05:27.02
because they
are gonna kill you."
00:05:27.06\00:05:28.56
And at 2 a.m.
00:05:28.59\00:05:29.92
the next morning, Emmett Till
was extracted from gun point,
00:05:29.96\00:05:33.53
by gun point from
his uncle's house.
00:05:33.56\00:05:35.86
And the next
time any one saw him,
00:05:35.90\00:05:38.40
his face literally
did not look human.
00:05:38.43\00:05:40.84
What they did to him,
00:05:40.87\00:05:42.20
so completely
marred and disfigured him
00:05:42.24\00:05:44.31
that he just didn't
look human any longer.
00:05:44.34\00:05:46.71
I'm assuming he
was dead at that point.
00:05:46.74\00:05:48.34
Oh, yes, totally.
00:05:48.38\00:05:50.75
His mother, they, the corners
put his body in the casket,
00:05:50.78\00:05:54.78
sealed it up,
shifted back to Chicago
00:05:54.82\00:05:56.75
and his mother decided,
00:05:56.79\00:06:00.39
"I'm going to have an
open cascade funeral."
00:06:00.42\00:06:02.52
And when that happened
00:06:02.56\00:06:05.09
people said, "Ms.
Till, don't you understand
00:06:05.13\00:06:07.00
how disturbing
this will be to people.
00:06:07.03\00:06:09.13
His face has
been so disfigured."
00:06:09.16\00:06:11.90
And she said, "I want
the whole world to see
00:06:11.93\00:06:14.27
what they did to my boy."
00:06:14.30\00:06:17.11
"Jet Magazine" ended up,
being present at the funeral,
00:06:17.14\00:06:20.54
they took a photo and
published it in their magazine
00:06:20.58\00:06:23.81
and later when Rosa parks
00:06:23.85\00:06:25.38
refused to go to
the back of the bus,
00:06:25.41\00:06:27.45
she cited Emmet Till's
photo as part of her motivation
00:06:27.48\00:06:32.62
and sociologists say
that that was so pivotal.
00:06:32.65\00:06:37.33
People are being able to see.
00:06:37.36\00:06:39.49
He, what I really appreciate
about the training at JFA,
00:06:39.53\00:06:43.90
they ask, was
Emmett Till the first child
00:06:43.93\00:06:46.07
who was ever killed
or murdered in the South?
00:06:46.10\00:06:48.67
No.
00:06:48.70\00:06:50.04
Was he last child who was
ever murdered in the South?
00:06:50.07\00:06:52.44
Very likely not and yet
what was the difference?
00:06:52.47\00:06:55.21
That people could see it.
00:06:55.24\00:06:56.68
It now had a face.
00:06:56.71\00:06:58.05
It like the classic statement,
00:06:58.08\00:06:59.61
"A picture is
worth a thousand words."
00:06:59.65\00:07:01.05
Absolutely.
00:07:01.08\00:07:02.42
I wanted to, I think I've
shared this with you before,
00:07:02.45\00:07:04.75
when you talk
about the pictures,
00:07:04.79\00:07:06.12
I just want to
share something that
00:07:06.15\00:07:07.49
when I first learned about
you and your associate, Dianne,
00:07:07.52\00:07:10.79
I mentioned this before,
I was in a hotel in Oregon,
00:07:10.83\00:07:13.06
I heard your
testimony on my phone
00:07:13.09\00:07:16.20
and I was so just struck by it
00:07:16.23\00:07:19.43
that I decided we
needed to bring you here.
00:07:19.47\00:07:21.64
We needed to go forward
and do a series like this
00:07:21.67\00:07:23.74
and anyway, that I
believe it was a Saturday night.
00:07:23.77\00:07:25.64
That night I decided to do
some more research on abortion
00:07:25.67\00:07:28.54
and I went on to
YouTube and I found
00:07:28.58\00:07:31.51
a video that was very graphic
00:07:31.55\00:07:35.42
and when I was done
watching that program,
00:07:35.45\00:07:40.39
I literally, I was
crying, I got on top of my bed,
00:07:40.42\00:07:44.23
I knelt down and I prayed
00:07:44.26\00:07:45.83
and I prayed
some thing like this.
00:07:45.86\00:07:47.83
I just said, "God," I said,
00:07:47.86\00:07:49.43
I don't even want to be
part of the human race anymore.
00:07:49.46\00:07:53.13
I am so just so shocked
00:07:53.17\00:07:56.64
that this can
actually be happening,"
00:07:56.67\00:07:58.24
and I was just like, "get me
off of this planet right now."
00:07:58.27\00:08:02.08
I was so ashamed.
00:08:02.11\00:08:03.45
I was so embarrassed
00:08:03.48\00:08:04.81
even though I
wasn't involved in it.
00:08:04.85\00:08:06.18
I was just horrified
00:08:06.21\00:08:07.55
and I'm sure
you'll probably agree that
00:08:07.58\00:08:09.35
we shouldn't be putting these
images in front of everybody
00:08:09.38\00:08:13.62
all the time.
00:08:13.66\00:08:14.99
But there is a place
for the reality to hit us
00:08:15.02\00:08:19.53
of what's really going on.
00:08:19.56\00:08:20.90
Yes, and that's what I really
appreciate about their approach
00:08:20.93\00:08:23.63
that there is a place and it's
something that does bring back
00:08:23.67\00:08:28.57
to the forefront
of our understanding
00:08:28.60\00:08:31.21
what is really going on.
00:08:31.24\00:08:32.57
Are they
Christians, non-Christians,
00:08:32.61\00:08:33.94
a mixture of both or...
00:08:33.98\00:08:35.31
They are, yes, they
are Christian organization,
00:08:35.34\00:08:37.71
multi-denominational.
00:08:37.75\00:08:40.75
And even though the
Mafgia's approach is different
00:08:40.78\00:08:44.02
we've really focused
on healing, the sanctity,
00:08:44.05\00:08:47.99
the intrinsic
value of the human being
00:08:48.02\00:08:50.16
and healing for
people who are post aborted.
00:08:50.19\00:08:51.73
I mean, we don't
choose to use graphic images
00:08:51.76\00:08:55.06
but there's certainly is a place
00:08:55.10\00:08:56.93
and I have truly
appreciated the training
00:08:56.97\00:08:59.80
and the, just wisdom and
understanding that I have
00:08:59.83\00:09:02.54
received in working with them
00:09:02.57\00:09:03.91
and so we'll be
using some of that
00:09:03.94\00:09:05.84
as we go through out
the course of our program.
00:09:05.87\00:09:07.21
Okay, so tell me a
little more about them.
00:09:07.24\00:09:08.58
You told me that you've
been to some of their meetings.
00:09:08.61\00:09:10.75
What are they doing?
00:09:10.78\00:09:12.11
How are they
trying to reach out?
00:09:12.15\00:09:13.48
They primarily work
on college campuses,
00:09:13.52\00:09:16.38
taking different
images, asking questions
00:09:16.42\00:09:20.09
to really trying to get,
00:09:20.12\00:09:21.46
they focus on the
18-24 year demographic
00:09:21.49\00:09:24.26
and they're really attempting
00:09:24.29\00:09:25.63
to get the conversation started,
00:09:25.66\00:09:27.30
particularly at that level.
00:09:27.33\00:09:29.36
The majority of
abortions take place
00:09:29.40\00:09:31.63
over a million in the
United States every year.
00:09:31.67\00:09:33.37
During that age group?
00:09:33.40\00:09:34.74
They take place
between 18 and 24 years old,
00:09:34.77\00:09:36.44
which makes sense.
00:09:36.47\00:09:37.81
You have a lot of
single people, college age.
00:09:37.84\00:09:40.11
They are making a
whole lot of choices
00:09:40.14\00:09:41.54
that perhaps you didn't have
the opportunity to make before
00:09:41.58\00:09:44.15
and they are really
focused on reaching the group
00:09:44.18\00:09:48.65
that truly is um,
experiencing this.
00:09:48.68\00:09:51.35
Having the most
aborted. Yes, the most.
00:09:51.39\00:09:53.56
Okay, on these college campuses,
00:09:53.59\00:09:55.02
when they share
pictures and information,
00:09:55.06\00:09:57.99
what kind of
response do they get?
00:09:58.03\00:09:59.43
The response is tremendous.
00:09:59.46\00:10:00.80
You have a really,
really sort of runs the--
00:10:00.83\00:10:03.13
Some people are very angry,
00:10:03.16\00:10:04.57
some people quite
don't know what to think
00:10:04.60\00:10:06.47
but with their approach
because they are operating
00:10:06.50\00:10:08.70
normally in a
secular environment,
00:10:08.74\00:10:11.11
they are not using scripture
necessarily to make the case.
00:10:11.14\00:10:14.68
They are using reasoning,
they are using philosophy
00:10:14.71\00:10:17.95
and hoping for those avenues
00:10:17.98\00:10:19.71
to open where they
will be able to share
00:10:19.75\00:10:22.12
about the Lord and the gospel
00:10:22.15\00:10:24.32
and they have had many
opportunities to do that
00:10:24.35\00:10:26.52
to say, that's why
ultimately we are valuable
00:10:26.55\00:10:28.49
because we are made
in the image of the Lord.
00:10:28.52\00:10:31.43
Their approach
has been phenomenal.
00:10:31.46\00:10:33.33
I've watched mind after,
mind after mind be changed
00:10:33.36\00:10:36.60
as people were
presented with simple truth
00:10:36.63\00:10:40.10
about the unborn being alive,
about the unborn being human,
00:10:40.14\00:10:44.14
about the way that
the unborn develops
00:10:44.17\00:10:45.84
and watched just people just
fully consider their position
00:10:45.87\00:10:50.71
and so many people have said...
00:10:50.75\00:10:54.15
They switched. They have.
00:10:54.18\00:10:55.52
They changed their
minds. They really have.
00:10:55.55\00:10:56.89
There is some powerful
YouTube videos out there.
00:10:56.92\00:10:58.79
they just, they show
you graphically about
00:10:58.82\00:11:01.06
you know, they
show the little sperms
00:11:01.09\00:11:02.56
and then the egg and
then they come together
00:11:02.59\00:11:04.63
and there's a new
cell and it just walks you
00:11:04.66\00:11:07.13
right through the miracle
of life and it's amazing.
00:11:07.16\00:11:11.30
Well, what has been so
critical about their approach
00:11:11.33\00:11:14.20
is they base it on the idea,
when Jesus was in the temple,
00:11:14.24\00:11:19.34
He listened and
He asked questions
00:11:19.37\00:11:21.31
and that's really
how they walk through
00:11:21.34\00:11:22.68
every conversation.
00:11:22.71\00:11:24.05
They ask questions
and they are listening
00:11:24.08\00:11:25.41
and they are
listening really for
00:11:25.45\00:11:26.78
what the other person
is really trying to say.
00:11:26.82\00:11:29.05
Because if someone is
angry and talking about this,
00:11:29.08\00:11:32.02
where is that anger coming
from, why is someone angry.
00:11:32.05\00:11:34.29
If someone is confused,
what are they confused about.
00:11:34.32\00:11:36.56
They really do want to affect,
00:11:36.59\00:11:38.66
it's not just a
matter of being right
00:11:38.69\00:11:40.46
or saying I brought
someone over to my side
00:11:40.50\00:11:42.26
but genuinely reaching the deep,
00:11:42.30\00:11:44.53
yeah, the core to
transform thinking.
00:11:44.57\00:11:47.44
Yeah, just like "the
light goes on in their eyes."
00:11:47.47\00:11:49.27
Absolutely.
00:11:49.30\00:11:50.67
In the last segment we talked
about the Biblical evidence.
00:11:50.71\00:11:53.81
Now let's zero in on,
00:11:53.84\00:11:55.71
you mentioned the
scientific evidence.
00:11:55.74\00:11:57.38
The kind of information
00:11:57.41\00:11:58.75
that they present to
the college students.
00:11:58.78\00:12:00.12
Yes. What is that evidence?
00:12:00.15\00:12:01.48
Yes, well, um, as Greg Coco
with a different organization
00:12:01.52\00:12:05.49
--and he said
00:12:05.52\00:12:06.86
before we can
kill any living thing,
00:12:06.89\00:12:08.72
we have to first
determine what it is.
00:12:08.76\00:12:11.03
He gives a wonderful example
00:12:11.06\00:12:13.29
of say you are washing
dishes at your kitchen sink
00:12:13.33\00:12:16.50
and your son or
daughter comes up behind you
00:12:16.53\00:12:19.43
so your back is to
them and you just hear,
00:12:19.47\00:12:21.70
"Hey dad can I kill this?"
00:12:21.74\00:12:23.14
What's the first question
00:12:23.17\00:12:24.51
that's gonna come
out of your mouth?
00:12:24.54\00:12:25.87
Kill what?
00:12:25.91\00:12:27.24
Exactly, what are
you trying to kill?
00:12:27.28\00:12:28.61
What is it?
00:12:28.64\00:12:29.98
Is it a stink bag or we have
00:12:30.01\00:12:31.35
a number of
spiders in our house,
00:12:31.38\00:12:32.71
we live in the
country so right, what is it?
00:12:32.75\00:12:34.08
Yeah, what is it?
00:12:34.12\00:12:35.45
It's not our cat or our dog
that they are talking about.
00:12:35.48\00:12:36.82
Right, because if it's a bug,
00:12:36.85\00:12:38.19
you're going to
have one question,
00:12:38.22\00:12:39.55
if it's the cat, you're
going to have one response.
00:12:39.59\00:12:42.29
Yeah, my daughter wants
to take the bugs outside.
00:12:42.32\00:12:44.03
She doesn't even want
to kill them in the house.
00:12:44.06\00:12:45.73
She's just such a
compassionate little girl.
00:12:45.76\00:12:47.76
Right, but the
cat you would say,
00:12:47.80\00:12:49.43
"Wait a minute honey,
we can't kill the cat."
00:12:49.46\00:12:51.23
If your brother had his
00:12:51.27\00:12:52.73
or if your son
had his little sister,
00:12:52.77\00:12:54.40
you would stage an
intervention of course
00:12:54.44\00:12:56.07
we can't get rid
of your little sister
00:12:56.10\00:12:57.67
and so it's very critical that
we first determine what it is
00:12:57.71\00:13:02.24
that we're trying
to take the life of
00:13:02.28\00:13:04.71
before we
actually take its life.
00:13:04.75\00:13:07.92
The definition of
life scientifically
00:13:07.95\00:13:12.25
involves three characteristics,
00:13:12.29\00:13:14.42
irritability, metabolism
and cellular reproduction.
00:13:14.46\00:13:17.79
Irritability is
reaction to stimuli,
00:13:17.83\00:13:19.93
reaction to stimuli,
00:13:19.96\00:13:21.50
metabolism is
converting food to energy
00:13:21.53\00:13:24.63
and cellular
reproduction is growth.
00:13:24.67\00:13:28.17
The unborn exhibits
all three characteristics.
00:13:28.20\00:13:31.94
Steve Wagner,
00:13:31.97\00:13:33.31
who is the director
of Justice For All now,
00:13:33.34\00:13:37.28
has created this wonderful tool
00:13:37.31\00:13:40.72
which is in essence a 10 seconds
00:13:40.75\00:13:43.18
human defense for the
humanity of the unborn.
00:13:43.22\00:13:46.55
I think it's very helpful
00:13:46.59\00:13:47.92
and I think this is
sort of my version of it.
00:13:47.96\00:13:49.59
If the unborn is
growing, it must be alive.
00:13:49.62\00:13:53.09
If the unborn has human parents,
00:13:53.13\00:13:55.46
it must be human
00:13:55.50\00:13:56.93
and living humans or
human beings like you and me
00:13:56.97\00:14:01.40
are valuable, aren't they?
00:14:01.44\00:14:03.57
And they make
other human beings.
00:14:03.61\00:14:05.34
And they make other human beings
00:14:05.37\00:14:06.71
because the law of biogenesis
tells us that like begets like.
00:14:06.74\00:14:11.25
So dogs give birth to
dogs, cats give birth to cats,
00:14:11.28\00:14:15.55
humans give birth to humans.
00:14:15.58\00:14:17.29
Sound pretty
simple. It is simple.
00:14:17.32\00:14:18.95
It's really simple, isn't it?
00:14:18.99\00:14:20.32
It is, faith like a
child, it's that simple.
00:14:20.36\00:14:22.39
The Lord has laid
it out very simply
00:14:22.42\00:14:24.39
and it's really amazing
00:14:24.43\00:14:25.99
when you get into
dialogue with people
00:14:26.03\00:14:28.33
and if someone makes the claim,
00:14:28.36\00:14:31.30
the unborn isn't
really human, but what is it?
00:14:31.33\00:14:34.14
Yeah, then what is it? Right.
00:14:34.17\00:14:35.50
Because we've come from humans.
00:14:35.54\00:14:37.37
Scientifically we know.
00:14:37.41\00:14:38.87
We can't reproduce some thing
that isn't after our own kind.
00:14:38.91\00:14:42.68
We're going to
reproduce after our own kind
00:14:42.71\00:14:44.61
and so from the very
beginning, the unborn is alive.
00:14:44.65\00:14:48.62
Scientifically it meets
00:14:48.65\00:14:50.82
those characteristics
of things that are alive
00:14:50.85\00:14:53.22
and it is a human being
that is alive in the womb.
00:14:53.25\00:14:56.42
Isn't it?
00:14:56.46\00:14:57.79
I've read recently
in illustration like
00:14:57.83\00:14:59.19
think of seeds.
00:14:59.23\00:15:00.56
If you think of a wheat seed,
00:15:00.60\00:15:01.93
it's a wheat seed,
it's in the ground,
00:15:01.96\00:15:03.30
then it starts to grow.
00:15:03.33\00:15:04.67
It's not up
above the ground yet.
00:15:04.70\00:15:06.03
It's not you
know, analogous to baby
00:15:06.07\00:15:08.34
coming out of the body
00:15:08.37\00:15:09.70
but it's still under
the ground but it's growing
00:15:09.74\00:15:11.34
and at what ever
stage of development,
00:15:11.37\00:15:13.88
it's still a little wheat plant.
00:15:13.91\00:15:16.54
It's a wheat plant and
then once it breaks ground
00:15:16.58\00:15:18.41
and then it comes up
00:15:18.45\00:15:19.78
and you got the
full eventually the full
00:15:19.81\00:15:22.48
you know, group of wheat seeds
00:15:22.52\00:15:24.55
but it's a wheat
plant all the way through.
00:15:24.59\00:15:27.46
Yes.
00:15:27.49\00:15:28.82
To me, it's
simple, it makes sense.
00:15:28.86\00:15:30.39
Yes. I get it.
00:15:30.43\00:15:32.13
Yes, well, and
so what we know then
00:15:32.16\00:15:35.16
is we know the unborn is human,
we know the unborn is alive
00:15:35.20\00:15:39.23
and from conception,
from the very beginning
00:15:39.27\00:15:41.97
you have a unique genetically
distinct human organism
00:15:42.00\00:15:45.71
that is coming to existence.
00:15:45.74\00:15:47.08
That is separate
from, I mean, she is...
00:15:47.11\00:15:48.44
Separate from the mother.
00:15:48.48\00:15:49.81
It's dependent upon the
mother but it is separate.
00:15:49.84\00:15:51.81
It's not the mother.
00:15:51.85\00:15:53.18
Yes, there's
this Scott Klusendorf,
00:15:53.21\00:15:55.02
for the Life Training Institute
00:15:55.05\00:15:56.38
uses the example
of parts versus holes.
00:15:56.42\00:16:00.86
You have a human
sperm and a human ovum egg
00:16:00.89\00:16:04.19
that come
together and they unite.
00:16:04.23\00:16:06.13
But when they fertilize,
when they come together
00:16:06.16\00:16:08.36
they cease to exist separately
00:16:08.40\00:16:11.00
and they form a new unique
00:16:11.03\00:16:13.23
genetically
distinct human organism.
00:16:13.27\00:16:14.94
There is no more human sperm,
there is no more human egg.
00:16:14.97\00:16:17.84
It's simply a zygote,
which incidentally means
00:16:17.87\00:16:21.11
to come together.
00:16:21.14\00:16:22.48
It is the coming together
00:16:22.51\00:16:25.41
and that is what the unborn
is from the very beginning.
00:16:25.45\00:16:29.35
You, from the
moment of conception,
00:16:29.38\00:16:32.09
every bit of genetic information
00:16:32.12\00:16:35.42
that you have sitting
here now, you had then.
00:16:35.46\00:16:40.56
In essence you
possessed everything genetically
00:16:40.60\00:16:43.77
way back then.
00:16:43.80\00:16:45.13
You simply were at a
different stage of development.
00:16:45.17\00:16:48.30
So you are
saying, but it was still,
00:16:48.34\00:16:50.31
that it was me back then
in my mother Sandy Wohlberg,
00:16:50.34\00:16:53.48
that's my mom's name.
00:16:53.51\00:16:54.84
She's still alive.
00:16:54.88\00:16:56.21
She lives in Palm
Springs, California.
00:16:56.24\00:16:57.91
Then it was still me. Yes.
00:16:57.95\00:16:59.41
But you know, I've
been growing for quite a bit
00:16:59.45\00:17:01.58
and then I've got grey
hair and things are changing.
00:17:01.62\00:17:05.25
You'll find that out
later but you get the point,
00:17:05.29\00:17:08.29
I mean, you know the point.
00:17:08.32\00:17:09.66
The point is
that when they first,
00:17:09.69\00:17:11.36
when the sperm and
the egg came together,
00:17:11.39\00:17:13.76
it was me even
though I was undeveloped.
00:17:13.80\00:17:16.73
Yes, yes, yes and
nothing is added to you
00:17:16.77\00:17:20.50
to make you any more human.
00:17:20.54\00:17:22.30
There's this uh, if
you think of Richard Stith,
00:17:22.34\00:17:28.14
who was a
philosopher who came up
00:17:28.18\00:17:29.74
with this example of
the Polaroid picture.
00:17:29.78\00:17:34.22
Do you remember
Polaroid pictures,
00:17:34.25\00:17:37.05
you take them,
and snap the picture
00:17:37.09\00:17:39.15
and the photo pops out?
00:17:39.19\00:17:40.52
Yes, I remember that.
Now we just use the phones.
00:17:40.56\00:17:42.79
Right, yes, yes, but
actually, have been--
00:17:42.82\00:17:44.93
I think they've
become popular again.
00:17:44.96\00:17:47.13
The idea of Polaroid picture
00:17:47.16\00:17:48.50
and they were bigger
back in the 80s maybe.
00:17:48.53\00:17:51.17
Um, when you take
a Polaroid picture,
00:17:51.20\00:17:53.30
you take it and it pops
out but when you look at it,
00:17:53.34\00:17:56.57
it's pretty grey and smudgy.
00:17:56.60\00:17:58.54
You don't actually see
the photo that you just took.
00:17:58.57\00:18:00.88
You have to give
it time to develop.
00:18:00.91\00:18:03.04
But the fact that
you can't see everything
00:18:03.08\00:18:05.58
that is there doesn't
mean that photo isn't there.
00:18:05.61\00:18:08.58
Nothing is added to the picture
00:18:08.62\00:18:11.09
to make it anymore of a picture.
00:18:11.12\00:18:13.15
It simply needs
time so that your eyes
00:18:13.19\00:18:15.22
and my eyes can actually see it.
00:18:15.26\00:18:17.06
And the development,
the development process.
00:18:17.09\00:18:18.99
Now didn't you
mention you had some,
00:18:19.03\00:18:20.66
just some quick
facts about conception
00:18:20.70\00:18:23.60
and then the first week
00:18:23.63\00:18:24.97
and then at what point
the heart starts beating
00:18:25.00\00:18:26.53
and some of those
little intricate details
00:18:26.57\00:18:28.74
which are significant?
00:18:28.77\00:18:30.47
Yes, yes.
00:18:30.51\00:18:33.07
When the unborn, the
child in utero is three weeks,
00:18:33.11\00:18:37.58
you have a heart beat
and at that point the child
00:18:37.61\00:18:40.98
is the size of a grain of rice.
00:18:41.02\00:18:44.45
Wow, at six weeks,
the child has brain waves,
00:18:44.49\00:18:49.09
at seven weeks,
they are eye lids,
00:18:49.12\00:18:52.46
toes are forming,
the nose is distinct.
00:18:52.49\00:18:55.13
The baby is
kicking and swimming.
00:18:55.16\00:18:57.30
At eight weeks,
every organ is in place
00:18:57.33\00:19:00.57
and bones begin
to replace cartilage.
00:19:00.60\00:19:04.47
Finger prints begin to form
00:19:04.51\00:19:06.01
and at eight weeks
the child begins to hear.
00:19:06.04\00:19:09.58
At ten weeks,
teeth begin to form,
00:19:09.61\00:19:11.31
finger nails develop,
00:19:11.35\00:19:12.68
the child can turn
his head and frown.
00:19:12.71\00:19:15.05
The baby can hiccup. Wow.
00:19:15.08\00:19:17.19
Yes, at weeks 10 and
11, the baby can breathe
00:19:17.22\00:19:20.62
amniotic fluid and can urinate.
00:19:20.66\00:19:23.56
At week 11, the baby can
grasp objects in its hand.
00:19:23.59\00:19:27.53
The baby has skeletal structure.
00:19:27.56\00:19:29.23
So it hands little hands by
that time to grab something.
00:19:29.26\00:19:32.27
Well, long before that
but it can actually grab
00:19:32.30\00:19:34.30
onto things at week 11.
00:19:34.34\00:19:37.44
It has skeletal structure
and nerves in circulation.
00:19:37.47\00:19:41.14
At week 12, so
it's about three months,
00:19:41.18\00:19:44.31
all the parts, the
baby has all the parts
00:19:44.35\00:19:46.18
that are
necessary to experience pain
00:19:46.21\00:19:48.38
including nerves, spinal cord
00:19:48.42\00:19:50.42
and the vocal
cords are complete.
00:19:50.45\00:19:53.46
The baby can suck its thumb.
00:19:53.49\00:19:54.82
Wow, so when John the
Baptist was in Elizabeth
00:19:54.86\00:19:58.09
and Elizabeth met
Mary as the Bible says
00:19:58.13\00:20:01.40
in book of Luke that
the babe leaped in her womb
00:20:01.43\00:20:05.73
and I keep thinking
of that last little part
00:20:05.77\00:20:07.74
that says for joy.
00:20:07.77\00:20:09.34
So there's joy,
there's emotion going on
00:20:09.37\00:20:12.04
and he you know that
child, it was really,
00:20:12.07\00:20:13.81
it was John in
there, just little John.
00:20:13.84\00:20:16.31
Yes, yes, yeah.
00:20:16.34\00:20:18.81
At fourteen
weeks, the heart pumps
00:20:18.85\00:20:20.78
several cords of blood
through the body a day.
00:20:20.82\00:20:22.88
At 15 weeks, the
baby has adult taste buds,
00:20:22.92\00:20:27.19
bone marrow at,
into the 16th week,
00:20:27.22\00:20:29.92
month four, bone
marrows beginning to form,
00:20:29.96\00:20:31.96
the heart is pumping
25 cords of blood a day.
00:20:31.99\00:20:34.60
At week 17, the baby
can dream, REM sleep.
00:20:34.63\00:20:37.87
At week 19 babies
can routinely be saved
00:20:37.90\00:20:41.04
from 21 to 22 weeks
after fertilization.
00:20:41.07\00:20:44.84
At week 20,
00:20:44.87\00:20:47.94
babies can recognize
their mothers' voices.
00:20:47.98\00:20:52.85
In the fifth and sixth month,
00:20:52.88\00:20:54.22
the baby will practice breathing
00:20:54.25\00:20:55.98
by inhaling amniotic
fluid into its lungs.
00:20:56.02\00:20:59.52
It can grasp the umbilical cord,
00:20:59.55\00:21:01.96
mothers can normally feel
all the kicking and movements.
00:21:01.99\00:21:05.49
In month seven and eight,
00:21:05.53\00:21:06.86
the baby can open
and close its eyes.
00:21:06.90\00:21:08.56
It's using all four
senses, not all four,
00:21:08.60\00:21:10.93
it's using four of its senses.
00:21:10.97\00:21:14.30
He knows the difference
between waking and sleeping.
00:21:14.34\00:21:16.27
He can relate to
the moods of his mother.
00:21:16.30\00:21:18.61
It's absolutely phenomenal,
the stages of development.
00:21:18.64\00:21:21.74
How developed the
child is so early on.
00:21:21.78\00:21:23.55
It reminds me of the verse
we read previously in Psalm 139
00:21:23.58\00:21:27.02
where David says, "You weld me
together in my mother's womb."
00:21:27.05\00:21:30.25
I can't help but
tell you a quick story.
00:21:30.29\00:21:32.42
When Seth was born, he
came flying out of my wife.
00:21:32.45\00:21:35.36
I was there in
the operating room.
00:21:35.39\00:21:36.73
She had a C section 'cause
they were some complications
00:21:36.76\00:21:38.23
so the doctor pushed
down, the baby came flying out.
00:21:38.26\00:21:41.43
Seth was just screaming
and yelling, hollering,
00:21:41.46\00:21:44.33
did I say that right?
00:21:44.37\00:21:45.70
Yelling like crazy and they laid
00:21:45.73\00:21:47.17
this bloody little body
right next to me on a table
00:21:47.20\00:21:50.37
and I looked at him
and he was screaming
00:21:50.41\00:21:51.74
and I said, Seth,
Seth, it's your daddy.
00:21:51.77\00:21:55.71
And as soon as I said that,
he stopped crying right away.
00:21:55.74\00:21:58.51
And he put his two
little fingers on his lips
00:21:58.55\00:22:00.98
and he went like this.
00:22:01.02\00:22:04.55
And he, 'cause he knew my voice
00:22:04.59\00:22:06.79
and he was looking for daddy.
00:22:06.82\00:22:08.19
And the reason why
he knew my voice was
00:22:08.22\00:22:09.56
because I've been talking to him
00:22:09.59\00:22:11.36
before he came
out for a long time
00:22:11.39\00:22:15.16
and when he finally
came out, it was him
00:22:15.20\00:22:17.63
because he knew my voice
and it was him all the way.
00:22:17.67\00:22:21.00
And I'll never forget that.
00:22:21.04\00:22:22.37
I got a little
picture of it and...
00:22:22.40\00:22:23.74
Wow, that's
powerful. That really is.
00:22:23.77\00:22:25.77
It really changed my
life, changed my life
00:22:25.81\00:22:28.28
and I just fell
in love with that kid
00:22:28.31\00:22:29.64
and I still love him today.
00:22:29.68\00:22:31.01
Yeah, well, and in talking about
00:22:31.05\00:22:32.81
development in
addition to what Stith,
00:22:32.85\00:22:37.32
this idea of Polaroid picture,
00:22:37.35\00:22:41.32
it's important
to understand that
00:22:41.36\00:22:42.69
we are not constructed
that parts aren't added to us
00:22:42.72\00:22:45.49
to make us any more human
00:22:45.53\00:22:47.10
and that it's not
like you are going down
00:22:47.13\00:22:50.73
assembling on like with the car
where you add tires and wheels
00:22:50.77\00:22:56.30
and eventually
have a human being.
00:22:56.34\00:22:57.91
We literally develop
from within ourselves.
00:22:57.94\00:22:59.77
Great illustration. Right, yeah.
00:22:59.81\00:23:01.21
But not mine, Richard
Stiths' but fantastic.
00:23:01.24\00:23:04.45
Now something that's
really important to understand
00:23:04.48\00:23:06.11
'cause I know we're
running out of time,
00:23:06.15\00:23:08.08
is someone might say, okay,
I understand that the unborn,
00:23:08.12\00:23:12.25
okay I'll give you
that the unborn is human
00:23:12.29\00:23:14.22
but the unborn
isn't really a person.
00:23:14.26\00:23:16.39
And
Philosopher, Stephen Schwartz
00:23:16.42\00:23:19.29
came up with four
really critical distinctions
00:23:19.33\00:23:21.30
that separate or
that just distinguish us
00:23:21.33\00:23:23.97
from the unborn, their
size, level of development,
00:23:24.00\00:23:28.40
environment and
degree of dependency,
00:23:28.44\00:23:30.21
and you can think
of the acronyms SLEAD
00:23:30.24\00:23:31.71
to remember them.
00:23:31.74\00:23:34.38
In essence people will say
the unborn size is different,
00:23:34.41\00:23:37.28
the level of
development is different.
00:23:37.31\00:23:38.65
They are more
dependent on the mother,
00:23:38.68\00:23:40.98
the environment is different
00:23:41.02\00:23:42.95
and so they are
not really human.
00:23:42.98\00:23:45.29
And if we think about that,
00:23:45.32\00:23:46.65
it's true that
the unborn is smaller,
00:23:46.69\00:23:48.49
but can't we think
of other human beings
00:23:48.52\00:23:51.56
out here in the world
like a new born or a toddler
00:23:51.59\00:23:54.03
who's smaller than a
five-year old or a teenager
00:23:54.06\00:23:56.23
but does that make the new born
00:23:56.26\00:23:58.37
less valuable simply
because it's smaller.
00:23:58.40\00:24:00.60
You think of
level of development,
00:24:00.64\00:24:02.17
it's true that the
unborn is less develop
00:24:02.20\00:24:04.61
but it's at the
right stage of development
00:24:04.64\00:24:06.68
for where it's supposed to
be inside the mother's womb
00:24:06.71\00:24:09.54
and you think about us again,
00:24:09.58\00:24:12.15
a toddler or
five-year old is less developed
00:24:12.18\00:24:14.48
so then you are
odd but does that mean
00:24:14.52\00:24:16.82
that the toddler
is less valuable.
00:24:16.85\00:24:19.32
Or less human.
00:24:19.35\00:24:20.69
Simply because
they are less developed,
00:24:20.72\00:24:22.82
the level of
development is different.
00:24:22.86\00:24:25.19
In the environment, you
made an illustration earlier
00:24:25.23\00:24:28.10
where you move
from one room to another
00:24:28.13\00:24:30.50
but you did not lose or gain
value based on that movement.
00:24:30.53\00:24:35.10
Just because the unborn
goes from inside the womb
00:24:35.14\00:24:37.31
to outside of the womb,
00:24:37.34\00:24:38.87
does that change
in the environment
00:24:38.91\00:24:40.71
really dictate the
value of that child
00:24:40.74\00:24:44.28
and for the last
degree of dependency,
00:24:44.31\00:24:46.31
it's true that the
unborn is very dependent
00:24:46.35\00:24:48.98
but you consider how dependent
00:24:49.02\00:24:50.52
a new born is on it's mother
00:24:50.55\00:24:52.99
and we can think
of many illustrations
00:24:53.02\00:24:57.99
of where someone out here
00:24:58.03\00:24:59.36
in the real world
is very dependant.
00:24:59.39\00:25:01.03
And we are all
depended upon God.
00:25:01.06\00:25:02.40
We are very dependent on God.
00:25:02.43\00:25:03.77
If He wasn't beating our hearts
00:25:03.80\00:25:05.13
and you know, we
couldn't breathe,
00:25:05.17\00:25:06.50
our brain cells couldn't work
and all the electric impulses
00:25:06.53\00:25:09.17
and blood flowing
throughout the body,
00:25:09.20\00:25:11.51
we are absolutely
dependent upon God
00:25:11.54\00:25:14.54
every moment of our
lives in order to live.
00:25:14.58\00:25:16.68
Right, absolutely
and so we see then
00:25:16.71\00:25:20.18
that these four differences that
00:25:20.22\00:25:21.75
people commonly refer back to
00:25:21.78\00:25:24.05
when they are talking
about the value of the unborn,
00:25:24.09\00:25:26.76
that in actuality,
they are not relevant
00:25:26.79\00:25:29.86
in determining moral value that
00:25:29.89\00:25:33.90
we at fertilization
at our very beginning,
00:25:33.93\00:25:37.13
we were, what we are,
00:25:37.17\00:25:39.33
we were then what we are now.
00:25:39.37\00:25:40.97
We will simply
add... Different stage.
00:25:41.00\00:25:43.54
Different size,
different level of development
00:25:43.57\00:25:45.07
in a different environment,
00:25:45.11\00:25:46.44
add a different
degree of dependency.
00:25:46.47\00:25:48.04
Right, and it makes
perfect sense to me that
00:25:48.08\00:25:49.88
you know, when Seth and
Abby came out of my wife,
00:25:49.91\00:25:53.18
you know, one
week old let's say,
00:25:53.21\00:25:55.18
they are human, they
are valuable, go back,
00:25:55.22\00:25:57.72
three weeks before
and they are still them.
00:25:57.75\00:26:01.46
It's still
Seth, it's still Abby,
00:26:01.49\00:26:02.82
it's still me, it's still you.
00:26:02.86\00:26:04.23
It just makes perfect sense.
00:26:04.26\00:26:05.69
Right, absolutely and so for us
00:26:05.73\00:26:09.33
it's abut being
honest about this idea
00:26:09.36\00:26:12.77
where either take in the life
00:26:12.80\00:26:14.14
of an innocent
human being or we're not.
00:26:14.17\00:26:16.67
Again, it can be
one, it can be the other
00:26:16.71\00:26:18.94
but it can't be both.
00:26:18.97\00:26:20.31
And so when we are
making distinctions saying
00:26:20.34\00:26:22.24
these abortions
should be permissible
00:26:22.28\00:26:23.91
or these
abortions should not be,
00:26:23.95\00:26:27.42
we really have to come
back to that central point.
00:26:27.45\00:26:30.89
I got it, wow, thank
you, thank you so much.
00:26:30.92\00:26:33.89
I want to finish this segment,
00:26:33.92\00:26:35.72
this program with a
couple of quick versus
00:26:35.76\00:26:37.93
in the Book of Job,
00:26:37.96\00:26:39.29
chapter 8, chapter
10, verse 8 and verse 12.
00:26:39.33\00:26:43.90
Job said to God,
"Your hands have made me
00:26:43.93\00:26:47.24
and you have
fashioned me an intricate unity,
00:26:47.27\00:26:52.91
you have granted me life."
00:26:52.94\00:26:56.81
"You granted me life."
00:26:56.85\00:26:58.18
And God has given us life
ever since the very beginning
00:26:58.21\00:27:00.98
when the conception took place
00:27:01.02\00:27:02.35
and He's been with
us all of our lives,
00:27:02.38\00:27:04.19
He's been with us
every step of the way
00:27:04.22\00:27:06.29
and He'll
continue to be with us.
00:27:06.32\00:27:07.76
And as Antionette
mentioned, the big issue
00:27:07.79\00:27:10.03
when it comes to abortion is,
is it really talking the life
00:27:10.06\00:27:12.96
of an innocent
human being or not?
00:27:12.99\00:27:15.36
And we believe it is
but we also believe that
00:27:15.40\00:27:18.33
there is a God in
heaven who loves us
00:27:18.37\00:27:21.00
even if we'd done
wrong and that His love,
00:27:21.04\00:27:23.17
His forgiveness
and His healing power
00:27:23.20\00:27:26.07
is available to you
and to me, right now.
00:27:26.11\00:27:28.78
So let's get to know that God
00:27:28.81\00:27:30.91
and may His love
change our hearts.
00:27:30.95\00:27:34.65
Dianne Wagner and
Antionette Duck show
00:27:34.68\00:27:36.75
a powerful life
changing information
00:27:36.79\00:27:38.89
in this 13 Part series,
The Abortion Controversy.
00:27:38.92\00:27:42.79
To order this six and half
hour of DVD set for $34, 95.
00:27:42.82\00:27:47.26
Call 1.800.782.4253,
that's 1.800.782.4253
00:27:47.30\00:27:54.67
or can write to
White Horse Media,
00:27:54.70\00:27:56.10
PO Box 1139,
Newport, Washington 99156
00:27:56.14\00:28:00.34
or order online at
whitehorsemedia.com.
00:28:00.38\00:28:04.48