When a woman has an
abortion or, as they say,
00:00:08.10\00:00:10.97
terminates her pregnancy,
has something subhuman
00:00:11.01\00:00:14.34
simply just been
evacuated from her body...
00:00:14.38\00:00:16.91
or has the life of a
person actually been taken?
00:00:16.95\00:00:20.35
And, what does the
Bible say about this?
00:00:20.38\00:00:22.98
You'll find out next on
"The Abortion Controversy"
00:00:23.02\00:00:26.25
Welcome to Part 5 of
"The Abortion Controversy"
00:00:54.02\00:00:56.72
This is a 13-part series
that deals with the big issues
00:00:56.75\00:00:59.82
of life and death given
the pregnancy and abortion,
00:00:59.85\00:01:03.26
and whether it's right or wrong.
00:01:03.29\00:01:05.36
I'm Steve Wohlberg and I'm here
in our White Horse Media Studio
00:01:05.39\00:01:09.26
with Antionette Duck.
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She is the founder of a
ministry called: "Mafgia"
00:01:10.73\00:01:15.00
She has a passion for life.
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She was almost aborted
when she was just a little baby
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inside of her mother,
but her mother changed
00:01:22.54\00:01:24.25
her mind and we
believe that God's providence
00:01:24.28\00:01:27.05
was certainly involved in
that, and she's here today
00:01:27.08\00:01:29.82
and she is a
speaker, she is a writer,
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and she has a lot
to say about this.
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Our topic today is: When
is a person really a person?"
00:01:33.99\00:01:38.49
"The kiss for life,"
based upon the Bible.
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Here we are again...
Antionette, this has really
00:01:42.80\00:01:46.50
been a fascinating journey,
and I think this is probably
00:01:46.53\00:01:49.97
one of our most
important programs because,
00:01:50.01\00:01:51.84
as you know, there's a
controversy swirling within
00:01:51.87\00:01:55.71
Christian churches
within the religious world
00:01:55.74\00:01:58.01
about abortion and the Bible.
00:01:58.05\00:02:00.48
Some say, "Well, abortion
is not forbidden in the Bible,"
00:02:00.52\00:02:04.09
and they also say that
a person is not a person
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until actually the fetus
pops out and takes a breath,
00:02:07.09\00:02:10.63
and so we're going to address
this issue and try to do it
00:02:10.66\00:02:13.26
from Scripture as well.
00:02:13.29\00:02:14.66
So, where do you want to
start as we move into this?
00:02:14.70\00:02:17.87
Well the first point that
I would like to address is
00:02:17.90\00:02:21.00
this misconception that simply
because the word "abortion"
00:02:21.04\00:02:25.97
does not appear in
Scripture, or just other
00:02:26.01\00:02:28.61
religious authorities,
that abortion is permissible.
00:02:28.64\00:02:31.91
Bioethicist, Scott Klusendorf,
from The Life Training Institute
00:02:31.95\00:02:34.98
... I really love
his thought on this.
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Is our position that the
Bible condones everything
00:02:37.82\00:02:41.16
it does not explicitly condemn?
00:02:41.19\00:02:43.79
Would we really say that?
00:02:43.83\00:02:45.79
Couldn't we think of quite
a few things that the Bible
00:02:45.83\00:02:47.86
doesn't actually
condemn, but that would grieve
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the Father's
heart. Like cigars...
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The Bible doesn't
say... I've never read,
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"Don't smoke cigars,"
but since the Bible is the
00:02:54.17\00:02:56.87
temple of God, and
so we shouldn't be...
00:02:56.91\00:02:58.87
well, we're
hurting ourselves if we do.
00:02:58.91\00:03:00.84
Absolutely, there are
many things we could think of
00:03:00.88\00:03:02.71
that do grieve
the Father's heart,
00:03:02.74\00:03:04.08
but they're not
specifically listed here.
00:03:04.11\00:03:05.75
And so our
position can't simply be,
00:03:05.78\00:03:08.22
"Well, the Bible
doesn't say the word and so
00:03:08.25\00:03:10.99
the Lord has
made it permissible.
00:03:11.02\00:03:14.16
We are to use
Scripture to interpret itself,
00:03:14.19\00:03:17.79
and throughout the
entirety of Scripture,
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the value of the human being
from creation to the cross,
00:03:20.13\00:03:23.60
to eternity, is proclaimed.
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That's our
position as a ministry,
00:03:26.63\00:03:28.07
and what we think really helps
to clarify a lot of this issue.
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We know that the
Lord is our Creator...
00:03:31.81\00:03:34.21
In Psalms 95:6, it
says, "Oh come let us worship
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and bow down; let us kneel
before the Lord our Maker."
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In Isaiah 45:18, it
says, "For thus says the Lord,
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Who created the
heavens, Who is God, Who formed
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the earth and made
it, Who established it,
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Who did not create in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:
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I am the Lord and
there is no other."
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And, in
Revelation 4:11, we are told,
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"You are worthy, oh
Lord, our God to receive glory
00:03:57.97\00:04:00.70
and honor and power,
for You created all things,
00:04:00.74\00:04:03.74
and by Your will they were
created and have their being."
00:04:03.77\00:04:06.98
We know that we were
made in the image of the Lord
00:04:07.01\00:04:09.38
that He is the one who
established our humanity.
00:04:09.41\00:04:11.41
In Genesis
1:26-27, "Then God said,
00:04:11.45\00:04:15.48
Let us make man
in our own image,
00:04:15.52\00:04:17.45
according to our
likeness, let them have dominion
00:04:17.49\00:04:19.52
over the fish of the
sea, the birds of the air,
00:04:19.55\00:04:21.36
over cattle, over the earth,
00:04:21.39\00:04:22.72
and every creeping thing
that creeps on the earth."
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So God made man in His
own image, in the image of God
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He created them male
and female He created them.
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We focused on that
in the last program,
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we really zeroed in on
that, that that's the foundation
00:04:31.40\00:04:33.54
of everything... is
the creation account
00:04:33.57\00:04:36.30
and that God is our Maker
and we're here for a reason.
00:04:36.34\00:04:39.04
And of course in Psalm 139...
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I'd like to read
that... Absolutely!
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This has really impressed me.
00:04:43.14\00:04:46.11
This is Psalm 139:13-14,
where David is talking to God
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and David wrote, "You
formed my inward parts.
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You covered me in my mother's
womb," or the margin says,
00:04:56.12\00:05:00.40
"You wove me in
my mother's womb."
00:05:00.43\00:05:02.46
"I will praise you for I am
fearfully and wonderfully made,
00:05:02.50\00:05:05.37
marvelous are Your works and
that my soul knows very well."
00:05:05.40\00:05:09.87
I was dialoging with a friend
of mine, a missionary friend,
00:05:09.90\00:05:13.88
and we were
emailing back and forth
00:05:13.91\00:05:16.28
about whether a
person is really a person
00:05:16.31\00:05:19.35
until you come
out and take a breath.
00:05:19.38\00:05:22.08
And he wanted to know,
"Well show me from the Bible
00:05:22.12\00:05:25.29
that a person is really
a person inside the womb."
00:05:25.32\00:05:27.39
So I quoted this
text where David said,
00:05:27.42\00:05:29.79
"You wove me in
my mother's womb."
00:05:29.82\00:05:32.63
And I said to my
friend, "David was me
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when he was in there."
00:05:36.40\00:05:37.77
When my first... well, I
have a daughter and a son,
00:05:37.80\00:05:40.30
but when Seth was inside of
Kristin, we had an ultrasound
00:05:40.34\00:05:44.07
done and I still
remember, he was inside
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and the little camera,
you know, zeroed in on him,
00:05:48.54\00:05:50.65
and he had his hands
on his ears like this,
00:05:50.68\00:05:53.38
and he was just sort
of in a certain position
00:05:53.42\00:05:55.75
and I remember
distinctly recognizing that
00:05:55.78\00:06:00.09
after he was born that
many times, he would be in that
00:06:00.12\00:06:02.52
same position and
I thought to myself,
00:06:02.56\00:06:04.36
Seth was there and Seth
was there - it was Seth!
00:06:04.39\00:06:07.16
It was my son. Yes, absolutely
00:06:07.20\00:06:09.86
We see that we're
not merely human beings,
00:06:09.90\00:06:12.17
we're human beings created
in the image of the Lord.
00:06:12.20\00:06:14.57
And in that passage,
David is talking literally,
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not just metaphorically,
he's talking literally
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about the care with which
the Lord crafted his being,
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and it wasn't just after he
was born, it was when he was
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unformed and forming, and
when was that happening...
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from the beginning,
from conception in those
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early moments and
in those early months.
00:06:30.52\00:06:32.85
It's an incredible
process, isn't it? Absolutely!
00:06:32.89\00:06:35.32
We'll talk about later
the scientific evidence,
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but just when you really
understand what's going on
00:06:37.33\00:06:40.30
in there, it's
definitely, as the Bible says,
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where David says,
"Marvelous are Your works,"
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and I can't imagine how any
Christian wouldn't recognize
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that that was the work of God
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as well inside
of a woman's body.
00:06:54.84\00:06:57.61
Yes, and so we see
then that being fearfully
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and wonderfully made,
it wasn't for David alone.
00:07:00.72\00:07:03.45
That applies to each
and every human being
00:07:03.49\00:07:05.69
who has ever walked
the face of the earth,
00:07:05.72\00:07:07.56
from our very beginning
till we take our last breath...
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the Lord's hand has been on us.
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Now, there are certain
verses that I've discovered
00:07:12.86\00:07:15.16
in my research and
you've been reading about
00:07:15.20\00:07:16.87
this for a lot
longer than I have. Yes
00:07:16.90\00:07:18.37
I'm fairly new to
this, but I'm a fast learner.
00:07:18.40\00:07:20.64
I've learned that there
are a number of Bible verses
00:07:20.67\00:07:22.80
that are used to
support the theory that
00:07:22.84\00:07:27.18
a human being really
isn't a person or a soul
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until they come
out and take a breath.
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And, what's the main text that
is used to support that theory?
00:07:33.92\00:07:37.65
I believe that's Genesis 2:7.
00:07:37.69\00:07:39.85
Should I read it, or
would you like to? Sure
00:07:39.89\00:07:42.92
It says, "And the Lord
God formed man of the dust
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of the ground and
breathed into his nostrils
00:07:45.99\00:07:48.10
the breath of life and
man became a living being."
00:07:48.13\00:07:51.23
People have used this
verse as evidence that
00:07:51.27\00:07:56.47
you're not actually alive
until you come out of the womb
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and you take a breath
through your nostrils.
00:07:59.74\00:08:02.31
There are several problems with
this just on a practical level.
00:08:02.34\00:08:06.21
First, there are
some babies who are born
00:08:06.25\00:08:09.82
and they don't actually
breathe through their nostrils
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for several minutes.
00:08:11.99\00:08:14.29
Does that mean that
because they haven't
00:08:14.32\00:08:16.19
breathed through their
nostrils that their parents
00:08:16.22\00:08:18.06
would then be allowed to
take them and end their life?
00:08:18.09\00:08:21.36
Well, no one would say "yes"
because everyone would say,
00:08:21.40\00:08:24.17
"Well no, the baby
is out in the world,
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it's now a human being."
00:08:25.67\00:08:29.04
We can't then make
that argument that because
00:08:29.07\00:08:32.74
that was the way that Adam
breathed through his nostrils,
00:08:32.77\00:08:35.78
that that then
applies to the child as well.
00:08:35.81\00:08:39.35
On another level, when
we say that this is how Adam
00:08:39.38\00:08:43.79
became a living being,
because the Lord breathed
00:08:43.82\00:08:45.45
into him, He
breathed through his nostrils,
00:08:45.49\00:08:47.02
and... the breath of
life. Right, the breath of life.
00:08:47.06\00:08:49.72
Then he became a
living soul. Right
00:08:49.76\00:08:51.09
When we equate
Adam to the unborn,
00:08:51.13\00:08:54.90
we're saying that at
their very beginning,
00:08:54.93\00:08:57.57
they were the same
and they simply were not.
00:08:57.60\00:09:00.04
Creation and procreation are
night and day totally different.
00:09:00.07\00:09:04.64
From the beginning and
we will explore this more
00:09:04.67\00:09:06.71
in the scientific
defense of the unborn,
00:09:06.74\00:09:09.14
but from its earliest
moments, the unborn is alive.
00:09:09.18\00:09:12.11
We know that scientifically.
00:09:12.15\00:09:15.28
The unborn is also
receiving oxygen as it is
00:09:15.32\00:09:19.22
in that gestational
period from its mother.
00:09:19.25\00:09:22.36
Adam, at his very
beginning, was formed.
00:09:22.39\00:09:26.49
He was a form of a
man, but he was not alive.
00:09:26.53\00:09:29.86
He was inanimate
clay, he was just lifeless.
00:09:29.90\00:09:33.20
Absolutely... he needed the
breath of life to become alive.
00:09:33.23\00:09:37.71
To jumpstart him! Absolutely
00:09:37.74\00:09:39.47
The unborn is already alive.
00:09:39.51\00:09:41.91
They've already
been jumpstarted. Yes!
00:09:41.94\00:09:43.58
And so, I mean Eve,
when God took Adam's rib,
00:09:43.61\00:09:46.61
and made a woman, she was alive,
00:09:46.65\00:09:49.85
and then as the
baby is then conceived,
00:09:49.88\00:09:51.95
and then begins to
grow, that baby is alive,
00:09:51.99\00:09:54.39
and to correlate and say because
Adam needed the breath of life
00:09:54.42\00:09:58.86
in order for an inanimate
object or inanimate person
00:09:58.89\00:10:02.60
to become a real
person or a real soul
00:10:02.63\00:10:04.43
based on Genesis 2:7,
then to move from there
00:10:04.47\00:10:07.00
to a life coming
out and breathing,
00:10:07.04\00:10:09.84
then they become a living
soul, it's apples and oranges.
00:10:09.87\00:10:12.94
It's totally
different, it really is. Yes
00:10:12.97\00:10:15.11
Vastly different
and, as you mentioned,
00:10:15.14\00:10:16.48
it also... well to
me, it assumes that the
00:10:16.51\00:10:19.51
breath of life is oxygen.
00:10:19.55\00:10:20.92
Now, if it is oxygen, then still
the baby has oxygenated blood
00:10:20.95\00:10:26.72
as it is
growing in the womb. Yes
00:10:26.76\00:10:28.96
And so, to me, it's just
a huge jump leap in logic
00:10:28.99\00:10:33.53
to look at the creation of Adam
and say - until a baby comes
00:10:33.56\00:10:36.56
out and breathes or at
least breathes through the nose,
00:10:36.60\00:10:40.00
then it's a living soul. Yes
00:10:40.04\00:10:42.44
I just can't see
it. Yes, absolutely
00:10:42.47\00:10:44.67
Well, and as I read
"Greg Koukl," a bioethicist,
00:10:44.71\00:10:48.88
with "Stand to Reason" said:
00:10:48.91\00:10:50.25
"Basically, this verse
proves that you need the breath
00:10:50.28\00:10:53.98
of the Lord to, as you said,
jumpstart an inanimate object
00:10:54.02\00:10:57.89
made out of clay
- that's in essence
00:10:57.92\00:11:00.42
what this verse has proven here.
00:11:00.46\00:11:01.89
Right, I want to just
read a quotation from the
00:11:01.92\00:11:04.13
world famous medical
director, he is dead now,
00:11:04.16\00:11:07.20
of Battle Creek
Sanitarium, years ago,
00:11:07.23\00:11:08.96
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg.
00:11:09.00\00:11:10.33
He was one of the most well-
known physicians of his time,
00:11:10.37\00:11:12.87
and in little
book he wrote called:
00:11:12.90\00:11:14.54
"Man, the Masterpiece" in 1894.
00:11:14.57\00:11:17.41
He said that "from the
very moment of conception,"
00:11:17.44\00:11:21.14
he said, "processes have
been in operation which result
00:11:21.18\00:11:25.68
in the production of a
fully developed human being
00:11:25.71\00:11:28.45
from a minute cell.
00:11:28.48\00:11:29.98
As soon as this
development begins,
00:11:30.02\00:11:32.32
a new human being
has come into existence."
00:11:32.35\00:11:35.22
So, he is very clear on this,
and I think we can continue to
00:11:35.26\00:11:40.10
build our case
that that is the truth.
00:11:40.13\00:11:41.60
I mean, David said, "You
wove me in my mother's womb."
00:11:41.63\00:11:46.90
It was Him and I
think whether Seth was
00:11:46.94\00:11:49.57
inside or
outside, it was still Seth.
00:11:49.60\00:11:52.21
We're inside a building right
now and when we go outside,
00:11:52.24\00:11:55.41
we're still us.
00:11:55.44\00:11:56.78
We're who we are inside
and we're who we are outside
00:11:56.81\00:12:00.35
that in the fetus' case,
and from what I understand,
00:12:00.38\00:12:02.78
"fetus" is Latin for
"little person." Absolutely
00:12:02.82\00:12:05.85
Little person that whether
they're growing and developing,
00:12:05.89\00:12:10.03
they're still who they
are even before they come out
00:12:10.06\00:12:14.50
and take their first
breath whether it's from
00:12:14.56\00:12:16.06
the nose or from the mouth.
00:12:16.10\00:12:17.43
Seth, when he came flying
out and I was right there,
00:12:17.47\00:12:20.74
he was screaming
and I'm pretty sure that
00:12:20.77\00:12:23.77
his breathing was coming from
the mouth, not from the nose,
00:12:23.81\00:12:25.97
at least right away.
00:12:26.01\00:12:27.34
What I also think is
interesting before we move
00:12:27.38\00:12:28.84
on is the Bible, when
it refers to the unborn,
00:12:28.88\00:12:32.35
a baby in the womb versus
a baby outside of the womb,
00:12:32.38\00:12:35.22
in the Greek, the same
word is used "brephos."
00:12:35.25\00:12:39.75
It's used to refer to the baby.
00:12:39.79\00:12:41.59
We see that in Luke 1:41-44,
where Mary went to Elizabeth
00:12:41.62\00:12:47.76
and the baby leaped
in Elizabeth's womb...
00:12:47.80\00:12:50.33
That was John...
Yes, John the Baptist
00:12:50.37\00:12:53.40
leaped in her womb.
00:12:54.24\00:12:55.70
The word in the Greek
that's used there is "brephos,"
00:12:55.74\00:12:59.41
when the babe
leaped in her womb.
00:12:59.44\00:13:03.21
In Luke 2:12, then when
we're referring to the Savior,
00:13:03.24\00:13:06.72
who is now born in
the world, in the manger,
00:13:06.75\00:13:09.55
the same word in the Greek
is used to refer to the Savior.
00:13:09.58\00:13:13.62
The Scripture is not drawing
a distinction in value there.
00:13:13.66\00:13:16.76
It's not calling the baby inside
the womb by a certain term,
00:13:16.79\00:13:19.86
and calling the baby outside the
womb by a different terminology
00:13:19.89\00:13:23.53
to somehow establish a subhuman
versus human value scale. Right
00:13:23.57\00:13:29.17
The baby is human
from the beginning
00:13:29.20\00:13:31.47
throughout until it's born.
00:13:31.51\00:13:33.21
Got it. Now, what about...
there are other Scriptures
00:13:33.24\00:13:37.31
we've looked at
Genesis 2:7 briefly.
00:13:37.35\00:13:39.28
There are other Scriptures
that are used, a couple of them.
00:13:39.31\00:13:42.15
There's one in Exodus
21, there is one in Numbers 5
00:13:42.18\00:13:44.95
that are used and
I've read these arguments.
00:13:44.99\00:13:46.96
People have used these
arguments, these Scriptures
00:13:46.99\00:13:48.89
to try to prove
that a fetus is subhuman,
00:13:48.92\00:13:53.26
and, you know,
that's not really a person.
00:13:53.29\00:13:56.93
So let's just - why don't
we look at those verses? Sure!
00:13:56.97\00:13:59.20
Exodus 21:22 is one that
is quite controversial...
00:13:59.23\00:14:06.74
Okay, I'll get
there as quick as I can.
00:14:06.78\00:14:12.01
Exodus 21... All
right, I'll just read it,
00:14:12.05\00:14:14.28
and then you can
comment. Absolutely
00:14:14.32\00:14:16.18
Verse 22 says, "If men fight..."
I'm assuming it's 2 men fighting
00:14:16.22\00:14:19.99
... and they hurt
a woman with child...
00:14:20.02\00:14:21.89
and I'm assuming that
means that the wife has
00:14:21.92\00:14:24.89
gotten involved in the
tussle... got 2 men fighting
00:14:24.93\00:14:27.53
and the wife gets in
the middle of this...
00:14:27.56\00:14:29.23
"... and so that she
gives birth prematurely,
00:14:29.26\00:14:31.97
yet no harm follows, he
shall surely be punished..."
00:14:32.00\00:14:35.00
meaning the other
person, not the husband,
00:14:35.04\00:14:37.01
"he shall be punished
according as the woman's husband
00:14:37.04\00:14:39.81
imposes on him and he shall
pay as the judges determine."
00:14:39.84\00:14:43.98
And I've heard this
interpreted to mean that the
00:14:44.01\00:14:47.95
fetus, which supposedly
there is a miscarriage, dies,
00:14:47.98\00:14:54.69
that if the fetus was
truly a person, then God would
00:14:54.72\00:14:58.09
give a more stricter punishment,
but the punishment is
00:14:58.13\00:15:01.33
simply a fine that the husband
imposes upon the other man,
00:15:01.36\00:15:05.40
and they use that
term to prove that, really,
00:15:05.43\00:15:08.20
it's just
something subhuman in there.
00:15:08.24\00:15:10.21
What do you think about that?
00:15:10.24\00:15:11.57
Well, I think, first of
all, the Lord is simple.
00:15:11.61\00:15:17.01
He's not
complicated, He is very complex,
00:15:17.05\00:15:20.12
but He asks us to come to
Him with faith like a child.
00:15:20.15\00:15:23.42
... Not seeking to
twist things to make them mean
00:15:23.45\00:15:26.09
what we want them to mean,
but approaching His word simply.
00:15:26.12\00:15:28.82
Just reading this text on
its face, we have on scenario.
00:15:28.86\00:15:33.09
The scenario is... 2 men are
fighting, they strike a woman,
00:15:33.13\00:15:36.50
and her child comes forth.
00:15:36.53\00:15:38.83
If no harm follows,
then the person who hit her,
00:15:38.87\00:15:43.94
will pay a fine.
00:15:43.97\00:15:45.31
Same scenario... 2 men
are fighting, they hit a woman
00:15:45.34\00:15:48.68
and a child comes
forth, if any harm follows,
00:15:48.71\00:15:51.68
it will be life for life,
eye for eye, tooth for tooth,
00:15:51.71\00:15:55.08
burn for burn,
stripe for stripe.
00:15:55.12\00:15:56.82
Just reading the
text on its face,
00:15:56.85\00:15:59.69
the context doesn't imply death.
00:15:59.72\00:16:04.76
It implies a child
coming forth and it's the same
00:16:04.79\00:16:09.16
scenario both times
where we're talking about
00:16:09.20\00:16:12.03
harm that either
is done or not done,
00:16:12.07\00:16:14.60
both to the
mother and to the child.
00:16:14.64\00:16:17.21
If the child comes
forth and no harm follows...
00:16:17.24\00:16:20.54
Well, the implication
that is no harm to the mother,
00:16:20.58\00:16:23.28
and no harm to the child.
00:16:23.31\00:16:24.65
So people are reading into
this that the baby is dead.
00:16:24.68\00:16:26.82
Yes, and in the
research that I did...
00:16:26.85\00:16:30.02
phenomenal research has
been done by many people
00:16:30.05\00:16:33.99
interested in this issue.
00:16:34.02\00:16:36.12
One of them is "Stand
to Reason Organization"
00:16:36.16\00:16:39.49
that's just really wonderful.
00:16:39.53\00:16:41.46
I read about the Hebrew,
the way that the actual Hebrew
00:16:41.50\00:16:45.47
that's used here,
there are two Hebrew terms...
00:16:45.50\00:16:49.04
"Yalid and yasha"
and I may or may not be
00:16:49.07\00:16:51.31
pronouncing those correctly.
00:16:51.34\00:16:52.67
But they refer to
the child coming forth,
00:16:52.71\00:16:57.08
and they do say that a
child comes forth in the Hebrew.
00:16:57.11\00:17:01.78
What's fascinating is this
term "yasha," when it's used,
00:17:01.82\00:17:05.79
throughout Scripture,
it's always used in the context
00:17:05.82\00:17:09.49
of life -
something coming forward.
00:17:09.52\00:17:14.00
The Lord said, "Let the earth
bring forth living creatures."
00:17:14.03\00:17:18.43
When the Lord was talking
to Noah, he said, "Bring out
00:17:18.47\00:17:21.47
with you every
living thing of all flesh."
00:17:21.50\00:17:24.51
And these are all in Genesis...
00:17:24.54\00:17:28.08
"Then man will not be
your heir, but one who shall
00:17:28.11\00:17:30.25
come forth from your own body."
00:17:30.28\00:17:33.75
Again in Genesis...
"Now the first came forth
00:17:33.78\00:17:35.88
all over like a hairy
garment." Talking about Esau,
00:17:35.92\00:17:38.65
when Jacob and Esau were born.
00:17:38.69\00:17:41.06
It's the same word, "yasha,"
00:17:41.09\00:17:42.42
and it's used in
the context of life.
00:17:42.46\00:17:44.26
I've heard that some
Jewish scholars will say that
00:17:44.33\00:17:46.93
the baby did die, but
that doesn't necessarily mean
00:17:46.96\00:17:49.70
that that's what happened,
that's just their view.
00:17:49.73\00:17:51.37
A friend of mine, as
we researched this and he
00:17:51.40\00:17:54.44
explained to me, he
said, "Really, what's
00:17:54.47\00:17:56.24
happening is that God
cannot and does not justly
00:17:56.27\00:18:00.64
assign blame, full
blame in the situation
00:18:00.68\00:18:02.71
because there's
three people involved.
00:18:02.74\00:18:04.71
The woman might have
just run into the fight,
00:18:04.75\00:18:06.75
she might have fallen
down, the husband might have
00:18:06.78\00:18:10.55
hit her a little bit or
the other man might have
00:18:10.59\00:18:12.45
hit her and so it's
hard to assign blame,
00:18:12.49\00:18:15.19
and there might
have been other factors.
00:18:15.22\00:18:16.93
So the reason why God doesn't
give a stronger punishment
00:18:16.96\00:18:19.96
is simply because it's
impossible to assign full flame
00:18:20.00\00:18:22.93
in the
situation and as you said,
00:18:22.96\00:18:24.43
we don't even know
that the baby has died,
00:18:24.47\00:18:26.74
and so, He gives a reasonable
consequence which is a fine.
00:18:26.77\00:18:31.61
But to take this
text and to use it to mean
00:18:31.64\00:18:34.94
that the fetus is subhuman
because the fine was not
00:18:34.98\00:18:38.48
stricter, again, it's a big
stretch just like in Genesis 2:7
00:18:38.51\00:18:42.48
Now, we've got to move along...
00:18:42.52\00:18:43.85
Let's go to the other
one in the book of Numbers
00:18:43.89\00:18:46.12
because I know that's another
verse that's used Numbers 5,
00:18:46.15\00:18:50.69
and these are verses
that I've encountered as
00:18:50.73\00:18:52.86
I've been studying this.
00:18:52.89\00:18:54.23
Numbers 5 talks about
a woman who is unfaithful
00:18:54.26\00:18:58.13
evidently to her
husband, and she is then brought
00:18:58.17\00:19:02.04
before the priest and
the priest does a test
00:19:02.07\00:19:06.27
to see whether
she is lying or not;
00:19:06.31\00:19:08.24
whether she really was
with another man or not. Yes
00:19:08.28\00:19:10.75
And that's in Numbers
5:11 onward and in verse 17,
00:19:10.78\00:19:17.19
the priest takes certain holy
water and he has her drink it,
00:19:17.22\00:19:21.12
and then it says in verse
22, "May this water that causes
00:19:21.16\00:19:26.16
the curse go into your stomach
and make your belly swell
00:19:26.19\00:19:29.06
and your thigh
rot if she is guilty,
00:19:29.10\00:19:31.43
but if she's not
guilty, then verse 28 says,
00:19:31.47\00:19:34.34
"The woman has
really not defiled herself,
00:19:34.37\00:19:36.30
she is clean and then she is
free and may conceive children."
00:19:36.34\00:19:40.21
Yes... So comment on that.
00:19:40.24\00:19:43.08
Well okay, some have
read that the thigh rotting
00:19:43.11\00:19:47.68
it's actually a euphemism
for the reproductive system,
00:19:47.72\00:19:50.62
and so when her belly would
swell and her thigh would rot,
00:19:50.65\00:19:53.92
that means something
happened to her reproductively.
00:19:53.96\00:19:57.43
Now, proponents of
abortion would say,
00:19:57.46\00:20:01.30
having read into this text,
that this woman was pregnant
00:20:01.33\00:20:04.33
and so when her thigh
rots, that's the child being
00:20:04.37\00:20:08.44
expelled from her body
or having a miscarriage.
00:20:08.47\00:20:11.07
I've heard people say that God
is really causing an abortion
00:20:11.11\00:20:12.97
so if God did it,
then... it must be okay
00:20:13.01\00:20:15.61
or at least in
some situations. Yes
00:20:15.64\00:20:17.91
That has been an interpretation.
00:20:17.95\00:20:20.75
The problem... there are a
couple of problems with that.
00:20:20.78\00:20:24.05
The first is the text
doesn't say anything about
00:20:24.09\00:20:26.79
the woman being pregnant.
00:20:26.82\00:20:28.16
It doesn't give any
indication with that.
00:20:28.19\00:20:30.83
That really is
being read into the text.
00:20:30.86\00:20:33.46
The second is, if when
we read the text itself,
00:20:33.50\00:20:38.17
it says that, "if she is
found innocent, she will be
00:20:38.20\00:20:43.57
released and she will still
be able to conceive children."
00:20:43.61\00:20:47.58
Well, what's the opposite
of being able to conceive?
00:20:47.61\00:20:49.94
It's barrenness, and so a
solid interpretation of this
00:20:49.98\00:20:54.62
would be her thigh
rotting, she's struck barren,
00:20:54.65\00:20:58.45
she's no longer
able to bear children,
00:20:58.49\00:21:00.02
if in fact she was lying.
00:21:00.06\00:21:02.39
And in that case,
it's a judgment of God.
00:21:02.42\00:21:05.49
It's not any kind of
allowance for abortion. Yes!
00:21:05.53\00:21:12.87
A totally
different situation. Yes!
00:21:12.90\00:21:14.24
In both the Exodus
passage and the Numbers passage,
00:21:14.27\00:21:16.54
there is a tendency to
say, "Well, we think this caused
00:21:16.57\00:21:20.44
the child to die and so elective
abortion is permissible."
00:21:20.48\00:21:24.25
Elective abortion is
an intentional act where
00:21:24.28\00:21:27.58
the life of an
innocent human being is taken.
00:21:27.62\00:21:31.42
Particularly in
the Numbers passage,
00:21:31.45\00:21:33.39
if, in fact, she had
been pregnant and she had lost
00:21:33.42\00:21:36.22
the child, that was
from the hand of the Lord,
00:21:36.26\00:21:39.49
that was not a carte
blanche permission for us to
00:21:39.53\00:21:44.90
then go ahead and take the
lives of our unborn children.
00:21:44.93\00:21:47.90
Got it, got it... So
Genesis 2:7 about Adam
00:21:47.94\00:21:50.71
becoming a living soul
is not a model for a person
00:21:50.74\00:21:55.21
becoming a person when
they breathe because it's
00:21:55.24\00:21:56.85
totally different from
what happens in procreation.
00:21:56.88\00:21:59.75
And Exodus 21 is not assigning
the fetus to a subhuman
00:21:59.78\00:22:05.29
status when you
really look at the context,
00:22:05.32\00:22:07.19
and Numbers 5 is not even really
dealing with abortion at all,
00:22:07.22\00:22:11.79
and we don't even know if
the woman was pregnant. Yes
00:22:11.83\00:22:13.70
She's probably just
having a judgment upon her
00:22:13.73\00:22:15.63
so she can't have children.
00:22:15.66\00:22:17.00
So these Scriptures are
really being, as I see it,
00:22:17.03\00:22:21.10
Peter talks about people
that twist the Scriptures,
00:22:21.14\00:22:25.67
and they read in and they take
them where God really didn't
00:22:25.71\00:22:30.91
intend for them to be taken.
00:22:30.95\00:22:32.78
And I've seen in
print these interpretations,
00:22:32.81\00:22:37.39
and I've looked at the verses
myself and I've just thought,
00:22:37.42\00:22:39.75
"How do they get that?"
00:22:39.79\00:22:41.36
It's just really not there. Yes
00:22:41.39\00:22:43.49
Well what's really
fascinating, going back to the
00:22:43.53\00:22:47.60
Numbers passages
briefly, this idea that,
00:22:47.63\00:22:49.60
"Well the Lord did it and
so I'm allowed to do it too,"
00:22:49.63\00:22:52.17
if you consider the
story of David and Bathsheba,
00:22:52.20\00:22:54.64
David had an affair with
Bathsheba, she got pregnant,
00:22:54.67\00:22:57.97
and the punishment was that
he was going to lose that child.
00:22:58.01\00:23:01.88
But the child was born and the
00:23:01.91\00:23:04.18
Lord allowed the
child's life to be taken.
00:23:04.21\00:23:06.72
That was not a permission
for David to go forward
00:23:06.75\00:23:10.69
and take the life of his
born children simply because
00:23:10.72\00:23:14.39
something has
happened... and again,
00:23:14.42\00:23:16.19
this text is not at all
clear that that is what happened
00:23:16.22\00:23:19.53
as if she had a
miscarriage or an abortion.
00:23:19.56\00:23:21.56
But simply because the
Lord acted in a certain way,
00:23:21.60\00:23:25.03
that doesn't mean that
we're allowed to take it
00:23:25.07\00:23:27.57
upon ourselves to do
that particularly when
00:23:27.60\00:23:33.11
it's taking the life of
an innocent human being.
00:23:33.14\00:23:35.58
Right, and we need to
look at all the Bible.
00:23:35.61\00:23:37.55
We need to look at
the whole Scripture,
00:23:37.58\00:23:38.91
and to me, the
situation with John the Baptist
00:23:38.95\00:23:42.25
inside of
Elizabeth's body when Elizabeth
00:23:42.28\00:23:45.02
ran into Mary and
they met each other,
00:23:45.05\00:23:47.82
and it says that "the
babe leaped in her womb,"
00:23:47.86\00:23:50.93
and it says, "for joy."
00:23:50.96\00:23:52.79
For joy... that shows
me that was a happy camper!
00:23:52.83\00:23:56.63
That was a happy little
guy, little Johnny that was
00:23:56.67\00:23:59.57
inside there... and
that's the Word of God.
00:23:59.60\00:24:03.61
And to say that, "Well,
he wasn't really a person,
00:24:03.64\00:24:06.17
or he wasn't really a
soul until he came out,"
00:24:06.21\00:24:08.71
you know, to me, it
just doesn't make sense.
00:24:08.74\00:24:11.18
Someone that I work
with told me recently that
00:24:11.21\00:24:13.75
there was one situation where
there was an ultrasound done
00:24:13.78\00:24:15.72
on twins, 2 little girls
that were inside the mommy,
00:24:15.75\00:24:20.96
and that the ultrasound
showed them holding hands
00:24:20.99\00:24:24.76
together inside and
then when they were born,
00:24:24.79\00:24:28.20
it wasn't long after
that when they were together,
00:24:28.23\00:24:30.83
you know, lying
next to each other,
00:24:30.87\00:24:32.20
and they're holding hands still.
00:24:32.23\00:24:34.04
And it was just so
touching and I think to myself,
00:24:34.07\00:24:36.84
"These little girls, once
they eventually got names,
00:24:36.87\00:24:40.04
maybe they had been
named before they came out,
00:24:40.08\00:24:43.35
it's them there and it's
them there whether they're in
00:24:43.38\00:24:47.62
or whether they're out,
it's those little girls. Yes
00:24:47.65\00:24:50.69
And, I mean, my
little boy was my little boy;
00:24:50.72\00:24:53.32
when he was inside, we talked
to Seth before he came out.
00:24:53.36\00:24:56.46
We talked to Abby and
it just doesn't make sense
00:24:56.49\00:25:00.53
to me logically and biblically
and we'll look in the next
00:25:00.56\00:25:04.50
program, scientifically,
that a person is a person
00:25:04.53\00:25:08.24
when they're inside and
then when they come out,
00:25:08.27\00:25:11.51
they're just developing more.
00:25:11.54\00:25:13.98
Yes, yes, yes - from conception.
00:25:14.01\00:25:17.01
As we've seen in
Scripture, it was the Lord who
00:25:17.05\00:25:19.85
established our
value, made in His image
00:25:19.88\00:25:21.68
and, hopefully, we'll begin
to accept that as a people.
00:25:21.72\00:25:25.69
Right, all Christians
need to really understand that.
00:25:25.72\00:25:28.72
We need to look and
see what the Bible says and
00:25:28.76\00:25:30.46
we need to be aware of
different interpretations,
00:25:30.49\00:25:34.20
but we need to look
to the Bible ourselves
00:25:34.23\00:25:36.70
to see what saith the Lord. Yes
00:25:36.73\00:25:38.43
And, to me, it's just so clear
this passage again in Psalm 139.
00:25:38.47\00:25:44.64
As I mentioned, I have a
friend of mine that we were
00:25:44.67\00:25:46.91
dialoging about this
and I showed him this text,
00:25:46.94\00:25:50.38
and he didn't have a good
answer that this was not David
00:25:50.41\00:25:55.72
when he was there
growing inside of his mother.
00:25:55.75\00:26:00.02
And so, may God help
us to stick with His Word,
00:26:00.06\00:26:06.49
and as we wrap up this program,
again just want to zero in
00:26:06.53\00:26:10.03
on Psalm 139:13-14; we
started with these verses
00:26:10.07\00:26:14.47
and these are just so clear.
00:26:14.50\00:26:17.44
David said about God, he said,
"You formed my inward parts.
00:26:17.47\00:26:24.48
You covered or wove
me in my mother's womb.
00:26:24.51\00:26:31.02
I will praise You for I am
fearfully and wonderfully made.
00:26:31.05\00:26:37.46
Marvelous are your works,
00:26:37.49\00:26:40.93
and that my soul
knows very well."
00:26:40.96\00:26:45.70
God wants us to know this.
00:26:45.73\00:26:47.37
He wants us to know His Word.
00:26:47.40\00:26:49.44
He wants us to know that
He formed you, He formed me,
00:26:49.47\00:26:52.97
He formed us all way
back inside the womb.
00:26:53.01\00:26:56.08
It's a miracle of life.
It's a miracle of procreation.
00:26:56.11\00:26:59.41
There's no comparison, really,
in anything in the world to
00:26:59.45\00:27:05.22
the formation of a
human being inside the body.
00:27:05.25\00:27:10.13
And, God values us, He loves us.
00:27:10.16\00:27:11.99
He created us. He formed us.
00:27:12.03\00:27:13.36
He has an eternal
plan for our lives.
00:27:13.40\00:27:15.70
He has an eternal plan for YOU!
00:27:15.73\00:27:17.60
And we want you to know
that God and to find happiness
00:27:17.63\00:27:21.10
in the fact that He loves you
00:27:21.14\00:27:22.97
and He has an
eternal plan for your life.
00:27:23.00\00:27:25.64
Dianne Wagner
and Antoinette Duck
00:27:25.67\00:27:27.88
share powerful life-changing
information in this
00:27:27.91\00:27:30.51
13-part series, "The
Abortion Controversy"
00:27:30.55\00:27:34.08
To order this 6-1/2
hour DVD set for only $34.95,
00:27:34.12\00:27:38.15
call the following:
00:27:38.19\00:27:45.69
Or you can write
to the following:
00:27:45.73\00:27:51.70
Or order online at
www.whitehorsemedia.com
00:27:51.73\00:27:56.44
If you have been
blessed by today's program,
00:27:56.47\00:27:58.71
and would like to help
"White Horse Media" with
00:27:58.74\00:28:00.51
your financial support, you
can call our toll free number
00:28:00.54\00:28:04.18
listed on the screen or donate
online at whitehorsemedia.com
00:28:04.21\00:28:07.78