Participants: Karen Pierson & Pierre Quinn (Host)
Series Code: SOR
Program Code: SOR000013A
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00:21 Hello, I'm Karen Pearson and I'm here again today
00:24 with my co-host and friend, Pierre Quinn. 00:27 Hi, Pierre, how are you? I'm good, Karen, thanks. 00:29 Good, good. 00:30 We're both here to bring you 00:32 another episode of Stones of Remembrance, 00:35 the program where we visit 00:36 and with one of your favorite authors 00:38 and look at something of their life's experiences 00:41 that helped to shape them, 00:43 and the message found in their books. 00:45 So often as we pass through life's rivers 00:48 and difficult times just as Joshua did, 00:51 when leading the children of Israel through the Jordan, 00:54 we can often meet some unexpected blessings 00:56 that will determine the future direction of our lives. 00:59 Before I introduce you to today's guest, 01:01 I'd like to read something for you, from the word. 01:05 This is taken from 1 Corinthians 1:30. 01:11 "But of Him you are in Christ, 01:15 Who became for us wisdom from God 01:17 and righteousness, and sanctification 01:21 and redemption." 01:24 Please would you welcome with me today's guest, 01:28 Pastor Karl Haffner. 01:30 Welcome, Karl. Thank you. 01:32 Great to be here. It's good to have you here. 01:35 Karl, you are the senior pastor 01:38 of the Kettering Seventh-day Adventist Church 01:40 and you have been there for seven years now. 01:44 Tell us a little bit about that. 01:46 Where did you go there from? 01:48 Well, I moved from Walla Walla, Washington, Eastern Washington. 01:52 Moved to Ohio, never thought I would end of living in Ohio. 01:58 It is different than the northwest, 02:01 of course, in the northwest you have beautiful mountains 02:04 and in Ohio it's, as I often say it's so flat 02:08 I can watch my dog runway for six weeks. 02:11 It's flat. 02:12 It's different, but we love Ohio. 02:14 It's a great place. Yeah. 02:17 You have offered many books over the years, Karl. 02:22 How many books have you written? 02:24 Oh, I think 10, 11. Ten books? 02:27 That's pretty good, that's pretty good. 02:31 And I think some of your, your titles are just... 02:34 You have this really quirky sense of humor. 02:37 I'm not sure if anyone's ever mentioned that. 02:41 "Out of the Hot Tub" 02:43 I know is one of them, you know. 02:45 And just some "Caught Between Two Worlds" 02:49 is another one. 02:50 Some great books 02:52 but the book that we want to look at today is, 02:55 "Are You More Spiritual Than a 5th Grader?" 02:59 Great title, isn't that a great title? 03:02 "Are You More Spiritual Than a 5th Grader?" 03:04 And your daughter helped with this project, 03:08 your youngest daughter, Claire. 03:10 She worked with you on this project. 03:12 So could you tell us a little bit about 03:15 what it took to involve her in the project? 03:18 Well, that was not easy to involve her. 03:22 It's really a remaking of Morris Venden sermons 03:29 and she happened to be in kindergarten. 03:33 Her teacher was Morris Venden's daughter-in-law, Marge Venden. 03:37 So there was that hook 03:40 that she felt like she wanted to do that. 03:44 A connection. Yeah. 03:45 Wanted to do that, and it, 03:48 it was a little dicey through the whole journey 03:52 and then when the book came out, 03:53 they put a picture of her and me on the cover. 03:56 And of course, I have no say on cover design. 04:01 Yeah. And she just went ballistic. 04:04 "Get my picture off the cover." 04:06 "I don't want my picture." 04:09 And I said, "Sweetheart, 04:10 I'm sorry but it's been published 04:15 and I didn't have anything to do with the cover." 04:18 "Oh, well, tell them to re-published it." 04:21 It really doesn't work that way. 04:23 The only thing that finally brought Claire some comfort was 04:27 big sister in the backseat chimed in the conversation 04:30 and said "Claire, Claire, relax. 04:32 You just got to remember. This is the book by dad. 04:35 It's not like many people will buy it." 04:37 So that helped. So that helped calm the nerves. 04:41 So if she did not want her face public, 04:44 she is fairly shy. 04:47 But, you know I, from when she was very young, 04:51 I read through the entire Bible to her at night 04:54 and she's always had such a beautiful sensitive, 04:58 spiritual core and so in that sense, 05:03 I think she very much wanted to be involved in, 05:08 in the project but at that age, you know... 05:14 I know, yeah. It's hard. 05:17 And I think the reason 05:18 she didn't want her picture there is because it's... 05:21 we started the book when she was in fifth grade. 05:24 "Are You More Spiritual Than a 5th Grader?" 05:27 And by the time it came out, 05:29 it took a couple of years to write, 05:31 she was in seventh grade, 05:32 which is vastly different than being in the fifth grade. 05:35 And so that was I think embarrassing, 05:38 but my friends tell me, 05:41 "Someday she'll thank you for all of that." 05:44 Yes, she will. We'll see. 05:45 You mentioned Morris Venden. 05:47 You said the book is based on his, his sermons. 05:50 You actually list him 05:51 as one of your favorite preachers in the book. 05:54 Tells us a little bit about him and about how his ministry 05:57 has impacted you and your family? 05:58 And really that takes me back me, Pierre, to fifth grade. 06:01 And even earlier. Also, fifth grade. 06:03 Yeah, also fifth grader, 06:05 so you have that sort of connection with the title, 06:08 but when I was in grade school, 06:12 my friends collected baseball cards 06:14 or coins or stamps, not me. 06:17 I collected sermon tapes. 06:19 You remember the old cassette technology. 06:21 I had a trunk full, hundreds of tapes 06:26 from my favorite preacher, C.D. Brooks and Roland Hegstad, 06:30 I loved him. 06:32 But my favorite was Morris Venden. 06:34 I just loved his stories, I loved his voice, 06:39 I loved his theology, 06:41 because even though I had dozens of tapes, 06:44 he really only had one sermon. 06:46 Yeah. 06:47 And the simplicity, the power behind that message. 06:50 So powerful and so simple, you are right. 06:52 And what's the essence? 06:54 What's the essence of his preaching? 06:55 A friendship with Jesus. It's all about Jesus. 06:58 Righteousness by Faith in Christ 07:01 and it's all about a daily, intimate connection with Jesus. 07:06 And I think that is so foundational 07:10 to spiritual life and faith. 07:12 Now, we're talking a couple decades ago, right? 07:16 We are probably about the same age, Karl, so... 07:18 When I was in fifth grade, 07:20 no it was more than a couple of decades 07:22 but thank you if you think that. 07:27 The message of Righteousness by Faith, 07:30 at that point in our church's history. 07:35 Talk to us about how important do you think 07:38 Morris call to preach that message 07:40 at that time was for our church. 07:43 Yeah, it was very gutsy and in writing this book 07:47 and really it's a repackaging of a Week of Prayer 07:52 that he did it at Andrews University 07:54 back in 1975. 07:56 And so this past fall, it's the 40 year anniversary, 08:02 this year of that week of prayer. 08:06 I went back to Andrews 08:08 and presented same sermon, same theme song. 08:13 Just kind of a retro revival, 08:15 because to this day I've had dozens of people 08:20 who remembered just how life transforming 08:22 that Week of Prayer was. 08:25 And, you know, back then it was just, 08:29 yeah, it was very refreshing and different from, 08:35 you know, maybe mainline religion as it was presented 08:41 that, that, know it really is this simple, 08:44 that Jesus wants to have a relationship with you 08:48 and that is the heart of faith. 08:50 Why do you think it is that we make it so complicated? 08:54 Yeah. 08:57 Especially for kids to understand too. 09:00 Yeah. And we all do it. 09:02 I think it's a common, it's a shared story, isn't it? 09:05 Yeah, it really is. Why do you think it is? 09:07 There is a certain security in externals to know 09:10 who's in, who's out, based on what you do 09:15 or how you act or what you eat or, 09:17 you know, some of these things provide a certain security 09:21 that we can see where the boundaries are 09:24 and it's, it's black and white where relationships are grey. 09:29 They are messy. Wow. 09:31 Yeah. 09:33 I always say, it's easier to follow a set of rules... 09:37 ...than it is to engage in a relationship. 09:39 Exactly. 09:41 For the very fact that relationships are messy, 09:43 but life is messy. 09:45 But we want to keep it neat and tidy. 09:47 Don't we? Yeah. 09:48 What would you say to someone 09:50 who is dealing with the nasty mess right now, 09:53 and just needed some reinsurance 09:55 that it, it does happen to all of us 09:57 and it's okay, hang in there. 09:59 That there is, that there is a God in Jesus Christ, 10:03 who wants to go through those messy chapters with you, 10:07 who will never forsake you. 10:09 Who is there, even though he feels distant or aloof 10:14 or so painfully silent at times 10:19 that the heart of Christ is, 10:22 "I want to be with you." 10:24 You know, I stand at the door and knock. 10:26 "And if you would just open the door. 10:29 No heavy agenda. 10:31 I just want to be with you 10:33 and I want to eat with you as friends, 10:35 and I want to do this daily." 10:38 And so often we get so busy 10:42 that the most important piece of spiritual life, 10:47 which is that connection with Christ, doesn't happen. 10:52 You know, we are guilty is that-- 10:54 of that even as pastors too... 10:56 To even as, especially as pastors, don't you think? 10:58 Yeah. Yeah. Wow. 11:01 Now we are looking, if we are honest 11:03 and you are talking about the Week of Prayer 11:05 that was the essence of which you are presenting in the book. 11:08 We sometimes have mismanage expectations 11:13 about Weeks of Prayer, 11:15 about the outcomes of them and even about reading a book. 11:18 Can you point out 11:19 some of what those mismanage expectations are? 11:22 Elder Venden, in that Week of Prayer 11:25 talks about some of these expectations. 11:29 So at the conclusion of the week, he said, 11:32 "We're not going to have some altar call 11:36 where you're going to burn, 11:38 remember the old day LPs or the rock albums or... 11:41 We're not calling you to do anything other than 11:46 to spend time each day in communion with Jesus. 11:51 If you'll just do that, like I said, 11:53 I've had many, many people, 40 years later 11:57 tell me that that was the most life changing Week of Prayer. 12:03 And he talks in that week about how ineffective 12:08 Weeks of Prayer tend to be in our spiritual journey, 12:12 saying that they've done surveys and if anything, 12:16 they can be often be even detrimental 12:20 to one's spiritual journey, 12:22 because, you know, it's easy to get the sense of, 12:26 "Okay, at the end of the Week of Prayer. 12:28 Okay, now I'm, I've got, I'm going to do good, 12:33 I'm going to do good." "I'm back of track." 12:34 "I'm back on track." 12:36 Okay, and then that lasts for a day 12:38 or may be a week if we've got of willpower, 12:40 and we fall, and then the best we can do 12:43 is sort of wait until the next week of prayer. 12:46 So he was not calling for behavioral modification 12:52 but rather a relational reality with Christ 12:56 as the response to the Week of Prayer. 12:59 And so as you would guess, 13:01 at the end of this last Week of Prayer at Andrews 13:03 that I did that was my appeal that just each day, 13:09 spend time with Jesus. 13:11 Start there. 13:12 And it's tough, especially in our microwave, 13:15 instant message society. 13:17 We want it to happen fast. 13:19 We want that transformation to happen fast. 13:22 So saying it's going to take time 13:23 in developing new routine, sometimes it's discouraging. 13:27 Yeah, and you don't microwave deep intimate relationships. 13:31 You can't do intimacy in a hurry, you can't. 13:35 Intimacy is not instant. It is not. 13:37 That's right. Yeah, yeah. 13:39 We know that from being married, it's not. 13:41 That's true. Yeah. 13:42 It takes time. It does take time. 13:44 But how incredible because you have, 13:48 you come to the end of that and you have a shared story. 13:51 Yeah. 13:52 And isn't that what intimacy is? Yeah. 13:54 It is a shared story. That's exactly right. 13:56 Yeah, yeah. 13:59 I know that many of you 14:00 will have read many of Karl's books. 14:04 This is going to be one that you don't want to miss. 14:07 "Are You More Spiritual Than a 5th Grader?" 14:10 Take and listen for a moment and you'll find out 14:12 how you can order your very own copy. 14:14 Don't go away, we'll be right back. 14:16 Thank you. 14:18 "Are You More Spiritual Than a 5th Grader?" 14:20 is such a great question. 14:22 During a Week of Prayer at Andrews University in 1975, 14:26 Elder Morris Venden delivered a life changing message 14:29 to the students gathered there, 14:31 about the importance of having 14:33 a daily living connection with Jesus. 14:36 Now Karl Haffner and his daughter, Claire, 14:38 team up to repackage Venden's classic message 14:42 of Righteousness by Faith. 14:44 40 years later, that precious message 14:47 is still needed as much today as it was then. 14:51 "Are You More Spiritual Than a 5th Grader?" 14:53 has been updated and expanded 14:56 but clearly preserves Morris Venden's legacy, 14:59 that in Jesus we have righteousness and salvation. 15:02 Get your copy by calling 1800-765-6955. 15:08 Stop by your local Adventist Book Center 15:11 or order online at AdventistBookCenter.com. 15:16 Welcome back. 15:18 We are here today chatting with our friend, 15:20 Pastor Karl Haffner. 15:22 And Karl, I want to ask you, 15:25 how has your experience with Jesus, 15:27 you speak about this daily experience with Jesus, 15:32 how has that impacted 15:34 your middle of the river experiences in life 15:37 because we all have those moments, don't we? 15:39 Yeah, well, this is definitely been the most life changing 15:44 writing project I've ever done. 15:47 And it just listening to all those old sermons. 15:54 Morris' son, Lee gave them to me 15:57 and this past year, at our church in Kettering, 16:00 I did one year sermon series called "Speaking of Jesus," 16:05 and the invitation was for all of us 16:09 to be a part of the covenant 16:11 where we were going to just spend time, 16:14 every morning reading one chapter 16:17 of one of the gospels. 16:20 And we did that, you know, 16:21 day after day to just build a friendship with Jesus. 16:25 The idea was not to get through the gospels 16:28 five times in a year, which we did. 16:31 Or even necessarily to learn about 16:35 Jesus or Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. 16:38 The idea was to just spend time 16:42 building a personal friendship with Jesus. 16:47 And for me, personally, it's, it's just been, 16:53 it's been a major game changer. 16:56 And the primary idea that I took out 17:00 of that Week of Prayer and in writing the book was... 17:06 for years I preached that it's not about trying real hard 17:10 but it's about training. 17:12 And this book has helped me see that that, 17:17 well, not untrue, 17:21 is perhaps not really complete there, you know. 17:24 And again, for years, it'd be, we try real hard to be good, 17:29 but we were not changed by trying real hard, 17:33 we're changed by entering into a life of training. 17:37 You know, Paul says, 17:38 I put my body into strict training 17:40 so that I can win the race. 17:43 And so through the spiritual disciplines of prayer 17:47 and Bible study and these activities that catapult us 17:50 into the presence of God, He then lives within us 17:54 and changes our desires and He changes us. 17:59 But what this has really helped me to see is that 18:05 ultimately even training can be a type of trying that, 18:12 and so what I have come to believe 18:15 that scripture teaches on this is, 18:17 it's not certainly about trying, 18:21 that it's all about Christ and His righteousness. 18:26 And it's not only about training, 18:30 although training is important. 18:33 Ultimately, I believe it's all about trusting. 18:37 Trusting my friend Jesus, 18:40 that the work of transformation is His work 18:47 and He will do this 18:48 and this is what Morris was preaching back in the 70s. 18:52 That most people say 18:55 it's all the work of Christ's justification. 19:00 We're saved by grace and Christ alone 19:04 and some day, glorification, when we go to heaven. 19:07 We love our big words don't we? Oh, yeah. Yeah. We do. 19:09 When we are transported from this earth to the next, 19:12 we, we all pretty much agree we're okay with that, 19:16 that that's the work of Christ. 19:18 I can't wing my way to heaven, no matter how good I am. 19:22 Can't save myself, not justify. 19:26 But that middle season of salvation, 19:28 sanctification or transformation 19:31 or becoming more and more like Jesus. 19:34 Well, yeah, that's the work of faith in Christ, 19:38 but its effort as well, right? 19:40 There's got to be something that I do with that. 19:45 And I've come to this settled place 19:48 in my own spiritual journey, no. 19:51 Even the act of transformation, 19:55 of becoming more like Jesus, sanctification. 19:59 I ultimately just needed to trust 20:02 that, that is the work of Christ as much 20:04 and that was so liberating to me. 20:08 Amen, amen. Trust, that's a key issue. 20:12 Do I trust Jesus to meet my needs? 20:15 My need to change 20:17 because that is one of our greatest needs 20:19 and perhaps one we don't always recognize. 20:21 Yes. But it is one of our greatest needs. 20:23 Do I trust Jesus? 20:25 Karl, I love following you on Facebook 20:28 and a couple months back, you posted a question, 20:31 which you would often do, to get responses from, 20:34 from your members and from other people. 20:37 And the question you posted was, 20:38 "What are you hungry for?" 20:40 Or something along those lines. 20:41 Yeah, yeah. 20:43 And isn't that what it is, isn't that where it's at? 20:46 We are hungry for Jesus. 20:49 And we don't always recognize that. 20:51 Yeah, that's exactly right. 20:54 And this hunger can only be satisfied 21:01 in eating the living bread. 21:04 Morris Venden used to tell a wonderful story 21:06 and I heard him share it 21:09 at workers' meeting as a young pastor. 21:11 And now Lee, his son is sharing this story 21:15 freely of visiting his aunt Edna, 21:18 who would bake this wonderful bread. 21:21 So he would come as a youngster 21:23 and he'd eat this, this bread and he'd say, 21:27 "Can you imagine how cool it would have been 21:30 had we visited Aunt Edna 21:33 and she make us watch her eat this bread, you know, 21:37 the wonderful aroma wafting through the house, you know." 21:41 But no, we knew that she would have home-made preserves 21:45 to slather on the fresh breads, steaming hot out of the oven 21:49 and we loved visiting Aunt Edna, 21:53 but then what Morris Venden would challenge pastors with 21:56 was to say, you know, it's not enough to just feed 22:03 Church members once a week 22:06 with wonderful bread of life with, 22:09 you know, messages about Jesus is as important as that is. 22:13 He said it would have been a lot better 22:15 had Aunt Edna given us the recipe, 22:17 so that we could bake bread for ourselves. 22:20 And eat it everyday. And eat it everyday. 22:23 And the reality is he'd say to preachers, 22:27 "If your people aren't eating, 22:28 if you're not giving them the recipe..." 22:31 That's good stuff. 22:32 "That is a disaster, because people will die. 22:37 It's unhealthy if they're not eating 22:40 and people get really grouchy when they get hungry. 22:43 I know I do. Right? I do. 22:45 Yeah. 22:46 Maybe that's part of the problem 22:48 in relationship between church members? 22:51 Absolutely, that we're, 22:53 we're obsessed with doing church. 22:57 The music or you know, 22:59 what time the services are and... 23:02 What color the carpet is. 23:03 How we do church on Saturday morning 23:04 in this concert or rather than being the church, 23:08 which is just a living out 23:10 of a daily relationship with Jesus. 23:13 Being light, being salt 23:15 and you know, this is all part of this growing 23:21 daily relationship with Jesus. 23:23 I, I like that point, Karl. 23:24 We become so busy doing that we forget the being part of it. 23:29 It's hard to be still, isn't it? 23:31 It's very hard. 23:32 I think it's part of human nature 23:33 that we feel we have to get involved and do something. 23:35 And yeah, yeah, we do. 23:39 Unfortunately, we are out of time. 23:42 No. Not already. Well, yeah. 23:43 We are almost at the end but we want you to speak 23:45 to the heart of the people who are watching the program. 23:49 Many of us are struggling with this idea that phrase, 23:51 "Having a personal relationship with Jesus." 23:54 For some of us, it's a complete mystery. 23:56 How do I start? Where do I begin? 23:58 Does Jesus even want to have a relationship 24:01 with someone like me? 24:03 For a few moments, 24:04 just speak to the heart of our viewers. 24:05 How can we get started 24:07 in this personal relationship with Jesus? 24:09 Well, I think it starts with... 24:11 Morris Venden used to talk about a three legged stool 24:15 and Lee Venden talks a lot about that, 24:19 and it's Bible study prayer and serving, serving others, 24:24 sharing Jesus with others. 24:26 So I think that's critical to any relationship with Christ 24:31 and a relationship with Jesus 24:34 works like relationships with anybody, 24:38 it just, it takes time and there's times 24:42 when you go through darker chapters 24:45 where you feel distant 24:46 and it doesn't seem to be working as well as other times. 24:51 And that's okay. 24:53 You keep coming back to faith, is what I would say 24:56 because at the heart, 24:59 religion and spirituality and faith. 25:02 It's not about behaving for God 25:05 and a lot of times we get this so goofed up 25:07 and junked up in our thinking 25:09 that if I just stop doing this or start doing that, 25:13 it's not about behaving for God 25:16 and I would say it's not even about believing in God, 25:19 even the devils believe in God. 25:22 At the core, it's all about being with God. 25:26 So my appeal to viewers would be, 25:29 be with God, everyday. 25:31 Jesus stands at the door and knock. 25:33 He wants to come in and be with you. 25:38 So, prayer, Bible study, and service to others. 25:44 It's nothing new. It's... 25:45 We heard it before. We've heard it before. 25:48 But, Karl do you think that's part of the problem? 25:50 It could well be, huh. 25:52 You know sometime the things that are so familiar to us, 25:55 they seem to lose their edge, 25:57 they seem to lose their importance, don't they? 25:59 what do you think can help us, remind us and bring us 26:03 back there to that place, to that hunger? 26:06 Brings us back to hunger, what are we hungry for? 26:09 And I, and I think it is important 26:11 to make intentional decisions, that I am going 26:15 and that's why it felt a little prescriptive 26:18 to say to the church, 26:20 "Look, we are just gonna spend time everyday." 26:23 Well, a lot of studies suggest 26:25 church members are not taking that time. 26:28 And so it's elementary as it might sound 26:31 and while, I didn't want it to be prescriptive 26:35 or how-to list to boil it down 26:38 to that at the same time, 26:41 how else do you build relationships? 26:43 Amen, Karl. 26:44 When you are spending time with the person you love. 26:47 Got to you stop you there. Okay. 26:48 We've been having a conversation 26:49 with Karl Haffner about his book, 26:51 "Are You More Spiritual Than a 5th Grader?" 26:53 This has been another episode of "Stones of Remembrance." 26:55 I'm Pierre Quinn and for Karen Pearson. 26:57 we'll see you next time. 26:59 Take care. 27:29 Opportunities in Franklin County, Minnesota, 27:32 were very limited in 1861. 27:34 For the Rouse brothers, 27:36 the West seemed the best option. 27:38 But would they have continued West, 27:40 had they known of the uncharted territories, 27:43 rugged cowboys, hostile Indians, 27:45 and violent outlaws that they would counter along the way? 27:48 The story of Elisha Rouse, 27:50 one of the original settlers of Bozeman, Montana, 27:53 reads like a work of fiction, but the story is all true. 27:58 He learned to survive in a hostile environment 28:00 of the western frontier. 28:02 But he learned something else, 28:04 something far more important, along the way. 28:07 Montana Bullwhacker is a youth sharing book 28:09 and quantity pricing is available. 28:12 To get your copy of "Montana Bullwhacker" 28:14 sharing edition, call 1-800-765-6955. 28:20 Stop by your local Adventist Book Center 28:22 or order online at AdventistBookCenter.com |
Revised 2015-12-03