Hello, I'm Karen
Pearson and I'm here again today
00:00:21.65\00:00:24.95
with my co-host and
friend, Pierre Quinn.
00:00:24.99\00:00:27.12
Hi, Pierre, how are
you? I'm good, Karen, thanks.
00:00:27.16\00:00:29.36
Good, good.
00:00:29.39\00:00:30.73
We're both here to bring you
00:00:30.76\00:00:32.33
another episode of
Stones of Remembrance,
00:00:32.36\00:00:35.26
the program where we visit
00:00:35.30\00:00:36.63
and with one of
your favorite authors
00:00:36.67\00:00:38.33
and look at something
of their life's experiences
00:00:38.37\00:00:41.04
that helped to shape them,
00:00:41.07\00:00:42.97
and the message
found in their books.
00:00:43.00\00:00:45.34
So often as we pass
through life's rivers
00:00:45.37\00:00:48.48
and difficult
times just as Joshua did,
00:00:48.51\00:00:51.48
when leading the children
of Israel through the Jordan,
00:00:51.51\00:00:54.38
we can often meet
some unexpected blessings
00:00:54.42\00:00:56.58
that will determine the
future direction of our lives.
00:00:56.62\00:00:59.89
Before I introduce
you to today's guest,
00:00:59.92\00:01:01.96
I'd like to read something
for you, from the word.
00:01:01.99\00:01:05.59
This is taken from
1 Corinthians 1:30.
00:01:05.63\00:01:11.70
"But of Him you are in Christ,
00:01:11.73\00:01:15.00
Who became for
us wisdom from God
00:01:15.04\00:01:17.71
and righteousness,
and sanctification
00:01:17.74\00:01:21.31
and redemption."
00:01:21.34\00:01:24.85
Please would you
welcome with me today's guest,
00:01:24.88\00:01:28.62
Pastor Karl Haffner.
00:01:28.65\00:01:30.65
Welcome, Karl. Thank you.
00:01:30.69\00:01:32.72
Great to be here.
It's good to have you here.
00:01:32.75\00:01:35.79
Karl, you are the senior pastor
00:01:35.82\00:01:38.26
of the Kettering
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:01:38.29\00:01:40.30
and you have been
there for seven years now.
00:01:40.33\00:01:44.03
Tell us a little bit about that.
00:01:44.07\00:01:46.67
Where did you go there from?
00:01:46.70\00:01:48.30
Well, I moved from Walla Walla,
Washington, Eastern Washington.
00:01:48.34\00:01:52.91
Moved to Ohio, never thought
I would end of living in Ohio.
00:01:52.94\00:01:58.21
It is different
than the northwest,
00:01:58.25\00:02:01.12
of course, in the northwest
you have beautiful mountains
00:02:01.15\00:02:04.89
and in Ohio it's, as
I often say it's so flat
00:02:04.92\00:02:08.52
I can watch my dog
runway for six weeks.
00:02:08.56\00:02:11.43
It's flat.
00:02:11.46\00:02:12.83
It's different,
but we love Ohio.
00:02:12.86\00:02:14.60
It's a great place. Yeah.
00:02:14.63\00:02:17.93
You have offered many
books over the years, Karl.
00:02:17.97\00:02:22.00
How many books have you written?
00:02:22.04\00:02:24.44
Oh, I think 10, 11. Ten books?
00:02:24.47\00:02:27.58
That's pretty
good, that's pretty good.
00:02:27.61\00:02:31.08
And I think some of
your, your titles are just...
00:02:31.11\00:02:34.65
You have this really
quirky sense of humor.
00:02:34.68\00:02:37.19
I'm not sure if
anyone's ever mentioned that.
00:02:37.22\00:02:41.76
"Out of the Hot Tub"
00:02:41.79\00:02:43.12
I know is one of them, you know.
00:02:43.16\00:02:45.93
And just some
"Caught Between Two Worlds"
00:02:45.96\00:02:49.03
is another one.
00:02:49.06\00:02:50.40
Some great books
00:02:50.43\00:02:52.00
but the book that we
want to look at today is,
00:02:52.03\00:02:55.90
"Are You More
Spiritual Than a 5th Grader?"
00:02:55.94\00:02:59.57
Great title, isn't
that a great title?
00:02:59.61\00:03:02.14
"Are You More
Spiritual Than a 5th Grader?"
00:03:02.18\00:03:04.65
And your daughter
helped with this project,
00:03:04.68\00:03:08.08
your youngest daughter, Claire.
00:03:08.12\00:03:10.65
She worked with
you on this project.
00:03:10.69\00:03:12.82
So could you tell
us a little bit about
00:03:12.85\00:03:15.86
what it took to
involve her in the project?
00:03:15.89\00:03:18.66
Well, that was not
easy to involve her.
00:03:18.69\00:03:22.83
It's really a remaking
of Morris Venden sermons
00:03:22.86\00:03:29.67
and she happened
to be in kindergarten.
00:03:29.70\00:03:33.11
Her teacher was Morris Venden's
daughter-in-law, Marge Venden.
00:03:33.14\00:03:37.95
So there was that hook
00:03:37.98\00:03:40.82
that she felt like
she wanted to do that.
00:03:40.85\00:03:44.22
A connection. Yeah.
00:03:44.25\00:03:45.59
Wanted to do that, and it,
00:03:45.62\00:03:48.79
it was a little dicey
through the whole journey
00:03:48.82\00:03:52.46
and then when the book came out,
00:03:52.49\00:03:53.93
they put a picture of
her and me on the cover.
00:03:53.96\00:03:56.80
And of course, I have
no say on cover design.
00:03:56.83\00:04:01.87
Yeah. And she
just went ballistic.
00:04:01.90\00:04:04.21
"Get my picture off the cover."
00:04:04.24\00:04:06.88
"I don't want my picture."
00:04:06.91\00:04:08.98
And I said, "Sweetheart,
00:04:09.01\00:04:10.58
I'm sorry but
it's been published
00:04:10.61\00:04:15.28
and I didn't have
anything to do with the cover."
00:04:15.32\00:04:18.45
"Oh, well, tell
them to re-published it."
00:04:18.49\00:04:21.26
It really doesn't work that way.
00:04:21.29\00:04:23.49
The only thing that finally
brought Claire some comfort was
00:04:23.53\00:04:27.10
big sister in the backseat
chimed in the conversation
00:04:27.13\00:04:30.50
and said "Claire, Claire, relax.
00:04:30.53\00:04:32.23
You just got to remember.
This is the book by dad.
00:04:32.27\00:04:35.14
It's not like many
people will buy it."
00:04:35.17\00:04:37.37
So that helped. So
that helped calm the nerves.
00:04:37.41\00:04:41.71
So if she did not
want her face public,
00:04:41.74\00:04:44.48
she is fairly shy.
00:04:44.51\00:04:47.02
But, you know I, from
when she was very young,
00:04:47.05\00:04:51.02
I read through the
entire Bible to her at night
00:04:51.05\00:04:54.16
and she's always had
such a beautiful sensitive,
00:04:54.19\00:04:58.79
spiritual core
and so in that sense,
00:04:58.83\00:05:03.93
I think she very much
wanted to be involved in,
00:05:03.97\00:05:08.14
in the project but
at that age, you know...
00:05:08.17\00:05:14.28
I know, yeah. It's hard.
00:05:14.31\00:05:17.11
And I think the reason
00:05:17.15\00:05:18.88
she didn't want her
picture there is because it's...
00:05:18.91\00:05:21.82
we started the book
when she was in fifth grade.
00:05:21.85\00:05:24.25
"Are You More
Spiritual Than a 5th Grader?"
00:05:24.29\00:05:26.99
And by the time it came out,
00:05:27.02\00:05:29.29
it took a couple
of years to write,
00:05:29.32\00:05:31.13
she was in seventh grade,
00:05:31.16\00:05:32.93
which is vastly different
than being in the fifth grade.
00:05:32.96\00:05:35.86
And so that was I
think embarrassing,
00:05:35.90\00:05:38.70
but my friends tell me,
00:05:38.73\00:05:41.24
"Someday she'll
thank you for all of that."
00:05:41.27\00:05:44.34
Yes, she will. We'll see.
00:05:44.37\00:05:45.71
You mentioned Morris Venden.
00:05:45.74\00:05:47.64
You said the book is
based on his, his sermons.
00:05:47.68\00:05:50.51
You actually list him
00:05:50.55\00:05:51.88
as one of your
favorite preachers in the book.
00:05:51.91\00:05:54.15
Tells us a little bit about
him and about how his ministry
00:05:54.18\00:05:56.99
has impacted
you and your family?
00:05:57.02\00:05:58.49
And really that takes me
back me, Pierre, to fifth grade.
00:05:58.52\00:06:01.66
And even earlier.
Also, fifth grade.
00:06:01.69\00:06:03.22
Yeah, also fifth grader,
00:06:03.26\00:06:05.03
so you have that sort of
connection with the title,
00:06:05.06\00:06:08.16
but when I was in grade school,
00:06:08.20\00:06:12.30
my friends
collected baseball cards
00:06:12.33\00:06:14.77
or coins or stamps, not me.
00:06:14.80\00:06:17.24
I collected sermon tapes.
00:06:17.27\00:06:19.27
You remember the
old cassette technology.
00:06:19.31\00:06:21.81
I had a trunk
full, hundreds of tapes
00:06:21.84\00:06:26.38
from my favorite preacher,
C.D. Brooks and Roland Hegstad,
00:06:26.41\00:06:30.89
I loved him.
00:06:30.92\00:06:32.55
But my favorite
was Morris Venden.
00:06:32.59\00:06:34.72
I just loved his
stories, I loved his voice,
00:06:34.76\00:06:39.66
I loved his theology,
00:06:39.69\00:06:41.86
because even though
I had dozens of tapes,
00:06:41.90\00:06:44.33
he really only had one sermon.
00:06:44.37\00:06:46.33
Yeah.
00:06:46.37\00:06:47.70
And the simplicity, the
power behind that message.
00:06:47.74\00:06:50.77
So powerful and so
simple, you are right.
00:06:50.81\00:06:52.81
And what's the essence?
00:06:52.84\00:06:54.18
What's the
essence of his preaching?
00:06:54.21\00:06:55.54
A friendship with
Jesus. It's all about Jesus.
00:06:55.58\00:06:58.05
Righteousness by Faith in Christ
00:06:58.08\00:07:00.98
and it's all about a daily,
intimate connection with Jesus.
00:07:01.02\00:07:06.76
And I think that
is so foundational
00:07:06.79\00:07:10.23
to spiritual life and faith.
00:07:10.26\00:07:12.76
Now, we're talking a
couple decades ago, right?
00:07:12.79\00:07:16.46
We are probably about
the same age, Karl, so...
00:07:16.50\00:07:18.37
When I was in fifth grade,
00:07:18.40\00:07:20.04
no it was more
than a couple of decades
00:07:20.07\00:07:22.44
but thank you if you think that.
00:07:22.47\00:07:26.98
The message of
Righteousness by Faith,
00:07:27.01\00:07:30.88
at that point in
our church's history.
00:07:30.91\00:07:35.78
Talk to us about how
important do you think
00:07:35.82\00:07:38.35
Morris call to
preach that message
00:07:38.39\00:07:40.86
at that time was for our church.
00:07:40.89\00:07:43.69
Yeah, it was very gutsy
and in writing this book
00:07:43.73\00:07:47.66
and really it's a
repackaging of a Week of Prayer
00:07:47.70\00:07:52.83
that he did it at
Andrews University
00:07:52.87\00:07:54.67
back in 1975.
00:07:54.70\00:07:56.71
And so this past fall,
it's the 40 year anniversary,
00:07:56.74\00:08:02.11
this year of
that week of prayer.
00:08:02.14\00:08:04.18
I went back to Andrews
00:08:06.28\00:08:08.48
and presented same
sermon, same theme song.
00:08:08.52\00:08:13.39
Just kind of a retro revival,
00:08:13.42\00:08:15.29
because to this day
I've had dozens of people
00:08:15.32\00:08:20.03
who remembered just
how life transforming
00:08:20.06\00:08:22.93
that Week of Prayer was.
00:08:22.96\00:08:25.40
And, you know,
back then it was just,
00:08:25.43\00:08:29.07
yeah, it was very
refreshing and different from,
00:08:29.10\00:08:35.54
you know, maybe mainline
religion as it was presented
00:08:35.58\00:08:41.32
that, that, know it
really is this simple,
00:08:41.35\00:08:44.95
that Jesus wants to
have a relationship with you
00:08:44.99\00:08:48.86
and that is the heart of faith.
00:08:48.89\00:08:50.96
Why do you think it is
that we make it so complicated?
00:08:50.99\00:08:54.86
Yeah.
00:08:54.90\00:08:57.63
Especially for
kids to understand too.
00:08:57.67\00:08:59.97
Yeah. And we all do it.
00:09:00.00\00:09:01.97
I think it's a common,
it's a shared story, isn't it?
00:09:02.00\00:09:05.47
Yeah, it really is.
Why do you think it is?
00:09:05.51\00:09:07.91
There is a certain
security in externals to know
00:09:07.94\00:09:10.95
who's in, who's
out, based on what you do
00:09:10.98\00:09:14.98
or how you act
or what you eat or,
00:09:15.02\00:09:17.55
you know, some of these things
provide a certain security
00:09:17.59\00:09:21.89
that we can see
where the boundaries are
00:09:21.92\00:09:24.43
and it's, it's black and white
where relationships are grey.
00:09:24.46\00:09:29.30
They are messy. Wow.
00:09:29.33\00:09:31.77
Yeah.
00:09:31.80\00:09:33.13
I always say, it's easier
to follow a set of rules...
00:09:33.17\00:09:37.11
...than it is to
engage in a relationship.
00:09:37.14\00:09:39.64
Exactly.
00:09:39.67\00:09:41.01
For the very fact that
relationships are messy,
00:09:41.04\00:09:43.95
but life is messy.
00:09:43.98\00:09:45.38
But we want to
keep it neat and tidy.
00:09:45.41\00:09:47.42
Don't we? Yeah.
00:09:47.45\00:09:48.78
What would you say to someone
00:09:48.82\00:09:50.15
who is dealing with
the nasty mess right now,
00:09:50.19\00:09:53.46
and just needed some reinsurance
00:09:53.49\00:09:55.89
that it, it does
happen to all of us
00:09:55.92\00:09:57.59
and it's okay, hang in there.
00:09:57.63\00:09:59.49
That there is, that
there is a God in Jesus Christ,
00:09:59.53\00:10:03.40
who wants to go through
those messy chapters with you,
00:10:03.43\00:10:07.30
who will never forsake you.
00:10:07.34\00:10:09.60
Who is there, even
though he feels distant or aloof
00:10:09.64\00:10:14.48
or so painfully silent at times
00:10:14.51\00:10:18.98
that the heart of Christ is,
00:10:19.01\00:10:22.62
"I want to be with you."
00:10:22.65\00:10:24.35
You know, I stand
at the door and knock.
00:10:24.39\00:10:26.89
"And if you would
just open the door.
00:10:26.92\00:10:29.36
No heavy agenda.
00:10:29.39\00:10:31.89
I just want to be with you
00:10:31.93\00:10:33.33
and I want to eat
with you as friends,
00:10:33.36\00:10:35.53
and I want to do this daily."
00:10:35.56\00:10:38.23
And so often we get so busy
00:10:38.27\00:10:41.97
that the most important
piece of spiritual life,
00:10:42.00\00:10:47.01
which is that connection
with Christ, doesn't happen.
00:10:47.04\00:10:52.51
You know, we
are guilty is that--
00:10:52.55\00:10:54.12
of that even as pastors too...
00:10:54.15\00:10:56.42
To even as, especially
as pastors, don't you think?
00:10:56.45\00:10:58.55
Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
00:10:58.59\00:11:01.42
Now we are
looking, if we are honest
00:11:01.46\00:11:03.46
and you are talking
about the Week of Prayer
00:11:03.49\00:11:05.29
that was the essence of which
you are presenting in the book.
00:11:05.33\00:11:08.90
We sometimes have
mismanage expectations
00:11:08.93\00:11:13.13
about Weeks of Prayer,
00:11:13.17\00:11:15.54
about the outcomes of them
and even about reading a book.
00:11:15.57\00:11:18.37
Can you point out
00:11:18.41\00:11:19.74
some of what those
mismanage expectations are?
00:11:19.77\00:11:22.58
Elder Venden, in
that Week of Prayer
00:11:22.61\00:11:25.01
talks about some
of these expectations.
00:11:25.05\00:11:29.15
So at the conclusion
of the week, he said,
00:11:29.18\00:11:32.59
"We're not going to
have some altar call
00:11:32.62\00:11:36.62
where you're going to burn,
00:11:36.66\00:11:37.99
remember the old day
LPs or the rock albums or...
00:11:38.03\00:11:40.96
We're not calling you
to do anything other than
00:11:41.00\00:11:46.17
to spend time each day
in communion with Jesus.
00:11:46.20\00:11:51.34
If you'll just do
that, like I said,
00:11:51.37\00:11:53.78
I've had many, many
people, 40 years later
00:11:53.81\00:11:57.41
tell me that that was the most
life changing Week of Prayer.
00:11:57.45\00:12:03.69
And he talks in that
week about how ineffective
00:12:03.72\00:12:08.02
Weeks of Prayer tend to
be in our spiritual journey,
00:12:08.06\00:12:12.36
saying that they've
done surveys and if anything,
00:12:12.39\00:12:16.50
they can be often
be even detrimental
00:12:16.53\00:12:20.57
to one's spiritual journey,
00:12:20.60\00:12:22.44
because, you know, it's
easy to get the sense of,
00:12:22.47\00:12:26.68
"Okay, at the end
of the Week of Prayer.
00:12:26.71\00:12:28.54
Okay, now I'm, I've
got, I'm going to do good,
00:12:28.58\00:12:33.05
I'm going to do
good." "I'm back of track."
00:12:33.08\00:12:34.68
"I'm back on track."
00:12:34.72\00:12:36.05
Okay, and then
that lasts for a day
00:12:36.08\00:12:38.02
or may be a week if
we've got of willpower,
00:12:38.05\00:12:40.79
and we fall, and
then the best we can do
00:12:40.82\00:12:43.29
is sort of wait until
the next week of prayer.
00:12:43.32\00:12:46.16
So he was not calling
for behavioral modification
00:12:46.19\00:12:52.60
but rather a
relational reality with Christ
00:12:52.63\00:12:56.74
as the response to
the Week of Prayer.
00:12:56.77\00:12:59.04
And so as you would guess,
00:12:59.07\00:13:01.31
at the end of this last
Week of Prayer at Andrews
00:13:01.34\00:13:03.91
that I did that was my
appeal that just each day,
00:13:03.95\00:13:09.38
spend time with Jesus.
00:13:09.42\00:13:11.12
Start there.
00:13:11.15\00:13:12.49
And it's tough,
especially in our microwave,
00:13:12.52\00:13:15.39
instant message society.
00:13:15.42\00:13:17.33
We want it to happen fast.
00:13:17.36\00:13:19.53
We want that
transformation to happen fast.
00:13:19.56\00:13:22.10
So saying it's
going to take time
00:13:22.13\00:13:23.70
in developing new routine,
sometimes it's discouraging.
00:13:23.73\00:13:27.47
Yeah, and you don't microwave
deep intimate relationships.
00:13:27.50\00:13:31.61
You can't do intimacy
in a hurry, you can't.
00:13:31.64\00:13:35.01
Intimacy is not
instant. It is not.
00:13:35.04\00:13:37.71
That's right. Yeah, yeah.
00:13:37.75\00:13:39.61
We know that from
being married, it's not.
00:13:39.65\00:13:41.35
That's true. Yeah.
00:13:41.38\00:13:42.72
It takes time.
It does take time.
00:13:42.75\00:13:44.92
But how
incredible because you have,
00:13:44.95\00:13:47.99
you come to the end of that
and you have a shared story.
00:13:48.02\00:13:51.23
Yeah.
00:13:51.26\00:13:52.59
And isn't that
what intimacy is? Yeah.
00:13:52.63\00:13:54.30
It is a shared
story. That's exactly right.
00:13:54.33\00:13:56.60
Yeah, yeah.
00:13:56.63\00:13:59.23
I know that many of you
00:13:59.27\00:14:00.74
will have read
many of Karl's books.
00:14:00.77\00:14:04.14
This is going to be one
that you don't want to miss.
00:14:04.17\00:14:07.84
"Are You More
Spiritual Than a 5th Grader?"
00:14:07.88\00:14:10.11
Take and listen for a
moment and you'll find out
00:14:10.15\00:14:12.05
how you can order
your very own copy.
00:14:12.08\00:14:14.45
Don't go away,
we'll be right back.
00:14:14.48\00:14:16.38
Thank you.
00:14:16.42\00:14:18.22
"Are You More
Spiritual Than a 5th Grader?"
00:14:18.25\00:14:20.86
is such a great question.
00:14:20.89\00:14:22.72
During a Week of Prayer at
Andrews University in 1975,
00:14:22.76\00:14:26.66
Elder Morris Venden delivered
a life changing message
00:14:26.70\00:14:29.70
to the students gathered there,
00:14:29.73\00:14:31.60
about the importance of having
00:14:31.63\00:14:33.23
a daily living
connection with Jesus.
00:14:33.27\00:14:36.17
Now Karl Haffner and
his daughter, Claire,
00:14:36.20\00:14:38.87
team up to repackage
Venden's classic message
00:14:38.91\00:14:42.18
of Righteousness by Faith.
00:14:42.21\00:14:44.41
40 years later,
that precious message
00:14:44.45\00:14:47.42
is still needed as
much today as it was then.
00:14:47.45\00:14:51.29
"Are You More
Spiritual Than a 5th Grader?"
00:14:51.32\00:14:53.89
has been updated and expanded
00:14:53.92\00:14:56.09
but clearly preserves
Morris Venden's legacy,
00:14:56.12\00:14:59.03
that in Jesus we have
righteousness and salvation.
00:14:59.06\00:15:02.36
Get your copy by
calling 1800-765-6955.
00:15:02.40\00:15:08.64
Stop by your local
Adventist Book Center
00:15:08.67\00:15:10.97
or order online at
AdventistBookCenter.com.
00:15:11.01\00:15:16.61
Welcome back.
00:15:16.64\00:15:17.98
We are here today
chatting with our friend,
00:15:18.01\00:15:20.05
Pastor Karl Haffner.
00:15:20.08\00:15:22.05
And Karl, I want to ask you,
00:15:22.08\00:15:25.22
how has your
experience with Jesus,
00:15:25.25\00:15:27.86
you speak about this
daily experience with Jesus,
00:15:27.89\00:15:32.59
how has that impacted
00:15:32.63\00:15:34.16
your middle of the
river experiences in life
00:15:34.20\00:15:37.43
because we all have
those moments, don't we?
00:15:37.47\00:15:39.83
Yeah, well, this is definitely
been the most life changing
00:15:39.87\00:15:44.74
writing project I've ever done.
00:15:44.77\00:15:47.91
And it just listening
to all those old sermons.
00:15:47.94\00:15:54.62
Morris' son, Lee gave them to me
00:15:54.65\00:15:57.82
and this past year, at
our church in Kettering,
00:15:57.85\00:16:00.86
I did one year sermon series
called "Speaking of Jesus,"
00:16:00.89\00:16:05.66
and the
invitation was for all of us
00:16:05.69\00:16:09.73
to be a part of the covenant
00:16:09.76\00:16:11.63
where we were
going to just spend time,
00:16:11.67\00:16:14.94
every morning
reading one chapter
00:16:14.97\00:16:17.74
of one of the gospels.
00:16:17.77\00:16:20.01
And we did that, you know,
00:16:20.04\00:16:21.81
day after day to just
build a friendship with Jesus.
00:16:21.84\00:16:25.95
The idea was not to
get through the gospels
00:16:25.98\00:16:28.75
five times in a
year, which we did.
00:16:28.78\00:16:31.29
Or even
necessarily to learn about
00:16:31.32\00:16:35.52
Jesus or
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.
00:16:35.56\00:16:38.56
The idea was to just spend time
00:16:38.59\00:16:42.50
building a personal
friendship with Jesus.
00:16:42.53\00:16:47.00
And for me, personally,
it's, it's just been,
00:16:47.04\00:16:53.61
it's been a major game changer.
00:16:53.64\00:16:56.81
And the primary
idea that I took out
00:16:56.85\00:17:00.42
of that Week of Prayer
and in writing the book was...
00:17:00.45\00:17:05.99
for years I preached that
it's not about trying real hard
00:17:06.02\00:17:10.59
but it's about training.
00:17:10.63\00:17:12.79
And this book has
helped me see that that,
00:17:12.83\00:17:17.47
well, not untrue,
00:17:17.50\00:17:21.24
is perhaps not really
complete there, you know.
00:17:21.27\00:17:24.47
And again, for years, it'd
be, we try real hard to be good,
00:17:24.51\00:17:28.98
but we were not
changed by trying real hard,
00:17:29.01\00:17:33.65
we're changed by entering
into a life of training.
00:17:33.68\00:17:37.35
You know, Paul says,
00:17:37.39\00:17:38.72
I put my body
into strict training
00:17:38.75\00:17:40.92
so that I can win the race.
00:17:40.96\00:17:43.09
And so through the
spiritual disciplines of prayer
00:17:43.12\00:17:47.83
and Bible study and these
activities that catapult us
00:17:47.86\00:17:50.83
into the presence of
God, He then lives within us
00:17:50.87\00:17:54.90
and changes our
desires and He changes us.
00:17:54.94\00:17:59.31
But what this has
really helped me to see is that
00:17:59.34\00:18:05.58
ultimately even training
can be a type of trying that,
00:18:05.61\00:18:12.75
and so what I
have come to believe
00:18:12.79\00:18:15.86
that scripture
teaches on this is,
00:18:15.89\00:18:17.89
it's not certainly about trying,
00:18:17.93\00:18:21.70
that it's all about
Christ and His righteousness.
00:18:21.73\00:18:26.43
And it's not
only about training,
00:18:26.47\00:18:30.27
although training is important.
00:18:30.31\00:18:33.34
Ultimately, I believe
it's all about trusting.
00:18:33.38\00:18:37.65
Trusting my friend Jesus,
00:18:37.68\00:18:40.88
that the work of
transformation is His work
00:18:40.92\00:18:47.09
and He will do this
00:18:47.12\00:18:48.59
and this is what Morris
was preaching back in the 70s.
00:18:48.62\00:18:52.53
That most people say
00:18:52.56\00:18:55.70
it's all the work of
Christ's justification.
00:18:55.73\00:19:00.24
We're saved by
grace and Christ alone
00:19:00.27\00:19:04.01
and some day, glorification,
when we go to heaven.
00:19:04.04\00:19:07.38
We love our big words
don't we? Oh, yeah. Yeah. We do.
00:19:07.41\00:19:09.81
When we are transported
from this earth to the next,
00:19:09.84\00:19:12.95
we, we all pretty much
agree we're okay with that,
00:19:12.98\00:19:16.25
that that's the work of Christ.
00:19:16.28\00:19:18.09
I can't wing my way to
heaven, no matter how good I am.
00:19:18.12\00:19:22.72
Can't save myself, not justify.
00:19:22.76\00:19:25.99
But that middle
season of salvation,
00:19:26.03\00:19:28.46
sanctification or transformation
00:19:28.50\00:19:31.07
or becoming more
and more like Jesus.
00:19:31.10\00:19:34.07
Well, yeah, that's the
work of faith in Christ,
00:19:34.10\00:19:38.37
but its effort as well, right?
00:19:38.41\00:19:40.78
There's got to be
something that I do with that.
00:19:40.81\00:19:45.71
And I've come to
this settled place
00:19:45.75\00:19:48.88
in my own spiritual journey, no.
00:19:48.92\00:19:51.92
Even the act of transformation,
00:19:51.95\00:19:55.69
of becoming more like
Jesus, sanctification.
00:19:55.72\00:19:59.23
I ultimately
just needed to trust
00:19:59.26\00:20:02.50
that, that is the
work of Christ as much
00:20:02.53\00:20:04.67
and that was so
liberating to me.
00:20:04.70\00:20:08.07
Amen, amen. Trust,
that's a key issue.
00:20:08.10\00:20:12.17
Do I trust Jesus
to meet my needs?
00:20:12.21\00:20:15.18
My need to change
00:20:15.21\00:20:17.31
because that is one
of our greatest needs
00:20:17.35\00:20:19.35
and perhaps one we
don't always recognize.
00:20:19.38\00:20:21.52
Yes. But it is one
of our greatest needs.
00:20:21.55\00:20:23.92
Do I trust Jesus?
00:20:23.95\00:20:25.52
Karl, I love
following you on Facebook
00:20:25.55\00:20:28.06
and a couple months
back, you posted a question,
00:20:28.09\00:20:31.23
which you would often
do, to get responses from,
00:20:31.26\00:20:34.20
from your members
and from other people.
00:20:34.23\00:20:36.97
And the question you posted was,
00:20:37.00\00:20:38.90
"What are you hungry for?"
00:20:38.93\00:20:40.27
Or something along those lines.
00:20:40.30\00:20:41.94
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:41.97\00:20:43.30
And isn't that what it
is, isn't that where it's at?
00:20:43.34\00:20:46.51
We are hungry for Jesus.
00:20:46.54\00:20:49.31
And we don't
always recognize that.
00:20:49.34\00:20:51.15
Yeah, that's exactly right.
00:20:51.18\00:20:54.32
And this hunger
can only be satisfied
00:20:54.35\00:21:01.42
in eating the living bread.
00:21:01.46\00:21:04.23
Morris Venden used to
tell a wonderful story
00:21:04.26\00:21:06.83
and I heard him share it
00:21:06.86\00:21:09.16
at workers'
meeting as a young pastor.
00:21:09.20\00:21:11.63
And now Lee, his son
is sharing this story
00:21:11.67\00:21:15.50
freely of
visiting his aunt Edna,
00:21:15.54\00:21:18.67
who would bake
this wonderful bread.
00:21:18.71\00:21:21.41
So he would come as a youngster
00:21:21.44\00:21:23.61
and he'd eat this,
this bread and he'd say,
00:21:23.65\00:21:27.92
"Can you imagine how
cool it would have been
00:21:27.95\00:21:30.72
had we visited Aunt Edna
00:21:30.75\00:21:33.72
and she make us watch
her eat this bread, you know,
00:21:33.76\00:21:37.69
the wonderful aroma wafting
through the house, you know."
00:21:37.73\00:21:41.63
But no, we knew that she
would have home-made preserves
00:21:41.66\00:21:45.43
to slather on the fresh breads,
steaming hot out of the oven
00:21:45.47\00:21:49.90
and we loved visiting Aunt Edna,
00:21:49.94\00:21:53.41
but then what Morris Venden
would challenge pastors with
00:21:53.44\00:21:56.85
was to say, you know,
it's not enough to just feed
00:21:56.88\00:22:03.95
Church members once a week
00:22:03.99\00:22:06.45
with wonderful
bread of life with,
00:22:06.49\00:22:09.09
you know, messages about Jesus
is as important as that is.
00:22:09.12\00:22:13.29
He said it would
have been a lot better
00:22:13.33\00:22:15.26
had Aunt Edna
given us the recipe,
00:22:15.30\00:22:17.90
so that we could
bake bread for ourselves.
00:22:17.93\00:22:20.84
And eat it
everyday. And eat it everyday.
00:22:20.87\00:22:23.51
And the reality is
he'd say to preachers,
00:22:23.54\00:22:27.08
"If your people aren't eating,
00:22:27.11\00:22:28.91
if you're not
giving them the recipe..."
00:22:28.94\00:22:31.28
That's good stuff.
00:22:31.31\00:22:32.65
"That is a disaster,
because people will die.
00:22:32.68\00:22:37.65
It's unhealthy if
they're not eating
00:22:37.69\00:22:40.46
and people get really
grouchy when they get hungry.
00:22:40.49\00:22:43.66
I know I do. Right? I do.
00:22:43.69\00:22:45.36
Yeah.
00:22:45.39\00:22:46.73
Maybe that's part of the problem
00:22:46.76\00:22:48.30
in relationship
between church members?
00:22:48.33\00:22:51.13
Absolutely, that we're,
00:22:51.17\00:22:53.40
we're obsessed
with doing church.
00:22:53.44\00:22:57.21
The music or you know,
00:22:57.24\00:22:59.71
what time the
services are and...
00:22:59.74\00:23:02.04
What color the carpet is.
00:23:02.08\00:23:03.41
How we do church
on Saturday morning
00:23:03.45\00:23:04.91
in this concert or
rather than being the church,
00:23:04.95\00:23:08.48
which is just a living out
00:23:08.52\00:23:10.95
of a daily
relationship with Jesus.
00:23:10.99\00:23:13.92
Being light, being salt
00:23:13.96\00:23:15.96
and you know, this is
all part of this growing
00:23:15.99\00:23:21.26
daily relationship with Jesus.
00:23:21.30\00:23:23.16
I, I like that point, Karl.
00:23:23.20\00:23:24.67
We become so busy doing that
we forget the being part of it.
00:23:24.70\00:23:29.27
It's hard to be still, isn't it?
00:23:29.30\00:23:31.14
It's very hard.
00:23:31.17\00:23:32.51
I think it's
part of human nature
00:23:32.54\00:23:33.88
that we feel we have to
get involved and do something.
00:23:33.91\00:23:35.84
And yeah, yeah, we do.
00:23:35.88\00:23:39.11
Unfortunately,
we are out of time.
00:23:39.15\00:23:41.98
No. Not already. Well, yeah.
00:23:42.02\00:23:43.35
We are almost at the
end but we want you to speak
00:23:43.39\00:23:45.89
to the heart of the people
who are watching the program.
00:23:45.92\00:23:49.22
Many of us are struggling
with this idea that phrase,
00:23:49.26\00:23:51.89
"Having a personal
relationship with Jesus."
00:23:51.93\00:23:54.83
For some of us,
it's a complete mystery.
00:23:54.86\00:23:56.56
How do I start?
Where do I begin?
00:23:56.60\00:23:58.47
Does Jesus even want
to have a relationship
00:23:58.50\00:24:01.77
with someone like me?
00:24:01.80\00:24:03.14
For a few moments,
00:24:03.17\00:24:04.51
just speak to the
heart of our viewers.
00:24:04.54\00:24:05.87
How can we get started
00:24:05.91\00:24:07.24
in this personal
relationship with Jesus?
00:24:07.28\00:24:09.88
Well, I think it starts with...
00:24:09.91\00:24:11.91
Morris Venden used to
talk about a three legged stool
00:24:11.95\00:24:15.38
and Lee Venden
talks a lot about that,
00:24:15.42\00:24:19.75
and it's Bible study prayer
and serving, serving others,
00:24:19.79\00:24:24.39
sharing Jesus with others.
00:24:24.43\00:24:26.59
So I think that's critical
to any relationship with Christ
00:24:26.63\00:24:31.47
and a relationship with Jesus
00:24:31.50\00:24:34.44
works like
relationships with anybody,
00:24:34.47\00:24:38.24
it just, it takes
time and there's times
00:24:38.27\00:24:42.04
when you go
through darker chapters
00:24:42.08\00:24:45.21
where you feel distant
00:24:45.25\00:24:46.85
and it doesn't seem to be
working as well as other times.
00:24:46.88\00:24:51.39
And that's okay.
00:24:51.42\00:24:53.46
You keep coming back to
faith, is what I would say
00:24:53.49\00:24:56.49
because at the heart,
00:24:56.52\00:24:59.03
religion and
spirituality and faith.
00:24:59.06\00:25:02.90
It's not about behaving for God
00:25:02.93\00:25:05.17
and a lot of times
we get this so goofed up
00:25:05.20\00:25:07.67
and junked up in our thinking
00:25:07.70\00:25:09.60
that if I just stop
doing this or start doing that,
00:25:09.64\00:25:13.07
it's not about behaving for God
00:25:13.11\00:25:16.54
and I would say it's not
even about believing in God,
00:25:16.58\00:25:19.61
even the devils believe in God.
00:25:19.65\00:25:22.38
At the core, it's
all about being with God.
00:25:22.42\00:25:26.39
So my appeal to
viewers would be,
00:25:26.42\00:25:29.52
be with God, everyday.
00:25:29.56\00:25:31.79
Jesus stands at
the door and knock.
00:25:31.83\00:25:33.76
He wants to come
in and be with you.
00:25:33.80\00:25:38.10
So, prayer, Bible
study, and service to others.
00:25:38.13\00:25:44.17
It's nothing new. It's...
00:25:44.21\00:25:45.91
We heard it before.
We've heard it before.
00:25:45.94\00:25:48.18
But, Karl do you think
that's part of the problem?
00:25:48.21\00:25:50.35
It could well be, huh.
00:25:50.38\00:25:52.45
You know sometime the things
that are so familiar to us,
00:25:52.48\00:25:55.48
they seem to lose their edge,
00:25:55.52\00:25:57.19
they seem to lose
their importance, don't they?
00:25:57.22\00:25:59.62
what do you think can
help us, remind us and bring us
00:25:59.65\00:26:03.53
back there to that
place, to that hunger?
00:26:03.56\00:26:06.46
Brings us back to
hunger, what are we hungry for?
00:26:06.49\00:26:09.50
And I, and I
think it is important
00:26:09.53\00:26:11.57
to make intentional
decisions, that I am going
00:26:11.60\00:26:15.34
and that's why it
felt a little prescriptive
00:26:15.37\00:26:18.87
to say to the church,
00:26:18.91\00:26:20.24
"Look, we are just
gonna spend time everyday."
00:26:20.28\00:26:23.08
Well, a lot of studies suggest
00:26:23.11\00:26:25.61
church members are
not taking that time.
00:26:25.65\00:26:28.72
And so it's
elementary as it might sound
00:26:28.75\00:26:31.75
and while, I didn't
want it to be prescriptive
00:26:31.79\00:26:35.76
or how-to list to boil it down
00:26:35.79\00:26:38.46
to that at the same time,
00:26:38.49\00:26:41.23
how else do you
build relationships?
00:26:41.26\00:26:43.53
Amen, Karl.
00:26:43.57\00:26:44.90
When you are spending
time with the person you love.
00:26:44.93\00:26:47.04
Got to you stop you there. Okay.
00:26:47.07\00:26:48.40
We've been having a conversation
00:26:48.44\00:26:49.77
with Karl
Haffner about his book,
00:26:49.80\00:26:51.14
"Are You More
Spiritual Than a 5th Grader?"
00:26:51.17\00:26:53.04
This has been another episode
of "Stones of Remembrance."
00:26:53.07\00:26:55.44
I'm Pierre Quinn
and for Karen Pearson.
00:26:55.48\00:26:57.81
we'll see you next time.
00:26:57.85\00:26:59.21
Take care.
00:26:59.25\00:27:00.58
Opportunities in
Franklin County, Minnesota,
00:27:29.44\00:27:32.11
were very limited in 1861.
00:27:32.15\00:27:34.78
For the Rouse brothers,
00:27:34.82\00:27:36.18
the West seemed the best option.
00:27:36.22\00:27:38.59
But would they
have continued West,
00:27:38.62\00:27:40.42
had they known of the
uncharted territories,
00:27:40.46\00:27:43.09
rugged cowboys, hostile Indians,
00:27:43.12\00:27:45.33
and violent outlaws that they
would counter along the way?
00:27:45.36\00:27:48.66
The story of Elisha Rouse,
00:27:48.70\00:27:50.83
one of the original
settlers of Bozeman, Montana,
00:27:50.87\00:27:53.74
reads like a work of fiction,
but the story is all true.
00:27:53.77\00:27:58.07
He learned to survive
in a hostile environment
00:27:58.11\00:28:00.71
of the western frontier.
00:28:00.74\00:28:02.38
But he learned something else,
00:28:02.41\00:28:04.25
something far more
important, along the way.
00:28:04.28\00:28:07.62
Montana Bullwhacker
is a youth sharing book
00:28:07.65\00:28:09.88
and quantity
pricing is available.
00:28:09.92\00:28:12.19
To get your copy of
"Montana Bullwhacker"
00:28:12.22\00:28:14.49
sharing edition,
call 1-800-765-6955.
00:28:14.52\00:28:20.10
Stop by your local
Adventist Book Center
00:28:20.13\00:28:22.56
or order online at
AdventistBookCenter.com
00:28:22.60\00:28:26.87