Participants: Karen Pierson & Pierre Quinn (Host), Darold Bigger
Series Code: SOR
Program Code: SOR000006A
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00:22 Welcome to another episode of "Stones of Remembrance."
00:26 I'm Karen Pearson and I'm here today 00:28 with my co-host Pierre Quinn. 00:30 Welcome Pierre. Thank you. 00:32 "Stones of Remembrance" is a program 00:34 where we take a moment to look at those life experiences 00:37 that shape us and lead us to a closer walk with Jesus. 00:41 Often as we pass through life's deep waters just as Joshua did, 00:46 that when he-- on his way to the promise land, 00:48 we can meet some unexpected trials but also blessings, 00:52 right, Pierre, 00:53 that help determine the direction of our lives. 00:57 Before I introduce you to today's guest, 00:59 I'd like to share something from the word with you. 01:02 I'm reading from Romans 8:35, 01:07 37 through 39. 01:10 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? 01:13 Shall tribulation or distress, persecution or famine, 01:17 nakedness, peril or sword. 01:20 But in all of these things, 01:22 we are overwhelmingly conquering 01:25 through Him who loved us. 01:27 For I am convinced that neither death, 01:30 nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, 01:34 nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 01:37 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, 01:41 shall be able to separate us from the love of God 01:44 which is in Christ Jesus, our Lord". 01:47 Amen. Amen. 01:48 I know this is the favorite passage with many people. 01:50 It's one of my favorite passages, 01:52 and I know it is the favorite of our Guest today too. 01:56 I'd like to welcome you, today to Darold Bigger. 01:59 Thank you. Welcome Darold, to our program. 02:01 Thank you. 02:03 Pleasure to be with you. Thank you. 02:04 We are excited to have you here on "Stones of Remembrance." 02:07 And we are gonna be looking at some of the situations 02:09 and things that you went through in your life. 02:13 But before we do that, let's take a look at some, 02:16 tell us a little bit about yourself, 02:17 some of the things about you. 02:19 Well I'm a Pastor. 02:20 Pastored in small rural churches 02:22 in the Western part of the US. 02:25 Then have been on a couple of campuses, 02:26 Adventist campuses then I've been 02:28 at Walla Walla University, first as Pastor 02:31 and now as teacher for several decades. 02:35 Long time. 02:37 Also been in military. 02:38 I was a reserved chaplain 02:39 for several decades also, Pierre, yeah. 02:42 I'm beginning to sound like an old man. 02:44 Yeah. 02:46 Well, Darold, 02:50 we-- we're gonna be looking at a book 02:51 that you have written, 02:53 that is called "A Time to Forgive." 02:57 And... 02:59 you have experienced something that many people 03:03 think of as a parent's worst nightmare. 03:07 And that is something 03:09 that you've experienced the loss of a child. 03:12 And, from that, growing through that-- those deep waters, 03:18 going through that river, 03:21 you came to learn many things, didn't you? 03:23 Things that I had not sorted out well before. 03:29 And some times crisis 03:30 has a way of doing that, doesn't it? 03:32 It does. 03:33 It will bring things to surface that we haven't. 03:36 So let's think about it for a moment, 03:38 one day, it was on a Monday June 17, 1996. 03:44 The day after Father's day, you're in your office. 03:47 Yes. And you received a phone call. 03:50 The campus chaplain called me and asked, 03:54 if I would come to his office. 03:55 He had a matter of some urgency he wanted to talk to me about. 04:01 I tried to delay him until afternoon, 04:03 he said, "No I need you to come right now." 04:06 So I went over to his office 04:08 and when I went in Barbara, my wife was already there. 04:12 And that took me off guard. 04:13 And it was very quiet. 04:15 You know, when you walk into a room 04:17 there is sometimes just an aura of silence 04:20 and mystery about it. 04:23 He came around from his side of the desk, 04:26 and said, it comes back when I remember this. 04:31 He said, "I have the worst possible news 04:34 I could ever share with you. 04:36 Shannon has been killed, 04:40 murdered in her apartment in Washington D.C." 04:45 As a father reading that first section of your book, 04:50 my heart just sank, because as Karen said, 04:53 that's a parent's worst nightmare. 04:57 So when you are hearing this news 04:58 and the chaplain is talking to you what's-- 05:00 what's going on in your head? 05:03 I know, I think my mind went blank. 05:09 Barbara remembers that I started crying 05:12 very shortly after that. 05:16 Little flashes of wishing that this wouldn't be true 05:19 that there might've been a mistake. 05:21 He asked us if we wanted to talk to the police in D.C, 05:27 which we did and it was immediately clear 05:31 that this was not an error. 05:33 Yeah, it had happen. 05:35 They described very clearly where she lived and, 05:38 what they found it was not pretty. 05:43 We discovered then in the next 05:47 several minutes that, 05:50 she had been tied to her bed. 05:53 And stabbed and slashed to death. 05:58 And that they were looking now for who it was who did this. 06:04 They started that next day then 06:08 scanning surveillance tapes 06:10 from the entrance to this apartment complex. 06:13 And found, identified a van which was not resident there. 06:20 They got the license plate from the camera for the van. 06:24 And the license plate had been stolen from another vehicle. 06:27 Wow. 06:29 So, but they went to the part of the city 06:30 in which the license plate had been stolen 06:33 and just started patrolling the streets. 06:35 And two very energetic committed detectives, 06:41 for the next 36 hours, looked for this vehicle. 06:45 So as the information is coming in then, 06:49 do you have any thoughts at this time 06:51 about the person or persons who may be involved 06:55 as your mind drifted to them 06:56 and how you would respond to them? 06:59 Not at all at that time of point in time. 07:01 And it wasn't until he was found, 07:05 kind of miraculously by surprising series of events. 07:09 And they got a search warrant 07:13 for his apartment and found him early on Tuesday morning 07:18 watching Shannon's television set and he had several 07:20 other things he had stolen from her apartment. 07:22 Wow. 07:24 They found a palm print of his in her apartment 07:26 and shortly after that, 07:29 he confessed to having killed her. 07:32 Now, Darold, when you and Barbara 07:35 went to Barbara's mother to break the news to her, 07:42 how did she respond? 07:44 Her folks, Barbara's folks had just moved to the city 07:48 where we were from Montana, 07:50 hours and hours away. 07:53 And we stopped there on our way home 07:55 from the chaplain's office. 07:58 And they thought we have just come to say hello. 08:01 Yeah. Yeah. 08:03 But it was very clear to her mother, 08:05 very shortly after she answered the door 08:06 that there was something horribly wrong. 08:09 So, she initially came to the door 08:11 bounding and happy, well, welcome, welcome. 08:15 And then was sobered by the news 08:18 that Shannon was gone. 08:20 Yeah. Yeah. 08:21 I know that she had prayed for Shannon's safety everyday. 08:24 Right. 08:26 And that-- that leads us to really interesting thing. 08:30 Where is God when bad things happen to good people? 08:35 I know, um, Darold, a friend of yours 08:37 during that time sent you an email. 08:39 And he said that "Free will can and does 08:43 lead many into darkness while others choose the light 08:47 of the world as their refuge. 08:50 The battle will continue." 08:52 The battle continues doesn't it? 08:54 Until we draw nearer and nearer to the end of time. 08:59 Yeah, well, it's a sobering way to face the reality 09:02 that this world is a hostile place. 09:05 So it's not safe and it's not comfortable 09:08 and life is not fair. 09:11 So for all kinds of reasons, 09:13 now maybe your listeners would have a numbers of reasons 09:17 to wish to be able to forgive somebody 09:20 by betrayal or neglect or abuse or misuse or-- 09:26 all kinds of reasons. 09:27 Forgiveness is such a-- it's such an interesting topic. 09:30 It is. 09:31 Because-- do you forgive and forget? 09:34 Do you forgive easily or lightly? 09:37 I remember hearing a worship talk one day, 09:41 where the speaker made the point that 09:43 we need to be able to forgive 09:45 to the same degree and depth, that we've been wounded. 09:49 How would you comment on that? 09:51 Very true. 09:53 Thoughts about the whole forgiveness thing 09:54 didn't come for me for months afterward. 09:57 And it wasn't until the following-- 09:59 I think I was just overwhelmed initially by grief. 10:02 And for months went by 10:06 with significant personality changes. 10:08 I've always been a person who had lots of words 10:11 running through my head 10:13 and for months I didn't have anything to say. 10:16 It just left me speechless. 10:18 And it wasn't until the following spring, 10:21 when Anthony who had been sentenced by then, 10:24 to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, 10:27 plus life imprisoned, plus twenty years. 10:30 Wow. 10:32 It wasn't until the following spring when he appealed 10:36 and he wanted to change his sentence to not guilty 10:40 and he wanted his-- his sentences reduced. 10:45 That's what triggered my need 10:47 to look for some kind of forgiveness. 10:48 And so for those first several months, 10:51 it was all dealing with my own sadness and loss and grief. 10:55 You know sometimes we think that it's easier 10:57 to forgive a person when they show some remorse 11:00 or sorrow for what they've done. 11:03 So tell me about Anthony Robinson. 11:05 Did he show any remorse? 11:09 We didn't have any personal contact with him 11:12 until his court appearances. 11:15 And we went back to D.C. when he was sentenced. 11:19 At that time, 11:21 he sat through the testimony by the detectives 11:25 and the psychologists and psychiatrists 11:27 with whom he had spent some time 11:29 being examined and evaluated. 11:32 And he sat inattentive. 11:36 Didn't look like he was paying much attention, 11:37 wasn't engaged very much 11:39 until the States attorney 11:41 at the end of all of this testimony 11:43 made his final appeal to the judge. 11:48 And in a very vigorous way, 11:51 concluded his statement to the judge 11:54 by pointing at Anthony and saying, 11:57 "This man, who has committed this heinous crime, 12:01 needs to spend the rest of his life 12:05 in his own private hell." 12:08 And at that Anthony looked up, 12:10 and gave the attorney an obscene gesture. 12:13 Wow. 12:14 So, that was our visual image 12:19 and contact with Anthony. 12:21 No remorse. 12:22 There was no indication of it at that point anyway. 12:25 Yeah, yeah. 12:26 Well, I know that different people grieve differently 12:30 and I'd like to ask you a little bit about that, 12:32 but before we do we're gonna take a break 12:36 and we're going to learn how we can get hold 12:40 of Darold's book "A Time to Forgive." 12:47 What do you do when your daughter has been murdered 12:50 hundreds of miles away? 12:52 Do you leave her cold and alone in the morgue 12:54 or do you bring her home? 12:56 How do you feel when the funeral is over 12:58 and you watch her disappear from you for the last time 13:01 as a funeral director lowers 13:03 and latches the lid of a coffin. 13:06 Where was God when the murderer attacked her 13:08 and what on earth does God's expecting of you now. 13:11 In this masterful book on forgiveness, 13:14 Darold Bigger shares his struggle to come to terms 13:17 with his daughter's murder 13:19 and provides a unique look at the issue of forgiveness 13:22 and a refreshing look at love. 13:24 To get your copy of "A Time to Forgive," 13:28 you can call 1800-765-6955. 13:33 Stop by your local Adventist Book Center 13:36 or order online 13:37 at www.AdventistBookCenter.com 13:45 Welcome back to Stones of Remembrance, 13:47 with our guest Darold Bigger, 13:49 who is speaking to us today about a topic 13:51 that's very, very difficult, the gift of forgiveness, 13:55 the whole subject is one that is very hard 13:58 for most of us to deal with. 14:00 Darold, before we went to break 14:02 we just touched briefly on grieving. 14:04 And could you tell me, 14:06 especially, that first year you and Barbara, 14:10 how-- did you grieve the same, did you grieve differently? 14:13 No, the two of us are different from one another 14:15 and our daughter, surviving daughter 14:19 quite differently from either one of us. 14:20 Yeah. 14:22 Barbara became very talkative 14:24 and interacted with a lot of people 14:26 where she had been very introverted before that 14:29 and I became the one who retreated. 14:33 Sneaked out of church out the side door, 14:36 didn't want to visit with people, 14:39 it was quite a shift for both of us. 14:40 So we ended up living with people 14:42 who are quite different 14:44 that we had gotten used to before. 14:45 Almost like a personality change. 14:47 Very much so. Yeah. 14:48 Yeah, yeah. 14:49 There was something remarkable that what I found remarkable 14:52 that you wrote in the preface of your book 14:54 "A Time to Forgive." 14:56 You wrote and you said 14:58 "Ever since Shannon was killed, 15:00 Barbara and I have committed ourselves 15:02 to sharing how good God has been to us." 15:06 I think that is remarkable. 15:07 It is powerful. 15:08 You've just lost your daughter 15:10 and you've made that commitment to sharing 15:12 with other people how good God has been. 15:14 How on earth do you get, from this unimaginable pain 15:19 to sharing God's goodness? 15:21 What is the bridge? 15:22 It's a choice, 15:24 it is a matter of what prospective 15:25 you take at the world, 15:27 how you interpret circumstances that you face 15:30 and challenges that threat and overwhelm you. 15:34 One chooses to look for the good things 15:37 instead of just the bad things. 15:39 So, we were surrounded by friends, 15:42 families who were very supportive, 15:45 promises of God got us through these difficult times 15:48 and we look for the distant future 15:51 instead of just the temporary things. 15:53 Yeah. 15:55 These are important reminders for us. 15:57 We had a friend who remind us of the phrase 16:00 embedded in the 23 Psalm. 16:02 "Even when I walk through the valley of the shadow death, 16:06 I will fear no evil." 16:08 Yes. 16:09 So it isn't that we don't have these bad times, 16:11 it is that God walks with us in those moments. 16:16 Now as preachers we know that it's one thing 16:20 to share a personal story, 16:22 a challenge in a preaching moment 16:24 or in the classroom because you still you own it. 16:27 It's your story, but to write it down 16:30 means that you're willing to let it free, 16:33 and to let other people have access to it 16:34 and you don't have the same control. 16:36 What was the process like that for you? 16:38 Well, it was a surprise to me actually 16:41 because we, Barbara and I had done weekends 16:45 and seminars and camp meetings 16:47 about our experience. 16:48 So, we talked about it a lot. 16:50 But there was something different about writing it down 16:53 and then letting go of that 16:56 as if it was no longer mine or ours. 17:01 It becomes the experience of anyone 17:04 who wishes to participate in that now. 17:06 And our real hope is that God can bring 17:10 encouragement to other people as He has to us. 17:14 That's our wish. 17:16 Amen. 17:18 Amen, you know, 17:19 we spoke about the "The Stones of Remembrance" didn't we? 17:24 And Darold, the book I see is something 17:29 that we can hold and touch and the things 17:33 that we experience but it is that experience 17:36 that we have in the river. 17:37 When the water covers over it again, 17:40 it's not seen but that alter is still there, 17:42 those things that we remember 17:44 are still there and they shape our message. 17:49 And you said you made a choice 17:51 to focus on how good God has been and that is your alter, 17:58 your stones of remembrance. 18:00 Yeah, very true. 18:01 What an incredible story. 18:03 And it led to several incremental steps of things 18:05 we had never anticipated before. 18:06 I would like as a theoretician, as a teacher or preacher, 18:12 I would like to tell you 18:13 I thought all of this subject through ahead of time 18:15 and then illustrated it from life's experiences. 18:18 It was not that way for me. 18:19 The whole- 18:21 And if it isn't that trip, real life, 18:22 real life is not that way, it's unscripted isn't it? 18:25 Yeah. 18:27 Yeah and the circumstance pushed me 18:30 to deal with the subjects in a way I had not before 18:33 and it led us and some colleagues 18:37 and the social work departmental at Walla Walla 18:39 developed a workshop around forgiveness 18:42 and added a spiritual component to some good psychological, 18:46 sociological training that's already in existence. 18:50 So, we developed a DVD workshop. 18:52 It's a companion to the book. 18:54 The book rises out of those-- out of those months of thinking 18:59 and reading and praying and sorting things out. 19:02 And it's been a wonderful journey. 19:05 That's freed me up in other ways 19:06 not just in my dealing with my anger toward Anthony. 19:10 But in my understanding of who God is. Yes. 19:14 And how we relate to God, 19:15 it's reinforced the whole message 19:17 of righteousness by faith for me. 19:20 That we trust God to take care of us, 19:22 we don't have to do these things on our own. 19:24 Right. Right. 19:25 So, all of that is wonderful. Sorry. 19:27 Help us with-no problem; 19:28 help us with what forgiveness is and what it isn't? 19:33 I think when we hear the title of the book, 19:36 that notion of forgiveness may be different for everyone. 19:38 So, help us out with first, what it isn't? 19:42 Yeah. And then what it is? 19:44 Well, I think that a lot of reasons 19:47 that we struggle with the whole subject of forgiveness 19:49 is that we miss understand what it requires. 19:51 It does not mean that we obliterate 19:53 all the bad things in the world and pretend they don't exist. 19:56 So, we don't ignore the bad, 19:59 we don't say there are no consequences 20:01 for choices that I make 20:03 that impinge on another person's life. 20:05 All of those things are realities of our existence, 20:08 so we can't run away from that. 20:10 So, forgiveness is not forgetting, 20:12 it's not ignoring, it's not pardoning, 20:16 it's not excusing what people have done. 20:19 But what it does do is that it frees us as the survivors 20:24 and I've had students in my forgiveness class 20:27 that I've started teaching here very recently, 20:29 that students tell me they like the word survivor 20:31 rather than victim. 20:33 So, rather than being a victim of offences, 20:37 we become survivors of those experiences 20:40 and what forgiveness does is allow us to let go 20:43 of the anger and resentment, 20:46 that is there and it frees us from that. 20:50 And forgiveness turns us toward an ultimate long term solution, 20:54 kind of changes are perspective on life, 20:56 comes back to the choice again. 20:57 Yes. 20:59 So, in the third section of the book 21:00 I include a series of reflection exercises 21:03 that for me, help reinforce a different perspective 21:09 on the challenges we face in this world. 21:12 So, is forgiveness a gift? 21:17 I'm going to say yes, but with a caveat. 21:20 I think there are some instances in which people 21:22 can forgive, less traumatic events in life 21:26 they can do that with a natural process. 21:29 But for those things that traumatizes 21:31 or for some of us who are in trouble, 21:34 we need a miraculous supernatural intervention 21:38 on the part of God in order to be able to let go 21:41 of our anger and resentment. 21:42 And in that sense, that's why I say forgiveness is a gift. 21:47 Yeah. 21:48 But that is so refreshing to me, 21:50 it-- you know sometimes in our sincerity and honesty 21:54 to want to be good Christians 21:56 we think I know that I need to forgive them 21:58 and we try and white-knuckle our way to forgiveness 22:02 and that doesn't really work, does it? 22:06 No, and in fact, it distorts not only 22:08 our perspective of the situation 22:11 but it distorts the character of God. 22:14 It's a misunderstanding 22:16 of that phrase in the Lord's Prayer, for example, 22:18 that says we will-that we ask God to forgive our sins, 22:22 as we have forgiven others that make it sound 22:24 like its our job to do it first 22:27 and God then reacts based on how well we do our work. 22:31 What a horrible view of God that creates. 22:33 Yeah. 22:35 So, I've come to a new understanding 22:37 of that Lord's Prayer and the reminder 22:40 from Colossians, for example, where Paul says 22:43 "We ought to forgive one another, 22:44 as God has forgiven us in Jesus." 22:48 Yes, you have some amazing thoughts there on forgiveness 22:51 now we're running out of time unfortunately. 22:54 If someone's reading your book for the first time 22:56 or even struggling with this idea of forgiveness, 22:59 and you just got a few minutes to share something with them, 23:01 what do you want them to walk away from this program with? 23:05 Well, one thing I better do is finish the story, 23:09 Anthony, the following spring 23:12 wanted to change his plea to not guilty, 23:15 wanted his sentences reduced 23:16 and that trigged in me some intense anger. 23:20 I went for weeks with knots in my stomach, 23:23 jaw tight and clinched, fists tense. 23:29 I was teaching at the time, stress management class 23:32 at the university, isn't that a paradox? 23:35 And the following quarter, 23:37 I taught a Christian spirituality course 23:40 where we talked about prayer 23:42 and surrendering your-- life to God, 23:44 as ever so I knew what I ought to be doing 23:47 to take care of this. 23:49 Nothing worked for me. 23:51 And after several weeks of failing 23:54 to be able to let go of that rage inside of me, 23:59 I sat in church on Sabbath morning 24:02 and the same chaplain who had 24:04 told us about Shannon's death previous summer, 24:08 spoke about how Jesus invites us to love one another, 24:12 and to love our enemies. 24:14 And I felt like a spiritually bankrupt person. 24:18 I could not do what God wanted me to do. 24:23 And at the instant that I felt so horrible about myself, 24:28 I remembered another text 24:31 where Paul in Romans 5 reminds us 24:34 that "While we were still sinners Christ died for us." 24:40 And in an especially profound way that morning 24:44 I sensed my own need 24:48 and at the moment 24:51 God's forgiveness washed over me, 24:54 the knots on my stomach disappeared, 24:56 my clenched fist relaxed 25:00 and on the way out of church that morning 25:04 another grievance that I had carried for a long time, 25:07 I recognize was gone. 25:10 So, that has lead me to remind myself 25:13 that no matter what bad things happen to us in life, 25:16 Jesus can take care of those. 25:19 "In this life we'll have trouble but take heart 25:22 I have over come the world" says Jesus. 25:25 And He over comes our troubles by giving us the gift 25:29 of forgiveness, that ability to forgive one another 25:34 as Christ has forgiven us as Paul says in Colossians. 25:40 So, I would wish your viewers 25:43 might hang on to that wonderful gift 25:46 as a way of dealing with their disappointments 25:48 and frustrations in life, 25:50 that they might look to Jesus as the ultimate solution 25:53 for their challenges and find in Him the rest and relief 25:58 that we have found. 26:00 Yes. In following him. 26:02 Yes. 26:04 We thank you for sharing a part of your story with us today, 26:08 for your transparency and for your honesty, 26:11 and I think one of things that you've really helped us 26:14 to remember since this is the "Stones of Remembrance" 26:17 to remember that in order for us to forgive other people, 26:21 we first have to recognize and accept the fact 26:24 that Christ first forgave us. 26:27 Our guest today on "Stones of Remembrance" 26:29 has been Darold Bigger from Walla Walla University 26:32 and we're reminded today that the challenge of forgiving 26:36 is a challenge that we all share as Christians. 26:40 And it's so important for us to remember also 26:42 that in order for us to forgive other people, 26:45 we need to access and lay hold 26:47 the Christ's forgiveness for us, 26:49 first if we confess our sins, 26:51 He's faithful and just to forgive us. 26:53 For this episode of "Stones of Remembrance, 26:56 "I'm Pierre Quinn and for my co-host Karen Pearson, 26:59 we thank you and we'll see you next time. 27:32 In Greek mythology, the river Styx, 27:34 separated the land of the living from Hades, 27:37 the abode of the dead. 27:39 When death came for you, 27:40 the ferryman carried you across the river to the other side. 27:45 Are stories and myths of ancient civilizations 27:47 enough for you when it comes to death? 27:50 Or do you want to really know what will happen 27:53 when you are left alone in the graveyard? 27:56 Life is hard and then you die, it's not just a bumper sticker 28:00 or an internet mean, it's the truth. 28:03 But there is hope! 28:05 In "Draining Styx" Pastor Shawn Boonstra shares 28:08 what really happens after death. 28:10 Quantity pricing is available, 28:13 to get your copy of "Draining the Styx" 28:16 call 1-800-765-6955, 28:21 stop by your local Adventist Book Center 28:23 or order online today at AdvenistBookCenter.com |
Revised 2015-12-17