Welcome to another episode
of "Stones of Remembrance."
00:00:22.85\00:00:26.35
I'm Karen Pearson
and I'm here today
00:00:26.39\00:00:28.09
with my co-host Pierre Quinn.
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Welcome Pierre. Thank you.
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"Stones of
Remembrance" is a program
00:00:32.43\00:00:34.46
where we take a moment to
look at those life experiences
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that shape us and lead us
to a closer walk with Jesus.
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Often as we pass through life's
deep waters just as Joshua did,
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that when he-- on his
way to the promise land,
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we can meet some unexpected
trials but also blessings,
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right, Pierre,
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that help determine
the direction of our lives.
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Before I introduce
you to today's guest,
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I'd like to share something
from the word with you.
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I'm reading from Romans 8:35,
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37 through 39.
00:01:07.10\00:01:10.10
"Who shall separate us
from the love of Christ?
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Shall tribulation or
distress, persecution or famine,
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nakedness, peril or sword.
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But in all of these things,
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we are overwhelmingly conquering
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through Him who loved us.
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For I am convinced
that neither death,
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nor life, nor
angels, nor principalities,
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nor things present, nor
things to come, nor powers,
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nor height, nor depth,
nor any other created thing,
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shall be able to
separate us from the love of God
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which is in
Christ Jesus, our Lord".
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Amen. Amen.
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I know this is the favorite
passage with many people.
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It's one of my
favorite passages,
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and I know it is the
favorite of our Guest today too.
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I'd like to welcome
you, today to Darold Bigger.
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Thank you. Welcome
Darold, to our program.
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Thank you.
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Pleasure to be
with you. Thank you.
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We are excited to have you
here on "Stones of Remembrance."
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And we are gonna be looking
at some of the situations
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and things that you
went through in your life.
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But before we do that,
let's take a look at some,
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tell us a little
bit about yourself,
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some of the things about you.
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Well I'm a Pastor.
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Pastored in small rural churches
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in the Western part of the US.
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Then have been on
a couple of campuses,
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Adventist
campuses then I've been
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at Walla Walla
University, first as Pastor
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and now as teacher
for several decades.
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Long time.
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Also been in military.
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I was a reserved chaplain
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for several
decades also, Pierre, yeah.
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I'm beginning to
sound like an old man.
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Yeah.
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Well, Darold,
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we-- we're gonna
be looking at a book
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that you have written,
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that is called
"A Time to Forgive."
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And...
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you have experienced
something that many people
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think of as a
parent's worst nightmare.
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And that is something
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that you've
experienced the loss of a child.
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And, from that, growing through
that-- those deep waters,
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going through that river,
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you came to learn
many things, didn't you?
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Things that I had not
sorted out well before.
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And some times crisis
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has a way of
doing that, doesn't it?
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It does.
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It will bring things to
surface that we haven't.
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So let's think
about it for a moment,
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one day, it was on a
Monday June 17, 1996.
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The day after Father's
day, you're in your office.
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Yes. And you
received a phone call.
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The campus chaplain
called me and asked,
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if I would come to his office.
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He had a matter of some urgency
he wanted to talk to me about.
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I tried to delay
him until afternoon,
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he said, "No I need
you to come right now."
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So I went over to his office
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and when I went in Barbara,
my wife was already there.
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And that took me off guard.
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And it was very quiet.
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You know, when
you walk into a room
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there is sometimes
just an aura of silence
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and mystery about it.
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He came around from
his side of the desk,
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and said, it comes
back when I remember this.
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He said, "I have
the worst possible news
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I could ever share with you.
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Shannon has been killed,
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murdered in her
apartment in Washington D.C."
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As a father reading that
first section of your book,
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my heart just sank,
because as Karen said,
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that's a
parent's worst nightmare.
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So when you are
hearing this news
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and the chaplain is
talking to you what's--
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what's going on in your head?
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I know, I think
my mind went blank.
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Barbara remembers
that I started crying
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very shortly after that.
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Little flashes of wishing
that this wouldn't be true
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that there
might've been a mistake.
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He asked us if we wanted
to talk to the police in D.C,
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which we did and it
was immediately clear
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that this was not an error.
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Yeah, it had happen.
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They described very
clearly where she lived and,
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what they found
it was not pretty.
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We discovered then in the next
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several minutes that,
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she had been tied to her bed.
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And stabbed and
slashed to death.
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And that they were looking
now for who it was who did this.
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They started that next day then
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scanning surveillance tapes
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from the entrance to
this apartment complex.
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And found, identified a van
which was not resident there.
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They got the license plate
from the camera for the van.
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And the license plate had been
stolen from another vehicle.
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Wow.
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So, but they went
to the part of the city
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in which the license
plate had been stolen
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and just started
patrolling the streets.
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And two very
energetic committed detectives,
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for the next 36 hours,
looked for this vehicle.
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So as the
information is coming in then,
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do you have any
thoughts at this time
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about the person or
persons who may be involved
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as your mind drifted to them
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and how you
would respond to them?
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Not at all at that
time of point in time.
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And it wasn't
until he was found,
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kind of miraculously by
surprising series of events.
00:07:05.99\00:07:09.92
And they got a search warrant
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for his apartment and found
him early on Tuesday morning
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watching Shannon's television
set and he had several
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other things he had
stolen from her apartment.
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Wow.
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They found a palm
print of his in her apartment
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and shortly after that,
00:07:26.64\00:07:29.28
he confessed to
having killed her.
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Now, Darold,
when you and Barbara
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went to Barbara's mother
to break the news to her,
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how did she respond?
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Her folks, Barbara's
folks had just moved to the city
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where we were from Montana,
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hours and hours away.
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And we stopped
there on our way home
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from the chaplain's office.
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And they thought we
have just come to say hello.
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Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:01.98\00:08:03.31
But it was very
clear to her mother,
00:08:03.35\00:08:05.05
very shortly after
she answered the door
00:08:05.08\00:08:06.78
that there was
something horribly wrong.
00:08:06.82\00:08:09.35
So, she
initially came to the door
00:08:09.38\00:08:11.79
bounding and happy,
well, welcome, welcome.
00:08:11.82\00:08:15.69
And then was sobered by the news
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that Shannon was gone.
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Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:20.26\00:08:21.76
I know that she had prayed
for Shannon's safety everyday.
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Right.
00:08:24.97\00:08:26.30
And that-- that leads us
to really interesting thing.
00:08:26.33\00:08:30.34
Where is God when bad
things happen to good people?
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I know, um,
Darold, a friend of yours
00:08:35.18\00:08:37.25
during that time
sent you an email.
00:08:37.28\00:08:39.81
And he said that
"Free will can and does
00:08:39.85\00:08:43.95
lead many into darkness
while others choose the light
00:08:43.99\00:08:47.82
of the world as their refuge.
00:08:47.86\00:08:50.09
The battle will continue."
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The battle continues doesn't it?
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Until we draw nearer and
nearer to the end of time.
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Yeah, well, it's a
sobering way to face the reality
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that this world
is a hostile place.
00:09:02.77\00:09:05.47
So it's not safe
and it's not comfortable
00:09:05.51\00:09:08.68
and life is not fair.
00:09:08.71\00:09:11.35
So for all kinds of reasons,
00:09:11.38\00:09:13.15
now maybe your listeners
would have a numbers of reasons
00:09:13.18\00:09:17.49
to wish to be able
to forgive somebody
00:09:17.52\00:09:20.29
by betrayal or neglect
or abuse or misuse or--
00:09:20.32\00:09:26.36
all kinds of reasons.
00:09:26.39\00:09:27.73
Forgiveness is such a--
it's such an interesting topic.
00:09:27.76\00:09:30.57
It is.
00:09:30.60\00:09:31.93
Because-- do you
forgive and forget?
00:09:31.97\00:09:34.74
Do you forgive
easily or lightly?
00:09:34.77\00:09:37.94
I remember hearing a
worship talk one day,
00:09:37.97\00:09:41.14
where the speaker
made the point that
00:09:41.18\00:09:43.24
we need to be able to forgive
00:09:43.28\00:09:45.91
to the same degree and
depth, that we've been wounded.
00:09:45.95\00:09:49.68
How would you comment on that?
00:09:49.72\00:09:51.62
Very true.
00:09:51.65\00:09:53.05
Thoughts about the
whole forgiveness thing
00:09:53.09\00:09:54.72
didn't come for me
for months afterward.
00:09:54.76\00:09:57.93
And it wasn't
until the following--
00:09:57.96\00:09:59.63
I think I was just
overwhelmed initially by grief.
00:09:59.66\00:10:02.73
And for months went by
00:10:02.76\00:10:06.00
with significant
personality changes.
00:10:06.03\00:10:08.60
I've always been a
person who had lots of words
00:10:08.64\00:10:11.77
running through my head
00:10:11.81\00:10:13.34
and for months I
didn't have anything to say.
00:10:13.38\00:10:16.91
It just left me speechless.
00:10:16.95\00:10:18.71
And it wasn't until
the following spring,
00:10:18.75\00:10:21.55
when Anthony who had
been sentenced by then,
00:10:21.58\00:10:24.25
to life imprisonment without
the possibility of parole,
00:10:24.29\00:10:27.82
plus life
imprisoned, plus twenty years.
00:10:27.86\00:10:30.73
Wow.
00:10:30.76\00:10:32.09
It wasn't until the following
spring when he appealed
00:10:32.13\00:10:36.26
and he wanted to change
his sentence to not guilty
00:10:36.30\00:10:40.10
and he wanted his--
his sentences reduced.
00:10:40.14\00:10:45.14
That's what triggered my need
00:10:45.17\00:10:47.38
to look for some
kind of forgiveness.
00:10:47.41\00:10:48.94
And so for those
first several months,
00:10:48.98\00:10:51.08
it was all dealing with my
own sadness and loss and grief.
00:10:51.11\00:10:55.72
You know sometimes we
think that it's easier
00:10:55.75\00:10:57.59
to forgive a person
when they show some remorse
00:10:57.62\00:11:00.92
or sorrow for what they've done.
00:11:00.96\00:11:03.96
So tell me about
Anthony Robinson.
00:11:03.99\00:11:05.93
Did he show any remorse?
00:11:05.96\00:11:09.53
We didn't have any
personal contact with him
00:11:09.56\00:11:12.10
until his court appearances.
00:11:12.13\00:11:15.50
And we went back to
D.C. when he was sentenced.
00:11:15.54\00:11:19.31
At that time,
00:11:19.34\00:11:21.24
he sat through the
testimony by the detectives
00:11:21.28\00:11:25.61
and the
psychologists and psychiatrists
00:11:25.65\00:11:27.92
with whom he had spent some time
00:11:27.95\00:11:29.82
being examined and evaluated.
00:11:29.85\00:11:32.85
And he sat inattentive.
00:11:32.89\00:11:36.32
Didn't look like he
was paying much attention,
00:11:36.36\00:11:37.93
wasn't engaged very much
00:11:37.96\00:11:39.29
until the States attorney
00:11:39.33\00:11:41.90
at the end of
all of this testimony
00:11:41.93\00:11:43.87
made his final
appeal to the judge.
00:11:43.90\00:11:48.37
And in a very vigorous way,
00:11:48.40\00:11:51.67
concluded his
statement to the judge
00:11:51.71\00:11:54.64
by pointing at
Anthony and saying,
00:11:54.68\00:11:56.98
"This man, who has
committed this heinous crime,
00:11:57.01\00:12:01.42
needs to spend
the rest of his life
00:12:01.45\00:12:05.15
in his own private hell."
00:12:05.19\00:12:08.26
And at that Anthony looked up,
00:12:08.29\00:12:10.09
and gave the
attorney an obscene gesture.
00:12:10.13\00:12:13.29
Wow.
00:12:13.33\00:12:14.66
So, that was our visual image
00:12:14.70\00:12:19.20
and contact with Anthony.
00:12:19.23\00:12:21.34
No remorse.
00:12:21.37\00:12:22.70
There was no indication
of it at that point anyway.
00:12:22.74\00:12:24.97
Yeah, yeah.
00:12:25.01\00:12:26.61
Well, I know that different
people grieve differently
00:12:26.64\00:12:30.48
and I'd like to ask you
a little bit about that,
00:12:30.51\00:12:32.95
but before we do
we're gonna take a break
00:12:32.98\00:12:36.55
and we're going to
learn how we can get hold
00:12:36.58\00:12:40.22
of Darold's book
"A Time to Forgive."
00:12:40.26\00:12:43.76
What do you do when your
daughter has been murdered
00:12:47.86\00:12:50.17
hundreds of miles away?
00:12:50.20\00:12:52.07
Do you leave her cold
and alone in the morgue
00:12:52.10\00:12:54.64
or do you bring her home?
00:12:54.67\00:12:56.60
How do you feel
when the funeral is over
00:12:56.64\00:12:58.84
and you watch her disappear
from you for the last time
00:12:58.87\00:13:01.94
as a funeral director lowers
00:13:01.98\00:13:03.88
and latches the lid of a coffin.
00:13:03.91\00:13:06.08
Where was God when
the murderer attacked her
00:13:06.11\00:13:08.48
and what on earth does
God's expecting of you now.
00:13:08.52\00:13:11.85
In this masterful
book on forgiveness,
00:13:11.89\00:13:14.39
Darold Bigger shares his
struggle to come to terms
00:13:14.42\00:13:17.63
with his daughter's murder
00:13:17.66\00:13:19.19
and provides a unique look
at the issue of forgiveness
00:13:19.23\00:13:22.70
and a refreshing look at love.
00:13:22.73\00:13:24.87
To get your copy of
"A Time to Forgive,"
00:13:24.90\00:13:28.20
you can call 1800-765-6955.
00:13:28.24\00:13:33.31
Stop by your local
Adventist Book Center
00:13:33.34\00:13:36.14
or order online
00:13:36.18\00:13:37.81
at www.AdventistBookCenter.com
00:13:37.85\00:13:43.22
Welcome back to
Stones of Remembrance,
00:13:45.12\00:13:47.32
with our guest Darold Bigger,
00:13:47.36\00:13:49.42
who is speaking to
us today about a topic
00:13:49.46\00:13:51.36
that's very, very difficult,
the gift of forgiveness,
00:13:51.39\00:13:55.50
the whole subject is
one that is very hard
00:13:55.53\00:13:58.40
for most of us to deal with.
00:13:58.43\00:14:00.94
Darold, before we went to break
00:14:00.97\00:14:02.30
we just touched
briefly on grieving.
00:14:02.34\00:14:04.91
And could you tell me,
00:14:04.94\00:14:06.47
especially, that
first year you and Barbara,
00:14:06.51\00:14:10.38
how-- did you grieve the same,
did you grieve differently?
00:14:10.41\00:14:13.52
No, the two of us are
different from one another
00:14:13.55\00:14:15.78
and our daughter,
surviving daughter
00:14:15.82\00:14:19.42
quite differently
from either one of us.
00:14:19.45\00:14:20.96
Yeah.
00:14:20.99\00:14:22.32
Barbara became very talkative
00:14:22.36\00:14:24.33
and interacted
with a lot of people
00:14:24.36\00:14:26.19
where she had been
very introverted before that
00:14:26.23\00:14:29.30
and I became the
one who retreated.
00:14:29.33\00:14:33.37
Sneaked out of
church out the side door,
00:14:33.40\00:14:36.04
didn't want to
visit with people,
00:14:36.07\00:14:38.97
it was quite a
shift for both of us.
00:14:39.01\00:14:40.71
So we ended up
living with people
00:14:40.74\00:14:42.64
who are quite different
00:14:42.68\00:14:44.01
that we had
gotten used to before.
00:14:44.05\00:14:45.48
Almost like a
personality change.
00:14:45.51\00:14:47.18
Very much so. Yeah.
00:14:47.22\00:14:48.55
Yeah, yeah.
00:14:48.58\00:14:49.92
There was something remarkable
that what I found remarkable
00:14:49.95\00:14:52.65
that you wrote in
the preface of your book
00:14:52.69\00:14:54.89
"A Time to Forgive."
00:14:54.92\00:14:56.52
You wrote and you said
00:14:56.56\00:14:58.43
"Ever since Shannon was killed,
00:14:58.46\00:15:00.13
Barbara and I have
committed ourselves
00:15:00.16\00:15:02.36
to sharing how good
God has been to us."
00:15:02.40\00:15:06.00
I think that is remarkable.
00:15:06.03\00:15:07.37
It is powerful.
00:15:07.40\00:15:08.74
You've just lost your daughter
00:15:08.77\00:15:10.47
and you've made that
commitment to sharing
00:15:10.51\00:15:12.57
with other people
how good God has been.
00:15:12.61\00:15:14.81
How on earth do you get,
from this unimaginable pain
00:15:14.84\00:15:19.75
to sharing God's goodness?
00:15:19.78\00:15:21.25
What is the bridge?
00:15:21.28\00:15:22.62
It's a choice,
00:15:22.65\00:15:23.99
it is a matter
of what prospective
00:15:24.02\00:15:25.72
you take at the world,
00:15:25.75\00:15:27.09
how you interpret
circumstances that you face
00:15:27.12\00:15:29.99
and challenges that
threat and overwhelm you.
00:15:30.03\00:15:34.36
One chooses to
look for the good things
00:15:34.40\00:15:37.73
instead of just the bad things.
00:15:37.77\00:15:39.53
So, we were
surrounded by friends,
00:15:39.57\00:15:42.47
families who
were very supportive,
00:15:42.50\00:15:45.17
promises of God got us
through these difficult times
00:15:45.21\00:15:48.28
and we look for
the distant future
00:15:48.31\00:15:51.21
instead of just
the temporary things.
00:15:51.25\00:15:53.88
Yeah.
00:15:53.92\00:15:55.25
These are
important reminders for us.
00:15:55.28\00:15:57.12
We had a friend who
remind us of the phrase
00:15:57.15\00:16:00.02
embedded in the 23 Psalm.
00:16:00.06\00:16:02.92
"Even when I walk through
the valley of the shadow death,
00:16:02.96\00:16:06.70
I will fear no evil."
00:16:06.73\00:16:08.06
Yes.
00:16:08.10\00:16:09.43
So it isn't that we
don't have these bad times,
00:16:09.46\00:16:11.33
it is that God walks
with us in those moments.
00:16:11.37\00:16:16.77
Now as preachers we
know that it's one thing
00:16:16.81\00:16:19.97
to share a personal story,
00:16:20.01\00:16:22.21
a challenge in
a preaching moment
00:16:22.24\00:16:24.05
or in the classroom
because you still you own it.
00:16:24.08\00:16:27.68
It's your story,
but to write it down
00:16:27.72\00:16:30.42
means that you're
willing to let it free,
00:16:30.45\00:16:33.22
and to let other
people have access to it
00:16:33.25\00:16:34.82
and you don't
have the same control.
00:16:34.86\00:16:36.52
What was the
process like that for you?
00:16:36.56\00:16:38.39
Well, it was a
surprise to me actually
00:16:38.43\00:16:41.13
because we, Barbara
and I had done weekends
00:16:41.16\00:16:45.00
and seminars and camp meetings
00:16:45.03\00:16:47.40
about our experience.
00:16:47.44\00:16:48.77
So, we talked about it a lot.
00:16:48.80\00:16:50.67
But there was something
different about writing it down
00:16:50.71\00:16:53.88
and then letting go of that
00:16:53.91\00:16:56.54
as if it was no
longer mine or ours.
00:16:56.58\00:17:01.18
It becomes the
experience of anyone
00:17:01.22\00:17:04.15
who wishes to
participate in that now.
00:17:04.19\00:17:06.86
And our real hope
is that God can bring
00:17:06.89\00:17:10.63
encouragement to other
people as He has to us.
00:17:10.66\00:17:14.70
That's our wish.
00:17:14.73\00:17:16.93
Amen.
00:17:16.97\00:17:18.30
Amen, you know,
00:17:18.33\00:17:19.83
we spoke about the "The Stones
of Remembrance" didn't we?
00:17:19.87\00:17:24.04
And Darold, the
book I see is something
00:17:24.07\00:17:29.04
that we can hold
and touch and the things
00:17:29.08\00:17:33.18
that we experience
but it is that experience
00:17:33.21\00:17:36.18
that we have in the river.
00:17:36.22\00:17:37.95
When the water
covers over it again,
00:17:37.99\00:17:40.29
it's not seen but
that alter is still there,
00:17:40.32\00:17:42.66
those things that we remember
00:17:42.69\00:17:44.46
are still there and
they shape our message.
00:17:44.49\00:17:49.16
And you said you made a choice
00:17:49.20\00:17:51.47
to focus on how good God
has been and that is your alter,
00:17:51.50\00:17:58.11
your stones of remembrance.
00:17:58.14\00:18:00.31
Yeah, very true.
00:18:00.34\00:18:01.68
What an incredible story.
00:18:01.71\00:18:03.04
And it led to several
incremental steps of things
00:18:03.08\00:18:05.41
we had never anticipated before.
00:18:05.45\00:18:06.95
I would like as a theoretician,
as a teacher or preacher,
00:18:06.98\00:18:12.12
I would like to tell you
00:18:12.15\00:18:13.49
I thought all of this
subject through ahead of time
00:18:13.52\00:18:15.66
and then illustrated it
from life's experiences.
00:18:15.69\00:18:18.39
It was not that way for me.
00:18:18.43\00:18:19.76
The whole-
00:18:19.79\00:18:21.13
And if it isn't
that trip, real life,
00:18:21.16\00:18:22.56
real life is not that
way, it's unscripted isn't it?
00:18:22.60\00:18:25.63
Yeah.
00:18:25.67\00:18:27.37
Yeah and the
circumstance pushed me
00:18:27.40\00:18:30.21
to deal with the subjects
in a way I had not before
00:18:30.24\00:18:33.27
and it led us
and some colleagues
00:18:33.31\00:18:37.21
and the social work
departmental at Walla Walla
00:18:37.25\00:18:39.15
developed a
workshop around forgiveness
00:18:39.18\00:18:42.18
and added a spiritual component
to some good psychological,
00:18:42.22\00:18:46.32
sociological training
that's already in existence.
00:18:46.35\00:18:49.49
So, we developed a DVD workshop.
00:18:50.59\00:18:52.46
It's a companion to the book.
00:18:52.49\00:18:54.26
The book rises out of those--
out of those months of thinking
00:18:54.30\00:18:59.03
and reading and
praying and sorting things out.
00:18:59.07\00:19:02.74
And it's been a
wonderful journey.
00:19:02.77\00:19:05.04
That's freed me up in other ways
00:19:05.07\00:19:06.64
not just in my dealing
with my anger toward Anthony.
00:19:06.68\00:19:10.71
But in my understanding
of who God is. Yes.
00:19:10.75\00:19:13.98
And how we relate to God,
00:19:14.02\00:19:15.65
it's reinforced
the whole message
00:19:15.68\00:19:17.29
of
righteousness by faith for me.
00:19:17.32\00:19:20.39
That we trust God
to take care of us,
00:19:20.42\00:19:22.22
we don't have to do
these things on our own.
00:19:22.26\00:19:24.09
Right. Right.
00:19:24.13\00:19:25.59
So, all of that
is wonderful. Sorry.
00:19:25.63\00:19:27.50
Help us with-no problem;
00:19:27.53\00:19:28.86
help us with what forgiveness
is and what it isn't?
00:19:28.90\00:19:33.47
I think when we hear
the title of the book,
00:19:33.50\00:19:36.14
that notion of forgiveness
may be different for everyone.
00:19:36.17\00:19:38.87
So, help us out with
first, what it isn't?
00:19:38.91\00:19:42.71
Yeah. And then what it is?
00:19:42.74\00:19:44.28
Well, I think
that a lot of reasons
00:19:44.31\00:19:47.32
that we struggle with the
whole subject of forgiveness
00:19:47.35\00:19:49.38
is that we miss
understand what it requires.
00:19:49.42\00:19:51.79
It does not mean
that we obliterate
00:19:51.82\00:19:53.79
all the bad things in the world
and pretend they don't exist.
00:19:53.82\00:19:56.89
So, we don't ignore the bad,
00:19:56.93\00:19:59.13
we don't say there
are no consequences
00:19:59.16\00:20:01.63
for choices that I make
00:20:01.66\00:20:03.23
that impinge on
another person's life.
00:20:03.26\00:20:05.37
All of those things are
realities of our existence,
00:20:05.40\00:20:07.97
so we can't run away from that.
00:20:08.00\00:20:10.81
So, forgiveness
is not forgetting,
00:20:10.84\00:20:12.87
it's not ignoring,
it's not pardoning,
00:20:12.91\00:20:16.14
it's not excusing
what people have done.
00:20:16.18\00:20:19.11
But what it does do is that
it frees us as the survivors
00:20:19.15\00:20:24.49
and I've had students
in my forgiveness class
00:20:24.52\00:20:27.09
that I've started
teaching here very recently,
00:20:27.12\00:20:29.29
that students tell me
they like the word survivor
00:20:29.32\00:20:31.63
rather than victim.
00:20:31.66\00:20:33.63
So, rather than
being a victim of offences,
00:20:33.66\00:20:37.03
we become survivors
of those experiences
00:20:37.07\00:20:40.40
and what forgiveness
does is allow us to let go
00:20:40.44\00:20:43.37
of the anger and resentment,
00:20:43.41\00:20:46.44
that is there and
it frees us from that.
00:20:46.47\00:20:50.28
And forgiveness turns us toward
an ultimate long term solution,
00:20:50.31\00:20:54.52
kind of changes are
perspective on life,
00:20:54.55\00:20:56.45
comes back to the choice again.
00:20:56.48\00:20:57.95
Yes.
00:20:57.99\00:20:59.32
So, in the third
section of the book
00:20:59.35\00:21:00.69
I include a series
of reflection exercises
00:21:00.72\00:21:03.83
that for me, help reinforce
a different perspective
00:21:03.86\00:21:09.60
on the challenges
we face in this world.
00:21:09.63\00:21:12.03
So, is forgiveness a gift?
00:21:12.07\00:21:13.94
I'm going to say
yes, but with a caveat.
00:21:17.21\00:21:20.61
I think there are some
instances in which people
00:21:20.64\00:21:22.71
can forgive, less
traumatic events in life
00:21:22.74\00:21:26.41
they can do that
with a natural process.
00:21:26.45\00:21:29.15
But for those
things that traumatizes
00:21:29.18\00:21:31.52
or for some of us
who are in trouble,
00:21:31.55\00:21:34.06
we need a miraculous
supernatural intervention
00:21:34.09\00:21:38.26
on the part of God in
order to be able to let go
00:21:38.29\00:21:40.96
of our anger and resentment.
00:21:41.00\00:21:42.90
And in that sense, that's
why I say forgiveness is a gift.
00:21:42.93\00:21:47.47
Yeah.
00:21:47.50\00:21:48.84
But that is so refreshing to me,
00:21:48.87\00:21:50.91
it-- you know sometimes
in our sincerity and honesty
00:21:50.94\00:21:54.68
to want to be good Christians
00:21:54.71\00:21:56.34
we think I know that
I need to forgive them
00:21:56.38\00:21:58.71
and we try and white-knuckle
our way to forgiveness
00:21:58.75\00:22:02.68
and that doesn't
really work, does it?
00:22:02.72\00:22:06.45
No, and in fact,
it distorts not only
00:22:06.49\00:22:08.62
our perspective of the situation
00:22:08.66\00:22:11.89
but it distorts
the character of God.
00:22:11.93\00:22:14.83
It's a misunderstanding
00:22:14.86\00:22:16.56
of that phrase in the
Lord's Prayer, for example,
00:22:16.60\00:22:18.93
that says we will-that we
ask God to forgive our sins,
00:22:18.97\00:22:22.64
as we have forgiven
others that make it sound
00:22:22.67\00:22:24.27
like its our job to do it first
00:22:24.31\00:22:26.98
and God then reacts based
on how well we do our work.
00:22:27.01\00:22:31.11
What a horrible
view of God that creates.
00:22:31.15\00:22:33.65
Yeah.
00:22:33.68\00:22:35.02
So, I've come to
a new understanding
00:22:35.05\00:22:37.39
of that Lord's
Prayer and the reminder
00:22:37.42\00:22:40.36
from Colossians, for
example, where Paul says
00:22:40.39\00:22:43.19
"We ought to
forgive one another,
00:22:43.22\00:22:44.89
as God has
forgiven us in Jesus."
00:22:44.93\00:22:48.90
Yes, you have some amazing
thoughts there on forgiveness
00:22:48.93\00:22:51.23
now we're running out
of time unfortunately.
00:22:51.27\00:22:53.97
If someone's reading
your book for the first time
00:22:54.00\00:22:56.27
or even struggling with
this idea of forgiveness,
00:22:56.30\00:22:59.14
and you just got a few minutes
to share something with them,
00:22:59.17\00:23:01.81
what do you want them to walk
away from this program with?
00:23:01.84\00:23:05.45
Well, one thing I
better do is finish the story,
00:23:05.48\00:23:09.22
Anthony, the following spring
00:23:09.25\00:23:12.72
wanted to change
his plea to not guilty,
00:23:12.75\00:23:15.06
wanted his sentences reduced
00:23:15.09\00:23:16.56
and that trigged in
me some intense anger.
00:23:16.59\00:23:20.50
I went for weeks
with knots in my stomach,
00:23:20.53\00:23:23.83
jaw tight and
clinched, fists tense.
00:23:23.87\00:23:29.47
I was teaching at the
time, stress management class
00:23:29.50\00:23:32.71
at the university,
isn't that a paradox?
00:23:32.74\00:23:35.84
And the following quarter,
00:23:35.88\00:23:37.68
I taught a
Christian spirituality course
00:23:37.71\00:23:40.92
where we talked about prayer
00:23:40.95\00:23:42.62
and surrendering
your-- life to God,
00:23:42.65\00:23:44.89
as ever so I knew
what I ought to be doing
00:23:44.92\00:23:47.52
to take care of this.
00:23:47.56\00:23:49.12
Nothing worked for me.
00:23:49.16\00:23:51.73
And after
several weeks of failing
00:23:51.76\00:23:54.83
to be able to let go
of that rage inside of me,
00:23:54.86\00:23:59.23
I sat in church
on Sabbath morning
00:23:59.27\00:24:02.20
and the same chaplain who had
00:24:02.24\00:24:04.71
told us about
Shannon's death previous summer,
00:24:04.74\00:24:08.48
spoke about how Jesus
invites us to love one another,
00:24:08.51\00:24:12.85
and to love our enemies.
00:24:12.88\00:24:14.95
And I felt like a
spiritually bankrupt person.
00:24:14.98\00:24:18.85
I could not do what
God wanted me to do.
00:24:18.89\00:24:23.22
And at the instant that I
felt so horrible about myself,
00:24:23.26\00:24:28.26
I remembered another text
00:24:28.30\00:24:31.33
where Paul in
Romans 5 reminds us
00:24:31.37\00:24:34.34
that "While we were still
sinners Christ died for us."
00:24:34.37\00:24:40.38
And in an especially
profound way that morning
00:24:40.41\00:24:44.25
I sensed my own need
00:24:44.28\00:24:48.22
and at the moment
00:24:48.25\00:24:51.69
God's
forgiveness washed over me,
00:24:51.72\00:24:54.26
the knots on my
stomach disappeared,
00:24:54.29\00:24:56.79
my clenched fist relaxed
00:24:56.83\00:25:00.23
and on the way out
of church that morning
00:25:00.26\00:25:04.00
another grievance that I
had carried for a long time,
00:25:04.03\00:25:07.60
I recognize was gone.
00:25:07.64\00:25:10.11
So, that has lead
me to remind myself
00:25:10.14\00:25:13.24
that no matter what bad
things happen to us in life,
00:25:13.27\00:25:16.88
Jesus can take care of those.
00:25:16.91\00:25:19.11
"In this life we'll
have trouble but take heart
00:25:19.15\00:25:22.82
I have over come
the world" says Jesus.
00:25:22.85\00:25:25.85
And He over comes our
troubles by giving us the gift
00:25:25.89\00:25:29.92
of forgiveness, that
ability to forgive one another
00:25:29.96\00:25:34.36
as Christ has forgiven us
as Paul says in Colossians.
00:25:34.40\00:25:40.04
So, I would wish your viewers
00:25:40.07\00:25:43.34
might hang on to
that wonderful gift
00:25:43.37\00:25:46.04
as a way of dealing
with their disappointments
00:25:46.07\00:25:48.34
and frustrations in life,
00:25:48.38\00:25:50.11
that they might look to
Jesus as the ultimate solution
00:25:50.15\00:25:53.52
for their challenges and
find in Him the rest and relief
00:25:53.55\00:25:58.12
that we have found.
00:25:58.15\00:25:59.99
Yes. In following him.
00:26:00.02\00:26:02.29
Yes.
00:26:02.32\00:26:03.66
We thank you for sharing a part
of your story with us today,
00:26:04.33\00:26:08.76
for your transparency
and for your honesty,
00:26:08.80\00:26:11.77
and I think one of things
that you've really helped us
00:26:11.80\00:26:14.04
to remember since this is
the "Stones of Remembrance"
00:26:14.07\00:26:17.27
to remember that in order
for us to forgive other people,
00:26:17.31\00:26:21.54
we first have to
recognize and accept the fact
00:26:21.58\00:26:24.11
that Christ first forgave us.
00:26:24.15\00:26:27.22
Our guest today on
"Stones of Remembrance"
00:26:27.25\00:26:29.68
has been Darold Bigger
from Walla Walla University
00:26:29.72\00:26:32.55
and we're reminded today
that the challenge of forgiving
00:26:32.59\00:26:36.09
is a challenge that we
all share as Christians.
00:26:36.12\00:26:40.46
And it's so important
for us to remember also
00:26:40.50\00:26:42.86
that in order for us
to forgive other people,
00:26:42.90\00:26:45.27
we need to access and lay hold
00:26:45.30\00:26:47.70
the Christ's forgiveness for us,
00:26:47.74\00:26:49.54
first if we confess our sins,
00:26:49.57\00:26:51.64
He's faithful and
just to forgive us.
00:26:51.67\00:26:53.94
For this episode of
"Stones of Remembrance,
00:26:53.98\00:26:56.01
"I'm Pierre Quinn and
for my co-host Karen Pearson,
00:26:56.04\00:26:59.11
we thank you and
we'll see you next time.
00:26:59.15\00:27:01.18
In Greek
mythology, the river Styx,
00:27:32.11\00:27:34.58
separated the land of
the living from Hades,
00:27:34.62\00:27:37.32
the abode of the dead.
00:27:37.35\00:27:39.15
When death came for you,
00:27:39.19\00:27:40.69
the ferryman carried you across
the river to the other side.
00:27:40.72\00:27:44.99
Are stories and myths
of ancient civilizations
00:27:45.03\00:27:47.83
enough for you
when it comes to death?
00:27:47.86\00:27:50.37
Or do you want to
really know what will happen
00:27:50.40\00:27:53.40
when you are left
alone in the graveyard?
00:27:53.44\00:27:56.54
Life is hard and then you die,
it's not just a bumper sticker
00:27:56.57\00:28:00.78
or an internet
mean, it's the truth.
00:28:00.81\00:28:03.85
But there is hope!
00:28:03.88\00:28:05.38
In "Draining Styx"
Pastor Shawn Boonstra shares
00:28:05.41\00:28:08.25
what really happens after death.
00:28:08.28\00:28:10.89
Quantity pricing is available,
00:28:10.92\00:28:13.15
to get your copy
of "Draining the Styx"
00:28:13.19\00:28:16.09
call 1-800-765-6955,
00:28:16.12\00:28:21.16
stop by your local
Adventist Book Center
00:28:21.20\00:28:23.70
or order online today
at AdvenistBookCenter.com
00:28:23.73\00:28:28.47