Participants: Pr. Stephen Bohr
Series Code: SOD
Program Code: SOD000011
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00:01 If a man dies, shall he live again?
00:07 What does it mean to be absent from the body 00:09 and present with the Lord? 00:13 Did Jesus go with a thief to paradise on Good Friday? 00:19 Did the souls of dead people 00:21 really cry out from below the altar? 00:25 Pastor Bohr answers these questions 00:27 and more in the amazing series. 00:34 Shall we bow our heads for prayer? 00:38 Father in Heaven, once again 00:39 we thank You for the awesome privilege 00:43 of coming into Your presence 00:45 to open up the book that You inspired 00:48 through ministration of Your Holy Spirit. 00:51 Father, we're gonna speak about 00:53 some very solemn things this evening 00:56 and there fore we need 00:57 the guidance of your Holy Spirit. 01:00 We ask Father, that You will remove 01:03 any preconceived notion that we have in our minds 01:05 and in our hearts 01:07 that would keep us from hearing Your voice. 01:10 Help us to understand Your word. 01:13 And we thank you Father, 01:14 for hearing and answering our prayer 01:15 for we ask it in Jesus name. Amen. 01:21 We are going to talk about today-- 01:25 the Undying Worm and the Unquenchable Fire. 01:32 Now, when we deal with this topic a question comes up. 01:37 You know, those who have watched 01:38 the previous presentations in the series say okay. 01:42 So you are saying when a person dies 01:45 they're dead until the resurrection. 01:47 When they resurrect 01:49 if they were good they will go to heaven 01:51 and if they were wicked 01:53 they're not going to live forever they will to hell 01:55 and they will burn for a while and then they'll burn out. 01:59 So how do you explain 02:01 those difficult passages of scripture 02:04 that speak about the everlasting fire, 02:07 everlasting destruction, the worm that doesn't die, 02:12 the fire that is not quenched? 02:14 You see, we can't finish the series 02:16 with out dealing with these very difficult passages. 02:20 We're not trying to sweep 02:22 the difficult passages under the rug. 02:25 We have to face these 02:26 and we have to resolve the problems 02:29 that they bring forth. 02:31 I'd like to invite you to open your Bibles with me 02:34 to Matthew 25:41. 02:37 We're going to examine four of those difficult texts 02:41 as we begin our study today. 02:44 Matthew 25:41, 02:47 its speaking now here about the goats that Jesus placed 02:50 at His left side in the Day of Judgment. 02:53 It says, "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 02:58 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire 03:04 prepared for the devil and his angels'." 03:08 So you say clearest day, 03:10 they're cast into the everlasting fire. 03:13 What part of that don't you understand? 03:16 Then we have Matthew 25:46, 03:20 speaking once again about the goats, 03:22 we are told "And these will go away 03:26 into everlasting punishment, 03:30 but the righteous into eternal life." 03:33 So people will say, see they go into everlasting punishment. 03:37 They're gonna be punished forever and ever and ever. 03:41 And we notice that they're going to be 03:43 burn with everlasting fire. 03:45 Now, what part of that don't you understand people say? 03:48 Well, you see things are not always 03:51 as they might appear on the surface. 03:53 We have to look at these expressions carefully. 03:56 2 Thessalonians 1:9, 10. 04:02 2 Thessalonians 1:9, 10 04:05 it's another one of these difficult expressions. 04:09 Speaking about the wicked it says, 04:11 "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction 04:17 from the presence of the Lord 04:19 and from the glory of His power." 04:21 Notice once again everlasting destruction. 04:25 And so some people say, 04:27 see the wicked are going to be destroyed forever and ever 04:31 because they're punished with everlasting destruction. 04:35 Let's notice one further passage. 04:38 This is found in Mark Chapter 9 beginning with verse 43 04:43 and it continues till verse 48 04:46 but I am only going to read a few verses at the beginning 04:49 because the rest of the verses merely repeat the same idea. 04:54 See it begins by speaking about the right hand, 04:58 then it speaks about the foot, 05:00 finally it speaks about the eye. 05:01 I am only gonna read about the right hand 05:03 because every bit is the same, 05:05 same thing about the foot and the eye. 05:07 Notice what it says there, 05:09 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. 05:14 It is better for you to enter into life maimed, 05:18 rather than having two hands, to go to hell." 05:22 That is to gain up. 05:23 "Into the fire that shall never be quenched." 05:27 Now I must tell you that, 05:29 that word never doesn't appear in the Greek language. 05:33 It is added by the translators. 05:36 In the Greek it simply says, 05:38 "Into the fire that shall not be quenched" 05:42 or "that is not quenched better." 05:45 The word never is not there. 05:47 And then it says in verse 44 05:49 "Where 'Their worm does not die, 05:52 and the fire is not quenched." 05:55 Notice that it doesn't say that "the worm will never die 05:58 and the fire will never be quenched." 06:00 It says, where the worm does not die, 06:03 while it's eating and the fire is not quenched 06:07 while it is burning. 06:10 Now, the greatest problem text of all 06:12 is found in Revelation 20:10, Revelation 20:10. 06:20 This is speaking about 06:22 the final punishment of the devil especially. 06:25 And it says speaking about the devil 06:28 "The devil, who deceived them, 06:30 was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone 06:34 where the beast and the false prophet are." 06:37 Actually a better translation is 06:39 where the beast and the false prophet were cast 06:43 before the thousand years. 06:45 "And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." 06:50 See somebody says see there is gonna be 06:53 torment forever and ever. 06:56 Now the question is how do we deal 06:58 with these difficult expressions? 07:00 Everlasting fire, everlasting punishment, 07:03 everlasting destruction-- 07:05 the fire that is not quenched, the worm that that doesn't die. 07:09 They shall be torment forever and ever. 07:11 How do we deal with these expressions? 07:14 The fact is that when we study scripture carefully 07:17 there is an explanation different 07:19 than the explanation that most Christians 07:22 give to these expressions. 07:24 Let's solve first of all 07:26 the issue of the everlasting fire, 07:29 the everlasting destruction. 07:32 Go with me 07:35 and we'll also read verse 28. 07:38 Genesis 19:24 and then we will jump down to verse 28. 07:43 It's speaking here about 07:45 the Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah 07:47 and we find the following words. 07:50 "Then the Lord rained" fire or "brimstone 07:55 and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, 07:59 from the Lord out of the heavens." 08:01 Now, notice the expressions brimstone, fire 08:05 where did it come from? 08:07 From the Lord. Out of where? 08:09 Out of the heavens, remember that. 08:11 Verse 28 this is the aftermath of the fire. 08:16 It says there that, 08:18 "Abraham looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, 08:22 and toward all the land of the plain, 08:25 and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land 08:29 which went up like the smoke of a furnace." 08:34 So you have this fire and brimstone 08:36 that comes from the Lord out of heaven 08:39 it falls on Sodom and Gomorrah 08:41 and then the smoke ascends like the smoke of a furnace. 08:47 Now go with me to Jude 7 where the quality of fire 08:51 that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is spoken off. 08:54 Jude 7. 08:56 We only mention the verse 08:58 because this book has only one chapter. 09:01 So it says there in Jude 7 "As Sodom and Gomorrah, 09:05 and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, 09:09 having given themselves over to sexual immorality 09:14 and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, 09:18 suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." 09:23 What kind of fire burns Sodom and Gomorrah? 09:27 The Bible says that it was eternal fire 09:29 that burned Sodom and Gomorrah. 09:32 And yet we find some thing very interesting in 2 Peter 2:6. 09:38 Go with me there to 2 Peter 2:6 09:41 just a few pages before Jude 7. 09:44 It says there, 09:46 "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah." 09:49 Into what? 09:51 "Ashes, condemned them to destruction, 09:54 making them an example 09:56 to those who afterward would live ungodly." 10:00 So you've the strange paradox. 10:02 The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah 10:03 were destroyed with eternal fire. 10:06 And yet the Bible says that they were reduced to what? 10:09 They were reduced to ashes. 10:12 Now let me ask you what are ashes? 10:14 Can you burn ashes? 10:16 No you can't burn ashes. 10:18 Ashes are the result that comes from 10:22 when the fire has already done its complete work. 10:25 In other words, when there is nothing more 10:28 to be burned you have what? 10:30 You have ashes. 10:31 So you'll say, how could Sodom and Gomorrah 10:33 have been burned with eternal fire 10:36 and yet be reduced to ashes 10:39 and at least have the fire go out 10:41 when Sodom and Gomorrah were burned up. 10:44 How do we explain this? 10:47 Well, generally the explanation that is been given 10:50 even with in the Adventists church 10:52 is that the fire was eternal in the results that it produced. 10:56 In other words, the fire produced eternal destruction. 11:01 In other words, it produced complete destruction. 11:05 But I believe that we need to go one step beyond this. 11:10 It is true that the fire reduced Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes. 11:15 In other words, Sodom and Gomorrah 11:16 didn't continue burning the fire there went out. 11:20 But, what I want to show you now 11:21 is that the fire that burned Sodom and Gomorrah 11:24 actually never went out. 11:25 Sodom and Gomorrah did 11:27 but the fire that burnt them did not. 11:29 You'll say, now what're you talking about? 11:32 You're contradicting yourself. 11:34 Well, let's notice what the Bible has to say. 11:37 Deuteronomy 4:23, 24, 11:41 Deuteronomy 4:23, 24. 11:46 Here God is speaking to Israel about the dangerous idolatry. 11:50 "Take heed to yourselves, 11:52 lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your God 11:55 which He made with you, and make for yourselves 11:58 a carved image in the form of anything 12:01 which the Lord your God has forbidden you." 12:03 In other words, don't practice idolatry. 12:05 And now, notice verse 24 12:08 "For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, 12:13 a jealous God." 12:15 What is the consuming fire? 12:17 God is the consuming fire according to this. 12:22 How long has God been a consuming fire? 12:25 Only since He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah right? 12:28 Was God a consuming fire before that? Yes. 12:31 Is He a consuming fire after that? Yes. 12:35 Notice Hebrews 12:28, 29, Hebrews 12:28, 29. 12:41 It's saying same basic thing 12:43 that we noticed in Deuteronomy 4:23, 24. 12:48 It says there "Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom 12:52 which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, 12:55 by which we may serve God 12:57 acceptably with reverence and godly fear." 13:01 Now, why should we serve God with reverence and godly fear? 13:05 Verse 29 "For our God is a consuming fire." 13:12 Who is the fire? 13:13 God is the fire according to the scripture. 13:16 So you are saying, are you saying Pastor Bohr, 13:18 then that God is a bunch of flames? No. 13:22 You see the fire is an illustration 13:25 of something that God is in His person. 13:29 You'll say, what is that? Go with me Exodus 24:15-17. 13:35 Exodus 24:15-17 13:39 it's speaking about Israel at the foot of Mount Sinai. 13:43 And we're told about how Moses 13:46 went up to the top of the mountain. 13:48 It says there in Verse 15 13:50 "Then Moses went up into the mountain, 13:53 and a cloud covered the mountain." 13:56 Now, notice this, 13:57 "Now the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai." 14:01 What was it that rested on Mount Sinai? 14:04 "The glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai, 14:07 and the cloud covered it six days." 14:09 Praise the Lord, because if the cloud 14:11 hasn't covered the mountain, 14:12 nobody would've remained alive among the Israelites. 14:15 Continues saying, "And on the seventh day 14:18 He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud." 14:22 Verse 17 "The sight of the glory of the Lord 14:26 was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain 14:31 in the eyes of the children of Israel." 14:33 Let me ask you, what-- 14:35 in what sense is God the consuming fire? 14:39 Verse 17 says "The sight of the glory of the Lord 14:43 was like a consuming fire." 14:45 So what is the consuming fire aspect of God? 14:50 It is His what? It is His glory. 14:54 You see the Bible says that 14:55 God is surrounded by a glorious light 14:58 which is unapproachable to sinful human beings. 15:02 In fact if you go with me to Revelation 15:2 15:06 you will find a description of the place 15:08 where the throne of God is found. 15:11 Right before the throne is a sea 15:13 that looks like glass mingled with fire. 15:15 Now have you ever seen a sea that's so crystal clear 15:19 that it looks like it's mingled with fire? 15:22 Doesn't seem to make sense, 15:23 water and fire don't mix, right. 15:25 Notice Revelation 15:2, 15:28 "And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, 15:33 and those who have the victory 15:34 over the beast, over his image and over his mark 15:36 and over the number of his name, 15:38 standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God." 15:42 In what sense was the sea of glass mingled with fire? 15:45 Well, if you read the context 15:47 you will notice that the throne of God 15:49 is above that lake of water or that sea of glass 15:55 and the glory of God reflex in the sea of glass 15:58 and it makes it look like it is glass mingled with fire 16:05 because of the glory of God that shines in it. 16:09 So my question is, when we are told 16:13 that Sodom, Gomorrah were destroyed with eternal fire 16:18 is the fire that burned Sodom and Gomorrah 16:21 still burning today? Of course it is. 16:26 Because who is the consuming fire? 16:29 God is the consuming fire. What is not burning is what? 16:33 Sodom and Gomorrah, they went out. 16:37 You'll notice that the expression everlasting fire 16:41 does not say that those who are being burned are everlasting 16:45 it is the fire that is everlasting. 16:47 Because the fire is God's what? God's glory. 16:51 Are you with me or not? 16:54 What does everlasting punishment mean? 16:56 It simple means that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed 16:58 and they'll never rise again. 17:00 Their punishment lasted forever. 17:02 Its not that they are being punished 17:04 and punished and punished continually forever and ever 17:07 the Bible simply is saying that they were punished 17:10 and they stayed punished forever. 17:12 In other words, their punishment was eternal. 17:15 And as to the expression, everlasting destruction 17:18 it means that they were destroyed 17:20 and they were remained destroyed forever. 17:23 It's not the process of destruction, 17:25 it's not the process of punishment that is eternal 17:28 it's the result of the punishment. 17:31 It's the result of the destruction 17:33 which lasts forever. 17:35 Now, what about the unquenchable fire? 17:39 The unquenchable fire is mentioned in Matthew 3:12, 17:45 Matthew 3:12, here it's-- 17:50 it's describing the work of John the Baptist his preaching 17:54 and you will notice here 17:56 that we are told in this verse speaking about the Messiah. 18:01 "His winnowing fan is in His hand, 18:05 and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, 18:10 and gather His wheat into the barn, 18:13 but He will burn up the chaff with." What? 18:16 "He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." 18:22 Do you know what chaff is? 18:25 Chaff is like dry grass, 18:29 dry weeds that you like fire to. 18:33 Let me ask you do they eventually burn out? 18:36 You better believe they do. 18:38 The fire rages it's not quenchable 18:41 because you can't put it out 18:43 but eventually you don't have to put it out 18:45 because it goes out because it's consumed 18:47 everything that is consumable. 18:51 Let me illustrate, some of you might remember 18:54 that day several years ago 18:56 when the Branch Davidian complex was burnt up in Waco. 19:01 I know I watched that on television. 19:03 There was this very strong wind that was blowing. 19:07 When that thing started when the fire started 19:11 there was no fire department in the world 19:13 that could have put out that fire 19:14 until that fire finished its work. 19:16 Because the fire just raged all of a sudden, 19:18 it took over all of the complex all of the building. 19:21 Let me ask you, was that fire unquenchable? Yes. 19:24 You will never find that the Bible says that it is-- 19:27 that it is eternal unquenchable fire. 19:30 It says that while the fire is burning it is unquenchable. 19:34 The fire that burnt the Branch Davidian complex 19:37 was unquenchable fire. 19:39 It doesn't mean that it was going to burn forever 19:41 it means that it couldn't be put out 19:43 until it finished its work. 19:45 By the way the Battle Creek Sanitarium in 1903 19:49 was burnt with unquenchable fire. 19:52 The fire chief, his last name was Weeks 19:54 wrote an article in the newspaper 19:56 after the sanitarium burned down 19:58 because the Review and Herald also burned down. 20:01 And he said, you know, these Adventists fires 20:03 are very, very strange 20:04 because when you pour water on them 20:06 it acts more like gasoline. 20:09 And Ellen White has seen an angel of God 20:11 with a sword of fire standing above Battle Creek. 20:13 In other words, that was a judgment of God. 20:16 And no one could put them out 20:17 until they had burned to the ground. 20:20 By the way, Eusebius the great church historian 20:23 mentions four individuals who are martyred. 20:26 Their names were Cronion, 20:28 Julian, Epimachus and Alexander. 20:32 And Eusebius says 20:33 that these martyrs's were slain with unquenchable fire. 20:39 So are they still burning today somewhere? 20:41 Of course, not. 20:42 They were burned with fire that could not be what? 20:46 Extinguished. 20:49 No where does it say eternal unquenchable fire. 20:53 That's an assumption that people make. 20:56 Now let's talk about the wicked being devoured. 21:00 Notice Malachi 4:1-3, Malachi 4:1-3. 21:07 You tell me if this sounds like the wicked 21:09 are going to burn and burn and burn forever and ever. 21:13 It says there, "For behold, the day is coming, 21:16 burning like an oven, and all the proud, 21:20 yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble." 21:24 Stubble burns real nice. 21:26 "And the day which is coming shall burn them up," 21:31 What part of that don't you understand, 21:32 shall burn them up. 21:35 "Says the Lord of hosts, 21:37 'That will leave them neither root nor branch." 21:40 By the way, the root is the devil 21:41 and the branches are his followers. 21:44 Verse 2 "But to you who fear My name 21:47 The Sun of Righteousness shall arise 21:49 With healing in His wings 21:50 and you shall go out and grow fat like stall-fed calves. 21:55 You shall trample the wicked, 21:57 for they shall be", now notice this 21:59 "they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet 22:03 on the day that I do this,' says the Lord of hosts." 22:07 What are the wicked gonna be reduced to? Ashes. 22:10 So how can they be burning forever 22:12 if they're going to be reduced to ashes? 22:14 The Bible says that they're gonna be burnt up. 22:17 The Bible says, they're gonna be like stubble. 22:20 "Neither root nor branch will be left." 22:24 Notice 22:27 about the destruction of the wicked. 22:29 it says, 22:33 "They went up on the breadth of the earth 22:35 and surrounded the camp of the saints 22:38 and the beloved city. 22:39 And fire came down from God 22:42 out of heaven and devoured them." 22:46 Let me ask you what happens when you devour something? 22:49 Is there anything left? No. 22:51 You know, I use to devour Snickers bars by the dozens 22:59 because I think they are delicious. 23:01 Now I don't because it gave me a headache. 23:04 But I tell you what, when I open the wrapper 23:07 and I took out that snickers bar 23:09 and I devour that thing 23:10 there was not a crumble that Snickers bar left. 23:14 And that's what is been said about the wicked. 23:16 The fire devoured them. 23:18 By the way if you go with me to Matthew 13:4 23:21 you will notice another text 23:22 that uses the very same word 'devour.' 23:25 Speaking about the Parable of the Sower, 23:27 it says, "And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside 23:32 and the birds came and devoured them." 23:35 Let me ask you, how many seeds are left 23:37 after the birds devour them? Absolutely none. 23:40 And so where the Bible says that 23:42 the wicked are going to be devoured 23:43 it means that nothing is going to be left. 23:47 also speaks about 23:51 what is gonna happen with the wicked. 23:53 Revelation 21:8 it says, "But the cowardly, unbelieving, 23:58 abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, 24:02 sorcerers, idolaters, 24:04 and all liars shall have their part in the lake 24:07 which burns with fire and brimstone, 24:10 which is the second death." 24:15 By the way, second death means 24:16 a death from which there will be no resurrection. 24:21 Everyone except those who will be translated 24:23 from the living will die the first death. 24:27 First death is not the problem. 24:29 You see when you die the first death 24:31 we have noticed that the result is that you asleep, 24:34 you're unconscious until the moment of the resurrection 24:37 and then you resurrect to the resurrection of life. 24:40 But the Bible says, that those who did wickedly will die 24:43 they will resurrect in the second resurrection 24:46 after the thousand years. 24:47 And then the Bible says that they will suffer second death 24:51 that is the death from which there will be no resurrection. 24:56 By the way, what I'm gonna to say now 24:57 might surprise many of you. 25:00 Do you know that the Bible teaches 25:01 that it's not the wicked 25:03 who are going to dwell in the fire forever? 25:06 The Bible teaches that it's the righteous 25:08 who are going to live in the flames forever. 25:11 You'll say, now pastor what kind of heresy is this 25:13 that you're teaching us. 25:14 Well the Bible says so, the wicked can't live 25:17 in the mist of the glory of God, 25:19 who is a consuming fire 25:21 because they're consumed they are devoured. 25:23 But the righteous, who have a fireproof character 25:27 who have given their lives to Jesus 25:29 will be able to dwell 25:30 in the presence of the glory of God 25:32 and not be consumed. Let me prove it to you. 25:34 Isaiah 33:14, 15, Isaiah 33:14, 15 it says, 25:42 "The sinners in Zion are afraid, 25:44 Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites, 25:48 'Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?'" 25:51 Notice the question, 25:52 "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? 25:56 Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" 26:00 Notice with everlasting burnings. 26:03 Notice the answer, 26:04 "He who walks righteously and speaks the truth, 26:10 he who despises the gain of oppressions, 26:13 Who gestures with his hands, refusing bribes, 26:17 Who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed, 26:20 And shuts his eyes from seeing evil." 26:24 Isn't that interesting? 26:26 Who are the ones who are going to dwell 26:29 with the devouring fire 26:31 and are going to live with the everlasting burnings? 26:35 It is not the wicked but the righteous. 26:37 The majority of the churches have it the wrong way around. 26:43 But the question still remains, 26:45 how long are the wicked going to burn? 26:49 Because the Bible does teach 26:51 that wicked will be destroyed with fire and brimstone. 26:54 But the big question is 26:55 how long are the wicked going to suffer. 27:00 The fact is folks that the Bible teaches 27:02 that there will be varying lengths of punishment 27:06 because the punishment will be 27:08 according to the deeds done in the body. 27:11 Let's read a couple of passages that speak about this. 27:14 Go with me to Luke 12:47, 48, Luke 12:47, 48 27:22 its speaking about the servant who did the master, 27:25 who did not do the master's will. 27:28 It says there, "And that servant who knew his master's will, 27:33 and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, 27:39 shall be beaten" with what? 27:41 "Many stripes, but he who did not know, 27:44 yet committed things deserving of stripes, 27:47 shall be beaten" with what? "With few. 27:50 For everyone to whom much is given, 27:52 from him much will be required 27:54 and to whom much has been committed, 27:56 of him they will ask the more." Let me ask you. 27:59 Is punishment according to your works? 28:03 It more certainly is. 28:04 Notice also Revelation 20:13, Revelation 20:13, it says here 28:12 "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, 28:15 and Death and Hades delivered up the dead 28:18 who were in them. 28:20 And they were judged, 28:22 each one according to his" What? 28:27 "According to his works." 28:30 Let me ask you would it be 28:31 just for God to punish Adolf Hitler 28:33 in the same way as a common ordinary sinner 28:37 that never hurt anyone? 28:39 Would that be justice? That would not be justice. 28:42 You see God is a God of strict justice. 28:45 And God will meet out the punishment 28:48 according to our works. 28:52 In other words, there will be varying degrees, 28:57 lengths of punishment 28:59 depending on the degree of sinfulness of the person. 29:03 Go with me to Isaiah 66:22, 23 29:07 This is a passage that Adventist love to read 29:10 but unfortunately we always stop at verse 23 29:13 and we never read verse 24. 29:15 And we're hoping that people don't see verse 24. 29:18 You gonna see why in a moment. 29:20 Isaiah 66:22 29:23 "'For as the new heavens and the new earth 29:25 which I will make shall remain before Me,' says the Lord, 29:28 'So shall your descendants and your name remain, 29:31 And it shall come to pass 29:33 That from one New Moon to another.'" 29:35 By the way that means from one month to another, 29:37 "'And from one Sabbath to another, 29:39 all flesh shall come to worship before Me,' says the Lord.'" 29:43 See an Adventist say hallelujah or Amen. 29:46 We're gonna worship before the Lord, every Sabbath 29:48 and I'll say Amen to that also. 29:51 But then we're hoping that people won't see 29:53 the very next verse, verse 24 because that's a problem verse. 29:58 Actually Jesus got it or what he said 30:01 in Mark 9:43, 48 30:05 and let's read it, 30:06 And, is this a continuation of the previous verse? And? 30:11 Yes, and they go from month to month 30:13 and from Sabbath to Sabbath, 30:15 and it says "And they shall go forth" 30:18 that was after worshipping, 30:19 it says, "they shall go forth and look upon the corpses." 30:24 The King James says carcasses 30:25 "of the men who have transgressed against Me. 30:29 For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. 30:34 They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." 30:37 You say, pastor are you saying, 30:38 that we are gonna go from month to month 30:40 and from Sabbath to Sabbath to worship before the Lord. 30:43 And then when we turn around and go forth 30:45 we're gonna see outside the city this grotesque scene 30:49 for week after week and month after month. 30:52 That is what the Bible says. 30:58 We might not like it as Adventists. 31:01 We might not like it at all even if we're not Adventists 31:05 thinking that for a while at least for a period of time 31:08 those inside the city 31:09 after they worship the Lord will go out 31:11 and they will see 31:13 this grotesque scene outside the city. 31:16 Now, in a moment I'm going to explain exactly 31:19 what the length of punishment will be 31:22 and what will determine the length of punishment. 31:24 Notice 31:27 this is our big problem verse 31:30 that we looked at, at the beginning. 31:32 "The devil, who deceived them, 31:37 was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone 31:40 where the beast and the false prophet are over cast. 31:44 And they will be tormented day and night." How? 31:49 "Forever and ever." 31:52 Let me ask you, does that sound like 31:53 a pretty long period of time 31:55 in which they are going to be tormented? 31:56 That word 'torment' by the way is the Greek word Basanizo. 32:01 And it means conscious torment, 32:05 no matter how you want to work your way around 32:07 and say well its not really torment or its this or that. 32:09 That fact is when you look up that word 32:11 in the New Testament it means torment. 32:14 And it says here forever and ever. 32:16 Now don't get nervous on me. 32:18 We're gonna study what that forever and ever means. 32:22 Now, go with me to Isaiah 34:9, 10 32:25 its speaking here about 32:26 the destruction of Edom in Old Testament. 32:29 We're gonna start catching a glimpse 32:32 of what the expression forever means. 32:36 Isaiah 34:9, 10 it says, "Its streams." 32:42 That is of Edom "shall be turned into pitch, 32:47 And its dust into brimstone, 32:51 Its land shall become burning pitch. 32:55 It shall not be quenched night or day 33:01 its smoke shall ascend forever." 33:05 And then we have an explanation of what forever means. 33:08 It means "From generation to generation 33:11 it shall lie" what "waste. 33:14 No one shall pass through it forever and ever." 33:20 Now, let's analyze that expression 33:23 forever and ever from Revelation 20:10. 33:29 I decided sometime ago 33:31 that I would go a seminary at Andrew's University 33:34 and go to the seminary library 33:36 and look at what scholars had to say about this expression 33:39 forever and ever in Revelation 20:10. 33:43 And I discovered something very interesting. 33:46 Scholars, and I'm not talking about 33:48 Seventh-day Adventists scholars, 33:49 I'm talking about scholars who are not members 33:51 of the Seventh-day Adventists church 33:53 say repeatedly that, that expression forever 33:57 does not necessary mean never ending. 34:03 It means along period of time, 34:06 whose end can not be seen from where you are at. 34:10 Allow me to read you a couple of statements 34:13 and by the way for those of you who are interested 34:15 you can get a two page document 34:16 that I wrote where we have 34:18 all of these quotations from scholars 34:19 and an explanation of Revelation 20:10. 34:23 Allan MacRae who is President 34:26 and Professor of Old Testament theology 34:28 at the Biblical School of Theology in Hatfield, 34:31 Pennsylvania states this, the Septuagint 34:35 which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament. 34:37 "The Septuagint generally translates olam" 34:40 that's eternal in the Old Testament olam 34:42 "generally translates olam by aion." 34:46 That's the word everlasting in the New Testament. 34:50 By the way we use the word 'Eon.' 34:52 Oh, that took eons, 34:54 well, that's where we get the expression from. 34:56 So it says the "Septuagint generally translates olam" 35:00 that is the Hebrew word "by aion" 35:02 which is the Greek word, 35:04 "which has essentially the same range of meaning." 35:06 In other words, they mean the same thing 35:08 in different languages. Then he says. 35:10 "That neither the Hebrew nor the Greek word itself 35:15 contains the idea of endlessness is shown both by the fact 35:21 that they sometimes refer to events or conditions 35:24 that occurred at a definite point in the past, 35:29 and also by the fact that sometimes 35:32 it is thought desirable to repeat the word, 35:34 not merely saying 'forever,' but 'forever and ever.'" 35:39 In other words he is saying that the word itself 35:42 does not necessarily contain the idea of endlessness. 35:48 In another quotation this is by Moulton and Milligan, 35:51 they wrote a very famous lexicon of the New Testament. 35:54 They say this, "In general the word aion," 35:59 the Greek word in the New Testament 36:01 that is translated forever. 36:03 "In general, the word depicts 36:05 that of which the horizon is not in view. 36:09 As you can't see the horizon, 36:12 whether the horizon be at an infinite distance 36:16 or whether it lies no farther than the span of Caesar's life." 36:21 In fact the word is used 36:23 to speak about the span of Caesar's life. 36:26 So it can mean a very long period of time, 36:30 but a period of time that is indefinite 36:33 because you can't see the end of it. 36:35 But it doesn't mean that there is not necessarily 36:37 going to be an end. 36:39 One further scholar 36:42 who is writing in the very famous 36:45 theological wordbook of the Old Testament 36:47 edited by Gerhard Kittel, 36:49 this is used by all students in the seminaries of the world. 36:55 The author says this, "In the plural aion formulae" 37:00 in other words, where the word aion appears. 37:04 "The meaning of aion merges into that of a long 37:09 but limited stretch of time." 37:11 So what does that mean? 37:12 A long but what limited stretch of time. 37:16 "In particular, aion in this sense 37:20 signifies the time or duration of the world." 37:24 So eon means the time or duration of the world. 37:27 "Time as limited by creation and conclusion." 37:33 Interesting that word forever 37:35 would be used for the period between creation and conclusion. 37:38 He continues saying, "At this point we are confronted 37:42 by the remarkable fact that in the Bible 37:45 the same word aion is used to indicate two things 37:50 which are profoundly antithetical. 37:53 Namely, the eternity of God and the duration of the world. 37:58 This twofold sense, 38:00 which aion shares with the Hebrew olam, 38:04 points back to a concept of eternity 38:07 in which eternity is identified 38:10 with the duration of the world." 38:14 And I found statement after statement 38:16 where the scholars say that the word aion, 38:18 the word olam in the Old Testament 38:20 does not necessarily mean endless 38:23 forever and ever that will never have an end. 38:26 It can refer to a long period of time 38:29 whose end cannot be seen in the distance 38:32 because it is so long. 38:34 So, you're saying Pastor Bohr, 38:35 you're saying that the devil 38:36 is going to suffer an awful longtime? 38:38 Yes, that's exactly what I am saying. 38:40 Much longer than what we have generally thought 38:44 even as Seventh-day Adventists. 38:46 By the way, even the though the devil will burn long, 38:50 he will eventually go out. 38:54 You'll say how do we know that? 38:56 Doesn't it say that he is going 38:57 to be cast in the fire and he is gonna-- 38:59 he is gonna to be tormented day and night forever and ever. 39:03 Well, but the Bible says something else 39:04 that proves that the word forever doesn't mean endless. 39:08 Go with me to Ezekiel 28:19, 20, 39:12 Ezekiel 28:19, 20 39:14 and while you are looking for that let me ask you 39:16 what do you mean when you'll say to your wife, 39:18 "I love you forever and ever." 39:20 It means that you are never going to die, right. 39:23 Of course it doesn't. 39:24 It means I'm gonna love you as long as I what? 39:27 As long as I live. 39:28 It's going to be a long time I don't know how long 39:30 but I'm gonna love you forever and ever. 39:34 Are you understanding what I am saying? 39:36 Now let's go to Ezekiel 28:18, 19 39:40 which is speaking about the destruction of the devil. 39:43 It says, "You defiled your sanctuaries 39:46 By the multitude of your iniquities, 39:48 By the iniquity of your trading, 39:50 Therefore I brought fire from your midst 39:53 It devoured you." Notice the expression. 39:55 "It devoured you, and I turned you to." What? 39:59 "To ashes upon the earth 40:01 In the sight of all who saw you." 40:04 What is the devil gonna reduce to? Ashes. 40:06 Then forever and ever it cannot mean endless 40:09 that is never going to end, 40:10 or else the Bible contradicts itself. 40:12 Are you with me? 40:13 Verse 19 "All who knew you 40:17 among the peoples are astonished at you, 40:20 You have become a horror, 40:22 And shall be no more forever." 40:27 Now, what part of shall be 40:28 no more forever don't you understand? 40:30 To be or not to be that is the question. 40:34 Is the devil going to be after his reduce to ashes? 40:38 No, the Bible says, "you will be no more." 40:43 Let's read Malachi 4:1-3 40:46 once again, Malachi 4:1-3 40:50 "For behold, the day is coming, 40:52 burning like an oven, and all the proud, 40:54 yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. 40:57 And the day which is coming shall burn them up," 41:00 Says the Lord of hosts, 41:01 "That will leave them neither root nor branch. 41:05 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness 41:09 shall arise With healing in His wings, 41:11 and you shall go out and grow fat 41:13 like stall-fed calves." 41:15 Now notice, "You shall trample the wicked, 41:18 for they shall be ashes 41:20 under the soles of your feet on the day 41:22 that I do this, Says the Lord of hosts." 41:25 Let me ask you. 41:26 Is root or branch or our root or branch 41:30 going to be left after the destruction? 41:32 No, the devil is the root 41:34 and his followers are the branches. 41:35 You remember Jesus says, 41:37 "I am the vine, you are the branches. 41:39 Well, the devil also has branches 41:41 and the Bible says "that the root 41:43 and the branches both will be." What? 41:45 "Will be destroyed and reduced to ashes." 41:49 Now, allow me to read you 41:50 a couple of very significant statements 41:53 from the pen of Ellen White 41:54 she caught this, she understood this 41:57 that some wicked people are gonna 41:58 suffer longer than the others 41:59 and the one who had suffered a longest is Satan. 42:01 And you would say. well how could God do this? 42:04 Let me ask you. What's worst? 42:05 Believing that God is going to cast sinners into hell 42:08 and they're going to burn forever 42:10 or is it much more palatable to believe 42:13 that they'll be cast into the fire 42:15 and they'll burn the amount of time 42:17 that is necessary to satisfy justice. 42:21 See people don't have any trouble saying, 42:23 Oh, I believe that the wicked 42:25 are going to burn forever and ever. 42:26 But the minute you say, 42:27 you know, that some sinners 42:29 are going to burn longer than others. 42:31 Oh, well you know that doesn't sound-- 42:33 that doesn't sound fair, that doesn't sound like 42:35 something that God would do that he would burn people 42:37 especially among Adventists. 42:39 But the fact is that God is a God of infinite justice, 42:42 and the justice of God demands 42:44 a certain length of punishment 42:46 according to the works that were done in the body. 42:49 The first statement that we find is 42:51 in Early Writings, page 290. 42:54 Ellen White says this. 42:56 "Then I saw thrones, 42:58 and Jesus and the redeemed saints sat upon them, 43:02 and the saints reigned as kings and priests unto God." 43:06 This is during the thousand years. 43:07 "Christ and unison with His people, 43:10 judged the wicked dead." 43:11 Remember that the Bible says, 43:13 that we will judge the world not only wicked dead. 43:17 She continue saying, 43:18 "comparing their acts with the statute book." 43:21 The Word of God. 43:22 "And deciding every case 43:23 according to the deeds done in the body. 43:27 Then they meted out to the wicked 43:30 the portion which they must suffer, 43:33 according to their works." 43:35 Is this Justice yes or no? Yes. 43:38 Now notice, "And it was written 43:40 against their names in the book of death. 43:43 Satan also and his angels were judged 43:45 by Jesus and the saints." Is that biblical? 43:48 1 Corinthian 6:3 43:50 "Do you not know that we shall judge." What? 43:53 "Angels" And so it says here, 43:58 "Satan also and his angels were judged 44:02 by Jesus and the saints." 44:04 And here comes the key portion 44:06 "Satan's punishment was to be far greater 44:10 than that of those whom he had deceived. 44:14 His suffering would so far exceed theirs 44:19 as to bear no comparison 44:24 after all those whom he had deceived had perished. 44:28 Satan was still to live 44:31 and suffer on much longer." 44:36 In another statement, 44:38 Early Writings, 293 and 294 she says this, 44:42 and by the way I'm gonna give you the biblical rationale 44:44 from what she says in a moment. 44:47 She says, "I saw that some were quickly destroyed." 44:50 Speaking about the wicked. "While others suffered longer. 44:55 They were punished according to the deeds done in the body." 44:58 And now notice this, 45:00 "some were many days consuming." 45:04 Some of the wicked what were many what? 45:07 "Many days consuming 45:10 and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, 45:13 all the sense of suffering remained." 45:15 Now, I've find it impossible to explain that. 45:19 "Said the angel, the worm of life shall not die, 45:24 their fire shall not be quenched," 45:25 she is quoting the angel is quoting scripture, 45:28 "as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon. 45:34 Satan and his angels suffered long." 45:38 She says, Satan bore, now why did-- 45:40 why did they suffer long. 45:42 Notice Satan "Satan bore 45:43 not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, 45:47 but also of the sins of the redeemed host 45:50 which had been placed upon him 45:53 and he must also suffer for the ruin of the souls 45:56 which he had caused." 45:59 Amazing, "Then I saw that Satan, 46:02 and all the wicked host were consumed 46:05 and the justice of God was satisfied, 46:09 and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, 46:14 with a loud voice said, Amen! 46:17 Said the angel, Satan is the root, 46:20 his children are the branches. 46:22 They are now consumed root and branch. 46:25 They have died an everlasting death. 46:28 They are never to have a resurrection 46:31 and God will have a clean universe." 46:37 Some people will say, how could God 46:39 do this to the wicked? 46:40 The fact is God isn't doing this to the wicked 46:42 the wicked did it to themselves, 46:44 by their choices, by their sins. 46:47 Now you say, where does Ellen White get this idea 46:50 that the devil is going to suffer much longer 46:53 and there is other wicked people 46:54 who are gonna suffer many days 46:55 and some that will be extinguished very quickly. 46:58 Where does she get that idea? 47:00 Well, the Bible says, 47:01 that everyone will be punished according to their works. 47:04 But with regards to the devil 47:06 the reason why the devil 47:07 is going to suffer such a long time. 47:09 A very long period 47:11 whose end cannot be seen in the distance, 47:14 that's what forever and ever means 47:17 according to the scholars a very long period of time 47:21 much longer than we have ever imagined. 47:24 Well outside of the city worm will not die, 47:26 the fire will not be quenched as we go from week to week 47:30 and month to month to worship before the Lord. 47:34 Now where does Ellen White get this from? 47:36 I'll go through it quickly. 47:39 Through out the course of the year in Israel 47:44 the people could come and sack 47:46 and place their sins upon an animal. 47:50 The animal was slain 47:51 and then the sin was introduced into the sanctuary 47:54 through the blood of the animal. 47:57 In other words, their sins 47:58 were transferred from them to the victim 48:01 and through the victim into the sanctuary. 48:04 As long as there are sins and to the sanctuary 48:06 covered by the blood they were safe. 48:09 There was nothing dangerous 48:11 or nothing risky about having their sins in the sanctuary. 48:14 It was a blessing for them to have their sins 48:16 covered by the blood in the sanctuary. 48:18 Those who needed to worry 48:19 were those that hold on to their sins 48:21 and didn't put them in the sanctuary 48:23 through the blood of the victim. 48:25 And on the Day of Atonement 48:26 the Bible tells us that two goats were chosen. 48:30 One goat was sacrificed. 48:32 It was the goat for the Lord 48:34 and that goat atoned for the sins of God's people 48:38 it cleanse the sanctuary from all of our sins 48:41 that had entered the sanctuary 48:42 through out the course of the year. 48:44 Only the sins that have been confessed 48:47 and enter the sanctuary through the blood 48:50 were taken out by that same blood. 48:52 Where taken out the sanctuary was cleansed the Bible says, 48:55 that these sins of all the righteous, 48:59 all of the sins that had been confessed were taken out 49:03 and placed upon the head 49:04 of a scapegoat called the Azazel. 49:08 By the way, do you know 49:09 that the sins of the wicked were not placed on Azazel 49:12 because in Leviticus 23:29, 30 49:16 it tells us that whoever didn't sympathize 49:19 with the work that was done on the day of atonement 49:22 they were to be cut off from among the congregation. 49:25 In other words, they were cast outside the camp of Israel. 49:29 They were no longer part of God's people. Let me ask you. 49:31 Where are the wicked after the thousand years? 49:34 Are they inside with the camp 49:35 of the saints or are they outside? 49:37 They are actually outside. 49:39 They have been exiled 49:40 because they didn't place their sins, where? 49:42 In the sanctuary. 49:43 So the only sins 49:44 that are taken out of the heavenly sanctuary 49:47 and placed on the head of scapegoat 49:49 are the sins that God's people 49:50 put into the sanctuary 49:52 through the ministration of the blood. 49:56 And all of those sins are gonna be 49:58 taken out of the sanctuary 49:59 and they're gonna be placed upon the perpetrator 50:02 and the originator of sin. 50:05 Are you understanding what I'm saying? 50:07 The Bible tells us 50:09 that this scapegoat was then sent 50:12 to the wilderness to a non-inhabited land. 50:16 Do you know where in the Bible this ceremony is fulfilled? 50:19 The Bible says in Revelation Chapter 20, 50:23 that a great angel came down from heaven 50:25 with a chain in his hand. 50:28 And he chained the devil and Satan to the earth 50:31 to the Abyss to the earth 50:34 without form and without void, and void. 50:38 And it also says there 50:40 that all of his followers are dead 50:42 because the rest of the dead did not live again, 50:44 until a thousand years were finished. 50:47 So that the devil is sent to a land 50:50 that is like a wilderness the earth 50:52 without form and void 50:53 and he is also sent to a world 50:55 where there are no inhabitants. 50:57 Because all of his followers are what? 50:59 All of his followers are dead. 51:04 Now let me ask you, let's do a little bit of math here. 51:08 If some wicked people suffer many days for their own sins, 51:16 how long do you think the devil is gonna suffer 51:19 bearing the sins of all of the righteous 51:22 through out the history of the whole world? 51:27 Just do the math. I hate to say centuries. 51:33 But you know the Spanish version 51:35 instead of saying forever and ever 51:36 it says "Por los siglos de los siglos." 51:40 For centuries and centuries of translation in English says 51:44 'unto the Ages of the Ages.' 51:48 And Ellen White says, that 51:49 while this is happening outside the city 51:51 God's people will live safely inside the city. 51:55 But now listen up, 51:57 eventually after this long 52:00 but indefinite period of time 52:02 God's justice will be satisfied 52:05 and the devil and his angels will also be reduced to ashes. 52:09 By the way, does the Bible say 52:11 that the fire falls upon the earth? 52:14 Where are the wicked 52:15 when they surround the holy city? 52:17 They are on the surface of the earth, aren't they? 52:19 And the Bible says that fire and brimstone 52:21 falls from heaven upon them. 52:23 In fact let's read that in Revelation 20:7-10 says, 52:28 "Now that the thousand years have expired, 52:29 Satan will be released from his prison 52:32 and will go out to deceive the nations 52:34 which are in the four corners of the earth, 52:36 Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, 52:39 whose number is as the sand of the sea. 52:41 They went up on the breadth of the earth." 52:43 So are they on the earth yes, or no? 52:45 Outside the city? Certainly. 52:46 It says "They went up on the breadth of the earth 52:48 and surrounded the camp of the saints 52:50 and the beloved city." 52:51 And now, notice, "And fire came down 52:54 from God out of heaven and devoured them." 52:59 So does the fire that comes from God 53:01 does it fall upon the earth? Of course. 53:04 Can that fire burn forever and ever and ever? 53:07 No. Do you know why? 53:09 Because the bible says that God is gonna make 53:10 a new heaven and a new earth. 53:13 If the wicked were outside the holy city 53:15 burning forever and ever, 53:17 how could God make a new earth? 53:20 The fact is that the Bible teaches 53:23 that they are going to burn out 53:26 and then God is going to make a new heaven and a new earth 53:30 and He will have a clean universe. 53:34 Allow me to read a passage in closing 53:38 that comes from Desire of Ages, 53:39 pages 107 and 108 and this will be a call to us. 53:44 Ellen White says, "To sin, wherever found, 53:50 our God is a consuming fire." 53:52 What is God to sin? A consuming fire. 53:56 Then she says, "In all who submit to His power 54:01 the Spirit of God will consume sin." 54:05 You submit to God the spirit of God will consume sin. 54:09 "But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. 54:16 Then the glory of God." 54:18 Notice "The glory of God 54:20 which destroys sin, must destroy them. 54:25 Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, 54:28 exclaimed, 'I have seen God face to face, 54:31 and my life is preserved.' 54:34 Jacob had been guilty of a great sin 54:38 in his conduct toward Esau, 54:40 but he had repented. 54:43 His transgression had been forgiven, 54:46 and his sin purged, 54:49 therefore he could endure 54:51 the revelation of God's presence. 54:55 But whoever, 54:56 but wherever men came before God 55:00 while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. 55:04 At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed 55:08 with the Spirit of His mouth, 55:09 and destroyed 'with the brightness of His coming.' 55:12 The light of the glory of God.'" Notice what the fire is. 55:16 "The light of the glory of God 55:18 which imparts life to the righteous, 55:21 will slay the wicked." 55:25 You know today in this world 55:26 nobody wants to talk about the justice of God. 55:30 To all the God is loving He is gonna save everyone. 55:32 You know the idea of universalism. 55:35 The fact is that God is merciful but God is a just. 55:39 And by the way His destruction of the wicked 55:41 is an act of mercy not only justice. 55:44 The Bible says that the wicked 55:45 are gonna beg God to destroy them 55:48 because they can stand the idea of living 55:50 in the presence of the holy God 55:52 whose lifestyle they cannot stand. 55:55 You see they haven't learned to live the lifestyle of heaven 55:59 and therefore in heaven there would be miserable. 56:02 And so they beg God to destroy them. 56:06 And God accedes to their wishes. 56:09 Not wanting to torture them 56:11 through out eternity living in His presence 56:14 when they don't love Him 56:16 and when they don't enjoy the lifestyle 56:20 that God has prepared for those who love Him. 56:25 So, God is not going to arbitrarily 56:27 destroy the wicked. 56:29 He is not gonna to destroy them with Joy 56:31 and with glee it is with sadness 56:34 and with sorrow that God will destroy Satan, 56:39 his angels and the wicked. 56:41 It is with tears in His eyes along with the tears 56:45 of those who were in the city. 56:47 But after the wicked are destroyed 56:50 the Bible says that God will wipe away 56:53 all tears from their eyes. 56:55 And there must be no more sorrow, 56:57 there will be no more suffering, 56:59 there will be no more crying out, 57:02 there will be no more pain, 57:04 and there will be no more death. 57:06 If the wicked still burning out side the city 57:08 death would have never come to an end 57:10 because they would continuously be dying. 57:12 But the time is coming 57:13 where there will be no more death. 57:16 May we receive Jesus as our Savior, 57:19 send our sins into the sanctuary 57:21 covered by the blood 57:22 so that we might live eternally with Jesus 57:25 in the New Jerusalem the Holy City. |
Revised 2014-12-17