Okay, so we're continuing our
study in Revelation 7 trumpets
00:00:29.16\00:00:33.53
and we have, right now, moved
from the second to the third
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and we're not quite
finished with the third...
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we spent a little bit of time
there... talking about the Lamb
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and the angel that
fell from heaven...
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the star that fell from
heaven, we identified as Lucifer
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according to Isaiah 14...
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and bringing us a
lamp... the Word of God
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so it's a
counterfeit of God's Word...
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according to Psalm 119:105
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falling upon the rivers
and fountains of waters,
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rivers, fountains of
waters representing the gospel,
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the proclamation of
truth, the righteous
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and those who are turning away
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because it's turning them
into wormwood or bitterness
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and we... that's what we got
to spend more time on, I think,
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is verse 11, and
we'll talk about that.
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So, Jason, will you
start with a word of prayer
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and we'll get right into
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and continue our
study in the third trumpet.
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Jason: All right,
"Dear Heavenly Father,
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we ask that you would please
bless us with your Holy Spirit
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to lead us into all
truth as we study your Word,
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in Jesus' name we pray, amen. "
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All: "Amen... "
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James: All right, so, Yvonne,
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can you read for us
then... let's just pick up...
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well, actually,
let's read verse 10
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just so that we get the context
so verse 10 and then verse 11.
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Yvonne: Sure, "And
the third angel sounded,
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and there fell a
great star from heaven,
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burning as it were a lamp,
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and it fell upon the
third part of the rivers,
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and upon the
fountains of waters;
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And the name of the
star is called Wormwood:
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and the third part of
the waters became wormwood;
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and many men died of the waters,
because they were made bitter. "
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James: Okay, so
this again is symbolic
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and we've got to
look up the words...
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get a Biblical
perspective on them...
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Ivor, you started us out on that
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with some
insights on wormwood...
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Ivor: Hmmm... hmmm...
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James: And the bitterness...
and I think you talked about
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in relation to
Christ being the tree
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that was put into the
waters to make them sweet
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so, "wormwood"
from that perspective
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is an absence of Christ
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and we see
Christ being taken out
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in the Dark Ages
in the compromise...
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Christ is taken out
and compromise takes place
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with the gospel...
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I wanted to share a
couple of other verses
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that would confirm
that... affirm that...
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and bring us a little bit
further into understanding that,
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the first one is
in Deuteronomy 29,
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Deuteronomy 29 and
verse 18 and this verse here
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indicates that "wormwood"
is when we turn away from God
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so it says, basically, the same
thing you were talking about
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"wormwood" is basically
when we turn away from God
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so Deuteronomy 29 verse 18...
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Jason, you want
to read that for us?
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Jason: Sure.
James: If you can find it.
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Jason: All right...
oops no... that's not it...
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hold on... Deuteronomy 29:18?
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Jason: Scrolling, scrolling,
scrolling... there we go...
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"Lest there should be among
you man, or woman, or family,
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or tribe, whose
heart turneth away this day
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from the Lord our God,
to go and serve the gods
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of these nations; lest
there should be among you
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a root that beareth
gall and wormwood... "
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James: It's interesting isn't
it the way he's talking there,
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he's saying...
to bear wormwood...
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to bear a bit of
wormwood and gall...
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is to serve other gods...
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is to turn away from
God and serve other gods.
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Ivor: Idols...
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James: Idols and its
very interesting because
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here you got this
incredible Book of Revelation
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and all it does is... it
simply borrows... borrows...
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borrows... it's already...
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God has already written
all the stuff and God said,
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"Oh, I'll put that verse...
oh, I'll put that word in there
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and they'll go
look up 'wormwood'
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and they'll remember all
the other things I told them"
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but here's the point,
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God doesn't necessarily
want us to pick and choose
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like, "Oh, there's a verse...
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oh, there's another
verse... I'll put... "
00:04:10.58\00:04:11.91
He wants us to
read the whole story.
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He wants us to get a
picture of the whole story
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what's happening in
the Old Testament...
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one of the ways
that God keeps us
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is by reminding us of
His leadings in the past.
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So we read through these stories
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and we get a picture
of it and then... poom!
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we plug in the symbol...
we plug in the meaning...
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so, that's one of them.
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Ivor: Wait, before you move
on, let's look at the context of
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Deuteronomy 29:18...
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James: That's what
we're talking about, okay.
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Ivor: Were you're going there?
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James: No, I was
going to somewhere else.
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Ivor: Before you go there...
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because, what's
really interesting is that
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back up in verse
12... it tells us here
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verse 12... "That thou shouldest
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enter into covenant
with the Lord thy God,
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and into his oath,
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which the LORD thy God
maketh with thee this day... "
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the whole
context of Deuteronomy 29
00:04:57.59\00:04:59.29
is the context of the
covenant and God says,
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"Look, I'm watching
some of your children...
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those that are
gathered with you,
00:05:04.00\00:05:05.33
those that are not here today,
00:05:05.37\00:05:06.70
remember this covenant,
remember how I led you... "
00:05:06.74\00:05:09.30
and then He goes into
verse 18 where it says,
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"Look, you've seen the
other nations and the gods
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that they took to themselves
so, remember my covenant...
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don't defy yourselves
with these other gods... "
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the reason why that is...
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that context is so
powerful to understand
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is because what's
happening in this time period,
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is that there's a forsaking
of the covenant of the Lord
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and they are in the
place of the covenant...
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taking to them other
gods which produces wormwood.
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James: Hmmm...
hmmm... Yvonne: Hmmm...
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Ivor: If you were to take...
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remember we were in the
third trumpet here, right?
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Jason: Right. Yvonne: Hmmm...
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Ivor: So, what can
we parallel this to?
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Third church...
right... and in the third church
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I believe this is
Revelation chapter 2 verse 14,
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it actually says there that..
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"I have somewhat
against thee because
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you have them there that
teach the doctrine of Balaam
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that taught the
children of Israel
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to become a stumbling
block and to worship... "
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what? "Idols... "
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Yvonne: Yes...
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Ivor: Idols... so
when you can parallel,
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right, which is what we're doing
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again, when you get to
like the 5th and 6th trumpet...
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James: The parallel...
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Ivor: this is key because even
with the 5th and 6th trumpet...
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we were just talking about this
that there's a lot of different,
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"Oh, the 5th and 6th trumpet...
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we think it's this or it's that"
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but when you have
these checks and balances
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that keep you in the
parameter of... you know...
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okay... we know
what we're looking for
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and it's no longer guess work...
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it's, "I'm stepping
back, I see the big picture...
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I'm seeing these parallel"
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and so back to "wormwood... "
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we're seeing
wormwood representing
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a denial of the covenant...
a worshipping of idols...
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and this is exactly what is
going on in this time period.
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James: Yeah, I'm just...
I'm pretty excited about this
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principle... and a
thought keeps coming to my brain
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and it's jumping way
forward in a sense...
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but I just want to throw it out
there since you brought this up
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we're going to see
an affliction take place
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in trumpets 5 and 6,
they're called "wolves"
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and they're God's
way of disciplining...
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bringing affliction
in order to bring to a...
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a call to repentance
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and in the 4th
church... the church of Thyatira
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who has the woman Jezebel,
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"I would put her
into a bed of affliction,
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I will give her space to repent,
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I'll give her time to
repent of her idol worship"
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and that parallels
the 5th and 6th because
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it says, "And they repented
not of their worship of idols"
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at the end of this...
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"they repented... she repented
not of their worship of idols
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and with their gold and
silver" and I'm thinking,
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"Whoa... " so, definitely
what Ivor's saying here is
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so powerful...
because all the way through
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we have this checks and
balances that help us to see
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if we're in the right course.
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Ivor: So we know that 5
and 6... trumpets 5 and 6 then
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just on what you just said,
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must be something in
response to this woman Jezebel
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in church 4, right,
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which says, "Hey,
she's not repenting...
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all right... we're
going to have this happen
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and let's see what happens...
let's see if they repent"
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but what does it
say? "They repented not. "
00:08:05.45\00:08:07.38
So all these
things help us to go,
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"Yeah, you know what, this
book is not thrown together...
00:08:09.48\00:08:11.75
we're not just pulling
pieces here and there...
00:08:11.79\00:08:13.89
there is
actually a divine design
00:08:13.92\00:08:17.39
in the Book of Revelation. "
00:08:17.43\00:08:19.69
Yvonne: For sure, for sure.
00:08:19.76\00:08:21.96
James: Divine
design... Ivor: Divine design...
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James: I've got to remember
that... yeah, that's a really
00:08:23.50\00:08:25.13
good phrase... okay,
here's a another verse.
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Yvonne: I have a
quick question. James: Yes.
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Yvonne: So, the
whole "Jezebel" thing...
00:08:28.14\00:08:29.84
when a woman is brought up
in Revelation, it's often...
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as relates to the
church. James: It is.
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Yvonne: Jezebel... does
she represent a wicked church?
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James: Yes.
00:08:40.55\00:08:41.88
Yvonne: Not just a
spirit of an evil woman
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but a church...
an apostate church.
00:08:44.49\00:08:46.55
James: Yes. Yvonne: Okay.
00:08:46.59\00:08:47.92
James: She
represents an apostate church,
00:08:47.96\00:08:49.29
so, here's a woman who is
symbolizing an apostate church
00:08:49.32\00:08:53.40
because when you go
back to the history,
00:08:53.43\00:08:54.80
you see that
this woman, herself,
00:08:54.83\00:08:56.53
turned away from God and
turned others away from God
00:08:56.56\00:09:00.00
and then
persecuted God's people...
00:09:00.04\00:09:02.20
specifically the prophets,
they had to hide in a cave.
00:09:02.24\00:09:05.64
Ivor: A harlot in the Bible
00:09:05.67\00:09:07.24
is one that does not
abide by wedding vows
00:09:07.28\00:09:11.88
okay, it's one that
doesn't regard wedding vows
00:09:11.91\00:09:14.75
and so you think
about Christ and His bride,
00:09:14.78\00:09:17.55
they have wedding vows,
Christ proposed to the church
00:09:17.59\00:09:21.99
at the cross,
"Will you marry me?
00:09:22.02\00:09:24.16
This is how much I love you...
this is how much I love you,
00:09:24.19\00:09:27.33
will you marry
me?" Yvonne: Yes, yes.
00:09:27.36\00:09:28.86
Right, but you're not marrying
when someone proposes to you,
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you're only married
after you exchange vows.
00:09:31.10\00:09:33.44
Yvonne: And you go
through the covenant.
00:09:33.47\00:09:35.74
Ivor: Exactly, and
the vows are the covenant,
00:09:35.77\00:09:37.84
so, Christ is like,
00:09:37.87\00:09:39.44
"Do you promise to have
no other gods before me?"
00:09:39.47\00:09:41.71
"I do... "
00:09:41.74\00:09:43.08
"Do you promise not
to take my name in vain
00:09:43.11\00:09:46.11
or worship any
graven images?" "I do. "
00:09:46.15\00:09:49.92
But the church that
says, "These vows, man,
00:09:49.95\00:09:53.66
they're
legalistic. " What? I mean...
00:09:53.69\00:09:56.83
when you're in love... the
wedding vow is never legalistic.
00:09:56.86\00:10:00.26
James: Nothing's legalistic.
00:10:00.30\00:10:01.63
Ivor: Nothing...
when you're not in love,
00:10:01.66\00:10:03.00
your wedding vows are bondage...
00:10:03.03\00:10:04.63
"What have I
gotten myself into?"
00:10:04.67\00:10:06.27
Yvonne: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:10:06.30\00:10:07.64
Ivor: So, the harlot is like...
00:10:07.67\00:10:09.00
"No, I don't want
these wedding vows,
00:10:09.04\00:10:10.51
I still want to be
called by your name...
00:10:10.57\00:10:12.17
but I'm not going
to obey the vows. "
00:10:12.21\00:10:13.54
Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:10:13.58\00:10:14.91
Ivor: So any church that is
against the commandments of God,
00:10:14.94\00:10:18.28
represents... or is symbolic
of what we're looking at here.
00:10:18.31\00:10:21.48
Yvonne: Wow!
00:10:21.52\00:10:22.88
James: And that's what
we find in this verse...
00:10:22.92\00:10:24.95
this next verse which is
in Amos chapter 5 and verse 7
00:10:24.99\00:10:28.32
it's really
interesting, it says,
00:10:28.39\00:10:31.19
"You who turn
judgment to wormwood,
00:10:31.23\00:10:34.13
and leave off
righteousness in the earth... "
00:10:34.16\00:10:37.80
so, so... wormwood here
00:10:37.83\00:10:40.84
is likened unto "leaving
righteousness off in the earth,
00:10:40.87\00:10:43.30
forsaking righteousness,
turning away from righteousness"
00:10:43.34\00:10:47.04
well, if you combine that verse
with Jeremiah 23 and verse 6,
00:10:47.08\00:10:50.75
there Jeremiah
tells us that Jesus Christ
00:10:50.78\00:10:53.92
is going to be called,
"the Lord our righteousness. "
00:10:53.95\00:10:56.48
Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:10:56.52\00:10:57.85
James: "The Lord our
righteousness," so... so...
00:10:57.89\00:10:59.25
to leave off righteousness
is to leave off the Lord...
00:10:59.29\00:11:02.06
is to have an unfaithful
relationship with the Lord,
00:11:02.12\00:11:04.83
it's to refuse that covenant
relationship with Jesus Christ.
00:11:04.86\00:11:07.46
Ivor: The water
without the tree.
00:11:07.50\00:11:08.83
James: The water
without the tree.
00:11:08.86\00:11:10.20
Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:11:10.23\00:11:11.57
James: Bitter...
bitter... I love that,
00:11:11.60\00:11:14.27
okay, so those are two
more verses that just affirm
00:11:14.30\00:11:18.11
what's taking
place here as we look at
00:11:18.14\00:11:20.68
Revelation chapter 8
and verse 10 or excuse me,
00:11:20.71\00:11:25.25
verse 11... the name of
that star is called wormwood.
00:11:25.28\00:11:27.55
So now, this is
really interesting,
00:11:27.58\00:11:29.25
the name of that star...
00:11:29.28\00:11:30.79
now the word, "name"
represents His character.
00:11:30.82\00:11:33.69
This star... this fallen angel,
00:11:33.76\00:11:36.76
this messenger
that fell from heaven,
00:11:36.83\00:11:39.23
his character is wormwood,
00:11:39.26\00:11:40.86
his character is
turning people away from Jesus,
00:11:40.90\00:11:42.56
his character is
turning people away
00:11:42.60\00:11:44.27
from a covenant
relationship with God,
00:11:44.33\00:11:45.93
his character is turning
people away from the Law of God.
00:11:45.97\00:11:47.80
That's his purpose,
that's his character...
00:11:47.84\00:11:50.91
that's what... that's the kind
of character that he's developed
00:11:50.94\00:11:53.54
and so, then you have to
ask yourself the question,
00:11:53.58\00:11:56.08
"What kind of
character are we developing
00:11:56.11\00:11:58.25
if we're doing the same things?"
00:11:58.28\00:11:59.65
We're developing the same
character as the deceiver,
00:11:59.68\00:12:02.28
as the accuser... as
the one who's fallen...
00:12:02.32\00:12:04.32
as the fallen angel and
that's what's taking place here
00:12:04.35\00:12:07.22
in the context of these
verses and we can affirm those
00:12:07.26\00:12:10.13
that in
history... so what happens?
00:12:10.16\00:12:11.93
"The third part of the waters
become bitter... wormwood:
00:12:11.96\00:12:15.46
and many men died of the waters,
00:12:15.50\00:12:17.60
because they were made bitter. "
00:12:17.63\00:12:19.70
What does that mean?
Waters represent the gospel,
00:12:19.73\00:12:23.04
they represent
life... the water of life...
00:12:23.07\00:12:24.81
I wanted to give a
couple of references on this
00:12:24.84\00:12:26.51
but if they're made bitter
then, the people are dying
00:12:26.54\00:12:31.38
because the waters
don't have the tree...
00:12:31.41\00:12:34.15
they don't have
Christ, they're bitter,
00:12:34.18\00:12:36.82
they're "Christless"
Christless doctrines...
00:12:36.89\00:12:40.22
Christless teachings,
legalism, righteousness by works
00:12:40.26\00:12:44.96
all of the
different church traditions
00:12:44.99\00:12:47.76
that you needed to follow
00:12:47.80\00:12:49.30
without Christ
in the middle of it.
00:12:49.33\00:12:51.37
Now, are we in
danger of the same thing?
00:12:51.43\00:12:53.77
I think every
Denomination is, I really do.
00:12:53.80\00:12:56.10
I think Catholicism is
something that we like to
00:12:56.14\00:12:59.57
try to put in a
little neat corner over here
00:12:59.61\00:13:01.84
and say, "Well,
we're not like them"
00:13:01.88\00:13:03.21
but I think it's really the
religion of a natural heart.
00:13:03.24\00:13:05.18
When you combine
Christianity with Paganism,
00:13:05.21\00:13:09.68
you've come to the
religion of the natural heart,
00:13:09.72\00:13:12.45
what we're
naturally inclined to do.
00:13:12.49\00:13:14.56
Adam and Eve were
naturally inclined to do that.
00:13:14.59\00:13:16.76
Remember when they
sewed fig leaves together?
00:13:16.79\00:13:18.89
They were naturally
trying to cover their nakedness
00:13:18.96\00:13:21.36
and we're still
trying to cover our nakedness
00:13:21.43\00:13:23.40
so, Cain and Abel...
00:13:23.43\00:13:24.77
Cain was bringing
the fruits of his hands,
00:13:24.80\00:13:26.90
fruits of his labors to
God and it's interesting that
00:13:26.94\00:13:31.27
that there are certain
sacrificial requirements
00:13:31.31\00:13:36.18
that involve fruit
but this one didn't...
00:13:36.21\00:13:38.31
this one involved
putting your faith
00:13:38.38\00:13:40.42
totally in the sacrifice
of the Lamb... of Jesus...
00:13:40.45\00:13:43.05
so, that's our
natural inclination,
00:13:43.08\00:13:45.39
we can't put it off over here
00:13:45.42\00:13:46.76
to another
Denomination necessarily,
00:13:46.79\00:13:48.39
we need to be aware of it
00:13:48.42\00:13:49.79
but the history is
really clear here...
00:13:49.82\00:13:51.56
the history of the development
of this power in the earth
00:13:51.59\00:13:56.33
it will cause many people to die
00:13:56.36\00:13:59.30
and be made bitter
to be without Christ...
00:13:59.33\00:14:01.24
even though they
may have had the church,
00:14:01.30\00:14:02.80
they didn't have Jesus.
00:14:02.87\00:14:04.21
James: Any other
thoughts on the third trumpet
00:14:04.24\00:14:07.48
or any other questions about it?
00:14:07.51\00:14:09.94
Ivor: Well, I would
just point out here that
00:14:09.98\00:14:12.01
we're going to...
we're going to see something
00:14:12.05\00:14:15.02
that's another important
point for us to consider
00:14:15.05\00:14:17.99
as we're looking at
these upcoming trumpets.
00:14:18.05\00:14:20.46
James: Okay. Ivor:
Is that there is no...
00:14:20.49\00:14:22.86
under the first trumpet...
it was the fall of Jerusalem,
00:14:22.89\00:14:25.76
the second
trumpet... the fall of Rome,
00:14:25.79\00:14:28.56
we don't have a "fall" here.
00:14:28.60\00:14:30.23
James: Right, in a
sense... we have a compromise.
00:14:30.27\00:14:32.57
Ivor: There's a
compromise but it's not a fall.
00:14:32.63\00:14:35.27
Ivor: What power are
we talking about here?
00:14:35.30\00:14:37.91
This is the Papal Power, right,
00:14:37.94\00:14:40.94
so we're talking about
00:14:40.98\00:14:42.31
God's true people who
were living this time...
00:14:42.34\00:14:46.55
would have been able to
look and see the effects
00:14:46.58\00:14:50.79
of this bitter water...
00:14:50.82\00:14:52.25
men don't have peace...
00:14:52.29\00:14:53.62
this gospel... something's
wrong with this gospel...
00:14:53.66\00:14:56.16
the waters are bitter,
you see what I'm saying?
00:14:56.19\00:14:58.13
But it still wasn't a fall...
00:14:58.16\00:15:00.00
remember, we're
talking about the Papacy here,
00:15:00.03\00:15:01.66
the Papacy does
not fall until 1798
00:15:01.70\00:15:06.97
so what we're going to see...
00:15:07.00\00:15:08.80
I'm kind of like giving
you a sneak preview here,
00:15:08.84\00:15:10.67
is that trumpets 3, 4, 5 and
6 will all be... will all assist
00:15:10.71\00:15:18.11
in the fall of
the Papacy by 1798.
00:15:18.15\00:15:22.98
Yvonne: Ah... they
kind of lead up to...
00:15:23.02\00:15:26.76
Ivor: Exactly, these events
so, this is a spiritual...
00:15:26.79\00:15:30.16
this trumpet is
spiritual in nature.
00:15:30.23\00:15:33.50
It's talking about
doctrines and teachings
00:15:33.56\00:15:35.90
and again I'm jumping ahead,
00:15:35.93\00:15:39.13
I don't want to
jump too far ahead but
00:15:39.17\00:15:40.67
remember that the Papacy is...
well, I'm just going to say...
00:15:40.70\00:15:44.04
you're going to have
to wait, I'm sorry...
00:15:44.07\00:15:45.57
James: Let me fill in here
and just pick up right there.
00:15:45.61\00:15:49.08
So, this is really significant
because in the 4th church,
00:15:49.11\00:15:52.58
Thyatira... Jezebel
is given time to repent
00:15:52.61\00:15:55.98
she's given time... so
Jerusalem they had their time
00:15:56.02\00:16:00.29
and so we pick it up right where
they're ready for final judgment
00:16:00.32\00:16:03.12
Pagan Rome...
they had their time
00:16:03.16\00:16:04.49
and so we pick it up when
they're ready for final judgment
00:16:04.53\00:16:06.76
but now we're picking this
up where the time is being given
00:16:06.80\00:16:09.26
that's where we are in prophecy
00:16:09.30\00:16:10.63
so the time is being
given so here's what happens,
00:16:10.67\00:16:12.33
in the 4th
trumpet, there is a...
00:16:12.37\00:16:14.57
either going to be a repentance
00:16:14.60\00:16:16.67
or there's going to be a
deepening of the apostasy,
00:16:16.71\00:16:18.81
5th trumpet... repentance
or a deepening of the apostasy,
00:16:18.84\00:16:21.64
6th trumpet... repentance
or a deepening of the apostasy,
00:16:21.68\00:16:24.01
that's what happens... it either
goes one way or the other.
00:16:24.05\00:16:26.38
We either go... we
either get worse and worse
00:16:26.41\00:16:28.65
or we pull away and
we repent of those deeds
00:16:28.68\00:16:30.89
and that's the
same way with all of us
00:16:30.92\00:16:32.49
and those are principles
that we can bring out of this.
00:16:32.55\00:16:34.56
So when we get
to the 4th trumpet,
00:16:34.62\00:16:36.93
what are we going to see?
00:16:36.96\00:16:38.33
Are we going to see repentance
or are we going to see
00:16:38.36\00:16:39.69
a deepening of the apostasy?
00:16:39.73\00:16:41.06
Ivor: Hmmm... hmmm...
00:16:41.10\00:16:42.43
James: All right, so
shall we move into the 4th...?
00:16:42.46\00:16:43.90
Yvonne: Yeah.
James: Okay, let's read...
00:16:43.97\00:16:45.40
Jason, would you
want to read for us
00:16:45.43\00:16:46.84
Revelation chapter 8 and
let's just go ahead and read
00:16:46.87\00:16:50.47
both verses, well,
let's just read verse 12
00:16:50.51\00:16:53.41
because the next one
is going to transition us
00:16:53.44\00:16:56.24
into the next three
so Revelation 8 verse 12.
00:16:56.31\00:16:58.85
Jason: Okay, "And
the fourth angel sounded,
00:16:58.88\00:17:01.22
and the third part
of the sun was smitten,
00:17:01.25\00:17:03.55
and the third part of the moon,
and the third part of the stars;
00:17:03.59\00:17:06.76
so as the third part
of them was darkened,
00:17:06.79\00:17:09.72
and the day shone not
for a third part of it,
00:17:09.76\00:17:12.66
and the night likewise. "
00:17:12.69\00:17:14.20
James: All right,
this is where we've been...
00:17:14.23\00:17:17.30
where I've been
excitedly looking to
00:17:17.37\00:17:20.57
because we've
got some symbols here
00:17:20.64\00:17:23.67
that are actually
going to be interpreted
00:17:23.71\00:17:25.97
in the Book of Revelation,
the sun, the moon and the stars,
00:17:26.01\00:17:28.38
the sun, the moon and the stars
and we've got a development here
00:17:28.44\00:17:32.31
of the Pergamos
church to the Thyatira church
00:17:32.38\00:17:35.12
and we can see the
history there of the persecution
00:17:35.15\00:17:38.42
the Dark Ages and
the persecution again
00:17:38.45\00:17:40.16
against God's people if
we think about the history,
00:17:40.19\00:17:42.86
what we're looking
here in this verse 4 is...
00:17:42.89\00:17:44.99
is an
interpretation that will tell us
00:17:45.03\00:17:47.20
that the Papal Power
began to grow... become stronger
00:17:47.26\00:17:50.77
and then it turned itself
against God's faithful people
00:17:50.80\00:17:54.30
and began to persecute
and afflict those people
00:17:54.34\00:17:56.27
and included in
that persecution was also
00:17:56.30\00:18:00.48
a push against the Bible,
against the light of truth,
00:18:00.51\00:18:04.68
against the
righteousness of Jesus Christ.
00:18:04.71\00:18:06.65
Now the reason why I
think this is interesting
00:18:06.72\00:18:09.55
is because the sun
and the moon and the stars
00:18:09.58\00:18:12.39
in Revelation 12 are the very
things that clothe the woman...
00:18:12.42\00:18:18.23
the righteous woman...
00:18:18.26\00:18:20.23
James: Let's
just read that verse,
00:18:20.26\00:18:21.76
Yvonne, do you want
to read that verse for us
00:18:21.80\00:18:23.13
it's in
Revelation 12 and verse 1.
00:18:23.16\00:18:24.77
Yvonne: "And there appeared
a great wonder in heaven;
00:18:24.80\00:18:29.47
a woman clothed with the sun,
and the moon under her feet,
00:18:29.50\00:18:32.67
and upon her head a
crown of twelve stars... "
00:18:32.71\00:18:35.28
James: Yes, now,
if we could just...
00:18:35.31\00:18:37.05
I mean... this is going to be...
00:18:37.08\00:18:38.75
we're going to be
getting into our fourth cycle
00:18:38.78\00:18:40.12
when we get to Revelation 12
00:18:40.15\00:18:41.48
and it's going to be just
amazing how we go back now
00:18:41.52\00:18:43.82
and we start the
whole cycle all over again
00:18:43.85\00:18:45.29
but right here, God is... in
a sense giving us our destiny
00:18:45.32\00:18:49.09
our destiny is to be this woman
that's clothed with the sun,
00:18:49.12\00:18:52.86
standing on the moon and
having a crown of 12 stars.
00:18:52.89\00:18:55.33
Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:18:55.36\00:18:56.70
James: so when we go
back to Revelation chapter 8
00:18:56.73\00:18:58.47
and it says that this
angel... the fourth angel sounds
00:18:58.50\00:19:02.10
and a third part of the sun
00:19:02.14\00:19:03.47
and the moon and
the stars were smitten
00:19:03.51\00:19:05.27
this is
talking... in symbolic sense
00:19:05.34\00:19:07.08
this is talking about
God's people being smitten,
00:19:07.14\00:19:09.14
God's people
are being afflicted,
00:19:09.21\00:19:10.71
God's people are being attacked,
00:19:10.75\00:19:12.08
God's people are
being persecuted,
00:19:12.11\00:19:13.45
we know that not
only from Revelation 12
00:19:13.48\00:19:16.02
but when we go
to the Old Testament
00:19:16.05\00:19:17.39
and I have the verse right here
00:19:17.42\00:19:19.39
we read about
the story of Joseph,
00:19:19.42\00:19:21.42
remember the story of Joseph?
00:19:21.46\00:19:22.86
And Joseph is a young man
00:19:22.89\00:19:26.23
whose brothers are
very jealous of him
00:19:26.29\00:19:28.36
because God has given
this coat of many colors
00:19:28.40\00:19:30.30
and he is put in
a prominent position
00:19:30.33\00:19:33.84
God is kind of choosing him and
he starts having these dreams
00:19:33.87\00:19:37.21
I'm not sure if you
remember the dreams that he has,
00:19:37.24\00:19:39.11
the first dream he has
is these stacks of barley...
00:19:39.14\00:19:44.28
of grain and they all
bow down to him... to his...
00:19:44.31\00:19:49.45
and the second dream...
00:19:49.48\00:19:50.82
do you remember what
the second dream was?
00:19:50.85\00:19:52.19
Yvonne: I just
remember the first one.
00:19:52.22\00:19:53.56
James: Okay, let
me read it for you.
00:19:53.59\00:19:54.99
Genesis chapter 37:9 and 10,
00:19:55.02\00:19:56.79
"And he dreamed
yet another dream,
00:19:56.83\00:19:58.56
and told it to his
brothers, and said,
00:19:58.59\00:20:00.26
Behold I have dreamed
a dream more and, behold,
00:20:00.30\00:20:02.36
the sun and the moon
00:20:02.40\00:20:04.53
and the eleven stars
made obeisance to me.
00:20:04.57\00:20:08.14
And he told it to his
father, and to his brethren:
00:20:08.17\00:20:10.47
and his father rebuked
him, and he said unto him,
00:20:10.51\00:20:12.54
What is this dream
about, this dream...
00:20:12.57\00:20:14.11
shall I and thy mother
and thy brethren indeed
00:20:14.14\00:20:17.35
come to bow ourselves
to thee on the earth?"
00:20:17.38\00:20:20.25
Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:20:20.28\00:20:21.62
James: So what do the sun,
moon and stars represent here?
00:20:21.65\00:20:23.35
Jacob... the people of God...
00:20:23.39\00:20:26.15
Jason: Little did they
know. Yvonne: Yeah... right...
00:20:26.19\00:20:28.59
Jason: Little did they know.
00:20:28.62\00:20:30.83
James: So here...
this is really interesting
00:20:30.86\00:20:33.63
both in the Old
and New Testament
00:20:33.70\00:20:35.83
and even in Daniel,
Daniel talks about how
00:20:35.86\00:20:38.13
the stars
represent fallen angels
00:20:38.17\00:20:42.10
but stars also represent
those who replaced him...
00:20:42.14\00:20:44.24
God's people... who shine
as stars forever and ever.
00:20:44.27\00:20:46.31
God's people, then,
00:20:46.37\00:20:48.14
are symbolized by the sun
and the moon and the stars.
00:20:48.18\00:20:50.51
That represents
God's church, His people,
00:20:50.55\00:20:53.31
in the Old
Testament, Genesis 37:9 and 10,
00:20:53.35\00:20:56.08
in the New Testament,
Revelation chapter 12 verse 1
00:20:56.12\00:20:58.95
so, in fact, Jesus
says, Matthew 5:14,
00:20:58.99\00:21:03.39
"You are the light of
the world with the light... "
00:21:03.43\00:21:06.39
and so, when it says
that the fourth angel sounds,
00:21:06.46\00:21:09.36
"the third part of the sun,
moon and stars are smitten...
00:21:09.40\00:21:12.57
so as the third part
of them was darkened... "
00:21:12.60\00:21:15.90
now here it goes on to
say, "and the day shone not
00:21:15.94\00:21:18.54
for a third part of it,
and the night likewise. "
00:21:18.57\00:21:21.11
Jason: That's a lot of "thirds"
like it's third, third, third...
00:21:21.14\00:21:23.91
they've got three
thirds... so what is that?
00:21:23.95\00:21:26.45
James: So, remember what
Ivor brought out and I loved it,
00:21:26.51\00:21:28.45
Ivor, can you share that
again where in Revelation 12...
00:21:28.48\00:21:30.42
the third represents what?
00:21:30.49\00:21:32.39
Ivor: Right...
the third represents
00:21:32.42\00:21:34.42
apostasy... it
represents rebellion...
00:21:34.46\00:21:36.16
so we're looking at,
again, this issue of rebellion
00:21:36.22\00:21:39.19
and apostasy with this power
that is connected with Lucifer,
00:21:39.23\00:21:46.00
that is connected with Satan
00:21:46.03\00:21:48.04
that is actually a reflection of
00:21:48.07\00:21:50.01
exactly what Satan did in heaven
00:21:50.07\00:21:51.94
because in
Revelation 12, it says,
00:21:51.97\00:21:53.84
"His tail cast a third of
the stars to the ground. "
00:21:53.88\00:21:57.38
James: So, Satan and
his angels, what they did...
00:21:57.41\00:22:00.25
they went
through this transition
00:22:00.28\00:22:01.62
from faithfulness and loyalty
and obedience to apostasy,
00:22:01.65\00:22:04.35
that's what's
happening right here.
00:22:04.39\00:22:05.85
Ivor: And what's interesting,
00:22:05.89\00:22:07.89
let me add a
couple of verses to this,
00:22:07.92\00:22:09.36
in Daniel
chapter 8 and verse 10,
00:22:09.39\00:22:12.36
Daniel chapter 8 verse 10,
00:22:12.39\00:22:13.93
talks about this
"little horn power"
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and I want you to notice how the
little horn power is described
00:22:15.40\00:22:18.20
in verse 10, it says,
00:22:18.23\00:22:20.07
"And it waxed great,
even to the host of heaven;
00:22:20.14\00:22:22.74
and it cast down some of
the host and of the stars
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to the ground, and
stamped upon them. "
00:22:25.41\00:22:27.18
Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:22:27.21\00:22:28.54
Ivor: Okay, this
is the persecution,
00:22:28.58\00:22:30.71
this is the little horn
which is the exact power
00:22:30.75\00:22:33.92
we're talking about
here under the 4th trumpet,
00:22:33.95\00:22:36.79
the little horn
persecuting the people of God.
00:22:36.82\00:22:39.59
But there's something
else that's really interesting
00:22:39.62\00:22:43.53
about the sun, moon and stars,
00:22:43.56\00:22:44.89
is that these are
all heavenly realities,
00:22:44.93\00:22:50.20
these are all
heavenly realities,
00:22:50.23\00:22:53.40
and this power is seeking
to obscure heavenly realities,
00:22:53.44\00:23:00.01
what do we know are
the heavenly realities
00:23:00.04\00:23:02.91
during... you know,
when Christ ascended?
00:23:02.94\00:23:05.75
He ascended into heaven,
into the heavenly sanctuary
00:23:05.78\00:23:09.38
and when the lights in
the heavens don't show,
00:23:09.42\00:23:13.56
it's... you
know... you can't see...
00:23:13.59\00:23:15.96
this is what we're
talking about here,
00:23:15.99\00:23:18.53
they are
obscuring heavenly truths
00:23:18.59\00:23:20.96
and one of the
main heavenly truths
00:23:21.00\00:23:23.30
that they began to
obscure during the Dark Ages
00:23:23.33\00:23:26.43
was the
Sanctuary of God in heaven.
00:23:26.47\00:23:29.57
"No, no, no, the
Sanctuary is down here... "
00:23:29.60\00:23:31.44
James: It was counterfeit...
00:23:31.47\00:23:34.44
Ivor: Yeah, "you
pray to God down here...
00:23:34.48\00:23:35.81
you want to go into a
00:23:35.84\00:23:37.18
two-compartment room
divided by a curtain...
00:23:37.21\00:23:38.55
Heavenly Sanctuary...
00:23:38.58\00:23:39.91
no, you come into
the Confessional Booth. "
00:23:39.95\00:23:42.65
Right, they began to
replace... in other words,
00:23:42.68\00:23:45.59
instead of the men
looking up for life,
00:23:45.62\00:23:47.52
they were directed to look down.
00:23:47.56\00:23:50.09
Jason: I was wondering, I
never... I never understood
00:23:50.13\00:23:53.70
why people would confess their
sins to a sinful human being.
00:23:53.73\00:23:58.53
There is only one way to God
and it should be through Christ.
00:23:58.57\00:24:02.30
James: Because we were taught
to and I say that with a "we"
00:24:02.34\00:24:06.04
because I was raised Catholic,
so I was... that's all I knew...
00:24:06.07\00:24:09.54
that's what religion was to
me and I can't even tell you
00:24:09.58\00:24:12.81
the experience that
I had when I realized
00:24:12.85\00:24:14.98
that I could
pray directly to God,
00:24:15.02\00:24:16.99
it was 1984... it
was the very year that
00:24:17.02\00:24:20.42
the LA Times quoted
John Paul the Second saying,
00:24:20.46\00:24:22.62
"We should not
accept the Protestant idea
00:24:22.66\00:24:24.96
that we can pray directly to
God and have our sins forgiven,
00:24:24.99\00:24:27.40
we should pray more earnestly or
more frequently to our priest,"
00:24:27.43\00:24:29.80
in that same year,
1984, when he said that,
00:24:29.83\00:24:32.70
I became a Christian and then
became a Seventh-day Adventist.
00:24:32.73\00:24:36.91
I became a Christian
before I became an Adventist,
00:24:36.94\00:24:39.54
when I say, "became a Christian"
00:24:39.57\00:24:40.91
I was raised Catholic but
when I say, "became a Christian"
00:24:40.94\00:24:43.14
I became a born-again Christian,
00:24:43.18\00:24:44.61
I knew the Lord's
Prayer and the "Hail Mary"
00:24:44.65\00:24:47.72
but I knew nothing about
Christ in my earlier years,
00:24:47.75\00:24:50.25
I knew about the Priest
and confession to the Priest
00:24:50.29\00:24:52.75
which... the verses
you brought out, Ivor,
00:24:52.79\00:24:55.22
it's all there... in Daniel 8...
00:24:55.26\00:24:57.63
let's read those verses,
00:24:57.66\00:24:58.99
Yvonne, would you
read those verses,
00:24:59.03\00:25:00.43
verses 11 and 12, in
fact, all the way to 14.
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In Daniel 8
verses 11, 12, 13 and 14
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and I think if we
read these verses,
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we're going... because
we've already explained,
00:25:11.77\00:25:13.48
we've already explained...
we just explained these verses,
00:25:13.51\00:25:15.34
now we're just
going to read them
00:25:15.38\00:25:16.71
and they're going to
confirm what we just explained
00:25:16.75\00:25:18.31
about the
Sanctuary being attacked
00:25:18.35\00:25:20.22
and brought down to the earth.
00:25:20.25\00:25:21.58
Yvonne: Daniel
8:11, right, through 13?
00:25:21.62\00:25:23.62
James: Through 14.
Yvonne: Through 14.
00:25:23.65\00:25:25.85
"Yea, he magnified himself
even to the prince of the host,
00:25:25.89\00:25:29.29
and by him the daily
sacrifice was taken away,
00:25:29.32\00:25:32.36
and the place of his
sanctuary was cast down.
00:25:32.39\00:25:35.40
And an host was given him
00:25:35.43\00:25:37.40
against the daily sacrifice
by reason of transgression,
00:25:37.43\00:25:40.47
and it cast down
the truth to the ground;
00:25:40.50\00:25:42.74
and it practiced, and prospered.
00:25:42.77\00:25:44.84
Then I heard one saint speaking,
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and another saint said unto
that certain saint which spake,
00:25:46.91\00:25:50.18
How long shall be the vision
concerning the daily sacrifice,
00:25:50.21\00:25:53.48
and the
transgression of desolation,
00:25:53.52\00:25:55.42
to give both the sanctuary
00:25:55.45\00:25:57.22
and the host to be
trodden under foot?
00:25:57.25\00:25:59.22
And he said unto me,
00:25:59.25\00:26:01.02
Unto two thousand
and three hundred days;
00:26:01.06\00:26:03.46
then shall the
sanctuary be cleaned. "
00:26:03.49\00:26:05.86
James: Wooo... Yvonne: Wow!
00:26:05.89\00:26:07.26
James: So this is
another description
00:26:07.30\00:26:10.30
of these Dark Ages
and we're right now
00:26:10.33\00:26:13.27
we're in Revelation chapter 8,
we're seeing the development...
00:26:13.30\00:26:17.04
today, we're looking
past and saying this happened
00:26:17.07\00:26:19.37
but now we're looking at
the development of these verses
00:26:19.41\00:26:22.61
that ended with the Sanctuary
being made right or justified
00:26:22.64\00:26:25.91
or cleansed in 1844... at the
end of the 2,300-day Prophecy
00:26:25.95\00:26:29.15
that's when a message went forth
that eventually even impacted me
00:26:29.18\00:26:32.29
a young,
Catholic Altar Boy in 1984
00:26:32.35\00:26:35.46
it caused me to
realize "heavenly luminaries"
00:26:35.52\00:26:38.36
the day and the night...
00:26:38.39\00:26:40.30
the shining of the
heavenly luminaries...
00:26:40.33\00:26:42.23
getting into heaven and
not being focused on this earth
00:26:42.26\00:26:45.23
and on human
beings. Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:26:45.30\00:26:46.94
Ivor: Let me add in
here... just saying is that,
00:26:47.00\00:26:48.80
it says a host was given him...
what are we talking about?
00:26:48.87\00:26:52.44
A third of the sun the moon
and the stars... the hosts...
00:26:52.47\00:26:55.84
because of his persecution...
like people are like...
00:26:55.91\00:26:59.25
"Okay, we got to
follow him because... "
00:26:59.28\00:27:00.68
you see what I'm saying?
00:27:00.72\00:27:02.08
So, I'm only talking about that
one-third representing apostasy,
00:27:02.12\00:27:05.22
representing rebellion
and this is what's going on,
00:27:05.25\00:27:07.62
the people of God
are being attacked
00:27:07.66\00:27:08.99
and because of the persecution,
many of them are like,
00:27:09.02\00:27:12.83
"Okay, we don't want
to be burnt at the stake"
00:27:12.86\00:27:14.80
you see what I'm
saying and there's this...
00:27:14.83\00:27:16.70
"the host has been given to him
against the daily sacrifice. "
00:27:16.73\00:27:21.04
James: You know
time is done already
00:27:21.10\00:27:23.51
and I love... what I
love about this program is
00:27:23.54\00:27:25.94
you don't have
to worry about that
00:27:25.97\00:27:27.34
because we don't have any...
00:27:27.38\00:27:28.71
we don't have to be
through this through that
00:27:28.74\00:27:30.08
and the other
thing in a certain time,
00:27:30.11\00:27:31.51
we just pick up where we
left off... in our next program,
00:27:31.55\00:27:33.65
but we need to let people know
how they can get ahold of us
00:27:33.68\00:27:35.72
and get information about this.
00:27:35.75\00:27:37.89
Jason: Oh absolutely, they
should send their e-mail to
00:27:37.92\00:27:39.55
sss@3abn. org
00:27:39.59\00:27:42.06
that's sss as in
Salvation in Symbols and Signs
00:27:42.12\00:27:45.19
and I love that we're
not rushing through it either
00:27:45.23\00:27:48.13
but I'm running out of clothes.
00:27:48.16\00:27:49.50
James: It's all
good... it's all good...
00:27:49.53\00:27:53.77
we can fix that down in Walmart.
00:27:53.80\00:27:56.37
All: Laughing...
00:27:56.40\00:27:59.04