Hello and welcome to a
few moments in reflection
00:00:11.08\00:00:13.89
with Brian Neumann. My name is
00:00:13.92\00:00:16.00
Greg Evans and I am
pleased to have Brian with us
00:00:16.03\00:00:18.78
today and after
taking some time out from a
00:00:18.81\00:00:21.59
very busy election
schedule here in Australia, he's
00:00:21.62\00:00:24.87
toured several of all
major cities and he is
00:00:24.90\00:00:27.75
spending a few
minutes of time today with us.
00:00:27.78\00:00:30.29
Thank you very much
Brian for taking sometime
00:00:30.52\00:00:33.04
to be with us. Welcome to
Australia and we have enjoyed
00:00:33.07\00:00:36.82
having you here. I
know, this is not your home,
00:00:36.85\00:00:39.73
you're a long way from
home, where exactly is home?
00:00:40.12\00:00:42.40
Home is in South
Africa, I live right down in
00:00:43.23\00:00:45.67
the south, near
the City of Cape Town
00:00:45.70\00:00:48.38
and do a lot of
traveling, but that's my base.
00:00:49.28\00:00:53.51
See, I've been to South Africa
00:00:53.95\00:00:55.25
a couple of times.
I find it to be a very
00:00:55.28\00:00:57.65
beautiful country, I suppose
you might be missing home
00:00:57.68\00:01:00.37
a little or missing
family, are your family
00:01:00.40\00:01:02.14
with you on this trip.
No, they are not. My wife
00:01:02.17\00:01:05.29
and my two sons are
back home in South Africa.
00:01:05.32\00:01:07.45
They're at school, so she is
there to take care of things.
00:01:07.86\00:01:10.15
And, you travel a lot
you related to in your
00:01:10.18\00:01:12.85
earlier comment. Yes,
I do, a lot of the time
00:01:12.88\00:01:17.01
out of the year, sometimes
up to six months of a year,
00:01:17.04\00:01:19.60
not all at one time, but
there is a lot of traveling
00:01:19.63\00:01:23.22
involved in the work
that I am doing, yes.
00:01:23.25\00:01:25.67
Yes, I was very interested
to read in an article about
00:01:25.70\00:01:29.73
you that you spent
about 16 years in the
00:01:29.76\00:01:32.44
Rock Music Industry.
What caused you to become
00:01:32.47\00:01:35.41
involved in the
industry? Well yeah, it's a
00:01:35.44\00:01:39.39
pretty long story. I
grew up actually as an
00:01:39.42\00:01:43.37
Adventist youth,
here's some background,
00:01:43.40\00:01:45.52
my parents were
missionaries. Yes.
00:01:45.55\00:01:47.82
In Africa. Oh! Okay.
00:01:47.85\00:01:49.90
And, then when we went out
I was in my, I was probably
00:01:49.93\00:01:55.63
about three years
old, we moved down to
00:01:55.66\00:01:58.20
South Africa from
further north in Africa.
00:01:58.23\00:02:00.30
Umm! And, I spent most of my
00:02:00.33\00:02:03.67
growing up years in
the Adventist institution,
00:02:04.34\00:02:06.48
you know, high
school, primary school and all
00:02:06.51\00:02:08.96
of that my
schooling, but at a young age
00:02:08.99\00:02:11.38
I developed a strong
interest in music and I guess
00:02:11.41\00:02:15.46
music was kind of in
me, mother and father were
00:02:15.49\00:02:17.42
musical as well and I
developed a deep interest
00:02:17.45\00:02:19.85
in music. Yes.
00:02:19.88\00:02:21.10
Somewhere along the
line, I guess like happens
00:02:21.13\00:02:23.67
to a lot of, a lot of
young people, I started
00:02:23.70\00:02:26.13
getting exposed to the
popular music that we were
00:02:26.16\00:02:28.95
listening to over the radio
and my friends were listening
00:02:28.98\00:02:31.07
to that music and my
interest started developing
00:02:31.10\00:02:33.61
in that direction as well. Umm!
00:02:33.64\00:02:35.36
And, then about the
age of eight, I started
00:02:35.39\00:02:38.35
learning to play the guitar.
And so I wanted to express
00:02:38.38\00:02:43.01
myself musically and
I guess it just kind of
00:02:43.04\00:02:44.87
happens that not
always, but so it did with me as
00:02:44.90\00:02:48.99
it does with many others
that I wanted to be express
00:02:49.02\00:02:50.94
the kind of music
which I was getting into.
00:02:50.97\00:02:52.93
Umm! Becoming used to
00:02:53.48\00:02:55.28
listening too. And, now
I guess by the time I was
00:02:55.31\00:02:57.73
in my mid-teens. I
pretty much made a choice
00:02:57.76\00:03:02.46
of decision that I
would like to get involved
00:03:02.49\00:03:04.34
in the music industry. Umm!
00:03:04.37\00:03:05.96
More specifically in
the Rock Music Industry.
00:03:06.59\00:03:09.72
Umm! And, so my life and my
00:03:09.75\00:03:12.10
interests really developed
along those, along those
00:03:12.13\00:03:15.14
lines, then slowly but
surely the things that I grew up
00:03:15.17\00:03:18.62
with learning and knowing
as an Adventist child took
00:03:18.65\00:03:22.99
a backseat in my life
and these interests and
00:03:23.02\00:03:25.31
these goals that I had
in life took predominance,
00:03:25.34\00:03:29.07
played a predominant part. Umm!
00:03:29.10\00:03:31.76
So by the time I finished
school, I pretty much left
00:03:31.85\00:03:35.39
school immediately
and moved into, into the,
00:03:35.42\00:03:38.63
into the music industry,
I mean it doesn't happen
00:03:39.81\00:03:42.00
overnight, but you know,
many bands, many interviews,
00:03:42.03\00:03:44.54
and many auditions
and groups and so on.
00:03:44.57\00:03:47.35
Umm! Until eventually I found
00:03:47.38\00:03:48.80
myself involved with a
particular band that was
00:03:48.83\00:03:51.02
doing pretty well
locally in South Africa and then
00:03:52.09\00:03:57.40
from there it was 16
years where I spend my life
00:03:58.02\00:04:00.65
working as a professional
musician in my home country
00:04:00.68\00:04:03.49
South Africa and also
in Europe, where I worked
00:04:03.52\00:04:06.19
as well in the recording
industry, got signed to a
00:04:06.22\00:04:09.23
record company
oversees and. Really?
00:04:09.26\00:04:11.51
And, got involved in the
things that's a part of that
00:04:11.91\00:04:16.77
you know, lifestyle I
mean the music industry is
00:04:16.80\00:04:18.92
not just about music. No.
00:04:18.95\00:04:20.86
Particularly when
you talk about the
00:04:20.98\00:04:22.16
Rock Music
Industry. Although, the whole
00:04:22.19\00:04:23.69
entertainment industry really
is a very different kind of
00:04:23.72\00:04:28.18
lifestyle to what
people generally are having out
00:04:28.67\00:04:32.78
there in the normal
world, one could say.
00:04:32.81\00:04:35.18
Yes. And, so, yeah all the
00:04:35.21\00:04:37.22
aspects, the philosophy,
the lifestyle, all the drugs,
00:04:37.25\00:04:39.77
whatever else, everything
became a part of my life
00:04:39.80\00:04:42.12
for those 16 years.
Yes. It sounds as though.
00:04:42.15\00:04:45.19
That kind of all
happened in a nutshell.
00:04:45.22\00:04:46.43
Yes, so you are fairly
successful by the sounds of it
00:04:46.46\00:04:49.44
on the international stage.
Yes, one could say successful
00:04:49.47\00:04:52.88
I have been, you know, the
different levels of success.
00:04:52.91\00:04:55.32
Yes, yes. In the
music industry, but
00:04:55.35\00:04:56.47
certainly there was. Yes, yes.
00:04:56.50\00:04:58.11
A measure of
success in my career.
00:04:58.14\00:04:59.75
Brian, can you identify
any element of the music or
00:05:01.15\00:05:04.53
the industry, which
caused you or attracted you to
00:05:04.56\00:05:07.83
make that choice to
go into that industry.
00:05:07.86\00:05:10.23
Yeah, well I think you
know, they were, it was not
00:05:11.27\00:05:14.47
just one particular
thing. I developed an interest
00:05:14.50\00:05:18.44
in the music first of all
that's where things began.
00:05:18.47\00:05:20.54
Yes, yes. And,
of course the music
00:05:20.57\00:05:21.54
that attracted me was
the Rock Music Industry, the
00:05:21.55\00:05:24.11
Rock Pop
Industry initially. Yeah.
00:05:24.14\00:05:25.84
Although, my interest
in the various aspects of
00:05:26.10\00:05:28.95
the music
industry, musically speaking.
00:05:28.98\00:05:30.62
Yeah. Developed over the years
00:05:30.65\00:05:32.79
and so, whether it
was anything from Jazz to
00:05:32.82\00:05:35.03
Rock to Rock and Roll
in the early years not
00:05:35.06\00:05:38.18
necessarily in the
traditional form of
00:05:38.21\00:05:39.57
Rock and Roll, but
there was various other
00:05:39.60\00:05:41.95
phases of the music that
I was listening to during
00:05:41.98\00:05:45.36
the 60s and 70s. Yeah.
00:05:45.39\00:05:47.30
It was the psychedelic,
there are people like
00:05:47.37\00:05:49.51
Jimmy Hendricks and
they appear employed and
00:05:49.54\00:05:51.34
underground and later
on developed into the,
00:05:51.37\00:05:53.25
into the Metal Era and
the funk and, so I developed
00:05:54.04\00:05:59.22
interest in all kinds
of music in the, you know,
00:05:59.25\00:06:01.54
in the music genre.
Particularly the guitar
00:06:01.57\00:06:04.29
oriented music, I
was pretty much known
00:06:04.32\00:06:06.59
for being a guitarist. Umm!
00:06:06.62\00:06:08.55
But I was a songwriter
as well, so that aspect
00:06:08.58\00:06:10.66
of the music industry
interested me, because
00:06:10.69\00:06:12.55
I enjoyed writing music as well.
00:06:12.58\00:06:14.31
Umm! Umm! And,
then of course the
00:06:14.34\00:06:15.64
lifestyle I guess that
fashion and everything else
00:06:15.67\00:06:17.88
that goes along with
it, all those things played
00:06:17.91\00:06:19.97
their part and
then the philosophy.
00:06:20.00\00:06:22.73
Unfortunately,
during my younger years,
00:06:23.12\00:06:25.77
when I grew up I
developed an interest in
00:06:25.80\00:06:27.87
metaphysical things, things
of the occult unfortunately.
00:06:27.90\00:06:31.16
And so I, my whole,
my whole way of thinking,
00:06:31.53\00:06:36.94
you know when you
consider the fact that I grow up
00:06:36.97\00:06:38.53
as an Adventist youth. Umm!
00:06:38.56\00:06:39.81
My whole way of thinking
was channeled and directed
00:06:40.00\00:06:42.45
by those aspects which
form a part of that industry.
00:06:42.48\00:06:45.43
Umm! Which then became a part of
00:06:45.46\00:06:46.79
my interest and
then eventually a part of
00:06:46.82\00:06:48.34
my lifestyle and
what I was about.
00:06:48.37\00:06:50.05
So, for those 16 years it
really showed a remarkable
00:06:50.10\00:06:53.85
change or turn around
from, how you were brought
00:06:53.88\00:06:56.58
up during your years as
an Adventist young person.
00:06:56.61\00:07:00.67
Yes, I would say
that, you know, the 16 years
00:07:00.91\00:07:05.61
was when I was working
as a professional musician.
00:07:05.64\00:07:07.73
Yes. But the development into
00:07:07.76\00:07:09.27
that phase began when I was
already a teenager at school,
00:07:09.30\00:07:12.30
you know, all these things
developed and then finally
00:07:12.33\00:07:15.70
kind of found its
full expression when I was
00:07:16.49\00:07:20.23
there in the
industry. You mentioned that the
00:07:20.26\00:07:22.98
lifestyle also
attracted you somewhat when you
00:07:23.01\00:07:26.25
had this degree of
success, so I suppose fame comes
00:07:26.28\00:07:29.95
with that and some
other things, which
00:07:29.98\00:07:32.10
perhaps a little negative,
but it's all part of the
00:07:32.13\00:07:37.29
ploy to keep you in
that industry, to attract you
00:07:37.32\00:07:40.08
and to keep you in there.
Yeah, look there is no doubt
00:07:40.11\00:07:42.97
that one of the major
causes or reasons one could say
00:07:43.00\00:07:46.85
that attract
people to this industry.
00:07:46.88\00:07:48.59
Yeah. Is the
possibility of becoming
00:07:48.62\00:07:50.73
well known, the possibility
of making money you know.
00:07:50.76\00:07:53.29
Yes. One could call it fame
00:07:53.32\00:07:54.29
and fortune, whatever
it maybe and then of course
00:07:54.30\00:07:56.78
the other intrigue
aspects, you know, with regards
00:07:58.33\00:08:00.50
to some of the philosophies
and things that go along
00:08:00.53\00:08:02.60
with it and first of all
it's just a inquisitiveness
00:08:02.63\00:08:05.70
I guess that attracts
you to those things, but
00:08:05.73\00:08:07.31
ultimately if you
allow Satan to draw you in,
00:08:07.34\00:08:10.83
eventually it becomes
a desire, making you to
00:08:10.86\00:08:14.50
want to be a part of
that and so yeah, these things
00:08:14.53\00:08:18.61
just became a part of what
pulled me into that, you know.
00:08:18.64\00:08:23.32
Yes, it's the curiosity
begin, to begin with and then
00:08:23.35\00:08:26.20
this tantalizing
attraction and then he's got
00:08:26.23\00:08:29.01
you hasn't he? As
they say curiosity
00:08:29.04\00:08:30.91
killed the cat. Yes.
00:08:30.94\00:08:32.15
And, with many people
who have been taken in
00:08:32.43\00:08:36.29
and drawn into that
industry, many people have and
00:08:36.32\00:08:38.93
still today pay
with their lives.
00:08:38.96\00:08:40.45
Yes, now I know you are
not in that same scene today.
00:08:40.48\00:08:43.51
Yeah. What
caused the turn around?
00:08:43.54\00:08:45.52
Well, that was something
that didn't happen overnight.
00:08:46.96\00:08:49.93
All these years that I
was in the industry, you know,
00:08:49.96\00:08:52.92
I didn't, one could say
forget where I had come from.
00:08:52.95\00:08:55.78
Umm! Umm! There
were times no doubt
00:08:55.81\00:08:57.41
that I can, you know,
and there were in fact
00:08:57.44\00:08:59.35
some specific times that
I could recount, where the
00:08:59.38\00:09:03.07
Holy Spirit spoke to me
in a powerful way. You know,
00:09:03.10\00:09:06.34
for me having grown up
in the background that I did
00:09:06.82\00:09:09.11
as an Adventist young
person. I, and having had the
00:09:09.14\00:09:13.95
knowledge of right
and wrong that I did have,
00:09:14.11\00:09:16.83
I have to say that
there were some choices and
00:09:19.95\00:09:21.80
decisions I made knowingly.
I knew that choices and
00:09:21.83\00:09:25.54
decisions I was making
were contrary to what I knew,
00:09:25.57\00:09:28.13
of course I convinced
myself that it, you know, while
00:09:28.16\00:09:32.00
I grew up knowing was
not necessarily right.
00:09:32.03\00:09:34.27
Umm! But deep down inside,
00:09:34.30\00:09:35.84
there were definitely
parts of me that, that
00:09:35.87\00:09:38.58
clung to those truths
which I grew up knowing as a
00:09:38.97\00:09:41.78
young child and then
finally enough one of the things
00:09:41.81\00:09:44.19
that I remained interested
in all through all those years
00:09:45.04\00:09:48.36
while I was in the industry
and was, a thing that I always
00:09:48.86\00:09:55.68
remained interesting to
me was prophecy. Umm! Umm!
00:09:56.92\00:09:59.50
Somehow I had this,
you know, at one time it
00:09:59.53\00:10:05.21
was not, it was not just a
Bible prophecy. At one time,
00:10:05.24\00:10:08.49
I was very much into the
prophecies of Nostradamus.
00:10:08.52\00:10:11.17
Oh! Okay. And,
people like Jean Dickson
00:10:11.20\00:10:13.03
and Benjamin Creme and these
new age prophets and so on.
00:10:13.67\00:10:16.46
Umm! But strangely enough I got
00:10:16.49\00:10:19.30
interested in that, I
was interested also in
00:10:19.33\00:10:21.18
Bible prophecy and so a
lot of the time I would spend
00:10:21.21\00:10:24.54
my time studying
Bible prophecy as well.
00:10:24.57\00:10:27.08
While I was reading
these other things, you know,
00:10:27.39\00:10:29.03
I was interested in
things like in time events and
00:10:29.06\00:10:32.21
some whatever climatic
events would be involved in this
00:10:32.59\00:10:35.50
world at some
point in it's history.
00:10:35.53\00:10:37.00
Umm! And, my mother remained
00:10:37.03\00:10:39.72
of course with the
church and she was the lady who
00:10:39.75\00:10:42.88
ran the Christian
bookshop, the ABC.
00:10:42.91\00:10:45.60
Yes. The Adventist bookshop
00:10:45.63\00:10:46.69
there in Cape Town in
South Africa. And, while
00:10:47.14\00:10:49.82
I was overseas, she
would often send me book she
00:10:49.85\00:10:52.44
knew my interest in
Bible prophecy. So, she would
00:10:52.47\00:10:54.35
often send me books
on Bible prophecy from an
00:10:54.38\00:10:58.33
Adventist perspective.
So, there were times many
00:10:58.36\00:11:00.73
times during the years
when I was reading these
00:11:00.76\00:11:02.94
books and where I could
certainly sense that the
00:11:02.97\00:11:06.64
spirit of the Lord
was speaking to me.
00:11:06.67\00:11:07.89
There were times when
I felt almost convicted
00:11:07.92\00:11:10.02
that I was on the
wrong track, I needed to
00:11:10.05\00:11:12.72
make a choice in my life. Umm!
00:11:12.75\00:11:14.11
But of course the attraction,
the possibilities that were
00:11:14.14\00:11:16.48
out there and what I
was doing and the successes
00:11:16.51\00:11:19.33
and everything else
that went along with it,
00:11:19.36\00:11:20.90
took preeminence and
kept me there. But then
00:11:22.65\00:11:26.97
finally over those 16 years,
through different experiences
00:11:27.00\00:11:32.36
and events that took
place, one particular event,
00:11:32.39\00:11:34.35
while I was working in Europe,
living in Germany in Hamburg
00:11:34.86\00:11:37.61
and I was signed to a
record company at that time.
00:11:37.64\00:11:39.93
I was working in a
studio there and I was involved
00:11:40.71\00:11:44.75
in drugs and so on as
well and I suffered from a
00:11:44.78\00:11:48.91
drug overdose while
doing a session musician
00:11:48.94\00:11:51.54
in the studio, doing a
session work in the studio
00:11:51.57\00:11:54.73
as a session
musician there. Umm!
00:11:54.76\00:11:56.53
And, I nearly died from
that experience and during
00:11:56.81\00:11:58.91
that experience without
getting into all the details
00:11:58.94\00:12:02.65
of what the
experience was like. During that
00:12:02.68\00:12:05.48
experience, I had a,
one could say a turn around
00:12:05.51\00:12:13.06
experience, was not the
final turn around experience,
00:12:13.09\00:12:15.82
but because I nearly
died, I during that time,
00:12:16.37\00:12:19.25
I called out to the Lord
and said Lord, please save me
00:12:19.28\00:12:21.58
from this experience. I
was practically paralyzed from
00:12:21.61\00:12:24.21
my head to my feet.
And, strangely enough
00:12:24.24\00:12:28.33
cognizance of mind to
at least know that I needed
00:12:28.50\00:12:31.08
to call out to
somebody who was gonna help me
00:12:31.11\00:12:32.76
and it certainly wasn't
gonna be the devil. Although, he
00:12:32.79\00:12:35.29
had been guiding me
in this direction that
00:12:35.32\00:12:37.21
my life had taken. Yes.
00:12:37.24\00:12:38.51
And, so I called
after the Lord and said Lord
00:12:38.54\00:12:40.12
please take me out
of this situation and,
00:12:40.15\00:12:43.14
if I come through this, I
am going to take my talents
00:12:44.28\00:12:47.80
in my life and
dedicate them to you.
00:12:47.83\00:12:49.50
Yes. Which of course
00:12:49.53\00:12:51.09
the Lord did do. Yes.
00:12:51.12\00:12:52.59
And, then I, when I
came out of that experience,
00:12:53.08\00:12:55.03
I spoke to my manager
and producer, he was one
00:12:55.06\00:12:57.74
and the same guy. Told him
that I wanted to do, go back
00:12:57.77\00:13:00.77
home to South Africa of
course he wasn't pleased
00:13:00.80\00:13:02.55
about that because we
were in the process of
00:13:02.58\00:13:04.37
working and doing deals
there in Europe at that time.
00:13:04.93\00:13:07.31
And, but nevertheless,
I managed to persuade
00:13:08.13\00:13:11.47
him that I needed
some sort of break.
00:13:11.50\00:13:13.37
Yes. And, in
the back of my mind,
00:13:13.56\00:13:15.30
I've not really have
the intention of coming
00:13:15.33\00:13:16.75
back to Europe. I went
back home to South Africa
00:13:16.78\00:13:19.71
and then I got involved
in, but today when I look back,
00:13:21.05\00:13:23.29
I call my stint
as it were with the
00:13:23.32\00:13:26.70
Contemporary Christian
Music. Okay, that's interesting.
00:13:26.73\00:13:30.65
So, I started writing
music, which was, which was
00:13:31.57\00:13:34.11
Christian in
nature, although the music
00:13:34.43\00:13:36.76
itself did not change.
I was pretty much involved
00:13:36.79\00:13:39.97
in a, you know, during
at that time in phase in
00:13:40.00\00:13:43.97
my music career,
involved in rock funk sort of
00:13:44.00\00:13:47.84
style of music. And
so I was writing this
00:13:47.87\00:13:50.46
Christian music, which had a
rock funk kind of base to it.
00:13:50.49\00:13:54.87
Yes. I felt that it was the
00:13:54.90\00:13:56.06
right thing to do and
I started performing back
00:13:56.09\00:13:58.70
home in South Africa working
with other musicians as well,
00:13:58.73\00:14:01.16
who I had broke
with before I went
00:14:01.19\00:14:02.57
oversees to Europe.
And, that for all intention
00:14:02.60\00:14:05.76
purposes it seemed
like my life was moving
00:14:05.79\00:14:07.83
in the right direction.
I had given up the drugs,
00:14:07.86\00:14:10.49
I was, you know, I started
attending church once again
00:14:10.52\00:14:14.40
very fleetingly at that time,
but nonetheless I was moving
00:14:14.43\00:14:18.04
in the right direction.
But one thing kind of led
00:14:18.07\00:14:22.04
to the other and before
I knew it I started making
00:14:22.07\00:14:27.38
some compromises. I
started making compromises
00:14:27.41\00:14:30.44
with the, not first of
all with the music actually,
00:14:30.47\00:14:33.96
the first
compromise I started making
00:14:33.99\00:14:36.07
was with drugs. Well.
00:14:36.10\00:14:38.18
And, I started experimenting
with drugs again and then
00:14:38.21\00:14:42.01
compromises with the
music went too long in following
00:14:42.92\00:14:45.88
in fact they weren't too
difficult to make because
00:14:45.91\00:14:47.98
essentially what I had
done with my music was that,
00:14:48.40\00:14:51.79
I was doing the same
kind of music essentially
00:14:52.21\00:14:54.07
I changed the words. Yes.
00:14:54.10\00:14:55.66
Essentially you know,
and all I had to do was
00:14:55.69\00:14:57.89
change the content of my
lyrics in my music and I was,
00:14:58.34\00:15:01.33
and my lifestyle which
decisions I already be making
00:15:02.05\00:15:06.02
or you know, movements
in that direction and before
00:15:06.05\00:15:09.20
I knew it, I was
practically right back
00:15:09.23\00:15:10.87
to where I was before. Okay.
00:15:10.90\00:15:12.33
So, then there were
still more to happen before
00:15:13.99\00:15:18.03
the final
turnaround, but unless you.
00:15:18.06\00:15:19.54
No, I was just going to
say I was very interested in
00:15:19.57\00:15:21.77
the point that
you made that event,
00:15:21.80\00:15:25.32
the stimulus of that
near death drug overdose.
00:15:25.35\00:15:29.38
Yeah. Caused
you to remember your
00:15:29.41\00:15:31.10
childhood, caused you
to go back to those truths,
00:15:31.13\00:15:36.03
the knowledge that you
had in the home that you
00:15:36.06\00:15:39.80
are brought up in, that
good Christian background,
00:15:39.83\00:15:42.07
that's very vital I
think a good lesson for all
00:15:42.59\00:15:45.81
parents and children
for that matter. That your
00:15:45.84\00:15:48.79
childhood, what you
were taught as a Christian
00:15:48.82\00:15:50.73
going to church had
never actually left you, it was
00:15:50.76\00:15:53.65
always there and you,
I think you intimated at
00:15:53.68\00:15:57.07
least that deep down you
probably knew that was right.
00:15:57.10\00:16:01.02
I was also very interested
to learn that you studied
00:16:01.96\00:16:07.32
prophecy not only
Biblical prophecy,
00:16:07.35\00:16:09.64
but the quatrains and other
things from Nostradamus etc.
00:16:09.67\00:16:12.63
I am interested that how
you compared the two from
00:16:13.07\00:16:16.20
what Nostradamus wrote
and what may or may not
00:16:16.23\00:16:19.60
have come true and
what prophecies in the
00:16:19.63\00:16:22.05
Bible say and how
they have come true.
00:16:22.08\00:16:24.31
Well, that's an interesting
question and just a comment
00:16:25.35\00:16:27.51
about one thing you said. Yes.
00:16:27.54\00:16:28.91
Yes, it is true that
my roots, my upbringing
00:16:28.94\00:16:33.35
in the Adventist
faith and what I was taught
00:16:33.74\00:16:36.06
didn't leave me and
that's why I realized today
00:16:36.40\00:16:40.15
that parents
sometimes get very discouraged
00:16:40.18\00:16:42.96
when they see the direction,
their lives that the youth
00:16:42.99\00:16:45.33
are taking, and they think
I left the church and things
00:16:45.36\00:16:47.46
are a mess and with me
it didn't seem very much
00:16:47.49\00:16:51.04
that way, I mean my mother
was very distressed for much.
00:16:51.07\00:16:53.57
Well, for those years
when I was involved in that.
00:16:54.41\00:16:56.60
Yes. And, indeed my, you know,
00:16:56.63\00:16:59.16
my teenage years when
she could see I was moving
00:16:59.19\00:17:01.41
off the tracks,
but that basic basis,
00:17:01.44\00:17:06.07
that
upbringing, that background,
00:17:06.10\00:17:07.74
that's stayed with me
and that played a major
00:17:08.47\00:17:11.29
role in bringing me
back again to the Lord.
00:17:11.32\00:17:14.11
As far as the prophecies
of Nostradamus and you know,
00:17:14.71\00:17:18.25
reading his quatrains,
his interpretations of
00:17:18.28\00:17:20.65
the events which were
revealed to him and so no.
00:17:20.68\00:17:23.08
Yes, it was, it was for me
at the time not too difficult
00:17:24.41\00:17:27.33
to find some sort
of similarities because
00:17:27.36\00:17:29.35
he did speak about
cataclysmic events that
00:17:29.38\00:17:31.66
would take place.
You know, it spoke about
00:17:31.69\00:17:33.23
certain people in history
that would play a particular
00:17:33.26\00:17:35.73
role in bringing about
in time events and so on
00:17:35.76\00:17:38.30
and there were
certain of his ideas, which he
00:17:39.08\00:17:42.04
got out of the
Bible as well. Yes.
00:17:42.07\00:17:44.44
It was pretty mixed up,
so I guess one could say
00:17:44.47\00:17:46.53
that what I was reading
in the Bible in Daniel and
00:17:46.56\00:17:50.08
Revelation and the studies
that I made and what I was
00:17:50.11\00:17:52.25
reading in these material,
kind of ended up causing
00:17:52.28\00:17:54.69
me to have a very, my
own kind of, one could
00:17:54.72\00:17:58.06
say personal interpretation
of in time events and
00:17:58.09\00:18:01.47
you know, and yeah and
so at the end of the day
00:18:01.50\00:18:06.10
I was neither 100%,
you know using Nostradamus
00:18:07.10\00:18:13.06
interpretation of
prophecy as my basis, or 100%
00:18:13.09\00:18:17.18
the Bible, out of
both of them I developed my
00:18:17.21\00:18:19.58
own idea of what I
felt would happen you know
00:18:19.61\00:18:22.70
at the end of time. And,
but you know, the funny thing is
00:18:22.73\00:18:27.58
that, at the end of the
day, the real solid foundation
00:18:27.61\00:18:32.23
of how Adventist interpret
Bible prophecy really won
00:18:32.26\00:18:36.57
out in the end, because
after I had comeback to the
00:18:36.60\00:18:39.37
Lord after that near
death experience much of the
00:18:39.40\00:18:42.02
interest that I had in
Nostradamus and these other
00:18:42.05\00:18:44.54
prophets kind of
faded, even when I came back
00:18:45.04\00:18:48.59
and I was writing music
Bible prophecy was the basis
00:18:48.62\00:18:51.59
of a lot of lyrics and
the stuff that I wrote.
00:18:51.62\00:18:53.32
Okay. And, so Bible prophecy
00:18:53.35\00:18:55.53
there took preeminence
and although I went back
00:18:55.56\00:18:57.33
into the music industry
and although I went off the
00:18:57.36\00:19:01.14
rails again and got
into the drugs and that my
00:19:01.17\00:19:04.40
previous should I say
fraternizing with other
00:19:05.11\00:19:10.10
prophecies like
Nostradamus and so on.
00:19:10.74\00:19:12.86
They really went out
the window and I really
00:19:12.89\00:19:15.98
did believe although I
left the tracks, I knew
00:19:16.01\00:19:18.45
that Bible prophecy
was right and I knew what
00:19:18.48\00:19:20.38
the basis of my
faith should be which was
00:19:20.41\00:19:24.90
Adventist at the base,
but the attraction of the
00:19:24.93\00:19:28.59
music and the attraction
of the industry and the world
00:19:28.62\00:19:30.95
and everything else
that I was involved in again
00:19:30.98\00:19:33.76
won out and then I found
myself right back to where
00:19:33.79\00:19:36.69
I had been before, you
know, and so there was still a
00:19:36.72\00:19:38.68
protest to go through before
the Lord finally brought me.
00:19:38.71\00:19:41.10
So, we could
certainly thank God for the
00:19:41.75\00:19:43.80
prophetic faith of our
fathers that stood you in
00:19:43.83\00:19:46.35
good stead, but also
you said as you came out of
00:19:46.38\00:19:50.90
the pop music
industry, coming back to church,
00:19:50.93\00:19:53.88
you basically just
changed the lyrics not so
00:19:53.91\00:19:57.42
much the music
itself. So that would bag the
00:19:57.45\00:20:00.45
question, does it really
matter what type of music
00:20:00.48\00:20:04.34
we listen to in
worship of our Lord?
00:20:04.37\00:20:07.57
Yes, well there would
be some people who would
00:20:09.41\00:20:10.60
debate or make a distinction
between what you are listen
00:20:10.63\00:20:12.92
to in music or use in music
to worship God and what you
00:20:12.95\00:20:16.08
would use in your
own private listening.
00:20:16.11\00:20:18.29
And although the, you
know, spiritually speaking
00:20:18.87\00:20:21.28
with spiritual music
and although I might say,
00:20:21.31\00:20:23.12
that there might be
some what of a difference,
00:20:24.17\00:20:26.45
you know, circumstances
sometimes dictate to a degree
00:20:26.48\00:20:28.88
what kind of music you are
gonna listen to. Ultimately,
00:20:28.91\00:20:31.57
we are told in the word of
God to do what we do to the
00:20:31.60\00:20:33.63
glory of God. And there
are most certainly types of
00:20:33.66\00:20:36.99
music both in the
lyrical content and particularly
00:20:37.02\00:20:41.27
in the atmosphere of the
music itself that communicate
00:20:41.30\00:20:45.06
negative messages and we
don't want to and this is
00:20:45.50\00:20:50.45
how I have come to understand
this through my study into
00:20:50.48\00:20:53.11
this topic that how you
present your music to God
00:20:53.14\00:20:56.55
in the context of worship
matters because sometimes
00:20:56.58\00:21:00.85
we may be using an
atmosphere of sound,
00:21:01.33\00:21:03.97
musically speaking,
that might be communicating
00:21:04.00\00:21:06.70
sensuality, you know,
in the very atmosphere
00:21:06.73\00:21:09.28
of the music it might
be communicating aggression
00:21:09.31\00:21:11.50
in the atmosphere of
music. And, you don't want to
00:21:12.15\00:21:15.61
communicate that type
of expression when you
00:21:15.64\00:21:18.34
come to worship God.
So, one has to choose a form
00:21:18.37\00:21:21.48
of music that communicates
reverence and respect,
00:21:21.51\00:21:24.26
that shows that you realize
that you understand whose
00:21:24.65\00:21:28.27
presence you are in,
when you have come to
00:21:28.30\00:21:30.39
worship God. Now, it's
debatable of course amongst
00:21:30.42\00:21:33.40
in some circles
because some folks say
00:21:33.43\00:21:35.21
that music is
neutral. Yeah, even I said.
00:21:35.24\00:21:37.09
But, I do not
believe that music is neutral
00:21:37.12\00:21:40.34
and there are number
of good reasons for it and
00:21:40.88\00:21:45.18
I don't know if we have
the time to get into it,
00:21:45.21\00:21:46.53
I might be able to touch
on a few of those things.
00:21:46.56\00:21:49.07
Yeah, sure. First
of all, I think it's
00:21:49.10\00:21:52.65
rather naive to say that
music is neutral and to use
00:21:52.68\00:21:56.09
an illustration, if I
wanted to create an atmosphere
00:21:56.12\00:21:59.78
of romance, not worship
necessarily in this case
00:21:59.81\00:22:02.40
perhaps romance. It
would matter to the person who
00:22:02.43\00:22:05.59
is using music for
that kind of situation,
00:22:05.62\00:22:07.68
what kind of atmosphere of
music they are going to use.
00:22:07.71\00:22:10.48
For example, would I use
military march band music
00:22:11.05\00:22:14.87
in order to create an
atmosphere of romance.
00:22:14.90\00:22:16.96
Oh! I think so.
Most normal thinking
00:22:16.99\00:22:18.88
people would say,
no, that'd be ridiculous,
00:22:18.91\00:22:20.60
I mean, what do
you mean military march
00:22:20.63\00:22:22.63
band music? So I normally
ask the question, if I am
00:22:22.66\00:22:25.86
doing seminars on
this, I say well okay, what
00:22:25.89\00:22:28.01
kind of music would you
use? Now, somebody who would be
00:22:28.04\00:22:30.19
into, lets say the classical
John Robb music might say,
00:22:30.22\00:22:33.65
I might use, I might use
Mozart's Clarinet music or
00:22:33.68\00:22:38.87
I might use Beethoven's
Moonlight Sonata, by the
00:22:38.90\00:22:42.00
way example, as a piece
of music which I would use.
00:22:42.03\00:22:44.79
If somebody was into say
something more contemporary,
00:22:44.82\00:22:47.34
where somebody who might
be into the more contemporary
00:22:47.75\00:22:49.73
popular forms of music
might say that are into the
00:22:49.76\00:22:52.56
blues oriented form of
music. Might say, well I do
00:22:52.59\00:22:55.40
something like soul,
where somebody who might be into
00:22:55.43\00:22:58.55
contemporary pop rock
music, might say I would use
00:22:58.94\00:23:02.55
soft rock, the
Germans call it Crystal rock,
00:23:02.73\00:23:05.24
we call it rock ballads. Okay.
00:23:05.27\00:23:07.04
Which is generally in
all these forms of music,
00:23:07.07\00:23:09.42
whether it classics
or whether its popular
00:23:09.45\00:23:11.38
forms of music, so
whatever it maybe, you find that
00:23:11.41\00:23:13.73
people generally tend
to use the softer, more,
00:23:13.76\00:23:17.83
for want of a better
term laid back form of music
00:23:19.02\00:23:21.40
for a romantic type of
atmosphere. So, whatever
00:23:21.43\00:23:24.56
genre people are
listening to, it is clear
00:23:24.59\00:23:26.97
that they would use a
kind of music that seems to
00:23:27.00\00:23:29.38
reflect this
almost intangible quality,
00:23:29.41\00:23:32.27
one might call it of
romance in the music. And, it
00:23:32.30\00:23:36.06
wouldn't make any difference,
now I am not justifying
00:23:36.09\00:23:39.29
by the way, I am not
justifying saying that
00:23:39.32\00:23:41.23
I could use rock or soul
or whatever for that, but the
00:23:41.26\00:23:45.63
point is made at least
that we generally have a type of
00:23:45.66\00:23:48.62
music which is of the
soft in nature of the genre
00:23:48.65\00:23:50.79
for a romantic atmosphere.
There are exceptions to
00:23:50.82\00:23:53.36
every rule of course and
there are some people that
00:23:53.39\00:23:55.91
may have been desensitized
to the point where they
00:23:55.94\00:23:58.22
cannot even really analyze
what would be appropriate
00:23:58.25\00:24:01.75
for romance. We have to
accept that because we're
00:24:01.78\00:24:04.16
living in a day and
age, and it's born out by the
00:24:04.19\00:24:06.47
prophecies that Paul
made for example in Second
00:24:06.50\00:24:09.20
Timothy chapter 3
verses 1 to 5, where he
00:24:09.23\00:24:12.27
tells us about the end
of time how the character of
00:24:12.30\00:24:15.32
people would be so
changed and there clearly is
00:24:15.35\00:24:17.28
demonstrated a desensitized
state of existence in
00:24:17.31\00:24:22.52
humanity at the end of
time. Where they even in the
00:24:22.55\00:24:25.72
context of Christianity,
where they a have of form of
00:24:25.75\00:24:28.08
Godliness, but they
deny the power there of.
00:24:28.11\00:24:30.36
And, so I think the
senses of the rational beings
00:24:31.39\00:24:34.85
eventually become so confused
that they don't know the
00:24:34.88\00:24:37.22
distinction anymore
between right and wrong and
00:24:37.25\00:24:39.03
of course that
concept is poured out in the
00:24:39.06\00:24:40.55
word of God as well.
But on the whole a normal
00:24:40.58\00:24:43.21
thinking human being
recognizes for example that
00:24:43.24\00:24:46.29
if I am having a
romantic evening,
00:24:46.32\00:24:47.88
regardless of the
lyrics, you know, you could have
00:24:49.02\00:24:50.69
military march band
music, even if you put romantic
00:24:50.72\00:24:53.41
lyrics to that, it still
is not gonna be the right
00:24:53.44\00:24:55.93
atmosphere or the
right feeling because
00:24:55.96\00:24:57.46
it's that
military march band feel.
00:24:57.49\00:24:59.21
So, I would pose another
question, I would say then,
00:24:59.60\00:25:02.73
if I wanted to create an
atmosphere of anarchy and
00:25:03.74\00:25:06.92
rebellion, what music
would I use. Would I use
00:25:06.95\00:25:10.08
a Beethoven's
Moonlight Sonata to create that
00:25:10.11\00:25:12.66
atmosphere and again the
response would be, that'd
00:25:12.69\00:25:15.46
be ridiculous, it
doesn't, but why not? Because
00:25:15.49\00:25:18.11
it's not the right
atmosphere, it's not the
00:25:18.14\00:25:19.85
words that are the issue here.
The issue is the atmosphere
00:25:19.88\00:25:22.90
and most musicians
like Paul McCartney says,
00:25:22.93\00:25:25.07
it is not the lyrics of
a song that actually speak
00:25:25.10\00:25:29.26
to you the loudest, it is
the atmosphere of the music
00:25:29.29\00:25:31.88
itself that speaks to
you the loudest and you could
00:25:31.91\00:25:34.28
go through so
many. I saw an interview
00:25:34.31\00:25:36.36
a number of years ago
with the band Metallica
00:25:36.39\00:25:39.73
and Kirk Hammett one of
the musicians in the band
00:25:39.76\00:25:42.69
Metallica for those
who don't know, Metallica
00:25:42.72\00:25:44.36
is heavy metal music.
He was asked the question
00:25:44.39\00:25:47.82
about what kind of atmosphere
was being communicated
00:25:47.85\00:25:50.58
through their music
and he said, well our
00:25:50.61\00:25:52.31
music is
aggressive. He said it actually
00:25:52.34\00:25:54.67
communicates
rebellion and when those people
00:25:54.70\00:25:57.52
listen to our music
that atmosphere that is
00:25:57.55\00:26:01.23
communicated to the
music, if there are feeling
00:26:01.26\00:26:03.13
rebellion or
aggression within the message,
00:26:03.16\00:26:04.83
our music actually
takes that atmosphere or that
00:26:04.86\00:26:08.30
what they were feeling
and it pushes it even further,
00:26:08.33\00:26:11.01
which means it
promotes that kind of feeling
00:26:11.52\00:26:14.49
within the person.
And, then he said something
00:26:14.52\00:26:16.28
interesting, he said that
it's very difficult to sing
00:26:16.31\00:26:19.23
about flowers and love,
you know, those subtle things
00:26:19.57\00:26:23.37
in life, when the music,
when the drums and the base
00:26:23.40\00:26:25.76
are going boom, boom, boom and
00:26:25.79\00:26:27.70
he communicated a
truism. For those who are
00:26:27.73\00:26:30.09
really honest about
what music is about and that
00:26:30.12\00:26:33.29
truism is that, it is not
he words that are speaking.
00:26:33.32\00:26:36.21
I am using lyrics in
my music he is saying that
00:26:37.04\00:26:39.72
communicate aggression. Yes.
00:26:39.75\00:26:41.29
So, flowers and love,
well if you are gonna sing
00:26:41.61\00:26:43.55
about that, you
need a kind of music that
00:26:43.58\00:26:45.57
communicates
that kind of message.
00:26:45.60\00:26:47.40
You would be getting
a conflict wouldn't you
00:26:47.71\00:26:48.95
between, between
what the words are telling
00:26:48.98\00:26:51.26
you consciously. Exactly.
00:26:51.29\00:26:52.98
But the physiological
effects of the music itself,
00:26:53.02\00:26:56.10
that there would be conflicting.
00:26:56.13\00:26:57.92
Conflicting with
one another. Yeah.
00:26:58.02\00:26:59.79
And, so I use very
often the illustration, to
00:26:59.97\00:27:03.12
illustrate this I
use the spoken language
00:27:03.15\00:27:06.04
as an example, because
neurologists tell us that
00:27:06.07\00:27:08.37
the same brain centers
which are used for processing
00:27:08.40\00:27:11.04
music are the very same
brain centers that are used
00:27:11.07\00:27:13.57
for processing
language and the communicating
00:27:13.60\00:27:16.00
like you or I communicate. Yes.
00:27:16.03\00:27:17.45
Because when we
communicate, when we
00:27:17.48\00:27:19.24
speak we use expression
and that is really essential
00:27:19.27\00:27:22.10
what music is about.
Music is about expression.
00:27:22.13\00:27:24.82
Music colleges will
tell you it's the most
00:27:25.71\00:27:27.25
sophisticated means
of expressing our human
00:27:27.28\00:27:29.94
emotions and it is
true. It is sophisticated more
00:27:29.97\00:27:33.02
than our spoken
words, because you are using
00:27:33.05\00:27:35.28
melody and harmony
and you are putting them
00:27:35.31\00:27:37.56
together and you are
making this beautiful, if it is
00:27:37.59\00:27:41.08
of course positive.
Beautiful form of expression,
00:27:41.11\00:27:43.51
and so when we speak to
one another using that by
00:27:44.11\00:27:47.04
the way of example, if I
say to my wife I love her,
00:27:47.07\00:27:50.18
I use a certain tone
of voice, I don't shout at
00:27:51.31\00:27:53.40
my wife and say I love
you, you know, in that kind
00:27:53.43\00:27:55.41
of tone of voice. Now, the
words are absolutely right,
00:27:55.44\00:27:57.75
yes and I am, you know,
I might shout at my wife
00:27:58.57\00:28:01.56
and say that and she
might say what on earth
00:28:01.59\00:28:03.31
are you doing? Why you
are shouting at me? Don't you
00:28:03.34\00:28:05.35
realize, it's not how I
say I love you that's important
00:28:05.38\00:28:08.11
you know, it doesn't matter
the tone of voice that I use,
00:28:08.14\00:28:10.50
it's just the fact that
I am saying, I love you.
00:28:10.53\00:28:13.12
And, she'd look at me
and say don't be ridiculous,
00:28:13.81\00:28:15.58
your tone of voice is
about 99% telling me whether
00:28:16.19\00:28:20.07
what you are saying is
really fitting or how you're
00:28:20.10\00:28:24.74
expressing yourself
is really fitting with
00:28:24.77\00:28:26.31
what you are saying. Yes.
00:28:26.34\00:28:27.60
So, you know, 99 or
whatever percent each of these,
00:28:27.63\00:28:30.44
a large percent is of
communication is tone,
00:28:30.47\00:28:32.70
is atmosphere. Yes, yes.
00:28:32.73\00:28:33.95
And, that principle
has to be applied to music
00:28:33.98\00:28:35.89
because music is not just
about words. So, a Christian
00:28:35.92\00:28:39.10
who says to me that
only the words are important
00:28:39.13\00:28:42.55
when we are making
music to God and that really
00:28:42.58\00:28:44.64
determines whether it's
acceptable or not, really
00:28:44.67\00:28:47.11
doesn't understand
the language of music.
00:28:47.14\00:28:48.85
Yes. And, it is only a strange,
00:28:48.88\00:28:51.23
you know, when I
consider my experience in the
00:28:51.26\00:28:53.87
music industry. For
all those years I was a
00:28:53.90\00:28:56.13
professional musician,
never once that anybody
00:28:56.16\00:28:59.39
and all the professional
musicians who I have read
00:28:59.42\00:29:01.86
and studied during the
course of the years now since
00:29:01.89\00:29:04.30
I have been back
doing my ministry on worship
00:29:04.33\00:29:06.77
and music, never once
does the world say music is
00:29:06.80\00:29:11.54
neutral and only
the words are important.
00:29:11.57\00:29:13.64
The point of view of the
professional music industry,
00:29:13.84\00:29:15.82
the world music industry
is exactly the opposite,
00:29:15.85\00:29:17.74
it is strange that
it is only the Christian
00:29:17.77\00:29:20.69
contemporary music,
contemporary Christian
00:29:20.72\00:29:23.07
music industry, but they're
rock music and everything
00:29:23.10\00:29:25.01
else they are trying to
use for God to try and use
00:29:25.04\00:29:28.66
that argument to justify
what they are doing. So, it's
00:29:28.69\00:29:34.43
an absolute fallacy. Yeah.
00:29:34.46\00:29:35.63
It shows a lack of
understanding and, in my
00:29:35.66\00:29:38.85
opinion when I have
read the material and studied
00:29:38.88\00:29:41.06
the logic behind it, I
think it is a strong man that
00:29:41.09\00:29:44.41
has been brought to
try and protect and justify
00:29:44.44\00:29:47.41
the use of music,
which really essentially does
00:29:47.44\00:29:49.65
not bring honor
and glory to God.
00:29:49.68\00:29:51.68
Yeah, a good example
of what you just said,
00:29:51.71\00:29:54.16
I think is when
Hollywood makes a movie and they
00:29:54.19\00:29:56.99
distribute that movie worldwide.
00:29:57.02\00:29:59.42
Right. They obviously change the
00:29:59.45\00:30:01.11
language when it
goes into Germany or China
00:30:01.14\00:30:03.56
or whatever else, but
they don't change the music.
00:30:03.59\00:30:06.26
The music stays the same.
So, the music speaks to us,
00:30:06.70\00:30:10.41
it creates an atmosphere,
it creates an emotion of
00:30:10.44\00:30:13.59
feeling within ourselves.
Well, I use that exact
00:30:13.62\00:30:18.00
illustration when I do
presentations about Hollywood.
00:30:18.03\00:30:20.39
When the
Hollywood producer releases,
00:30:20.42\00:30:22.33
he is going to do a movie
and he gets the, the musician
00:30:22.76\00:30:25.90
is going to do the soundtrack
for the movie. He doesn't
00:30:25.93\00:30:27.97
call him and say look, we
are releasing this movie in
00:30:28.00\00:30:30.49
Africa and China and
India, and South America,
00:30:30.52\00:30:33.08
and Australia and
its different cultures,
00:30:33.11\00:30:35.37
different people and I
want you to make a soundtrack
00:30:35.40\00:30:37.47
different for every single
culture because if we release
00:30:37.50\00:30:40.27
this music of this
movie in India, they are not
00:30:40.30\00:30:42.78
gonna relate to the
music, the westernized music
00:30:42.81\00:30:45.71
that we might
use for an audience
00:30:45.74\00:30:47.28
in New York or in Europe.
00:30:47.31\00:30:48.58
Yes. I mean if the producer
00:30:48.61\00:30:50.71
said that to the musician,
who is gonna make the music,
00:30:50.74\00:30:52.47
the musician would say
don't be ridiculous, you know,
00:30:52.50\00:30:54.89
that people release
movies around the world and
00:30:54.92\00:30:57.46
the soundtrack
remains the same for every
00:30:57.49\00:30:59.29
single one of
those cultures. Yes.
00:30:59.32\00:31:00.68
And, that guy in
India, who maybe even during
00:31:00.71\00:31:03.27
the week listens to his
traditional Indian music
00:31:03.30\00:31:05.75
that might be his habit. Yes.
00:31:05.78\00:31:07.92
But when he goes that
Saturday night, whenever he
00:31:07.95\00:31:10.04
goes to that movie house
and he sits down and watches
00:31:10.07\00:31:12.87
that movie and that
music and everybody know that
00:31:12.90\00:31:15.11
music is one of the primary
factors that make a movie,
00:31:15.14\00:31:18.39
that speak to the audience,
its one of the, it's the
00:31:18.42\00:31:21.46
foundation of one of
the major foundations of
00:31:21.49\00:31:24.08
communicating the
whole message of the movie.
00:31:24.11\00:31:26.89
So, when he sits
down in that movie house,
00:31:27.33\00:31:29.62
his reaction regardless
of the music, regardless
00:31:29.65\00:31:31.82
of the fact that he even
traditionally he may listen
00:31:31.85\00:31:34.33
to his normal Indian music
during the week. When he sits
00:31:34.36\00:31:36.87
down in that movie house,
his reaction to that movie
00:31:36.90\00:31:39.61
is exactly and the music
is exactly the same to an
00:31:39.64\00:31:42.09
audience that may be
in New York or any other
00:31:42.12\00:31:44.64
part or any other
culture of the world.
00:31:44.67\00:31:46.23
So, how we listen
to music is not predom?
00:31:46.72\00:31:49.27
how we respond to
music, it's not predominately
00:31:49.30\00:31:51.79
determined by our
culture. Our personal choice in
00:31:52.27\00:31:55.88
music maybe determined
by our culture and our
00:31:55.91\00:31:58.90
background, but the basic
response you have in music
00:31:58.93\00:32:01.69
particularly when you
willingly put yourself in a
00:32:01.72\00:32:03.83
situation where you are
going to now, like a movie
00:32:03.86\00:32:07.01
for example are going to
want to experiment something.
00:32:07.04\00:32:10.64
You don't think to
yourself hey that's not my
00:32:10.67\00:32:12.52
kind of music. You
automatically respond.
00:32:12.55\00:32:15.23
Those automatic mechanisms,
which are there in your brain
00:32:15.62\00:32:18.14
that calls you to
respond to atmospheres of sound,
00:32:18.17\00:32:21.03
feeling and emotion whatever
it may be, they trigger in
00:32:21.06\00:32:24.19
and you respond the way
that anybody else would,
00:32:24.22\00:32:27.09
just one example, sorry but
I'd like to give about this.
00:32:27.80\00:32:30.38
I often hear the logic
and reasoning from people in
00:32:31.23\00:32:34.09
different parts of the
world particularly in the West,
00:32:34.12\00:32:37.48
they said to me well
you can't expect a person in
00:32:38.23\00:32:40.50
Africa to worship God
in the same way that we do
00:32:40.53\00:32:45.83
with music and
atmospheres of sound or whatever
00:32:46.17\00:32:48.40
they maybe using. I
mean Africa largely they are,
00:32:48.43\00:32:51.36
their lives and experience
in music is both on rhythm
00:32:52.32\00:32:54.41
and beat and that's what
the so you got to have the
00:32:54.44\00:32:56.78
worship in that
kind of atmosphere.
00:32:56.81\00:32:58.58
And, people use that same
kind of logic when it comes
00:32:58.95\00:33:01.48
to our young people
today, they say a young people
00:33:01.51\00:33:03.77
come from the or
other people that you bring
00:33:03.80\00:33:05.38
into the church may
come from the rap culture or
00:33:07.23\00:33:08.20
the rave culture or
the nightclub culture,
00:33:08.21\00:33:09.55
whatever it maybe, you
can't expect them to worship
00:33:09.58\00:33:12.12
God with the kind of
music that we traditionally
00:33:12.15\00:33:14.10
think of, you know,
hymns and whatever else that
00:33:14.13\00:33:16.47
come from the 16th
century and so on, not that
00:33:16.50\00:33:18.64
all hymns do.
And, so they say we got
00:33:18.67\00:33:21.39
to give them the kind of
music that they are into,
00:33:21.42\00:33:23.40
we got to be user friendly
and appeal to their culture,
00:33:23.43\00:33:27.29
that's what they're used to.
And, so people who use Africa
00:33:27.32\00:33:30.94
and these cultures as
an argument and often,
00:33:30.97\00:33:33.33
often think to myself people
will use Africa as an example
00:33:33.36\00:33:36.67
I have no idea about
African music because in the
00:33:36.70\00:33:39.00
western mind, when they
think of Africa they think
00:33:39.03\00:33:40.97
of a dark night over the
full moon and a big bonfire
00:33:41.00\00:33:44.78
and people banging on big
drums while they're dancing
00:33:44.81\00:33:46.87
around a big fire and
that's Africa for them.
00:33:46.90\00:33:49.24
Yes. But they don't realize that
00:33:49.27\00:33:50.52
is not the only expression
of music to be found in Africa.
00:33:50.55\00:33:54.18
If you go to Africa,
and I come from Africa, so
00:33:54.87\00:33:57.24
I know in my experience
is personal. In Africa there
00:33:57.27\00:34:00.92
are various forms of
musical expression even though
00:34:00.95\00:34:03.15
in that culture, it
may be predominantly maybe
00:34:03.18\00:34:06.09
rhythmical music particularly
when we you're connected
00:34:06.12\00:34:08.52
with their religious culture,
in fact when people picture
00:34:08.55\00:34:11.82
that kind of music in Africa
with the fire and drums and
00:34:11.85\00:34:14.12
the dancing its normally
in their religious, one could
00:34:14.15\00:34:16.57
say voodoo culture,
where that is the kind of music
00:34:16.60\00:34:19.12
which they are
using. But they have many
00:34:19.15\00:34:21.45
other forms of music.
A guy out there looking
00:34:21.48\00:34:23.34
after his animal, his
sheep, whatever out there
00:34:23.37\00:34:26.32
in the bush. He might be
sitting there writing a song,
00:34:26.35\00:34:29.92
composing a song
about his woman back home.
00:34:29.95\00:34:32.81
A different atmosphere
of music to what you may
00:34:32.84\00:34:35.15
associate with this
worship culture that they have
00:34:35.18\00:34:38.30
in the pagan culture,
aspect of the pagan culture
00:34:38.62\00:34:41.37
and so they have
different kinds of music and
00:34:41.76\00:34:43.47
a perfect illustration.
A mother in Africa,
00:34:43.88\00:34:46.57
when she is putting her
child to sleep with music.
00:34:47.67\00:34:49.73
How would she use
the music to put the
00:34:50.43\00:34:52.97
child to sleep, would you
bring up big drums and start
00:34:53.00\00:34:54.96
banging on them, so the
child would go to sleep,
00:34:54.99\00:34:56.60
because after all in
Africa they respond to music
00:34:56.63\00:34:59.07
completely differently
to what we do in the west.
00:34:59.10\00:35:01.01
No, in fact, when I do
these presentations in Africa
00:35:01.17\00:35:03.68
I use these
illustrations for them
00:35:03.71\00:35:05.32
there and they laugh.
They think it's ridiculous,
00:35:05.35\00:35:07.14
because in Africa when the
mother puts the child to sleep
00:35:07.46\00:35:09.85
she will sing a
beautiful soft African lullaby.
00:35:09.88\00:35:12.90
The simple basic
understanding of music
00:35:13.71\00:35:17.91
with the African
mother there in Africa,
00:35:18.53\00:35:20.37
not what all the extended
00:35:20.40\00:35:22.10
complicated knowledge
of what music is about.
00:35:22.49\00:35:24.44
Just the instinctive
knowledge she has about music.
00:35:24.47\00:35:26.53
She knows that the difference
00:35:26.56\00:35:29.54
between those elements of music,
00:35:29.57\00:35:31.42
loud and soft and
how somebody will respond
00:35:31.45\00:35:34.90
when they are
exposed to those atmospheres.
00:35:34.93\00:35:36.76
The same as the
mother in Europe,
00:35:36.79\00:35:38.99
the same as the mother
in other part of the world.
00:35:39.02\00:35:41.02
They all respond to these,
00:35:41.05\00:35:43.30
understand these
basic messages that come
00:35:43.33\00:35:46.61
or communicated
through music in the same way.
00:35:46.64\00:35:48.70
So, yes, culture
is an important part,
00:35:49.11\00:35:51.16
but the basic concepts
of loud and softening music
00:35:51.33\00:35:54.35
and how we respond to
them are essentially at,
00:35:54.38\00:35:56.66
those basic levels are
same throughout all cultures.
00:35:56.69\00:35:59.43
And even the young
person who might be predisposed
00:35:59.84\00:36:03.32
to listening to
rap or heavy metal.
00:36:03.42\00:36:05.50
There are times when
even most young people
00:36:05.73\00:36:07.69
might listen to something
00:36:07.72\00:36:09.02
which is of more soft to nature.
00:36:09.05\00:36:10.70
Now it's true that we
can become desensitized
00:36:11.19\00:36:13.19
and develop a
taste for something.
00:36:13.22\00:36:14.91
But built into the human being
00:36:14.94\00:36:16.67
there is a basic understanding
of atmospheres in sound
00:36:16.70\00:36:21.35
and how we relate to
them and how we are affected.
00:36:21.38\00:36:23.47
Music communicates
atmosphere and tone.
00:36:23.72\00:36:25.94
We communicate atmosphere
and tone in our voices.
00:36:26.34\00:36:29.59
Any child who lives in
a home, with their parents
00:36:29.90\00:36:33.17
are shouting and screaming
at their child all the time
00:36:33.20\00:36:35.96
would eventually either
be completely desensitized
00:36:36.41\00:36:39.65
by that or
would want to move out
00:36:39.68\00:36:41.25
and go and live somewhere else.
00:36:41.28\00:36:42.62
Now if I'm
exposed to a kind of music
00:36:42.86\00:36:45.13
that is
continually screaming at me,
00:36:45.29\00:36:47.83
continually
communicating, harsher elements
00:36:47.86\00:36:49.99
and is communicating something
00:36:50.02\00:36:51.48
which is not positive or subtle
00:36:51.51\00:36:53.91
and appropriate for an occasion,
00:36:54.68\00:36:56.67
sooner or later I am either
going to become desensitized
00:36:57.16\00:36:59.45
or I am going to want to
experience something else.
00:37:00.16\00:37:03.20
And I have found one day
At a series of presentations
00:37:04.18\00:37:07.64
and a young man came to me after
00:37:07.67\00:37:09.07
I was speaking about
these aspect of desensitization
00:37:09.10\00:37:11.80
and music and he said to me,
00:37:12.22\00:37:14.04
I listen to heavy metal
thrash, punk house music
00:37:14.07\00:37:17.30
and I watch violent films and
00:37:17.33\00:37:19.03
they actually do nothing to me.
00:37:19.06\00:37:20.77
Man. Now, what he
was trying to say to me,
00:37:20.80\00:37:22.94
he was trying to say to me that,
00:37:22.97\00:37:24.08
it doesn't bother
me, so it's okay for me,
00:37:24.59\00:37:26.91
you know. The point is that
00:37:26.94\00:37:29.03
in his experience he would
reach that point in his life
00:37:29.51\00:37:32.71
where he had
become so desensitized
00:37:32.74\00:37:34.63
by what he had been
exposed to from childhood
00:37:34.66\00:37:36.71
already that nothing
touched him anymore. Okay.
00:37:36.74\00:37:40.03
And that is a dangerous
point for somebody to reach.
00:37:40.18\00:37:42.79
What do we do if people like
00:37:42.82\00:37:44.22
that when we are
bringing them into the Church
00:37:44.25\00:37:46.01
do we say because
you cannot listen to it
00:37:46.04\00:37:48.04
or you cannot see the wrong
in what you are experiencing
00:37:48.07\00:37:50.68
that that is what you
must not carry on receiving
00:37:50.71\00:37:52.77
while you're
coming to the Church
00:37:52.80\00:37:53.95
and of course I am
referring to the musical,
00:37:53.98\00:37:55.72
in the musical context
and unfortunately this happens
00:37:55.75\00:37:58.00
in many other areas of
people's lives as well.
00:37:58.03\00:38:00.06
No, what happens is
that people need to,
00:38:00.09\00:38:02.98
a reversal needs to take
place in their experience.
00:38:03.01\00:38:06.50
And they need to
become sensitized once again.
00:38:06.95\00:38:09.36
Our tastes need
to become sanctified
00:38:09.39\00:38:11.53
and we need to
start having an experience
00:38:11.95\00:38:14.36
and a relationship with God,
00:38:14.39\00:38:17.17
that will be speak the
kind of characteristics
00:38:17.20\00:38:20.00
that we find in Jesus Christ
and the kinds of interests
00:38:20.03\00:38:23.44
and desires and passions,
which we are starting to,
00:38:23.47\00:38:26.77
that are starting
to coming to our life,
00:38:26.80\00:38:28.68
need to confirm to
the Biblical criteria
00:38:28.71\00:38:30.94
of what is pure and
lovely and of a good report
00:38:30.97\00:38:33.90
he is praiseworthy and, you know
00:38:33.93\00:38:35.38
as Paul speaks in
Philippians chapter 4, verse 8.
00:38:35.41\00:38:38.21
So we cannot, what
we do when we cater
00:38:38.75\00:38:42.12
for the needs of those
coming into our Churches
00:38:42.15\00:38:45.04
by giving them that
much they already have.
00:38:45.07\00:38:47.32
What we are doing is
we'll assign to them its okay.
00:38:47.35\00:38:50.63
You can continue the way you are
00:38:51.44\00:38:53.32
and we are not
solving the problem.
00:38:53.35\00:38:54.63
We are feeding the problem
00:38:54.80\00:38:56.18
and we are making it even
worse at the end of the day.
00:38:56.21\00:38:59.02
You mentioned a little
earlier that the western world
00:38:59.18\00:39:01.38
has this certain idea of
what African music is like,
00:39:01.41\00:39:05.08
with rhythm, with
beat and with drums.
00:39:05.11\00:39:07.93
It brings me to the point about
00:39:09.15\00:39:10.75
how do different instruments
impact upon worship music?
00:39:10.78\00:39:14.25
For instance drums,
sometimes the electric guitar
00:39:14.28\00:39:17.03
are shunned by some people
with regard to worship music.
00:39:18.01\00:39:21.89
Other suggest no,
00:39:21.92\00:39:23.24
there is no
problem with them at all.
00:39:23.27\00:39:25.00
What's your
opinion in this area?
00:39:25.03\00:39:27.03
Well I, you know, after that
00:39:27.41\00:39:29.18
I would say from purely
a logical point of view.
00:39:29.21\00:39:34.08
No instrument in
of itself is wrong.
00:39:34.11\00:39:36.58
Whether it's a
drum or electric guitar,
00:39:37.10\00:39:38.43
whatever it may be I mean
00:39:38.46\00:39:39.75
if you get me electrical guitar
00:39:39.94\00:39:41.17
now I could make a sound,
which could be really peaceful
00:39:41.20\00:39:44.92
and very beautiful
depending on how I use it,
00:39:44.95\00:39:46.54
but then I could
take that same instrument
00:39:46.57\00:39:48.05
and I could make it
sound very aggressive
00:39:48.08\00:39:50.24
and very loud and very harsh.
00:39:50.27\00:39:51.70
So essentially how an
instrument is used really
00:39:52.45\00:39:55.91
essentially determines
what's going to be communicated.
00:39:55.94\00:39:58.89
The same with
drums, drums you know
00:39:58.92\00:40:00.78
by themselves
are not bad or evil,
00:40:00.81\00:40:02.54
although in the ancient context
00:40:02.57\00:40:05.00
when one looks at the
history of that instrument,
00:40:05.03\00:40:06.96
there are and many
other instruments as well.
00:40:06.99\00:40:09.18
They were used
perhaps in pagan worship
00:40:09.21\00:40:10.85
and whatever else.
00:40:10.88\00:40:11.85
But in and of
themselves they are not bad.
00:40:12.03\00:40:13.87
The problem is, I would say
00:40:14.21\00:40:16.77
and this is where instruments
for me become an issue.
00:40:16.80\00:40:19.77
The problem has to
do with the tendency
00:40:20.34\00:40:22.85
and so there are
certain practical issues
00:40:23.34\00:40:25.94
that one needs to consider
00:40:25.97\00:40:27.03
when you're speaking
about drums or electric guitars
00:40:27.06\00:40:30.25
or bands in the
context of worship,
00:40:30.28\00:40:31.99
because most guys today
who are learning to play drums
00:40:32.02\00:40:35.27
and let's face it.
When people are speaking
00:40:35.90\00:40:38.56
about bringing
drums into worship today,
00:40:38.59\00:40:40.59
it is normally the trap set
00:40:40.90\00:40:42.28
as its used in a
jazz band or a rock band
00:40:42.31\00:40:44.52
but we are not talking about
00:40:44.55\00:40:45.52
the practical
context of the drums.
00:40:45.55\00:40:47.86
Kettle drums and
the different musicians
00:40:47.89\00:40:50.19
using separate instruments.
00:40:50.22\00:40:51.22
So, generally it's
the, today I think it
00:40:51.25\00:40:52.81
in terms of electric
guitar, the base guitar,
00:40:52.84\00:40:55.06
the drums which the
base guitar, the drums,
00:40:55.09\00:40:57.12
the rhythm section.
00:40:57.15\00:40:58.12
And when they are saying
that what are they saying.
00:40:58.13\00:41:00.21
We want to bring
those instruments in why?
00:41:00.62\00:41:02.26
What do you
want to play with it?
00:41:02.29\00:41:03.47
Well, obviously if you
Bringing those instruments in,
00:41:03.50\00:41:05.47
you are probably
going to want to play
00:41:05.50\00:41:07.39
that kind of
contemporary type of music,
00:41:07.42\00:41:08.99
which most people
are into listening out
00:41:09.02\00:41:10.73
which has a rock base
00:41:10.76\00:41:12.29
for the jazz, rock
base for the music,
00:41:13.62\00:41:15.78
which means you are going to
be playing a fairly repetitive
00:41:16.26\00:41:19.03
syncopated type of rhythm,
00:41:19.06\00:41:20.61
which is probably
going to be fairly a lot,
00:41:20.64\00:41:23.37
I mean even a
normal drum kit today
00:41:23.48\00:41:25.08
even if you don't mic it up,
00:41:25.11\00:41:26.27
you got to turn those
instruments up to a level
00:41:26.30\00:41:28.24
that will compete
with that drum kit
00:41:28.27\00:41:29.52
and that's pretty loud.
00:41:29.71\00:41:31.11
Which means you are
going to be playing a rock,
00:41:31.50\00:41:33.62
pop whatever, funk whatever
style the music you're into,
00:41:33.65\00:41:36.75
but that's the kind of
music you are gonna play,
00:41:36.78\00:41:38.32
which means you are
going to be communicating
00:41:38.48\00:41:40.64
a certain kind of atmosphere.
At the end of the day
00:41:40.67\00:41:42.68
you are probably going to
be communicating an atmosphere,
00:41:42.71\00:41:45.25
which is more of a
night club contemporary,
00:41:45.28\00:41:48.45
you know, cafe
whatever kind of atmosphere
00:41:48.48\00:41:50.89
that you want to create
to attract the kind of crowd.
00:41:50.92\00:41:53.19
So my point is
the practical issue.
00:41:53.55\00:41:55.06
It may not be
that the drums are bad,
00:41:55.55\00:41:57.28
but the tendency
of most drummers today
00:41:57.44\00:41:59.68
and most guys who
are playing rock kit
00:41:59.71\00:42:01.83
or electrical guitars and
base guitar is to play the way
00:42:01.86\00:42:05.96
that they're being taught
to play and most of our people
00:42:05.99\00:42:08.77
today are learning to play drums
00:42:08.80\00:42:10.33
the way that you
learn to play them
00:42:10.36\00:42:11.38
in a jazz band or a rock band
00:42:11.41\00:42:12.61
and the big question
there is to be asked is,
00:42:12.64\00:42:14.26
is that appropriate
for worshiping a Holy God?
00:42:14.29\00:42:16.43
Yes. Does it create the
right kind of atmosphere
00:42:16.47\00:42:19.08
of reverence to
respect and all for a Holy God.
00:42:19.11\00:42:21.96
According to the
Bible definition,
00:42:21.99\00:42:23.72
if you want to look at it
from an Adventist prospective,
00:42:23.75\00:42:26.14
according to the definition
given in the spirit of prophecy
00:42:26.17\00:42:28.64
and the answer
comes back very loud
00:42:28.67\00:42:30.95
and clear from the
research which I have done
00:42:30.98\00:42:33.01
and the study which I have
done in the spirit of prophecy
00:42:33.04\00:42:35.57
that no, it does not.
00:42:35.60\00:42:36.67
And so from a
practical point of view,
00:42:36.89\00:42:38.58
then instruments
become a problem.
00:42:38.61\00:42:40.95
Not that they are wrong
but we might have to say
00:42:40.98\00:42:43.61
look after all God,
00:42:43.64\00:42:45.24
you know it's not
about instruments.
00:42:45.29\00:42:46.90
It's about whether we
are doing the right thing.
00:42:47.66\00:42:49.77
God doesn't require instruments
00:42:49.80\00:42:51.28
and if an instrument is
going to cause me to worship God
00:42:51.31\00:42:53.84
in the wrong way then it's
better not to have it at all.
00:42:53.87\00:42:56.51
Brian in my life time
I have seen a shift away
00:42:57.31\00:42:59.54
from a certain
type of Church music
00:42:59.57\00:43:03.18
to well for want
of a better term,
00:43:03.21\00:43:05.62
we got to be careful
00:43:05.65\00:43:06.62
because there is good
contemporary music as well.
00:43:06.63\00:43:08.44
Sure. But from
00:43:08.47\00:43:09.78
the more traditional
to the elements of music
00:43:09.81\00:43:12.69
which are beatty and
more syncopation there, etc.
00:43:12.72\00:43:15.54
What do you think
caused this attitude
00:43:15.94\00:43:17.54
change in the Christian Church?
00:43:17.57\00:43:19.42
Yeah, well this is something
00:43:19.45\00:43:21.17
which is developed over
the past 30 or 40 years.
00:43:21.20\00:43:25.01
One could say since the
introduction of rock and roll.
00:43:25.32\00:43:27.55
If you go to the contemporary
Christian music industry
00:43:27.58\00:43:29.46
they note to quote CCM
Magazine in an overall issue.
00:43:29.64\00:43:34.17
They noted that
00:43:34.20\00:43:35.17
Elvis Presley was the
first contemporary musician
00:43:35.18\00:43:37.61
and contemporary
Christian Rock musician
00:43:38.10\00:43:40.66
and that from that point in time
00:43:40.94\00:43:42.61
Christian music
started developing
00:43:43.79\00:43:45.40
or started
conforming to the trends
00:43:46.15\00:43:49.09
which one was finding
00:43:49.12\00:43:50.09
in the contemporary
worldly music industry.
00:43:50.10\00:43:52.02
Which of course
was The rock and roll,
00:43:52.05\00:43:53.65
rock based forms of music.
00:43:53.68\00:43:55.08
And so one
would Have to say that
00:43:55.99\00:43:58.26
I think the more
worldly or the more Christians
00:43:58.29\00:44:03.94
were exposed to worldly things
00:44:03.97\00:44:05.57
and allowed
themselves to be exposed
00:44:05.60\00:44:06.91
to move worldly
things and the more
00:44:06.94\00:44:08.19
they were attracted
to the worldly music,
00:44:08.22\00:44:10.00
the more the desire
grew within Christians
00:44:10.64\00:44:12.63
who want to emulate that
and experience it as well
00:44:12.66\00:44:15.37
in the context of their worship.
00:44:15.40\00:44:16.56
So, you know one
can blame the world
00:44:16.95\00:44:18.70
and say well
the world became bad
00:44:18.73\00:44:20.02
and we had bad
music in the world,
00:44:20.05\00:44:21.34
but the world is
really, the lies on Christians
00:44:21.37\00:44:24.27
who actually decided
that it would be okay
00:44:24.30\00:44:27.33
to blend this with
our Christian experience.
00:44:27.36\00:44:29.96
I mean let's face it
if you spend your week,
00:44:30.34\00:44:32.70
your life, your daily
normal contemporary life
00:44:33.01\00:44:36.20
involved in the
things of the world,
00:44:36.23\00:44:38.04
it will have an
effect on your spiritual life
00:44:38.30\00:44:40.29
eventually as well.
00:44:40.32\00:44:41.57
And so finally
Christianity has been impacted
00:44:42.20\00:44:44.65
by what it has chosen to
spend it's time focusing on.
00:44:44.68\00:44:48.20
And so the more we
are focused on the world,
00:44:48.75\00:44:50.51
the more the world
has had an effect on us.
00:44:50.80\00:44:52.77
Until the Point today
00:44:52.80\00:44:54.17
where essentially in areas
of entertainment and music,
00:44:54.20\00:44:57.70
there is
practically no difference
00:44:57.77\00:44:59.31
between
Christians and worldliness
00:44:59.71\00:45:01.42
and that has impacted
on the rest of our lives
00:45:01.45\00:45:03.82
because even you look
at divorce rate things
00:45:03.85\00:45:06.05
like adultery and whatever else,
00:45:06.08\00:45:07.53
Christians in
the Christian world
00:45:07.56\00:45:09.35
today and unfortunately
even in Adventism the statistics
00:45:09.38\00:45:12.06
seem to reflect
what is happening out
00:45:12.09\00:45:14.01
there in the general
worldly population as well.
00:45:14.04\00:45:16.22
So, I think worldliness
has had a huge impact
00:45:16.81\00:45:18.94
on how and why we have
gone this way with our music
00:45:18.97\00:45:21.71
and our worship. Most
definitely I have no doubt that.
00:45:21.74\00:45:24.91
And do you have any advice
00:45:25.15\00:45:26.12
on how we can
rectify that problem?
00:45:26.13\00:45:28.24
Getting back to the
word of God is the basis,
00:45:30.27\00:45:32.63
you know, for who we are.
00:45:32.66\00:45:34.58
Getting back to those
00:45:34.61\00:45:35.58
fundamental Biblical principles,
00:45:35.61\00:45:37.64
getting back to the moral stand
00:45:37.67\00:45:39.93
that God has set for us as
it be given to us as a people.
00:45:39.96\00:45:43.21
And yes, focusing
our attention on things
00:45:43.90\00:45:46.20
that are truly spiritual
00:45:46.23\00:45:47.93
rather than trying to have this,
00:45:47.96\00:45:51.55
should we call it a, this kind
of new type of spirituality,
00:45:51.58\00:45:58.42
which seems to neo spirituality,
00:45:58.45\00:46:00.80
one can call it that.
00:46:00.83\00:46:01.80
Which seems To Blend
00:46:01.81\00:46:02.91
the contemporary secular
life style and secularism
00:46:02.94\00:46:06.64
by definition really
means something without,
00:46:06.67\00:46:08.45
that is without God.
So there is no such thing
00:46:08.48\00:46:11.63
as secular Christianity either
it's Christianity or it is
00:46:11.66\00:46:14.39
secular. And if it becomes
secular it's not Christianity
00:46:14.42\00:46:17.14
according to true
definition anymore.
00:46:17.17\00:46:18.80
So we need to
focus on the word of God
00:46:18.83\00:46:20.69
and focus on real
Christian values once again,
00:46:20.72\00:46:25.49
so that they will
become the basis of our life.
00:46:26.12\00:46:29.05
Are you able to summarize
for us what the word of God
00:46:29.08\00:46:31.34
does say with regard
to certain types of music,
00:46:31.37\00:46:34.32
what's wholesome
what's not wholesome
00:46:34.35\00:46:36.03
or is there any Biblical mandate
00:46:36.06\00:46:38.21
or any parameters
set by the scriptures
00:46:38.24\00:46:40.36
that help us to
decide what music is good?
00:46:40.39\00:46:42.79
Yes, I would say there is
no direct definitive statement
00:46:43.41\00:46:47.32
that says unlike
the spirit of prophecy
00:46:47.35\00:46:49.58
where we might define
some very clear guidelines,
00:46:49.61\00:46:52.19
which most people
don't want to read today,
00:46:52.22\00:46:54.17
but that's another
topic on all itself.
00:46:54.68\00:46:56.59
But yes, there is certainly
ease in the word of God,
00:46:56.62\00:46:58.99
some clear
guidelines that we can use
00:46:59.18\00:47:02.42
for every aspect of our lives.
00:47:02.45\00:47:04.49
For example when I think of,
00:47:04.52\00:47:06.16
if you don't mind
me taking my Bible,
00:47:06.19\00:47:07.61
when I think of what it says in
00:47:07.64\00:47:10.11
the book of First Corinthians
00:47:10.14\00:47:11.56
and I will highlight
that first of all then
00:47:12.39\00:47:14.14
I'll look at one or two
another aspects as well.
00:47:14.17\00:47:16.19
First Corinthians, chapter 3,
and I am looking at verses 16,
00:47:17.32\00:47:31.13
where Paul here writing
to the Corinthians says,
00:47:31.57\00:47:33.94
don't you know that
you are the temple of God
00:47:34.65\00:47:37.37
and that the Spirit
of God dwells in you.
00:47:37.40\00:47:41.29
If any man
defiles the Temple of God,
00:47:41.32\00:47:43.75
him shall God destroy for
the temple of God is holy,
00:47:43.78\00:47:47.03
which temple you are.
Let no man deceive himself.
00:47:47.06\00:47:50.48
If any man among you
in this world seems wise,
00:47:50.51\00:47:53.04
let him become a
fool that he maybe wise.
00:47:53.25\00:47:55.65
What Paul saying at us is
00:47:55.68\00:47:57.62
our bodies are
the temple of God,
00:47:58.64\00:47:59.90
if we are bringing things in,
00:47:59.93\00:48:01.11
whether it be for entertainment,
00:48:01.14\00:48:02.41
whether it be through
the atmospheres of sound
00:48:02.44\00:48:04.55
which we're daily
exposing ourselves to,
00:48:04.58\00:48:06.60
that are actually
destructive to the body temple.
00:48:06.90\00:48:09.28
We can say this on a
collective blood basis
00:48:09.79\00:48:11.49
or an individual basis,
00:48:11.52\00:48:13.14
corporately or individually then
00:48:13.17\00:48:15.66
there is a
price to pay for that.
00:48:16.39\00:48:17.96
And so we need to,
that for me is a very
00:48:19.14\00:48:22.00
clear guideline because
the wisdom of this world
00:48:22.03\00:48:24.52
when you think of the
whole counter culture revolution
00:48:24.55\00:48:27.53
and what started back in the 50s
00:48:27.79\00:48:29.63
and the philosophy that
guided the counter culture
00:48:29.66\00:48:31.93
and music was one
of the major vehicles
00:48:31.96\00:48:33.77
that guided
that counter culture.
00:48:33.80\00:48:35.09
Their philosophy was
if it feels good, do it.
00:48:35.12\00:48:37.54
Do what you want to
do. That's the basic thing.
00:48:37.70\00:48:39.84
May not be good
for somebody else,
00:48:40.56\00:48:41.73
but you do what
you feel like doing,
00:48:41.76\00:48:42.97
but the word of God
says, no, that's not true.
00:48:43.00\00:48:44.82
The wisdom of the world,
00:48:45.36\00:48:46.33
Jesus says here through
Paul is, foolishness with God.
00:48:46.35\00:48:49.62
For the wisdom of
this fool, it is written
00:48:49.65\00:48:52.13
that he take up the
wise in their craftiness.
00:48:52.86\00:48:54.82
That's the one
principle. The other principle
00:48:54.85\00:48:56.51
that I'd like to
bring your attention.
00:48:56.54\00:48:58.09
In Philippians
chapter 4, Verse 8,
00:48:58.12\00:49:02.67
which I alluded to a
little bit, a little while ago.
00:49:02.98\00:49:04.65
Your no doubt familiar
with that text. 4, verse 8,
00:49:07.87\00:49:11.52
which says, finally brethren,
whatsoever things are true,
00:49:11.55\00:49:15.58
whatsoever things are honest,
whatsoever things are just,
00:49:15.61\00:49:18.41
whatsoever things are pure,
whatsoever things are lovely,
00:49:18.44\00:49:22.14
whatsoever things
are of a good report,
00:49:22.17\00:49:24.26
if there would be any virtue
00:49:24.29\00:49:25.92
and if there would be
anything praise-worthy,
00:49:25.95\00:49:28.53
think on these things.
And now people will say
00:49:28.91\00:49:31.97
that's fine, but
depends on your definition
00:49:32.00\00:49:33.89
of what's good
and true and virtuous.
00:49:33.92\00:49:35.57
Then my reply is, no,
Paul is writing here from
00:49:35.98\00:49:38.60
the definition of what
God considers to be virtuous,
00:49:38.63\00:49:41.18
not man's definition because
it's become so messed up.
00:49:41.21\00:49:43.78
So whatever
confirms to those qualities
00:49:44.03\00:49:46.83
whether it would be from
the musical point of view,
00:49:46.86\00:49:48.87
entertainment, whatever it
may be then think on the word
00:49:48.90\00:49:52.09
they think in the
Greek is the word [GREEK]
00:49:52.12\00:49:56.03
and we get the
English word "logic"
00:49:56.06\00:49:58.31
that comes from that
root word in the Greek.
00:49:58.34\00:50:00.88
And simply it means you'll
fill your brain essentially
00:50:00.91\00:50:04.35
with things that can
confirm to those things.
00:50:04.38\00:50:06.32
So Paul says, what
you put into your mind,
00:50:06.35\00:50:08.53
the temple of God can
either be good or bad,
00:50:08.56\00:50:10.64
it can be destructive.
00:50:10.67\00:50:11.64
Let's make sure that
what we put in can confirm
00:50:11.87\00:50:15.61
to all these qualities and
criteria that Paul spells out
00:50:15.64\00:50:18.82
here in
Philippians chapter 4 verse 8.
00:50:18.85\00:50:20.62
Then we can know
that what we are doing
00:50:20.65\00:50:22.78
according to what Paul says in
00:50:22.81\00:50:23.97
First Corinthians, chapter 10.
00:50:24.00\00:50:26.87
I think, its verse
31. Then we will know
00:50:26.90\00:50:29.03
that all things
that we do will be done
00:50:29.06\00:50:32.36
to the honor and glory of God.
00:50:32.39\00:50:33.93
Whatsoever you do, do to
the honor and glory of God.
00:50:33.96\00:50:36.26
It's simple but it's Profound
00:50:36.58\00:50:38.30
because these principles apply
00:50:38.33\00:50:39.81
not only to
what we eat or drink.
00:50:39.84\00:50:41.63
They apply to
everything in our life.
00:50:41.66\00:50:43.83
Yes, here is another simple
but profound I think help,
00:50:44.15\00:50:47.59
when we read scripture.
00:50:47.62\00:50:49.03
As we have just read
Philippians 4 and verse 8
00:50:49.43\00:50:51.55
people often say,
well, what that means to me
00:50:51.58\00:50:54.14
may be different to
what it means to you.
00:50:54.69\00:50:56.65
What I like to say is
let's try and identify
00:50:57.50\00:51:00.34
what it means to God.
00:51:00.39\00:51:02.00
Not so much the
difference between
00:51:02.32\00:51:03.88
what it means to
me and means to you.
00:51:03.91\00:51:05.43
That's simple, but
it also a very profound.
00:51:05.46\00:51:08.25
What does the
scripture mean to God?
00:51:08.51\00:51:10.60
That's what we need to.
00:51:10.63\00:51:12.57
Yes and that's exactly
the point that was made
00:51:12.60\00:51:14.36
because it's God definition
of these things that count.
00:51:14.39\00:51:17.06
Not my definition. I
mean if I have to rely
00:51:17.09\00:51:19.29
on my definition of
what is right and wrong,
00:51:19.32\00:51:21.16
you could end up with
a pretty weird scenario
00:51:22.07\00:51:24.15
at the end of the
day. I mean let's face it.
00:51:24.18\00:51:26.13
All of us have
been desensitized.
00:51:26.16\00:51:27.74
There is no way even if we are,
00:51:27.77\00:51:29.34
even secular people will admit
00:51:29.37\00:51:32.08
that there is such a thing
as desensitization that can take
00:51:32.11\00:51:35.12
place. And desensitization
is not just something
00:51:35.15\00:51:37.69
that comes out of the blue.
00:51:37.72\00:51:38.70
Desensitization takes place with
00:51:38.73\00:51:41.31
regards to the choices and
things that I've made in life.
00:51:41.34\00:51:45.13
What I have decided,
what I have looked at,
00:51:45.16\00:51:46.41
what I have
occupied my time with,
00:51:46.44\00:51:47.95
those things I surround myself
00:51:47.98\00:51:49.45
with can either
promote a good experience,
00:51:49.48\00:51:52.35
promote a good
character within me
00:51:52.38\00:51:54.22
or promote a
negative character within me.
00:51:54.25\00:51:56.41
And so we need to
look at a higher criteria
00:51:56.84\00:52:00.41
for determining right and
wrong than just our personal
00:52:00.44\00:52:03.07
selves. Brian, the cunning
devil often gets to people
00:52:03.10\00:52:07.01
with music when
they're over at a young age.
00:52:07.04\00:52:09.10
As he did in your
case. Do you have some advise
00:52:09.13\00:52:12.56
for parents of children who
are listening to popular music
00:52:12.59\00:52:16.94
to may be even
heavy metal music.
00:52:16.97\00:52:19.15
What words can you
tell those parents?
00:52:19.58\00:52:21.40
Well, I would say first
of all if you are parent,
00:52:22.06\00:52:25.36
you are the
authority in your home.
00:52:25.39\00:52:27.80
And in your
home you've obviously
00:52:28.70\00:52:30.35
or should have
established certain standards
00:52:30.38\00:52:32.48
with regards to what you feel
is appropriate in your home.
00:52:32.51\00:52:35.01
First thing I would say,
is do not contradict your
00:52:35.52\00:52:39.83
standards yourself. Be the
example to your children that
00:52:39.86\00:52:43.68
you should be, because sooner
or later children will look at
00:52:43.71\00:52:45.87
you and say, you're
telling me not to do this,
00:52:45.90\00:52:48.25
but you are. And then secondly,
00:52:48.79\00:52:52.16
I would say, allow your children
00:52:52.19\00:52:53.33
to make their choices,
but maintain a standard
00:52:53.36\00:52:56.45
that will bring honor and glory
00:52:57.03\00:52:58.80
and do it in
love and in a spirit
00:52:58.83\00:53:03.23
that is the Spirit of Christ.
00:53:03.26\00:53:05.09
While you are guiding
them, be firm but be loving.
00:53:05.12\00:53:08.56
Yeah, That's right.
00:53:08.59\00:53:10.00
And I suppose
sometimes in our own homes
00:53:10.03\00:53:12.60
we tend to let the children
00:53:12.63\00:53:14.71
because we hear it so
much outside the home.
00:53:15.23\00:53:17.42
So, then I realize that
00:53:17.45\00:53:18.84
I need to do
these things themselves,
00:53:18.87\00:53:21.16
they need to find
out for themselves
00:53:21.19\00:53:23.20
but sometimes they really
playing with fire aren't they.
00:53:23.23\00:53:26.28
That there is
just so much inherently
00:53:26.31\00:53:28.24
wrong in the wrong sort of music
00:53:28.27\00:53:30.31
that can cause
this desensitization
00:53:30.34\00:53:33.21
in the young children.
00:53:33.88\00:53:35.08
That's why I
said parents must be
00:53:35.11\00:53:36.72
be firm and must
let the children know
00:53:36.75\00:53:39.30
that this is not
what we allow in our home.
00:53:39.55\00:53:41.36
But at the end of
the day, you know,
00:53:41.47\00:53:43.26
especially when
children get older they
00:53:43.29\00:53:44.43
have to make those
choices for themselves.
00:53:44.46\00:53:46.22
Yes. And when they leave
home and they go out there.
00:53:46.25\00:53:49.29
They got to decide, am I
going to do that or am I not.
00:53:49.32\00:53:51.62
And if we've set a
good foundation at home,
00:53:51.65\00:53:53.97
it will stand your
children in good stead,
00:53:54.60\00:53:56.98
even though like in my case,
00:53:57.01\00:53:58.37
they might call
go off the rails.
00:53:58.40\00:53:59.54
There will be that memory,
00:54:00.92\00:54:01.93
there will be that knowledge
of what they have learned
00:54:01.96\00:54:04.01
and it will
eventually play a role
00:54:04.04\00:54:06.48
if they finally
decide to do that because
00:54:07.25\00:54:09.22
that's the choice
that everyone makes,
00:54:09.25\00:54:10.45
but if we play a role
00:54:10.48\00:54:11.88
we're bring them
back to God one day
00:54:11.91\00:54:14.29
and helping them to
re-established that,
00:54:14.62\00:54:17.42
which they might
have neglected to
00:54:17.45\00:54:19.57
actually establish when
they were young children.
00:54:19.60\00:54:21.84
Our time is nearly finished,
00:54:22.34\00:54:24.01
but before we do
close with a word of prayer.
00:54:24.36\00:54:26.94
Would we like to give
some final words of council
00:54:26.97\00:54:29.63
about this topic of music,
00:54:30.69\00:54:32.08
not only just from
the Church point of view,
00:54:32.69\00:54:34.85
but also I just feel people
00:54:34.88\00:54:36.67
who may be
getting to know Jesus now.
00:54:36.70\00:54:39.01
For those who are
getting to know Jesus
00:54:39.18\00:54:41.05
and for those who
are even in the Church.
00:54:41.08\00:54:44.58
That gets back to the text
00:54:45.20\00:54:46.46
which I referred to earlier on,
00:54:46.49\00:54:48.09
First Corinthians
chapter 10, verse 31, 32;
00:54:48.61\00:54:52.15
where Paul says
whatsoever you do,
00:54:52.18\00:54:53.87
whether your eat,
whether your drink?
00:54:53.90\00:54:55.71
Whatsoever you do, do
it all to the glory of God?
00:54:56.46\00:55:00.41
If you can really
honestly say in your heart
00:55:00.44\00:55:03.73
of hearts that yes, I
am without holding back,
00:55:03.76\00:55:06.84
without saying, you're
reserving something for
00:55:06.87\00:55:08.85
self.
Surrendering everything to God,
00:55:08.88\00:55:11.64
if you can say really I am,
00:55:11.67\00:55:13.06
honestly doing all I
can do to the glory of God,
00:55:13.09\00:55:15.45
then praise the Lord,
00:55:15.48\00:55:16.45
but let's be
sure that we do that
00:55:16.46\00:55:18.72
and that we allow the Lord.
00:55:18.75\00:55:19.72
It does not happen over night
00:55:20.12\00:55:21.32
when you reach the point
00:55:21.35\00:55:22.32
where you are doing
everything perfectly,
00:55:22.33\00:55:24.00
but let's allow the
Lord to help us grow
00:55:24.03\00:55:26.93
and step by step reach
that point in our experience
00:55:26.96\00:55:31.95
where we are in
the full of sense
00:55:32.01\00:55:34.30
doing what we are
doing to the glory of God.
00:55:34.33\00:55:36.37
Yes, And it's a day
by day thing, isn't it?
00:55:36.40\00:55:38.99
It's a day by day process,
00:55:39.02\00:55:41.38
it's day by day commitment
00:55:41.41\00:55:42.72
to aim to do
everything to the glory of God
00:55:42.88\00:55:46.06
whatever we do, that's the show.
00:55:46.35\00:55:49.24
I think that's important.
00:55:49.56\00:55:51.12
Well, our time is nearly up
00:55:51.49\00:55:53.25
and I would like
to thank you Brian,
00:55:53.28\00:55:55.16
as I said for. for
taking the time out of your
00:55:55.19\00:55:56.91
busy schedule to
talk with us today
00:55:56.94\00:55:57.91
about this most important topic.
00:55:58.99\00:56:00.99
One thing folks, which
has certainly come home to
00:56:01.11\00:56:04.33
me even more strong
now as I speak with Brain.
00:56:04.36\00:56:07.36
Is the fact that music
is definitely not neutral?
00:56:07.39\00:56:10.64
Music does have an affect,
that affect can be positive,
00:56:10.67\00:56:14.94
that affect can be negative.
00:56:15.19\00:56:17.16
The other
important point, I suppose,
00:56:17.19\00:56:19.57
given that music
often comes into our lives
00:56:19.60\00:56:22.85
at a very young age.
00:56:22.88\00:56:23.93
Is that we need to
be absolutely certain,
00:56:24.12\00:56:26.67
that what goes into
our mind is something
00:56:26.70\00:56:29.87
which is wholesome
and good and the verse
00:56:29.90\00:56:32.14
that you've mentioned
Philippians 4 and verse 8,
00:56:32.17\00:56:34.34
that's an old encomposing verse.
00:56:34.37\00:56:36.33
It's a very comprehensive verse.
00:56:36.36\00:56:37.96
It's a verse which gives
us a number of guidelines
00:56:37.99\00:56:40.77
and parameters by
which we can live our life
00:56:40.80\00:56:43.95
and we really need
to look to those things
00:56:44.09\00:56:47.67
which are pure and
just enough good report
00:56:47.70\00:56:50.38
as Paul suggests we do.
00:56:50.41\00:56:52.12
Jesus loves our
children, as parents
00:56:52.22\00:56:55.16
we love our children
00:56:55.19\00:56:56.77
and it's most important
that we provide to them.
00:56:56.80\00:57:00.80
The best atmosphere in
their home and in our Church,
00:57:00.83\00:57:04.20
to encourage them to walk
with the Lord as they grow old,
00:57:04.84\00:57:08.79
as was the case with
Brian and many others.
00:57:08.82\00:57:11.41
What we show them
in our Christian homes
00:57:11.44\00:57:13.84
is something
that remains with them
00:57:13.87\00:57:16.14
for the rest of their lives
00:57:16.17\00:57:17.35
and of course as we worship God,
00:57:17.38\00:57:19.51
we know he is on high,
just listening as the audience
00:57:19.54\00:57:24.91
that we provide for
him this great worship
00:57:24.94\00:57:30.79
in music and so
thanks Brian once again.
00:57:30.82\00:57:33.59
Let's bow our
heads in a word of pray.
00:57:33.62\00:57:35.73
Our loving heavenly Father,
00:57:36.21\00:57:37.35
I thank you so much for the time
00:57:37.38\00:57:38.86
that we've been able
to spent with Brian today.
00:57:38.89\00:57:40.96
I thank you for his ministry
00:57:40.99\00:57:42.19
and I ask you should bless him
00:57:42.22\00:57:44.34
in his ministry as he goes
to different parts of the world.
00:57:44.37\00:57:47.14
I pray the Lord that
he will be with us now
00:57:47.17\00:57:49.63
as we depart and as
we go our separate ways.
00:57:49.66\00:57:52.79
May we do everything
as we've mentioned here
00:57:52.98\00:57:53.95
before to your honor and glory
00:57:55.66\00:57:57.65
is our prayer in
Jesus name, Amen.
00:57:57.68\00:58:00.09