Welcome to the 3ABN
Spring Camp Meeting:
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The Three Angels' Messages.
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Again we bid you good morning.
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You know you almost want to say
good morning and happy Sabbath,
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but it is not quite Sabbath yet.
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This is the day
prior to the Sabbath -
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the Preparation Day -
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and we are preparing
our hearts to meet the Lord
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in a very
special way on tomorrow.
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But again, Shelley Quinn
did such a very fine job -
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Amen! and we
praise the Lord for that
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powerful and impressive message
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that was filled
with the Spirit of God.
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In the second hour we
have a very good friend
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of this ministry, and
that is Pastor Steve Wohlberg
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who is speaker/director
of White Horse Media
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and has been doing
such a very very fine job.
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When last we saw Steve
- and this is no secret -
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he was going through a
particularly ferocious attack
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of the enemy. He
was losing sleep;
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losing weight; going
through panic attacks,
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anxiety. A number of
things were happening
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in his life that originally
could not be diagnosed.
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But you know, we
serve a good God. Amen!
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We serve a powerful
God; we serve a healing God.
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And when I saw him a
few moments ago I said:
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"Praise the Lord, you've
put on a little weight. "
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And he gladly
admitted that he had.
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For most of us that
is not a good thing.
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For him it was.
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And he's gotten a little
fairer... just a little fatter.
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And we praise the Lord for it.
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He is the husband
of one wife: Kristen,
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and he has two wonderful
children that he dotes on:
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Seth and Abigail. And we
watched them sort of grow up
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here at 3ABN. So together
they make a formidable tool
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in the hand of God for
the salvation of the souls
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of men and women.
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Steve is going to pick up pretty
much where Shelley left off
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and follow in
the train of thought.
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His subject is: The
Smoke of Their Torment.
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So you see he
follows in the same train
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and in the same
scheme. Already my sister has
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has called me from
Buffalo, NY, and she said:
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"I want a copy of everything! "
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Amen! So I am remanded to
get a tape, or rather a CD,
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of everything so
that she can have them.
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And that may be a
good thing for you, too.
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Because a lot of information
is coming and it's coming fast,
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it's coming furious.
And you cannot get it all
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on the first pass. You need
to listen to it again and again.
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Sort of sit down and
sort of wade through it
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very slowly
because a lot of very good
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very pertinent
information is coming
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vis-à-vis the
three angels' messages.
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So we want to
thank you for being here.
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We want to welcome our in-house
audience which has grown
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since last evening
and we suspect will grow
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during the course of the day.
And of course we want to welcome
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our audience by way
of television or radio
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or Internet. My
sister is a computer person
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and watches
everything on her computer.
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So I know she's
watching on the computer.
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And she says: "I'm
not leaving the house!
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I may not even get
dressed. I just may just...
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just stay in my
bathrobe all day and watch,
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watch, watch. And just
leave to go to the kitchen,
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get some food, and then
come back to the computer.
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And there are many who do that.
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A friend of mine,
they call it a stinky day.
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She and her husband... She said:
"We get up, we brush our teeth,
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and that's it. Then we're
in front of the television set
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all day long. Well,
we don't suggest that
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necessarily
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but we do want you to
be part of this experience.
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And if you're in the
area and can get here,
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please do get here.
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Our special music is coming from
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Celestine Barry-Dickens
and her daughter Farrah.
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This is a mother
and daughter team
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that are doing such a very
very fine job for the Lord.
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They are going to sing
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and then the next
voice that you will hear
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will be that of our
friend Pastor Steve Wohlberg.
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He of White Horse
Media. Shall we pray?
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Father God, we take now
this moment to call upon You.
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We recognize Your presence;
we understand Your power.
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We know the
goodness of Your Word.
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Please, dear
Father, be the invited guest
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but in a special
way be the teacher.
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Speak to Steve
and then be pleased
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to speak through him to us
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who need to hear a
word from the Lord.
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We praise You and
thank you, dear Father,
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for your goodness, Your
grace, and Your promise to hear
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the prayer of faith.
In Jesus' name, Amen.
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I lift my eyes
when I am troubled.
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I lift my
hands; I lift my heart.
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And there I stand
knowing nothing can defeat me
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just as long as I know
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where You are.
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In You alone
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is where I find my comfort.
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And You alone...
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You're my only hope.
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In You alone
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my soul has found
a resting place...
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in You alone...
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in You alone.
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So I won't fear
though darkness hides me.
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No, I won't let my courage sway.
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For You are near
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and at the
brightness of Your glory
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the shadows of the night
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melt away!
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In You alone
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is promise I can cling to.
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In You alone
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You're my security.
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In You alone
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my soul has found
a dwelling place...
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only in You alone.
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What could separate me
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from Your love?
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Neither life nor death
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nor anything at all...
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anything at all.
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In You alone
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is where I find my comfort.
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In You alone
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You're my only hope.
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In You alone
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my heart has
found a resting place.
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Only in You
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alone...
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Only in You
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alone...
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Only in You
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alone!
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Amen!
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Thank you.
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All right.
Well, praise the Lord!
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Good morning
everyone. Good morning!
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God is good. All the time!
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Ah, thank you Lord
Jesus that I'm here.
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What a blessing.
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Just yesterday I drove
to Spokane, Washington,
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and parked at the airport.
And parked on the third floor
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of the big parking garage
which I park at many times.
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And I'll confess that
sometimes since I travel a lot
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I sometimes forget where I park.
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So as I was walking
out of my car and I noticed
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third floor I thought: "OK, now
how am I going to remember this?
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Third floor. " And then I
thought: "Oh, that's easy!
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I'm going to 3ABN
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and I'm talking about
the three angels' messages
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so this is very easy. "
00:10:08.34\00:10:10.17
Praise the Lord!
Amen! Oh, God is good.
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C.A. Murray mentioned that
I've had some trials in my life
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but the Lord has
brought me through.
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Amen! Praise His
name... God is so good.
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So I'm thrilled to be
here and thrilled to build on
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that last presentation.
Shelley, I see you out there.
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That was a masterpiece
- Amen - of information.
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I was listening on
my phone on the way here
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and they were looking
for me. "Where is Steve? "
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And I was in the back
there listening to Shelley.
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So Dee came back
and was in a panic.
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"Where is he? "
"Oh... you're here. "
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And I just praise the
Lord... that was wonderful.
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All right. If you have your
Bibles I invite you to open up
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to Revelation chapter 14.
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We are building on the
three angels' messages.
00:10:55.78\00:11:00.02
I have another confession to
make: I left my regular glasses,
00:11:03.29\00:11:05.93
my preaching
glasses, in our studio
00:11:06.13\00:11:08.63
in North Idaho, so I've
got my Dollar Store glasses.
00:11:08.83\00:11:11.87
My reading glasses...
but they'll have to do.
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My topic - as
you've probably seen -
00:11:17.94\00:11:21.01
is one little phrase in
the third angel's message
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which is in verse 11
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talking about the smoke...
"the smoke of their torment. "
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That is my topic. Wow!
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So that's something...
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Somebody else had
the everlasting gospel
00:11:42.26\00:11:45.13
and I've got the torment text.
00:11:45.63\00:11:48.74
But, you know, we
need to talk about this.
00:11:51.14\00:11:53.74
So I'm going to build on top
of what Shelley has just shared.
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So let's pray another prayer
and pray for God's blessing.
00:11:57.75\00:12:01.48
Heavenly Father, thank
you so much that I can be here
00:12:02.55\00:12:06.72
at 3ABN. That we're all here
00:12:06.92\00:12:10.36
and we have a chance to
be part of a movement...
00:12:10.76\00:12:12.93
a movement of God.
Sharing and teaching and
00:12:13.13\00:12:16.00
preaching the three angels'
messages around the world.
00:12:16.20\00:12:18.53
So we pray that during this time
00:12:18.93\00:12:21.50
that again Your Holy Spirit will
be here and bless with power.
00:12:21.70\00:12:25.97
Please help me as I
dive into Your Word.
00:12:26.37\00:12:30.05
In the name of Jesus
Christ we pray, Amen. Amen!
00:12:30.45\00:12:34.35
Amen. OK... the
smoke of their torment.
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That's what verse 11 says:
"The smoke of their torment
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ascends up forever and ever
00:12:45.19\00:12:48.43
and they have no rest day
or night who worship the beast
00:12:48.63\00:12:51.07
and his image and whoever
receives the mark of his name. "
00:12:51.27\00:12:56.00
Now the first thing I
want to say is that this is
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a very serious verse.
00:12:58.41\00:13:00.24
It's very real and
it is going to happen
00:13:01.34\00:13:04.91
to those who get
the mark of the beast.
00:13:05.11\00:13:07.15
And so we need to make
sure that we are on Jesus' side
00:13:07.55\00:13:11.39
and that we don't get that mark.
00:13:11.79\00:13:14.06
That's for sure.
00:13:14.42\00:13:15.76
Now next point
is that this verse
00:13:15.92\00:13:18.83
about smoke
ascending up forever and ever
00:13:19.03\00:13:22.76
is often used - as
Shelley so eloquently spoke of
00:13:22.96\00:13:28.90
just a little bit
ago - is often used
00:13:29.10\00:13:30.97
to support the idea
that people will burn
00:13:31.17\00:13:35.98
at the end of time. And
many people believe that
00:13:36.18\00:13:40.75
they're burning now and
that they will continue to burn.
00:13:40.95\00:13:43.99
Those who are lost
will burn and burn and burn
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and burn and
burn and burn and burn
00:13:46.49\00:13:48.02
and never stop burning
00:13:48.22\00:13:49.56
and their smoke will be
rising up for all eternity.
00:13:50.26\00:13:53.76
Let me just tell
you a little story.
00:13:54.60\00:13:56.56
Many of you know this: that
I did not grow up a Christian.
00:13:57.23\00:13:59.67
I grew up in a Jewish
home in southern California.
00:13:59.87\00:14:02.60
My family: we never read
the Bible, we never prayed.
00:14:02.80\00:14:05.31
I was a lost teenager
00:14:05.51\00:14:08.04
involved in drugs and
all kinds of crazy things.
00:14:08.24\00:14:10.48
When I was about 19 I
began to run into Christians
00:14:10.68\00:14:13.98
who began to witness
to me in strange places
00:14:14.18\00:14:16.58
and plant seeds.
00:14:16.99\00:14:18.62
And I think I was 20
years old. I was in Los Angeles
00:14:18.82\00:14:21.72
and I had a job down there.
And I had actually just started
00:14:21.92\00:14:25.63
reading the Bible because
of the different Christians
00:14:25.83\00:14:28.70
that had been witnessing to me.
00:14:28.90\00:14:30.23
So I found a Bible; I
started reading one day
00:14:30.27\00:14:32.13
in a break that
I had from my job.
00:14:32.33\00:14:35.57
And this man walked up to me -
00:14:35.77\00:14:37.54
a black man, a young man -
00:14:37.74\00:14:39.67
and he said:
"What are you reading? "
00:14:39.87\00:14:41.71
And I said: "I'm
reading the Bible.
00:14:42.34\00:14:44.21
Have you ever read this
book? It's very interesting. "
00:14:44.41\00:14:46.31
And he said: "Yes I have. "
00:14:46.72\00:14:48.88
He said: "My name is Michael. "
00:14:49.08\00:14:50.72
And he introduced himself,
told me he was studying for
00:14:50.92\00:14:53.09
the ministry and wanted to
know if I would like to come
00:14:53.29\00:14:56.26
to church with him sometime.
00:14:56.46\00:14:57.86
So I had actually
never been to church...
00:14:58.66\00:15:01.56
to a Christian church before.
00:15:01.76\00:15:03.10
So I gave him my phone number.
Sometime later he called me up
00:15:03.60\00:15:06.07
and we connected. And
I drove from Studio City
00:15:06.27\00:15:10.74
all the way down to
downtown Los Angeles
00:15:10.94\00:15:13.01
on Slauson
Avenue. Still remember it.
00:15:13.21\00:15:15.04
And one Sunday morning
walked into an all-black Baptist
00:15:15.44\00:15:17.88
church. I was the
only white person there.
00:15:18.08\00:15:21.32
And it was very
noticeable that I was there.
00:15:21.82\00:15:24.95
And the pastor...
I still remember him.
00:15:26.92\00:15:29.76
His name was Pastor Harper.
00:15:29.96\00:15:31.93
Got acquainted
with me and after church
00:15:32.33\00:15:35.20
he invited me to his house.
00:15:35.40\00:15:36.97
So I went over to his house.
00:15:37.17\00:15:38.50
And we talked for a while
and he was interested in me...
00:15:38.53\00:15:42.47
good, nice man.
00:15:42.67\00:15:44.01
And I still remember:
he sat me down at a table
00:15:44.11\00:15:46.71
and he took his
finger and he drew a circle
00:15:46.91\00:15:49.94
on the table - just an
imaginary circle - and he said:
00:15:50.15\00:15:52.28
"This is like the universe. "
And he said: "One of these days
00:15:52.48\00:15:55.32
at the very end of time
the people that are lost
00:15:56.35\00:15:59.79
God is going to take them
all and He's going to put them
00:15:59.99\00:16:01.86
outside this circle in a
place called outer darkness.
00:16:02.06\00:16:04.96
And there they're going to
burn forever and ever and ever
00:16:05.16\00:16:10.67
in a place called
hell. " Still remember that.
00:16:11.17\00:16:13.64
And I remember
getting into my car that day
00:16:14.07\00:16:16.71
and driving back through
Los Angeles toward the valley
00:16:16.91\00:16:19.97
and it was surreal.
00:16:21.21\00:16:23.98
I remember just
looking... I was on the freeway
00:16:24.18\00:16:26.18
and I saw all these
cars and all these people
00:16:26.38\00:16:28.08
all around me and
I thought to myself:
00:16:28.28\00:16:29.98
"They're all going to hell. "
00:16:30.39\00:16:32.05
And I had just
learned this idea:
00:16:33.29\00:16:35.52
they're going to be
lost forever and ever!
00:16:35.72\00:16:37.26
And that night I was
home at my dad's house
00:16:37.46\00:16:41.70
and I remember... And my
dad still remembers this...
00:16:41.90\00:16:44.10
he's 88 years
old, still alive...
00:16:44.30\00:16:45.90
I climbed up to the top of
the stairs where his bedroom was
00:16:46.10\00:16:49.37
and it was late at night.
00:16:49.77\00:16:52.54
And I remember just collapsing
00:16:52.74\00:16:56.14
outside of his door crying.
00:16:56.34\00:16:59.61
And he woke up and
came out of his bedroom
00:17:00.12\00:17:03.45
and he said: "Steve,
why are you crying? "
00:17:03.85\00:17:06.05
And I told him
and I just said: "Dad,
00:17:06.45\00:17:08.22
because I've learned that
if you don't believe in Jesus
00:17:08.42\00:17:10.96
you're going to
burn in hell forever. "
00:17:11.16\00:17:13.50
And he just looked at me
and didn't know what to say.
00:17:13.90\00:17:18.30
And I didn't know what to say.
00:17:19.33\00:17:21.07
And then just a few
days later he and his wife
00:17:21.70\00:17:24.57
decided to send
me to a psychologist.
00:17:24.77\00:17:28.38
So they sent me to a psycholo-
gist down on Ventura Blvd.
00:17:30.18\00:17:34.55
I still remember. I drove down;
went into this man's office.
00:17:34.75\00:17:37.75
Sat down and he said:
"What's the problem? "
00:17:37.95\00:17:39.75
And I told him
what I just told you
00:17:40.26\00:17:42.79
and he looked at me and he said:
00:17:42.99\00:17:44.96
"Oh, " he said, "I'm a Baptist.
My whole family is Baptist.
00:17:45.16\00:17:47.96
We all believe
that... that's the truth. "
00:17:48.16\00:17:50.00
So as you can imagine,
that didn't comfort me at all.
00:17:54.54\00:17:57.97
I was very
distraught about this subject
00:18:00.64\00:18:03.04
as a young 20-year-old.
00:18:04.35\00:18:05.85
Well I looked in the phone book;
began to look for a church.
00:18:06.05\00:18:09.88
I began to visit churches.
I went to a Methodist church;
00:18:10.09\00:18:13.76
I went to Calvary Chapel group.
00:18:13.96\00:18:16.42
Went to the synagogue
'cause I was grace Jewish.
00:18:17.39\00:18:19.69
Nobody was there... the
rabbi wasn't there so I left.
00:18:20.10\00:18:23.67
And one day I turned
on the television set
00:18:24.63\00:18:28.60
and I saw a man looking at
me with a friendly expression.
00:18:28.80\00:18:33.01
"Hello friend, welcome to
It Is Written television. "
00:18:33.21\00:18:36.28
That was Pastor George Vandeman.
00:18:36.68\00:18:38.85
And his topic was
the seventh-day Sabbath.
00:18:39.45\00:18:42.62
And he gave me a little
Bible study on the Sabbath.
00:18:43.02\00:18:46.15
And I was so interested
in what he had to say.
00:18:46.65\00:18:49.09
At the end of his talk
he held up a little book
00:18:49.29\00:18:51.09
called A Day To Remember.
He held it up and he said...
00:18:51.49\00:18:54.43
looked right at me.
"Friend, " he said, "call me up
00:18:54.63\00:18:56.97
and I'll send you a
free copy of this book. "
00:18:57.17\00:18:58.83
So the 800 number
was on the screen.
00:18:59.23\00:19:01.24
I felt this compulsion: "Go
to the phone; call this man. "
00:19:01.44\00:19:05.27
So I did.
00:19:05.67\00:19:07.44
The book came in the
mail. I read it in one sitting.
00:19:07.64\00:19:10.85
And at the end of the
book it had a little sentence
00:19:11.21\00:19:13.78
that said: "Come
visit a SDA church sometime
00:19:13.98\00:19:16.35
and say hello. "
00:19:16.55\00:19:17.89
And I thought to
myself: Seventh-day Adventist?
00:19:17.99\00:19:19.52
You know, I also had a
Jehovah's Witness friend.
00:19:19.72\00:19:21.66
I'd been checking
Jehovah's Witnesses out.
00:19:21.86\00:19:23.76
I checked out the Baptists,
the Methodists, the synagogue.
00:19:23.96\00:19:26.36
And I thought: "Well
maybe I'll check out the SDA's.
00:19:26.76\00:19:29.16
What are
Seventh-day Adventists? "
00:19:29.36\00:19:31.07
And then the thought
came to me, some hazy memory,
00:19:31.27\00:19:33.77
that about 3 months earlier I
had been in a health food store
00:19:33.97\00:19:36.54
with a buddy of mine. It
was funny. You know, we were...
00:19:36.94\00:19:40.34
we were pot smoking,
disco dancing, wild kids
00:19:40.54\00:19:43.24
and yet we got into health food.
00:19:43.65\00:19:45.28
We ate sprouts
because sprouts are natural
00:19:47.22\00:19:50.65
like marijuana.
00:19:51.15\00:19:52.62
So... And my buddy, as I
was buying the tofu burgers
00:19:54.22\00:19:58.73
and we were
walking out that day,
00:19:58.93\00:20:00.46
my friend said to me...
He struck up a conversation
00:20:00.86\00:20:03.97
with the guy that
worked at the market.
00:20:04.17\00:20:05.50
And as we walked out
my friend said to me,
00:20:05.63\00:20:07.40
he said: "You know that guy I
was talking to at the market? "
00:20:07.60\00:20:09.57
He said: "That guy is a
Seventh-day Adventist. "
00:20:09.77\00:20:11.87
He had told him that.
00:20:12.17\00:20:13.61
And somewhere it lodged
up there, and after I read
00:20:14.01\00:20:17.35
George Vandeman's
book the thought came:
00:20:17.55\00:20:19.11
"Oh, there's that man
at the health food store
00:20:19.31\00:20:21.12
that's a SDA. "
So I remembered that.
00:20:21.32\00:20:24.22
So I got in my car, drove
out to Northridge in the valley.
00:20:24.42\00:20:27.36
Walked into the store.
Looked around and sure enough
00:20:27.76\00:20:29.96
there the guy was. I recognized
him. Long blonde hair.
00:20:30.16\00:20:32.96
Naturalist guy. I
walked in and I grabbed...
00:20:33.36\00:20:38.07
opened up my hand and I said:
00:20:38.47\00:20:41.34
"Hi... my name's
Steve Wohlberg. "
00:20:41.74\00:20:43.57
I said: "Would you mind
if I went to church with you
00:20:43.97\00:20:45.31
some Saturday sometime? "
00:20:45.47\00:20:46.88
And he, you know, grabbed
my hand and shook my hand
00:20:48.28\00:20:50.55
and said: "Sure! "
00:20:50.75\00:20:52.65
He said: "My name's Richard. "
00:20:52.85\00:20:54.82
And we began to talk and in the
course of that conversation -
00:20:55.02\00:20:58.45
that's why I'm
telling you all of this -
00:20:58.65\00:20:59.99
in the course of that
conversation I asked him
00:21:00.02\00:21:02.99
I said: "Richard, what do
SDA's believe about hell? "
00:21:03.19\00:21:06.36
Because I was still bothered by
what Pastor Harper had told me
00:21:07.46\00:21:10.87
and what the
psychologist had told me.
00:21:11.07\00:21:14.04
I was bothered by that!
00:21:16.27\00:21:17.71
And so Richard
00:21:18.44\00:21:21.98
providentially took his
finger and drew a circle
00:21:22.94\00:21:26.25
just like the pastor did.
00:21:27.55\00:21:29.42
He drew a circle in the
air... an imaginary circle.
00:21:29.82\00:21:33.32
And he said: "Imagine
this is the universe. "
00:21:33.52\00:21:36.32
And he said: "The universe
used to be a clean happy place
00:21:36.52\00:21:39.66
that God, the angels...
you know, everybody was...
00:21:39.86\00:21:43.60
everything was peaceful
and happy and full of love. "
00:21:43.80\00:21:47.44
And then he said: "One
day a being - a holy being -
00:21:47.64\00:21:52.14
an angel named Lucifer went bad.
00:21:52.34\00:21:54.74
He became an evil
angel and he brought sin
00:21:54.94\00:21:58.21
into God's universe.
00:21:58.41\00:22:00.28
It was like a cancer
cell that Lucifer brought
00:22:00.48\00:22:05.05
into the universe. " And
he said: "When it's all over,
00:22:05.25\00:22:08.79
when sin has run its course
and this whole great controversy
00:22:08.99\00:22:11.96
is over, " he said,
"what God is going to do
00:22:12.16\00:22:14.36
is He's going to
erase that cancer cell
00:22:14.56\00:22:17.83
and then the universe
is once again going to be
00:22:18.77\00:22:22.37
clean and happy
and full of love. "
00:22:22.57\00:22:26.41
And when Richard said
that something clicked
00:22:27.58\00:22:31.88
inside of my head.
00:22:32.08\00:22:33.62
And something just said to me:
00:22:34.35\00:22:36.69
"That makes a lot of sense! "
00:22:36.89\00:22:40.12
Amen! And so I went to church
00:22:40.32\00:22:43.43
with Richard and
eventually was baptized
00:22:43.63\00:22:47.06
at the Canoga Park SDA church
00:22:47.26\00:22:49.03
and I became a
Seventh-day Adventist.
00:22:49.23\00:22:50.83
And I have been a
SDA for almost 40 years.
00:22:51.03\00:22:55.47
Amen! Through ups and
downs and ins and outs
00:22:55.67\00:22:59.04
praise God I'm still here!
00:22:59.24\00:23:01.51
And I don't plan
on going anywhere.
00:23:01.71\00:23:04.28
I'm going to stick with Jesus
- Amen - all the way to the end
00:23:05.35\00:23:08.78
no matter what happens.
00:23:08.98\00:23:10.52
Well, anyway...
00:23:11.12\00:23:12.75
now I'm a Seventh-day
Adventist and it is no secret
00:23:15.92\00:23:18.96
to those of you that have been
listening... listened to Shelley
00:23:19.89\00:23:23.06
if you've been
exposed to SDA teaching,
00:23:23.26\00:23:26.17
it is no secret that
we believe as a church
00:23:26.37\00:23:30.17
that some day God is
going to get rid of sin.
00:23:30.37\00:23:33.88
He's going to erase
it, and we as a people
00:23:34.51\00:23:37.51
do not believe that hell
00:23:37.71\00:23:41.98
will burn forever and ever
and ever and ever and ever.
00:23:42.18\00:23:45.82
We don't believe
that... we don't buy that.
00:23:46.02\00:23:48.59
Now to be fair
00:23:48.99\00:23:50.76
I want to say - which we
know - that there's a whole lot
00:23:50.96\00:23:55.76
of sincere, Bible-believing
Christians out there that
00:23:55.96\00:23:58.77
disagree with us.
00:23:58.97\00:24:00.80
They read verses like
Revelation 14 verse 11
00:24:01.00\00:24:05.87
that talks about smoke
going up forever and ever
00:24:06.27\00:24:10.65
and ever and ever
and they say to us:
00:24:10.85\00:24:13.05
"That's what the Bible says. "
00:24:13.45\00:24:15.75
That's what the Bible says.
00:24:16.62\00:24:18.32
And they feel very
strongly about this:
00:24:19.42\00:24:21.72
that they want to
stick with scripture
00:24:22.32\00:24:24.63
and they want to not
compromise with liberalism
00:24:24.93\00:24:28.66
and with false doctrine
so they still hold onto this.
00:24:28.86\00:24:31.67
And the battle is on
right now over this issue.
00:24:32.60\00:24:36.97
The controversy is
very, very intense.
00:24:37.17\00:24:39.07
In fact, not too
long ago I met a lady...
00:24:39.27\00:24:42.38
I was down in Hollywood
just a couple months ago
00:24:42.58\00:24:44.78
and I met a young lady.
She referred to her name as
00:24:44.98\00:24:47.88
Esther. She was
a street preacher.
00:24:48.08\00:24:49.78
And we had quite a
conversation about this subject.
00:24:50.59\00:24:53.12
We began to e-mail each
other and I've actually written
00:24:53.32\00:24:56.06
a little book, a little pocket
book, called The Hot Topic
00:24:56.26\00:24:58.79
Of Hell" that goes into this.
00:24:58.99\00:25:01.00
And I sent her
a copy of my book.
00:25:01.20\00:25:02.93
And she wrote me
back and she said: "Steve,
00:25:03.33\00:25:06.74
you need to get
rid of all those books.
00:25:06.94\00:25:09.50
Destroy them; burn them.
00:25:09.70\00:25:12.81
You are leading people
astray by your teaching. "
00:25:13.21\00:25:18.98
And she was very
strong about that.
00:25:19.38\00:25:22.15
So the question is
in light of this text
00:25:22.65\00:25:26.76
that we see in Revelation 14
00:25:26.96\00:25:29.42
where it says right there
in the third angel's message
00:25:29.82\00:25:33.60
in verse 11 that the smoke
00:25:33.80\00:25:37.57
of their torment will
ascend up forever and ever
00:25:38.87\00:25:43.81
the question is, you know:
"What do we do with this text? "
00:25:44.21\00:25:47.18
Are we right or are
we wrong in our view
00:25:48.04\00:25:52.58
about hell?
00:25:52.78\00:25:55.02
Well... let's explore this.
00:25:55.42\00:25:57.25
To be honest with you
this is not the only verse
00:25:58.25\00:26:01.12
in the Bible.
There are other verses
00:26:01.32\00:26:03.59
that seem to
teach eternal torment.
00:26:03.79\00:26:06.49
And we need to be
honest about that.
00:26:06.70\00:26:08.96
But on the other
side, there are other verses
00:26:09.16\00:26:12.93
and the truth is that
there are many many many many
00:26:13.13\00:26:18.14
many many many more verses
00:26:18.34\00:26:21.64
that teach the opposite.
00:26:21.84\00:26:24.15
If you were to line them
up... you know, all the verses
00:26:25.18\00:26:27.75
that hell
apparently goes on forever
00:26:27.95\00:26:31.52
and all the other
verses that don't teach that
00:26:31.72\00:26:34.52
the list is very long
00:26:34.72\00:26:38.46
against that idea.
00:26:39.89\00:26:41.36
VERY long. And the
list on the other side
00:26:41.56\00:26:43.80
is very short. Now
let me just show you
00:26:44.00\00:26:46.70
a couple of quick texts here.
00:26:46.90\00:26:48.37
If you have your Bibles,
turn to Psalm 68 verse 2.
00:26:48.57\00:26:54.51
This verse also
talks about smoke.
00:26:55.74\00:26:58.25
Another one of
those smoke texts.
00:26:59.25\00:27:01.45
I used to smoke marijuana
00:27:02.65\00:27:06.29
but the Lord changed
my life. Thank you, Jesus.
00:27:06.49\00:27:10.39
I don't do that anymore.
00:27:10.79\00:27:12.19
Psalm 68:2 says:
00:27:13.26\00:27:17.53
"As smoke is driven
away so drive them away;
00:27:17.73\00:27:22.57
as wax melts before
the fire so let the wicked
00:27:22.77\00:27:27.14
perish at the presence of God. "
00:27:27.34\00:27:29.31
Now there's a smoke text.
00:27:30.25\00:27:32.28
But that verse talks about
the wicked completely perishing
00:27:32.78\00:27:37.65
at the presence of God.
00:27:38.05\00:27:39.65
Psalm 37:10 says:
00:27:40.76\00:27:46.73
"Yet a little while and
the wicked shall not be.
00:27:46.93\00:27:50.07
Yea, You will
diligently consider his place
00:27:50.27\00:27:52.90
and it shall not be. "
00:27:53.10\00:27:55.17
It's gone. Verse
20: "The wicked shall
00:27:55.37\00:27:58.21
perish, and the enemies
of the Lord shall be as the
00:27:58.41\00:28:01.04
fat of lambs. They
shall consume; into smoke
00:28:01.24\00:28:04.25
shall they consume away. "
00:28:04.45\00:28:06.35
So there's another smoke text
00:28:06.75\00:28:08.55
saying that
they're going to be gone.
00:28:09.68\00:28:12.69
Verse 38 says: "But the trans-
gressors shall be destroyed.
00:28:13.66\00:28:18.66
The end of the
wicked shall be cut off. "
00:28:18.86\00:28:21.06
And in fact, at the end of
Ezekiel... or not the end...
00:28:21.26\00:28:24.07
but in Ezekiel chapter 28
00:28:24.27\00:28:27.40
this is a classic
passage about Lucifer, who
00:28:27.60\00:28:31.41
was perfect in all of
his ways until he sinned.
00:28:31.61\00:28:34.98
Ezekiel chapter 28 talks
about his pride in verse 15.
00:28:35.38\00:28:41.22
"Sin being found
in him... " Verse 14:
00:28:41.42\00:28:43.15
"He was the
anointed cherub who covers. "
00:28:43.35\00:28:45.52
And then in verse 18 it
says: "You have defiled your
00:28:45.72\00:28:49.22
sanctuaries by the
multitude of your iniquities,
00:28:49.42\00:28:51.46
by the iniquity of your traffic.
00:28:51.66\00:28:52.99
Therefore I will bring forth
a fire from the midst of you.
00:28:53.40\00:28:56.23
It will devour you, and
I will bring you to ashes
00:28:56.43\00:28:59.73
upon the earth in the sight
of all them that behold you.
00:28:59.93\00:29:02.27
All they that know you
among the people shall be
00:29:02.47\00:29:04.77
astonished at you.
You shall be a terror
00:29:04.97\00:29:06.81
and never shall
you be any more. "
00:29:07.01\00:29:09.38
So here's a
verse about the devil.
00:29:10.11\00:29:11.98
And it says the devil
is going to become ashes
00:29:12.38\00:29:15.02
in the fire and he's
not going to exist any more.
00:29:15.22\00:29:19.39
That sounds a lot like
Richard's circle, doesn't it?
00:29:20.06\00:29:23.32
Where God erases the
devil and sin and evil
00:29:24.03\00:29:28.43
and it's all gone.
00:29:28.83\00:29:30.17
That's what the
Bible says in Ezekiel.
00:29:30.37\00:29:33.64
So what do we do?
Back to Revelation 14:11.
00:29:33.84\00:29:39.81
What do we do
about this torment text?
00:29:40.01\00:29:42.94
Their being tormented day
and night forever and ever?
00:29:43.14\00:29:44.91
The book of Revelation actually
has verses on both sides
00:29:45.31\00:29:49.55
as well. If you
look at chapter 20,
00:29:49.75\00:29:53.09
Revelation 20, we have at
the end of the 1,000 years
00:29:54.86\00:29:59.29
the lost are resurrected.
Verse 5 talks about the rest
00:30:01.33\00:30:06.37
of the dead living not
until the 1,000 years are over.
00:30:06.57\00:30:09.07
Verse 7 talks about the devil
being loosed out of his prison
00:30:10.11\00:30:14.68
and going out to deceive people.
00:30:14.88\00:30:16.51
Verse 8 says
they're all gathered around
00:30:17.28\00:30:20.42
the New Jerusalem... 8 and 9...
00:30:22.08\00:30:24.29
"The number of whom is
as the sand of the sea. "
00:30:24.49\00:30:26.25
All these
billions of lost people.
00:30:26.45\00:30:29.72
And then at the end of
verse 9 it says: "Fire came down
00:30:30.13\00:30:33.73
from God out of heaven...
" And did what to them?
00:30:33.93\00:30:35.96
It devoured them.
00:30:36.16\00:30:37.73
So Revelation 20
verse 9 is a devoured text.
00:30:38.23\00:30:43.27
Now then verse 10 say:
"The devil that deceived them
00:30:43.67\00:30:46.41
was cast into the
lake of fire and brimstone
00:30:46.61\00:30:48.38
where the beast and
the false prophet are
00:30:48.58\00:30:50.35
and they shall be tormented day
and night forever and ever. "
00:30:50.55\00:30:53.05
There's another one of the
torment like the smoke text
00:30:53.55\00:30:56.72
where that goes on forever.
00:30:56.92\00:30:58.65
So we have verse 9
describes fire coming down
00:30:59.05\00:31:02.46
and they're devoured.
00:31:02.66\00:31:03.99
Verse 10 we have torment
going on day and night forever
00:31:04.33\00:31:08.60
and ever. So the
question is "Which one is it? "
00:31:08.80\00:31:11.07
Both verses are in the Bible.
00:31:11.97\00:31:14.24
Are they going to be devoured?
00:31:15.07\00:31:16.40
Or are sinners and
the devil and his angels
00:31:16.81\00:31:19.51
going to be alive
somewhere through all eternity?
00:31:19.71\00:31:23.31
You know, these are issues
that really people have to
00:31:23.71\00:31:25.95
wrestle with. It's an issue
that's right there in the Bible.
00:31:26.15\00:31:30.69
Well let me ask you:
between verse 9 and verse 10,
00:31:30.89\00:31:33.15
between the lost
being devoured and gone
00:31:33.36\00:31:37.36
and verse 10
torment forever and ever,
00:31:37.76\00:31:41.26
which of those two
ideas do you like better?
00:31:41.46\00:31:44.97
Do you like the idea
that God's going to erase sin?
00:31:47.60\00:31:50.87
Get rid of it and
it's going to be gone?
00:31:51.07\00:31:52.67
Or do you like the
idea of lost people burning
00:31:53.07\00:31:56.01
for all eternity?
No! Yeah, and I...
00:31:56.21\00:31:59.45
And I would hope that
everybody that's watching this,
00:31:59.65\00:32:02.02
anybody that's a
Baptist or in another church
00:32:02.22\00:32:06.45
than SDA who's
wrestling with these issues
00:32:06.65\00:32:09.26
and who's
listening to this talk,
00:32:09.46\00:32:10.99
I would hope that human
nature, that in your heart
00:32:11.19\00:32:15.23
if you had a choice
between the two options
00:32:15.43\00:32:18.80
that you would
rather have sin disappear
00:32:19.00\00:32:22.30
than have lost people tormented
throughout all eternity.
00:32:22.50\00:32:26.44
I would hope that we would
all want that to be the case.
00:32:26.64\00:32:29.64
But that said,
we should not base
00:32:29.84\00:32:34.52
our doctrines on what we want.
00:32:34.72\00:32:37.45
Isn't that right? Amen!
00:32:38.79\00:32:40.72
It's not based on preference.
00:32:40.92\00:32:42.66
It's not based on, you
know, "that sounds good"
00:32:43.06\00:32:45.63
versus "I don't like that. "
00:32:46.49\00:32:47.93
No! We don't base our
doctrines based on desire
00:32:48.53\00:32:51.93
and what we like better. We
base our doctrines on the Bible.
00:32:52.13\00:32:55.87
What does the Bible say?
00:32:56.27\00:32:57.67
What does the Word
of God actually say?
00:32:58.67\00:33:01.14
Now if the evidence
from the whole Bible
00:33:01.34\00:33:06.11
is that the lost go on
forever and ever and ever
00:33:06.51\00:33:10.09
brothers and sisters, we should,
if that was the evidence,
00:33:10.29\00:33:14.32
we should accept that
whether we like it or not.
00:33:14.52\00:33:17.76
And on the other hand
00:33:18.83\00:33:20.86
if the evidence from the whole
Bible doesn't support that,
00:33:21.06\00:33:24.73
then those who believe
that it goes on forever
00:33:26.50\00:33:29.57
when they really take a
close look at the whole Bible
00:33:29.77\00:33:31.97
they should be
willing to give that idea up.
00:33:32.17\00:33:34.48
You know, it goes both ways.
00:33:36.48\00:33:38.18
We need to find out what
does the Bible really say?
00:33:38.68\00:33:42.62
Now let's just dig
a little deeper here.
00:33:42.82\00:33:44.55
If you look at verse 9 when
it says: "They went up on the
00:33:44.75\00:33:48.66
breadth of the earth and
they encompassed the camp
00:33:48.86\00:33:51.16
of the saints about
and the Beloved City.
00:33:51.36\00:33:53.46
And fire came down
from God out of heaven
00:33:53.66\00:33:56.00
and devoured them. "
00:33:56.20\00:33:57.73
Let me ask you: do you
see anything symbolic...
00:33:57.93\00:34:00.40
any symbolic
language in verse 9?
00:34:00.80\00:34:03.30
I don't. It's just a
very simple narrative
00:34:04.67\00:34:07.51
of people
surrounding the New Jerusalem
00:34:07.71\00:34:12.08
and then them
being devoured in fire.
00:34:12.28\00:34:14.22
There's nothing
symbolic in verse 9.
00:34:14.38\00:34:16.32
What about verse 10?
00:34:16.72\00:34:18.05
"The devil that deceived them
was cast into the lake of fire
00:34:18.29\00:34:20.92
and brimstone where the
beast and the false prophet are.
00:34:21.12\00:34:24.39
And they shall be tormented day
and night forever and ever. "
00:34:24.59\00:34:26.80
See any symbolism in the
verse that talks about torment
00:34:27.30\00:34:31.60
forever? There IS symbolism.
00:34:31.80\00:34:35.34
The obvious symbolism is
the reference to the beast.
00:34:35.54\00:34:39.87
The Bible says the beast
has seven heads and ten horns
00:34:40.08\00:34:42.38
which is obviously symbolic.
00:34:42.98\00:34:45.11
So... a very important point
00:34:45.51\00:34:48.85
is that when the Bible talks
about, at least in this verse...
00:34:49.05\00:34:51.55
We have the devoured
text: nothing is symbolic;
00:34:51.95\00:34:54.72
we have the tormented
forever text: symbolism.
00:34:54.92\00:34:58.06
Go back to
Revelation 14:11, our main text,
00:34:58.46\00:35:01.96
about the smoke
going up forever and ever.
00:35:02.36\00:35:04.63
It says: "They have
no rest day or night
00:35:05.03\00:35:07.17
they... those who
worship the beast. "
00:35:07.37\00:35:10.34
So is there any
symbolism in that text?
00:35:10.74\00:35:14.41
Yes there is... same thing
00:35:15.01\00:35:16.98
about the beast who has
seven heads and ten horns.
00:35:17.18\00:35:20.52
So that's twice in Revelation
00:35:21.08\00:35:23.92
the verses that seem
to suggest eternal torment
00:35:24.12\00:35:27.22
have symbolism in them.
00:35:27.42\00:35:29.42
Now a third text is chapter 19.
00:35:29.62\00:35:33.46
Revelation 19:2-3
00:35:34.46\00:35:40.20
talks about the
destruction of the harlot.
00:35:40.60\00:35:44.74
Verse 2 says: "True and
righteous are His judgments. "
00:35:45.57\00:35:49.54
God's judgments are
true, they're righteous.
00:35:49.74\00:35:51.95
"He has judged the great
whore who did corrupt the earth
00:35:52.15\00:35:55.12
with her fornication
and He has avenged the blood
00:35:55.32\00:35:57.82
of His servants at her hand.
00:35:58.02\00:36:00.02
And again they said Hallelujah!
and her smoke rose up
00:36:00.22\00:36:05.36
forever and ever. "
00:36:05.56\00:36:07.06
There's another smoke text
00:36:07.26\00:36:09.10
about the smoke
going up forever.
00:36:09.30\00:36:11.43
But do you see any symbolism
there in verses 2 and 3?
00:36:11.63\00:36:14.60
Yes! It's the
symbolism of a whore
00:36:15.80\00:36:19.14
who is
described in Revelation 17
00:36:19.64\00:36:22.24
who rides a
seven-headed ten-horned beast.
00:36:22.44\00:36:25.21
And it says that it's her smoke
00:36:25.61\00:36:28.72
that goes up forever and ever.
00:36:29.02\00:36:30.89
Now that doesn't literally
mean that there's going to be
00:36:31.05\00:36:34.02
a literal woman with the
name BABYLON on her forehead
00:36:34.22\00:36:37.76
holding a golden cup
00:36:37.96\00:36:39.46
riding a
seven-headed ten-horned beast
00:36:39.66\00:36:41.60
who is going to be
in a certain location
00:36:41.80\00:36:44.07
literally burning whose literal
smoke is going up forever.
00:36:44.27\00:36:48.34
It doesn't mean that.
00:36:48.74\00:36:50.07
We're dealing with symbolism.
00:36:50.37\00:36:52.34
So my point is that the
three references in Revelation -
00:36:53.17\00:36:57.71
and I discovered
this in my Bible study -
00:36:57.91\00:36:59.91
the three
references that seem to suggest
00:37:00.12\00:37:02.92
smoke going up
forever, torment forever, etc.
00:37:03.32\00:37:06.79
those three references in
the last book of the Bible
00:37:06.99\00:37:10.43
every single one of those verses
00:37:10.83\00:37:13.23
is connected to clear
and obvious symbolism.
00:37:13.63\00:37:18.87
And that is important
for us to keep in mind.
00:37:20.37\00:37:25.24
Now, back to Revelation 14:11
00:37:25.64\00:37:29.08
about the smoke of their torment
ascending up forever and ever.
00:37:30.38\00:37:35.38
Here's a very important point.
00:37:37.05\00:37:38.89
And we don't want to rationalize
away the Word of God.
00:37:39.39\00:37:42.02
When we talk about hell
and death and the Sabbath,
00:37:42.22\00:37:45.29
and all these different issues,
the three angels, the beast,
00:37:45.49\00:37:48.10
SDAs must not rationalize
away the Word of God.
00:37:48.30\00:37:53.57
We must be
faithful to scripture.
00:37:54.47\00:37:57.01
And that applies to Christians
in other churches as well.
00:37:57.21\00:38:00.24
God's call upon all of us
is to be faithful to scripture.
00:38:00.44\00:38:04.28
We need to study
the Bible carefully...
00:38:04.68\00:38:06.55
not just one text
here one text there
00:38:06.75\00:38:08.82
but look at the whole Bible.
00:38:09.02\00:38:10.39
Look at the
evidence of the whole Bible.
00:38:10.59\00:38:12.52
Look at the character of
God as Shelley so powerfully
00:38:12.72\00:38:16.39
described a little while
ago, look at the whole character
00:38:16.59\00:38:19.46
of God: God's love,
His justice, His mercy.
00:38:19.66\00:38:22.56
Wrath, judgment, everything
ultimately needs to be seen
00:38:22.76\00:38:26.84
through the lens
of the cross. Amen!
00:38:27.04\00:38:29.97
That Jesus revealed the heart
of God, the character of God,
00:38:30.37\00:38:33.91
and He gave His life for us.
00:38:34.48\00:38:36.04
Now, back to our controversy
here about this text.
00:38:36.24\00:38:41.38
When you read the book
of Revelation carefully...
00:38:43.02\00:38:45.55
really study it,
not... when we're not like
00:38:45.95\00:38:50.39
water skiers but
we're like deep sea divers,
00:38:50.79\00:38:54.60
you know, going down deep
00:38:54.80\00:38:56.50
and really
studying the Word of God
00:38:56.90\00:38:58.70
you discover that in
the book of Revelation
00:38:58.90\00:39:00.37
it's really a masterpiece.
Revelation is an incredible
00:39:00.57\00:39:03.17
masterpiece of prophecy
and literature and power
00:39:03.37\00:39:07.18
and truth and a
whole bunch of things
00:39:07.38\00:39:10.15
centered in the Lamb
00:39:10.55\00:39:12.75
that just about
everything in Revelation
00:39:13.15\00:39:16.42
has a root that takes you back
to the Old Testament somewhere.
00:39:16.62\00:39:20.76
When Revelation
talks about the Lamb
00:39:22.59\00:39:24.69
that takes us back to all the
lambs sacrificed in the Bible
00:39:24.89\00:39:28.63
pointing to Jesus.
00:39:29.03\00:39:30.37
When Revelation
talks about the beast
00:39:30.43\00:39:32.77
it takes you back to Daniel
7 that describes four beasts
00:39:33.17\00:39:36.64
and a lot of links.
00:39:37.04\00:39:38.97
When Revelation 22
talks about the Tree of Life
00:39:39.17\00:39:41.94
at the very end the
Tree of Life is restored
00:39:42.94\00:39:46.82
in the new
heavens and the new earth
00:39:47.02\00:39:48.58
that takes you back to Genesis
00:39:49.28\00:39:51.52
chapters 1 and 2
where the Tree of Life
00:39:52.32\00:39:55.62
was in the Garden of
Eden in the beginning.
00:39:55.82\00:39:57.69
So almost everything in Reve-
lation takes you back somewhere.
00:39:58.09\00:40:01.96
And the verse
in Revelation 14:11
00:40:02.36\00:40:05.03
"And the smoke of their torment
ascends up forever and ever"
00:40:05.23\00:40:08.60
that text has a root.
00:40:08.80\00:40:12.07
It takes you back to another
verse which is in Isaiah ch. 34.
00:40:12.77\00:40:18.48
So if you have your
Bible follow with me
00:40:18.68\00:40:21.75
to Isaiah 34 and
let's see what we can learn
00:40:22.25\00:40:27.32
about that text
from the root text.
00:40:27.52\00:40:32.39
34 verse 6.
00:40:34.20\00:40:36.46
Isaiah chapter 34 verse 6
says: "The sword of the Lord
00:40:40.34\00:40:45.47
is filled with blood.
00:40:45.67\00:40:47.34
It is made fat with fatness
00:40:47.54\00:40:51.98
and with the blood
of lambs and goats,
00:40:52.18\00:40:54.32
with the fat of
the kidneys of rams.
00:40:54.48\00:40:56.69
For the Lord has a
sacrifice in Bozrah
00:40:56.89\00:41:00.02
and a great slaughter
in the land of Idumaea. "
00:41:00.42\00:41:04.66
Now I want to build a point here
00:41:05.06\00:41:07.96
that this is taking us
back to a certain territory
00:41:08.16\00:41:11.47
called the Land of Idumaea.
And if I remembered this right
00:41:11.67\00:41:15.64
it was a territory
south of Jerusalem.
00:41:15.84\00:41:18.47
It's an area... or
it was a real area.
00:41:18.67\00:41:24.35
And then going on verse 7 says:
00:41:24.55\00:41:26.78
"The unicorn shall
come down with them
00:41:26.98\00:41:29.25
and the bullocks with the bulls
00:41:29.45\00:41:33.12
and their land
shall be soaked with blood
00:41:33.32\00:41:36.62
and their dust
made fat with fatness.
00:41:36.83\00:41:38.99
For it is the day
of the Lord's vengeance
00:41:39.19\00:41:41.73
and the year of recompenses
for the controversy of Zion.
00:41:41.93\00:41:44.87
And the streams thereof...
" which is the streams
00:41:45.27\00:41:48.97
in the land of Idumaea...
00:41:49.17\00:41:51.11
"the streams thereof
shall be turned into pitch
00:41:51.51\00:41:55.34
and the dust
thereof into brimstone. "
00:41:55.54\00:41:58.11
So here we have fire
and brimstone language.
00:41:58.61\00:42:03.39
And then it says:
"And the land thereof
00:42:04.55\00:42:07.26
shall become burning pitch. "
00:42:07.46\00:42:09.02
So here's this territory
eventually coming on fire.
00:42:09.22\00:42:13.29
And then verse 10 says:
00:42:13.96\00:42:16.53
"It shall not be
quenched night nor day.
00:42:16.73\00:42:20.77
The smoke thereof
shall go up forever. "
00:42:21.17\00:42:24.47
So here's the smoke text
00:42:25.31\00:42:27.74
where it goes up
forever and this is the verse
00:42:28.61\00:42:31.78
That Revelation 14:11
picks up on and builds on.
00:42:31.98\00:42:37.82
Now again, it's talking about
a literal territory, right?
00:42:40.66\00:42:46.03
The land of Idumaea.
00:42:46.23\00:42:48.16
Now then notice
the rest of the verse
00:42:49.26\00:42:52.33
qualifies what it means,
00:42:52.53\00:42:56.17
what the forever and
ever and ever part means.
00:42:56.37\00:43:00.38
It says: "The smoke
thereof shall go up forever.
00:43:01.31\00:43:05.68
From generation to
generation it shall lie waste.
00:43:05.88\00:43:10.52
None shall pass
through it forever and ever. "
00:43:10.92\00:43:14.19
So in this text
"forever and ever"
00:43:14.59\00:43:17.76
is qualified by "from
generation to generation"
00:43:17.96\00:43:23.60
and it's talking
about a certain territory.
00:43:24.70\00:43:27.74
Now let me ask you: is
that territory burning now?
00:43:27.94\00:43:31.47
No. No.
00:43:31.87\00:43:33.44
Is Sodom and
Gomorrah burning now?
00:43:34.11\00:43:36.61
No. No. The Bible says
Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed
00:43:36.81\00:43:39.45
by eternal fire.
00:43:39.65\00:43:41.12
But it also says in
I believe it's II Peter
00:43:42.45\00:43:46.12
it says it became
ashes in a moment.
00:43:46.32\00:43:50.99
Actually there's a
verse in Lamentations.
00:43:51.66\00:43:54.10
Lamentations says God
destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah
00:43:54.30\00:43:56.87
in a moment. I think
it's chapter 4 verse 6.
00:43:57.07\00:43:58.93
II Peter 2:6 talks about
00:43:59.13\00:44:01.44
Sodom and
Gomorrah becoming ashes.
00:44:01.64\00:44:03.64
So Sodom and Gomorrah
became ashes in a moment.
00:44:03.84\00:44:06.14
Jude verse 7 says
this happened as a result
00:44:06.54\00:44:09.78
of eternal fire. So when
you put the pieces together
00:44:09.98\00:44:13.31
the eternal fire turned
Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes
00:44:13.52\00:44:17.29
in a moment. And
the land of Idumaea
00:44:17.49\00:44:21.96
that will have smoke
going up forever and ever
00:44:22.16\00:44:25.49
is qualified to mean
from generation to generation
00:44:26.23\00:44:29.00
the land is going to lie waste,
00:44:30.83\00:44:32.67
but that land is
not burning today.
00:44:33.07\00:44:35.40
And in the new
heavens and the new earth
00:44:36.40\00:44:38.74
when God remakes the
earth and the heavens
00:44:38.94\00:44:41.64
which we'll talk
about - that's my last topic
00:44:41.84\00:44:43.88
which is Saturday night
which is a happier topic
00:44:44.08\00:44:47.78
than the torment topic -
00:44:47.98\00:44:49.32
I'll talk about the new
heavens and the new earth
00:44:49.72\00:44:52.05
it's very clear that when
God remakes the new heavens
00:44:53.05\00:44:55.82
and the new earth there is
not going to be a place anywhere
00:44:56.02\00:44:58.69
where smoke is
going up forever and ever.
00:44:59.19\00:45:03.80
Amen! It's just
not going to happen.
00:45:04.00\00:45:05.87
It's not what the
Bible... what the Bible says.
00:45:06.07\00:45:08.67
In fact, let's go
back to Revelation
00:45:09.70\00:45:12.91
and look at
chapter 20 and 21 quickly.
00:45:13.11\00:45:19.11
And again, we need to
look at the whole Bible
00:45:22.68\00:45:24.89
and we need to look at
the whole character of God
00:45:25.29\00:45:27.56
which ultimately was
revealed by Jesus Christ
00:45:28.72\00:45:32.89
when He gave
His life on a cross.
00:45:33.09\00:45:35.46
And Jesus said that
God "so loved the world
00:45:35.66\00:45:38.23
that He gave His
only begotten Son
00:45:38.43\00:45:40.04
that whoever would believe
in Him should not... " What?
00:45:40.24\00:45:42.70
Perish! "should not perish
00:45:42.90\00:45:44.57
but have everlasting life. "
00:45:44.77\00:45:46.11
See any symbolism in that verse?
00:45:46.14\00:45:47.48
It's just a straightforward text
where those who believe in Jesus
00:45:47.81\00:45:51.88
will have eternal
life and those who don't
00:45:52.08\00:45:54.22
it says they will perish.
00:45:54.42\00:45:56.42
They will
perish. Romans 6:23 says
00:45:56.62\00:46:00.09
"The wages of sin is death
00:46:00.29\00:46:02.56
but the gift of
God is eternal life. "
00:46:03.63\00:46:05.59
If Jesus paid the
full price for our sin
00:46:05.99\00:46:09.26
which all true
Bible Christians believe
00:46:09.46\00:46:13.34
that Jesus paid the full
price on the cross for our sins
00:46:13.54\00:46:17.77
as the Lamb,
00:46:17.97\00:46:19.31
if the wages of
sin is eternal torment
00:46:19.47\00:46:22.58
then in order for Jesus to
pay... to legitimately and fully
00:46:23.08\00:46:28.02
to have fully
paid the price for sin,
00:46:28.22\00:46:30.92
then He must burn forever
00:46:32.29\00:46:35.42
if that's the true wages of sin.
00:46:35.92\00:46:38.46
Or if it was the wage of
sin and He didn't do that
00:46:38.86\00:46:42.56
then He didn't
really pay the price.
00:46:42.76\00:46:44.77
But He did pay the price.
Amen! He paid the FULL price
00:46:46.23\00:46:50.11
on the cross. And
what happened to Him:
00:46:50.51\00:46:53.48
He died... He died.
00:46:53.88\00:46:57.68
And do we believe
He was really dead?
00:46:58.08\00:46:59.85
Yes! I do.
00:47:00.05\00:47:01.88
That's what the Bible
says: "Christ DIED for our sins
00:47:02.68\00:47:05.79
and He rose
from the dead. " Yes!
00:47:06.19\00:47:08.42
Those who reject Him and those
who get the mark of the beast,
00:47:09.92\00:47:12.49
those who rebel against
God and refuse to submit to the
00:47:13.19\00:47:16.70
authority of His Word
to God as our Creator -
00:47:16.90\00:47:19.73
God as our loving
Creator - if they refuse that
00:47:20.14\00:47:24.27
persistently and
continually and if they die
00:47:24.47\00:47:30.25
then they will come up
in the second resurrection
00:47:30.45\00:47:33.45
which is described in
Revelation chapter 20 verse 5.
00:47:33.65\00:47:36.79
"The rest of the dead lived
not again until the 1,000 years
00:47:36.99\00:47:39.49
were finished. " So
the rest of the dead
00:47:39.69\00:47:42.19
who don't come up in the first
resurrection when Jesus comes
00:47:42.39\00:47:44.69
they come up in the
second resurrection.
00:47:45.09\00:47:46.93
Verse 8 says: "Their number
is as the sand of the sea. "
00:47:48.30\00:47:53.07
There's going to be billions of
lost people at the end of time
00:47:53.87\00:47:57.07
who are resurrected at
the end of the thousand years.
00:47:57.27\00:47:59.37
Verse 9: "They
surround the New Jerusalem"
00:48:00.18\00:48:03.08
and then it says:
"fire comes down from God
00:48:03.28\00:48:05.25
out of heaven
and devours them. "
00:48:05.45\00:48:07.38
Verses 11 to 15
describe a judgment
00:48:08.18\00:48:11.85
that happens prior
to their destruction.
00:48:12.05\00:48:14.89
And in that great
white throne judgment
00:48:15.29\00:48:17.89
all the lost are gathered
around the great white throne
00:48:18.09\00:48:20.70
and they see the
reason why they're lost.
00:48:20.90\00:48:23.13
They see where
they've rebelled against God;
00:48:23.63\00:48:26.97
where they've rejected
God, His character, and His love
00:48:27.17\00:48:30.57
and His Son and
His cross and His truth
00:48:30.77\00:48:34.28
that is revealed
in the whole Bible.
00:48:34.48\00:48:36.68
They see this. It's going
to be a fearful, solemn day
00:48:37.08\00:48:41.32
for the lost.
00:48:41.52\00:48:42.85
And then in verse 15 it says:
"Whoever was not found written
00:48:43.25\00:48:46.69
in the Book of Life...
" What happens to them?
00:48:46.89\00:48:48.62
It says they're "cast
into the lake of fire. "
00:48:49.02\00:48:51.66
There's the fire
just like in verse 9.
00:48:52.66\00:48:55.66
The fire comes and devours them.
00:48:55.86\00:48:57.20
And where are they according
to verse 8 and verse 9?
00:48:57.33\00:49:01.74
They're on the earth, right?
They're marching on the earth
00:49:01.94\00:49:06.44
and they're
surrounding the New Jerusalem.
00:49:06.64\00:49:09.41
And fire comes
down and devours them
00:49:09.81\00:49:12.85
while they're on the earth.
00:49:13.05\00:49:14.98
And it becomes a lake of
fire while they're on the earth.
00:49:17.62\00:49:22.62
And then the very next
verse, chapter 21 verse 1
00:49:24.89\00:49:30.20
says: "I saw a new heaven
00:49:31.23\00:49:34.54
and a new earth
00:49:34.74\00:49:37.51
for the first
heaven and the first earth
00:49:37.71\00:49:40.41
had passed away. "
00:49:40.61\00:49:42.71
Now where was the lake of fire?
00:49:43.11\00:49:45.11
On the earth.
Where were the people?
00:49:45.31\00:49:47.58
On the earth. On the earth:
that's what the Bible says.
00:49:47.78\00:49:50.29
Revelation 20:8-9
says they're on the earth.
00:49:50.69\00:49:53.82
The fire comes down
upon them on the earth.
00:49:54.36\00:49:56.79
It becomes a lake
of fire on the earth.
00:49:57.19\00:50:00.16
The whole planet with
all of its sin and evil
00:50:00.56\00:50:05.60
and darkness and
deception and wickedness
00:50:05.80\00:50:08.27
and terrorism and pornography
00:50:08.67\00:50:11.61
and child abuse and pain
and suffering and sorrow:
00:50:11.81\00:50:16.38
all of this: it's all just going
to end up in one big massive
00:50:16.88\00:50:22.48
lake of fire. And why
is God going to do that?
00:50:22.68\00:50:25.75
Because His heart
is a heart of love
00:50:26.15\00:50:29.36
and He wants to erase the dot
00:50:29.56\00:50:32.89
of evil in His universe
00:50:33.29\00:50:35.73
and get rid of it.
00:50:36.77\00:50:38.70
And verse 1 says
that "the first heaven
00:50:39.20\00:50:42.67
and the first
earth had passed away. "
00:50:42.87\00:50:45.14
And where was the lake of fire?
00:50:45.64\00:50:47.78
It was on the earth.
00:50:48.28\00:50:49.61
And so when you have a
new heaven and a new earth
00:50:49.71\00:50:52.58
and the first heaven and
the first earth have passed away
00:50:52.78\00:50:55.48
that tells us that the lake
of fire is going to pass away
00:50:56.45\00:51:00.56
as well. Verse 4 says: "And God
00:51:01.06\00:51:07.03
shall wipe away all
tears from their eyes
00:51:07.23\00:51:11.97
and there shall be no more death
00:51:12.37\00:51:15.37
neither sorrow nor crying.
00:51:16.07\00:51:18.31
Neither shall
there be any more pain
00:51:18.51\00:51:20.91
for the former
things are passed away. "
00:51:21.11\00:51:23.24
That's what I'm going to
talk about in the last meeting.
00:51:23.65\00:51:26.08
I have the privilege
of having the last talk
00:51:26.48\00:51:29.68
and it's going to
be on this subject:
00:51:30.09\00:51:32.32
on the new
heavens and the new earth.
00:51:32.72\00:51:34.99
And so it says that there's
not going to be any more death.
00:51:35.19\00:51:38.16
Not going to be any more sorrow;
not going to be any more pain.
00:51:39.13\00:51:42.06
And if hell burned forever,
00:51:42.46\00:51:44.77
if the smoke
literally went up forever
00:51:46.43\00:51:49.80
with no symbolism which
is not what the Bible says
00:51:50.01\00:51:52.87
then that would mean that
somewhere in God's universe
00:51:53.07\00:51:57.08
there's always going to be
pain and suffering and sorrow
00:51:57.58\00:52:01.22
and torment and torture
00:52:01.42\00:52:03.18
forever and ever and ever.
00:52:03.39\00:52:05.55
That's what that would mean.
00:52:05.95\00:52:07.96
But that's not true. Amen!
That's not what the text says.
00:52:08.16\00:52:11.46
The text says that sorrow,
pain, suffering, and death
00:52:11.86\00:52:15.16
is all going to be gone.
There won't be any more pain!
00:52:15.36\00:52:20.44
"for the former
things have passed away. "
00:52:20.94\00:52:23.41
"And He that sat
upon the throne said:
00:52:23.71\00:52:25.77
'Behold, I make
all things new! ' "
00:52:25.97\00:52:28.68
Hallelujah!
00:52:29.08\00:52:30.58
"And he said to me: 'Write,
00:52:31.08\00:52:34.55
for these words... '
These words are what?
00:52:34.75\00:52:39.12
True and faithful. 'These
words are true and faithful. ' "
00:52:39.32\00:52:44.13
So the Word that says
that the lake of fire and sin
00:52:45.23\00:52:50.77
and suffering and pain and
sorrow is all going to be gone!
00:52:50.97\00:52:55.10
These words are true;
these words are faithful.
00:52:56.14\00:53:02.14
Seventh-day Adventists
are not heretics. Amen!
00:53:04.61\00:53:08.35
We're not liberals who
rationalize away the Bible.
00:53:09.08\00:53:13.05
We believe in the Word of God.
00:53:14.46\00:53:17.83
Amen! And we believe in
studying the whole Bible.
00:53:18.03\00:53:20.96
Amen! And we believe
that God's character is
00:53:21.16\00:53:24.77
a character of love
that was revealed on a cross
00:53:24.97\00:53:28.67
where Jesus died for
our sins and rose again.
00:53:29.07\00:53:33.58
A number of years ago
I was having a seminar
00:53:34.08\00:53:36.24
in New Jersey, and a man
named Cory was coming to my
00:53:36.44\00:53:39.11
meetings. He was a Jewish man
00:53:39.31\00:53:40.92
but he was coming
to a Christian series
00:53:41.28\00:53:43.15
of Bible prophecy meetings.
00:53:43.35\00:53:44.92
And one night I
covered this topic.
00:53:45.42\00:53:48.82
It was called "The
Hot Topic of Hell. "
00:53:49.02\00:53:50.83
And Cory was there.
00:53:51.23\00:53:52.89
And when that talk was
over as I went through these
00:53:53.40\00:53:55.90
different verses and talked
about the character of God
00:53:56.10\00:53:58.20
and hell and the fire and
it all going away forever,
00:53:58.40\00:54:01.84
God's universe
being filled with love
00:54:02.04\00:54:04.11
Cory, when that meeting
was over, came up to me.
00:54:04.31\00:54:07.48
Grabbed my hand
and he said: "Steve,
00:54:07.68\00:54:11.55
Steve, now I can believe! "
00:54:11.95\00:54:15.48
"Now I can believe! "
00:54:15.88\00:54:18.75
Well the next
night I preached again
00:54:20.22\00:54:24.39
and he came back.
00:54:24.59\00:54:25.93
And at the end of that
meeting he walked up to me
00:54:25.96\00:54:27.86
and his face was glowing.
00:54:28.06\00:54:29.53
He was just glowing!
00:54:29.93\00:54:31.43
And he grabbed my hand
again and he said: "Steve! "
00:54:31.63\00:54:34.37
He said: "Last night after
your talk I got on my knees
00:54:34.77\00:54:40.41
in my room and I accepted
Jesus Christ as my Savior. "
00:54:40.61\00:54:44.71
And he said: "Praise
God I'm born again! "
00:54:46.11\00:54:49.92
Cory was baptized at
the end of that seminar
00:54:52.29\00:54:54.89
and his Jewish mother was there.
00:54:55.39\00:54:57.36
And she said to
me... Afterward she said:
00:54:57.56\00:55:01.50
"I don't know
what's happened to my son
00:55:01.70\00:55:03.67
but it's good! It's good! "
00:55:04.17\00:55:08.14
Praise God! Amen.
00:55:10.14\00:55:12.34
Cory's life was changed
through not just one text
00:55:12.74\00:55:16.14
about torment going up
forever and ever and smoke
00:55:16.34\00:55:19.91
going up forever and ever
but looking at the whole Bible.
00:55:20.12\00:55:23.28
Discovering that every time
those texts are in Revelation
00:55:23.69\00:55:27.16
they're always symbolic
00:55:27.36\00:55:29.26
or there's symbolism
connected with the verses.
00:55:29.46\00:55:31.66
And when you look
at the whole Bible
00:55:31.86\00:55:33.40
God's character is a
character of love AND justice.
00:55:33.60\00:55:38.67
The torment? We
don't want to minimize it.
00:55:39.07\00:55:42.40
It's going to be real.
00:55:43.10\00:55:44.67
Those that reject God
and His love and His truth
00:55:44.87\00:55:47.51
and His Word and His law
and Him being the Creator
00:55:47.71\00:55:51.91
in the final message -
the third angel's message -
00:55:52.11\00:55:54.35
the three angels'
messages, if they reject this
00:55:54.55\00:55:57.12
and persistently say:
"No, no, no. I'm not going to
00:55:57.32\00:56:00.39
follow Jesus; I'm not
going to follow the Bible.
00:56:00.59\00:56:02.62
I'm not going to follow
the three angels' messages;
00:56:02.82\00:56:04.89
I'm going to get
the mark of the beast...
00:56:05.09\00:56:06.43
go along with the
beast and get the mark. "
00:56:06.53\00:56:08.16
They will suffer
for those choices.
00:56:10.37\00:56:14.17
There will be
torment and it will be real.
00:56:14.37\00:56:17.17
And probably the greatest
torment is the realization
00:56:17.67\00:56:20.44
of what they've lost. Yes!
00:56:20.64\00:56:22.34
That they've
lost out on eternity
00:56:22.54\00:56:24.58
with God and with
Jesus and with all the angels
00:56:24.78\00:56:28.15
and with all the saints
and with all the Bible people.
00:56:28.35\00:56:31.95
And they've lost out
on eternity with Christ.
00:56:32.92\00:56:36.02
That's going to be the
worst torment of them all...
00:56:36.83\00:56:40.33
of all of it.
00:56:41.16\00:56:42.66
But we don't have
to go through that,
00:56:42.86\00:56:44.57
praise the
Lord! We have a chance
00:56:44.77\00:56:48.44
to follow our Bibles
and to follow our Savior.
00:56:48.74\00:56:52.71
And when all the sin and
the torment and the suffering
00:56:54.74\00:56:58.18
is over it will be OVER! Amen!
00:56:58.38\00:57:02.92
And there'll be a new
heaven and a new earth
00:57:04.09\00:57:06.45
and righteousness will be there.
00:57:06.65\00:57:08.62
And we all have a
chance to be there.
00:57:09.02\00:57:11.96
The universe used to be happy.
00:57:13.26\00:57:15.46
Sin entered when
Lucifer rebelled.
00:57:15.86\00:57:19.13
And God is going
to erase that dot
00:57:19.33\00:57:21.44
and get rid of sin. And
His universe will be full
00:57:21.64\00:57:24.67
of love. Amen! And
the great news is that we
00:57:24.87\00:57:28.84
can all be there.
00:57:29.04\00:57:31.11