The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
00:00:01.36\00:00:03.53
Parents are
cautioned that some material
00:00:03.57\00:00:05.37
may be too candid
for younger children.
00:00:05.40\00:00:07.44
Welcome to Pure Choices.
00:00:40.70\00:00:42.10
My name is Brittany Hill-Morales
00:00:42.14\00:00:43.57
and I'm the host
for today's program.
00:00:43.61\00:00:45.44
We have a really
great topic today.
00:00:45.47\00:00:48.04
We're talking
about church leaders
00:00:48.08\00:00:49.98
in pornography, sexual sins.
00:00:50.01\00:00:52.38
But before we jump
into this conversation,
00:00:52.41\00:00:54.42
let's pray.
00:00:54.45\00:00:56.25
Dear kind and
most heavenly Father,
00:00:56.28\00:00:57.62
dear Lord, we pray that
00:00:57.65\00:00:58.99
as we're about to
have this discussion
00:00:59.02\00:01:00.36
that You will be with us here
00:01:00.39\00:01:01.72
and also be with
the viewers at home.
00:01:01.76\00:01:03.32
We love You so much,
in Jesus' name, amen.
00:01:03.36\00:01:06.33
Amen. Amen.
00:01:06.36\00:01:08.73
As we're about to begin
00:01:08.76\00:01:10.10
I had two wonderful
ladies over here on the couch.
00:01:10.13\00:01:12.87
We have Sabine Vatel
and also Dajanae Anderson.
00:01:12.90\00:01:16.67
Thank you guys so
much for being here
00:01:16.71\00:01:18.17
and being willing to talk
about this important topic,
00:01:18.21\00:01:21.64
church
leadership and pornography.
00:01:21.68\00:01:26.08
A while ago
there was a situation
00:01:26.11\00:01:27.92
where a website where couples,
00:01:27.95\00:01:30.35
married couples
were engaging each other,
00:01:30.39\00:01:33.52
trying to do things
that were not right,
00:01:33.56\00:01:36.76
sexual sins.
00:01:36.79\00:01:38.99
And as the list came out
00:01:39.03\00:01:42.46
with the
different names of people,
00:01:42.50\00:01:44.97
it came to the light
that some of these couples,
00:01:45.00\00:01:48.50
these married
couples were church leaders.
00:01:48.54\00:01:51.44
And before there was
an outrage by this website
00:01:51.47\00:01:54.88
but it was at different level
00:01:54.91\00:01:56.24
because they're church leaders.
00:01:56.28\00:01:59.38
And it seems like church leaders
00:01:59.41\00:02:00.92
have a different
sort of responsibility,
00:02:00.95\00:02:02.68
different sort of a burden
when it comes to sexual sins.
00:02:02.72\00:02:07.22
Well, how do
you feel about that?
00:02:07.26\00:02:10.49
I think that it
makes sense to me.
00:02:10.53\00:02:13.90
I understand why
people feel that way
00:02:13.93\00:02:17.93
and it's not all the way wrong.
00:02:17.97\00:02:21.64
But I also believe that
most people who feel like
00:02:21.67\00:02:26.07
church leaders should
not have sexual temptation
00:02:26.11\00:02:31.81
or even may possibly even fall
into that sexual temptation,
00:02:31.85\00:02:36.69
I don't believe
that's realistic.
00:02:36.72\00:02:38.99
I don't believe that
that is even biblical.
00:02:39.02\00:02:41.99
In terms of the
history of salvation,
00:02:42.02\00:02:45.39
there is evidence
that church leaders,
00:02:45.43\00:02:47.83
God's people
sometimes falls into sin
00:02:47.86\00:02:52.13
but the reaction, the
thing that still labels a person
00:02:52.17\00:02:56.04
as a child of God
00:02:56.07\00:02:57.64
and as a vessel to
consistently be used by God
00:02:57.67\00:03:00.98
is the ability
to be rebuked by God
00:03:01.01\00:03:04.18
and to receive that
rebuke in repentance.
00:03:04.21\00:03:07.95
And so there's a...
00:03:07.98\00:03:09.72
But I believe that there's
a, there's a false expectation.
00:03:09.75\00:03:13.89
There's a false expectation
that is given on to leaders
00:03:13.92\00:03:17.93
that, yes, we should
pray for our leaders,
00:03:17.96\00:03:19.49
we want them to
make, they are examples
00:03:19.53\00:03:22.23
but when they fall, do we...
00:03:22.26\00:03:24.67
Are we as loving to them as
maybe they were loving to us
00:03:24.70\00:03:29.60
or people in our congregations,
00:03:29.64\00:03:32.14
the people that we sit next to
00:03:32.17\00:03:35.48
during church
time, during counseling?
00:03:35.51\00:03:39.21
Are we just as
merciful to our church leaders
00:03:39.25\00:03:42.18
as we may be to our children
00:03:42.22\00:03:44.19
or even to maybe our parents
00:03:44.22\00:03:46.86
and when we find out that
they may have done something
00:03:46.89\00:03:50.19
that was in upscale
within Christian morality?
00:03:50.23\00:03:55.50
Yeah, well, you know, I've...
00:03:55.53\00:03:57.33
I think the reaction in
terms of, I being a Christian,
00:03:57.37\00:04:01.80
people put down
the leaders as much,
00:04:01.84\00:04:04.17
may be there were some
that we're very disappointed
00:04:04.21\00:04:06.68
but what struck me
was there was a sense of,
00:04:06.71\00:04:08.74
maybe mocking or gotcha,
00:04:08.78\00:04:10.98
you know, you
thought you were so good
00:04:11.01\00:04:12.55
and you're not exactly
who you portray to be."
00:04:12.58\00:04:15.08
So there was a sense
of there we go again,
00:04:15.12\00:04:17.12
of course,
they're going to do that,
00:04:17.15\00:04:18.49
you know, people who don't...
00:04:18.52\00:04:19.85
obviously who are Christian,
00:04:19.89\00:04:21.22
who don't expect
much from Christianity
00:04:21.26\00:04:22.59
or Christian leaders,
00:04:22.62\00:04:23.96
I think they got
more of a mocking.
00:04:23.99\00:04:26.86
The expectations are not
high for Christian leaders
00:04:26.90\00:04:29.43
in secular
circles in my experience.
00:04:29.46\00:04:32.43
One thing that someone told
me was pastors are humans too,
00:04:32.47\00:04:37.54
church leaders are humans too...
00:04:37.57\00:04:39.64
That's a question or...
00:04:39.67\00:04:41.01
No, we are.
00:04:41.04\00:04:42.38
No, they are
humans too. Yeah, yeah.
00:04:42.41\00:04:43.91
We as church
leaders are humans, too.
00:04:43.95\00:04:45.58
Yes, yes.
00:04:45.61\00:04:46.95
Because we all serve as
church leaders on different...
00:04:46.98\00:04:49.95
Since I was maybe
11, 12 different things
00:04:49.98\00:04:52.35
with pathfinders,
00:04:52.39\00:04:53.72
all these different
organizations in the church
00:04:53.76\00:04:55.69
serving, people
expect different from you.
00:04:55.72\00:05:00.60
They expect this
level of perfection,
00:05:00.63\00:05:03.26
but church
leaders are humans too.
00:05:03.30\00:05:07.14
And I mean, look
at the origin of sin,
00:05:07.17\00:05:09.54
you look at the theology of sin.
00:05:09.57\00:05:12.94
Human, humanity
fell in the garden,
00:05:12.97\00:05:16.51
we all are marred
00:05:16.54\00:05:17.88
and there are different things
00:05:17.91\00:05:19.25
that we're going
to struggle with,
00:05:19.28\00:05:21.05
and sexuality is
one of those things
00:05:21.08\00:05:23.45
and one of the things that
is more hidden is pornography.
00:05:23.49\00:05:28.16
Viewing images, videos
00:05:28.19\00:05:31.13
and even maybe
taking it a step further
00:05:31.16\00:05:33.36
and actually relieving
yourselves to masturbation,
00:05:33.40\00:05:36.56
watching pornography,
00:05:36.60\00:05:38.43
and church leaders may
want healing from this,
00:05:38.47\00:05:42.60
but they have a
different level of struggle
00:05:42.64\00:05:44.94
because they're church leaders
00:05:44.97\00:05:47.08
and everyone
expects them to be perfect.
00:05:47.11\00:05:50.28
Yeah, I think
that that's very real.
00:05:50.31\00:05:53.72
There are examples like I
said in the Bible that show
00:05:53.75\00:05:58.59
that, yes, there are that God...
00:05:58.62\00:06:01.02
There is a standard,
00:06:01.06\00:06:02.42
you know, we're not saying
that there isn't a standard
00:06:02.46\00:06:06.09
that shouldn't be in place.
00:06:06.13\00:06:07.53
When you are in leadership,
00:06:07.56\00:06:08.90
you do have a
larger responsibility
00:06:08.93\00:06:12.50
to be that example just
as when you're a parent,
00:06:12.53\00:06:15.07
you have a larger
responsibility to your child
00:06:15.10\00:06:18.31
than the person down the
street has to your child.
00:06:18.34\00:06:21.18
And so in that same reality,
00:06:21.21\00:06:25.01
yes, there is a responsibility
00:06:25.05\00:06:27.08
but within that responsibility
00:06:27.12\00:06:29.48
when I mess up,
00:06:29.52\00:06:31.45
whether it be
sexual or otherwise
00:06:31.49\00:06:35.26
What is, is your
response redemptive
00:06:35.29\00:06:38.66
or is your response to
make me feel ashamed of myself,
00:06:38.69\00:06:44.00
ashamed of the sin is
different from making,
00:06:44.03\00:06:47.14
trying to make me feel,
00:06:47.17\00:06:48.60
like, I should be
ashamed of myself.
00:06:48.64\00:06:51.17
And so in that same respect
00:06:51.21\00:06:52.91
what are we doing to our
male leaders in the church,
00:06:52.94\00:06:57.35
what are we doing to our
female leaders in the church
00:06:57.38\00:07:00.65
when we find out,
yes, they have counseled us
00:07:00.68\00:07:03.45
and they have given us
the counsel of the Lord
00:07:03.49\00:07:06.09
but they are still human beings
that struggle with receiving
00:07:06.12\00:07:09.82
the counsel that God
has given them directly.
00:07:09.86\00:07:12.99
I think, for me personally
I can be minister to some,
00:07:13.03\00:07:18.93
by someone who is
honest about their struggle,
00:07:18.97\00:07:23.34
and I think there's a
difference between struggle
00:07:23.37\00:07:26.57
and... Indulgement.
00:07:26.61\00:07:27.94
Indulgence, yeah, indulgement.
00:07:27.98\00:07:29.88
And so if I'm
indulging myself into the sin
00:07:29.91\00:07:35.48
and I'm hiding it and
acting like it doesn't exist
00:07:35.52\00:07:38.85
and I'm condemning you,
00:07:38.89\00:07:41.22
but I'm keeping mine a secret,
00:07:41.26\00:07:43.59
then I'm much more frustrated
00:07:43.63\00:07:46.93
with that sort of church leader
00:07:46.96\00:07:49.33
where as if you...
00:07:49.36\00:07:51.73
The Bible says,
you know, judge not
00:07:51.77\00:07:54.20
lest you to be judged,
00:07:54.24\00:07:56.04
for in what manner you
judge you shall also be judged.
00:07:56.07\00:07:59.17
And so with that I
believe that many of us
00:07:59.21\00:08:02.51
we take that passage
00:08:02.54\00:08:04.88
and we interpret it incorrectly
00:08:04.91\00:08:07.75
because there are also
passages in 1 Corinthians
00:08:07.78\00:08:10.42
that talk about
Christians judging each other
00:08:10.45\00:08:14.39
with the righteous judgment
00:08:14.42\00:08:16.49
and for the
purpose of redemption.
00:08:16.52\00:08:18.36
And so those two
things coming together,
00:08:18.39\00:08:20.90
if I am judging you,
00:08:20.93\00:08:23.93
if I am saying
that this is wrong
00:08:23.97\00:08:26.00
as a church leader,
00:08:26.03\00:08:27.40
then I am to
still be humble and meek
00:08:27.44\00:08:30.91
understanding that
even if I'm not indulge
00:08:30.94\00:08:34.24
and indulging
myself in sexual sin
00:08:34.28\00:08:37.11
that I am not above
the possibility of falling
00:08:37.15\00:08:41.45
that we are all...
00:08:41.48\00:08:42.85
That sin is
crouching at our doors,
00:08:42.88\00:08:45.62
whether we are
church leaders or otherwise.
00:08:45.65\00:08:47.96
And I think if we
have that mentality,
00:08:47.99\00:08:50.79
then we will be able
to be much more merciful
00:08:50.83\00:08:54.13
to those who fall.
00:08:54.16\00:08:55.76
And be a resource
00:08:55.80\00:08:57.13
for those who are struggling
as well too, you know.
00:08:57.17\00:08:59.27
It's not a small thing
to come out of the darkness
00:08:59.30\00:09:02.70
and say, this is
what I'm struggling with,
00:09:02.74\00:09:05.07
even if you're, I
won't say regular person
00:09:05.11\00:09:07.54
but if you're not a leader,
00:09:07.58\00:09:09.34
but if you're a
leader and you're visible,
00:09:09.38\00:09:10.78
it is a huge energy and courage
to go, to come out and say,
00:09:10.81\00:09:14.78
"This is what
I'm struggling with."
00:09:14.82\00:09:16.25
And you mention the hoc
00:09:16.28\00:09:19.09
and there was a
very publicized case
00:09:19.12\00:09:22.26
in which this
religion teacher was caught.
00:09:22.29\00:09:25.43
He was part of those people
who were named in that website
00:09:25.46\00:09:29.83
and his shame was so strong
that he committed suicide.
00:09:29.86\00:09:33.57
He didn't, you
know, and his wife,
00:09:33.60\00:09:35.47
and speaking with her,
she said in the article
00:09:35.50\00:09:37.57
that she would
have forgiven him,
00:09:37.61\00:09:38.94
his children
would have forgiven him
00:09:38.97\00:09:40.31
and he did not, he was
not able to receive the grace
00:09:40.34\00:09:42.78
that he himself had
lived to other people.
00:09:42.81\00:09:45.61
So, you know,
suicide is not the way,
00:09:45.65\00:09:49.05
hiding and
denying it is not the way
00:09:49.08\00:09:50.85
but to come out into the light
00:09:50.89\00:09:52.22
and allow God to give you
that healing that you need.
00:09:52.25\00:09:59.06
Yeah. I'm sorry, were you...
00:09:59.09\00:10:00.50
No, no, I'm good sister.
00:10:00.53\00:10:02.66
Because I didn't
want to interrupt you
00:10:02.70\00:10:06.13
but there's a, like you
were talking about the isolation
00:10:06.17\00:10:09.90
that takes place
amongst leadership
00:10:09.94\00:10:12.17
and we're not saying,
00:10:12.21\00:10:13.61
right, that every church leader
needs to expose themselves
00:10:13.64\00:10:17.95
to their congregation.
00:10:17.98\00:10:20.02
That's not what we're saying.
00:10:20.05\00:10:23.35
I don't think that's wise.
00:10:23.39\00:10:25.35
Be real, be authentic. Yes, yes.
00:10:25.39\00:10:26.89
Right. Yeah,
definitely be... Right.
00:10:26.92\00:10:29.72
Yeah, you are not to give like
00:10:29.76\00:10:31.09
through the details
of all your struggle
00:10:31.13\00:10:32.69
and be all graphic about it
00:10:32.73\00:10:34.06
but to let people know
that your fellow journeyer
00:10:34.10\00:10:37.40
that you're on
that road together
00:10:37.43\00:10:40.37
Yeah, and I also think
00:10:40.40\00:10:42.54
before you even
try to do the whole,
00:10:42.57\00:10:44.54
I'm going to go and
tell my whole church...
00:10:44.57\00:10:47.31
Yes.
00:10:47.34\00:10:48.68
You need to
repent to be forgiven.
00:10:48.71\00:10:50.88
And even before we
repent to be forgiven,
00:10:50.91\00:10:52.65
you need to not
minimize the sin.
00:10:52.68\00:10:54.25
Oh, yeah.
00:10:54.28\00:10:55.62
And that's the number one thing
that most people do is like,
00:10:55.65\00:10:57.99
"Okay, it's not that bad..."
00:10:58.02\00:10:59.85
It's not, I'm not, especially
when it comes to pornography,
00:10:59.89\00:11:01.92
church leaders might say,
00:11:01.96\00:11:03.29
you now, I'm not
really hurting anyone,
00:11:03.32\00:11:05.49
I'm just in the
back room on my computer,
00:11:05.53\00:11:08.30
on my phone,
00:11:08.33\00:11:09.66
no one's really seeing anything.
00:11:09.70\00:11:11.37
You know, they're doing
those things to minimize it.
00:11:11.40\00:11:13.37
"Oh, yes, I'm doing,
you know, masturbation,
00:11:13.40\00:11:15.77
it's to myself, it's not
like I'm with somebody else."
00:11:15.80\00:11:18.47
They continue to
minimize and minimize, minimize
00:11:18.51\00:11:20.98
and as they're minimizing
00:11:21.01\00:11:22.54
the sin is becoming
more prevalent in their lives
00:11:22.58\00:11:25.21
and it's taking
over until one day
00:11:25.25\00:11:27.35
they might wake
up and it's like,
00:11:27.38\00:11:29.05
"Wait, my name is on a list."
00:11:29.08\00:11:30.85
And it's out of fear or
someone might catch them,
00:11:30.89\00:11:33.96
they might have forgotten
to clear their browsing history
00:11:33.99\00:11:36.06
because they've
gotten so comfortable
00:11:36.09\00:11:37.69
with their ability
to be able to hide it.
00:11:37.73\00:11:40.00
So you're minimizing
the sin not repenting,
00:11:40.03\00:11:44.27
not asking God for forgiveness,
00:11:44.30\00:11:45.87
no, you need to say
this is the problem...
00:11:45.90\00:11:48.90
I have an issue,
a concern. Right.
00:11:48.94\00:11:51.57
And it's better to do
it before you get caught.
00:11:51.61\00:11:56.48
I'm going to talk
about it in a minute
00:11:56.51\00:11:57.85
when you get caught
00:11:57.88\00:11:59.21
but if you are still able to
00:11:59.25\00:12:00.78
"Be successful in your hiding...
00:12:00.82\00:12:04.62
Stop..." Yeah.
00:12:04.65\00:12:06.15
"You need to come to this point
00:12:06.19\00:12:07.52
where you realize
something's going on..."
00:12:07.56\00:12:09.32
And if you can't stop,
get some help to help you...
00:12:09.36\00:12:10.86
Get some help.
00:12:10.89\00:12:12.23
To help you stop, right,
00:12:12.26\00:12:13.60
because if you think
it's not going to affect
00:12:13.63\00:12:14.96
other aspect of your life.
00:12:15.00\00:12:16.50
It is, you're going to leak
00:12:16.53\00:12:18.00
basically an
aspect of your lives.
00:12:18.03\00:12:20.34
I think there's a...
00:12:20.37\00:12:21.70
In with most things
00:12:21.74\00:12:23.44
we are made to
live in community.
00:12:23.47\00:12:27.08
God has created us
to live in community.
00:12:27.11\00:12:30.18
And so if you cannot...
00:12:30.21\00:12:31.95
I can understand
being a church leader,
00:12:31.98\00:12:35.55
I can understand not letting...
00:12:35.58\00:12:38.99
If I'm not telling my mentee
00:12:39.02\00:12:41.36
everything that I'm
telling my best friend.
00:12:41.39\00:12:44.99
That's just, it's not wise
00:12:45.03\00:12:47.13
because there's
an expectation here
00:12:47.16\00:12:49.90
where you should
still be transparent,
00:12:49.93\00:12:53.40
you should still be
authentic in both relationships.
00:12:53.44\00:12:58.07
There's a community I
believe that everyone,
00:12:58.11\00:13:01.41
the people who suffer the most,
00:13:01.44\00:13:03.68
church leaders
who suffer the most
00:13:03.71\00:13:05.78
don't feel like
they have anywhere to go
00:13:05.81\00:13:09.12
to be their authentic selves
00:13:09.15\00:13:12.29
And there is a danger
with only being pastor,
00:13:12.32\00:13:15.76
with only being a church leader
if that's your only identity.
00:13:15.79\00:13:21.56
If that's where you
identify yourself the most
00:13:21.60\00:13:24.47
and you feel
like I can't be human,
00:13:24.50\00:13:27.04
then situations like
what you just named suicide
00:13:27.07\00:13:31.14
when people realize
that I'm not perfect
00:13:31.17\00:13:33.84
because I'm trying to live
as if I am perfect in public
00:13:33.88\00:13:38.81
where only I knew about my sin,
00:13:38.85\00:13:41.08
now other people
know about my sin.
00:13:41.12\00:13:42.88
That can be
extremely traumatizing
00:13:42.92\00:13:46.55
and extremely overwhelming
for the church leader.
00:13:46.59\00:13:49.72
And I just wanted
to add really quickly
00:13:49.76\00:13:51.59
one thing that
church leaders need to do is
00:13:51.63\00:13:55.16
look yourself in
the mirror and say,
00:13:55.20\00:13:57.37
"I am not perfect.
00:13:57.40\00:13:59.10
Church leadership
doesn't mean I am perfect."
00:13:59.13\00:14:03.61
God may have
blessed to have you,
00:14:03.64\00:14:05.07
maybe be the pastor,
00:14:05.11\00:14:06.44
be the pastor's spouse,
00:14:06.47\00:14:08.04
be the person in
charge of the youth,
00:14:08.08\00:14:10.45
all these different
church related positions
00:14:10.48\00:14:12.31
but it's not
because you're perfect.
00:14:12.35\00:14:14.68
That's not really why
you're called to serve.
00:14:14.72\00:14:17.19
So that's one thing
to be honest and say,
00:14:17.22\00:14:18.99
"I'm not
perfect, I have problems,
00:14:19.02\00:14:20.62
I have faults
00:14:20.66\00:14:21.99
and this is the
problem that I'm having,
00:14:22.02\00:14:23.76
I'm facing right now."
00:14:23.79\00:14:25.53
And like we were saying earlier,
00:14:25.56\00:14:26.90
it's not just
males, it's also females.
00:14:26.93\00:14:30.47
And I feel females have a
different level of concern
00:14:30.50\00:14:34.97
because we're supposed
to be non-sexual beings.
00:14:35.00\00:14:38.14
We're not supposed to
be visual sexual beings,
00:14:38.17\00:14:42.51
that's what most people assume,
00:14:42.54\00:14:44.05
so when you're
caught in pornography
00:14:44.08\00:14:45.95
as a female most
people like, "What?
00:14:45.98\00:14:48.18
That's not right,
something's wrong with you."
00:14:48.22\00:14:50.29
And most women who might be
viewing this program right now
00:14:50.32\00:14:52.95
is saying, "I'm most
likely the only female
00:14:52.99\00:14:54.92
who ever
struggled with pornography
00:14:54.96\00:14:57.06
and I'm a church leader,
00:14:57.09\00:14:58.43
something is awful with me,"
00:14:58.46\00:14:59.79
and that's not the case.
00:14:59.83\00:15:01.16
Right.
00:15:01.20\00:15:02.53
You know, that's where
accountability comes into.
00:15:02.56\00:15:04.20
I mean, even trying some help,
00:15:04.23\00:15:06.10
praying for who
to go to obviously
00:15:06.13\00:15:08.30
and telling the
truth about who you are,
00:15:08.34\00:15:10.47
telling the truth to
God about who you are...
00:15:10.51\00:15:12.47
He knows but so much you
need to tell it to yourself
00:15:12.51\00:15:16.71
and then just
say, "God, here I am.
00:15:16.75\00:15:18.61
I'm laying
myself in front of you."
00:15:18.65\00:15:20.15
And I think what's important
to have is accountability,
00:15:20.18\00:15:25.19
this idea that you,
leadership does not happen,
00:15:25.22\00:15:27.76
you said it in isolation
00:15:27.79\00:15:29.12
and to see that accountability
from other leaders, you know.
00:15:29.16\00:15:32.13
Yes, and so into
the topic of women
00:15:32.16\00:15:35.43
and engaging in
pornography as well,
00:15:35.46\00:15:39.07
there is, like you said a stigma
00:15:39.10\00:15:41.07
that that's
something that men do.
00:15:41.10\00:15:43.10
That something that
only strictly men do
00:15:43.14\00:15:45.37
because men are
predominately visual,
00:15:45.41\00:15:49.34
that does not mean that
women are not visual at all.
00:15:49.38\00:15:52.71
And so if you
take just natural...
00:15:52.75\00:15:56.25
If you take a
surface observation of women,
00:15:56.28\00:16:00.42
if you are a woman or if
you listen to women talk,
00:16:00.46\00:16:03.69
you can look at a man
and say that he's attracted.
00:16:03.73\00:16:07.20
You care about, you know,
maybe the way he holds himself
00:16:07.23\00:16:11.50
in his stature
00:16:11.53\00:16:13.27
and how the way
he grooms himself.
00:16:13.30\00:16:16.10
There are women are also visual
and so you're not by yourself.
00:16:16.14\00:16:22.98
You're not alone in the reality
that women are also visual,
00:16:23.01\00:16:29.28
maybe not as visual as men.
00:16:29.32\00:16:32.12
And so that
doesn't have to be...
00:16:32.15\00:16:35.22
That's not a true...
00:16:35.26\00:16:37.79
That's not a true fact.
00:16:37.83\00:16:39.49
Yes. Right.
00:16:39.53\00:16:40.86
Like I said,
that's not a true fact.
00:16:40.90\00:16:43.40
It's believed and
people say it as fact
00:16:43.43\00:16:47.54
but it's not scientifically
or spiritually accurate.
00:16:47.57\00:16:51.17
And you know, and pornography,
00:16:51.21\00:16:52.67
and as you're
speaking I'm thinking of us,
00:16:52.71\00:16:54.61
yeah, it is visual.
00:16:54.64\00:16:55.98
When speaking to a mentor
00:16:56.01\00:16:57.78
somebody who
exemplified being open
00:16:57.81\00:17:01.62
had struggle with pornography
in terms of the written word
00:17:01.65\00:17:04.45
because I remember learning
00:17:04.49\00:17:05.82
that women words
do something to you
00:17:05.85\00:17:08.32
and so if
they're going to images,
00:17:08.36\00:17:10.09
especially went to
words which conjure up ideas
00:17:10.13\00:17:13.50
that were pornographic,
yeah, that they were...
00:17:13.53\00:17:16.06
Yeah, that she was escaping
00:17:16.10\00:17:17.43
and she got to get help for that
00:17:17.47\00:17:19.50
before she could actually
be helpful to other people
00:17:19.53\00:17:21.40
who are struggling
with that type of issue.
00:17:21.44\00:17:23.87
Right, right. Yeah.
00:17:23.91\00:17:25.24
That's still, I
mean, to me in my mind
00:17:25.27\00:17:27.41
and maybe, maybe
this is technically,
00:17:27.44\00:17:30.55
you know, not with...
00:17:30.58\00:17:32.75
It's not popular belief,
00:17:32.78\00:17:34.52
but the books that
are extremely graphic
00:17:34.55\00:17:38.39
about sexuality and affairs,
00:17:38.42\00:17:42.02
these books actually,
00:17:42.06\00:17:43.39
you know, people read
and that's pornography.
00:17:43.43\00:17:45.99
I mean, it is pornography...
00:17:46.03\00:17:47.66
It may not be the magazines...
00:17:47.70\00:17:49.26
Right. Yeah,
it's a female version.
00:17:49.30\00:17:50.77
It changes your mind.
00:17:50.80\00:17:52.13
Because it allows you,
00:17:52.17\00:17:53.50
it's even in a
sense more dangerous
00:17:53.54\00:17:56.00
because you can put anyone
00:17:56.04\00:17:58.27
into that role of
what you're reading.
00:17:58.31\00:18:01.64
You can take people that you see
00:18:01.68\00:18:06.45
on a day to day basis
and put their face on that...
00:18:06.48\00:18:10.49
Right, it's
very, very dangerous.
00:18:10.52\00:18:13.25
And so that's something
that I know more women,
00:18:13.29\00:18:17.73
in my limited perspective,
00:18:17.76\00:18:20.60
I've seen more women
read those sorts of books
00:18:20.63\00:18:23.97
than I have men read
those sorts of books,
00:18:24.00\00:18:26.80
but it's still pornography.
00:18:26.84\00:18:28.27
And I've seen it be
minimized actually...
00:18:28.30\00:18:30.41
That this is not so bad,
00:18:30.44\00:18:31.97
and I think you made
the very important point
00:18:32.01\00:18:33.58
that it's just as harmful.
00:18:33.61\00:18:35.21
It is, it is.
It's just as harmful.
00:18:35.24\00:18:38.48
So we talked about a
little bit about pornography,
00:18:38.51\00:18:40.75
church leadership
00:18:40.78\00:18:42.12
and struggling with the sin,
00:18:42.15\00:18:44.49
but what happens
when you're caught
00:18:44.52\00:18:46.35
and everyone knows?
00:18:46.39\00:18:49.26
What happens to
you when you're caught
00:18:49.29\00:18:51.49
and everybody knows
as the church leader?
00:18:51.53\00:18:54.20
What happens to the spouse,
00:18:54.23\00:18:56.20
the children, even the parents?
00:18:56.23\00:18:58.90
Let's talk a
little bit about that?
00:18:58.93\00:19:01.10
Well, you know, I think
00:19:01.14\00:19:02.47
hopefully the person is humbled.
00:19:02.50\00:19:04.11
And early in my
experience, I had a...
00:19:04.14\00:19:07.34
A church leader that
I really looked up to
00:19:07.38\00:19:09.24
and respected and was caught
00:19:09.28\00:19:11.05
and in addition to that he
was caught having an affair
00:19:11.08\00:19:13.92
which is oftentimes a result
00:19:13.95\00:19:15.32
of filling your
mind with strangers,
00:19:15.35\00:19:18.29
people who you put faces to,
00:19:18.32\00:19:19.65
suddenly you're like,
you know what, I want to...
00:19:19.69\00:19:21.02
I'm going to act it out.
00:19:21.06\00:19:22.39
And that's what he did.
00:19:22.42\00:19:23.76
And I can tell you sitting there
00:19:23.79\00:19:25.13
in that group of other leaders
00:19:25.16\00:19:27.90
and hearing his
confession, his tears,
00:19:27.93\00:19:31.53
his sobbing,
00:19:31.57\00:19:33.50
there was a lot of shame there
00:19:33.54\00:19:35.24
because he had been caught
00:19:35.27\00:19:37.24
but with the humility,
00:19:37.27\00:19:38.97
I mean, surely he
was a broken person
00:19:39.01\00:19:40.68
and I have so
many mixed feelings
00:19:40.71\00:19:44.31
but what I saw and grateful for
00:19:44.35\00:19:47.05
is that this
person was wanting to be
00:19:47.08\00:19:48.82
on a journey of redemption.
00:19:48.85\00:19:50.19
He's like, "I will do
anything to get back into,
00:19:50.22\00:19:53.15
to gain back your respect.
00:19:53.19\00:19:54.52
I will do anything.
00:19:54.56\00:19:55.89
I'm repenting and I
want a different life.
00:19:55.92\00:19:58.19
And as leaders, in
fact, I'm not perfect
00:19:58.23\00:20:03.16
and I'm tired of
playing that role,"
00:20:03.20\00:20:05.23
he said
something to that effect.
00:20:05.27\00:20:06.60
And you know what?
00:20:06.63\00:20:07.97
He did that, he went through,
00:20:08.00\00:20:09.34
he put himself under the
leadership of another leader
00:20:09.37\00:20:11.47
and went to that journey...
00:20:11.51\00:20:12.84
Yeah, in
humility, and accountability
00:20:12.87\00:20:14.51
with his wife
00:20:14.54\00:20:16.31
and doing everything necessary
to show his transformation.
00:20:16.34\00:20:19.58
And so I think
humility is important.
00:20:19.61\00:20:21.68
Yes, definitely, humility
is definitely important.
00:20:21.72\00:20:24.89
You know, we have
the story of David,
00:20:24.92\00:20:27.06
right and even though David
wasn't caught in pornography,
00:20:27.09\00:20:30.56
it was still sexual sin.
00:20:30.59\00:20:32.29
And so as we group
pornography and sexual sin
00:20:32.33\00:20:35.46
as the same things.
00:20:35.50\00:20:37.87
We can say that...
It's not minimized.
00:20:37.90\00:20:39.90
Right, it's not minimized.
00:20:39.93\00:20:41.74
It's not
appropriate to minimize it,
00:20:41.77\00:20:43.77
it is not
minimized in the eyes of God.
00:20:43.81\00:20:45.94
It is still sexual sin.
00:20:45.97\00:20:47.48
And so when we look
at the story of David
00:20:47.51\00:20:50.75
and Nathan came
to him in rebuke.
00:20:50.78\00:20:54.65
It was for the purpose
once again of restoration,
00:20:54.68\00:20:58.52
it wasn't for the purpose of,
00:20:58.55\00:21:00.42
you know, now I'm
going to tell all of Israel
00:21:00.46\00:21:02.79
and you know, now you
should feel ashamed of yourself,
00:21:02.82\00:21:06.29
where he did,
00:21:06.33\00:21:07.66
you know, there is a
process of feeling ashamed,
00:21:07.70\00:21:10.40
but in David's household after,
00:21:10.43\00:21:12.43
you know, he impregnated
Bathsheba and all of that,
00:21:12.47\00:21:15.87
his household they
were mourning for him,
00:21:15.90\00:21:19.31
they were praying for him.
00:21:19.34\00:21:21.71
Nathan was still
interceding on his behalf.
00:21:21.74\00:21:27.85
And so as Christians,
00:21:27.88\00:21:31.19
that as
Christians and this is what,
00:21:31.22\00:21:33.66
yes, there is another
standard in leadership,
00:21:33.69\00:21:36.56
but as Christians we understand
00:21:36.59\00:21:38.93
that we are supposed to
be shepherding the world.
00:21:38.96\00:21:42.60
We are supposed to be
shepherding the nation.
00:21:42.63\00:21:44.80
The pastor is the shepherd
of the shepherds, right?
00:21:44.83\00:21:49.07
Ultimately God is
all is our shepherd
00:21:49.10\00:21:52.11
but there's this myth,
00:21:52.14\00:21:55.28
the Lord allows us to
participate in His ministry.
00:21:55.31\00:21:58.78
And so just as,
you know, as an example
00:21:58.81\00:22:01.65
God is the creator,
00:22:01.68\00:22:03.12
He allows humans to
participate in procreation.
00:22:03.15\00:22:06.62
And so in that same
principle, God is the shepherd,
00:22:06.65\00:22:10.19
but He allows us
to shepherd others
00:22:10.23\00:22:12.93
and so as we have this
standard for our leaders
00:22:12.96\00:22:17.43
in sexual, you
know, sexual immorality
00:22:17.47\00:22:19.57
you know, we should,
00:22:19.60\00:22:20.94
we should also have the
same expectation of ourselves.
00:22:20.97\00:22:24.47
And so how do we...
00:22:24.51\00:22:26.37
How are we
demonstrating Christ's love
00:22:26.41\00:22:29.48
to these leaders
00:22:29.51\00:22:30.95
that are
falling into sexual sin?
00:22:30.98\00:22:33.15
Do we allow them privacy?
00:22:33.18\00:22:35.48
Do we allow them to have
their accountability groups
00:22:35.52\00:22:39.35
or do we say that we need
to know all of their business.
00:22:39.39\00:22:42.22
No, I don't believe
that that's appropriate,
00:22:42.26\00:22:44.89
that we need to
allow our church leaders
00:22:44.93\00:22:47.86
to have accountability groups
00:22:47.90\00:22:50.00
and to have some sort of privacy
00:22:50.03\00:22:52.43
so they can be encouraged
00:22:52.47\00:22:54.74
and they can be
vulnerable in a way
00:22:54.77\00:22:56.50
that I don't want to hear
all of my pastor's business,
00:22:56.54\00:23:00.14
you know, necessary, I
don't unless I'm counseling him.
00:23:00.18\00:23:05.58
If I'm counseling
him, that's one thing.
00:23:05.61\00:23:07.58
But if I'm just
sitting in the congregation,
00:23:07.62\00:23:09.45
there are some people
who don't want to hear
00:23:09.48\00:23:11.75
because everyone is at
00:23:11.79\00:23:13.12
different
levels of faith, right?
00:23:13.15\00:23:15.32
The Bible talks about
00:23:15.36\00:23:16.93
how different things
can be stumbling blocks.
00:23:16.96\00:23:19.93
And so it can be
a stumbling block
00:23:19.96\00:23:22.06
for me to hear that
my pastor has done this.
00:23:22.10\00:23:25.57
And so I don't think
it's appropriate for us
00:23:25.60\00:23:28.10
to force our
leaders to expose themselves
00:23:28.14\00:23:31.67
to the whole congregation
00:23:31.71\00:23:33.11
because you may be
okay with hearing that,
00:23:33.14\00:23:35.71
but the person
who just got baptized
00:23:35.74\00:23:38.05
or the person
who just rededicated
00:23:38.08\00:23:40.25
their lives to Christ
00:23:40.28\00:23:42.08
may not be able to take that
00:23:42.12\00:23:43.89
and then possibly look
at God as an unjust God
00:23:43.92\00:23:48.36
because they see
that people can fall
00:23:48.39\00:23:52.06
and they're not ready to
receive that information yet.
00:23:52.09\00:23:55.00
Turning back again on the whole,
00:23:55.03\00:23:56.40
you're caught
in the pornography,
00:23:56.43\00:23:58.20
what does the community doing?
00:23:58.23\00:23:59.73
I want to just
highlight what you said,
00:23:59.77\00:24:01.80
pray for the person.
00:24:01.84\00:24:04.34
Don't shame them,
00:24:04.37\00:24:05.74
don't be like, "Oh,
look at what you did,"
00:24:05.77\00:24:07.58
Pray for them, support them,
00:24:07.61\00:24:09.88
help them to be
able to get the resources
00:24:09.91\00:24:11.65
that they need to heal.
00:24:11.68\00:24:13.82
I also want to add that
the spouses need support.
00:24:13.85\00:24:18.69
Because some of the things
that they might be wondering is
00:24:18.72\00:24:21.42
why is it my
spouse go to pornography,
00:24:21.46\00:24:24.23
the husband might
be, am I not good enough,
00:24:24.26\00:24:25.86
am I not satisfying her,
00:24:25.89\00:24:27.33
that's a big thing for me.
00:24:27.36\00:24:28.70
Am I not doing
what I'm supposed to do.
00:24:28.73\00:24:30.73
And women will be
questioning themselves also
00:24:30.77\00:24:33.74
why is my husband
looking at other women?
00:24:33.77\00:24:35.67
Am I not beautiful enough?
00:24:35.70\00:24:37.14
Am I not attractive enough?
00:24:37.17\00:24:38.77
And when a leader is caught
in pornography, sexual sin,
00:24:38.81\00:24:44.78
we shouldn't just
toss everyone to the side,
00:24:44.81\00:24:47.38
they need support also
00:24:47.42\00:24:49.05
to build up their
self, their self-esteem,
00:24:49.08\00:24:51.65
their self image in God
00:24:51.69\00:24:53.29
to realize that they
are what they need to be
00:24:53.32\00:24:55.66
and this is
something completely different
00:24:55.69\00:24:57.43
out of them.
00:24:57.46\00:24:58.79
There's nothing...
00:24:58.83\00:25:00.16
There's no
reason why the husband,
00:25:00.20\00:25:02.63
the wife did it related to them.
00:25:02.66\00:25:05.00
It wasn't because
they were inefficient
00:25:05.03\00:25:07.04
that they weren't enough...
00:25:07.07\00:25:08.54
Right. Is a
struggle that's within.
00:25:08.57\00:25:11.57
Right, right and I
think that's very true.
00:25:11.61\00:25:13.48
I think the
statistics actually show
00:25:13.51\00:25:15.44
that people who are
engaged in pornography
00:25:15.48\00:25:18.81
in their adult life,
00:25:18.85\00:25:20.22
they get engaged in pornography
00:25:20.25\00:25:22.28
in like their
junior high school age,
00:25:22.32\00:25:26.29
around when puberty first starts
00:25:26.32\00:25:28.39
and some even younger than that.
00:25:28.42\00:25:30.06
And so as you take on
that, that understanding,
00:25:30.09\00:25:34.03
you know, wives, if your husband
00:25:34.06\00:25:36.50
is engaged in pornography
00:25:36.53\00:25:38.37
or, husbands, if your wives
are engaged in pornography,
00:25:38.40\00:25:41.77
it's not personal,
00:25:41.80\00:25:43.14
it's something
that more than likely
00:25:43.17\00:25:46.17
started way before
they even met their spouse.
00:25:46.21\00:25:50.81
And so
understanding that this is...
00:25:50.85\00:25:53.85
It's not a personal thing
00:25:53.88\00:25:55.22
but it is a
spirit, it is spiritual.
00:25:55.25\00:25:57.49
And it is addicting.
00:25:57.52\00:26:00.59
It is something that
they may, like you said before
00:26:00.62\00:26:04.99
hate themselves for
00:26:05.03\00:26:06.96
or feel disgusted
with themselves for
00:26:07.00\00:26:09.83
and so to...
00:26:09.86\00:26:11.20
For you to also add
on to that disgust is,
00:26:11.23\00:26:14.97
can really be even
further demoralizing
00:26:15.00\00:26:20.78
because maybe you
loved me and your love for me
00:26:20.81\00:26:24.35
is a part of what kept
me to fight this thing,
00:26:24.38\00:26:27.85
but now that I feel
like your love has grown less
00:26:27.88\00:26:33.09
then now, you know, I
might want to commit suicide
00:26:33.12\00:26:37.49
or I might feel like I
can no longer be used by God.
00:26:37.53\00:26:40.50
And so I will no longer pastor,
00:26:40.53\00:26:43.03
I will no longer be
the elder or the deacon
00:26:43.06\00:26:45.97
and things like that.
00:26:46.00\00:26:47.34
And that's not the redemptive
Gospel of Jesus Christ.
00:26:47.37\00:26:52.84
And so I believe
that that's the...
00:26:52.87\00:26:54.64
Like what you just
said, that's what, that's our,
00:26:54.68\00:26:56.61
that should be our response.
00:26:56.64\00:26:58.01
How can we bring this
person closer to Christ?
00:26:58.05\00:27:00.95
How can we?
00:27:00.98\00:27:02.45
And let's not wait
to pray for our leaders,
00:27:02.48\00:27:05.22
you know, you don't know
what they're going through.
00:27:05.25\00:27:08.12
So you need to
start praying for them
00:27:08.16\00:27:09.49
now would be, would be
super important as well.
00:27:09.52\00:27:13.13
And hopefully we don't
wait till they discovered
00:27:13.16\00:27:15.50
to be able to say this
is what I'm going through,
00:27:15.53\00:27:18.80
they reach out for help.
00:27:18.83\00:27:20.17
And as we are wrapping up,
00:27:20.20\00:27:21.90
I want to be able to speak
00:27:21.94\00:27:23.34
just pertaining to
the church leaders.
00:27:23.37\00:27:25.61
If you know you're in
the sexual sin, repent.
00:27:25.64\00:27:29.21
And if you have repent,
accept God's forgiveness.
00:27:29.24\00:27:33.35
And members who may
know about this sexual sin
00:27:33.38\00:27:35.65
accept that God
has forgiven them
00:27:35.68\00:27:37.35
and press forward.
00:27:37.39\00:27:38.99
2 Corinthians 5:17 says,
00:27:39.02\00:27:41.29
"This means that
anyone who belongs to Christ
00:27:41.32\00:27:43.26
has become a new person.
00:27:43.29\00:27:44.96
The old life is gone
and a new life has begun."
00:27:44.99\00:27:48.96
If you have done what is needed,
00:27:49.00\00:27:50.70
God has forgiven you.
00:27:50.73\00:27:52.30
So go, press forward
and make pure choices.
00:27:52.33\00:27:55.90
Thank you.
00:27:55.94\00:27:57.27