The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are cautioned
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that some
material may be too candid
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for younger children.
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Hello, and
welcome to Pure Choices.
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My name is Danielle Harrison.
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And I'm with
Coming Out Ministries.
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Today, we're going to be
talking with Ron Woolsey.
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Welcome, Ron.
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Thank you, Danielle.
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Good to be with you again.
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Amen.
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So, Ron, in generations past,
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there's been a
clear understanding
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within the Christian community
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that
homosexuality is not in harmony
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with biblical
standards and views.
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So it hasn't been practiced
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that homosexuals have
been welcomed into membership
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and especially not into
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leadership
positions in the church.
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But somehow it seems that
that is shifting and changing
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in this current generation.
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Why do you think that is?
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Danielle, it seems that
the tendency in society today
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is to yield to
political correctness
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and political pressure.
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And as the gay culture
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has experienced
over decades now,
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not only toleration,
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but acceptance, and celebration,
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and promotion, and
legislation in their favor.
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Gay people who
identify as Christians
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have also been emboldened
by all of these advances.
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And so many gay people
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that are raised in
a Christian culture
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are comfortable
within that culture.
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They don't want to be
rejected by that culture.
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And so they are involved
in bringing this gay agenda
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into their culture
which is the church.
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So even if they reject
the authority of the Bible
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and the standards of the
church on the same issue,
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they still want to
remain in that culture.
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So consequently the gay agenda
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to normalize homosexuality
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is now being put
upon the church itself
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by gay organizations,
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by lobbyists, by petitions,
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by articles in publications.
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And the emphasis seems to be
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to get the church to
change its position on the issue
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rather than helping the
sinner change his behavior.
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Okay.
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So what do you think
are some of the expectations
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of the gay community
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of what they will
experience in the church,
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and in
membership, and in leadership?
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Well, because of this
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hypersensitive
perception of rejection
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which I see, observe
throughout the gay community,
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the gay people who are
in the Christian culture
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want to retain their membership.
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They don't want to be
put out of the church.
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That's rejection.
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They don't want to go
through church discipline.
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But as they are
members of the church,
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they also want to be
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incorporated into
leadership positions.
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And now with the
Supreme Court ruling
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and the climate
such as it is today,
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they want to be able
to have gay marriages
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and to have their
gay families accepted.
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So basically, it
is to have the church
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accept the
normalization of homosexuality.
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So as you're
talking about acceptance,
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it reminds me of a flyer
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that I saw for a
church and it said,
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you know, "Come as
you are, you are welcome.
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Gays and homosexuals
are wholly accepted by God."
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And I'm just wondering,
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do you think that
there's anything wrong
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with that wording
on a flyer like that?
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Well, there is a lot of
truth to this statement.
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I think it says,
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"Come, you are
wholly loved and accepted."
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And so there is a lot of truth.
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But having been a
bartender in the past,
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I know that
there's a lot of good
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in certain drinks, mixed drinks.
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But if you have a
little bit of poison,
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you can get drunk on it.
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So the statement about
you are being wholly loved,
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yes, "Come as you are."
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Yes, absolutely.
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But accepted?
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That's a little bit different.
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Because God will accept us
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as we are into a
school of transformation,
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a school of discipleship.
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But the Bible doesn't
give blanket acceptance
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to open to sin.
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For example, if a
couple wants to adopt a child,
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they adopt a
child that they love.
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But they don't adopt the child
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and then leave it
in the same condition
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that they found the child in.
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They will give it new
clothes, and good bedding,
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and healthy
food, and an education.
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So if we're adopted
into the family of Christ,
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we are accepted by Christ,
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but we're accepted
into an environment
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where we can be transformed
and have a better life.
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That's right.
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And, you know, Ron,
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that makes me
think of 1 John 1:9.
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Because I think we hear
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that God forgives
you, God forgives you.
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But there's no
give and take there
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for a lot of the
Christian church.
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And, you know, he says if we...
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In 1 John 1:9, "If
we confess our sins,
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He is faithful and just to
forgive us and cleanse us."
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So we have to walk
with God in this experience.
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It's just a give and take,
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just like any
other relationship.
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Right, in that
text you're mentioning,
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it seems like many Christians
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put the period in the
middle of the sentence.
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Yes.
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Now "If we confess
our sins, He is faithful
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and just to
forgive us of our sins."
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Period.
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But the rest of the verse says,
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"And to cleanse us
from all unrighteousness."
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In 2 Corinthians 5:17,
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one of our
favorite texts of scripture,
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"Therefore if
any man be in Christ,
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he is a new creature,
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old things have passed away,
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all things have become new."
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So these are things
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that are
overlooked in this flyer.
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It's just come as
you are, God loves you,
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and accepts you the way you are.
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And we need to clarify,
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God does not
accept us the way we are.
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He accepts us where we are
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to give us a better way,
to lead us into a better way.
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He does love and accept
us, but to a better life.
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That's right.
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And I'm glad He does
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because I would not have
wanted to stay where I was
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before I knew Him.
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So in that same flyer,
Ron, I know that it says
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that the Bible never
mentions homosexuality
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or sexual orientation.
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Is that a correct statement?
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I found that just
amazing to see that statement.
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But then I realized
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if they're quoting
from the King James Version,
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it's true.
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The King James Version
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does not use
the word homosexual.
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But it does use the
word pedophile or marijuana
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or cigarettes or
alcohol or all kinds of things.
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But what the Bible
does it spells out behavior,
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so that no matter
how language changes
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or terms change from
generation to generation,
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the behavior is
still spelled out.
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But one thing I did notice.
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All of the other translations
do use the word homosexual.
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In fact, that flyer
that we're discussing
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is quoting from the NIV.
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And if you look at for example,
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1 Corinthians 6:9-11,
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the NIV says,
"Do not be deceived,
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neither male prostitutes
nor homosexual offenders
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will inherit the kingdom of God.
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And that is what
some of you were."
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So the NIV does use
the word homosexual.
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And I went through a
number of translations
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all of which do use
the word homosexual.
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So it is very clearly
mentioned in the Bible.
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That's right. That's right.
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Thank you, Ron.
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So shifting gears here,
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I'm going to just
mention a petition
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that circulated
throughout the church,
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and it opened
with this statement,
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"Of all the distinctives,
that might define Christians,
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Jesus identified only one thing
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that will
distinguish His followers."
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It quotes John
13:34 and 35 that say,
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"A new command I give
you: love one another.
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As I have loved you,
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so that you must
love one another.
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By this, everyone will
know that you are my disciples
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if you love one another."
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Is this really the one thing
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that will
distinguish Christ followers?
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No.
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To me that is
really a quantum leap
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and we have to understand
here the whole purpose
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of these petitions and flyers
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really is to make the
LGBT issue a non issue
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within the church.
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But the command
that is given here
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is not the only
distinctive that we are given.
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For example...
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in Luke 18, Luke 10,
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and in the story of the
jailer of Philippi in Acts 16,
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there are three stories
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where the question is
asked what must I do to be saved
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or what shall I do
to inherit eternal life?
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And love is
certainly one of those things.
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The first thing is
to love God supremely,
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love your neighbor as yourself.
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In other words,
love and be saved.
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But the second answer
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that was given like
to the rich young ruler
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was, "Keep the commandments."
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So Jesus says, "If you
love Me, keep My commandments."
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So that is something
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that
distinguishes God's followers.
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And to the jailer of Philippi,
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he was told, "Believe
on the Lord Jesus Christ
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and thou shall be saved."
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Well, Lord Jesus Christ,
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if you use the
definitions for those words.
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Paul is basically
saying believe on Jehovah,
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the great I am, the
creator, the self-existent one,
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anointed, Messiah, Christ,
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anointed by the Holy Spirit
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to be your
personal Savior from sin.
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Jesus means Savior,
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and then you should be saved.
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So the Bible has many
identifying characteristics
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of His people, of God's people.
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There's not just one thing.
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However, love is
the guiding principle.
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But the text
that they're quoting
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makes it sound like,
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"If you just love somebody,
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then you're a
follower of Christ."
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And that's not what
the text is saying at all.
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Amen. Amen.
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So in the same petition,
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they were stating
that the church has failed
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to demonstrate the Christ-like
love to the LGBT community.
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And they called the church
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to begin to
demonstrate that love
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through five different points.
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And if I could run,
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I would just like to read those
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and then have you
respond to each one of those.
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Okay? Okay.
00:11:41.73\00:11:43.06
So the first one is,
00:11:43.10\00:11:44.43
"Acknowledge that a
homosexual orientation
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is most often
determined before birth,
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and, or very soon after
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by a complex combination
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of physiological and
environmental factors
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that are beyond the
individual's control."
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This is a very false assumption.
00:12:01.85\00:12:04.19
And, but first I
would like to say
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about this whole petition.
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Scripture is never quoted.
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There is nothing
in the entire petition
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that refers to the Word of God.
00:12:13.73\00:12:15.33
Wow.
00:12:15.36\00:12:16.70
And so here again we
see Christian culture
00:12:16.73\00:12:21.20
but not Christian faith.
00:12:21.24\00:12:23.30
The Word of God is not being
looked upon as the authority.
00:12:23.34\00:12:29.04
And so to call for the
church to acknowledge this,
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first of all,
it's not scientific.
00:12:33.42\00:12:36.58
So it's calling for the church
00:12:36.62\00:12:38.52
to acknowledge
something that is false.
00:12:38.55\00:12:41.62
It's not truth.
00:12:41.66\00:12:43.16
And as Christians, we
are looking for truth.
00:12:43.19\00:12:48.16
It talks about
homosexual orientation
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as though it is
something that we're born with.
00:12:50.33\00:12:53.54
And having been a
pilot in the past,
00:12:53.57\00:12:57.41
I know that orientation
00:12:57.44\00:12:59.11
is determined by the
direction that I'm going.
00:12:59.14\00:13:04.85
If I am oriented on self,
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I'll never land
where I'm supposed to land.
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Orientation is a destiny.
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It's not a condition.
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And if we just
look at the definition
00:13:15.12\00:13:17.39
in the dictionary.
00:13:17.43\00:13:18.86
Orientation is
something that is chosen.
00:13:18.89\00:13:22.10
And then we have that
good word, reorientation.
00:13:22.13\00:13:25.60
So yes, the church
cannot possibly acknowledge this
00:13:25.63\00:13:28.67
unless it is
acknowledging falsehood.
00:13:28.70\00:13:32.97
I really
appreciated what you said, Ron.
00:13:33.01\00:13:34.74
You said
orientation is a destiny,
00:13:34.78\00:13:38.01
not a condition.
00:13:38.05\00:13:39.38
Yes. That's a profound thought.
00:13:39.41\00:13:40.75
Wow. Right.
00:13:40.78\00:13:42.12
We focus upon our destiny,
00:13:42.15\00:13:43.99
not upon who we are
but where we're going.
00:13:44.02\00:13:48.56
Right. Yes.
00:13:48.59\00:13:49.92
Well, thank you
for sharing that.
00:13:49.96\00:13:51.29
Okay, so number two is
00:13:51.33\00:13:52.66
"Reject as a form of violence
00:13:52.69\00:13:55.50
any programs that
attempt to change or redirect
00:13:55.53\00:13:59.00
one's sexual orientation.
00:13:59.03\00:14:00.90
Recognizing that orientation
is highly unlikely to change
00:14:00.94\00:14:05.07
and that such attempts
have caused deep trauma
00:14:05.11\00:14:07.98
and even lead to
becoming suicidal."
00:14:08.01\00:14:12.68
To me, this request is to ask,
00:14:12.71\00:14:17.42
it's asking the church to reject
00:14:17.45\00:14:20.12
the mission of the church
00:14:20.16\00:14:22.59
as a form of violence.
00:14:22.62\00:14:24.69
When Jesus says, "All
power is given unto Me
00:14:24.73\00:14:27.56
in heaven and earth.
00:14:27.60\00:14:29.26
Go ye therefore
00:14:29.30\00:14:31.73
and teach all
nations baptizing them
00:14:31.77\00:14:34.40
in the name of
the Father and the Son
00:14:34.44\00:14:35.77
and the Holy Spirit."
00:14:35.80\00:14:37.14
Teaching them to
observe all things
00:14:37.17\00:14:40.04
whatsoever I have commanded you.
00:14:40.08\00:14:43.48
That's not violence.
00:14:43.51\00:14:45.38
1 John 4:8 tells
us that "God is love."
00:14:45.41\00:14:48.75
Everything that
God is asking of us
00:14:48.78\00:14:51.42
is as a loving Heavenly Father.
00:14:51.45\00:14:54.16
And to reject as
a form of violence,
00:14:54.19\00:14:56.42
the very thing that
the plan of salvation
00:14:56.46\00:14:58.76
is all about to me is
a little bit startling.
00:14:58.79\00:15:02.30
It's a startling request.
00:15:02.33\00:15:06.17
It mentions here
the attempts at suicide.
00:15:06.20\00:15:13.07
The percentage or the
rate of suicide attempts
00:15:13.11\00:15:16.68
is very high
within the gay community.
00:15:16.71\00:15:18.41
That's right.
00:15:18.45\00:15:19.78
That's without
the gospel, Danielle.
00:15:19.81\00:15:22.78
We should not blame the gospel
00:15:22.82\00:15:25.05
and the
presenting of the gospel.
00:15:25.09\00:15:27.59
For someone attempting
or committing suicide,
00:15:27.62\00:15:31.43
they're doing that
without the gospel.
00:15:31.46\00:15:33.80
Now if they do hear the gospel
00:15:33.83\00:15:35.46
and they do hear
the invitation of Jesus,
00:15:35.50\00:15:37.53
and they reject it
00:15:37.57\00:15:39.17
and continue down that path,
00:15:39.20\00:15:41.60
it's not the
fault of the message
00:15:41.64\00:15:43.91
or the messenger.
00:15:43.94\00:15:45.31
It is the fault of rejection.
00:15:45.34\00:15:47.41
And, you know, in
the gay community,
00:15:47.44\00:15:49.18
there's this
perception of rejection.
00:15:49.21\00:15:52.75
How must God feel?
00:15:52.78\00:15:54.72
He is constantly being rejected.
00:15:54.75\00:15:57.35
His word is being rejected.
00:15:57.39\00:15:59.65
We need to be
hypersensitive to His feelings,
00:15:59.69\00:16:02.89
and His emotions,
00:16:02.92\00:16:04.36
and His expressed will
00:16:04.39\00:16:06.13
especially if we are Christian,
00:16:06.16\00:16:07.86
and God is number one on
the throne of our hearts.
00:16:07.90\00:16:10.43
Amen. Amen.
00:16:10.47\00:16:11.80
All right.
00:16:11.83\00:16:13.17
Number three, "Act
deliberately and decisively
00:16:13.20\00:16:16.87
to prevent judgmental
and condemning attitudes
00:16:16.91\00:16:19.67
and acts against
homosexual individuals."
00:16:19.71\00:16:23.21
Well, here again this is
very similar to number two.
00:16:23.24\00:16:27.78
Because the work of the gospel
00:16:27.82\00:16:33.32
or those of us
00:16:33.36\00:16:34.69
who are presenting
the gospel to someone
00:16:34.72\00:16:36.89
is really an act of love
00:16:36.93\00:16:38.39
and they're asking us
00:16:38.43\00:16:40.66
to prevent judgmental
and condemning attitudes.
00:16:40.70\00:16:46.74
What we are presenting is
considered to be judgmental.
00:16:46.77\00:16:50.01
Why?
00:16:50.04\00:16:51.37
Because it
crosses the natural heart.
00:16:51.41\00:16:56.01
It is because
He's being rejected.
00:16:56.04\00:16:58.11
You know, Danielle,
when I was trying to study
00:16:58.15\00:17:00.52
my way out of the
gay life, I did not...
00:17:00.55\00:17:03.85
I don't remember ever
being caught up with semantics.
00:17:03.89\00:17:07.39
If someone used, I mean, I
understood what they meant.
00:17:07.42\00:17:11.53
And to be limited by
the words that we can say,
00:17:11.56\00:17:15.36
the phrases that we can say,
00:17:15.40\00:17:17.23
because they might be offensive.
00:17:17.27\00:17:19.33
I never found any
of that offensive to me
00:17:19.37\00:17:22.14
because I was
searching for truth.
00:17:22.17\00:17:24.84
And if they used words
00:17:24.87\00:17:26.54
that I might not
have chosen to use,
00:17:26.57\00:17:29.01
I got the message,
I understand English,
00:17:29.04\00:17:32.05
I understand where
they were coming from.
00:17:32.08\00:17:35.05
And again, I don't think that
the gospel should be portrayed
00:17:35.08\00:17:40.16
as judgmental and
condemning against homosexuals.
00:17:40.19\00:17:44.13
Otherwise we label the infinite
work of Jesus Christ Himself
00:17:44.16\00:17:48.66
as judgmental and condemning.
00:17:48.70\00:17:50.90
And we know it's not.
00:17:50.93\00:17:52.27
He says,
"Neither do I condemn you.
00:17:52.30\00:17:54.47
Go and sin no more."
00:17:54.50\00:17:56.34
Now there are people
00:17:56.37\00:17:57.71
that are putting forth
these types of requests
00:17:57.74\00:18:01.34
that love the
part of Jesus words,
00:18:01.38\00:18:04.28
"Neither do I condemn you."
00:18:04.31\00:18:06.21
Oh, that's the gospel.
00:18:06.25\00:18:08.32
But don't speak
the last half of it.
00:18:08.35\00:18:10.05
When you say
00:18:10.09\00:18:11.42
and I've heard
them actually say,
00:18:11.45\00:18:12.99
"go and sin no more" is
being used as hate speech.
00:18:13.02\00:18:16.26
Wow.
00:18:16.29\00:18:17.63
Those are Jesus' words.
00:18:17.66\00:18:18.99
God is love.
00:18:19.03\00:18:20.36
And so it is not true
love to withhold this message.
00:18:20.40\00:18:26.00
It is what I call a cheap love.
00:18:26.03\00:18:29.14
Okay.
00:18:29.17\00:18:30.51
So number four
on this list says,
00:18:30.54\00:18:31.97
"Provide our
homosexual sisters and brothers
00:18:32.01\00:18:34.48
not only a place in our pews
00:18:34.51\00:18:36.44
but also a
space on our platforms
00:18:36.48\00:18:39.08
allowing all of the gifts of God
00:18:39.11\00:18:41.18
that God has given them to
be used to honor and serve Him."
00:18:41.22\00:18:46.25
You know where my mind
goes immediately there.
00:18:46.29\00:18:49.49
I think the most gifted being
00:18:49.52\00:18:51.56
that was ever
created was Lucifer, right?
00:18:51.59\00:18:56.60
He was like the
choir director of heaven.
00:18:56.63\00:18:58.83
He was
gorgeous. He was talented.
00:18:58.87\00:19:01.40
He had so much to offer
00:19:01.44\00:19:03.34
in the service and
worship of God in heaven.
00:19:03.37\00:19:07.88
But what did he
do with those gifts?
00:19:07.91\00:19:11.51
He used all of his talents
to deceive and to diminish
00:19:11.55\00:19:17.95
the perception of who God is.
00:19:17.99\00:19:22.09
And with the pride,
and the selfishness,
00:19:22.12\00:19:25.46
and the covetousness
that was in his heart
00:19:25.49\00:19:27.83
with his self serving attitude,
00:19:27.86\00:19:31.27
he took all of
those wonderful gifts
00:19:31.30\00:19:33.54
and he deceived a
third of the angels of heaven
00:19:33.57\00:19:36.24
and they ended up
being cast out of heaven.
00:19:36.27\00:19:41.31
Those same gifts he still has,
00:19:41.34\00:19:44.21
but I don't want to invite
those gifts into the church.
00:19:44.25\00:19:48.08
And so just because
we find a gay person
00:19:48.12\00:19:50.62
that is very
gifted, very talented
00:19:50.65\00:19:53.42
does not mean that should
be brought into the church.
00:19:53.46\00:19:56.76
I know when I was
living in Southern California,
00:19:56.79\00:20:00.70
and I was being introduced
to a Christian gay organization.
00:20:00.73\00:20:05.77
And as a way to bring
me into the organization
00:20:05.80\00:20:08.54
and bring me
back into the church,
00:20:08.57\00:20:10.67
they started inviting
me to play the pipe organ
00:20:10.71\00:20:14.94
for one of the churches there.
00:20:14.98\00:20:16.54
I was actually invited to become
00:20:16.58\00:20:18.71
one of the regular
organists for that church.
00:20:18.75\00:20:22.72
And I played a couple of times
00:20:22.75\00:20:25.25
to fill in for the
organist who was gone.
00:20:25.29\00:20:28.39
But I refused to
take that position, why?
00:20:28.42\00:20:31.69
Because I was not a Christian.
00:20:31.73\00:20:34.43
I did not feel
that I had anything
00:20:34.46\00:20:37.13
to really offer to worship
00:20:37.17\00:20:39.43
if I was denying the God
that was to be worshipped.
00:20:39.47\00:20:43.24
And so I turned down,
you know, that invitation.
00:20:43.27\00:20:49.11
I really find no biblical basis
whatsoever for such a request
00:20:49.14\00:20:54.58
that we bring openly
practicing sinners into church
00:20:54.62\00:20:59.65
because they're talented,
00:20:59.69\00:21:01.36
because that will be
used by the enemy of souls
00:21:01.39\00:21:05.76
to actually pull
people away from God,
00:21:05.79\00:21:08.43
because imagine
our children in church
00:21:08.46\00:21:11.40
and they see someone very gifted
00:21:11.43\00:21:13.13
and they become very
enamored with this person
00:21:13.17\00:21:16.40
that is so gifted and
talented in music or whatever,
00:21:16.44\00:21:20.41
and then they understand
00:21:20.44\00:21:21.88
that these
people are living apart
00:21:21.91\00:21:23.65
from the ways of God.
00:21:23.68\00:21:25.58
Well, if it's
okay for these people
00:21:25.61\00:21:29.15
to behave in this way
00:21:29.18\00:21:30.69
and yet they're in the church,
00:21:30.72\00:21:32.49
then maybe I can too.
00:21:32.52\00:21:34.22
And I think it
would be a stumbling block
00:21:34.26\00:21:36.86
for many people in the
church if we lead that in.
00:21:36.89\00:21:39.93
See John the Baptist
00:21:39.96\00:21:43.77
called for those who
wanted to be part of the church
00:21:43.80\00:21:46.77
to bring forth
fruit, meat for repentance.
00:21:46.80\00:21:50.31
And this request here
is not about repentance.
00:21:50.34\00:21:54.41
It's about being
allowed to participate
00:21:54.44\00:21:57.28
in the church culture
00:21:57.31\00:21:59.05
without embracing the tenets,
00:21:59.08\00:22:01.45
and the doctrines, and
the faith of that church.
00:22:01.48\00:22:04.15
That would be a big mistake.
00:22:04.19\00:22:05.52
Yeah.
00:22:05.55\00:22:06.89
So it sounds to me like
really what you're saying
00:22:06.92\00:22:09.29
is the hinge pin to
the decision has to do
00:22:09.32\00:22:14.90
with the heart of the person
who's coming into the church.
00:22:14.93\00:22:18.37
Are they there in a
submissive towards the Lord,
00:22:18.40\00:22:21.44
manner, they're humble,
00:22:21.47\00:22:23.04
willing to learn
00:22:23.07\00:22:24.47
or are they
there with their own,
00:22:24.51\00:22:26.61
you know, standards
00:22:26.64\00:22:28.24
and not willing to move on
00:22:28.28\00:22:30.65
those to walk with
the Lord and follow Him.
00:22:30.68\00:22:33.45
Am I hearing that there? Yes.
00:22:33.48\00:22:35.92
We've heard the illustration
00:22:35.95\00:22:37.49
that the church
is like a hospital.
00:22:37.52\00:22:39.82
And so we have
an open door policy
00:22:39.85\00:22:43.16
for people to come to worship.
00:22:43.19\00:22:45.29
However, membership is
something that is very sacred
00:22:45.33\00:22:48.66
because with membership
you have the right to voice.
00:22:48.70\00:22:51.93
You have the right to vote.
00:22:51.97\00:22:53.60
You have the
opportunity to hold office.
00:22:53.64\00:22:56.44
And that needs to be reserved
00:22:56.47\00:22:58.97
for those who are accepting
the Jesus as their mentor,
00:22:59.01\00:23:04.88
their master, their Lord,
00:23:04.91\00:23:07.32
and are willing to enter
the school of discipleship,
00:23:07.35\00:23:10.12
and to be transformed
into the image of Christ.
00:23:10.15\00:23:13.46
But yes, by all means,
00:23:13.49\00:23:14.82
they should be
allowed to come and worship,
00:23:14.86\00:23:16.49
but not bring in a gay agenda
00:23:16.52\00:23:20.76
that works
against the very gospel
00:23:20.80\00:23:22.63
that we're trying to share.
00:23:22.66\00:23:25.43
Right. Okay.
00:23:25.47\00:23:27.00
So number five this
last point here, it says,
00:23:27.04\00:23:29.77
"Fully integrate lesbian,
gay, bisexual, transgender,
00:23:29.80\00:23:32.67
and intersex members
of the Adventist church
00:23:32.71\00:23:36.01
into the life of
the church community."
00:23:36.04\00:23:38.11
Well, we see in history
00:23:41.18\00:23:43.39
when society fully integrated
homosexuality into the culture,
00:23:43.42\00:23:48.52
the demise of
Sodom and Gomorrah,
00:23:48.56\00:23:50.26
the demise of
Greece, the demise of Rome,
00:23:50.29\00:23:54.00
and so to fully integrate
00:23:54.03\00:23:56.87
is going to bring down
that very church culture.
00:23:56.90\00:24:02.40
And secondly,
00:24:02.44\00:24:04.01
to make such a
resolution in the name of Jesus
00:24:04.04\00:24:06.44
is to ask His
blessing upon something
00:24:06.47\00:24:09.71
which He has very
clearly condemned in His word.
00:24:09.74\00:24:14.78
So now we've looked
at these five points,
00:24:14.82\00:24:16.65
you've responded to them.
00:24:16.69\00:24:18.19
Ron, do you see our church
catering to these expectations?
00:24:18.22\00:24:21.92
Well, I see the
Christian church,
00:24:21.96\00:24:23.79
at large, in many
instances catering.
00:24:23.83\00:24:27.63
We have an example in
the Southern Baptist Church
00:24:27.66\00:24:33.60
for example, there's a headline
00:24:33.64\00:24:35.07
that I have here
from just January.
00:24:35.10\00:24:37.94
"Southern Baptist churches
start to ordain homosexuals
00:24:37.97\00:24:41.51
and perform same
sex marriage rituals."
00:24:41.54\00:24:45.91
I have talked to
people who have told me
00:24:45.95\00:24:48.48
that their churches have
split over the gay issue,
00:24:48.52\00:24:51.35
Baptist, and then Presbyterian.
00:24:51.39\00:24:54.39
Within our own denomination,
00:24:54.42\00:24:56.73
I have seen churches
that are incorporating
00:24:56.76\00:25:00.13
these requests
into their church.
00:25:00.16\00:25:04.03
And for me as a
gay person in the past,
00:25:04.07\00:25:07.34
visiting one of these
churches I was alarmed
00:25:07.37\00:25:10.11
because I was not
finding sanctuary,
00:25:10.14\00:25:12.61
I was not finding salvation,
00:25:12.64\00:25:15.24
I was finding a tolerance
00:25:15.28\00:25:18.38
of what I was rather
than a remedy for what I was.
00:25:18.41\00:25:22.72
Okay.
00:25:22.75\00:25:24.09
So with this
culture as it is now,
00:25:24.12\00:25:27.26
what do you think the church's
response really should be
00:25:27.29\00:25:29.86
towards this whole agenda
00:25:29.89\00:25:31.79
and its focus on
Christianity and the church?
00:25:31.83\00:25:35.76
Well,
remembering that God is love,
00:25:35.80\00:25:38.10
everything that He
asks, everything that He says
00:25:38.13\00:25:40.47
is as a loving heavenly Father.
00:25:40.50\00:25:42.54
And He tells us very
plainly to cry aloud,
00:25:42.57\00:25:45.31
spare not,
00:25:45.34\00:25:46.68
lift up thy voice like a trumpet
00:25:46.71\00:25:48.48
and show my people
their transgression
00:25:48.51\00:25:50.21
in the house of
Jacob their sins.
00:25:50.25\00:25:52.35
Why? Because He wants
to save us from our sins.
00:25:52.38\00:25:56.28
So it is...
00:25:56.32\00:25:59.85
We are actually counseled
to call sin by its right name
00:25:59.89\00:26:03.49
because we cannot overcome
00:26:03.53\00:26:05.79
something that we cannot define.
00:26:05.83\00:26:08.20
So it is a
loving, caring message
00:26:08.23\00:26:12.03
to call sin by its right name
00:26:12.07\00:26:15.04
and then offer the
remedy for that sin.
00:26:15.07\00:26:17.97
So as a church, we
need to be faithful
00:26:18.01\00:26:20.74
to our high calling
00:26:20.78\00:26:22.18
and not give in to
political correctness.
00:26:22.21\00:26:25.11
Amen. Amen.
00:26:25.15\00:26:26.48
So is there anything
else that you would say
00:26:26.51\00:26:29.25
to expound on that
good solid biblical guidance
00:26:29.28\00:26:32.25
for dealing with this
in a compassionate way?
00:26:32.29\00:26:35.36
Well, again the
Bible is very explicit.
00:26:35.39\00:26:38.09
Building on that
thought that God is love,
00:26:38.13\00:26:41.86
1 John 4:8,
00:26:41.90\00:26:43.43
then Jesus goes on
to say, if you love me,
00:26:43.47\00:26:47.24
then Jesus who died
for us gave His life for us
00:26:47.27\00:26:51.21
while we were yet
strangers and enemies.
00:26:51.24\00:26:53.58
"If you love me, in
return keep my commandments."
00:26:53.61\00:26:57.38
If you love me, "Thou
shall not lie with mankind,
00:26:57.41\00:27:00.52
as with the
mankind, as with womankind,
00:27:00.55\00:27:03.18
is abomination."
00:27:03.22\00:27:04.69
I like to put that in
front of the commandments.
00:27:04.72\00:27:07.29
If you love me, "Do
not commit adultery."
00:27:07.32\00:27:09.82
If you love me, "If a
man also lie with mankind,
00:27:09.86\00:27:12.16
as he lies with the woman,
00:27:12.19\00:27:13.80
both of them have
committed an abomination."
00:27:13.83\00:27:15.76
If you love me,
you won't do that.
00:27:15.80\00:27:18.13
In light of
Malachi 3:6 where he says,
00:27:18.17\00:27:21.00
"I am the Lord, I change not."
00:27:21.04\00:27:24.57
By what authority do
we understand this issue
00:27:24.61\00:27:28.18
any differently than the Bible
00:27:28.21\00:27:31.55
which is to be our
rule of faith and practice?
00:27:31.58\00:27:34.88
God is not willing
that any should perish
00:27:34.92\00:27:37.39
but that all
should come to repentance.
00:27:37.42\00:27:39.35
Amen. Amen.
00:27:39.39\00:27:40.96
Well, thank you so much
00:27:40.99\00:27:42.32
for what you've
shared with us today, Ron.
00:27:42.36\00:27:43.73
I know it's
been a blessing to me
00:27:43.76\00:27:45.13
and my prayer is
that it's been a blessing
00:27:45.16\00:27:47.06
to all of you as well.
00:27:47.10\00:27:48.43
So join us next
time on Pure Choices.
00:27:48.46\00:27:52.13