The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are cautioned that
some material may be too candid
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for younger children.
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Welcome to Pure Choices.
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I'm Michael Carducci
with Coming Out Ministries.
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And I've the opportunity
to interview Wayne Blakely
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my colleague,
and also Walt Heyer.
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Welcome guys.
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Thank you. All right.
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So what we're going
to talk about today is
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transgenderism in the church.
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And what we want
to kind of discuss
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is not only to
establish our histories,
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some of what we've experienced
in the area of transgenderism
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but also in the relationship
to how that applies to church.
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Because what we have now is
we have multiple situations,
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Wayne you and I
have experienced,
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Walt, even exponentially higher.
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A situation of how to
transition transgender
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into church culture.
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And so, Wayne, I just
want to kind of establish,
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what is your history with
transgenderism personally?
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Well my birth
mother wasn't comfortable
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with the fact that
she had a baby boy.
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She campaigned against it
while she was pregnant with me,
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and so that, when she was,
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when she did
gave birth to a boy,
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I'm sure she
was angry and upset.
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I was adopted but the
damage it's already been done.
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I realize that I
wasn't going to gain the love
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that I so desperately wanted,
and thus I become that girl,
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and I found a
sympathetic neighbor lady
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who I ended up
calling my aunty Ross.
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And she would assist in
dressing me up as a girl
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from probably the ages of four
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up until I was
thirteen years old.
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Wow. I never knew that, Wayne.
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So again, you know, here you're,
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you're born to a
mother that rejected you.
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As a matter of fact by the
time you were three years old,
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she'd broken your arm
twice in two separate occasions.
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So now here you're,
you're adopted by your aunt
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and uncle and now your
neighbor is dressing you up
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in girl clothes till
you're thirteen years old?
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Yeah. I didn't know that.
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Yeah, at twelve years old,
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I was into the Trick-or-treating
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when that would come around,
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I wanted to be Cinderella
and she dyed as she'd pink
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and I got a acrylic
horrible, set on fire,
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blonde wig and wore crown
probably and I think my parents
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wanted to
dissolve into the earth.
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Wow, it's interesting
the things you find out
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in an interview, right?
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And so for me, you know,
my gender dysphoria happened
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before I was even conscious,
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and we talk about a
defensive detachment.
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Because when I was transitioning
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from my mother to my
father realizing that
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I was male and not female.
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And my father was
either unavailable for me
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or abusive physically
and verbally and emotionally,
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and so I totally, before I
was even conscious rejected
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his masculinity.
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The only example
left for me was my mom,
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so she was soft,
she spoke softly.
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I wanted to
imitate her and mimic her.
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And so for me,
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I started wanting to be a
girl thinking that I was a girl
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and that's where my
transgender confusion
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happened for me.
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Walt, briefly
what was your history?
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Well, I started
at the age of four
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cross-dressing with
the help of my grandmother,
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so I had the same
kind of experience,
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even though my
grandmother stop dressing me,
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you know, when
I was about seven.
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I still continue to
secretly cross dress.
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I hid clothes in the
garage and another places,
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so that I could
continue cross-dressing
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and frankly didn't
stop until I was redeemed
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and restored by Christ.
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Right, so many parallels
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and yet some real
interesting differences.
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You know, for,
Wayne, how old were you
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when the transgenderism
dissipated for you?
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Well, it was
interesting, you know,
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I'd been
standing in the bathroom
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and punching myself on
the face and begging God.
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I was demanding that
he had made a mistake
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and yet when I entered into
gay culture at the age of 18.
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I found that men in gay culture
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were more appreciative of
masculinity than femininity.
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And so I realized that,
well, may be it is that I'm okay
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as a guy, and so then I
started wearing the jeans
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and the cowboy
boots and the plaid shirts
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and the idea of
wanting to become a girl
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really went away
because I began to feel
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more comfortable
in my masculinity.
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And my situation
was very similar.
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The difference though was
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you received a
rejection form your mother.
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I rejected my
father and yet we both had
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the same kind of history.
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And then when I was 20 years old
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and came out into a gay culture,
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I also realized
that, if I butched it up
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a little bit more
and worked out in a gym
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that I could get the attention
from men that I desired.
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Even though that was in an
area of brokenness on its own.
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The gender dysphoria
really dissipated from me
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and I was very
comfortable with my male parts,
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because now I realize how
to get the attention of men.
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So, Walt, you took a
very different direction
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and even though, you
were never homosexual,
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when did the gender
dysphoria for you dissipate?
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Well, it didn't
dissipate until many, many years
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after I'd undergone
surgery and gone to therapy.
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So I was, you know,
started at the age of four,
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so it didn't really dissipate
until I was 50 years old.
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And so it took many years.
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So now we have an
issue where not only
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do have
transgenderism, you know,
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in our phases on the
media with television
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and Bruce Jenner
as Caitlyn Jenner,
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but now we have situations
where we find in ministry
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and especially you,
Walt, with your ministry
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that now we have the
church trying to find compassion
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for these
people, people like us.
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And also how is it
that you could bring them
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into church
culture without sacrificing
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the protection of the
church members as well.
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It's a very real problem so.
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What I wanted to
talk about little bit is,
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some of the issues that we have.
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One of the
questions that was brought up
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at our panel that we had was,
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you have a 13 year
boy who is transgenderd
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and he wants to go to
summer camp, you know,
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to a Christian summer camp.
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And so, what side of
the camp do you put him on.
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And one of the
questions that we talked about
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was the fact that
this is a little boy,
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that's 13 years
old, that his parents
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are obviously supporting that,
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if he is coming
as a transgender,
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so he has a
brightly painted pink room
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and he's got a
closet full of dresses.
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You can't insist
that he dress as a boy
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and put him on the boy side.
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And then I think,
well, you can't put him
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on the girl side either
because that wouldn't be fair
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to the girls to expose
this young boy, you know,
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to male genitalia
before they're ready for it.
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And then, if you
put him on the boy side
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as a boy then, you need
to protect the transgender
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also from being taunted
and teased by the other kids.
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So we have this
dilemma that, quite frankly
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we just couldn't
even answer that question.
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Walt or Wayne, if you
have any thoughts on that?
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Yeah, I think one of
the things is interesting
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when we're talking about
this, we're talking about
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what happens to
the other people,
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but we're not
talking about what happens
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to the transgender.
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So here we go,
we're taking a transgender
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and we're putting
him in environments
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we all would agree
are going to be difficult.
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If you put the
guy with the girls,
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it's going to be difficult.
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If you put him with the boys,
it's going to be difficult,
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so it seems to me like,
if we look at transgender
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as a behavior and
not as an identity
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because that's how I
see it and we understand
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that they're damaged.
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You know, we're sitting here,
we all had damage in our life.
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We got there through damage.
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And if we
understand the cross-dressing
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is actually an
abuse in of itself.
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So we have...
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Talk about that for just
a moment for our viewers.
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Right.
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Cross-dressing causes
emotional, psychological
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and psychiatric
damage, because you're telling
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that person that they're not
who they are, that's damaging,
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and it causes depression,
it causes hurt, it causes pain.
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So if we look at this individual
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that's we're discussing about
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what part of the
camp to put him in.
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It would seem to me like,
psychologically the best thing
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is not to place
him in camp at all.
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The kid should stay home.
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Now, you know, caring
about them is also being honest
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with them and loving on them...
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Wait, say that again
'cause that's beautiful.
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Caring for them is being honest
with them and honesty means
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that you have to
confront people with issues
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that are not appropriate.
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For a boy to
act out being a girl
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and that's just acting out.
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And if we
understand, the compassion comes
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from understanding, they're
not doing it deliberately.
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They're doing it
because something happened,
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because there is some
unfortunate event whether
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it's a trauma or
loss or whatever it is,
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whether it's sexual abuse.
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I found many of the transgenders
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have been
sexually abused like I was.
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So if we look at
this and understand that
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they've had some
trauma or event in their life
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then withholding them from
camp is not really abusing them
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or denying them, it's
actually helping them not get
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into a situation, that's going
to make their gender dysphoria
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and their life more difficult.
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So holding them
back is better for them
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than putting him
in an environment
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that's not going
to be good for them.
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All right, so I think
it's important to show that
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in helping the person
with transgender ideation.
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That it's not
beneficial to encourage them
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to identify as the opposite sex.
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Absolutely,
because all you're doing
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is enabling them
to use this behavior
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to continue
dealing with the depression
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and other issues,
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and not dealing
with the core issue of--
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I always like to sit down
with transgenders and say,
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tell me about what
happened, when did this start?
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Because we can sit here
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and we can all
identify with when it started.
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Would we take the time?
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Would the pastor of the
church sit down long enough,
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to sit down and
evaluate, when did this happen?
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When did you
first see this occur?
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Was it, you know, did
somebody die in the family?
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Where you sexually
abused? Was there a loss?
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I have found 100
percent of the time,
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if we take the time
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and loving, care and
compassion for that child.
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We can get the massage
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of why they're
acting out as a transgender
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when in fact,
they were badly abused.
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Yeah, Wayne?
00:10:51.91\00:10:54.08
So, yeah, that
opens up two things
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and that it is
now a multiple level.
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Now it's the transgender
and it's the parents,
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and so you might
in some situations
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get permission to
speak to the transgender.
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But how do you
get to the parents
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that are now
endorsing the behavior,
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they just want them to
be happy at what level,
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and the pastor
doesn't seem to be educated,
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and so they're not
exactly sure about what to do.
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So we understand it,
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how can we go about
implementing the knowledge
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and the information that
would be so helpful to them.
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Well, a lot of parents
are going to recheck the idea,
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you know, if
you're trying to tell them
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that their kid has
something going wrong with him,
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that they're
depressed or whatever.
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Parents are not necessarily
going to embrace that idea
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because it may have
a reflection on them.
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In fact, sometimes it
doesn't come in the home.
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Maybe it was a
neighborhood child,
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maybe it was
some other event so.
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You know, we don't
have to point to the parents
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and say it was
the parents fault.
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We don't really
know at this point.
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So I think it's important
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when we're dealing with
transgenders in the church
00:11:59.21\00:12:01.58
to understand that
we may not have success.
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We may not be able
to convince the parents
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that this is appropriate
and there may be conflict.
00:12:06.25\00:12:09.09
This is a very
troubling and difficult issue.
00:12:09.12\00:12:12.06
If we're looking to try
to just appease everybody,
00:12:12.09\00:12:16.13
we're going to end up
actually damaging the child
00:12:16.16\00:12:19.47
and not coming
to a good solution.
00:12:19.50\00:12:21.37
So I think if we can
drive home the point,
00:12:21.40\00:12:24.17
that we have somebody
who really needs some care,
00:12:24.21\00:12:27.14
some psychological care
00:12:27.18\00:12:28.84
and not place
them in environments
00:12:28.88\00:12:31.65
that are going to harm them,
00:12:31.68\00:12:33.01
we're going to be better off,
00:12:33.05\00:12:34.48
but don't expect the
parents to go along with it.
00:12:34.52\00:12:36.95
Right. Okay.
00:12:36.99\00:12:38.32
So, it brings up a
question in my mind
00:12:38.35\00:12:40.36
and so there was a situation
00:12:40.39\00:12:43.26
where there was a transgendered
male to female at this church.
00:12:43.29\00:12:47.03
And I thought that
because I come from gay culture,
00:12:47.06\00:12:49.23
I'd seen men in dresses,
00:12:49.26\00:12:50.60
I'd seen all kinds of
different gender confusion.
00:12:50.63\00:12:53.00
I thought, oh,
this is a no-brainer.
00:12:53.03\00:12:54.94
But when I was actually
confronted with this person,
00:12:54.97\00:12:57.54
I'm telling you, I felt
like I was at a total loss,
00:12:57.57\00:12:59.84
and here I am in ministry,
00:12:59.87\00:13:01.81
so one of the things
that I find so confusing is,
00:13:01.84\00:13:06.55
do I approach this person
as a gender they prefer to be,
00:13:06.58\00:13:09.78
do I approach him as
a gender that they are
00:13:09.82\00:13:12.15
without being disrespectful.
00:13:12.19\00:13:13.76
How can I uphold
the Christian standard
00:13:13.79\00:13:17.29
and God's plea for them
00:13:17.33\00:13:18.79
to claim who He
created them to be,
00:13:18.83\00:13:21.36
and at the same
time not disrespect them
00:13:21.40\00:13:23.26
or build a wall of
defense against them.
00:13:23.30\00:13:26.00
So can we talk
about that for a moment?
00:13:26.03\00:13:28.60
Sure.
00:13:28.64\00:13:29.97
Yeah, I think in my
particular position,
00:13:30.01\00:13:32.34
what I do is I
use the word neutral.
00:13:32.37\00:13:35.74
And so you don't
push either side,
00:13:35.78\00:13:37.71
because you know
if you few push them,
00:13:37.75\00:13:39.31
if they're man
00:13:39.35\00:13:40.68
and you're trying to
overemphasize their manhood,
00:13:40.72\00:13:43.12
you're going to offend them.
00:13:43.15\00:13:44.49
And if you're too much going
toward the feminism side of it,
00:13:44.52\00:13:49.22
you're actually enabling them
00:13:49.26\00:13:51.36
to enhance this
vision of who they're--
00:13:51.39\00:13:54.20
And affirming.
Okay. And affirming them.
00:13:54.23\00:13:56.26
And so, if you stay
neutral and not get in that zone
00:13:56.30\00:13:58.93
and just stay with the issues
00:13:58.97\00:14:00.64
that you're
talking to them about
00:14:00.67\00:14:02.57
and stay focused on that.
00:14:02.60\00:14:03.94
I don't use gender names.
00:14:03.97\00:14:07.08
I just use their last name
or I avoid them all together.
00:14:07.11\00:14:10.61
Okay, so how would
that look, Mr. Smith?
00:14:10.65\00:14:13.28
Well, I can talk
to you all day long
00:14:13.31\00:14:14.98
and never use a male identity
or I never use your first name,
00:14:15.02\00:14:19.59
and still have good conversation
00:14:19.62\00:14:21.59
and still get
information from you
00:14:21.62\00:14:23.22
without using the pronouns.
00:14:23.26\00:14:25.56
Okay. Wayne?
00:14:25.59\00:14:29.10
Yeah, I'm looking
at that from a church--
00:14:29.13\00:14:33.74
In a church environment
00:14:33.77\00:14:35.64
because we're having
that so much more today
00:14:35.67\00:14:38.34
with the whole idea
of love and acceptance.
00:14:38.37\00:14:41.24
We're doing this with the LGBT
00:14:41.28\00:14:44.31
which of course the
transgender is involved
00:14:44.35\00:14:47.72
and so leadership
00:14:47.75\00:14:49.72
and pastors are
beginning to affirm people.
00:14:49.75\00:14:53.46
Well, how do we hold that?
00:14:53.49\00:14:54.82
I think you have
some of the information
00:14:54.86\00:14:56.69
about some Bible references
and helpfulness on this topic.
00:14:56.73\00:15:02.36
We recently have somebody
00:15:02.40\00:15:04.27
who has been
ordained as a transgenderd
00:15:04.30\00:15:07.24
elder in the church today.
00:15:07.27\00:15:09.80
Well, you know, I look at this,
00:15:09.84\00:15:12.21
I look at things
very simply to begin with
00:15:12.24\00:15:14.54
because I'm a simple person,
00:15:14.58\00:15:15.98
and it's easier to
understand in a simple way.
00:15:16.01\00:15:19.21
And if someone who
claims to be transgender
00:15:19.25\00:15:22.82
or who
identifies he's transgender
00:15:22.85\00:15:24.85
or who's
behaving as a transgender
00:15:24.89\00:15:28.22
wants to have the leadership
00:15:28.26\00:15:30.16
or being in a
leadership role in the church.
00:15:30.19\00:15:32.19
I think it's totally appropriate
00:15:32.23\00:15:34.00
to not allow them to be
in leadership in the church.
00:15:34.03\00:15:36.10
Okay.
00:15:36.13\00:15:37.47
Because, again we
go back to the fact
00:15:37.50\00:15:39.80
that God made them
who they were born as.
00:15:39.83\00:15:43.41
And so, if we're not doing
what my grandmother didn't do
00:15:43.44\00:15:46.98
and supporting
that birth gender.
00:15:47.01\00:15:49.04
We're actually going
against the God's will,
00:15:49.08\00:15:50.85
aren't we?
00:15:50.88\00:15:52.21
And so, if a
person is acting out
00:15:52.25\00:15:55.58
this transgender behavior,
00:15:55.62\00:15:57.09
they're actually
being defiant toward God.
00:15:57.12\00:16:01.26
So if we look at this
from a defiant standpoint
00:16:01.29\00:16:04.69
and we can understand that,
00:16:04.73\00:16:07.26
you know, not being
uncompassionate about it,
00:16:07.30\00:16:10.27
they're defiant
because they're injured.
00:16:10.30\00:16:12.43
They're hurting,
they have deep hurts.
00:16:12.47\00:16:15.10
We need to get to the deep hurt
00:16:15.14\00:16:17.27
for them to be able to come
out and be who they really are.
00:16:17.31\00:16:20.91
Right now they're dealing,
00:16:20.94\00:16:22.48
they're showing a
different identity
00:16:22.51\00:16:24.41
as a way to
cope with their hurt.
00:16:24.45\00:16:27.15
All right, so the
analogy that I see is that,
00:16:27.18\00:16:30.85
here we have a
wound, a deep wound.
00:16:30.89\00:16:32.35
Right.
00:16:32.39\00:16:33.72
And so what's happen is
that wound is healed over,
00:16:33.76\00:16:35.36
may be that's
the transgender issue
00:16:35.39\00:16:37.89
that, you know, I
feel like I'm a female
00:16:37.93\00:16:39.49
trapped in a male body.
00:16:39.53\00:16:40.86
So the compassionate a
part of the church is like,
00:16:40.90\00:16:44.57
that's been promoted now,
00:16:44.60\00:16:45.93
it's just you
just leave that wound,
00:16:45.97\00:16:47.67
infected
underneath that's healed over
00:16:47.70\00:16:49.84
and it affects the blood,
00:16:49.87\00:16:51.21
the heart, the
mind and all that.
00:16:51.24\00:16:53.21
And so, you can refer to them
00:16:53.24\00:16:55.28
as the sex that
they desire to be.
00:16:55.31\00:16:57.35
But you haven't
addressed the real issue
00:16:57.38\00:16:59.51
and a real
compassionate pastor or church,
00:16:59.55\00:17:02.98
what they're going to do
00:17:03.02\00:17:04.35
is they're going to
engage with this person.
00:17:04.39\00:17:06.02
They're going to
connect with them,
00:17:06.05\00:17:08.32
and then they're going
to go through the process
00:17:08.36\00:17:09.92
of opening up that scar
and dealing with the infection
00:17:09.96\00:17:13.70
because the infection
isn't going to go away
00:17:13.73\00:17:15.73
by just giving you the name
or the gender that you desire,
00:17:15.76\00:17:19.53
instead it's a
process, a committed process
00:17:19.57\00:17:22.24
of opening that up and
cleaning up that infection,
00:17:22.27\00:17:24.47
and then allowing it to
heal from the inside out.
00:17:24.51\00:17:27.31
Isn't that right?
That is beautiful.
00:17:27.34\00:17:29.31
I couldn't have said it better,
but that's exactly right.
00:17:29.34\00:17:32.21
You know, I think if we
can capture that in the church
00:17:32.25\00:17:35.32
and understand that
they are deeply hurt.
00:17:35.35\00:17:37.89
They're wounded
and they need our love,
00:17:37.92\00:17:41.39
but they also
need the love of truth.
00:17:41.42\00:17:44.03
And I don't think enabling
people to act out in a behavior
00:17:44.06\00:17:48.76
that's come out of some
deep hurt is appropriate
00:17:48.80\00:17:52.43
or helping them in
any way shape or form,
00:17:52.47\00:17:55.90
because what we see today
00:17:55.94\00:17:58.01
is we know the
transgender population,
00:17:58.04\00:18:00.11
because they're not getting help
00:18:00.14\00:18:02.01
for that deep wound.
00:18:02.04\00:18:03.41
They're not
seeing those things heal
00:18:03.45\00:18:05.85
that are deep down inside.
00:18:05.88\00:18:07.62
We see this
population attempting suicide
00:18:07.65\00:18:10.22
at a rate of 40% or more.
00:18:10.25\00:18:12.69
So if you look at
attempted suicides
00:18:12.72\00:18:16.22
and realize that people
who are happy with themselves
00:18:16.26\00:18:19.89
and are enjoying
life and are living
00:18:19.93\00:18:22.53
a psychologically well
established healthy life.
00:18:22.56\00:18:26.27
They don't
attempt suicide, do they?
00:18:26.30\00:18:27.80
No.
00:18:27.84\00:18:29.17
So we must have
a population then
00:18:29.20\00:18:32.61
of people who are deeply hurt
00:18:32.64\00:18:34.54
and are not
getting the psychological
00:18:34.58\00:18:37.01
and psychiatric help they need
to avoid committing suicide.
00:18:37.05\00:18:40.25
And I think it's
fair to know that,
00:18:40.28\00:18:43.12
you come from not a
position of judgment
00:18:43.15\00:18:45.79
or looking at someone.
00:18:45.82\00:18:47.16
You come from
that example yourself,
00:18:47.19\00:18:48.82
you've come from that experience
00:18:48.86\00:18:50.59
and so it isn't like,
00:18:50.63\00:18:52.16
we're sitting
loathing over transgenders
00:18:52.19\00:18:54.46
and telling them
what their problem is.
00:18:54.50\00:18:56.23
We're finding compassion to say,
00:18:56.26\00:18:58.37
listen, I was with you
00:18:58.40\00:18:59.97
and this is what I
struggled with too.
00:19:00.00\00:19:01.77
I identify with you
but this is not the answer.
00:19:01.80\00:19:04.97
Isn't that right?
Wayne, you wanted to share.
00:19:05.01\00:19:06.98
Yeah, because of the acceptance
of the damaged behavior
00:19:07.01\00:19:10.75
and thinking that
we're showing love,
00:19:10.78\00:19:13.88
now we're damaging
the entire church body.
00:19:13.92\00:19:16.95
And by, in my church
00:19:16.99\00:19:18.35
we accommodated a
repentant transgender who--
00:19:18.39\00:19:23.32
it's interesting
that we don't look at
00:19:23.36\00:19:25.36
what that repentance looks like.
00:19:25.39\00:19:27.16
What would be the
behavior modification
00:19:27.20\00:19:29.20
of a transgendered,
00:19:29.23\00:19:30.57
I mean, of a
repentant transgender?
00:19:30.60\00:19:33.44
Because in this large church,
00:19:33.47\00:19:35.80
we've opened the door
to the women's restroom,
00:19:35.84\00:19:38.71
and now we pose
00:19:38.74\00:19:40.08
a very contrasting acceptance
00:19:40.11\00:19:45.91
or, you know,
consideration about the fact
00:19:45.95\00:19:50.42
that now I'm standing
in the women's restroom
00:19:50.45\00:19:52.65
with multiple styles
in front of young children
00:19:52.69\00:19:55.96
and usually
it's younger children
00:19:55.99\00:19:58.49
and older ladies
that are shocked,
00:19:58.53\00:20:01.00
because the
middle-aged people are like,
00:20:01.03\00:20:03.57
they're just out in society,
00:20:03.60\00:20:05.83
they're being
thrown all kinds of things,
00:20:05.87\00:20:08.17
it's not a shocking to them.
00:20:08.20\00:20:09.87
In church environments,
the pastor is like,
00:20:09.90\00:20:12.97
well, I don't know, we
just need to show love here,
00:20:13.01\00:20:16.21
and then the church board
takes the lead from the pastor,
00:20:16.24\00:20:20.22
it gets very confusing.
00:20:20.25\00:20:22.18
What do you do in situations
00:20:22.22\00:20:24.42
about bringing some
sense of redemptive look
00:20:24.45\00:20:28.39
to this situation?
00:20:28.42\00:20:29.76
Well, again, I always go back
00:20:29.79\00:20:31.13
and look at the
other side, you know.
00:20:31.16\00:20:32.86
What about the
women in a bathroom,
00:20:32.89\00:20:34.60
the church's job is
to protect them and--
00:20:34.63\00:20:37.60
Well, that's to
establish the fact
00:20:37.63\00:20:38.97
that if the law
stands the way it is,
00:20:39.00\00:20:41.40
that a man who
hasn't had any surgery
00:20:41.44\00:20:44.41
that's just wearing a dress,
00:20:44.44\00:20:45.77
he could even have a
mustache and a beard,
00:20:45.81\00:20:47.34
he's allowed to use
a women's rest room.
00:20:47.38\00:20:50.68
You can be called a transgender
and in the State of Florida,
00:20:50.71\00:20:53.31
you can have your
birth certificate changed
00:20:53.35\00:20:55.15
even though you never have
had any of the surgery done.
00:20:55.18\00:20:57.75
So now you have
people men, physical men
00:20:57.79\00:21:01.09
that are coming into a bathroom,
00:21:01.12\00:21:02.52
into a women's
bathroom at church,
00:21:02.56\00:21:04.73
and when you've
got small children
00:21:04.76\00:21:06.13
and that kind of thing so,
00:21:06.16\00:21:08.13
who protects the small child
00:21:08.16\00:21:09.53
from being
exposed to male genitalia,
00:21:09.56\00:21:11.77
a small female child
00:21:11.80\00:21:13.17
before she is ready to see that.
00:21:13.20\00:21:15.80
Well, unfortunately
that's a big issue, isn't it?
00:21:15.84\00:21:18.71
And so, this is why in my mind,
00:21:18.74\00:21:21.41
I know this is sort of
a overall simple solution
00:21:21.44\00:21:24.15
but, you know, I look
to bathrooms in the future
00:21:24.18\00:21:26.75
to be, just for the individuals
in that community bathrooms
00:21:26.78\00:21:30.52
where you've
been invaded by people
00:21:30.55\00:21:32.62
who are doing
this kind of behavior,
00:21:32.65\00:21:34.26
so you'd have a door,
you can come in and lock
00:21:34.29\00:21:36.62
and you're in
there with your family
00:21:36.66\00:21:38.09
and it's just a small bathroom
that no one else can access.
00:21:38.13\00:21:41.33
And that may be the
bathroom of the future
00:21:41.36\00:21:44.00
to protect young
people, protect women,
00:21:44.03\00:21:47.40
we've already seen one
person go into a bathroom
00:21:47.44\00:21:50.87
in another state in this country
00:21:50.91\00:21:52.47
that did molest
somebody in and hurt them badly.
00:21:52.51\00:21:55.71
So we know that there
are predators out there,
00:21:55.74\00:21:58.61
who have a
mindset to do something,
00:21:58.65\00:22:01.72
but generally speaking
00:22:01.75\00:22:03.08
those who are not
all the transgenders,
00:22:03.12\00:22:04.69
but they do cause
people great deal of trauma
00:22:04.72\00:22:09.42
and difficulty when
they enter a bathroom
00:22:09.46\00:22:11.43
and they look like a man.
00:22:11.46\00:22:12.79
And I don't think
00:22:12.83\00:22:14.16
they should be allowed
to go in there in my view.
00:22:14.20\00:22:16.56
Well, I think
it bears repeating.
00:22:16.60\00:22:17.93
We've done an earlier broadcast
00:22:17.97\00:22:20.07
so, Walt, would you tell us
what your experience was like,
00:22:20.10\00:22:23.20
when you came
into church culture
00:22:23.24\00:22:25.01
as a female, as Laura,
00:22:25.04\00:22:27.01
what the response
from the church was
00:22:27.04\00:22:28.74
because I think
that was powerful.
00:22:28.78\00:22:30.11
Yeah, the very first
time I went in as Laura
00:22:30.15\00:22:32.81
and my counselor at the time
had called the church pastor
00:22:32.85\00:22:37.82
and asked if it was okay
that I went to that church
00:22:37.85\00:22:40.62
because he knew the pastor,
00:22:40.66\00:22:41.99
he is a friend
of his and he said,
00:22:42.02\00:22:43.36
I have Laura, a
transgender, would it be okay,
00:22:43.39\00:22:45.63
he struggled to get in a church
and he said, sure bring him on.
00:22:45.66\00:22:48.60
So I came, I signed in
as Laura in the guestbook,
00:22:48.63\00:22:53.50
and all these
ladies came around me
00:22:53.54\00:22:55.40
because I was a new
comer, we all sat together,
00:22:55.44\00:22:57.51
and one of them
was the pastor's wife,
00:22:57.54\00:22:59.04
we had a great exchange
00:22:59.07\00:23:01.34
and his wife begin
to talk to me a lot.
00:23:01.38\00:23:04.25
She liked talking
to me, and she said,
00:23:04.28\00:23:06.75
well, we have a teas
and coffees and, you know,
00:23:06.78\00:23:09.18
she was sort of
encouraging me to get involved.
00:23:09.22\00:23:12.42
And so, I went
outside after church
00:23:12.45\00:23:14.79
and had little
coffee and went home,
00:23:14.82\00:23:16.19
and I though it
was like outstanding
00:23:16.22\00:23:18.13
because the pastor's wife now
00:23:18.16\00:23:20.36
is really embracing me
into the church community.
00:23:20.40\00:23:23.63
Well, that afternoon
later on I saw a car pull up
00:23:23.67\00:23:27.67
and the door open and I
went, there is a pastor,
00:23:27.70\00:23:30.21
the guy who gave the massage
on Sunday is coming to see me,
00:23:30.24\00:23:33.24
this is got to be great.
00:23:33.27\00:23:34.84
He knocked down the
door, I opened up the door
00:23:34.88\00:23:36.85
and I said, hello, and
he walked inside and says,
00:23:36.88\00:23:39.41
we don't want your
kind in our church,
00:23:39.45\00:23:41.78
and I looked at him
and I said, oh that's good,
00:23:41.82\00:23:44.19
what kind do you want?
00:23:44.22\00:23:47.39
What did he
said? What did he said?
00:23:47.42\00:23:48.76
He said nothing and left
and turned around walked away,
00:23:48.79\00:23:51.53
but to me that
really proved to me
00:23:51.56\00:23:54.46
about the difficulty
that transgenders have
00:23:54.50\00:23:57.67
and being able to get, you know,
00:23:57.70\00:24:00.44
inside the
church and be accepted.
00:24:00.47\00:24:02.44
Even though he
knew I was showing up.
00:24:02.47\00:24:04.21
I think his
wife's acceptance of me
00:24:04.24\00:24:07.51
and wanting to
expand that acceptance out
00:24:07.54\00:24:09.68
within the church
begin to trouble him so much.
00:24:09.71\00:24:12.08
He wasn't going to
allow it to happen.
00:24:12.11\00:24:13.85
So, Walt, now we
have this situation
00:24:13.88\00:24:16.25
where we have people
that are actually saying,
00:24:16.28\00:24:18.65
oh it's no problem,
come on in as you are,
00:24:18.69\00:24:20.89
we'll call you
whatever sex you desired to be,
00:24:20.92\00:24:23.16
and then the other
extreme, that's not beneficial,
00:24:23.19\00:24:26.03
and then you
have the other extreme
00:24:26.06\00:24:27.40
of total rejection.
00:24:27.43\00:24:29.00
This I think is much
more prevalent in Christianity
00:24:29.03\00:24:32.13
because of a misunderstanding
00:24:32.17\00:24:33.54
or the fact that
this is so distasteful,
00:24:33.57\00:24:36.81
just give them what they want,
00:24:36.84\00:24:38.17
so that I don't
have to be involved.
00:24:38.21\00:24:39.67
Isn't that kind of
00:24:39.71\00:24:41.04
what you were
referring to at one point?
00:24:41.08\00:24:42.44
Yeah, and I think it's important
00:24:42.48\00:24:43.81
to understand
it the distinction.
00:24:43.85\00:24:45.68
I had gone through surgery,
I had a new birth certificate,
00:24:45.71\00:24:48.62
all my identity was female.
00:24:48.65\00:24:50.39
I was a female in
every way shape or form.
00:24:50.42\00:24:53.46
So I was not, you
know, standing there as a man
00:24:53.49\00:24:56.22
claming to be a female
00:24:56.26\00:24:57.86
and being
accepted by the church.
00:24:57.89\00:24:59.46
I was accepted because
00:24:59.49\00:25:01.06
I'd already gone
through the surgery
00:25:01.10\00:25:02.46
and had everything
put together, you say.
00:25:02.50\00:25:06.13
And so, I was there
actually, isn't it interesting
00:25:06.17\00:25:09.37
that a transgenders
even going to church
00:25:09.40\00:25:11.64
and seeking out the Lord,
some one should get a clue,
00:25:11.67\00:25:15.21
you know, that
they're for a reason.
00:25:15.24\00:25:16.71
Yeah.
00:25:16.75\00:25:18.08
And so you response,
well, what kind do you want
00:25:18.11\00:25:19.45
in your church, I
think was a perfect response
00:25:19.48\00:25:22.22
to challenge the pastor's,
you know, dismissal of you,
00:25:22.25\00:25:25.32
and the fact that you are
still a soul for the kingdom.
00:25:25.35\00:25:28.09
All right and so
another question that I have is,
00:25:28.12\00:25:30.93
you know, what
should the position be
00:25:30.96\00:25:34.20
to accept
transgenders into church culture
00:25:34.23\00:25:36.93
because we're going to
see that more as time goes on.
00:25:36.97\00:25:39.90
Well, it's going to be
different for every church,
00:25:39.93\00:25:41.77
there's no question about that.
00:25:41.80\00:25:43.30
Every leadership is going
to see this issue differently
00:25:43.34\00:25:45.94
depending on their
leadership position,
00:25:45.97\00:25:48.94
but I think it's
important for people
00:25:48.98\00:25:51.28
and I've always suggested
00:25:51.31\00:25:52.65
that people sit down
with that transgender,
00:25:52.68\00:25:54.48
don't just allow them in.
00:25:54.52\00:25:56.48
Somebody has in the
church has to become a mentor.
00:25:56.52\00:25:59.92
And actually be with that person
00:25:59.95\00:26:02.42
and learn about their life,
00:26:02.46\00:26:03.83
take them to
coffee, spend time with them
00:26:03.86\00:26:07.06
to begin to understand
how they got that way,
00:26:07.10\00:26:09.63
where they're coming from.
00:26:09.66\00:26:11.23
The importance as we know
in building a relationship
00:26:11.27\00:26:15.57
with Jesus Christ,
we get healed overtime,
00:26:15.60\00:26:18.07
it doesn't happen
in a lightning bolt,
00:26:18.11\00:26:20.24
you know, so if
we're going to learn
00:26:20.28\00:26:22.24
about who the transgender is
and what he's struggling with,
00:26:22.28\00:26:25.15
we're going to have
to spend in relationship
00:26:25.18\00:26:28.02
with that transgender.
00:26:28.05\00:26:29.75
I would be very concerned
00:26:29.78\00:26:32.59
about allowing
them a great access
00:26:32.62\00:26:34.79
if they haven't had surgery
00:26:34.82\00:26:36.19
and they haven't
had all the trappings
00:26:36.22\00:26:38.93
where they can
identify legally as a female,
00:26:38.96\00:26:42.16
which is going to be
more and more of those
00:26:42.20\00:26:43.93
who just come in and say,
00:26:43.97\00:26:45.30
I'm a female and
they're gonna look like a man,
00:26:45.33\00:26:46.94
and I think it's important
00:26:46.97\00:26:48.84
for the church
to really get a grip
00:26:48.87\00:26:50.61
on spending time
with these people,
00:26:50.64\00:26:52.57
and they may need to set
aside a small group of mentors
00:26:52.61\00:26:56.31
who deal with it and
just spend time with them
00:26:56.34\00:26:59.55
who have a good grasp
of how to deal with it
00:26:59.58\00:27:02.08
and the leadership
then can get together
00:27:02.12\00:27:04.32
and decide as a church,
00:27:04.35\00:27:06.42
how do we want
to deal with this,
00:27:06.45\00:27:07.79
do we want, you know,
00:27:07.82\00:27:09.16
whatever it is to deal with that
00:27:09.19\00:27:11.09
and put him in a small group,
I think it's good for them
00:27:11.13\00:27:13.56
to be in a
small groups in church
00:27:13.60\00:27:15.53
to be loved on and
cared for and prayed about
00:27:15.56\00:27:18.23
and the church I went into,
they started a prayer letter
00:27:18.27\00:27:22.24
and allowed me to
write out a prayer letter
00:27:22.27\00:27:24.14
and talk about the struggles
that was having in the church.
00:27:24.17\00:27:26.57
So then it helped
00:27:26.61\00:27:27.94
and eventually
that built to like
00:27:27.98\00:27:29.34
35 people in the church
00:27:29.38\00:27:30.81
they was reading
that prayer letter
00:27:30.85\00:27:32.68
and so they knew
what was going on
00:27:32.71\00:27:34.85
and then they could get
together with the elders
00:27:34.88\00:27:37.22
and talk about how to heal that.
00:27:37.25\00:27:38.82
Right so this is a process,
00:27:38.85\00:27:41.02
we're going to need education
00:27:41.06\00:27:42.42
in our pastors in the leadership
00:27:42.46\00:27:43.99
and they're going to
have to really go much deeper
00:27:44.03\00:27:46.23
than what we have time for.
00:27:46.26\00:27:48.20
We want to thank you
again, Walt and Wayne,
00:27:48.23\00:27:50.70
for participating
today on our program.
00:27:50.73\00:27:53.44
Hope you'll
come back and join us
00:27:53.47\00:27:54.80
on Pure Choices again.
00:27:54.84\00:27:56.40
Thank you, guys.
00:27:56.44\00:27:57.77