The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
00:00:01.36\00:00:03.73
Parents are
cautioned that some material
00:00:03.77\00:00:05.57
may be too candid
for younger children.
00:00:05.60\00:00:07.84
Welcome to Pure Choices.
00:00:40.37\00:00:41.84
My name is Michael Carducci,
and I'm Coming Out Ministries.
00:00:41.87\00:00:44.77
And today, we're going to
be interviewing Walt Heyer.
00:00:44.81\00:00:47.84
Welcome, Walt. Yeah,
thanks for having me on.
00:00:47.88\00:00:51.11
I'm really excited about
the fact that you're here
00:00:51.15\00:00:53.62
and that we get to
have this dialogue.
00:00:53.65\00:00:55.65
I remember hearing about
you and reading your articles
00:00:55.68\00:00:59.52
before I actually
spoke with you one time
00:00:59.55\00:01:01.46
when we did a
telephone interview
00:01:01.49\00:01:03.29
with Raymond King.
00:01:03.32\00:01:05.29
And from that moment on,
00:01:05.33\00:01:06.66
you have given
me so many insights
00:01:06.70\00:01:08.26
that have helped
me even understand
00:01:08.30\00:01:10.17
some of my own journey,
00:01:10.20\00:01:12.10
not to mention the
fact that now transgenderism
00:01:12.13\00:01:14.80
is at such a height
with the Caitlyn Jenner issue
00:01:14.84\00:01:18.71
and the story.
00:01:18.74\00:01:20.08
So really, we just have so much
that we want to unpack today.
00:01:20.11\00:01:22.81
Thank you for coming. Sure.
00:01:22.84\00:01:24.18
Yeah, I'm happy to
be here. Great, great.
00:01:24.21\00:01:25.81
So well, let's get right to it.
00:01:25.85\00:01:27.38
Let's start, if you would,
00:01:27.42\00:01:28.92
just by giving me
some of the history
00:01:28.95\00:01:30.75
of what you came from,
00:01:30.79\00:01:32.12
like how this all began for you.
00:01:32.15\00:01:33.49
Yeah, you know,
it's interesting, today,
00:01:33.52\00:01:35.56
there are so many stories
about kids being transgender.
00:01:35.59\00:01:40.63
And I was a transgender
kid at the age of four.
00:01:40.66\00:01:44.33
And my grandmother
was babysitting me,
00:01:44.37\00:01:47.40
and for whatever reason,
00:01:47.44\00:01:48.77
I don't know if I encouraged her
00:01:48.80\00:01:50.17
or if it was her thing,
at four years old, who knows?
00:01:50.21\00:01:54.04
But the fact is she seemed
to enjoy cross-dressing me,
00:01:54.08\00:01:57.88
I enjoyed her cross-dressing me.
00:01:57.91\00:02:00.32
So we had this mutual
thing, but it was a secret.
00:02:00.35\00:02:03.39
Nobody was supposed to know,
it was just my grandma and I.
00:02:03.42\00:02:06.39
And so, over a period of time,
00:02:06.42\00:02:08.96
she eventually made me a
purple chiffon evening dress.
00:02:08.99\00:02:12.66
And she had me
standing on a cushion
00:02:12.69\00:02:14.46
and she pinned up
the hem and all that.
00:02:14.50\00:02:17.57
It was just a lot
of fussing over a boy,
00:02:17.60\00:02:20.57
and dressing this boy up,
who was me, as a little girl,
00:02:20.60\00:02:24.61
and that planted a seed.
00:02:24.64\00:02:28.84
And you really have no
idea, when you're so young,
00:02:28.88\00:02:32.48
what seed's being planted.
00:02:32.51\00:02:34.15
And that seed,
when it's nurtured,
00:02:34.18\00:02:36.05
like my grandmother
did, and it was obvious to me
00:02:36.08\00:02:39.59
that she really
liked me more as a girl.
00:02:39.62\00:02:42.52
And she never fond over me
as a boy but just as a girl.
00:02:42.56\00:02:47.90
So that gave me the idea
00:02:47.93\00:02:50.07
that I was better off as a girl.
00:02:50.10\00:02:52.43
I would be loved more as a girl,
00:02:52.47\00:02:54.10
I would be
appreciated more as a girl,
00:02:54.14\00:02:56.71
and you always want that.
00:02:56.74\00:02:58.34
I mean that's one of
the things that we want.
00:02:58.37\00:03:00.08
We want people
to like us, love us,
00:03:00.11\00:03:01.94
we want people to fond over us.
00:03:01.98\00:03:04.11
And so here's a grandmother,
00:03:04.15\00:03:05.88
but she's only doing it
00:03:05.91\00:03:07.25
when I'm dressed
in girls' clothes.
00:03:07.28\00:03:09.58
Right. About how old
were you at this time?
00:03:09.62\00:03:11.72
Well, that was
from the age of four
00:03:11.75\00:03:13.86
to about the
age of six or seven.
00:03:13.89\00:03:16.73
And then I ended up,
00:03:16.76\00:03:19.29
'cause I wanted to
continue doing this,
00:03:19.33\00:03:21.10
not just at grandma's house,
00:03:21.13\00:03:22.60
I wanted to do it
at home when I could.
00:03:22.63\00:03:24.20
So I put the dress
in a brown paper bag
00:03:24.23\00:03:27.00
and snuck it home when
my dad was taking me home
00:03:27.04\00:03:30.61
and put it in my dresser drawer,
00:03:30.64\00:03:32.17
but my mother found it.
00:03:32.21\00:03:33.91
And then that was a problem.
00:03:33.94\00:03:36.24
And so all of a sudden
there was this explosion
00:03:36.28\00:03:39.21
about what are you
doing with the dress?
00:03:39.25\00:03:41.42
How did you get this?
00:03:41.45\00:03:42.78
And then I was unable to
go to grandma's house anymore,
00:03:42.82\00:03:45.42
the dress disappeared.
00:03:45.45\00:03:47.79
And my dad, you know,
00:03:47.82\00:03:49.16
because he was kind
of a very macho guy,
00:03:49.19\00:03:51.49
a police officer and so forth,
00:03:51.53\00:03:54.56
really, really
sort of floored him
00:03:54.60\00:03:57.43
that grandma was doing this.
00:03:57.47\00:03:59.93
And so that started a
fight between my mom and my dad,
00:03:59.97\00:04:03.24
you know, the conflict,
you know, why did you have...
00:04:03.27\00:04:05.81
Your mother's doing this
stuff, we didn't know about it.
00:04:05.84\00:04:08.98
And so then I felt
like it was my fault.
00:04:09.01\00:04:11.75
I mean, here I am,
six or seven years old,
00:04:11.78\00:04:13.82
and I'm thinking what did I do
00:04:13.85\00:04:15.62
when, in fact, I
really hadn't done anything.
00:04:15.65\00:04:18.79
And so that just started this
long journey about my identity
00:04:18.82\00:04:23.99
and who I was and the conflict
00:04:24.03\00:04:26.56
that went along
with me being this...
00:04:26.59\00:04:29.70
I don't think I had the term
in those days as transgender.
00:04:29.73\00:04:33.03
I mean, this was
quite a long time ago.
00:04:33.07\00:04:36.40
This was in the '40s.
00:04:36.44\00:04:37.87
I don't know if I was the
very first transkid or not,
00:04:37.91\00:04:40.68
but that's what was
going on in those days for me.
00:04:40.71\00:04:44.81
Right, so I really identify
in so many areas of your story.
00:04:44.85\00:04:48.55
My father was also very macho,
00:04:48.58\00:04:50.79
and I would get spanked
00:04:50.82\00:04:52.15
if I got caught
playing with dolls
00:04:52.19\00:04:54.02
or dressing up in
my sister's clothes.
00:04:54.06\00:04:56.32
But I remember I had an
aunt that one day took me
00:04:56.36\00:04:58.79
and she actually styled my hair
00:04:58.83\00:05:00.66
to look like a
girl's and she teased it.
00:05:00.70\00:05:02.66
And I remember like this
thrill that came over me,
00:05:02.70\00:05:05.43
not to mention the fact
00:05:05.47\00:05:06.80
that she was
affirming me in femininity,
00:05:06.84\00:05:09.50
but then also, you know,
00:05:09.54\00:05:10.87
that it felt like I
was free or liberated
00:05:10.91\00:05:12.74
to actually experience that,
00:05:12.77\00:05:14.44
which I think
became a stronghold,
00:05:14.48\00:05:16.54
you know, for me
at that time as well,
00:05:16.58\00:05:18.51
rejected my
father's masculinity,
00:05:18.55\00:05:20.72
it was just
unapproachable and unappealing,
00:05:20.75\00:05:23.25
and I reverted
back to my mother.
00:05:23.28\00:05:25.09
So again, this affirmation,
00:05:25.12\00:05:26.96
I had a very
strong macho father,
00:05:26.99\00:05:29.26
you know, and that
to me I could relate to,
00:05:29.29\00:05:31.53
but I could relate
to the feminine side.
00:05:31.56\00:05:33.66
So while there was some
more extenuating circumstances
00:05:33.70\00:05:36.77
that happened that also helped
to drive this transgender.
00:05:36.80\00:05:40.57
Yeah, yeah, once
that seed was planted
00:05:40.60\00:05:44.01
and dad's doing
the heavy discipline
00:05:44.04\00:05:46.04
and he's obviously
very concerned about me
00:05:46.07\00:05:48.81
and upset that this
was going on in my life
00:05:48.84\00:05:51.01
and his adopted brother,
00:05:51.05\00:05:53.48
who was a teenager at the time,
00:05:53.52\00:05:56.02
thought it would
be appropriate for him
00:05:56.05\00:05:58.65
to tease me and taunt
me and sexually molest me,
00:05:58.69\00:06:02.46
and he did this
for a couple of years.
00:06:02.49\00:06:04.23
He would take me in
his car up in the mountains
00:06:04.26\00:06:07.66
and do that sort
of thing, and so...
00:06:07.70\00:06:09.90
This was your
uncle. This was my uncle.
00:06:09.93\00:06:11.80
And so that became, you know,
00:06:11.83\00:06:13.94
another part of
this painful journey
00:06:13.97\00:06:16.10
that really only started
00:06:16.14\00:06:17.77
because my
grandmother crossed-dressed me.
00:06:17.81\00:06:20.58
I mean, that was the
start of all of this.
00:06:20.61\00:06:24.28
Dad wouldn't have
been doing the discipline,
00:06:24.31\00:06:25.91
the uncle wouldn't have
been doing the molestations,
00:06:25.95\00:06:28.28
had it not been
00:06:28.32\00:06:29.65
for my
grandmother cross-dressing me
00:06:29.68\00:06:31.95
and doing this over a
period of a couple years.
00:06:31.99\00:06:34.86
So we can see all
of the things going on,
00:06:34.89\00:06:38.39
really, the origin comes
00:06:38.43\00:06:40.43
from that very
moment of cross-dressing.
00:06:40.46\00:06:42.46
Now I realize
that actually the...
00:06:42.50\00:06:45.03
In my life, the
event of cross-dressing
00:06:45.07\00:06:48.30
begins the abuse.
00:06:48.34\00:06:50.31
So I'd like to kind of point out
00:06:50.34\00:06:52.24
that now we live in a world
00:06:52.27\00:06:53.94
where, you know, cross-dressing
seems to be the norm.
00:06:53.98\00:06:56.28
We have school systems in Europe
00:06:56.31\00:06:58.45
that are actually saying
00:06:58.48\00:06:59.81
that kids need
to experience that
00:06:59.85\00:07:01.82
so that they can experience
00:07:01.85\00:07:03.18
what their gender identity is.
00:07:03.22\00:07:04.72
Is it no...
00:07:04.75\00:07:06.42
There's no wonder now to me
00:07:06.45\00:07:08.79
why God says that
it's not proper for men
00:07:08.82\00:07:10.89
to wear the
opposite sex clothing
00:07:10.93\00:07:12.73
and for women to
wear men's clothing
00:07:12.76\00:07:14.60
because what that does is...
00:07:14.63\00:07:15.96
what it did for us
00:07:16.00\00:07:17.33
is it affirmed
this identity detachment
00:07:17.37\00:07:20.37
and what it did
is it encouraged it
00:07:20.40\00:07:21.94
and helped it to grow.
00:07:21.97\00:07:23.30
So that, to me, helps to
explain that, verse wise,
00:07:23.34\00:07:26.21
what's the big deal
00:07:26.24\00:07:27.58
if a guy puts on
a dress or if he,
00:07:27.61\00:07:29.94
you know, wears
his hair like a girl
00:07:29.98\00:07:31.78
because what that did
is that affirmed to us
00:07:31.81\00:07:34.62
this deep
attachment to the opposite sex
00:07:34.65\00:07:36.72
and the
dissatisfaction of our own sex.
00:07:36.75\00:07:39.85
Right. And we
see this so much now.
00:07:39.89\00:07:42.86
And we can see that
not only are the children,
00:07:42.89\00:07:45.46
if there's a boy,
changing to be a girl,
00:07:45.49\00:07:48.16
he gets much more affirmation
and much more attention
00:07:48.20\00:07:51.63
and much more protection,
you know, from the teachers
00:07:51.67\00:07:55.64
and the family and all
that because he is transgender.
00:07:55.67\00:07:58.67
But what I've kind of
come to the conclusion
00:07:58.71\00:08:01.18
is that we've taken
00:08:01.21\00:08:02.54
what is really
nothing more than a behavior
00:08:02.58\00:08:05.48
'cause dressing is
just a behavioral action
00:08:05.51\00:08:08.95
and tried to turn it
into an identity of self.
00:08:08.98\00:08:13.09
And this is where
the trouble starts.
00:08:13.12\00:08:15.86
It's interesting
because the more I was exposed
00:08:15.89\00:08:18.09
to masculinity, the
more frightening it was,
00:08:18.13\00:08:20.70
which actually drove up
for me the gender confusion.
00:08:20.73\00:08:24.63
So what I want to
also point out is the fact
00:08:24.67\00:08:27.54
that you never struggled with
homosexual attraction, right?
00:08:27.57\00:08:31.71
That was nothing
that was an issue for you,
00:08:31.74\00:08:34.08
whereas it was for me.
00:08:34.11\00:08:35.81
Because I think in my situation,
00:08:35.84\00:08:38.31
you know, I was kind of
repulsed by what my uncle did,
00:08:38.35\00:08:42.38
and so it wasn't anything
00:08:42.42\00:08:43.82
I ever wanted
anything to do with.
00:08:43.85\00:08:46.09
So instead of driving me to
it, that drove me away from it.
00:08:46.12\00:08:49.66
But still my identity,
00:08:49.69\00:08:51.89
at that point,
was still so fragile,
00:08:51.93\00:08:54.10
it became broken.
00:08:54.13\00:08:55.53
Interesting, so one thing that
00:08:55.56\00:08:57.40
I'd like to point
out is the fact that,
00:08:57.43\00:08:59.20
you know, there's no formula
for why somebody is homosexual
00:08:59.23\00:09:03.20
or heterosexual
as far as that goes.
00:09:03.24\00:09:05.44
What I find amazing is that
00:09:05.47\00:09:06.84
even with all of the physical
00:09:06.88\00:09:08.78
and sexual abuse
that you experienced,
00:09:08.81\00:09:10.81
that your identity was
able to survive through that,
00:09:10.85\00:09:15.02
you know,
heterosexual attraction,
00:09:15.05\00:09:16.82
whereas other people,
00:09:16.85\00:09:18.19
like myself, and even
though I wasn't molested,
00:09:18.22\00:09:20.86
there were issues that created
00:09:20.89\00:09:23.02
the same sex attraction as well.
00:09:23.06\00:09:25.06
So again, I'd like to point out
00:09:25.09\00:09:26.56
that people are
always trying to find
00:09:26.59\00:09:28.26
what's the formula for
why someone is gay or not,
00:09:28.30\00:09:31.17
and there's a very
high statistic of men
00:09:31.20\00:09:33.40
that are transgendered
that are not homosexual.
00:09:33.44\00:09:35.84
You know, that's right.
00:09:35.87\00:09:37.21
A lot of them just
have an identity issue
00:09:37.24\00:09:40.68
about their gender
00:09:40.71\00:09:42.14
and it doesn't
involve homosexuality,
00:09:42.18\00:09:44.51
in fact, many of
them, boys who become women,
00:09:44.55\00:09:48.18
identify more as being a lesbian
00:09:48.22\00:09:51.02
than they do heterosexual.
00:09:51.05\00:09:52.62
That's just what they
do, which is interesting.
00:09:52.65\00:09:55.56
Right, okay, so on that vein,
00:09:55.59\00:09:57.63
you ended up
marrying and having children.
00:09:57.66\00:10:00.80
Talk to us maybe
about the struggle
00:10:00.83\00:10:03.00
that you're still having
the transgendered feelings
00:10:03.03\00:10:06.20
but yet you have a
family, a wife, a great career.
00:10:06.23\00:10:10.24
Right.
00:10:10.27\00:10:11.61
You know, I started
going through school
00:10:11.64\00:10:14.14
and still struggling
inside with these things.
00:10:14.18\00:10:16.78
I didn't want to
talk to anybody about it.
00:10:16.81\00:10:19.21
So I kept them internalized,
but they never went away.
00:10:19.25\00:10:22.75
I even secretly took on a
different name, Krystal West,
00:10:22.78\00:10:26.89
when I was in my
teens, you know, just to...
00:10:26.92\00:10:29.82
But I was
cross-dressing in private.
00:10:29.86\00:10:32.06
So that was my little
secret, my little world,
00:10:32.09\00:10:34.40
I didn't let anybody into it.
00:10:34.43\00:10:36.26
And so as I got into this
and then later I found a girl,
00:10:36.30\00:10:41.27
we got married.
00:10:41.30\00:10:42.67
And we had two children,
and I was still struggling,
00:10:42.70\00:10:46.94
I told her about it,
and our conclusion was that
00:10:46.98\00:10:50.31
if I got
married, it would go away.
00:10:50.35\00:10:52.61
You know, so I wanted her
to know that I was struggling,
00:10:52.65\00:10:54.98
and I was convinced,
00:10:55.02\00:10:56.38
well, this is going to
go away, well, it didn't.
00:10:56.42\00:10:58.59
I mean, even
after the first child
00:10:58.62\00:11:00.26
and the second child,
00:11:00.29\00:11:01.89
and me working as an
associate design engineer
00:11:01.92\00:11:06.09
on the Apollo space missions,
00:11:06.13\00:11:07.60
I had a very
nice successful career
00:11:07.63\00:11:10.00
and eventually
becoming an executive
00:11:10.03\00:11:11.87
for a large automobile company.
00:11:11.90\00:11:15.30
But I still struggled.
00:11:15.34\00:11:16.67
And then I was
starting to use alcohol
00:11:16.71\00:11:19.67
as a way to cope
with the struggling,
00:11:19.71\00:11:21.68
to try to suppress the feelings
00:11:21.71\00:11:23.35
because I was...
00:11:23.38\00:11:24.71
I had a family, I had children,
I had responsibilities,
00:11:24.75\00:11:27.72
and to a certain degree,
00:11:27.75\00:11:29.08
I had this great integrity about
00:11:29.12\00:11:30.72
wanting to be the
father, the husband,
00:11:30.75\00:11:34.52
to the kids and the
family, and do a good job.
00:11:34.56\00:11:36.76
But I was sort of dying inside
00:11:36.79\00:11:39.33
because of what had
started at grandma's house.
00:11:39.36\00:11:43.60
And then I was
pouring alcohol on it
00:11:43.63\00:11:46.30
as a way to try to cope with it,
00:11:46.33\00:11:47.97
which turns out
not to be the best way
00:11:48.00\00:11:50.51
to deal with a situation.
00:11:50.54\00:11:51.97
Right, okay, so now you
ended up seeking counsel
00:11:52.01\00:11:55.18
and this therapist
gave you some advice.
00:11:55.21\00:11:58.15
Take us now into
that aspect if you would.
00:11:58.18\00:12:00.38
Yeah, struggling so
much, I decided that I would go
00:12:00.42\00:12:02.88
to the most
prominent therapist on this,
00:12:02.92\00:12:05.19
and it was Dr. Paul Walker
00:12:05.22\00:12:06.76
who actually wrote the
WPATH Standards of Care
00:12:06.79\00:12:10.56
that we know today.
00:12:10.59\00:12:11.93
He was the original
author of those standards.
00:12:11.96\00:12:14.30
So I thought here's
a guy that really knows
00:12:14.33\00:12:16.63
how to diagnose
00:12:16.67\00:12:18.00
and provide
guidance in what I should do.
00:12:18.03\00:12:20.94
And he diagnosed me right
away with gender dysphoria
00:12:20.97\00:12:23.87
and suggested, within a
very short period of time,
00:12:23.91\00:12:27.28
that I should
undergo hormone therapy
00:12:27.31\00:12:29.74
and gender reassignment surgery.
00:12:29.78\00:12:31.31
But I did wait the
two year time period,
00:12:31.35\00:12:34.95
and I went back to
him after two years,
00:12:34.98\00:12:38.42
and I was still
married during this time
00:12:38.45\00:12:40.52
and still working.
00:12:40.56\00:12:42.36
And so I went back to him
00:12:42.39\00:12:44.26
and I said, you know,
"I'm still struggling.
00:12:44.29\00:12:45.86
We talked in
1981, now it's 1983,
00:12:45.89\00:12:49.76
and what should I do?"
00:12:49.80\00:12:51.37
He said, you know, "I think
00:12:51.40\00:12:52.73
you still have gender dysphoria,
00:12:52.77\00:12:54.27
and the only way to resolve
00:12:54.30\00:12:55.64
that is undergo
gender reassignment surgery.
00:12:55.67\00:12:57.64
So I decided to get divorced
and undergo the surgery.
00:12:57.67\00:13:03.68
And I did.
00:13:03.71\00:13:05.08
And I became Laura Jensen,
00:13:05.11\00:13:07.35
and my career as an
automobile executive
00:13:07.38\00:13:11.85
quickly evaporated.
00:13:11.89\00:13:13.86
They ushered me
out of the building
00:13:13.89\00:13:15.52
and said I
couldn't work there anymore.
00:13:15.56\00:13:17.23
And so within very few months,
00:13:17.26\00:13:20.43
I was broke and living in a park
00:13:20.46\00:13:24.70
and starting to try to dig
my way out of what had happened
00:13:24.73\00:13:29.40
that started with the
dress at grandma's house.
00:13:29.44\00:13:32.14
Okay, so, well, really
did they escort you out?
00:13:32.17\00:13:34.71
Was it really
that blatant? Yeah.
00:13:34.74\00:13:37.81
Were you living as a woman now?
00:13:37.85\00:13:39.75
I wasn't at that time.
00:13:39.78\00:13:41.12
I announced that I was
going to come to work as Laura,
00:13:41.15\00:13:44.25
and they weren't
going to let that happen.
00:13:44.29\00:13:46.05
Wow, okay.
00:13:46.09\00:13:47.42
So now here you are,
00:13:47.46\00:13:48.79
you're homeless,
living in a park.
00:13:48.82\00:13:50.16
Right. Okay.
00:13:50.19\00:13:51.53
And so you did end
up having the surgery,
00:13:51.56\00:13:53.80
talk a little bit about that,
did it satisfy that for you?
00:13:53.83\00:13:57.37
Did it help?
00:13:57.40\00:13:58.73
Well, there was this
great euphoric feeling about,
00:13:58.77\00:14:01.07
you know, finally have arrived.
00:14:01.10\00:14:03.64
The next day, it's just
like, "Wow, this is wonderful."
00:14:03.67\00:14:07.28
It was great.
00:14:07.31\00:14:09.18
And there's a period of time,
I kind of liken it to the time
00:14:09.21\00:14:13.75
when you're in a bar drinking
and you're having a good time,
00:14:13.78\00:14:16.48
but you're not really aware
00:14:16.52\00:14:17.85
of what's going on in your life,
00:14:17.89\00:14:19.22
you know, 'cause
it's very euphoric,
00:14:19.25\00:14:21.12
it's very exciting,
00:14:21.16\00:14:22.49
you finally made it,
especially in my case,
00:14:22.52\00:14:24.69
where I was 42 years old,
so I'd struggled for 38 years.
00:14:24.73\00:14:30.87
But then you start
dealing with reality.
00:14:30.90\00:14:34.00
And the reality is
I don't have a job,
00:14:34.04\00:14:36.77
I no longer have a family,
I no longer have any money,
00:14:36.81\00:14:40.94
and I'm laying
in a park wondering,
00:14:40.98\00:14:43.85
"Okay, I'm a
transgender female Laura Jensen,
00:14:43.88\00:14:47.65
now what do I do?"
00:14:47.68\00:14:49.02
So the battle back. Right.
00:14:49.05\00:14:51.42
So how extensive
was your surgery, Walt?
00:14:51.45\00:14:53.86
I had everything
done. Top and bottom.
00:14:53.89\00:14:56.89
Top, bottom, sides, everything.
00:14:56.93\00:14:59.23
I had chin implants,
buttocks implants, nose,
00:14:59.26\00:15:03.37
they did the complete...
00:15:03.40\00:15:05.07
Okay, how expensive was that?
00:15:05.10\00:15:07.74
Oh, it was very expensive.
00:15:07.77\00:15:09.40
I tried not to
calculate how much it was
00:15:09.44\00:15:11.71
because I knew that
would be very painful,
00:15:11.74\00:15:13.74
but it was, you know,
00:15:13.78\00:15:15.11
well over $50,000 in those days,
00:15:15.14\00:15:17.71
it's been over 30 years ago.
00:15:17.75\00:15:20.25
If I may, I'd
really like to go deep.
00:15:20.28\00:15:22.48
On that day, when you
were having the first surgery,
00:15:22.52\00:15:25.12
what went through your mind of,
00:15:25.15\00:15:26.96
you know, I'm
passing over to somewhere
00:15:26.99\00:15:29.32
where I've never been
before or let's get this going,
00:15:29.36\00:15:32.79
I can't wait to be Laura Jensen,
00:15:32.83\00:15:34.70
was there any
regrets at that time
00:15:34.73\00:15:36.56
when you were about
to go under the knife?
00:15:36.60\00:15:38.10
No, you know,
that's a great question.
00:15:38.13\00:15:40.30
And because I had been
dealing with this for so long
00:15:40.34\00:15:43.14
and I had what I called kind
of a radio playing in my head,
00:15:43.17\00:15:46.01
you know, that you're Laura,
you're not a man, you're...
00:15:46.04\00:15:49.31
You know, that was
just going on in my head.
00:15:49.34\00:15:51.01
So I thought this has got to
be the only way I can cure this
00:15:51.05\00:15:54.55
and make it go
away, turn the radio off,
00:15:54.58\00:15:56.45
turn off that whole
thing that kept telling me
00:15:56.48\00:16:00.02
that I was a
female in a male body.
00:16:00.06\00:16:04.39
So I was excited about it. Okay.
00:16:04.43\00:16:05.89
So I didn't have any regrets,
I didn't have any concerns.
00:16:05.93\00:16:10.50
Obviously, you don't
know how it's going to end up,
00:16:10.53\00:16:13.44
but, you know, you think
this has got to be better
00:16:13.47\00:16:16.14
than what was going on.
00:16:16.17\00:16:17.61
All right, so I'm
going to use your analogy.
00:16:17.64\00:16:19.81
Now, you know, the night is
over, you're out of the bar,
00:16:19.84\00:16:23.04
now it's the next morning
00:16:23.08\00:16:24.41
and you're waking
up with this hangover,
00:16:24.45\00:16:26.35
only the hangover is
not going to go away,
00:16:26.38\00:16:28.35
you are now Laura.
00:16:28.38\00:16:29.92
And what was that like for you?
00:16:29.95\00:16:31.42
Well, I think, you know,
00:16:31.45\00:16:32.79
one of the things
that needs to be clear
00:16:32.82\00:16:34.22
is that hangover, it takes,
sometimes, months or years.
00:16:34.26\00:16:37.99
You know, so it's
not instantaneous.
00:16:38.03\00:16:40.43
You've sort of...
00:16:40.46\00:16:41.80
You're really
working hard to make it work.
00:16:41.83\00:16:43.97
You're really trying
to live out this life
00:16:44.00\00:16:46.07
that you've dreamed about,
that you've fantasized about,
00:16:46.10\00:16:48.70
that you've worked toward,
00:16:48.74\00:16:50.07
that you've
done all these things
00:16:50.11\00:16:51.44
that people are
telling you this is the answer.
00:16:51.47\00:16:54.51
So I was able to do
that for eight years.
00:16:54.54\00:16:57.08
I lived as Laura
Jensen for eight years
00:16:57.11\00:16:59.21
and I had a good employment
after I finally got to work.
00:16:59.25\00:17:03.82
But there was a time
00:17:03.85\00:17:05.19
when I started
studying psychology
00:17:05.22\00:17:07.52
'cause I wanted to become
a therapist and help people,
00:17:07.56\00:17:10.99
and I was
studying at UC Santa Cruz,
00:17:11.03\00:17:13.53
and I was looking
at some of these books
00:17:13.56\00:17:15.36
and they started
talking about transgenders
00:17:15.40\00:17:18.23
having what they
called separation anxiety
00:17:18.27\00:17:20.47
and dissociative disorders,
and I'm looking at this
00:17:20.50\00:17:22.94
and I'm going,
"Whoa! Wait a minute."
00:17:22.97\00:17:24.71
And as I began to study this,
00:17:24.74\00:17:27.11
I realized that
nobody's born that way.
00:17:27.14\00:17:29.84
That, you know,
these are behaviors
00:17:29.88\00:17:32.31
that people get involved in
00:17:32.35\00:17:33.78
and begin to sort
of fantasize about
00:17:33.82\00:17:36.48
and develop an identity
00:17:36.52\00:17:38.02
that's not actually who you are.
00:17:38.05\00:17:40.66
You think it's who you are
00:17:40.69\00:17:42.56
and you sort of
develop something
00:17:42.59\00:17:45.49
out of all of the stuff
00:17:45.53\00:17:47.30
that's gone on in your
life that you never dealt with.
00:17:47.33\00:17:51.43
So this is interesting,
00:17:51.47\00:17:52.80
well, 'cause I want to go
back to the beginning again
00:17:52.83\00:17:55.64
because something you said
00:17:55.67\00:17:57.11
that really hit the
nail on the head for me
00:17:57.14\00:17:58.77
is that gender dysphoria
00:17:58.81\00:18:00.81
is really
symptomatic of a depression.
00:18:00.84\00:18:03.28
And the issue for me
is I couldn't get my body
00:18:03.31\00:18:05.88
to match what was
going on inside my mind,
00:18:05.91\00:18:09.15
give us some insight on that.
00:18:09.18\00:18:10.65
Yes, people don't
realize when the grandmother,
00:18:10.69\00:18:14.12
in my case,
started cross-dressing me,
00:18:14.16\00:18:16.02
there's a seed of
depression that starts.
00:18:16.06\00:18:18.93
I mean, there's two
things happening here.
00:18:18.96\00:18:22.03
Grandma's saying,
"You're not really a boy,
00:18:22.06\00:18:25.20
you're a girl."
00:18:25.23\00:18:26.57
And so you become
unaware at the time
00:18:26.60\00:18:29.70
that you're becoming depressed
00:18:29.74\00:18:31.14
about the fact that
you weren't born correctly,
00:18:31.17\00:18:33.17
that's a depression.
00:18:33.21\00:18:34.54
Exactly. I mean, that's...
00:18:34.58\00:18:35.91
And that depression
frankly never gets addressed,
00:18:35.94\00:18:40.32
it never gets treated,
00:18:40.35\00:18:41.82
changing genders does
not change that depression.
00:18:41.85\00:18:44.59
Wouldn't it complicate it?
00:18:44.62\00:18:46.19
Oh, absolutely complicates it
00:18:46.22\00:18:48.12
because you're actually
adding to the depression,
00:18:48.16\00:18:51.16
you're trying to, you know,
00:18:51.19\00:18:52.99
live through this in this gender
00:18:53.03\00:18:55.13
that you've
created out of surgery,
00:18:55.16\00:18:57.00
and makeup, and
clothing, which is nothing more
00:18:57.03\00:19:00.54
than you're acting
out of the depression
00:19:00.57\00:19:04.24
and not acting out of reality.
00:19:04.27\00:19:06.17
Yeah, you know,
if for no one else,
00:19:06.21\00:19:08.34
this program is for me.
00:19:08.38\00:19:09.71
So while, you know, I
gained so much insight just by,
00:19:09.74\00:19:12.88
you know, listening to you
00:19:12.91\00:19:14.25
because I finally identify
with some of that, for me,
00:19:14.28\00:19:17.15
and I'm hoping that people
that are watching this program
00:19:17.19\00:19:19.92
that are struggling
also with transgenderism
00:19:19.95\00:19:22.69
or gender dysphoria
00:19:22.72\00:19:24.06
that they're going to
gain insights as well.
00:19:24.09\00:19:25.59
But what I really
want to talk about now
00:19:25.63\00:19:27.36
is how Jesus came into your life
00:19:27.40\00:19:30.37
and the incredible
changes that it made?
00:19:30.40\00:19:32.40
So if you can,
let's address that part
00:19:32.43\00:19:35.10
'cause that's the best part.
00:19:35.14\00:19:36.47
Yeah, it is.
00:19:36.50\00:19:37.84
You know, and once I finally
started working a program,
00:19:37.87\00:19:41.01
a recovery, and not drinking,
00:19:41.04\00:19:43.35
and during that time
at the recovery house,
00:19:43.38\00:19:45.65
there was a church close by,
00:19:45.68\00:19:47.25
and after going
to several churches
00:19:47.28\00:19:49.52
and them not
really being too open
00:19:49.55\00:19:51.79
to transgenders in the church,
00:19:51.82\00:19:53.25
I found this one church
and I went to the pastor
00:19:53.29\00:19:56.06
and he said, I asked him,
00:19:56.09\00:19:58.53
"Are you going to
try to change me?"
00:19:58.56\00:20:00.00
You know, basically,
00:20:00.03\00:20:01.36
"Are you going to try to
change me back to a boy?"
00:20:01.40\00:20:03.30
Right. So here
you are, Laura, right?
00:20:03.33\00:20:05.03
I'm Laura, and I
was sitting before him
00:20:05.07\00:20:07.54
and he kind of
rolled back in his chair
00:20:07.57\00:20:09.00
and he says, "No,
my job's to love you,
00:20:09.04\00:20:11.14
it's God's job to change you."
00:20:11.17\00:20:12.64
And I think that
moment for me was so powerful
00:20:12.67\00:20:15.98
because it sort of
planted another seed in me
00:20:16.01\00:20:18.55
about the fact that
this was between God and I
00:20:18.58\00:20:22.52
and His love that could
recreate my life in the way
00:20:22.55\00:20:26.55
that He had intended it to be.
00:20:26.59\00:20:28.06
So I began to pray and
work through these issues.
00:20:28.09\00:20:32.26
And I did start
going to see a psychologist
00:20:32.29\00:20:34.63
and dealing with
that and found out that,
00:20:34.66\00:20:36.80
you know, going
through this gender change
00:20:36.83\00:20:39.57
is actually a dissociation.
00:20:39.60\00:20:41.37
I mean, it's not a
very complicated thing,
00:20:41.40\00:20:44.01
you're dissociating
from who you really are
00:20:44.04\00:20:45.87
to become
someone who you're not.
00:20:45.91\00:20:47.58
And you're trying to make
00:20:47.61\00:20:48.94
that who you're not
real when, in fact, it's not.
00:20:48.98\00:20:52.35
And so once you
begin to understand
00:20:52.38\00:20:55.38
that you're living
out this delusional idea
00:20:55.42\00:20:59.32
of who you are and
that it is not real
00:20:59.35\00:21:01.26
because it's categorically
impossible, biologically,
00:21:01.29\00:21:04.53
to change a man into a woman.
00:21:04.56\00:21:06.36
You can't do that. All right.
00:21:06.39\00:21:07.73
So what I really want to know,
00:21:07.76\00:21:09.16
I want to know
from your perspective,
00:21:09.20\00:21:11.50
like I recognize that
this wasn't who I was,
00:21:11.53\00:21:14.80
how was that?
00:21:14.84\00:21:16.17
Make it personal for me
00:21:16.20\00:21:17.54
because I really want
to get inside your head.
00:21:17.57\00:21:18.94
I think once I realized
that I was living out something
00:21:18.97\00:21:23.21
that wasn't real, I just had...
00:21:23.24\00:21:25.78
I knew that the Lord was there,
I knew that He wanted me to be
00:21:25.81\00:21:29.62
the man that I
was supposed to be,
00:21:29.65\00:21:31.75
and I began working
diligently to that end,
00:21:31.79\00:21:35.42
and it was very
hard to disconnect
00:21:35.46\00:21:37.56
from all that had gone on.
00:21:37.59\00:21:38.93
It wasn't quick and easy.
00:21:38.96\00:21:40.30
So... Wow.
00:21:40.33\00:21:42.30
So, well, now this is
getting even more complicated.
00:21:42.33\00:21:45.47
So now here's a man
00:21:45.50\00:21:47.20
that transitioned
out of his masculinity
00:21:47.24\00:21:50.37
into this artificial femininity,
00:21:50.41\00:21:52.91
and now you've got to
make this whole switch again.
00:21:52.94\00:21:55.51
Right.
00:21:55.54\00:21:56.88
And so you've got
to push through that.
00:21:56.91\00:21:58.71
Yeah. You had to
push through that.
00:21:58.75\00:22:02.22
And so what was
really the most amazing thing
00:22:02.25\00:22:05.52
was I began to pray a lot.
00:22:05.55\00:22:07.82
I was not a
person who prayed much.
00:22:07.86\00:22:09.89
And so I began praying a lot,
and I was praying with a guy
00:22:09.92\00:22:14.03
who I had worked on
my program recovery with,
00:22:14.06\00:22:17.63
he's a psychologist,
and we were praying
00:22:17.67\00:22:19.70
kind of just like we are
here in a little setting.
00:22:19.73\00:22:22.94
And he started
praying, and all of a sudden,
00:22:22.97\00:22:26.01
during this prayer, I
don't remember what he said,
00:22:26.04\00:22:29.88
you know, but he was
praying and I was praying.
00:22:29.91\00:22:32.28
And I looked up
00:22:32.31\00:22:33.65
and I could actually
see the Lord coming to me,
00:22:33.68\00:22:37.92
He was in a white
robe, I could see His face,
00:22:37.95\00:22:40.32
I couldn't see His feet,
00:22:40.36\00:22:41.76
and He was coming down toward me
00:22:41.79\00:22:43.43
with His hands like this.
00:22:43.46\00:22:45.39
And He was reaching out
to me, and at that moment,
00:22:45.43\00:22:48.00
I saw myself as a
little baby wrapped in cloth.
00:22:48.03\00:22:51.73
And He picked me up
and held me in His arms,
00:22:51.77\00:22:54.74
and the words He spoke were,
00:22:54.77\00:22:56.77
"You'll now be
safe with Me forever."
00:22:56.81\00:22:59.54
And then He went away.
00:22:59.57\00:23:02.04
And I realized
at that very moment
00:23:02.08\00:23:04.95
my life had been transformed,
00:23:04.98\00:23:06.68
I had been redeemed
and restored to the gender
00:23:06.72\00:23:10.42
that God had made me to be,
00:23:10.45\00:23:12.05
and then I never
looked back since that time.
00:23:12.09\00:23:14.66
Wow, that's amazing.
00:23:14.69\00:23:18.06
I love how God is such
a personal intimate God
00:23:18.09\00:23:20.83
that He even revealed Himself
to you in an intimate way,
00:23:20.86\00:23:24.13
and that in itself was healing.
00:23:24.17\00:23:26.07
So now, Walt, you're
now healed and redeemed,
00:23:26.10\00:23:29.50
but you still have this
mutilation to your body,
00:23:29.54\00:23:32.67
talk about that transition
in just a minute or two.
00:23:32.71\00:23:35.81
Yeah, well,
there's only a few things
00:23:35.84\00:23:37.51
you can do to bring
things back to normal.
00:23:37.55\00:23:40.18
So you stop taking hormones,
you re-identify who you are,
00:23:40.22\00:23:44.19
you take out
some of the implants,
00:23:44.22\00:23:46.32
but there are some
surgeries that you can't...
00:23:46.35\00:23:48.36
you just can't repair.
00:23:48.39\00:23:50.09
And that's kind of
the unfortunate thing.
00:23:50.13\00:23:52.96
But it's not that bad because
one of the things that I love
00:23:52.99\00:23:56.16
is that Jesus says when
it comes to take us home that
00:23:56.20\00:23:59.07
that we're changed in
the twinkling of an eye.
00:23:59.10\00:24:01.10
And so there are many
things, Walt, not just,
00:24:01.14\00:24:03.41
you know, people
that have attempted,
00:24:03.44\00:24:05.17
you know, gender
identity changes,
00:24:05.21\00:24:07.01
but, you know, people that are
covered in tattoos or piercings
00:24:07.04\00:24:10.01
or whatever that is,
00:24:10.05\00:24:11.38
you know, no matter what
we've done to our bodies here,
00:24:11.41\00:24:13.48
what's so wonderful
is that when Jesus comes
00:24:13.52\00:24:15.88
that all of this
00:24:15.92\00:24:17.35
is all changed in
the twinkling of an eye
00:24:17.39\00:24:18.95
and He restores us back to
what we were intended to be.
00:24:18.99\00:24:21.22
Absolutely. Isn't that powerful?
00:24:21.26\00:24:22.69
It's powerful
and it's so freeing.
00:24:22.72\00:24:25.93
And it just...
Finally, when that came,
00:24:25.96\00:24:28.50
I was finally free
after 50 years of life.
00:24:28.53\00:24:31.97
I finally was living the life
that God had intended me to be.
00:24:32.00\00:24:35.60
What I find so
amazing is that most people,
00:24:35.64\00:24:38.21
when they have
this gender change,
00:24:38.24\00:24:40.31
when they have the sex change,
that's when they say that
00:24:40.34\00:24:42.78
they're at their true
freedom, their true liberty,
00:24:42.81\00:24:45.25
and yet, for you, it
wasn't after the first one
00:24:45.28\00:24:47.35
but the second one
00:24:47.38\00:24:48.72
that the liberty
actually came through
00:24:48.75\00:24:50.19
a relationship
with Jesus Christ.
00:24:50.22\00:24:52.49
Is that right? Yes, absolutely.
00:24:52.52\00:24:54.56
And those people
00:24:54.59\00:24:55.92
who haven't had that
relationship with Christ
00:24:55.96\00:24:58.39
will never know true freedom.
00:24:58.43\00:24:59.76
Wow, wow, that's a
beautiful statement.
00:24:59.79\00:25:02.46
So Walt, if there's anything
that you would recommend
00:25:02.50\00:25:04.67
or that you would like to say
00:25:04.70\00:25:06.03
to somebody that's struggling
with gender dysphoria,
00:25:06.07\00:25:09.44
what would you like to say?
00:25:09.47\00:25:10.84
Well, I'd like
for them to understand
00:25:10.87\00:25:12.44
that gender dysphoria itself
00:25:12.47\00:25:14.41
is only a symptom of
something much deeper,
00:25:14.44\00:25:17.98
something much more troubling
00:25:18.01\00:25:19.41
that actually
needs psychotherapy
00:25:19.45\00:25:21.52
or to be addressed properly,
00:25:21.55\00:25:22.88
whether it's depression
00:25:22.92\00:25:24.25
or whether it's
separation anxiety
00:25:24.29\00:25:25.75
or dissociative
disorder, bipolar
00:25:25.79\00:25:28.29
'cause there are so
many different disorders
00:25:28.32\00:25:30.49
that the term is
called comorbid disorders
00:25:30.53\00:25:34.33
that link themselves
00:25:34.36\00:25:36.60
and attach
themselves to gender dysphoria.
00:25:36.63\00:25:38.83
And today, unfortunately,
00:25:38.87\00:25:40.20
most of the people
are not getting treated
00:25:40.24\00:25:41.87
for the comorbid disorders,
00:25:41.90\00:25:43.24
they're only dealing
with the gender dysphoria.
00:25:43.27\00:25:45.47
Okay, so comorbid disorder,
00:25:45.51\00:25:47.84
could you just kind
of define that again?
00:25:47.88\00:25:49.48
Comorbid disorder is
this secondary disorder
00:25:49.51\00:25:52.51
that's under gender dysphoria.
00:25:52.55\00:25:54.52
In other words, gender
dysphoria only tells you
00:25:54.55\00:25:57.32
that there is something
else going on underneath.
00:25:57.35\00:26:01.09
Dysphoria itself
is not a disorder,
00:26:01.12\00:26:04.36
but it is the
result of a disorder.
00:26:04.39\00:26:08.70
Absolutely, so
that really helped me
00:26:08.73\00:26:10.97
to understand
more what had happened.
00:26:11.00\00:26:13.27
I thought that I was
born in the wrong gender
00:26:13.30\00:26:15.77
and because of
my misunderstanding
00:26:15.80\00:26:17.31
of who God was,
00:26:17.34\00:26:18.67
I thought that He was either
playing a cruel joke or that,
00:26:18.71\00:26:21.98
you know, it just didn't matter.
00:26:22.01\00:26:24.45
And I remember, as a little kid,
00:26:24.48\00:26:26.31
not knowing how to fix it
00:26:26.35\00:26:27.88
but identifying with
what the problem was.
00:26:27.92\00:26:30.15
And there was a
depression that I was, I think,
00:26:30.19\00:26:33.02
used to denying
00:26:33.05\00:26:34.76
because, you know, I
was getting the wrong toys
00:26:34.79\00:26:36.52
for Christmas and birthdays
and I wanted the pretty dresses
00:26:36.56\00:26:39.56
like my sisters
got and their toys.
00:26:39.59\00:26:41.70
So when I got a GI
Joe and a Tonka Truck,
00:26:41.73\00:26:43.80
that just wasn't cutting it.
00:26:43.83\00:26:45.43
So, you know,
there's a lot of times
00:26:45.47\00:26:47.47
that I didn't realize until
I actually found your website,
00:26:47.50\00:26:50.81
you know, and I have
actually dialogued with you
00:26:50.84\00:26:53.58
that I realize
some of the things
00:26:53.61\00:26:55.71
that I had
repressed for so long.
00:26:55.74\00:26:57.98
So thank you
for this opportunity
00:26:58.01\00:26:59.95
to talk with you once again.
00:26:59.98\00:27:02.22
There's still so much more,
00:27:02.25\00:27:03.75
you know, to
discuss on this topic.
00:27:03.79\00:27:05.95
How is your life now?
00:27:05.99\00:27:07.62
What's your life like now?
00:27:07.66\00:27:08.99
Well, I'm sober
for almost 30 years,
00:27:09.02\00:27:11.26
married for almost 19 years,
00:27:11.29\00:27:13.26
and I get to
travel around the world
00:27:13.29\00:27:15.36
spreading the
Word about redemption
00:27:15.40\00:27:17.50
and restoration
through Jesus Christ.
00:27:17.53\00:27:19.33
So it can't get
much better than that.
00:27:19.37\00:27:21.24
Right, right.
00:27:21.27\00:27:22.60
So how busy are you now
with the transgender issue
00:27:22.64\00:27:24.77
being at the height?
00:27:24.81\00:27:26.14
Well, I'm very busy,
and that's really great.
00:27:26.17\00:27:29.94
The more I get to do
00:27:29.98\00:27:31.31
and the more I
can get the word out,
00:27:31.35\00:27:33.65
I know that I'm
serving Christ in this way.
00:27:33.68\00:27:35.98
And so that is really exciting.
00:27:36.02\00:27:38.12
But we're going
around the world,
00:27:38.15\00:27:39.49
we've been to
Italy and Australia
00:27:39.52\00:27:41.59
and many other
places spreading the Word.
00:27:41.62\00:27:43.86
Wonderful,
thank you again, Walt.
00:27:43.89\00:27:45.59
Thank you for
coming and talking with me
00:27:45.63\00:27:48.46
and with all of our viewers.
00:27:48.50\00:27:50.10
We want to welcome you back
00:27:50.13\00:27:51.47
to view all of our
programs here on Pure Choices.
00:27:51.50\00:27:54.84
And thanks again,
Walt, for being with us.
00:27:54.87\00:27:56.60
My pleasure.
00:27:56.64\00:27:57.97