This following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Welcome to Pure Choices.
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My name is Michael Carducci,
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and I'm with
Coming Out Ministries.
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Today, we're
going to be interviewing
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a friend of mine, Miguel Harris.
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Miguel, welcome.
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Thank you so much.
It's a privilege to be here.
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Yes, yes.
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You know, it's my delight
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to be able to hear
your story one more time,
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and I know, Miguel,
that for a young person
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to have come as far as you have
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through the history
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of what you
experienced as a little boy,
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all the way up to
how the Lord has done
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some miraculous
things in your life,
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it's exciting to
hear stories like yours.
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Amen. Yeah, so
let's get started.
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I want to talk a little
bit about when you were born,
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you know, what was the situation
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was with your mother and father,
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and how you came into the world?
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So I was brought
up in a broken home.
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My mother was an alcoholic,
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and my father left
her when I was a baby,
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so I never had the
opportunity to know my father,
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and have a
relationship with him.
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So were your parents married?
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They were not married.
They were just together.
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My mother was
19 when she had me,
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and my father is 13
years older than her.
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Okay. And...
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Sorry.
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So what part of your raising
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did your father
have to do with you?
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Actually, he didn't have any.
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Since I didn't know my
father from a young age,
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I would just see him come and go
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from five to six months periods,
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and just give me money,
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and that was all that
I had to know my father.
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So from the time
that you were born,
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your dad would
stop by occasionally
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and drop by some money,
like every five or six months.
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Yes, that's right.
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That's called
twice a year, right?
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Exactly. Correct. Okay.
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And my mother
was barely even home
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because she was an alcoholic,
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partying and drinking
was a casual thing for her.
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And there was times
where I didn't see my mother
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for two weeks or so.
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Two weeks at a time? Yes.
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And how old were you?
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I was four years
old, and she will leave me
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with my great grandmother home.
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And she will baby-sit me.
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And that's when
one of the incidents
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that happened in my life
that brought up, you know,
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this sexual
attraction later on in my life
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was that my grandmother
and I took a trip once
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to one of her friend's house.
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And I was just sitting there
in the living room with her.
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How old were you? I was about...
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Yes, I was four years old.
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Four years old. Okay.
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And so your mom is
gone, and now you're staying
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with your great grandmother.
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And so your
grandma is just taking you
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to one of her friend's house.
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Exactly. Okay.
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And I was tired
of seeing, you know,
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two old ladies just
talking in the living room,
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just like we are.
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Right.
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I just started to
go around the house...
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To be curious.
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And I noticed that there
was a door that was open.
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And I went inside this
room and there was a young man,
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and he was inviting me in.
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And he just told
me to get in the bed,
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and he started to
play with me and touch me.
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And I didn't know
what was going on.
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And then all of a
sudden, he was just, you know,
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he took advantage of me.
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Okay, how old was he?
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He was in his
teenage years, I can say.
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At least a teenager. At
least 13 years old or older.
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Okay.
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And the horrible reality
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is that he took
advantage sexually
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of a four year old boy.
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So what was your
reaction to this?
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Do you even remember it, Miguel?
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I remember it perfectly.
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Sometimes it just, you know,
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back when I used to
struggle with these thoughts,
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I remember it like it
happened just yesterday.
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And I didn't know
how to react to it.
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Okay. I just basically took it.
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I remember him telling
me to keep it a secret.
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And so I did that.
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Having an abusive mother,
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I didn't have anybody
to confide in and tell to.
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And I felt that
if I would tell her,
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coming from a home
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where I was
physically and verbally abused,
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I felt that if I would tell her
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that she would tell
me that it was my fault
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and physically abused
me, so I kept it a secret.
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Wow, at four years old, again,
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I think that
there's something to be said
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for the victim
mentality that it's my fault.
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You know, that seems to
be a reoccurring reaction
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to little children
that are molested and abused
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that it's my fault or that
I'm going to get in trouble
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if I say anything.
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And you held sad
because what that does
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is that protects
the violator, you know.
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So you couldn't go
to your grandmother,
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and your mom was gone.
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And talk a little bit
about what it was like
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living with your mom
with the alcohol in the home,
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and some of the
physical and verbal abuse.
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Oh, it was very tragic for me,
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especially at that
age because, you know,
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not having a father and
only having your mother,
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and her not being there
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as much as you would
want her to be there,
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it was very hard for me
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to be able to learn
how to function, you know,
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there was many
times where I just did
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whatever I wanted to
do because I had nobody
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to tell me right from wrong.
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No supervision. Exactly.
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And so for her to come
home and see me doing things
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that were wrong
in her side at least,
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things that sometimes I
was even ignorant about,
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and just physically
abuse me was just...
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It just didn't
make any sense for me.
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So that started a
hatred towards my mom.
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So from a young age, I
started to hate my mother
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and rejected her as
a role model as well.
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Okay, so now
there's some retaliation
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for the verbal and
the physical abuse.
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And now it's starting to show up
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that now you're
starting to have these
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negative
feelings towards your mom.
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So your mom was
coming and going,
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there were times
when you'd be left alone,
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what was going on
inside of your family life,
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you know, you told me
this story about one night
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when your
mother came home drunk.
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Can you just share
that to get an idea
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of the depth of what
the abuse was like for you?
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And tell me what age
you were when this happened?
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Yes, so something that
I perhaps didn't mention
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at the beginning
was that I was born
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in the Dominican Republic.
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Okay.
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I was staying with
my great grandmother
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since she was taking care of me,
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and she lived right in
front of my grandmother.
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And I was looking
through the cracks of the door,
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and I saw that my
mom was had to come home.
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And, you know, I
had such a long time
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since I didn't see
her that I just, you know,
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felt like I
needed to go out there
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and help her, and protect her.
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So she was drunk and I
wanted to get her to bed.
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And as I'm walking
her to her room, you know,
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I lay her down on her
bed, and she's just like,
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"Let me go
outside, let me go outside.
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I want to go drink again."
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And I'm just like,
"Mom, please stay in the bed."
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And she's like, "No,
no, you have to let me go."
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And I'm like, "Okay,
mom, I'll let you go,
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but please spend at
least an hour in bed."
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I'm just trying to calm her down
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so she will go to sleep.
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And then she just
reacts and holds me
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by the neck and tells me,
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"If you don't let
me go drink right now,
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I'm going to choke you."
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Okay, so she's got her
hands around your neck,
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and she says, "Let me
go or I'll choke you."
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Yeah.
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While she's choking me already.
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She's already choking. Yeah.
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And so I just, you know,
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called my grandmother,
and I said, "Help me!"
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And she comes into the
room and takes her off of me
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because she was
literally going to kill me.
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And I run out of the
room and she follows me.
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And then there's like a
table in between me and my mom,
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and she's giving me
this really mean look.
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And my grandmother had
no choice but to let her go
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because she just
cannot handle her.
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All right, so this
was just a onetime thing
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or was it something
that was in the relationship
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many times when
you were a little kid?
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That was the first time
that I experienced my mom
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doing that kind of
abuse like choking me.
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The other kind of abuse
that she would do was just
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instead of using a
rod, she would do anything
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that she will find,
she will hit me with it.
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Whether it was barbed
wire, cables, anything at all.
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Sometimes you will
see bruises on my back
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and everywhere on my body.
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It just looked like I
was very brutally abused.
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All right, so here
we have a little child,
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that's four years
old, and he is molested.
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And now you have
that constant abandonment
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of your mother,
who is an alcoholic,
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and then when
she does come home,
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the beatings are happening.
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Wasn't there also
some name calling?
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Yeah, many times I was
called sissy, queer, gay,
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you know, faggot,
the normal name calling
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that people will use.
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From who?
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From my mother and
also my grandmother.
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Basically,
everybody in my family.
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Wow, hang on a second.
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It's one thing to get that
from kids in the neighborhood,
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which is just as destructive,
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but now we're talking
about your family members,
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the people that are
in charge of your care,
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the ones that you love,
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that you really need
their affirmation the strongest.
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And the affirmation
that you're receiving
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from your mother
and your grandmother
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is that you're a
sissy, a queer, a faggot?
00:09:16.42\00:09:19.09
Yes, exactly.
00:09:19.12\00:09:20.49
Like you said,
yeah, it was enough
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that I was getting that
from my friends themselves.
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But, you know, getting
them from my grandmother,
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and my mother,
and everybody else,
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I remember one particular
time that stuck with me
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was that my
grandmother saw that I was just,
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you know, just
being normal in my ways
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with mannerisms and stuff.
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What were your mannerisms like?
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Well, I would pull down my shirt
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and put it over here.
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Off your shoulder.
00:09:47.28\00:09:48.62
Yeah, like resembling the
kind of clothing that women wear
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that is off their shoulder.
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And just walking very feminine,
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using my hands
like this many times.
00:09:55.19\00:09:57.63
And my grandmother goes,
00:09:57.66\00:09:59.16
"Why do you act
like a homosexual?
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Your father
wasn't a homosexual."
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And I'm just like,
"I never knew my father,
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so how can I know that?"
00:10:04.57\00:10:06.23
Okay, so about your dad,
00:10:06.27\00:10:07.60
remember you told me
that you were five years old,
00:10:07.64\00:10:10.41
and one day
00:10:10.44\00:10:11.77
you were just outside
playing, and somebody said,
00:10:11.81\00:10:13.31
"Oh, do you see
that? That's your father."
00:10:13.34\00:10:15.41
Exactly.
00:10:15.44\00:10:16.78
What was your reaction?
00:10:16.81\00:10:18.15
Well, I was just
in front of the house,
00:10:18.18\00:10:19.51
and he just pulled in.
00:10:19.55\00:10:20.88
And somebody, like you said,
00:10:20.92\00:10:22.25
pulling him out and
said, "That's your father."
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And I said, "Oh, that's my dad."
00:10:24.12\00:10:25.49
Like our relationship
was never, you know,
00:10:25.52\00:10:29.02
since we never
had a relationship,
00:10:29.06\00:10:30.46
to me to see my father was like,
00:10:30.49\00:10:33.83
you know, oh,
okay, another person.
00:10:33.86\00:10:35.70
Because since my
mother was an alcoholic
00:10:35.73\00:10:37.77
and she would
drink and party so much,
00:10:37.80\00:10:40.27
I got used to
seeing a lot of other men
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that were with her.
00:10:42.64\00:10:43.97
And she would tell
me, "Oh, that's your dad."
00:10:44.01\00:10:45.67
So I always got used to
the idea of having a new dad
00:10:45.71\00:10:48.71
every time she would bring
another man along with her.
00:10:48.74\00:10:50.95
Along with her.
00:10:50.98\00:10:52.31
You mean she
would bring him home?
00:10:52.35\00:10:54.28
Yes, she would bring
him home. Okay, all right.
00:10:54.32\00:10:55.88
So it's not just that
she's with another man,
00:10:55.92\00:10:58.39
she's not bringing them home,
00:10:58.42\00:10:59.82
and then every man
she's saying is your father.
00:10:59.85\00:11:01.82
Is my father.
00:11:01.86\00:11:03.19
So now this guy that
pulls up in the drive
00:11:03.22\00:11:04.56
and someone says,
"Oh, that's your dad."
00:11:04.59\00:11:05.93
You're like, "Okay, I guess..."
00:11:05.96\00:11:07.53
It just became
another one. Wow, wow.
00:11:07.56\00:11:11.70
You know it just seems
that there's no safety net
00:11:11.73\00:11:14.37
at all for you that
where's a safe place
00:11:14.40\00:11:17.51
for this little boy to
go when he can't even find
00:11:17.54\00:11:19.87
security and
safety with his mother
00:11:19.91\00:11:21.94
or even his nearest
relatives, his grandmother.
00:11:21.98\00:11:24.51
And then you have the situation
00:11:24.55\00:11:26.05
where the kids are not
only calling you names,
00:11:26.08\00:11:28.08
but your mother and
this physical abuse.
00:11:28.12\00:11:30.75
Miguel, how much of
this could you take?
00:11:30.79\00:11:33.49
Did it seem abnormal to you?
00:11:33.52\00:11:36.89
It didn't seem
normal because sometimes
00:11:36.93\00:11:39.73
I will see friends
who have normal families,
00:11:39.76\00:11:41.93
like a mom and a
dad, and they seem happy.
00:11:41.96\00:11:45.33
And it seem to me
that I couldn't have that
00:11:45.37\00:11:47.54
because I never had
it in the beginning,
00:11:47.57\00:11:49.24
so to me it was like
I was never going to.
00:11:49.27\00:11:52.17
So for instance, we
moved into the United States
00:11:52.21\00:11:55.84
when I was 10 years old.
00:11:55.88\00:11:57.21
My mother met a
man through the phone,
00:11:57.25\00:11:59.11
and then he started to
come to Dominican Republic,
00:11:59.15\00:12:02.35
and they started to
date, and later on became...
00:12:02.38\00:12:05.22
You know, got married.
00:12:05.25\00:12:06.59
And that's how we
came to the United States.
00:12:06.62\00:12:08.82
And so where were you living?
00:12:08.86\00:12:10.36
I was living in Connecticut.
00:12:10.39\00:12:11.76
And what happened there?
00:12:11.79\00:12:13.13
So one of the
things that happened there,
00:12:13.16\00:12:16.16
you know, when I lived
in the Dominican Republic,
00:12:16.20\00:12:18.70
I was already
going through broken home
00:12:18.73\00:12:20.60
all of my childhood.
00:12:20.64\00:12:22.57
Now moving into
the United States,
00:12:22.60\00:12:25.27
and living in Connecticut,
and having a father now,
00:12:25.31\00:12:28.74
I thought that things
were going to be perfect,
00:12:28.78\00:12:30.75
but it wasn't so.
00:12:30.78\00:12:32.11
My mother still had
a lot of anger issues.
00:12:32.15\00:12:33.88
And I remember one
night specifically she...
00:12:33.92\00:12:38.02
I heard a lot of noise,
00:12:38.05\00:12:39.75
and I'm just
like, "What's going on?"
00:12:39.79\00:12:41.12
And I'm in my room.
00:12:41.16\00:12:42.49
So I opened the door,
00:12:42.52\00:12:43.86
and my mother is
coming towards my room
00:12:43.89\00:12:45.23
with a knife in her hand.
00:12:45.26\00:12:46.59
And I'm thinking this for me.
00:12:46.63\00:12:47.96
You know, and I'm just like,
00:12:48.00\00:12:49.33
you know, "What's going on?"
00:12:49.36\00:12:50.70
And she was just
like, "Stay in your room"
00:12:50.73\00:12:52.07
with a very
angry look in her face.
00:12:52.10\00:12:53.44
And I'm just like,
you know, started crying.
00:12:53.47\00:12:56.37
And I just... I
want to follow her
00:12:56.40\00:12:57.84
but she's telling
me in a very mean way,
00:12:57.87\00:12:59.74
"Stay in the room."
00:12:59.77\00:13:01.11
So I stayed in the room.
With a knife in her hand.
00:13:01.14\00:13:02.48
Yes. Okay.
00:13:02.51\00:13:03.85
And I'm looking
out of the window,
00:13:03.88\00:13:05.28
and I see her following
my step dad with this knife,
00:13:05.31\00:13:07.75
you know, following him.
00:13:07.78\00:13:09.38
And she comes back to the house
00:13:09.42\00:13:10.85
and pinches all
four tires of his car,
00:13:10.89\00:13:13.05
so he cannot drive away.
00:13:13.09\00:13:14.52
So then he came back
later on in the night,
00:13:14.56\00:13:16.62
and he cut off our electricity.
00:13:16.66\00:13:18.86
So then we had to now
move into my aunt's house
00:13:18.89\00:13:21.40
and stay there.
00:13:21.43\00:13:22.76
So there I went
through broken home again.
00:13:22.80\00:13:24.83
Another one, right?
00:13:24.87\00:13:26.20
Another time to be reminded
00:13:26.23\00:13:27.67
that you're never going
to have this normal home.
00:13:27.70\00:13:29.57
Exactly. All right.
00:13:29.60\00:13:30.94
And so, there was a time
00:13:30.97\00:13:33.27
when you found some pornography.
00:13:33.31\00:13:35.48
Yes, exactly when I
was eight years old,
00:13:35.51\00:13:39.01
I said, and also masturbation.
00:13:39.05\00:13:43.79
When I was eight
years old, my mother,
00:13:43.82\00:13:45.92
you know, she read
a lot of comic books.
00:13:45.95\00:13:48.16
And even though people
think as pornography as,
00:13:48.19\00:13:50.83
you know, like a sex tape.
00:13:50.86\00:13:52.19
You know, pornography nowadays
I would say is everywhere.
00:13:52.23\00:13:54.33
You know, you cannot sell a car
00:13:54.36\00:13:55.70
without seeing a
woman half naked.
00:13:55.73\00:13:57.10
And to me, my
first view of pornography
00:13:57.13\00:13:59.73
was just comic books.
00:13:59.77\00:14:01.10
Seeing woman with big breasts
00:14:01.14\00:14:02.74
and man engaging
in sexual activity.
00:14:02.77\00:14:04.97
Hang on.
00:14:05.01\00:14:06.34
These aren't just comic books,
they're sexual comic books.
00:14:06.37\00:14:09.94
So there's a distinction
that we want to make there.
00:14:09.98\00:14:11.68
Okay, so that was
your first exposure.
00:14:11.71\00:14:13.78
And that put a stem to my mind.
00:14:13.82\00:14:16.18
Now living in the United States,
00:14:16.22\00:14:18.09
in middle school,
my friends talked about
00:14:18.12\00:14:20.22
masturbation and
pornography so often,
00:14:20.26\00:14:22.69
you know, at the
age of eight as well,
00:14:22.72\00:14:24.39
my friend invited me
to his house and told me,
00:14:24.43\00:14:28.06
you know, that he wanted
to show me something new,
00:14:28.10\00:14:29.70
and he
masturbated in front of me,
00:14:29.73\00:14:31.43
and then try to
compel me to do the same,
00:14:31.47\00:14:33.70
and I tried it as well.
00:14:33.74\00:14:35.07
So it's interesting.
00:14:35.10\00:14:36.44
You weren't in Christian school,
00:14:36.47\00:14:37.81
this was in public school. Yes.
00:14:37.84\00:14:39.17
And it's so cavalier
00:14:39.21\00:14:40.54
that people are just
talking about it openly
00:14:40.58\00:14:42.01
about pornography
and sexual activity.
00:14:42.04\00:14:45.18
So when did homosexuality
kind of take hold for you?
00:14:45.21\00:14:49.85
You know, coming
to the United States,
00:14:49.88\00:14:52.62
this is something
that is not acceptable
00:14:52.65\00:14:54.12
in my country.
00:14:54.16\00:14:55.99
Back then it wasn't
as much as it is now.
00:14:56.02\00:14:58.39
So, you know, this is
nothing but about be a manly.
00:14:58.43\00:15:00.96
And if you're not
manly, you're degraded
00:15:01.00\00:15:02.43
and almost like
shun away from society
00:15:02.46\00:15:04.27
and your own family.
00:15:04.30\00:15:05.63
Right, but you
were kind of set up...
00:15:05.67\00:15:07.14
Exactly.
00:15:07.17\00:15:08.50
Because here is your
mother and your grandmother
00:15:08.54\00:15:09.87
telling you that you're gay,
00:15:09.90\00:15:11.54
and that you're
sissy and all these things.
00:15:11.57\00:15:13.31
So when did that
really take hold for you
00:15:13.34\00:15:16.24
because, you
know, what's incredible
00:15:16.28\00:15:17.81
is that you're 22 years
old, but you've had a lot a life
00:15:17.85\00:15:20.42
that you've lived.
00:15:20.45\00:15:21.78
So now how old are you?
00:15:21.82\00:15:24.15
Now how old am I today?
00:15:24.19\00:15:25.55
No, like in this time period
00:15:25.59\00:15:27.46
where the homosexuality starts
to really kick in for you.
00:15:27.49\00:15:29.82
I was about 13
years old. Thirteen.
00:15:29.86\00:15:31.96
Yes, and, you know,
00:15:31.99\00:15:33.50
seeing how acceptable it
is here in the United States
00:15:33.53\00:15:35.70
opposed to my country,
00:15:35.73\00:15:37.37
I thought that it will be normal
00:15:37.40\00:15:38.73
to just, you
know, be who you are.
00:15:38.77\00:15:40.47
Because I thought
that these feelings
00:15:40.50\00:15:42.50
of same sex attraction
were identifying who I was.
00:15:42.54\00:15:45.07
All right.
00:15:45.11\00:15:46.44
And having people call me that,
00:15:46.47\00:15:47.81
you know, was
rooting it in even more.
00:15:47.84\00:15:49.74
Okay. So...
00:15:49.78\00:15:51.11
Well, I think that's
important to emphasize
00:15:51.15\00:15:53.52
that the fact that
people were calling me this,
00:15:53.55\00:15:55.82
it rooted it in even more.
00:15:55.85\00:15:57.42
Yes. Okay.
00:15:57.45\00:15:58.79
And so, I felt the need
to be accepted, you know.
00:15:58.82\00:16:01.42
You know, the Bible says
that our words have the power
00:16:01.46\00:16:04.13
of life and death.
00:16:04.16\00:16:05.49
Of life and death. That's right.
00:16:05.53\00:16:06.86
Proverbs 23:7 if
I'm not mistaking.
00:16:06.90\00:16:09.60
It says, "As you think
of in his heart, so is He."
00:16:09.63\00:16:12.43
So one night what I did
was I was tired of hiding
00:16:12.47\00:16:15.57
and, you know, in
the closet you would say,
00:16:15.60\00:16:17.71
and I went up to
the mirror and I said,
00:16:17.74\00:16:20.94
"I'm bisexual. I'm bisexual."
00:16:20.98\00:16:24.15
Was there anyone
else there with you?
00:16:24.18\00:16:25.71
I was alone.
00:16:25.75\00:16:27.08
So you're
talking into the mirror?
00:16:27.12\00:16:28.45
Into the mirror.
00:16:28.48\00:16:29.88
And you're just telling
yourself that I'm bisexual?
00:16:29.92\00:16:31.39
Yes.
00:16:31.42\00:16:32.75
And I felt like I needed
to call someone and tell them
00:16:32.79\00:16:34.82
so that I can see
if I'll be accepted.
00:16:34.86\00:16:37.83
And so I called my
friend, and she accepts me
00:16:37.86\00:16:40.33
and tells me that she
loves me, and she's happy now
00:16:40.36\00:16:42.30
that she has a gay friend
who she can go shopping with.
00:16:42.33\00:16:44.63
So, you know, I
was excited. Okay.
00:16:44.67\00:16:46.47
And so I wanted to
fully embrace it though
00:16:46.50\00:16:48.87
because I didn't
feel like I was bisexual.
00:16:48.90\00:16:51.07
So you knew
that it wasn't you...
00:16:51.11\00:16:53.24
You basically were
kind of covering yourself
00:16:53.27\00:16:55.81
with this label of bisexuality.
00:16:55.84\00:16:57.65
But now it's like,
"Well, if I'm free to be this,
00:16:57.68\00:17:00.98
then what's the next step?"
00:17:01.02\00:17:02.88
Exactly, and so
what I did was that
00:17:02.92\00:17:04.62
I went back to the
mirror, and I felt like
00:17:04.65\00:17:06.55
there was this dark
presence in the room
00:17:06.59\00:17:08.29
telling me, you know,
"Embrace it. You are gay."
00:17:08.32\00:17:10.39
And so I went back to
the mirror and I said,
00:17:10.43\00:17:11.96
"No, I'm gay, I'm gay."
00:17:11.99\00:17:15.86
And that just gave
me the freedom to go
00:17:15.90\00:17:18.67
and tell everybody
else that I was gay.
00:17:18.70\00:17:20.40
And I was just welcomed
00:17:20.44\00:17:21.77
with open arm
into the gay community.
00:17:21.80\00:17:23.20
Yeah, no resistance at all.
00:17:23.24\00:17:25.24
No resistance at all.
00:17:25.27\00:17:26.61
Okay, so talk about Tammy?
00:17:26.64\00:17:28.44
So I made a
wonderful friend named Tammy.
00:17:28.48\00:17:32.21
When I had come
to the United States
00:17:32.25\00:17:34.02
and I started to go to church,
00:17:34.05\00:17:36.58
as I mentioned, my
mother was an alcoholic,
00:17:36.62\00:17:38.45
but she took a year
off drinking alcohol
00:17:38.49\00:17:40.79
since she was
pregnant with my sister.
00:17:40.82\00:17:42.96
I was not interested
in going to church at all
00:17:42.99\00:17:44.66
because of some
past experiences going,
00:17:44.69\00:17:46.63
you know, off
the Catholic Church,
00:17:46.66\00:17:48.00
and just not
liking church at all.
00:17:48.03\00:17:49.86
But I just felt the need to go
00:17:49.90\00:17:51.90
and see if I can
find some friends.
00:17:51.93\00:17:54.27
So I felt so welcome
in this church, you know,
00:17:54.30\00:17:58.01
but I still was struggling
with same sex attraction.
00:17:58.04\00:18:01.44
And I didn't know the
answer of how the church...
00:18:01.48\00:18:05.71
Of how God can
change a homosexual
00:18:05.75\00:18:07.92
because it almost seemed
like the only thing was that
00:18:07.95\00:18:11.45
if you're gay,
you'll burn in hell and die.
00:18:11.49\00:18:14.26
Well, and how old are you now?
00:18:14.29\00:18:15.89
At that time I was
about 14 years old.
00:18:15.92\00:18:18.63
Fourteen, okay. Yes.
00:18:18.66\00:18:20.00
And so little by little,
00:18:20.03\00:18:21.46
I myself started
to leave the church
00:18:21.50\00:18:23.43
because of having to
take care of my little sister
00:18:23.47\00:18:26.94
and being alone.
00:18:26.97\00:18:28.30
My mother was not there anymore,
00:18:28.34\00:18:29.67
so I didn't have
her support anymore.
00:18:29.70\00:18:31.04
So help me understand,
00:18:31.07\00:18:32.64
your mother
started going to church,
00:18:32.67\00:18:34.34
and you were enjoying it,
and the whole family was going,
00:18:34.38\00:18:37.38
and then all of a
sudden about a year later
00:18:37.41\00:18:38.88
your mom drops
off, but you keep going
00:18:38.91\00:18:41.78
because you were
enjoying the socialization
00:18:41.82\00:18:44.62
and getting to
know who Jesus was,
00:18:44.65\00:18:46.05
and here's this
14, 15 year old boy
00:18:46.09\00:18:48.72
that's taking a
sister every week to church.
00:18:48.76\00:18:51.19
And so eventually
because you weren't getting
00:18:51.23\00:18:53.03
any kind of support that way,
have actually just tapered off.
00:18:53.06\00:18:56.23
Yes, and so struggling
with my same sex attractions,
00:18:56.26\00:19:00.90
you know, and
being accepted by society
00:19:00.94\00:19:02.70
and thinking in my head
00:19:02.74\00:19:04.07
that I was already
rejected by the church
00:19:04.11\00:19:06.07
even though they didn't know.
00:19:06.11\00:19:08.74
I just felt so welcome
that I went into the world,
00:19:08.78\00:19:11.41
and I did what I wanted to do.
00:19:11.45\00:19:13.01
So the church
rejected you, but the world...
00:19:13.05\00:19:15.65
Accepted me. And
they embraced you.
00:19:15.68\00:19:17.62
I remember one specific time
00:19:17.65\00:19:19.25
when I met with one
of the church members
00:19:19.29\00:19:22.22
and they told me that
if I didn't give this up,
00:19:22.26\00:19:23.86
I was going to hell.
00:19:23.89\00:19:25.23
So I felt that was my,
you know, my only solution
00:19:25.26\00:19:27.23
was to just live my life
because the outcome was hell.
00:19:27.26\00:19:30.37
So instead of
pulling you into the church,
00:19:30.40\00:19:32.90
what it did is
it pushed you out.
00:19:32.93\00:19:34.27
Exactly.
00:19:34.30\00:19:35.64
Okay, so now you're
doing the club scene,
00:19:35.67\00:19:37.81
and bring Tammy into
the picture if you would?
00:19:37.84\00:19:40.54
And so Tammy,
00:19:40.58\00:19:42.91
she was a very big
example in my life.
00:19:42.94\00:19:45.35
Even though I was
living this lifestyle
00:19:45.38\00:19:46.92
which she did not
approve of, she always loved me,
00:19:46.95\00:19:49.82
she told me that she did love me
00:19:49.85\00:19:51.39
even though she
didn't accept this.
00:19:51.42\00:19:52.95
Now help me...
00:19:52.99\00:19:55.06
I just want to paint the picture
00:19:55.09\00:19:56.62
for the people
that are listening
00:19:56.66\00:19:57.99
because I know your story.
00:19:58.03\00:19:59.36
Tammy was a thug
in your neighborhood.
00:19:59.39\00:20:01.26
She was a thug
when I first met her
00:20:01.30\00:20:02.76
when I was 10 years old...
00:20:02.80\00:20:04.13
Ten years old. Yes.
00:20:04.17\00:20:05.50
Right, so but she became
00:20:05.53\00:20:06.87
the mama for the
neighborhood, isn't that right?
00:20:06.90\00:20:08.24
Yes, she did.
00:20:08.27\00:20:09.60
'Cause I think of
Carol's story as well.
00:20:09.64\00:20:10.97
But, so here we got Mama Tammy,
00:20:11.01\00:20:12.34
who's about as big as my finger,
00:20:12.37\00:20:13.71
so she's a tiny little person,
00:20:13.74\00:20:15.18
but a very
loving and caring person
00:20:15.21\00:20:18.25
that's a thug.
00:20:18.28\00:20:19.61
Yes. All right.
00:20:19.65\00:20:20.98
Many times that I was
kicked out of my house,
00:20:21.02\00:20:22.35
I was always
welcome into her house.
00:20:22.38\00:20:23.92
So I guess that those instances
00:20:23.95\00:20:26.19
just build confidence in knowing
00:20:26.22\00:20:28.16
that whenever I will
struggle with something,
00:20:28.19\00:20:29.66
I can go to her.
00:20:29.69\00:20:31.03
To Tammy, and
you'd sleep on the floor,
00:20:31.06\00:20:32.96
she'd feed you food.
00:20:32.99\00:20:34.33
Yes. Okay.
00:20:34.36\00:20:35.70
And going through my
last same sex relationship
00:20:35.73\00:20:39.13
with this boy that was
very bipolar, you know...
00:20:39.17\00:20:41.74
How old were you?
00:20:41.77\00:20:43.10
I was now 17 years old. Okay.
00:20:43.14\00:20:46.34
And I had gone through
00:20:46.37\00:20:48.44
many breakups in my life before,
00:20:48.48\00:20:49.98
but I was tired of,
you know, breaking up.
00:20:50.01\00:20:52.21
I wanted to be happy
and be with someone forever,
00:20:52.25\00:20:55.28
but it just didn't seem
that was possible from me,
00:20:55.32\00:20:57.22
so I was trying
to make it possible
00:20:57.25\00:20:59.75
even though it
wasn't working out.
00:20:59.79\00:21:01.89
And last time we had a fight,
00:21:01.92\00:21:03.49
you know, he was threatening me,
00:21:03.53\00:21:05.23
and verbally saying
bad things about me.
00:21:05.26\00:21:08.00
And I don't feel
comfortable with those things,
00:21:08.03\00:21:09.40
so I told him I'm done,
you know, I'm leaving this.
00:21:09.43\00:21:12.63
I had already gone through
00:21:12.67\00:21:14.00
too much depression and anxiety,
00:21:14.04\00:21:15.77
and, you know, to have
that going on in my life
00:21:15.80\00:21:17.64
that was not working,
00:21:17.67\00:21:19.01
it was just like
this is not for me.
00:21:19.04\00:21:20.51
So I left his house
crying and devastated.
00:21:20.54\00:21:23.48
And Tammy only lived a
block away from his house.
00:21:23.51\00:21:26.31
She never knew
this was going on.
00:21:26.35\00:21:27.68
Right. But hang on a second.
00:21:27.72\00:21:29.55
Something happened
between the time you were ten
00:21:29.58\00:21:31.75
to this thug
00:21:31.79\00:21:33.12
that was this mother
in your neighborhood,
00:21:33.15\00:21:34.49
and now you're 17?
00:21:34.52\00:21:35.86
Yes, I'm 17.
00:21:35.89\00:21:37.23
Okay, so what happened
in Tammy's life between that
00:21:37.26\00:21:39.19
that made a difference for you?
00:21:39.23\00:21:41.30
What do you mean exactly?
00:21:41.33\00:21:42.66
She's a Christian now, right?
Yes, she's a Christian now.
00:21:42.70\00:21:44.53
Well, that's the part that's so
I think important to emphasize
00:21:44.57\00:21:48.20
because Tammy still was
this neighborhood mother,
00:21:48.24\00:21:51.21
but now she knew Jesus Christ.
00:21:51.24\00:21:52.81
Yes. Okay.
00:21:52.84\00:21:54.18
So talk about that now
when you show up at her door
00:21:54.21\00:21:55.68
and here you are heartbroken
00:21:55.71\00:21:57.35
that your boyfriend's
broken up with you again,
00:21:57.38\00:21:59.18
and you're frustrated,
00:21:59.21\00:22:00.55
and you're tired of
all of this rejection.
00:22:00.58\00:22:02.88
What was her reaction to you?
00:22:02.92\00:22:04.62
I knocked on her door,
and she just looked at me.
00:22:04.65\00:22:07.06
And as soon as she looked at me,
00:22:07.09\00:22:08.42
I just stopped
and started to cry.
00:22:08.46\00:22:10.83
And she welcomed me
into her home, sat me down,
00:22:10.86\00:22:13.60
gave me some water,
some tissues to wipe my tears
00:22:13.63\00:22:16.13
and my snot.
00:22:16.16\00:22:18.93
And she just told
me to explain to her
00:22:18.97\00:22:20.80
what happened.
00:22:20.84\00:22:22.44
She didn't know any of
this that was going on.
00:22:22.47\00:22:24.84
And this was only a
block from her house.
00:22:24.87\00:22:27.08
And I told her I worn
out. I don't want this anymore.
00:22:27.11\00:22:30.15
This is not for me.
00:22:30.18\00:22:31.71
And from that day on,
00:22:31.75\00:22:34.12
I found that she
was praying for me
00:22:34.15\00:22:35.82
all along, her and her
husband, and I had no idea.
00:22:35.85\00:22:39.19
So they'd been
praying for you. Yes.
00:22:39.22\00:22:40.79
What was her response to you
00:22:40.82\00:22:42.16
when you said I worn out,
I don't want this anymore?
00:22:42.19\00:22:44.83
She just simply looked at
me with this peaceful face,
00:22:44.86\00:22:49.40
and at the same
time, worry, you know,
00:22:49.43\00:22:51.20
because she hadn't
known what was going on
00:22:51.23\00:22:53.77
all along in my life.
00:22:53.80\00:22:55.37
But she helped me
through since that day on.
00:22:55.40\00:22:58.17
And she told me, you know,
00:22:58.21\00:22:59.54
go back to his
house, get your clothes,
00:22:59.57\00:23:00.91
and come back,
you're staying here.
00:23:00.94\00:23:02.78
So Mama Tammy, it
opened up the door,
00:23:02.81\00:23:05.05
and now she led
you to Jesus Christ?
00:23:05.08\00:23:07.38
Yes, she did.
00:23:07.42\00:23:08.75
She helped me to know Him,
and to accept Him into my life.
00:23:08.78\00:23:12.95
I was once looking for a job,
and I didn't know what to do.
00:23:12.99\00:23:17.09
So I'm just applying in
all these different places,
00:23:17.13\00:23:19.26
but I'm not
getting accepted at all.
00:23:19.29\00:23:21.60
And one night
coming back home from party
00:23:21.63\00:23:24.23
and then doing my thing still.
00:23:24.27\00:23:27.14
I get like 30 calls on my phone,
00:23:27.17\00:23:29.04
and I'm just
like, "Whoa, who died?"
00:23:29.07\00:23:30.51
You know, and so I looked
on my phone and it was her.
00:23:30.54\00:23:33.21
And I called her
back and I'm like, "Hey."
00:23:33.24\00:23:34.91
And she's like,
"I got a job for you
00:23:34.94\00:23:36.51
at a Seventh-day
Adventist summer camp."
00:23:36.54\00:23:37.88
And I'm like, "What?"
00:23:37.91\00:23:39.25
She's like, "Yeah,
you start tomorrow.
00:23:39.28\00:23:40.62
When do you want to leave?"
00:23:40.65\00:23:41.98
I said, "I'll leave right now."
00:23:42.02\00:23:43.35
You know, so I packed my clothes
00:23:43.39\00:23:44.72
and I just left.
00:23:44.75\00:23:46.09
And... So hang on a second,
00:23:46.12\00:23:47.46
so people
understand the picture.
00:23:47.49\00:23:48.82
We look at you now,
00:23:48.86\00:23:50.19
and you look
together, you look like somebody
00:23:50.23\00:23:52.26
who never
struggled with anything
00:23:52.29\00:23:53.63
that had a perfect family,
00:23:53.66\00:23:55.23
but at that time, you had hair
00:23:55.26\00:23:57.07
down past your
shoulders, isn't that right?
00:23:57.10\00:23:59.07
You were curling your hair
in your mother's hair salon.
00:23:59.10\00:24:02.60
So you had this
androgyny look going on,
00:24:02.64\00:24:05.21
and you were a dancer in a bar,
00:24:05.24\00:24:07.64
and now all of a
sudden, she's got you a job
00:24:07.68\00:24:10.05
at a Seventh-day
Adventists summer camp.
00:24:10.08\00:24:12.81
Yes, exactly.
00:24:12.85\00:24:15.38
Doesn't that
sound bizarre to you?
00:24:15.42\00:24:16.75
It does sound
bizarre to just see like
00:24:16.79\00:24:18.85
where you've come from.
00:24:18.89\00:24:20.26
And, you know, I was a
dancer, like you mentioned,
00:24:20.29\00:24:23.63
and, you know, just being sucked
00:24:23.66\00:24:25.29
into that world
was a disaster for me.
00:24:25.33\00:24:28.56
So we have just a
few more minutes left,
00:24:28.60\00:24:30.43
and I really
want you to talk about
00:24:30.47\00:24:32.20
how you embraced Jesus Christ,
00:24:32.23\00:24:33.57
and what that's
like for you now, Miguel?
00:24:33.60\00:24:36.54
Well, you know, going
through that experience,
00:24:36.57\00:24:38.64
going to the summer camp,
00:24:38.67\00:24:41.04
I was there to
minister to children.
00:24:41.08\00:24:42.61
I myself was broken,
00:24:42.64\00:24:43.98
I'm like, "How am
I going to do this?"
00:24:44.01\00:24:45.35
But God provided
that opportunity,
00:24:45.38\00:24:47.32
so that I can now
be minister on to.
00:24:47.35\00:24:50.05
And these
children were telling me
00:24:50.09\00:24:51.62
about their love for Jesus.
00:24:51.65\00:24:52.99
Oh, that's fantastic.
00:24:53.02\00:24:54.36
They would sing
to Jesus and pray,
00:24:54.39\00:24:55.82
and I'm just like,
"Lord, I want that for you."
00:24:55.86\00:24:58.49
Wait, the Bible says,
00:24:58.53\00:25:00.40
"And a little
child shall lead them."
00:25:00.43\00:25:02.43
Was that your experience?
00:25:02.46\00:25:03.80
That was exactly my experience.
00:25:03.83\00:25:05.17
All right, so,
Miguel, where are you now?
00:25:05.20\00:25:07.17
You're 22 years old.
00:25:07.20\00:25:08.74
You've got your
whole life ahead of you,
00:25:08.77\00:25:10.67
and you've lived a
whole life before you.
00:25:10.71\00:25:12.54
What's it like
walking with Jesus?
00:25:12.57\00:25:14.08
Now all of those
feelings are gone now?
00:25:14.11\00:25:16.08
Like was there a
switch that flipped
00:25:16.11\00:25:17.95
and now you're
totally on the other side?
00:25:17.98\00:25:20.72
What's it like for a young man
00:25:20.75\00:25:22.82
that's come from
that struggle today?
00:25:22.85\00:25:25.85
It is an amazing experience.
00:25:25.89\00:25:27.72
I can say that
this is the best choice
00:25:27.76\00:25:29.52
that I've ever made in my life
00:25:29.56\00:25:30.89
is to let go and let
God come into my life,
00:25:30.93\00:25:33.46
and be what I
needed my mother to be,
00:25:33.50\00:25:37.07
my father to be,
00:25:37.10\00:25:38.43
because now my
heavenly Father is my father.
00:25:38.47\00:25:42.04
And He takes care of
everything or need that I have.
00:25:42.07\00:25:45.97
And now I just
find joy in serving Him,
00:25:46.01\00:25:48.94
and serving others.
00:25:48.98\00:25:50.31
My modus is of not...
00:25:50.35\00:25:51.68
Are not any more self-centered
00:25:51.71\00:25:53.05
in looking on to what I
want for my own happiness,
00:25:53.08\00:25:55.58
but for what others
need for their happiness.
00:25:55.62\00:25:58.75
And I just find
joy in serving God.
00:25:58.79\00:26:00.99
And I'm acting in
an aggressive service,
00:26:01.02\00:26:05.19
such as, you know, canvassing
00:26:05.23\00:26:06.83
or mission work to help
others in their needs too.
00:26:06.86\00:26:09.76
Right, and so, Miguel,
00:26:09.80\00:26:11.33
what I really want
to help other people
00:26:11.37\00:26:12.90
that may be
watching is what do you do
00:26:12.93\00:26:15.17
when the struggle comes back?
00:26:15.20\00:26:16.71
What do you do when the
thoughts inside your head
00:26:16.74\00:26:19.34
start banging on
that door saying,
00:26:19.37\00:26:21.31
"We want in."
00:26:21.34\00:26:22.68
How is it that
you hold together now?
00:26:22.71\00:26:24.81
Talk to me about that?
00:26:24.85\00:26:26.58
You know, reading
the Bible has relieved me
00:26:26.61\00:26:30.39
from a lot of things,
00:26:30.42\00:26:31.75
you know, coming to know Jesus
00:26:31.79\00:26:33.12
and who He is has just
relieved me from a lot.
00:26:33.15\00:26:35.39
And what I do now
is that I look to Him,
00:26:35.42\00:26:38.66
and I claim a promise.
00:26:38.69\00:26:40.03
And I tell Him,
"Personally, Lord, I am weak."
00:26:40.06\00:26:42.66
I have to admit that I am weak.
00:26:42.70\00:26:44.70
And tell Him,
but you are strong.
00:26:44.73\00:26:46.20
And I know that you can do it.
00:26:46.23\00:26:47.80
And so, Lord, I'm just asking
00:26:47.84\00:26:49.17
that You may work through me,
00:26:49.20\00:26:50.54
and that You may
help me, you know,
00:26:50.57\00:26:52.41
and the Bible says it
in the Book of James 2.
00:26:52.44\00:26:55.84
It says, "The devil
and he will flee from you.
00:26:55.88\00:26:57.91
Draw nigh to God, and
He would draw nigh to you."
00:26:57.95\00:26:59.75
And so, I go to my savior,
00:26:59.78\00:27:01.82
and get away
from this temptation
00:27:01.85\00:27:04.75
instead of feeding into it.
00:27:04.79\00:27:06.32
And the Lord just helps me.
00:27:06.35\00:27:08.92
And when it comes
back the second time,
00:27:08.96\00:27:11.19
He prepares me for it,
00:27:11.23\00:27:12.56
so that I can be much stronger
to meet this temptation.
00:27:12.59\00:27:15.33
And so it's a
growing process, you know,
00:27:15.36\00:27:17.87
that you have to go through.
00:27:17.90\00:27:19.23
It's not just
like a light switch,
00:27:19.27\00:27:20.60
you just turn it on and off.
00:27:20.64\00:27:21.97
I'm not one day gay,
00:27:22.00\00:27:23.84
and then the other
next day, you know,
00:27:23.87\00:27:25.21
these feelings are gone.
00:27:25.24\00:27:26.57
This has been a battle,
00:27:26.61\00:27:27.94
but you have to recognize
that Jesus already won the war.
00:27:27.98\00:27:30.71
Thank you. All
right, praise Him.
00:27:30.75\00:27:32.65
That's fantastic.
00:27:32.68\00:27:34.02
You know, we're
almost out of time.
00:27:34.05\00:27:35.88
And I think it's
important to even share
00:27:35.92\00:27:37.65
that you've even
had reconciliation
00:27:37.69\00:27:39.19
with your father,
00:27:39.22\00:27:40.56
and you found forgiveness
there too, isn't that right?
00:27:40.59\00:27:42.52
Yes. That's amazing.
00:27:42.56\00:27:43.89
God is amazing.
00:27:43.93\00:27:45.26
And for the
transformation in your life
00:27:45.29\00:27:47.03
by making pure choices.
00:27:47.06\00:27:48.93
We hope that you'll
come back and join us again.
00:27:48.96\00:27:50.77
We have many more stories
of overcoming victory for you.
00:27:50.80\00:27:54.84
And we welcome you again,
00:27:54.87\00:27:56.20
and we'll see you
soon on Pure Choices.
00:27:56.24\00:27:58.47