This following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Welcome to Pure Choices.
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My name is Michael Carducci,
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and I'm here with my colleagues
from Coming Out Ministries,
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Pastor Ron Woolsey
and also Wayne Blakely.
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Thanks for coming, guys.
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Yes, it's great to be here.
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It's an incredible
opportunity to just sit together
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and talk about our new
identities in Jesus Christ.
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And, you know, one of the things
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that we find tends
to be very significant
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is that people
wonder where we are.
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And, you know,
this is not probably
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the number one
question that we get.
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So what we want to
talk about today is
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we want to talk about
how it is that we identify,
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and what kind of
descriptions or do we put,
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you know, with that
name of our new identity.
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And so from multiple
angles and various entities,
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the world often
operates from a reference
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to someone's sexual orientation.
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Ron, you're a pastor
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with a good
knowledge of God's Word.
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I understand that God
created us male and female,
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but that's
gender, not orientation.
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Where in the Bible does God talk
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about our sexual orientation?
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You know, I've never found
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where the Bible talks
about sexual orientation,
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but the Bible does
talk about orientation.
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Jesus talks about two
paths that we may follow.
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And having been a
pilot in my earlier days,
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if I focused on my
orientation of myself,
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I would never have
landed in the right place.
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Orientation is based
upon your destination.
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And in these two paths
that Jesus talks about,
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there is a broad way
that leads to destruction,
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and there's a narrow
way which leads to life.
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So the orientation
that Bible speaks about
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is about your
destination, not about yourself.
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So, Wayne, where
does this all begin?
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Where do we start talking
about sexual orientation?
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How did that begin?
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Yeah, you know, I
began to get a little
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bothered by the
fact that somebody
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kept referring to
sexual orientation.
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And like Ron, I couldn't find
references to it in God's Word.
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But what I did
find in my research
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that the surfacing of
the term sexual orientation
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didn't come about
until the early 1960s
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after the sex research
that Alfred Kinsey had done.
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And what he did was he coined
the phrase sexual orientation,
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and then as teaching began
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about sex
education in the schools,
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both public schools
and Christian schools,
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they adopted this
term sexual orientation.
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So one of the things
that I think many people
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that have our
history, that have come from
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has they truly question
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what their sexual orientation is
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and about their right to that?
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I know that we all identified
as gay for many years.
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And in that, we said
that we were born that way
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to discourage any
more discussion about it
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or some of us
actually believe that
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that was our orientation
and an entitlement to it.
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So, Ron, any idea
where that came about,
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that we have a right
to sexual orientation?
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I believe it has to do
with taking our eyes off Jesus,
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and having our focus
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really upside down God's way.
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And the law of God is
based upon loving God supremely,
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loving others ahead of
yourself, yourself last.
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When we're focusing
upon sexual orientation,
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again we're focusing inward,
we're not putting God first.
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God has expressed
very clearly how He feels,
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what He thinks,
what He has created.
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And if we are really,
truly oriented to God,
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we are not going
to be focusing upon
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our own fallen
human nature feelings,
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and emotions, and tendencies.
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Okay, so help me
with something, Ron.
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Make it practical if you would.
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Tell me how that transition
was for you personally because,
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you know, we can
talk theologically
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and as far as like
what the Word of God says,
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but how did that
translate for you,
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someone who turned
their back on homosexuality,
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and is married
with children now.
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How was that
for you that you put
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God supreme and denied yourself?
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Well, for me to find an
escape from this bondage,
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and I really
felt it was bondage.
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I hated my life.
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My life of sin,
and shame, and stigma.
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And to really find
my way out of that,
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I really just had to
let God lead me and accept
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that He is a loving
Father, that He knows best,
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that if I would
follow His plan for my life,
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it would be much
better than my own plan
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for my life because
I could not see the end
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from the
beginning, but He could.
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And it really is
as simple as trusting
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that He knows best
in patterning your life
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after what He has
counseled us to follow.
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Okay.
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And so, Wayne, you
know, I really struggled
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because I know that there's
a lot of people out there
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that were in our situation
or are in our situation,
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and they really want to even
understand that for themselves.
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And I think that
there's a lot of confusion
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and each one of us have gone
through our own path that way.
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Wayne, give me a
practical understanding
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of how that
transition was for you?
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It wasn't until
I actually met you
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that I even bothered to care
about what my orientation was.
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I don't care if you
call ex-gay, whatever.
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But it was very
important to you,
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and would you just
share that practically
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with people that
might be listening?
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I think it really
got personal for me
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when I was given the opportunity
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to share my
testimony for the first time.
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And the lady who had helped
bring about my conversion,
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I looked at her and
I said, "So who am I?"
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And she said,
"Oh, you're still gay."
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And I said, "No,
that doesn't compute."
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Why would I have gone
through what I went through
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to surrender
everything over to Jesus Christ
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and still
maintain the same identity?
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That doesn't make sense to me.
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And so I found eventually
that I'm a new creature
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in Jesus Christ,
2 Corinthians 5:17.
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I begin to find the
joy in the Word of God,
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and who it tells me I am today.
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So it's interesting.
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Dr. Michael Brown,
who talks a lot about
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the gay issue in
Christianity, he also says that
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this wasn't even an
issue about gay rights
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and about the gay
translation of the Bible
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until the sexual revolution,
which was actually begun
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by the research
that Alfred Kinsey did.
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So, Wayne, is it possible
that we've drifted so far away
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from God's plan over
maybe hundreds of years
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or even just a few
decades that society has adopted
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the idea that
everyone has a right to sex?
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I think we need to consider that
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because of the implications
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and the counterfeits
that Satan brings about.
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And he does it in such a way
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that he doesn't
think we'll recognize.
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A book was written
about True Sexual Morality
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by Daniel Heimbach,
and he had this to say.
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I found it was
pretty intriguing.
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He says, "The
gradual slide toward paganism
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starts when a
person still committed
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to the Bible
entertains dissatisfaction
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with something
God says about sex,
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and a single logic
connects a series of steps
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that extend from
sliding ever so slightly
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from biblical teaching
at one end of the full-scale
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attack on biblical
morality on the other.
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Letting dissatisfaction fester
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sparks interest
in ways to soften
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or remove the
offending biblical teaching.
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At first, it does this in ways
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that do not challenge
authority of scripture
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but only try to
change its meaning."
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And so, to me, this began,
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okay, here we go
with hermeneutics.
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And so, I think
that Mr. Heimbach goes on
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in this book to talk about
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how the shaping
of Christian morality
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has switched to what
the culture is today,
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and it destroys the
respect for the Bible.
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Okay, so in recent history,
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how is it that we've
become so hung up on sex
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and sexual identity?
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Well, thankfully
there's more than one person
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writing about this today.
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And another person,
Linda Bartlett has written
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in a book called The Failure
of Sex Education in the Church.
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She points out to us
that holy is not sexy.
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God calls us to holiness.
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She says we are
more than sexual beings,
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we are spiritual
beings, body, mind, and soul.
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Therefore more
important than educating
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in all knowledge of sexuality
is the teaching of identity
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and salvation in Jesus Christ.
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And so after I gave my
life over to Jesus Christ,
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I had to say to
myself, so who am I today,
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and so I today
can joyfully say that
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I'm a new
creature in Jesus Christ.
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Okay, all right.
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So, Ron, what's the big deal?
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Does it really
matter how we identify
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whether you're a gay
Christian, an ex-gay,
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a gay Seventh-day Adventist,
isn't it just semantics?
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Well, that's probably a
good question to ask my wife.
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But she's not here, so
I'll try to answer for her.
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I think she would
be very disappointed
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and very surprised if
she heard me identifying
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as a non-practicing gay.
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When she tells
her side of our story,
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which she calls the real story.
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She talks about how she knew me
before went into the gay life.
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And there was no
indication whatsoever to her
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or her friends that I was
gay, and she knew about me
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throughout my gay life as being
a good friend with my sisters.
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And when I came back
to the Lord, she said,
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"I knew if he was
coming back to the Lord,
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he would be what I knew
him to be before he went away."
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She has never
thought of me as gay
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or as a non-practicing gay.
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And I don't think of
myself in that term either
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because that to me is
negative reinforcement.
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I turned my
back on that totally.
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I immerse myself in a new life.
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And I decided that if I am to
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ever have sexual fulfillment
or intimacy in my life,
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it can only be in the
way God has designed it
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or I will do without.
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And so with that mindset
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for the last 24 years,
and 23 years of marriage,
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I don't go around
with the term heterosexual,
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homosexual,
ex-gay, non-practicing.
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I'm just me living a
new life with a wife,
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and children, and ministry,
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and now I don't
think in those terms.
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So I think these
labels can really
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actually inhibit our
growth with the Lord.
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Wow, Ron, thank you for
making yourself so transparent
00:11:14.97\00:11:18.94
on that issue because
I think a lot of people
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misunderstand that just
because that was your history
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and now that you're
living in a relationship
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where you're
married to a woman and have,
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you know, a family
again, a lot of us want to know,
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like, was that a
light switch, you know?
00:11:32.22\00:11:34.69
Wayne and I, who
are still single,
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it's been many years for me,
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and while we still struggle
with same sex attraction,
00:11:37.96\00:11:41.10
we still don't
live in that lifestyle,
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we don't live in
that understanding,
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and we're learning
the process of denying
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those things that
call us from the past.
00:11:48.54\00:11:50.94
And so, Wayne,
what's the big deal?
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Why is this so
important to understand
00:11:52.87\00:11:55.68
this post conversion identity?
00:11:55.71\00:11:58.21
Well, I think it's important
to somebody, especially,
00:11:58.25\00:12:01.08
we reach out to people
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who are looking at unwanted
same sex attraction, all right?
00:12:02.48\00:12:06.42
So we're starting
to look at somebody
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who is looking to see if
they can be somebody else
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other than what their
attractions are telling them.
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So why would you
want to secure yourself
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in the fact you're gay.
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The only reason you come out
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and tell yourself or
tell the world that you're gay
00:12:21.27\00:12:23.71
is because you've been convinced
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that your feelings equal truth.
00:12:25.57\00:12:27.74
But the Word of
God tells us that
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if we're not
practicing or for not being
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led by the
temptations into the behavior,
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we don't have to identify by it,
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we can share with somebody.
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"Yes, please pray for me.
I have same sex attraction."
00:12:39.12\00:12:42.39
But I can be
somebody not identified
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by my temptations, know.
00:12:45.26\00:12:46.59
We don't...
00:12:46.63\00:12:47.96
You don't call
yourself a non-practicing thief
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or a non-practicing adulterer
or whatever the case may be,
00:12:49.70\00:12:53.47
but somehow we've
locked into society
00:12:53.50\00:12:57.11
with this idea that
once gay, always gay.
00:12:57.14\00:13:00.11
So even in a post
conversion experience,
00:13:00.14\00:13:02.31
we're still telling
somebody that they're gay.
00:13:02.34\00:13:04.58
Okay, so what I
pick up from that again
00:13:04.61\00:13:07.42
is one of the
issues that I really...
00:13:07.45\00:13:09.48
Not offended by,
but really turned off by
00:13:09.52\00:13:12.19
was the fact that,
00:13:12.22\00:13:13.56
"Listen, you're still
trying to put a label on me."
00:13:13.59\00:13:15.56
You know, if we
don't have label...
00:13:15.59\00:13:17.39
If one of the things
that we're trying to do is
00:13:17.43\00:13:18.76
get away from
the labels, you know,
00:13:18.79\00:13:20.86
why would you want to
even be called a gay Christian
00:13:20.90\00:13:24.23
when I want to be inclusive
to the body of Christianity.
00:13:24.27\00:13:27.47
And if there's not
exclusions for different sins
00:13:27.50\00:13:30.01
and different temptations,
00:13:30.04\00:13:31.97
then why would I
want to be singled out
00:13:32.01\00:13:34.11
once again with another
label called gay Christian.
00:13:34.14\00:13:37.68
Okay, and so that's something
that's very personal to me.
00:13:37.71\00:13:41.52
So it sounds like there's a lack
00:13:41.55\00:13:43.02
of biblically based instruction.
00:13:43.05\00:13:45.39
And so what I
really want to touch on now
00:13:45.42\00:13:47.02
is by continuing to
identify as gay Christian
00:13:47.06\00:13:51.23
or homosexual Christian,
00:13:51.26\00:13:52.79
what we continue
to do, I believe,
00:13:52.83\00:13:55.06
is to drop off
temptation which God says
00:13:55.10\00:13:58.30
that behavior is an abomination.
00:13:58.33\00:14:00.77
And so if we're
continuing to connect that
00:14:00.80\00:14:04.04
to our identity in Jesus Christ,
00:14:04.07\00:14:05.74
then I believe that
what we continue to do
00:14:05.77\00:14:08.14
is connect ourselves
to that understanding
00:14:08.18\00:14:10.81
and make Jesus power impudent.
00:14:10.85\00:14:13.72
So, Ron, could you elaborate
on that, maybe a little bit?
00:14:13.75\00:14:17.79
When I left my life
in the world years ago,
00:14:17.82\00:14:23.76
homosexuality was
just one of the vices.
00:14:23.79\00:14:27.53
I turned my back on smoking,
and drinking, and drugs,
00:14:27.56\00:14:30.67
and many other things.
00:14:30.70\00:14:33.60
And so I don't go around today
00:14:33.64\00:14:37.47
telling people that I'm
a non-practicing pothead.
00:14:37.51\00:14:41.81
I'm a pothead Christian
00:14:41.84\00:14:44.38
or that I'm a lusting
Christian but non-practicing.
00:14:44.41\00:14:47.88
We were addressing a
group of ministers a while back,
00:14:47.92\00:14:50.39
and one of the questions
that I posted to them was this,
00:14:50.42\00:14:54.12
"Suppose I come to
you and I say, you know,
00:14:54.16\00:14:56.79
'I'm a
non-practicing pedophile,'
00:14:56.83\00:14:59.29
is there a place
for me in your church?
00:14:59.33\00:15:01.30
Oh, and by the
way I really enjoy
00:15:01.33\00:15:02.73
working with young people."
00:15:02.76\00:15:05.27
Do you...
00:15:05.30\00:15:06.63
How would you feel
if I carried that label?
00:15:06.67\00:15:09.24
I'm a Christian,
00:15:09.27\00:15:10.61
but I'm a
non-practicing pedophile.
00:15:10.64\00:15:13.07
And the reaction
was kind of unanimous.
00:15:13.11\00:15:15.78
They're going, "Well,
we'd some problems with that."
00:15:15.81\00:15:21.05
If we're non-practicing,
00:15:21.08\00:15:22.42
then why do we
call ourselves that?
00:15:22.45\00:15:25.52
We were staying with someone
at a conference not long ago,
00:15:25.55\00:15:29.99
and the fellow in the home
00:15:30.03\00:15:31.96
was telling us that
he was an alcoholic.
00:15:31.99\00:15:34.30
And I thought, "Oh, really?"
00:15:34.33\00:15:36.67
I mean he's very
active in Bible work,
00:15:36.70\00:15:38.57
and prison ministry, and
just on fire for the Lord.
00:15:38.60\00:15:41.60
And the next day he
brought it up again, and I said,
00:15:41.64\00:15:44.87
"Doug, when was the
last time you had a drink?"
00:15:44.91\00:15:47.21
He said, "Well, 22 years ago."
00:15:47.24\00:15:50.15
I said, "Doug,
you're not an alcoholic,
00:15:50.18\00:15:53.42
you used to be an alcoholic."
00:15:53.45\00:15:55.38
You know, every
time you say that,
00:15:55.42\00:15:56.82
that's negative reinforcement,
00:15:56.85\00:15:58.72
and it would
tend to pull you down
00:15:58.75\00:16:01.16
or lessen your credibility.
00:16:01.19\00:16:03.02
So if we are
accepting Jesus Christ,
00:16:03.06\00:16:06.19
let's lay these things aside.
00:16:06.23\00:16:07.56
Why do we want to
identify with the things
00:16:07.60\00:16:09.36
we're being saved from?
00:16:09.40\00:16:11.03
Thank you. It's beautiful.
00:16:11.07\00:16:13.03
So when I was in SAA meetings,
which is Sex Addicts Anonymous.
00:16:13.07\00:16:16.60
We would sit in a circle,
and the circle would say,
00:16:16.64\00:16:18.97
"Hi, I'm Mike.
I'm a sex addict."
00:16:19.01\00:16:20.61
And so what that did after
a while as I realized that,
00:16:20.64\00:16:24.08
"What so a man thinketh
in his heart that so he is."
00:16:24.11\00:16:26.25
And so that's not biblical.
00:16:26.28\00:16:28.22
I'm not that anymore,
not because of my own power
00:16:28.25\00:16:31.15
but because of what
Christ has done for me.
00:16:31.19\00:16:33.25
So when we're talking
about the power of Jesus Christ,
00:16:33.29\00:16:36.39
I believe that we
minimize that power
00:16:36.42\00:16:38.23
when we continue to
identify with the struggle.
00:16:38.26\00:16:41.63
As a matter of fact, gay
Christian is not biblical
00:16:41.66\00:16:45.27
because the Bible says that
the old things are passed away.
00:16:45.30\00:16:48.67
And so if I didn't
make the separation,
00:16:48.70\00:16:50.97
even though I may have
the attraction by identifying
00:16:51.01\00:16:54.14
with the temptation I continued
to bring that identity with me
00:16:54.18\00:16:58.55
and never fully
embrace the power
00:16:58.58\00:17:00.32
of what Jesus Christ has for me.
00:17:00.35\00:17:02.28
And so to me, this is
very important to understand
00:17:02.32\00:17:07.26
the specifics of that identity.
00:17:07.29\00:17:09.52
You know, in 1
Corinthians 6:9-11,
00:17:09.56\00:17:13.26
it talks about those
who will not be in heaven.
00:17:13.29\00:17:15.96
And
homosexuality is one of them.
00:17:16.00\00:17:18.10
It's listed in
several different ways.
00:17:18.13\00:17:20.57
And in my
simplistic way of thinking,
00:17:20.60\00:17:25.17
if someone is
identifying as a gay Christian,
00:17:25.21\00:17:28.81
and God says,
00:17:28.84\00:17:30.58
"Gays will not be in heaven,"
then it's basically saying...
00:17:30.61\00:17:34.52
To me, it says, "I'm a Christian
00:17:34.55\00:17:36.18
who will not be in heaven
00:17:36.22\00:17:37.82
because gays will
not be in heaven."
00:17:37.85\00:17:40.89
If I'm a gay Christian,
00:17:40.92\00:17:42.26
then I fall into that category
of not everyone that says,
00:17:42.29\00:17:45.36
"Lord, Lord shall enter
into the kingdom of heaven."
00:17:45.39\00:17:48.06
Does that make sense?
00:17:48.10\00:17:49.43
If we're identifying with sin,
we've not been saved from it,
00:17:49.46\00:17:52.93
we've not
distance ourselves from it,
00:17:52.97\00:17:55.07
we're limiting
God's ability to save us.
00:17:55.10\00:17:58.51
And I picture Jesus as
kind of cutting away this ball
00:17:58.54\00:18:03.24
and chain that's
been around our foot.
00:18:03.28\00:18:05.65
And that's like
the bondage of sin.
00:18:05.68\00:18:09.52
Why would I pick that chain
up in and drag it around with,
00:18:09.55\00:18:12.65
when I've been set free from it.
00:18:12.69\00:18:14.42
That's, to me, how I
see these types of labels.
00:18:14.46\00:18:17.16
Okay, so Wayne, I want it...
00:18:17.19\00:18:19.23
There's something that I really
want you to address for me,
00:18:19.26\00:18:21.23
but I just want to
finish this thought.
00:18:21.26\00:18:23.00
When I approach
someone about this problem
00:18:23.03\00:18:25.73
with masturbation
that was still in my life,
00:18:25.77\00:18:28.54
the one thing
that he said to me,
00:18:28.57\00:18:29.90
he said, "If you
want freedom from it,"
00:18:29.94\00:18:31.97
he says, "you have to
determine that it must die."
00:18:32.01\00:18:35.28
He said, "You have
to slit its throat,
00:18:35.31\00:18:36.75
you have to
stab it in the heart,
00:18:36.78\00:18:38.11
you have to smash its head."
00:18:38.15\00:18:39.48
And so one of the
things that I had to realize
00:18:39.51\00:18:41.35
is I had to make a
total and complete separation
00:18:41.38\00:18:45.12
from this thing that I
identified with for so long,
00:18:45.15\00:18:47.49
and so the
application is the same.
00:18:47.52\00:18:49.92
So, Wayne, what is
the difference now?
00:18:49.96\00:18:52.63
You know, we have
this message going around
00:18:52.66\00:18:54.60
like just love, you
know, Jesus loves all of us.
00:18:54.63\00:18:56.97
He just loves us, and
we need to be more loving
00:18:57.00\00:18:59.83
and show love to people.
00:18:59.87\00:19:01.50
Is that still true?
00:19:01.54\00:19:02.87
And is that where it ends?
00:19:02.90\00:19:05.51
Well, the love, yeah,
the love is absolutely
00:19:05.54\00:19:09.44
the core of what is needed.
00:19:09.48\00:19:13.01
But love isn't permission.
00:19:13.05\00:19:16.08
And so we've
somehow, even the church,
00:19:16.12\00:19:19.89
in the time that we
didn't talk about this
00:19:19.92\00:19:23.19
has finally come around
00:19:23.22\00:19:24.63
to getting it
into the discussion,
00:19:24.66\00:19:27.00
but now they're
still afraid of offending.
00:19:27.03\00:19:29.50
And we need not offend
anyone, but in the ignorance,
00:19:29.53\00:19:34.00
we're doing more
damage by locking people
00:19:34.04\00:19:36.27
into identities that chain them
00:19:36.30\00:19:38.11
to the world instead of who
they can be in Jesus Christ.
00:19:38.14\00:19:41.74
The love that we want to share,
the love that Jesus shares
00:19:41.78\00:19:45.38
is that He will walk
with us on the journey.
00:19:45.41\00:19:47.75
And that...
00:19:47.78\00:19:51.85
That no matter if you mess up,
00:19:51.89\00:19:55.16
that we don't let
go off the person.
00:19:55.19\00:19:57.19
We still see
them as the potential
00:19:57.23\00:19:59.09
that Jesus sees for them.
00:19:59.13\00:20:00.46
We still see them as the person
00:20:00.50\00:20:01.83
that they can
become in Jesus Christ,
00:20:01.86\00:20:03.80
not locked into the past,
00:20:03.83\00:20:05.57
but by walking with
them and saying, "It's okay.
00:20:05.60\00:20:08.37
Another day has gone by."
00:20:08.40\00:20:10.14
And you've surrendered,
00:20:10.17\00:20:11.51
and you've given your
life over to Jesus Christ.
00:20:11.54\00:20:13.91
You're not
identifying by your temptations,
00:20:13.94\00:20:15.88
but you're
beginning to see the beauty
00:20:15.91\00:20:18.11
of who Jesus says
you can be in Him.
00:20:18.15\00:20:20.98
And Jesus gives us
roles and responsibilities,
00:20:21.02\00:20:23.82
He gives us engagements
that we can have with Him,
00:20:23.85\00:20:26.65
the devotional time that
we all share with Jesus today,
00:20:26.69\00:20:29.49
we start sharing with each other
00:20:29.52\00:20:30.93
what we've
discovered in Jesus Christ.
00:20:30.96\00:20:33.06
And that inspires and
motivates somebody else
00:20:33.09\00:20:35.46
along the journey as while
we're walking with each other.
00:20:35.50\00:20:39.30
Sometimes Jesus has to carry us,
00:20:39.33\00:20:41.50
sometimes as a church
body or as a caring individual,
00:20:41.54\00:20:45.71
we need to take
that person's hand
00:20:45.74\00:20:47.38
and let them know
that they are affirmed,
00:20:47.41\00:20:49.21
that they're
confirmed in Jesus Christ,
00:20:49.24\00:20:51.68
but they have
escaped from their past.
00:20:51.71\00:20:54.88
So one of the things
that we've all experienced
00:20:54.92\00:20:56.69
is that the church
definitely needs a lot of work
00:20:56.72\00:20:59.89
in the area of
loving sinners, right?
00:20:59.92\00:21:02.76
And in particular,
even loving homosexuals.
00:21:02.79\00:21:05.86
But that's not where it ends.
00:21:05.89\00:21:07.70
That's such a vital part,
and we identify that the church
00:21:07.73\00:21:10.40
really has a lot of
work to do in that area,
00:21:10.43\00:21:12.33
but that doesn't
mean that we throw out
00:21:12.37\00:21:13.84
the power of Jesus Christ either
00:21:13.87\00:21:15.44
or the word that
comes with conviction
00:21:15.47\00:21:18.01
which some people
can find, you know,
00:21:18.04\00:21:21.34
what's the word
that you use for it, Ron?
00:21:21.38\00:21:24.31
It hurts, it
pinches, right? Conviction.
00:21:24.35\00:21:27.68
Can I say something,
00:21:27.72\00:21:29.05
it's more about the love
issue from a parental position.
00:21:29.08\00:21:33.86
There are two kinds of love.
00:21:33.89\00:21:36.69
And we can say that
we love our children
00:21:36.73\00:21:40.30
and indulge their bad behavior.
00:21:40.33\00:21:43.43
And this is what I see happening
00:21:43.47\00:21:44.87
so much in the church today.
00:21:44.90\00:21:46.87
There is this love
that is loving people
00:21:46.90\00:21:51.01
down the broad way
which leads to destruction.
00:21:51.04\00:21:53.41
I call it cheap love.
00:21:53.44\00:21:55.84
It's not the love that
our heavenly Father has.
00:21:55.88\00:21:58.75
When we realize
that God is love,
00:21:58.78\00:22:01.42
and He's the perfect definition
of love, He is a father,
00:22:01.45\00:22:05.79
and so everything that He does
00:22:05.82\00:22:07.69
and everything that He
says is from a loving heart.
00:22:07.72\00:22:10.96
So that means His commandments,
His warnings, His reproofs,
00:22:10.99\00:22:15.03
His corrections, His punishment,
00:22:15.06\00:22:17.97
all of these things
are from a loving Father.
00:22:18.00\00:22:21.07
And as a father myself,
00:22:21.10\00:22:23.04
one of the most difficult
things I've ever had to do
00:22:23.07\00:22:25.94
is punish my children.
00:22:25.97\00:22:27.98
But in love, I know that
at times it had to be done.
00:22:28.01\00:22:31.91
And what we're seeing
so much in the church today
00:22:31.95\00:22:34.38
is what I call cheap love.
00:22:34.42\00:22:36.79
It's not a love
that will love someone
00:22:36.82\00:22:39.75
and nurture them
along the narrow way,
00:22:39.79\00:22:41.86
it is a love that will
just kind of gloss over things
00:22:41.89\00:22:46.59
down the broad
way to destruction.
00:22:46.63\00:22:48.33
You know, God's Word said,
00:22:48.36\00:22:49.70
"To those that I
love, I rebuke and chasten."
00:22:49.73\00:22:52.70
He is a Father, right?
00:22:52.73\00:22:54.07
So, Wayne, you know,
00:22:54.10\00:22:55.44
in regards to the
churches and the schools,
00:22:55.47\00:22:57.51
you know, are they failing
to recognize this difference,
00:22:57.54\00:23:00.28
and are we more
interested in being
00:23:00.31\00:23:02.74
coming
politically correct in a world
00:23:02.78\00:23:04.95
that is just bombarding us with
00:23:04.98\00:23:06.68
sexual identity, sexual freedom,
00:23:06.72\00:23:09.08
and it makes Christianity
look kind of restrictive
00:23:09.12\00:23:14.12
or even kind of
old-fashioned or even hateful.
00:23:14.16\00:23:17.96
And so elaborate
on that if you would.
00:23:17.99\00:23:19.89
What's wrong with this?
00:23:19.93\00:23:21.26
Well, I think there's a
certain amount of oppression
00:23:21.30\00:23:23.30
that is coming
from culture today.
00:23:23.33\00:23:26.67
And, you know, if you choose
not to have a biblical belief,
00:23:26.70\00:23:32.27
that's okay, you
have a choice about that,
00:23:32.31\00:23:34.78
and nobody is
forcing you to adopt that.
00:23:34.81\00:23:36.95
But when you enter into
a Christian school system,
00:23:36.98\00:23:40.92
you should be able to get
the purity of the Word of God
00:23:40.95\00:23:44.02
and the compelling
power of the Word of God.
00:23:44.05\00:23:46.86
And so when we begin
to bow to social pressure
00:23:46.89\00:23:51.63
instead of
living for the greatness
00:23:51.66\00:23:56.43
of the Word of God that makes us
00:23:56.46\00:23:59.53
a peculiar people today,
00:23:59.57\00:24:01.27
we're selling people
short of who they can be.
00:24:01.30\00:24:03.91
And so I think it's important.
00:24:03.94\00:24:05.64
I think that
there's an importance.
00:24:05.67\00:24:08.88
We don't have the
end all solution on this,
00:24:08.91\00:24:11.75
but we have a lot of
good positive solutions
00:24:11.78\00:24:15.18
having been there.
00:24:15.22\00:24:16.62
And because the church refused
00:24:16.65\00:24:18.52
to discuss this
for such a long time,
00:24:18.55\00:24:21.29
I see today that they want to be
00:24:21.32\00:24:23.26
in authoritative position,
00:24:23.29\00:24:24.96
and they don't
necessarily want to consult
00:24:24.99\00:24:26.86
with somebody like you and I.
00:24:26.90\00:24:28.23
They wanted to have
come from themselves,
00:24:28.26\00:24:31.17
but they're
floundering a little bit,
00:24:31.20\00:24:32.83
and I think that
they're not giving the students
00:24:32.87\00:24:36.27
who is searching
the full potential
00:24:36.30\00:24:38.77
of who they can
be in Jesus Christ.
00:24:38.81\00:24:41.34
One of the things
that was so profound for me
00:24:41.38\00:24:43.68
in this journey, and you
guys have helped me a lot
00:24:43.71\00:24:46.75
with this because, you
know, you guys are more...
00:24:46.78\00:24:50.99
What's the word
for it? It's like...
00:24:51.02\00:24:52.55
For me, it was kind of like,
00:24:52.59\00:24:53.99
"Well, just tell me
what I have to do to get by."
00:24:54.02\00:24:56.22
And so I was kind of
moving in that direction.
00:24:56.26\00:24:58.03
It wasn't until
I really determined
00:24:58.06\00:25:00.40
that this part must go.
00:25:00.43\00:25:02.16
And before I could
even realize that, you know,
00:25:02.20\00:25:05.03
I tried to keep it,
these are things that I love,
00:25:05.07\00:25:07.04
things that I enjoy,
things that I embrace,
00:25:07.07\00:25:09.07
and so it wasn't until I
really made the distinction
00:25:09.10\00:25:11.87
that I'm not that anymore.
00:25:11.91\00:25:13.54
And I may struggle with
those feelings and attractions,
00:25:13.58\00:25:16.18
but I choose not to
be identified with that.
00:25:16.21\00:25:18.65
I want to be identified
by the power of Jesus Christ.
00:25:18.68\00:25:21.85
And as I started
to identify with that,
00:25:21.88\00:25:24.32
even against my feelings,
and claiming the Word of God,
00:25:24.35\00:25:27.56
then all of a sudden
that power became real.
00:25:27.59\00:25:32.29
It started to
manifest itself in my life.
00:25:32.33\00:25:34.53
I started to gain
victories over areas
00:25:34.56\00:25:36.43
that I didn't have before.
00:25:36.46\00:25:37.80
I started to
experience feelings,
00:25:37.83\00:25:39.33
and tendencies, and tastes
that I'd never had before.
00:25:39.37\00:25:42.20
And so I think that
that's the gravest danger
00:25:42.24\00:25:45.51
is that by continuing to put
00:25:45.54\00:25:47.04
that identity in there
that I'm still an ex-gay
00:25:47.08\00:25:50.61
or a gay Christian
or whatever that is,
00:25:50.65\00:25:52.38
I still continue to
drag that along with me,
00:25:52.41\00:25:54.55
like you were saying, Ron.
00:25:54.58\00:25:56.15
So, guys, this has
been helpful for me.
00:25:56.18\00:25:59.75
Give me a final thought
00:25:59.79\00:26:01.12
if you could in about
30 seconds or so to really,
00:26:01.16\00:26:04.09
kind of,
personalize your experience
00:26:04.13\00:26:07.66
and how this has
such meaning for you?
00:26:07.70\00:26:09.40
I think, quickly,
from your inspiration
00:26:09.43\00:26:12.47
and motivation to do, you
know, spend time with God,
00:26:12.50\00:26:15.44
and to go in deep
and find out more things
00:26:15.47\00:26:18.07
that are benefiting
your Christian life today.
00:26:18.11\00:26:20.74
You share those
with us sometimes,
00:26:20.78\00:26:22.51
and that intrigues me,
00:26:22.54\00:26:24.21
and that makes me
have further victories.
00:26:24.25\00:26:26.95
If we go to the Word of
God which cannot fail us,
00:26:26.98\00:26:30.52
that's how we help
one another along the way.
00:26:30.55\00:26:33.05
We don't have to gloss it over.
00:26:33.09\00:26:34.86
We don't have to make it
look like something it isn't
00:26:34.89\00:26:37.49
or put it in a PC
kind of language today.
00:26:37.53\00:26:41.46
We can take the
Word as it states.
00:26:41.50\00:26:43.73
Oh, thanks, Wayne.
00:26:43.77\00:26:45.23
Ron?
00:26:45.27\00:26:46.60
You know, I think of the
passage in Romans 12:1-2,
00:26:46.63\00:26:50.81
"Be not conformed to this world,
00:26:50.84\00:26:52.34
but be ye transformed by
the renewing of your mind."
00:26:52.37\00:26:57.11
And through the Bible,
I've found so many helpful tips
00:26:57.15\00:27:02.22
on how to have that
transformation of thinking
00:27:02.25\00:27:06.22
that helps us see ourselves
in a totally different light.
00:27:06.25\00:27:10.53
And if we will look at ourselves
00:27:10.56\00:27:11.93
and try to look at ourselves
the way Jesus looks at us
00:27:11.96\00:27:16.43
as a new child in Christ,
00:27:16.46\00:27:18.13
it helps us realize
that our orientation
00:27:18.17\00:27:20.47
is in Him as a
royal child of God.
00:27:20.50\00:27:25.47
Wow, so that's great.
00:27:25.51\00:27:26.84
Thank you, guys, for
those closing comments.
00:27:26.88\00:27:28.98
One of the things that I
realize more and more is that
00:27:29.01\00:27:32.28
by being called a gay Christian,
00:27:32.31\00:27:33.65
we're really... it's a handicap.
00:27:33.68\00:27:35.68
You're leaving
us with a handicap.
00:27:35.72\00:27:37.79
And because of our past,
00:27:37.82\00:27:39.15
because of our
experience in Christ,
00:27:39.19\00:27:41.09
we know that
those things have to go
00:27:41.12\00:27:42.49
to be able to
walk in the fullness
00:27:42.52\00:27:44.36
of what God has
created us to be.
00:27:44.39\00:27:46.46
So thank you for
this lively discussion.
00:27:46.49\00:27:49.50
And we hope that you'll
come back and join us again
00:27:49.53\00:27:51.33
on Pure Choices.
00:27:51.37\00:27:52.70