The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Hi, I'm Wayne
Blakely with Pure Choices
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and from Coming Out Ministries.
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Today, I'm here
with Thandi Chiwaya.
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And, Thandi, I'm really blessed
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to be able to
have this conversation
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with you today.
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We met under some
rather unusual circumstances
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and I wondered if you
might tell a little bit
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about that to start with?
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I sure will.
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I happened to be
watching RPC, the Barry Project.
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It's a church
that's in Maryland,
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on Praise Vision.
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I happen to be tuned in
this particular Sabbath,
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roughly about a year ago.
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I couldn't make it out to church
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and I was determined
to tune into Toronto West.
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And for whatever reason,
the connection never made it
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and so I needed to
tune in to the RPC,
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Maryland, Barry Project.
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And I saw you presenting.
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I was really
excited when I figured out
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what you were talking about.
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And what was the
topic of the day?
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The topic was God's saving grace
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towards the
homosexual community,
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if I had to encapsulate it.
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I was so excited the
moment I saw you speaking.
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I took to my Facebook
page and I wrote to my friends,
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LGBTQ family, if
you're not busy at 12 o'clock,
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tune into Praise Vision,
tune into the RPC Church.
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And they did to
my great surprise,
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a few of them
wrote me back and said,
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"This isn't something
that we would normally do
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but because you
asked us we will tune in."
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And they did.
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And I got some
positive feedback.
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That's a
presentation that I often give
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during the divine hour.
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It's called Engage,
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and it has to do with
talking to the congregation
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about reaching out
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and becoming close
to the LGBT community.
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We've distanced ourselves.
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At least the church
has distanced themself
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so much over the years.
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And so it was surprising
when I later found out
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that you had asked your
LGBT friends to view it.
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The purpose is
actually as an educational tool
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to help the church
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or
congregational members recognize
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where their ignorance
has been in their lives.
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And when you
engaged with me later,
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you told me that
your LGBT friends
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were not offended.
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No, they were
not. They were not.
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As a matter of fact,
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there are a few
that are questioning
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and they even
question me to this day.
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And so it was a
great opportunity
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to open up a dialog with them.
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And even if they
didn't come around
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to seeing things
the way that I saw them
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as presented in scripture,
there's a chance to pray,
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there's a chance
to talk with them,
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and the chance for God
to work in their hearts
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even behind the scenes.
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I'm grateful that
the message came across
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as loving as it was intended.
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I had no idea that I would have
the privilege of meeting you
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almost a year later
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when I came to
present in Berrien Springs.
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And you let me know
that you were there.
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And what
happened as a result was
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you were able to tell
me about your own story
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which has really touched me.
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So I wondered if
you might tell us
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about the early
beginnings in your life?
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Sure.
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I come from an immigrant family.
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My mom is from
Georgetown, Guyana
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which is considered
part of the West Indies.
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And my dad is
from Malawi, Africa.
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Being that they were immigrants,
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they met in
England, they married,
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and they settled in the
United States in New York.
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They had me and my
three younger brothers.
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And my grandmother,
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my mother's mother came
up to a sister from Guyana
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in rearing us,
taking care of us.
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I know that in many cultures
that this topic is not one
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that people bring to
the service to discuss,
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also know that as a
result of being young
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and the great
controversy that is at hand
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between God and Satan
that Satan starts very early,
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he looks for the earliest moment
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of which he can
challenge a child
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in what they might believe.
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And because of this chaos,
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it seems to be a very
vulnerable position to be in.
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King David said that he was born
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and conceived in iniquity.
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And so as you were young,
tell me a little bit about
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what happened as
you were stepping off
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into your young childhood.
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Being that I was
raised in Queens, New York
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with an immigrant family.
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My parents weren't
what we call an equal match.
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My mom was raised
Adventist, my dad was not.
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My mother's
mother was Adventist,
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when they
settled and got married,
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my mom wanted to do
things a particular way
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and my dad had other ideas
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and so that brought
some tension to the home.
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And my grandmother
did her best to be able
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to be that stabilizing force.
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But you can't be everywhere.
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One of the ways
that my grandmother
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used her sisters in
generating income was
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she would babysit.
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And in babysitting,
she'd watch children
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that were a lot older than me
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and you can't be everywhere
as you're watching children.
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And so I remember being
out in the backyard one day
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with these children that
were a lot older than me.
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I was about three years
old at this point in time.
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And these children were
probably about nine and ten,
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they were sort of siblings.
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And I was playing
in the yard with them
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and we have an
enclosed back staircase.
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And I remember they invited
me into that back staircase.
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And at three years old,
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I saw them performing
oral sex on one of the other.
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And that was my
first introduction to sex
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at the age of three.
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That must have been an
incredible shock to you.
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I can't imagine
what a child goes through
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when they see something,
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you know, that they
haven't been told about
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or talked about,
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and actually is
supposed to be preserved
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until another point
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in our lives
many, many years later.
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But not only did
you encounter someone
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in their young adolescent years,
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engaging in sex,
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but then you made
discoveries inside your home.
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I did. So, I was six years old.
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And my brothers, and I,
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and our friends in the
neighborhood were playing.
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We were playing in
the basement of our house.
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And we came across a
huge stash of pornography.
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It included VHS
tapes at the time
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and very hardcore
illicit magazines.
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And so as children,
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you don't know
how to process that,
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you don't know what to do
with that when you see it.
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And so we started to practice
and engage in the things
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that we saw are
for us and our friends
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that were there
in the neighborhood.
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Wow.
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I'm guessing that
because usually pornography
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is most often
heterosexual in its nature,
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so your
experimentation was awful.
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It was probably
also a heterosexual,
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is that right?
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Actually no.
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Because in my younger days,
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little girls usually
played with the little girls
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and little boys
with little boys,
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I don't know how it is today.
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But most of my playmates
were of the same gender
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and so the
experimentation that took place
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were with my playmates
that were of the same gender.
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Okay.
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So there must have been
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a fair amount of secrecy
around this, I'm guessing.
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Absolutely.
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My family was not the one
to have that discussion with.
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It's very taboo in our
culture, homosexuality.
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Just the topic of it...
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It's not something
that's readily discussed
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in the black community.
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And so I wasn't going
to risk getting a whipping
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for what I was into.
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It felt good but I
knew that it wasn't good.
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And so I wasn't
going to try to explain,
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"Mom, I was doing this
or I got involved in this."
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I just kept it to myself.
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Were there
discussions in your home
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about sex of this nature,
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or about same sex
relationships at all?
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Very much so.
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Not just in my home but
in our general community
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so in my home,
yes, specifically.
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It wasn't uncommon to
hear comments of the like of,
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God would rain down fire
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and brimstone on
those types of people,
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and Sodom and
Gomorrah going straight to hell
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that wasn't unusual.
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Not just in my home
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but as I stated
in our community,
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in our church.
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So I really, it wasn't something
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that I wanted to try to sort out
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with the adults around me.
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I really kept it to myself
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and it was a really ugly secret.
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And yet, you seem to maybe have
had some kind of moral compass.
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Well, my grandmother
served as that moral compass.
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My grandmother was
the stabilizing force
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in our home.
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She was Christian, she
was Seventh-day Adventist,
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she took us to church
with her every Sabbath.
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And in so doing, I
started to learn a lot of
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what she believed.
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And I didn't necessarily...
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I knew in my heart
that that's not something
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that I should be doing.
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But I wasn't comfortable
to have the discussion
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with her or my mother.
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And so I have this inner
battle that was going on.
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And I didn't know how to fix it.
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I wanted to stop. But I
didn't know how to stop.
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And I didn't
know who to talk to,
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to help me to stop.
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I'm guessing that there was
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a lack of a demonstration
of genuine love in the home.
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And so that this
might have been the reason
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that you were
engaging or continuing engaged
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in what had felt good.
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Whoa, that
certainly did meet a need
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even if it was in the wrong way.
00:10:39.60\00:10:41.20
Okay.
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Was there an event
that caused you to think
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that maybe something was
wrong with this behavior?
00:10:46.91\00:10:50.71
Couldn't say it was an event.
00:10:50.75\00:10:52.08
I could say that it was just
our general overall culture,
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and the comments
that we would hear,
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and even in the music.
00:10:56.85\00:10:59.42
It wasn't uncommon to hear
that homosexuals need to die,
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and people aren't like that...
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That we're not like that,
00:11:06.49\00:11:07.90
so it was just a
well-known factor
00:11:07.93\00:11:10.57
in our community that
this was not a discussion.
00:11:10.60\00:11:13.00
It was beyond taboo,
00:11:13.03\00:11:15.44
somebody might
have been that way
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but it certainly
didn't happen in our house.
00:11:16.94\00:11:18.84
And I wasn't going to
let the cat out of the bag
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that it was me.
00:11:20.68\00:11:22.41
Wow.
00:11:22.44\00:11:23.78
So you were
carrying a sense of guilt.
00:11:23.81\00:11:26.51
You felt bad
about the situation.
00:11:26.55\00:11:28.72
You didn't feel
safe in your home
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or your church to discuss it.
00:11:30.95\00:11:34.52
What interrupted your life?
00:11:34.56\00:11:37.33
You know, God is so faithful.
00:11:37.36\00:11:39.06
Going through elementary school,
00:11:39.09\00:11:40.60
I remember being
teased and bullied
00:11:40.63\00:11:42.90
and the name calling,
00:11:42.93\00:11:45.83
I always struggled with my hair.
00:11:45.87\00:11:47.84
Being that I'm African-American
00:11:47.87\00:11:49.20
and I remember we
reached a point in my family
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where we had to
cut it off, and...
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I think you
shared something with me
00:11:54.48\00:11:55.81
that when you say we
cut it off, there was a...
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Excuse me, there was an
incident that took place
00:12:00.08\00:12:03.49
where it wasn't just
you cutting your hair off.
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No it wasn't.
00:12:06.09\00:12:09.09
My mom, working
really hard as a nurse,
00:12:09.12\00:12:12.33
working as a night nurse
00:12:12.36\00:12:13.70
didn't have a lot of
time to be at home to...
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I guess for us to bond,
00:12:16.83\00:12:18.80
for me to develop those
finer female comb qualities.
00:12:18.83\00:12:22.40
And so it wasn't uncommon for me
00:12:22.44\00:12:24.11
to go to school
with my hair uncombed,
00:12:24.14\00:12:25.87
and it wasn't uncommon
for the children at school
00:12:25.91\00:12:27.68
to pick on me
because my hair was uncombed.
00:12:27.71\00:12:30.08
And I remember
her sister saying,
00:12:30.11\00:12:32.11
"You know, you really
shouldn't have had girls.
00:12:32.15\00:12:34.68
You should have had all boys
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because you don't know
what to do with a girl"
00:12:36.08\00:12:37.42
to my mother which
started questions inside of me.
00:12:37.45\00:12:41.22
I started asking,
"Well, did God make a mistake?
00:12:41.26\00:12:44.09
Was I supposed
to be a little boy
00:12:44.13\00:12:45.46
instead of a little girl?"
00:12:45.49\00:12:47.40
And so my Aunt
wanted to fix the situation,
00:12:47.43\00:12:49.06
she wanted to help out.
00:12:49.10\00:12:50.43
And I remember
my mom sent us off
00:12:50.47\00:12:51.80
for spring break
one year with her.
00:12:51.83\00:12:54.34
And I was turning
seven, and my Aunt thought
00:12:54.37\00:12:57.01
that she would
help out by giving me
00:12:57.04\00:12:58.84
what's known as the
jheri curl back then.
00:12:58.87\00:13:01.18
And it was fun for
the moment that I had it,
00:13:01.21\00:13:03.35
my hair was flowing,
00:13:03.38\00:13:04.71
and all of the classmates
were talking about it,
00:13:04.75\00:13:06.98
and it was fun.
00:13:07.02\00:13:08.35
But my mom didn't know
how to take care of it.
00:13:08.38\00:13:10.85
And so I returned home
00:13:10.89\00:13:12.25
and it looked good
for about three months,
00:13:12.29\00:13:14.82
and then we finally did
make it into the hairdressers
00:13:14.86\00:13:16.93
to have it touched up.
00:13:16.96\00:13:18.29
My hair was breaking
00:13:18.33\00:13:19.66
and so the
hairdresser looked at my mom
00:13:19.69\00:13:21.06
and said I
can't do anything else
00:13:21.10\00:13:22.43
but to trim my hair.
00:13:22.46\00:13:23.87
And so she trimmed and
it was a choppy haircut.
00:13:23.90\00:13:26.77
And I got home.
00:13:26.80\00:13:28.80
And my dad was
still living with us
00:13:28.84\00:13:30.67
at this point in time.
00:13:30.71\00:13:32.17
And my dad looked at
it and in his culture,
00:13:32.21\00:13:34.74
they didn't do that,
they just cut their hair short
00:13:34.78\00:13:36.51
because he is Malawian.
00:13:36.54\00:13:38.85
And so my dad cut my hair
down to less than an inch.
00:13:38.88\00:13:43.99
Oh, my.
00:13:44.02\00:13:45.35
And this is the day
before I'm starting second grade
00:13:45.39\00:13:48.19
for the second time
because I had gotten left back.
00:13:48.22\00:13:50.89
I was already humiliated
because I had been left back
00:13:50.93\00:13:54.43
and having to start school again
00:13:54.46\00:13:56.23
as a little girl with no hair.
00:13:56.26\00:13:58.67
I hid under the bed.
00:13:58.70\00:14:01.84
My dad told me to get
out from under the bed
00:14:01.87\00:14:03.97
or I could risk a whipping.
00:14:04.01\00:14:05.87
And so I got off
from under the bed
00:14:05.91\00:14:07.54
and very
tearfully went to school.
00:14:07.58\00:14:09.84
And had all the
little girls call,
00:14:09.88\00:14:11.71
the little kids
in school call me,
00:14:11.75\00:14:13.31
"Boy" and "Lesbian"
and all sorts of things.
00:14:13.35\00:14:17.22
So that just
started me down a path that
00:14:17.25\00:14:19.22
"Well, it
obviously must be true."
00:14:19.25\00:14:21.32
And so I kept
the horrible secret
00:14:21.36\00:14:22.86
and it was rough.
00:14:22.89\00:14:24.23
And I endured a lot of bullying
in school from I would say,
00:14:24.26\00:14:28.86
the age of 7 until I
got to academy at 13.
00:14:28.90\00:14:32.67
And as you mentioned,
00:14:32.70\00:14:34.04
you asked me
about the turning point.
00:14:34.07\00:14:35.40
The turning point
was when I was 13.
00:14:35.44\00:14:37.87
My mom...
00:14:37.91\00:14:39.81
Just first...
00:14:39.84\00:14:41.18
You in this experimentation
that was taking place,
00:14:41.21\00:14:44.98
how long did the
experimentation go on?
00:14:45.01\00:14:46.95
I would say from the ages
of 7 until I was 13, 13.5.
00:14:46.98\00:14:51.89
Okay. So wow, you've
endured years of this.
00:14:51.92\00:14:55.09
You haven't talked
about it in the home.
00:14:55.12\00:14:56.93
You know in your
heart that it's not right,
00:14:56.96\00:14:59.59
and something happens at school.
00:14:59.63\00:15:02.56
So I go to school and I
know I have this problem.
00:15:02.60\00:15:04.87
And it's my first year
at Greater New York Academy,
00:15:04.90\00:15:08.64
a Christian high school,
00:15:08.67\00:15:10.01
Seventh-day
Adventist high school
00:15:10.04\00:15:11.37
in Queens, New York.
00:15:11.41\00:15:12.74
And I knew this
but I was keeping it
00:15:12.77\00:15:14.21
because I just didn't
trust anybody around me
00:15:14.24\00:15:16.44
with this horrible secret.
00:15:16.48\00:15:17.91
I didn't think
anybody could help me
00:15:17.95\00:15:19.35
and I didn't
think that they cared.
00:15:19.38\00:15:20.98
So I went to school
and I'm just feeling like
00:15:21.02\00:15:22.35
this is just me
00:15:22.38\00:15:23.72
and I'm the only
person in the world
00:15:23.75\00:15:25.09
that this is happening to.
00:15:25.12\00:15:27.06
And I got to the
end of my freshman year.
00:15:27.09\00:15:29.02
And we didn't have a
good religion teacher,
00:15:29.06\00:15:30.79
we had a great religion teacher.
00:15:30.83\00:15:32.69
His name was Pastor James Clark
at Greater New York Academy.
00:15:32.73\00:15:38.07
The end of my
freshman year at about April is
00:15:38.10\00:15:40.54
when we have our
senior class trip.
00:15:40.57\00:15:42.50
Though I wasn't
in the senior class
00:15:42.54\00:15:43.87
there were two girls
that were caught experimenting
00:15:43.91\00:15:47.14
with one another on
the senior class trip.
00:15:47.18\00:15:49.64
And we were a
fairly small academy
00:15:49.68\00:15:51.48
about 150
students in the big city.
00:15:51.51\00:15:54.22
So it didn't take long for that
to be all over the lunchroom
00:15:54.25\00:15:58.65
and all over the school.
00:15:58.69\00:16:00.26
The moment we got back to class,
00:16:00.29\00:16:01.72
you know,
everybody was talking about
00:16:01.76\00:16:03.43
these two girls that got caught.
00:16:03.46\00:16:07.10
Our pastor took the
opportunity to address it,
00:16:07.13\00:16:09.83
but he didn't
address it in the way
00:16:09.86\00:16:11.40
that you would
think he would address it.
00:16:11.43\00:16:13.70
He didn't wait for chapel,
00:16:13.74\00:16:15.44
he didn't call it
out from the pulpit,
00:16:15.47\00:16:17.64
he didn't name call, he
didn't shame these girls.
00:16:17.67\00:16:20.21
He met with our
classes one by one
00:16:20.24\00:16:21.64
and I happened to be
00:16:21.68\00:16:23.01
in the religion
one class that year.
00:16:23.04\00:16:25.88
And I remember he
met with our class
00:16:25.91\00:16:28.42
and he gently and he
lovingly opened the scriptures.
00:16:28.45\00:16:31.92
And he pointed out
that homosexuality was
00:16:31.95\00:16:34.92
not part of God's
original plan for the family.
00:16:34.96\00:16:40.06
He pointed out that
scriptures stood very opposed
00:16:40.10\00:16:44.47
in Leviticus 18 and
20 and 1 Corinthians 6.
00:16:44.50\00:16:50.27
But he didn't stop
there in the discussion.
00:16:50.31\00:16:52.97
And as you can imagine,
00:16:53.01\00:16:54.34
I'm there at the edge of my seat
00:16:54.38\00:16:55.74
and I really want to know.
00:16:55.78\00:16:57.75
Because I want out of this too,
but I just don't want to have
00:16:57.78\00:17:00.12
to share it with anybody.
00:17:00.15\00:17:01.55
All right.
00:17:01.58\00:17:03.39
And he said, "You know,
you don't have to stay there,
00:17:03.42\00:17:07.06
'There's one God
and one mediator,"
00:17:07.09\00:17:09.66
1 Timothy 2:5,
"The man Christ Jesus."
00:17:09.69\00:17:13.29
And that was so
important for me to hear
00:17:13.33\00:17:15.33
because I had a
world view that told me
00:17:15.36\00:17:18.70
that my dead relatives
were floating over my head,
00:17:18.73\00:17:21.60
very disappointed in
me, but unable to help me,
00:17:21.64\00:17:25.37
unable to talk to me,
00:17:25.41\00:17:26.78
unable to get me
out of my situation.
00:17:26.81\00:17:29.94
And that God was angry with me
and that the sky would open up,
00:17:29.98\00:17:34.65
and rain fire on me,
00:17:34.68\00:17:36.02
and destroy me at
some point in time
00:17:36.05\00:17:37.92
because God had no
use for a person like me.
00:17:37.95\00:17:41.42
And so when he said,
00:17:41.46\00:17:42.79
"The only person you
need to tell it to was God."
00:17:42.82\00:17:44.89
That was so important to me
00:17:44.93\00:17:46.26
because I was not going
to confess this to a priest
00:17:46.29\00:17:48.66
or to anybody else.
00:17:48.70\00:17:50.57
But he didn't stop there,
00:17:50.60\00:17:51.93
he said, he talked
about an adult lesbian couple
00:17:51.97\00:17:56.34
that found
themselves in the situation.
00:17:56.37\00:17:58.87
And then he studied with
them, that he prayed with them,
00:17:58.91\00:18:01.38
that he presented
these same principles
00:18:01.41\00:18:03.58
from the
scripture, and they believed.
00:18:03.61\00:18:06.38
And not only that they believed
but they separated as a couple.
00:18:06.41\00:18:10.79
One went on to become married
to husband and have children.
00:18:10.82\00:18:14.09
The other one at that
point in time was still single,
00:18:14.12\00:18:16.79
but serving the Lord
with all of her heart.
00:18:16.83\00:18:18.99
And I believed him,
00:18:19.03\00:18:20.36
I just believed
him with everything,
00:18:20.40\00:18:22.46
because your character
isn't completely molded
00:18:22.50\00:18:24.73
as a young teen.
00:18:24.77\00:18:26.17
You can still be molded,
your mind can still be changed,
00:18:26.20\00:18:29.64
and so I wanted that change
00:18:29.67\00:18:31.01
because I didn't want
to go to a burning hell.
00:18:31.04\00:18:33.21
And so when I left class
that day and I went home,
00:18:33.24\00:18:36.21
I just prayed.
00:18:36.24\00:18:37.75
And I took God to task.
00:18:37.78\00:18:39.45
So you didn't take opportunity
to talk to the instructor.
00:18:39.48\00:18:42.45
Well, why?
00:18:42.48\00:18:43.82
He said, "There is
one God and one mediator
00:18:43.85\00:18:45.42
between God and man."
00:18:45.45\00:18:46.79
Why do I need to
talk it through with him?
00:18:46.82\00:18:48.16
And you and I both know
that at this particular point
00:18:48.19\00:18:50.76
in our lives,
00:18:50.79\00:18:52.13
while we were seen in the church
00:18:52.16\00:18:53.50
with condemnation,
nobody was talking about it
00:18:53.53\00:18:55.20
from a point of love
and forgiveness, right?
00:18:55.23\00:18:58.60
That's correct.
00:18:58.63\00:18:59.97
And so you're having
an experience just from
00:19:00.00\00:19:03.20
what he said and how
he represented by contrast
00:19:03.24\00:19:05.91
in the school classroom
to the church environment.
00:19:05.94\00:19:09.94
You saw the love of
Jesus Christ convict
00:19:09.98\00:19:12.58
in your heart and you went home,
00:19:12.61\00:19:14.08
and did what?
00:19:14.12\00:19:15.45
Prayed. I prayed.
00:19:15.48\00:19:17.19
I took it to God in prayer
00:19:17.22\00:19:18.55
and I said, "Lord,
I really don't want to
00:19:18.59\00:19:20.06
go to a burning hell."
00:19:20.09\00:19:21.66
I don't want the
sky to open up on me,
00:19:21.69\00:19:23.69
I don't want to be lost,
00:19:23.73\00:19:25.69
and I certainly don't
want to be lost like this.
00:19:25.73\00:19:28.30
Only you can
help me to stop this."
00:19:28.33\00:19:30.87
And, you know, he did.
00:19:30.90\00:19:33.34
I don't know how he did it.
00:19:33.37\00:19:34.87
But the next thing
I knew a year went by
00:19:34.90\00:19:37.64
and I looked up.
00:19:37.67\00:19:39.07
What it was, was
00:19:39.11\00:19:40.44
he just provided no
opportunities for me
00:19:40.48\00:19:42.44
to engage that type of behavior.
00:19:42.48\00:19:44.61
So would you say
that the change then came,
00:19:44.65\00:19:46.78
it wasn't fear that brought
about the change in your life,
00:19:46.82\00:19:49.75
it was actually love.
00:19:49.78\00:19:51.12
It was hope.
Yeah, yeah and hope.
00:19:51.15\00:19:52.95
Because if those
adult lesbians could change,
00:19:52.99\00:19:55.29
certainly my 13 year
old self could change.
00:19:55.32\00:19:59.16
And so walking
forward, what happened?
00:19:59.19\00:20:01.26
Did all the same sex attraction
just totally disappear?
00:20:01.30\00:20:05.57
No, it didn't, no it didn't.
00:20:05.60\00:20:07.54
I was fine for
about the first year
00:20:07.57\00:20:09.84
after that happened.
00:20:09.87\00:20:11.64
And then I had two
friends enrolled in academy
00:20:11.67\00:20:14.78
that were also struggling
with same sex attraction.
00:20:14.81\00:20:17.85
And though I presented the
truth of what I had learned
00:20:17.88\00:20:20.18
in Pastor Clark's class.
00:20:20.22\00:20:22.05
They weren't going for it.
00:20:22.08\00:20:23.72
I hadn't been
introduced to a gay culture
00:20:23.75\00:20:26.79
as we know it today
at that point in time.
00:20:26.82\00:20:29.32
All I knew was
what I was experimenting
00:20:29.36\00:20:31.09
with behind closed doors
00:20:31.13\00:20:33.03
and what I saw
in those VHS tapes.
00:20:33.06\00:20:36.77
But the devil doesn't want to
just leave the story as it is.
00:20:36.80\00:20:40.94
And so those friends
took me to Greenwich Village
00:20:40.97\00:20:44.67
which back then in the 90s
was the safe haven for the gay,
00:20:44.71\00:20:49.24
the lesbian, the
transsexual, the bisexual.
00:20:49.28\00:20:52.15
We didn't have
LGBTQ high schools.
00:20:52.18\00:20:54.82
But we did have the
Hatchet Martin Institute.
00:20:54.85\00:20:57.05
And so they
introduced me to those places
00:20:57.09\00:20:58.75
and it would be the first time
00:20:58.79\00:21:00.12
that I would actually
see gay culture in practice.
00:21:00.16\00:21:03.53
But I don't know how God did it,
00:21:03.56\00:21:04.89
but he did keep me
in the midst of it.
00:21:04.93\00:21:06.86
I just...
00:21:06.90\00:21:08.23
I believed what I
heard and I just determined
00:21:08.26\00:21:10.73
that I would
continue to walk with Jesus.
00:21:10.77\00:21:13.37
And 23 years later,
here I sit talking with you.
00:21:13.40\00:21:16.81
Wow.
00:21:16.84\00:21:18.84
Thandi, you
know, when we surrender
00:21:18.87\00:21:23.28
and when we give our life
over to Jesus Christ there,
00:21:23.31\00:21:27.02
I know that there are
many, from the gay perspective,
00:21:27.05\00:21:30.55
that think that in
the call back to church
00:21:30.59\00:21:32.59
and looking at
00:21:32.62\00:21:33.96
what the Word of
God has to say about
00:21:33.99\00:21:36.46
not following through
with the carnal flesh desires.
00:21:36.49\00:21:40.40
The fear is that
they're going to be left alone
00:21:40.43\00:21:42.40
for the rest of their lives
00:21:42.43\00:21:44.07
and that and it's
going to be a lonely life.
00:21:44.10\00:21:46.60
Is that what you've
experienced in these years
00:21:46.63\00:21:48.74
that you've walked with God?
00:21:48.77\00:21:50.54
You know, there was a time
after I walked away from this
00:21:50.57\00:21:53.51
that I really want to
00:21:53.54\00:21:55.04
and I still want to
be married to this day.
00:21:55.08\00:21:58.25
But what I have found
is in walking with God,
00:21:58.28\00:22:02.05
He fills that void.
00:22:02.08\00:22:03.89
He fills it so
much with His love,
00:22:03.92\00:22:07.06
and you are so
busy working for Him,
00:22:07.09\00:22:11.26
and trying to
serve Him every day,
00:22:11.29\00:22:13.60
that I don't even feel
00:22:13.63\00:22:15.23
that I'm not even
thinking about it.
00:22:15.26\00:22:17.10
I'm just
excited about loving Him
00:22:17.13\00:22:18.97
and being able to serve Him
in whatever it is I'm doing.
00:22:19.00\00:22:22.47
What are you
doing today, Thandi?
00:22:22.50\00:22:24.17
Well, I'm in school. I
work at a clothing store.
00:22:24.21\00:22:27.38
What kind of school?
00:22:27.41\00:22:29.11
I'm in school for
ministry at Andrews.
00:22:29.14\00:22:31.61
You sure are.
00:22:31.65\00:22:33.88
And so God really
has touched your heart.
00:22:33.92\00:22:36.12
Yeah.
00:22:36.15\00:22:37.49
And through the
course of study at Andrews
00:22:37.52\00:22:42.26
as you're walking with God,
00:22:42.29\00:22:43.83
I would imagine that it
gives you a certain hope.
00:22:43.86\00:22:46.16
And what's on your heart about
00:22:46.19\00:22:49.20
what you want to
do with ministry?
00:22:49.23\00:22:52.93
I really want to help people
00:22:52.97\00:22:54.64
and I want to help
people that are like me.
00:22:54.67\00:22:57.51
I'm coming from
a navy background.
00:22:57.54\00:23:00.21
When I graduated high school,
00:23:00.24\00:23:01.88
I joined the
navy at the age of 18.
00:23:01.91\00:23:04.68
And I met a lot
of people like me.
00:23:04.71\00:23:07.62
And at first, I didn't know
00:23:07.65\00:23:08.98
what to do with the solicitation
00:23:09.02\00:23:11.39
when people would come on to me.
00:23:11.42\00:23:13.02
But as I began to walk with God,
00:23:13.05\00:23:15.12
He began to give me answers,
00:23:15.16\00:23:16.83
and if not direct
answers certainly strength.
00:23:16.86\00:23:20.00
And I remember a lesbian
couple reached out to me.
00:23:20.03\00:23:23.77
And said, well, how do you know
00:23:23.80\00:23:25.13
that this is God's plan for you?
00:23:25.17\00:23:27.24
How do you know
00:23:27.27\00:23:28.60
that you're going
in the right direction
00:23:28.64\00:23:30.44
and doing what
He wants you to do?
00:23:30.47\00:23:33.07
And I said, "He
just opened certain doors
00:23:33.11\00:23:35.08
and He closed a certain doors."
00:23:35.11\00:23:37.81
But I can tell you this,
00:23:37.85\00:23:39.21
He's taking care of
me every step of the way.
00:23:39.25\00:23:41.82
And so no, I don't regret
00:23:41.85\00:23:43.42
walking away from the community.
00:23:43.45\00:23:45.09
I don't regret my choices.
00:23:45.12\00:23:46.45
So I would like to
help people like them.
00:23:46.49\00:23:49.29
What do you say to our past
00:23:49.32\00:23:52.99
and that we grew
up with the ignorance,
00:23:53.03\00:23:56.97
and condemnation,
00:23:57.00\00:23:59.47
in fact, even
just not talking about
00:23:59.50\00:24:01.57
homosexuality in the church.
00:24:01.60\00:24:03.17
In fact, now by
not talking about it
00:24:03.20\00:24:06.57
in the silence the pendulum has
00:24:06.61\00:24:08.54
now swung to the other extreme
00:24:08.58\00:24:10.75
and that we can
continue to remain silent.
00:24:10.78\00:24:13.15
But we'll just show
basically endorsement
00:24:13.18\00:24:15.85
that it doesn't really matter,
00:24:15.88\00:24:17.69
what kind of
relationship you have,
00:24:17.72\00:24:19.82
it's love and it's not
anybody's business to say,
00:24:19.85\00:24:23.73
"You know, what
kind of love that is?"
00:24:23.76\00:24:25.93
How do you go
about helping people
00:24:25.96\00:24:28.70
that have lived
in this ignorance?
00:24:28.73\00:24:31.03
I love Pastor
Clark's approach with me.
00:24:31.07\00:24:34.04
He really pointed
out the love of Jesus
00:24:34.07\00:24:37.34
and it wasn't a love that
was accepting of everything.
00:24:37.37\00:24:40.61
It wasn't cheap grace,
because if it's cheap grace,
00:24:40.64\00:24:44.51
then there's no value to it.
00:24:44.55\00:24:46.18
Right.
00:24:46.21\00:24:47.55
But when you know,
you have a loving Savior
00:24:47.58\00:24:49.12
that laid down His life
00:24:49.15\00:24:50.49
and that would do
anything to save you.
00:24:50.52\00:24:53.39
Then you want to do everything
that you can to serve Him.
00:24:53.42\00:24:56.66
And if you know that
there's amnesty for your sins
00:24:56.69\00:24:59.39
and that you're
not going to be judged
00:24:59.43\00:25:01.90
then what's the hurt
in asking Him to help you?
00:25:01.93\00:25:05.00
Yeah.
00:25:05.03\00:25:06.50
And we've been lacking
00:25:06.53\00:25:08.50
to some degree the
female perspective.
00:25:08.54\00:25:11.37
I know that in our
ministry for, you know,
00:25:11.41\00:25:15.71
for basically like
three and a half years,
00:25:15.74\00:25:18.25
we had just the guys,
you know, talking about it
00:25:18.28\00:25:21.78
and now we've been blessed
00:25:21.82\00:25:23.15
with the addition
of a female member
00:25:23.18\00:25:26.12
of Coming Out Ministries.
00:25:26.15\00:25:28.12
And I think that you
can speak to relationships
00:25:28.16\00:25:33.80
that women deal with men
00:25:33.83\00:25:35.33
and homosexuality often
comes from the standpoint
00:25:35.36\00:25:39.47
of a strong carnal desire,
00:25:39.50\00:25:41.70
whereas the fleshly response
for women often doesn't occur
00:25:41.74\00:25:46.47
until after an
emotional connection.
00:25:46.51\00:25:49.21
So would you say,
well, or let me have you say,
00:25:49.24\00:25:52.58
what kind of relationship
do you try to encourage someone
00:25:52.61\00:25:56.28
who has experienced
same sex attraction to have
00:25:56.32\00:26:00.26
with Jesus Christ today?
00:26:00.29\00:26:03.16
You know, it certainly helps to
have an accountability partner
00:26:03.19\00:26:06.63
that you're able to pray with,
00:26:06.66\00:26:08.00
that you're able to be
open and vulnerable with,
00:26:08.03\00:26:10.87
it's definitely not everybody
00:26:10.90\00:26:13.03
but God will
point you in a direction
00:26:13.07\00:26:15.30
if you ask Him for somebody
to be able to talk with.
00:26:15.34\00:26:19.17
I know it's helped me.
00:26:19.21\00:26:21.44
What do you do with
same sex relations today?
00:26:24.51\00:26:29.32
How do you see yourself
with women in the church?
00:26:29.35\00:26:35.16
I can acknowledge their beauty
00:26:35.19\00:26:36.79
and I don't have to be involved.
00:26:36.83\00:26:39.09
And having come on
this journey 23 years later,
00:26:39.13\00:26:43.37
I can look at a sister
and say, "She's gorgeous."
00:26:43.40\00:26:46.17
And God has given me
the strength to leave it
00:26:46.20\00:26:48.44
just as that.
00:26:48.47\00:26:49.80
Right.
00:26:49.84\00:26:51.17
God calls us to
holiness, so I believe that
00:26:51.21\00:26:53.17
we can walk with one
another in the church.
00:26:53.21\00:26:55.81
We don't always know the journey
00:26:55.84\00:26:57.61
that each person is on today.
00:26:57.65\00:27:00.02
And I think that
your testimony is powerful
00:27:00.05\00:27:02.52
and being able
to help other people
00:27:02.55\00:27:05.42
who are dealing not only
with same sex attraction,
00:27:05.45\00:27:08.22
but other people in the church
who have lived in ignorance in
00:27:08.26\00:27:13.16
how we can reach out
with the love of Jesus Christ,
00:27:13.19\00:27:15.26
wouldn't you say?
00:27:15.30\00:27:17.23
I pray so.
00:27:17.27\00:27:18.60
Thandi, thanks
for sharing your story
00:27:18.63\00:27:20.47
and your transparency today.
00:27:20.50\00:27:22.37
I really appreciate it.
00:27:22.40\00:27:23.91
Today we're new
creatures in Jesus Christ.
00:27:23.94\00:27:26.78
And I just want to thank
you for watching Pure Choices.
00:27:26.81\00:27:30.41