The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Welcome to Pure Choices.
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My name is Michael Carducci,
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and I'm here with
Danielle Harrison,
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my colleague with
Coming Out Ministries.
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Today, our topic is
sexuality and spirituality.
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We want to talk about
the damage of sexuality
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outside of God's design.
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Welcome, Danielle.
Thank you. Michael.
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It's a powerful topic,
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and we'll take our
time going through it.
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My first question
for you, Danielle,
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is you've spoken
before on the impact
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which sexual sins can
have on us spiritually,
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why do you think this is so?
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Well, I believe that God
really created everything
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in the natural
realm that we experience
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to teach us
spiritual object lessons.
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And we see that very
clearly through nature
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and we know that Jesus
taught through object lessons
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and we see that very
clearly in His ministry.
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And I think that not only
did He create the creatures
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and the things that we
see in nature like the flowers
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and things like that to teach us
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spiritual object lessons
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but every aspect of
life including sexuality.
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And I think that's why
the enemy does everything
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that he can to create
confusion in the world,
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in the natural world around
us, we see that in evolution
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and the like but especially
in the realm of sexuality,
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relationships,
marriage, courtship,
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and I think he does
that because this is
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such an intimate
part of our lives,
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it's something that
is intricately woven
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into every aspect of our being.
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And so the enemy knows
how much of a profound impact
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it has on us spiritually.
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And the Lord desires to teach us
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about Him through sexuality,
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but we lack the
clarity of seeing
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that in this world today so much
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because of all of the confusion
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that Satan has
created on these topics.
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Interesting, Danielle, because
our histories are different
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and yet we each went
into same sex attraction,
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bisexuality, homosexuality,
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you know, anything
outside of the realm
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of holy sexuality, I
heard somebody say one time
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they called it
counterfeit sexuality.
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And we've interviewed
people that were molested,
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people that were
introduced like yourself
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at seven years
old to masturbation.
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I discovered it on my
own by taking out a book
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out of the library.
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So any of those opportunities,
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we're going to
experience sexuality
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in a way that was
never intended to be,
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but it has a hook.
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You know, Satan knows exactly
how the senses are designed
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and how anything sexual
will actually cause that hook
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but ultimately never gives
us what we truly were meant
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to experience.
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Amen.
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So, again, can you
help our viewers, Danielle,
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understand why it's harmful
to indulge in, let's say,
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let's start with masturbation?
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Sure.
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Well, especially with the
indulgence of masturbation,
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I think it
prematurely awakens this drive,
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this hunger that God has
placed in us toward sexuality,
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and He's done that
for a beautiful thing
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when we use it in the right way.
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And when we use it
and we indulge in it
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through
masturbation, we're prematurely
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awakening that desire.
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And so we're not using
it for the right purposes
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and we're not gaining the
right knowledge through it.
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It cultivates
habits of lustful thoughts,
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and it creates a
very self-focused view
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and perspective of sexuality.
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You know, God desires
for us to have a ministry
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towards the person
that we are married to and,
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through that sexual exploration,
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to come to understand
the intimate relationship
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that He wants to have with us.
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And so if we are using
sex to only gratify ourselves
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and the focus is
on me pleasing myself,
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then it's going to
cultivate the selfishness,
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the spirit of selfishness
that we know is really fueled
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and driven by Satan because
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that was the
whole nature of his fall
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and really every
sin and, you know,
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it just creates
this cycle of addiction.
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You know, it's interesting
from a practical standpoint.
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One of the things
that I realized is that
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when I was caught up in
the height of, you know,
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masturbation and fantasy
what it did is it actually
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denied me the sexuality
that God had intended me to be.
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You know, whether you're looking
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at the image on
a piece of paper,
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a screen, a
telephone, what's happening
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is you're denying yourself
the way that God intended,
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you are intended to
touch and to experience
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and to feel the intimacy of you
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with your opposite sex
partner the way God designed it.
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And so how sad
that we cheapen that
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and cheat ourselves
out of the experience
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that God had designed for us.
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I can speak for myself that,
for me, the ten minutes or,
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you know, several times in a day
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or several times in a
week that I was indulging
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in that behavior,
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what it did is it cut me
off from interacting socially
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with other people.
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It cut me off from intimacy.
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It cut me off
from the interchange
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with other people, and
I found myself isolating.
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I found myself addicted
and staying up until 3 o'clock
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in the morning when I, you know,
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needed to be getting
sleep to go to work the next day
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because ultimately, Danielle,
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it never gave me
what I was intended for,
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the feeling of satisfaction
and peace that I deserved
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and was promised
through doing it God's way.
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So I think that
there's a practical application
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of that as well, and the enemy,
Satan knows how we're wired
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and he knows that when
you have a sexual release
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that there's a
chemical that's released
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in the back of the
brain like heroin and it says,
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"Wow, that was good.
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Let's do this again."
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And so if we're
doing it God's way,
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then we're
beholding, and touching,
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and experiencing
the one that we love,
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and rather than, you
know, whenever you have
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a sexual release
and you're watching
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pornography or
even just fantasy,
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you know, what's
happening is it's gluing you
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or bonding you to that thing,
so it makes sense that people
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really struggle with addictions
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towards
masturbation and pornography.
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That's right.
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So, Danielle, why is it harmful
to indulge in pornography?
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Well, from the
experiences that I have had
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and from the experiences
that I know other people
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have had, really,
if you're indulging
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in pornography
especially before marriage,
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you're going to
be setting yourself
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up to have
challenges inside the marriage,
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it's the same with masturbation.
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And really, I think
the two go hand in hand
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once you get into
the realm of pornography.
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And it doesn't
really stand alone
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without
masturbation being by its side.
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They go hand in
hand. That's right.
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So, you know, I
think it creates a dynamic
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that's going to cause
challenges in your marriage
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because the way that
you have, well, like I said,
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you've placed yourself
on a self-centered focus,
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but also, you know,
you're going to have
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all of these past
influences in your mind
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that's going to
drive your expectations
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of what your sexual
experience is going to be
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like in your marriage,
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and it's also
going to create a wedge
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between you and
your partner because...
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I totally agree.
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When we've
talked to other people
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that struggle with pornography
or even just masturbation,
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I've spoken to theology students
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that were struggling
and then they thought,
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"Well, once I get married,
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all of this will
just wash away..."
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And then find out from
their wives, their spouses,
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and themselves that this
thing that they thought would be
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released from them actually
came into the marriage bed
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and was actually causing
conflicts in the marriage.
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The wife wasn't
getting what she deserved.
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The husband found himself drawn
to this behavior more and more.
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And, you know, Ellen White
even explains that in somewhat,
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you know, more
detail in the book,
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Testimonies on Sexual
Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce.
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And so that was quite
shocking for me as a Christian
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that fell back into
pornography and masturbation.
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And to read those words
of conviction, I was really,
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you know, in the
throes of conviction
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about how was I going
to get released from this.
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So definitely, I totally
see how just because you think
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that by having a
physical relationship
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is going to be the
answer to this problem
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when in actuality it's
not and it can actually
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become problematic
in the relationship.
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Amen. Amen.
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You know, I
think another problem
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that pornography
really cultivates is that
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we're told in the
scripture that when a man
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looks at a woman
and lusts after her,
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he has committed adultery
with her already in this heart.
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And so we truly are committing
fornication and adultery
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when we're
indulging in pornography.
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And like I said, there are
so many spiritual implications
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of why that is harmful,
but I think one of the physical
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implications is that it really
objectifies the human being.
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I'm glad you brought that up.
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Because now it's not me
in a ministry with my husband
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to experience God
through this experience,
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it's just you're an
object for my consumption
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that I'm going to
consume for myself
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and that I'm
going to use for myself.
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So you can imagine
why it creates a rift
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in the marriage
once marriage comes in
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because you're not looking
at the person as a person
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because you've always
objectified the people
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that you have consumed
through the pornography.
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And when you really look at it,
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it really is a
form of prostitution.
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And I think a lot of
people don't consider that
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when they're indulging in
it, but you are purchasing
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that person for your
use, for your consumption.
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And so it really is
a type of prostitution.
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And I think that's something
that people remove themselves
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from, from the experience,
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but you are really
purchasing someone.
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Right.
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I want to back up
just a little bit talking
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about the objectifying.
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I remember
realizing in that behavior
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which began when I was 13
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that I was
collecting a harem in my mind.
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I was, you know,
collecting people from school,
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people that I saw in traffic,
people that I saw in stores,
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you know, wherever I was out,
I was collecting these people
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as objects of desire and I
was keeping them in this harem
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inside my mind.
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You know,
definitely now as a Christian,
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I understand the
power of a fantasy
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and the power of
evil that it creates,
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not just the fact
that if you're looking
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at real literal
pornography on a screen,
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you are looking at
somebody's daughter or son,
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you're looking at
somebody's brother or sister
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or niece or nephew.
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And so, you know,
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a lot of times
that has conviction,
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but sometimes even that
isn't enough to stop people
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from this vicious and vile habit
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as Ellen White talks about it.
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You mentioned something
about the sexual relationship
00:11:50.41\00:11:52.97
between a husband
and wife as a ministry,
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and I really wanted to
try to kind of impact that
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a little bit because it
sounds kind of disconnected.
00:11:57.81\00:12:00.32
Would you just
elaborate a little bit more?
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Sure.
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And I've brought that up in
speaking around the country,
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and I had someone
come up to me and say,
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"You shouldn't
call sex a ministry."
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They were a little bit
uncomfortable about that.
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But when we think of
the essence of a ministry,
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when you go out
on a mission trip
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working for a ministry,
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you're going there
to help the people,
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to serve the people,
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and to aid the
people to come to know God.
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And I think that is
the essence of what I mean
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when I talk about
sex being a ministry.
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Are you there just to
gain something for yourself,
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just to feel good for a while?
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Or are you there to
really experience God
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with this person to serve them?
00:12:43.12\00:12:47.76
You know, is it about them
and what you're giving to them
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and to really come
to connect with God
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through that experience?
00:12:56.04\00:12:57.37
Beautiful.
00:12:57.41\00:12:58.74
So I want to kind
of segue a little bit
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into what is true intimacy?
00:13:00.18\00:13:02.68
You know, we definitely
know what poor intimacy
00:13:02.71\00:13:05.81
or inadequate intimacy is.
00:13:05.85\00:13:07.18
And I think that that's why
00:13:07.22\00:13:09.12
not just pornography,
masturbation, fantasy
00:13:09.15\00:13:13.25
but also sexual
deviancy that the Bible says,
00:13:13.29\00:13:16.36
you know, is harmful,
the act of homosexuality
00:13:16.39\00:13:19.73
as an abomination.
00:13:19.76\00:13:21.10
Wow, you know, for me that
came with great conviction,
00:13:21.13\00:13:23.26
and I was angry at God,
like how dare you call me
00:13:23.30\00:13:26.37
an abomination
because I connected myself
00:13:26.40\00:13:28.70
so closely to that.
00:13:28.74\00:13:30.34
But as I understand the fact
that I had absolutely no idea
00:13:30.37\00:13:34.38
of what true intimacy
was, and interesting that
00:13:34.41\00:13:37.08
when I came out in gay culture,
00:13:37.11\00:13:39.88
the one thing
that I was desperate
00:13:39.91\00:13:41.25
for was intimacy
with a man, not sexual,
00:13:41.28\00:13:44.05
I wasn't even attracted to
the sexuality of homosexuality,
00:13:44.09\00:13:47.82
I was attracted to
being affirmed by masculinity.
00:13:47.86\00:13:51.56
What was interesting
is that I realized that
00:13:51.59\00:13:53.29
if I wanted the affirmation,
the emotional affirmation
00:13:53.33\00:13:56.30
of intimacy with a man,
then I had to participate
00:13:56.33\00:13:59.03
in that sexual activity.
00:13:59.07\00:14:00.90
And so very
quickly, as I realized that,
00:14:00.94\00:14:04.21
well, if I participate
in that, I get the intimacy
00:14:04.24\00:14:06.64
that I'm looking for,
and eventually, very quickly,
00:14:06.68\00:14:09.84
that got turned upside
down, and then eventually,
00:14:09.88\00:14:12.68
my sexual
addiction, at the height of it,
00:14:12.71\00:14:14.52
it was like, "Don't tell
me your name and don't talk."
00:14:14.55\00:14:17.32
You know, I
realized that the one thing
00:14:17.35\00:14:19.55
that I was desperate
for was the one thing
00:14:19.59\00:14:21.12
that became the
most elusive to me.
00:14:21.16\00:14:23.79
And so this is where I
think is really paramount
00:14:23.83\00:14:27.40
that sexuality...
00:14:27.43\00:14:29.36
What was it?
00:14:29.40\00:14:30.73
Counterfeit
sexuality breaks your ability
00:14:30.77\00:14:33.90
to experience true intimacy,
and we serve a God of intimacy.
00:14:33.94\00:14:38.54
Isn't that right? That's right.
00:14:38.57\00:14:39.91
So, Danielle, share with
me a little bit how is it that
00:14:39.94\00:14:42.41
counterfeit sexuality
disturbs or destroys the ability
00:14:42.44\00:14:46.21
to relate intimately to God.
00:14:46.25\00:14:48.08
Sure.
00:14:48.12\00:14:49.45
Well, I think, like we
touched on briefly before,
00:14:49.48\00:14:53.66
there's this addictive
cycle that it brings you into.
00:14:53.69\00:14:57.09
And I think that
that is a driving force
00:14:57.13\00:15:00.13
that really
creates a vicious cycle
00:15:00.16\00:15:04.23
that tunnels us down
deeper away from the light
00:15:04.27\00:15:07.30
and further into the darkness,
00:15:07.34\00:15:10.21
that drives us from the thing
00:15:10.24\00:15:11.61
that used to be very
stimulating to us before
00:15:11.64\00:15:15.61
but now is no longer such,
00:15:15.64\00:15:17.71
we're ever chasing that
high that we experienced before.
00:15:17.75\00:15:22.98
Hang on, that
sounds very familiar
00:15:23.02\00:15:25.35
because I've
heard heroin addicts,
00:15:25.39\00:15:26.86
I've heard cocaine
addicts talk about the fact
00:15:26.89\00:15:29.72
that they end up in addiction
because they're always chasing
00:15:29.76\00:15:32.86
the first high, right?
00:15:32.89\00:15:35.23
Can sex or
sexuality be an addiction?
00:15:35.26\00:15:38.50
Yes. I think it very much is.
00:15:38.53\00:15:40.60
When you think
about how, you know,
00:15:40.64\00:15:43.07
the euphoria that drugs create,
and sexuality really does.
00:15:43.10\00:15:48.04
You talk about the
drugs that are released
00:15:48.08\00:15:52.08
in the brain naturally
through that experience,
00:15:52.11\00:15:55.22
and that it does
create a habit of addiction,
00:15:55.25\00:15:58.65
and when you're not
receiving the powerful punch
00:15:58.69\00:16:02.36
that you had
before, it drives you
00:16:02.39\00:16:04.16
into stranger
things that you thought
00:16:04.19\00:16:07.06
that you wouldn't
indulge in before.
00:16:07.10\00:16:09.43
So you have this addictive cycle
00:16:09.46\00:16:11.30
and you mentioned being
very offended by hearing
00:16:11.33\00:16:17.57
that homosexuality
was an abomination.
00:16:17.61\00:16:20.54
And I think that
this is something
00:16:20.58\00:16:23.48
that creates a lot of confusion
and challenges for people too
00:16:23.51\00:16:26.18
because I was so...
00:16:26.21\00:16:28.88
I had my identity so
woven up into my sexuality that
00:16:28.92\00:16:33.22
when someone said that
00:16:33.25\00:16:34.76
homosexuality
was an abomination,
00:16:34.79\00:16:36.62
it was like they were
saying I was an abomination.
00:16:36.66\00:16:39.56
But truly, in essence, you know,
00:16:39.59\00:16:41.06
I'm a child of God and I think
00:16:41.10\00:16:43.03
that's what we need to remember.
00:16:43.06\00:16:44.40
We need to remember
that a person who struggles
00:16:44.43\00:16:48.64
or even doesn't struggle
but lives as a homosexual,
00:16:48.67\00:16:52.07
they are a child of God,
and we have to love them,
00:16:52.11\00:16:55.14
and appreciate
them, and respect them,
00:16:55.18\00:16:56.64
and nurture them towards
having those kind of intimate
00:16:56.68\00:17:03.05
kind of healthy relationships
00:17:03.08\00:17:05.72
of what true intimacy really is.
00:17:05.75\00:17:07.72
True intimacy really is
about connecting on a deep level
00:17:07.76\00:17:12.59
in a space where you
can be perfectly vulnerable
00:17:12.63\00:17:15.96
and understood and still loved.
00:17:16.00\00:17:20.20
And I think that
that's the kind of intimacy
00:17:20.24\00:17:22.10
that we're searching
for inside of our churches,
00:17:22.14\00:17:25.11
that's the kind of
intimacy that we're searching
00:17:25.14\00:17:26.84
for inside of our
families, and we don't have
00:17:26.88\00:17:29.21
those kind of relationships.
00:17:29.24\00:17:31.45
And so if we're confused about
that nature of true intimacy,
00:17:31.48\00:17:37.52
we're driven toward sex because
we are bombarded by everything
00:17:37.55\00:17:41.86
in the media that tells
us that intimacy equals sex,
00:17:41.89\00:17:45.09
but really it doesn't, it
equals that space of safety
00:17:45.13\00:17:50.27
and deep connection
that is rich and beneficial.
00:17:50.30\00:17:54.37
So it's
interesting to bring out,
00:17:54.40\00:17:56.67
and I think it's very important
to establish especially
00:17:56.71\00:17:59.71
because of our history,
we were especially concerned
00:17:59.74\00:18:04.25
about making sure that
the church represents Christ
00:18:04.28\00:18:07.55
and God as loving, accepting,
and that even if we fall
00:18:07.58\00:18:12.75
outside of the measure
of what God has designed
00:18:12.79\00:18:15.39
each one of us for
that He doesn't reject us,
00:18:15.42\00:18:17.76
He doesn't hate us.
00:18:17.79\00:18:19.13
As a matter of fact,
the divine teacher bears
00:18:19.16\00:18:21.10
with the erring through
all of their perversity, right?
00:18:21.13\00:18:23.77
His love doesn't grow cold.
00:18:23.80\00:18:25.13
So I think that it's important
that we as a church have
00:18:25.17\00:18:27.70
to also say, you
know, to somebody
00:18:27.74\00:18:29.50
that may struggle with that,
00:18:29.54\00:18:30.87
and I think that that's
where a lot of the secrecy comes
00:18:30.91\00:18:32.81
from within the churches
because we're afraid that
00:18:32.84\00:18:35.94
if I really come
to you and talk about
00:18:35.98\00:18:37.71
what I'm struggling with
that you're going to judge me
00:18:37.75\00:18:40.55
or hate me or put
me out of the church.
00:18:40.58\00:18:42.55
And so I think that,
as we discussed this,
00:18:42.58\00:18:44.89
yes, it's counterfeit sexuality
and it interrupts your ability
00:18:44.92\00:18:48.19
to be intimate with God,
00:18:48.22\00:18:49.89
but if we as a
church misrepresent
00:18:49.92\00:18:52.06
the intimacy of Jesus Christ
to somebody who is struggling,
00:18:52.09\00:18:55.66
somebody who is
falling, you know,
00:18:55.70\00:18:57.80
into that and coming
short, then I think that
00:18:57.83\00:19:00.44
what we've done
is a great disservice
00:19:00.47\00:19:02.00
to that person and also to God.
00:19:02.04\00:19:04.11
I think so too, Michael.
00:19:04.14\00:19:05.47
And I think that when
we stand over our brethren
00:19:05.51\00:19:08.58
shaking our fingers
and just looking at them
00:19:08.61\00:19:10.98
as an abomination,
00:19:11.01\00:19:12.35
we neglect to
really create a bond
00:19:12.38\00:19:15.92
that bridges the
gap into their heart
00:19:15.95\00:19:17.52
and into their
life and then share
00:19:17.55\00:19:19.05
the essence of the
true spiritual implications
00:19:19.09\00:19:22.06
of what same sex
attraction really does
00:19:22.09\00:19:24.63
because when we look at Romans 1
00:19:24.66\00:19:26.46
we see that God expresses
00:19:26.49\00:19:30.97
His understanding
00:19:31.00\00:19:33.94
of these kind of
relationships, it says
00:19:33.97\00:19:37.24
that it's a vile
affection, you know,
00:19:37.27\00:19:40.91
I would be looking
here in the latter verses,
00:19:40.94\00:19:47.05
it says that, "They became
vain in their imaginations
00:19:47.08\00:19:50.39
and their foolish
hearts were darkened,
00:19:50.42\00:19:52.69
and they changed the
glory of the incorruptible God
00:19:52.72\00:19:56.62
into an image made
like unto corruptible man."
00:19:56.66\00:20:02.83
Then it says that God let
them go into their vile lusts,
00:20:02.86\00:20:09.30
dishonoring their
bodies between themselves,
00:20:09.34\00:20:12.64
and it was a vile affection
and that they were working
00:20:12.67\00:20:19.01
that which was
unseemly, and they received
00:20:19.05\00:20:22.42
the consequences of their error.
00:20:22.45\00:20:25.05
So we see here that God is
kind of putting a definition
00:20:25.09\00:20:29.12
on this experience
that it's unnatural,
00:20:29.16\00:20:32.23
that it's unseemly,
00:20:32.26\00:20:34.40
and so when we see this here,
00:20:34.43\00:20:37.27
we see that not only is
it hurting them physically
00:20:37.30\00:20:40.27
through the
physical experience of that
00:20:40.30\00:20:43.44
because God
didn't create our bodies
00:20:43.47\00:20:45.11
to have those kind
of sexual experiences,
00:20:45.14\00:20:48.44
we also see very clearly
that they became idolaters
00:20:48.48\00:20:52.31
and they started worshipping
00:20:52.35\00:20:53.85
and serving the
creature instead of the creator.
00:20:53.88\00:20:56.15
And so I think this
shows very clearly here
00:20:56.18\00:20:58.62
that transition of leaning
towards alternative sexuality
00:20:58.65\00:21:03.83
and it drawing them towards
also alternative spirituality.
00:21:03.86\00:21:07.80
Those verses could be taken
as very offensive to someone
00:21:07.83\00:21:12.13
who's homosexual
00:21:12.17\00:21:13.50
or someone who's
sexually outside of the bounds
00:21:13.54\00:21:16.34
of what God has designed for us,
00:21:16.37\00:21:18.61
but I think that
there's a deeper meaning there,
00:21:18.64\00:21:21.44
especially for someone like us.
00:21:21.48\00:21:24.21
I see it as a misrepresentation
of the design of God's intimacy
00:21:24.25\00:21:28.92
and why it's a
vile affection to God is
00:21:28.95\00:21:31.19
because you weren't
designed to experience that,
00:21:31.22\00:21:35.06
and not only were you not
designed to experience that,
00:21:35.09\00:21:37.49
it doesn't
satisfy, it doesn't give you
00:21:37.53\00:21:40.30
what my creation was
designed to experience.
00:21:40.33\00:21:43.47
And so that's
why it's vile to God
00:21:43.50\00:21:45.03
is because it's
not going to give you
00:21:45.07\00:21:46.80
what you were
created to experience.
00:21:46.84\00:21:49.44
And I think that we
have to make that distinction
00:21:49.47\00:21:52.47
to people so that we
don't sound like, you know,
00:21:52.51\00:21:54.88
those Victorian Christians
that didn't experience
00:21:54.91\00:21:58.45
any kind of physical
affection or whatever,
00:21:58.48\00:22:01.02
I think that we need
to understand it's vile
00:22:01.05\00:22:03.39
because it cuts you
off from the very intimacy
00:22:03.42\00:22:06.55
that satisfies, that fulfils,
and brings you ultimate Joy.
00:22:06.59\00:22:10.53
Yeah.
00:22:10.56\00:22:11.89
And, you know, when
I look at this verse
00:22:11.93\00:22:13.29
and I say that we, you know,
00:22:13.33\00:22:16.63
when we just distance ourselves
00:22:16.67\00:22:18.23
from them as
they're an abomination
00:22:18.27\00:22:20.07
instead of really showing them
00:22:20.10\00:22:21.44
the essence of the
spiritual implication
00:22:21.47\00:22:23.87
and then I bring
forth this verse, you know,
00:22:23.91\00:22:26.21
I wouldn't necessarily
take this verse to someone
00:22:26.24\00:22:29.18
and use this to describe
the spiritual implications
00:22:29.21\00:22:33.18
because I think a lot of
people who are wrapped up
00:22:33.21\00:22:36.18
in this identity
and in these practices,
00:22:36.22\00:22:37.89
they're not going to
understand this language.
00:22:37.92\00:22:39.69
But I think that if we
really look at this passage
00:22:39.72\00:22:43.09
and we study out the
spiritual implications
00:22:43.12\00:22:45.03
and the spiritual
understanding of this,
00:22:45.06\00:22:46.83
it can help us to
know how to understand
00:22:46.86\00:22:50.57
how God looks at it
and to understand the chasm
00:22:50.60\00:22:54.67
that there is
between God's sexuality
00:22:54.70\00:22:57.11
and the sexuality that the world
00:22:57.14\00:22:59.01
so abundantly offers.
00:22:59.04\00:23:01.01
Right.
00:23:01.04\00:23:02.38
And, Danielle, that
chasm I think is so powerful
00:23:02.41\00:23:04.41
that you bring
up, the chasm between
00:23:04.45\00:23:06.82
human sexuality that
we say is our privilege,
00:23:06.85\00:23:09.38
it's who we are,
we're allowed to experience,
00:23:09.42\00:23:11.62
no holds barred,
whatever you're attracted to,
00:23:11.65\00:23:14.02
you should experience
that and then look at how,
00:23:14.06\00:23:16.49
in contrast, that
chasm gets deeper and deeper
00:23:16.52\00:23:19.36
as society goes lower
and lower when you compare it
00:23:19.39\00:23:23.03
to the ideal of
what God's sexuality is.
00:23:23.06\00:23:26.67
And I think that, you
know, now until the end of time,
00:23:26.70\00:23:29.64
the chasm is only going to
get wider and deeper, I'm sure.
00:23:29.67\00:23:33.14
How is it that we
can turn this around
00:23:33.17\00:23:35.61
and make God not
look like such a prude?
00:23:35.64\00:23:39.11
How is it that...
00:23:39.15\00:23:40.68
Oh, I have a perfect example,
a famous actor who had slept
00:23:40.72\00:23:44.75
with so many Hollywood women
00:23:44.79\00:23:46.45
and he had the best of the best,
00:23:46.49\00:23:47.96
and he was well known
for being a ladies' man
00:23:47.99\00:23:51.23
and he made no
secret about the fact
00:23:51.26\00:23:54.16
that he was sleeping
around with multiple women.
00:23:54.20\00:23:56.70
But when he got married,
even someone who doesn't even
00:23:56.73\00:23:59.33
acknowledge God talked
about the power of monogamy
00:23:59.37\00:24:03.64
between him and his wife.
00:24:03.67\00:24:05.01
He said, "The best sex
that I've ever experienced
00:24:05.04\00:24:06.94
in my whole life was a
monogamous relationship
00:24:06.98\00:24:09.74
between me and my wife."
00:24:09.78\00:24:11.81
And so here you have this man
that doesn't even acknowledge
00:24:11.85\00:24:14.25
Jesus Christ or God
recognized the power of intimacy
00:24:14.28\00:24:19.35
in a monogamous
one-on-one relationship
00:24:19.39\00:24:21.52
that's giving amazing, right?
00:24:21.56\00:24:23.66
That is profound. Thank you.
00:24:23.69\00:24:25.59
God is so good. Amen.
00:24:25.63\00:24:26.96
And so, Danielle, as
we get towards our close,
00:24:27.00\00:24:28.96
I want to get you
to expand a little bit
00:24:29.00\00:24:31.20
on the
relationship between Samson,
00:24:31.23\00:24:32.90
the strongest man in the world,
00:24:32.93\00:24:34.67
and Joseph and how they
lost and gained their integrity.
00:24:34.70\00:24:40.71
Sure.
00:24:40.74\00:24:42.08
When we look at the
stories, the contrasting stories
00:24:42.11\00:24:44.41
of Joseph and
Samson, we see the powerful
00:24:44.45\00:24:48.58
and profound integrity
00:24:48.62\00:24:50.39
of Joseph who was
in a place of position,
00:24:50.42\00:24:54.02
he was growing
into a place of position
00:24:54.06\00:24:55.92
and he was forcefully
pursued by this woman, you know,
00:24:55.96\00:25:01.60
he chose to turn and to
strive against that desire
00:25:01.63\00:25:06.80
and to flee from that.
00:25:06.84\00:25:08.17
And he even said
that this would be sinning
00:25:08.20\00:25:10.17
against my God, you know,
00:25:10.21\00:25:11.54
not just for the
man he was working for.
00:25:11.57\00:25:14.84
And then you see Samson on
the other side of the fence,
00:25:14.88\00:25:19.01
you know, and really he walked
away from sexual integrity,
00:25:19.05\00:25:24.35
he went and pursued
the prostitutes in Gaza,
00:25:24.39\00:25:27.82
and he ended up marrying,
intermarrying with the Heathen
00:25:27.86\00:25:33.29
and the degradation
that brought into his life,
00:25:33.33\00:25:37.40
the challenges that brought
into his life, the death,
00:25:37.43\00:25:40.00
his death that it
brought into his life and...
00:25:40.04\00:25:42.34
So, Danielle, it really
shows the chasm, doesn't it?
00:25:42.37\00:25:45.77
It really does.
00:25:45.81\00:25:47.14
The chasm
between open sexuality,
00:25:47.18\00:25:48.51
whatever you want,
00:25:48.54\00:25:49.88
and then also the
strength that comes from
00:25:49.91\00:25:51.85
holding back sexuality, right?
00:25:51.88\00:25:53.58
That's right.
00:25:53.62\00:25:54.95
So I just want to
conclude with these two quotes
00:25:54.98\00:25:56.38
that I think really encapsulates
00:25:56.42\00:25:58.19
that chasm that we're talking
about between these two men.
00:25:58.22\00:26:01.36
This is from the book
Patriarchs and Prophets
00:26:01.39\00:26:03.32
written by Ellen White.
00:26:03.36\00:26:05.19
It says, "Physically,
Samson was the strongest man
00:26:05.23\00:26:08.36
upon the earth,
but in self-control,
00:26:08.40\00:26:11.10
integrity, and firmness,
he was one of the weakest."
00:26:11.13\00:26:15.00
And then in contrast we
see Joseph in his early years,
00:26:15.04\00:26:18.51
"He had consulted duty
rather than inclination
00:26:18.54\00:26:22.01
and the
integrity, the simple trust,
00:26:22.04\00:26:24.35
the noble nature of
the youth bore fruit
00:26:24.38\00:26:27.45
in the deeds of the man."
00:26:27.48\00:26:29.52
So, you know, it's
beginning the journey here
00:26:29.55\00:26:32.65
and walking with God
00:26:32.69\00:26:34.02
and allowing that
to fruit in our lives.
00:26:34.06\00:26:37.46
So powerful that Samson
00:26:37.49\00:26:39.19
represented as
the strongest man,
00:26:39.23\00:26:41.13
physically, according to
integrity, was the weakest.
00:26:41.16\00:26:44.63
And Joseph was
counted as the strongest man
00:26:44.67\00:26:47.70
of integrity
because he held back
00:26:47.74\00:26:49.70
his sensuality or sexuality.
00:26:49.74\00:26:52.31
You know, Danielle,
that's a lesson for someone
00:26:52.34\00:26:54.74
like us and someone who
might be listening is that,
00:26:54.78\00:26:57.65
you know, it's only
through the strength of God
00:26:57.68\00:26:59.35
that we can even claim
a day in sexual purity.
00:26:59.38\00:27:02.95
And I know that it
wasn't my power or my strength,
00:27:02.98\00:27:06.52
but one of the most
powerful and wonderful things
00:27:06.55\00:27:08.59
is that Romans 1 is really not
that God wants to give us up,
00:27:08.62\00:27:12.26
but He wants to give us
true sexuality and intimacy.
00:27:12.29\00:27:15.86
Come back and join us
again for Pure Choices.
00:27:15.90\00:27:18.10