The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Welcome back to Pure Choices.
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My name is Michael Carducci,
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and I'm with
Coming Out Ministries.
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Today, I have the
honor of interviewing
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a good friend of
mine Julian Nash.
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Welcome, Julian. Thanks, Mike.
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It's good to be in this position
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to actually hear
your story, Julian.
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You shared it with me,
and what I'd really like to do
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is just kind of
help you to unpack that
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for our listeners today.
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Great.
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You know,
Julian, you look great.
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You present as like somebody
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that doesn't have
a care in the world.
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You know, you're
a nice looking guy,
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and you're successful at,
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you know, communicating
to people and things,
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but I think a lot of
people make a judgment
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that you must not
struggle with anything
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when they take a look at you.
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You know, it's interesting
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because oftentimes we
can put up a good facade
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that there's nothing
really going on with us,
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nothing wrong,
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that we're these perfect
cookie-cutter Christians,
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but that's
actually not the case.
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And God has
brought me a long way...
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He has.
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It's, you know, at the
tender age of three-years old,
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I was adopted into a family
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because God knew
that I would struggle
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with love and have issues,
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so He adopted me
into a loving family,
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a Christian family,
raised me with principles,
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the Sabbath, the knowledge
of the cross and the gospel.
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All these things
were so necessary
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for what was to come.
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So, Julian, if we could go
back just a little bit more.
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How was it that you
were up for adoption?
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Yeah, actually, I
was in foster care.
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My biological parents,
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my biological mother
was on crack, cocaine,
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and they were
heavily into drugs,
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and they weren't
willing to give those drugs up.
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The state went in and took me.
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And I was put into foster care.
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And from birth,
I was a crack-baby.
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I was very stiff, and
didn't have good coordination.
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Doctors said that I would
have learning disabilities
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and issues later on in life.
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And it looked to be that
that was going to be the case,
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very stiff, very distant
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and difficult
time with attaching,
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and separation
anxiety and the works.
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Right, the diagnosis
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is actually called
detachment-disorder
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where the baby doesn't
really bond emotionally
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to parents or to other things
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because of the
over-stimulus from the drugs.
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So wow, even from
the beginning, Julian,
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it looked like, you know, you
had some real struggles there.
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So you were adopted,
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but I think what's interesting
is how you were adopted,
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how was it that
the family found you?
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That's a good question.
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The family of... The son of...
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Who later became
my brother, Jonathan,
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would go to my mom and dad,
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who became my mom and dad,
and asked them for a brother.
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And he just
would constantly ask,
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"I want a
brother, I want a brother."
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And they had been thinking
about having another child,
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but they really wanted to adopt
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because of complications
from having Jonathan.
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And they happened to be
watching a news broadcast,
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and they were asking
children in the foster-care
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and in adoption agency, "What
do you want for Christmas?"
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It was around Christmas time.
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And the mic came
to me and they said,
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"What do you
want for Christmas?"
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And I said, "I want a mother,
a father, and a brother."
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And God answered
in the exact details,
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each one of those things.
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So tell me about
your relationship
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with your brother
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because I think
it was very special.
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My brother and I, when we
met, we connected right away.
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We were just like
two peas in a pod.
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It was like Jonathan
and David, we connected,
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we were best
friends from the start.
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And then we couldn't...
No one could separate us.
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We were having so much fun.
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And the day,
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you know, when it was time
to leave the foster-care home,
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I remember just thinking,
you know, "Where are we going?
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What's going on?"
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And looking out the
back window of the car
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and thinking, you
know, "Where are we going?
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Where are they
taking us?" And...
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Was that
confusing to you? It was.
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It was very
confusing, very challenging.
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I began to ask questions
like, "What time is it?
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When are we going to
eat? Where are we going?"
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And oftentimes, my
parents and babysitters
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would find me
looking out the window,
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gazing out the window,
wondering where we were,
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when my parents
were coming to get me,
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and always wanting
protection and someone close by.
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Sure, okay.
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So as you're
developing this relationship
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with your brother
Jonathan and your parents,
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again, here you are,
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you're given up for
adoption, you're a crack-baby,
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your mother was a
crack addict herself,
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which really in
some respects was a very,
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you know, positive
gesture to think that
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if I can't raise him at least,
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you know, maybe
someone else can.
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But then to be
adopted into this new family,
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you've got this great brother,
the one thing that you wanted.
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And so growing up,
how was that interrupted?
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There was an
unfortunate situation
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that happened at a
Pathfinder Camporee,
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a camp...
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Before we go over there,
about your brother's health.
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Yeah, my brother was diagnosed.
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He was exposed to pesticides
which damaged his liver so much
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that he had to have
his first liver transplant
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at the age of...
later on, at the age of 10.
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And how old were you then?
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I would have been
eight years old at that time.
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And that was right
around the same time
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that this unfortunate event
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had taken place on
this Pathfinder trip.
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Okay, what happened
at that Pathfinder trip?
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We were, on a camporee,
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just like any
other Pathfinder trip,
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and I was a little
young for being in Pathfinders
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actually at that age.
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It shouldn't have
been an adventure.
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So tell us again,
what age that was?
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Usually, eight years old.
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That was right around the age
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where you were getting
ready for Pathfinders itself,
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but I was still too young there.
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And the other Pathfinder guys,
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I was in a tent
with two other young men
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that were of the
ages of 15 and 16 roughly.
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Okay, big age difference.
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And so was there any
supervision in your tent?
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There was no
supervision in the tent.
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So what happened?
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So that night, one of
the guys had fallen asleep,
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and the other one had
just come close to me.
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He began to hug me and caress me
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and, you know, run
his hand over my head.
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And he was a much
bigger guy than I was.
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And he just began to molest me
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and have sexual
intercourse with me.
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Wow, okay.
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Against my will. All right.
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And so what was
your reaction to that?
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Was that confusing
for a little boy your age?
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It was very
confusing, and in a way,
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it was something that I
felt like I wanted, I needed.
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The intimacy wasn't happening
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because of the
illness of my brother
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being in the hospital
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and my parents not really
being able to invest that time
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in that intimacy with me.
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And so having this
person just come and caress me
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and hold me like that was
comforting in a strange way.
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You know, Proverbs 27:7 says
that if you've had a full meal,
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you don't desire dessert.
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But to somebody who's starving,
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even something
bitter can taste sweet.
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And so it makes sense
that your brother's sick,
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your parents don't
have the emotional attention
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that you need at that time
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but, of course, you understand
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that your brother
needs that attention more.
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But in that
absence of what you needed,
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it's interesting that
this boy's attention to you,
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even though it was
brutal and a molestation,
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it still, in some respects, had
an element of pleasure to it.
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Right. We understand that.
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So was that the only time
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that something like
that happened for you?
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You know, I think this was...
No, it wasn't unfortunately.
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There was another incident
later on at a basketball game.
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My best friend and my
cousin, we were there,
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and it was just a
social basketball game,
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we thought we were
just going to come out
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and get some
exercise and have some fun.
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And I had this
chip on my shoulder
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because of this event that
had happened at an early age.
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I thought I was really cool,
I thought I was Mr. Kobe Bryant
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and living in Los Angeles,
I wanted to be like him.
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So on the basketball
court, I had an attitude,
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and actually, there
was a teacher of mine
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who was in
charge and supervising.
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That time there was supervision.
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And, you know, we
thought we were in good hands
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and we were
playing basketball there,
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and I walked off the court
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because I was upset because
there was a lot of rough play,
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there was a lot of fouling,
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and I wasn't
doing well in the game.
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I wasn't performing well.
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And so I stepped off the court
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and some words were
exchanged to me in that,
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"We don't need little
girls on the court anyway
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that are going to
have a bad attitude,
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a poor
attitude, be a bad sport."
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And it just so
happened that my dad said
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that I had to get a
ride with him to go home.
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And so he was our
only ride to go home.
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So your ride home
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was with the person
that was supervising.
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That's correct. He was a...
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He had a position in the church?
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That's right. Of responsibility.
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So quickly, what
happened that night?
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Yeah, that night,
it was time to go,
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and we were
finishing up the game,
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and I had just
been beside myself,
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and we were
going out to the truck
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and getting ready to get inside
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and he comes at me
and he tries to tell me,
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he tries to talk to me,
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and I just gave
him the cold shoulder.
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And he just took me by
the neck and grabbed me
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and started choking
me really violently.
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And, you know, I was shocked.
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And my cousin and my best friend
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were just frozen and shocked.
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They didn't know what to do.
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They were wanting to
jump in and intervene
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but they didn't know what to do.
00:10:00.16\00:10:02.20
They were afraid for themselves.
00:10:02.23\00:10:03.57
And it just so happened that
one of the elders of the church
00:10:03.60\00:10:06.70
was actually leaving and
came by and shone his light
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and said, "Is
everything all right?
00:10:09.64\00:10:10.97
Is everything going okay?"
00:10:11.01\00:10:12.34
And, you know, quickly,
he put his arm around me
00:10:12.37\00:10:15.11
and then said,
"No, everything's okay.
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It's fine."
00:10:16.64\00:10:17.98
So why was it you
weren't able to say,
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"No, everything is not okay"?
00:10:20.25\00:10:22.05
You know, a part of it was,
I think, the bondage of fear
00:10:22.08\00:10:26.35
but yet something
inside of me was just so afraid
00:10:26.39\00:10:29.52
that if I contented him
00:10:29.56\00:10:32.39
that I was going to
get hurt even further.
00:10:32.43\00:10:35.36
Okay, so now you have
this violent situation
00:10:35.40\00:10:38.83
with a leader of the church,
00:10:38.87\00:10:40.44
you've been molested
00:10:40.47\00:10:41.80
also in a Pathfinder
outing by older kids.
00:10:41.84\00:10:45.41
It seems that
you've been set up now...
00:10:45.44\00:10:47.58
this thing of
rejection and humiliation.
00:10:47.61\00:10:51.31
Has that been an issue,
00:10:51.35\00:10:52.68
you know, even
in your later years?
00:10:52.71\00:10:55.75
It was.
00:10:55.78\00:10:57.35
You know, shortly
after my brother passed,
00:10:57.39\00:11:00.12
and I began to...
00:11:00.16\00:11:03.09
So your brother passed?
Yeah, he lost his fight.
00:11:03.12\00:11:06.70
He ended up having
three liver transplants
00:11:06.73\00:11:09.06
by the time he passed away
and it just shook our family.
00:11:09.10\00:11:12.10
And each of us
grieved in different ways.
00:11:12.13\00:11:14.70
And we all had our own
bouts with sadness and grieving.
00:11:14.74\00:11:20.01
And my particular challenge
was in school and behavior.
00:11:20.04\00:11:24.55
I started listening to music,
hip-hop particularly Tupac,
00:11:24.58\00:11:27.55
and wanted to be in that culture
00:11:27.58\00:11:29.35
and searching for identity
00:11:29.38\00:11:30.92
and searching for
that friend, that mentor.
00:11:30.95\00:11:33.15
Many of them were bad
influences unfortunately.
00:11:33.19\00:11:35.32
And I remember at seventh grade,
00:11:35.36\00:11:38.73
I had to repeat
the seventh grade
00:11:38.76\00:11:40.10
because of just not
really paying attention
00:11:40.13\00:11:42.90
to what was going
on in the real world
00:11:42.93\00:11:45.10
and because I was
grieving I believe.
00:11:45.13\00:11:47.07
Right, right.
00:11:47.10\00:11:48.44
Doesn't that make sense that if,
00:11:48.47\00:11:49.97
you know, your home life
00:11:50.01\00:11:51.71
is really a
struggle and difficult,
00:11:51.74\00:11:53.41
here you've lost your brother,
00:11:53.44\00:11:54.91
the one relationship
that you said was very good,
00:11:54.94\00:11:57.75
that you were bonded
like Jonathan and David
00:11:57.78\00:12:00.32
and now all of a sudden,
this intimate relationship,
00:12:00.35\00:12:02.75
even though it wasn't sexual,
00:12:02.78\00:12:04.45
but it was an
intimate relationship for you,
00:12:04.49\00:12:05.82
now he's gone,
more abandonment issues,
00:12:05.85\00:12:08.52
more feelings of rejection,
00:12:08.56\00:12:10.79
and so now
trying to find yourself,
00:12:10.83\00:12:13.19
was there any other
exposure to same-sex interaction
00:12:13.23\00:12:18.70
during your early years?
00:12:18.73\00:12:20.34
Yeah, my brother had
a really good friend,
00:12:20.37\00:12:22.54
one of his best friends,
and was coming over the house,
00:12:22.57\00:12:24.94
and we would have sleepovers.
00:12:24.97\00:12:27.18
And he began to show us
00:12:27.21\00:12:30.25
and teach us
what masturbation was.
00:12:30.28\00:12:32.21
He actually, one night
00:12:32.25\00:12:33.72
he said I want to
show you something and...
00:12:33.75\00:12:36.69
Who did he say this to?
00:12:36.72\00:12:38.29
He said it to me, and he preyed
on me for some reason I think
00:12:38.32\00:12:43.46
because of just
something he wanted to do.
00:12:43.49\00:12:47.23
He was really good
friends with my brother,
00:12:47.26\00:12:48.60
not so much with myself.
00:12:48.63\00:12:50.03
But he isolated
me and found me alone
00:12:50.07\00:12:53.13
and just began to make moves.
00:12:53.17\00:12:55.37
And he said I want to show
you something I like to do.
00:12:55.40\00:12:58.64
And he began to
masturbate in front of me
00:12:58.67\00:13:02.64
and then showed me how to do it.
00:13:02.68\00:13:04.81
And that began...
00:13:04.85\00:13:06.45
And this went on
for a while, right?
00:13:06.48\00:13:08.28
This went on for several weeks
00:13:08.32\00:13:10.29
because it was during a
break for school and my parents,
00:13:10.32\00:13:13.99
again, completely
oblivious to anything
00:13:14.02\00:13:16.56
of this going on in the home.
00:13:16.59\00:13:18.66
I want to go
back a little bit more
00:13:18.69\00:13:20.73
and then we want to move on to,
00:13:20.76\00:13:23.30
you know, some more
struggles that you had earlier,
00:13:23.33\00:13:25.57
but you were 8
years old, the first time
00:13:25.60\00:13:28.00
that you were molested by this
16-year-old boy in the tent.
00:13:28.04\00:13:31.34
Two years later,
00:13:31.37\00:13:32.71
now your
brother's really struggling
00:13:32.74\00:13:34.08
with the liver issue.
00:13:34.11\00:13:35.44
You're feeling isolated
and alone, even in your world.
00:13:35.48\00:13:37.85
What happened again?
00:13:37.88\00:13:40.42
I went back to the first guy
that molested me in that tent.
00:13:40.45\00:13:47.22
So he's now 18
and you're now 10.
00:13:47.26\00:13:49.66
Ten, that's correct.
00:13:49.69\00:13:51.03
And I went to him,
00:13:51.06\00:13:52.39
and I remember it
was just so strange,
00:13:52.43\00:13:53.76
it was in church,
and a lot of the guys
00:13:53.80\00:13:56.46
would hang out in the back
bathroom in that church there.
00:13:56.50\00:13:59.70
And I remember going back
00:13:59.73\00:14:01.30
and not feeling like I
was a part of this church.
00:14:01.34\00:14:04.64
And I went to him and I said,
00:14:04.67\00:14:06.27
you know, "Would
you do that again?"
00:14:06.31\00:14:08.34
I was seeking for that intimacy,
00:14:08.38\00:14:09.71
that intimate
moment, that closeness again,
00:14:09.74\00:14:13.38
and I asked him to have sexual
intercourse with me again.
00:14:13.42\00:14:16.72
Right.
00:14:16.75\00:14:18.09
You know, I think what
really breaks my heart, Julian,
00:14:18.12\00:14:21.12
is to think of that little child
00:14:21.16\00:14:22.86
who the only way
he could feel valuable
00:14:22.89\00:14:25.86
or even to feel affirmed
was to ask his perpetrator
00:14:25.89\00:14:30.13
to repeat the offence.
00:14:30.17\00:14:31.93
And I think that a lot
of people understand that,
00:14:31.97\00:14:35.47
that have been molested
00:14:35.50\00:14:36.84
and have been
abused or whatever.
00:14:36.87\00:14:38.21
So, Julian, that's
some really hardcore damage
00:14:38.24\00:14:41.41
that happened to you early on.
00:14:41.44\00:14:42.84
So now, you know,
as you become an adult,
00:14:42.88\00:14:45.78
you know, how
dark did your walk get?
00:14:45.81\00:14:49.55
Yeah, after my brother passed,
00:14:49.58\00:14:52.55
I was invited to
start doing Bible work.
00:14:52.59\00:14:55.82
And so I really was broken
00:14:55.86\00:14:58.09
and I didn't feel
worthy of doing anything
00:14:58.13\00:15:01.36
in the realm of ministry at all.
00:15:01.40\00:15:03.33
And my pastor had
actually asked me,
00:15:03.37\00:15:05.37
that same pastor that
had appealed to my brother
00:15:05.40\00:15:07.40
and told him to give his life
to the Lord on his deathbed.
00:15:07.44\00:15:10.31
And he did give
his life to the Lord.
00:15:10.34\00:15:12.27
And I looked
forward to seeing him,
00:15:12.31\00:15:13.98
but I didn't know how
to really take my faith
00:15:14.01\00:15:17.51
and make it my own.
00:15:17.55\00:15:18.95
And so I was asked to
spend a 10-week period
00:15:18.98\00:15:22.38
doing Bible work,
00:15:22.42\00:15:23.75
but I didn't have
these issues resolved,
00:15:23.79\00:15:26.15
I had this baggage,
00:15:26.19\00:15:27.52
this sexual damage
in my life, in my mind,
00:15:27.56\00:15:30.76
and I oftentimes dealt
with forgiveness issues,
00:15:30.79\00:15:34.66
forgiveness particularly not
only from people but from God.
00:15:34.70\00:15:37.37
I didn't understand the gospel,
00:15:37.40\00:15:38.73
I didn't understand
the forgiveness of God
00:15:38.77\00:15:40.14
and the cross and His
blood that was shed for me.
00:15:40.17\00:15:44.17
So I was out
there doing ministry,
00:15:44.21\00:15:45.84
and going
pottering and Bible work,
00:15:45.87\00:15:48.61
but wasn't really...
00:15:48.64\00:15:50.91
What was going on
in your private life?
00:15:50.95\00:15:53.52
My private life, I was
still playing video games,
00:15:53.55\00:15:55.78
still seeking that
escape through masturbation,
00:15:55.82\00:15:58.59
and indulging in...
00:15:58.62\00:16:00.02
Any pornography during that?
00:16:00.06\00:16:01.39
Pornography was happening there,
00:16:01.42\00:16:02.76
I found a book
in my home actually,
00:16:02.79\00:16:05.13
and began to look into that book
00:16:05.16\00:16:07.96
and was bringing
pornography into the home,
00:16:08.00\00:16:11.03
and I remember, at
that point in time,
00:16:11.07\00:16:14.00
I was going to high school
shortly before the Bible work,
00:16:14.04\00:16:17.01
and I remember watching
pornography for the first time
00:16:17.04\00:16:19.47
and committing in my heart
00:16:19.51\00:16:20.84
and saying that
the first opportunity
00:16:20.88\00:16:23.11
I get to have sex with a
girl, I'm going to take it.
00:16:23.14\00:16:25.95
So, Julian, what
is so amazing to me
00:16:25.98\00:16:28.28
is that this is how
insidious pornography is,
00:16:28.32\00:16:32.32
how pornography
starts off with something
00:16:32.35\00:16:34.06
that you're viewing,
00:16:34.09\00:16:35.42
and then all of a sudden,
00:16:35.46\00:16:36.79
look at how quickly the
drive to actually act it out
00:16:36.83\00:16:39.26
or to perform it out,
00:16:39.29\00:16:40.63
and I hear that
story many times.
00:16:40.66\00:16:42.43
So now you have the pornography,
00:16:42.46\00:16:45.17
it leads you into
acting out sexually.
00:16:45.20\00:16:47.37
Here you are by day
being a good Bible worker,
00:16:47.40\00:16:50.61
but at night, how dark
did things really get for you?
00:16:50.64\00:16:53.34
It got...
00:16:53.38\00:16:54.71
You know, to the
point, where I was willing
00:16:54.74\00:16:56.08
to just seek out
this pleasure at any cost.
00:16:56.11\00:17:00.42
And when I say any cost,
00:17:00.45\00:17:01.78
I was being paid to do
the work of a Bible worker,
00:17:01.82\00:17:06.09
making honest money for the Lord
00:17:06.12\00:17:10.66
as a Bible co-coordinator.
00:17:10.69\00:17:12.03
But then I was, at night,
00:17:12.06\00:17:14.63
looking and seeing where
I could get that pleasure,
00:17:14.66\00:17:17.53
get that
intimacy, and I found a site
00:17:17.57\00:17:20.14
where people were soliciting
themselves as prostitutes.
00:17:20.17\00:17:24.67
And I went really low, I
remember seeing that site
00:17:24.71\00:17:29.64
and contacting individuals
00:17:29.68\00:17:31.35
on a regular basis
to pay them for sex.
00:17:31.38\00:17:34.82
Prostitution?
00:17:34.85\00:17:36.58
And what were
some of the categories
00:17:36.62\00:17:38.05
that you found interesting?
00:17:38.09\00:17:39.85
Some of the things
that were interesting to me
00:17:39.89\00:17:42.62
were the transgender sex,
00:17:42.66\00:17:45.99
and then there
was also just women,
00:17:46.03\00:17:48.53
and there was male.
00:17:48.56\00:17:50.50
Mostly, it was
just between the two,
00:17:50.53\00:17:52.07
the women and the transgender.
00:17:52.10\00:17:53.77
And then there was one category
00:17:53.80\00:17:56.81
where there was
a dominatrix and...
00:17:56.84\00:17:58.81
So that's
sadomasochism? That's right.
00:17:58.84\00:18:01.71
Humiliation. Okay.
00:18:01.74\00:18:03.45
A bondage type
situation where...
00:18:03.48\00:18:05.31
I think it's interesting to
put together the humiliation
00:18:05.35\00:18:07.95
that began that
night in the tent,
00:18:07.98\00:18:09.98
and maybe it
began with the rejection
00:18:10.02\00:18:11.65
of your birth mother,
00:18:11.69\00:18:13.92
you know, the fact that you lost
00:18:13.96\00:18:15.29
this intimate
relationship with your brother,
00:18:15.32\00:18:17.23
you know, he was
someone that was close to you.
00:18:17.26\00:18:18.93
And so I get it that physical
touch can resemble intimacy
00:18:18.96\00:18:23.73
and maybe it would...
00:18:23.77\00:18:25.40
Maybe would
satisfy for the moment,
00:18:25.43\00:18:27.50
but I also believe that
that was the driving force,
00:18:27.54\00:18:30.07
coming from
sexual addiction myself,
00:18:30.11\00:18:32.27
that every
innocuous encounter was again
00:18:32.31\00:18:35.91
some type of satisfaction
to a very painful reality.
00:18:35.94\00:18:39.88
And so describe that.
Yeah, it was, you know...
00:18:39.91\00:18:43.55
I think back a
little bit how I even went
00:18:43.59\00:18:45.95
and tried to hug the person
00:18:45.99\00:18:48.46
that physically
hurt me and choked me
00:18:48.49\00:18:51.66
and thinking something is
psychologically not right here,
00:18:51.69\00:18:53.93
and in this
incident, I met someone
00:18:53.96\00:18:58.03
who was practicing
dominatrix prostitution and...
00:18:58.07\00:19:02.20
This turned into a
relationship, right?
00:19:02.24\00:19:03.57
This did.
00:19:03.61\00:19:04.94
It actually developed
into an ongoing relationship
00:19:04.97\00:19:06.98
where I wasn't paying
00:19:07.01\00:19:08.78
and I would actually just go
to hang out with this person,
00:19:08.81\00:19:11.41
and they were so controlling.
00:19:11.45\00:19:13.25
You know, making me kiss
their feet, a lot of whipping,
00:19:13.28\00:19:16.85
and a lot of hitting and
just very, very damaging.
00:19:16.89\00:19:20.99
So it was not
just physical abuse
00:19:21.02\00:19:23.66
but also emotional
and verbal humiliation?
00:19:23.69\00:19:26.80
That's correct. So
what was the bottom-line?
00:19:26.83\00:19:30.17
What was it when you realized
00:19:30.20\00:19:33.10
that you really
reached the bottom?
00:19:33.13\00:19:36.71
You know, I think when
I realized is just that,
00:19:36.74\00:19:41.81
it really started with someone
coming to me and telling me,
00:19:41.84\00:19:45.58
you know, "Is
everything all right?"
00:19:45.61\00:19:47.38
And they actually told
my employer at the time
00:19:47.42\00:19:51.22
that they started
noticing some crumb trails.
00:19:51.25\00:19:54.42
Okay, so what I really
want to get to was the situation
00:19:54.46\00:20:00.90
where you're in a relationship
now with this dominatrix.
00:20:00.93\00:20:04.60
That's right,
okay, going back to that.
00:20:04.63\00:20:06.50
You know, she had told me,
we were having intercourse,
00:20:06.53\00:20:10.71
one incident, and she
actually had said that...
00:20:10.74\00:20:13.54
She looked you in the eye?
00:20:13.58\00:20:14.91
She looked me in
the eyes, and she said,
00:20:14.94\00:20:16.28
you know, "How do you enjoy
having sex with the devil?"
00:20:16.31\00:20:20.12
And it just
shook me. I panicked.
00:20:20.15\00:20:24.79
We stopped, and I said,
"No, you're not the devil.
00:20:24.82\00:20:26.79
No, there's no way."
00:20:26.82\00:20:28.16
And I tried at that moment
to try to connect and tell her,
00:20:28.19\00:20:31.29
you know, that
you're a child of God.
00:20:31.33\00:20:33.19
But, you know, you can't do that
00:20:33.23\00:20:34.90
after you've been leading a life
00:20:34.93\00:20:37.90
that was actually
soliciting her behavior.
00:20:37.93\00:20:40.44
Right.
00:20:40.47\00:20:41.80
So with your reaction,
00:20:41.84\00:20:44.27
now you hear these words about
being engaged with the devil
00:20:44.31\00:20:48.28
which was probably,
00:20:48.31\00:20:49.64
you know, a reminder
of all of the religion
00:20:49.68\00:20:52.61
that you were, you
know, walking with,
00:20:52.65\00:20:54.75
throughout your life.
00:20:54.78\00:20:56.12
Now all of a sudden,
00:20:56.15\00:20:57.49
the reality that you're
having sex with the devil.
00:20:57.52\00:20:59.22
How did that change?
00:20:59.25\00:21:01.62
We're going to wrap this up,
00:21:01.66\00:21:02.99
you know, just we want to talk
00:21:03.02\00:21:04.36
about how it was
that you got out?
00:21:04.39\00:21:06.46
Yeah, you know, I
took it upon myself.
00:21:06.49\00:21:09.60
You know, I was
making these choices,
00:21:09.63\00:21:10.97
and that really woke me up.
00:21:11.00\00:21:12.33
I got very afraid
from that incident.
00:21:12.37\00:21:14.64
And I knew the only way
00:21:14.67\00:21:16.27
that I could get
away from this situation
00:21:16.30\00:21:18.37
is if I had left and quit my job
00:21:18.41\00:21:20.98
and stopped
living this double life.
00:21:21.01\00:21:22.48
I was really engrossed,
00:21:22.51\00:21:24.21
I wasn't being honest
with this problem that I had.
00:21:24.25\00:21:27.72
So I went to my employer
and I told him, it was so hard,
00:21:27.75\00:21:30.29
it was one of the
hardest things I could ever do
00:21:30.32\00:21:32.05
and just told him that I
was leading a life of sexual sin
00:21:32.09\00:21:36.42
and still trying
to serve the Lord.
00:21:36.46\00:21:38.39
I like that
because one of the things
00:21:38.43\00:21:40.76
that we find in
recovery is that disclosure,
00:21:40.80\00:21:44.47
you know the Bible says to talk
00:21:44.50\00:21:46.53
about your
faults with one another.
00:21:46.57\00:21:48.44
And so I believe
that that was powerful
00:21:48.47\00:21:50.41
because you broke
the chains of the enemy
00:21:50.44\00:21:52.61
by not keeping a
secret with Satan.
00:21:52.64\00:21:55.11
That's right. That makes sense.
00:21:55.14\00:21:56.48
So you knew that you didn't
have the power on your own.
00:21:56.51\00:21:59.18
But how was it?
00:21:59.21\00:22:00.55
Incorporate the Holy Spirit now,
00:22:00.58\00:22:01.92
how was He speaking to you?
00:22:01.95\00:22:03.52
What was He providing for you
00:22:03.55\00:22:05.49
to help you in this journey out?
00:22:05.52\00:22:07.92
One of the main
things was leaving
00:22:07.96\00:22:10.33
and going to the country,
00:22:10.36\00:22:11.69
getting away and
beginning to work.
00:22:11.73\00:22:14.73
And while I was
in the wilderness,
00:22:14.76\00:22:16.50
I went to a small farm,
00:22:16.53\00:22:17.87
I talked to a
good friend of mine.
00:22:17.90\00:22:20.24
And he said,
00:22:20.27\00:22:21.60
you know, you didn't make
these decisions overnight.
00:22:21.64\00:22:24.61
These were a pattern of
a long life of bad choices
00:22:24.64\00:22:28.61
and instability of character.
00:22:28.64\00:22:29.98
And you need to
learn to work hard.
00:22:30.01\00:22:31.68
And agriculture will
really bring that about.
00:22:31.71\00:22:33.95
Getting in God's nature,
00:22:33.98\00:22:35.32
getting connected to what
God created for you to do.
00:22:35.35\00:22:39.89
And so I left, I
remember driving 32 hours,
00:22:39.92\00:22:43.53
leaving Arizona...
00:22:43.56\00:22:44.89
leaving Seattle,
going down to Arizona.
00:22:44.93\00:22:46.59
So what does getting
your hands in the dirt
00:22:46.63\00:22:49.10
have to do with a
relationship with God?
00:22:49.13\00:22:51.70
You know, it has so much to do.
00:22:51.73\00:22:53.60
We get back to what God
originally created us to do,
00:22:53.64\00:22:56.94
and that was tend the garden,
and you're thinking Genesis
00:22:56.97\00:23:00.78
how God took man and
put him eastward in Eden
00:23:00.81\00:23:03.71
to tend the garden.
00:23:03.75\00:23:05.08
But even there was a work
for man to do before he fell,
00:23:05.11\00:23:07.88
but then after the fall,
00:23:07.92\00:23:09.25
he cursed the
ground for his sake.
00:23:09.28\00:23:12.05
And that is such a miracle
that God had that in mind.
00:23:12.09\00:23:14.66
Make it personal for me, Julian.
00:23:14.69\00:23:16.22
Make it personal for the people
out there that are desperate
00:23:16.26\00:23:19.13
to want to come out
of the same existence
00:23:19.16\00:23:21.13
that you had.
00:23:21.16\00:23:22.50
How did it speak
to you personally?
00:23:22.53\00:23:24.63
Personally, as I
began to work in...
00:23:24.67\00:23:29.14
I'm pulling out the weeds,
00:23:29.17\00:23:30.84
and I'm out there
sometimes hours on end.
00:23:30.87\00:23:33.11
I remember being out there,
00:23:33.14\00:23:34.48
thinking this is
such a mundane dumb job.
00:23:34.51\00:23:36.95
I'm sweating out there,
00:23:36.98\00:23:38.61
and how come I can't be
in there growing the crops,
00:23:38.65\00:23:41.68
figuring out
some of these things?
00:23:41.72\00:23:43.05
And I remember
God just telling me,
00:23:43.08\00:23:44.65
never stop
weeding in the garden.
00:23:44.69\00:23:46.05
People would tell me, never
stop weeding in the garden.
00:23:46.09\00:23:48.36
Never stop weeding
those habits out of your life.
00:23:48.39\00:23:51.46
And it was just through
doing the work on the farm
00:23:51.49\00:23:54.10
and realizing that
there's a real connection
00:23:54.13\00:23:57.27
to these issues in my life
00:23:57.30\00:23:59.17
that I needed to weed it out
00:23:59.20\00:24:00.54
just as much as I was weeding
in the beds in the greenhouse.
00:24:00.57\00:24:03.64
So while you're
in this experience
00:24:03.67\00:24:06.54
where your hands are in the dirt
00:24:06.57\00:24:07.91
and you're seeing
real-life object lessons
00:24:07.94\00:24:10.41
between working in the dirt
with plants and your own life,
00:24:10.45\00:24:13.85
pulling out the weeds,
00:24:13.88\00:24:15.58
tell me how God
provided for you accountability?
00:24:15.62\00:24:19.62
Yeah, later on, I
got the opportunity
00:24:19.65\00:24:22.86
to go to Michigan and
work with young people.
00:24:22.89\00:24:27.26
And, you know, my
boss actually had told me,
00:24:27.30\00:24:29.66
my mentor, he's actually become
a really good friend of mine.
00:24:29.70\00:24:31.83
He said, "You're going
to be teaching to learn."
00:24:31.87\00:24:33.74
And so I thought
I was going to go
00:24:33.77\00:24:35.70
do something for young people.
00:24:35.74\00:24:37.41
But God actually
needed to put me in a place
00:24:37.44\00:24:40.14
where there
would be other people
00:24:40.18\00:24:41.74
coming to help other youth,
00:24:41.78\00:24:43.11
other young people
that were struggling
00:24:43.14\00:24:44.55
with thoughts of suicide
00:24:44.58\00:24:45.91
and already having sexual
deviance issues in their life.
00:24:45.95\00:24:49.52
And I was still struggling
after moving to Michigan,
00:24:49.55\00:24:53.46
my new job, and God was
giving me a new opportunity
00:24:53.49\00:24:56.16
to lead and to manage crops.
00:24:56.19\00:24:59.06
And I went to go to my
pastor, and I told him,
00:24:59.09\00:25:01.60
you know, "I
have all these things,
00:25:01.63\00:25:03.03
and I want to get
counseling on this."
00:25:03.06\00:25:04.47
And he said, "Well..."
00:25:04.50\00:25:05.83
You know, I told him, I
unloaded a lot in my life,
00:25:05.87\00:25:07.94
and he said there
was someone coming
00:25:07.97\00:25:09.34
and I want you to talk to him,
00:25:09.37\00:25:10.71
and I actually got
a chance to meet you,
00:25:10.74\00:25:12.21
and that's when I
had the opportunity
00:25:12.24\00:25:15.04
to share a lot with you
00:25:15.08\00:25:16.95
and some of these issues
that had been in my life.
00:25:16.98\00:25:20.38
Julian, there's so little time,
00:25:20.42\00:25:22.25
and there's so
much more to share.
00:25:22.28\00:25:24.82
We have to close.
00:25:24.85\00:25:26.19
But I really want
you to share the story
00:25:26.22\00:25:27.86
about when you
went to donate blood.
00:25:27.89\00:25:30.73
Yeah, and this
actually just happened
00:25:30.76\00:25:33.40
a couple of weeks ago.
00:25:33.43\00:25:34.76
I really felt impressed...
00:25:34.80\00:25:36.13
You know, I want
to go donate blood
00:25:36.16\00:25:37.77
and do
something good for others.
00:25:37.80\00:25:39.87
And I go into the blood bank,
00:25:39.90\00:25:42.07
and you go through and
answer a series of questions.
00:25:42.10\00:25:45.17
These questions
are really detailed,
00:25:45.21\00:25:46.54
actually they ask have you
ever had sexual intercourse
00:25:46.57\00:25:50.48
with a man from dates
from 1977 to the present
00:25:50.51\00:25:54.65
or have you ever had...
00:25:54.68\00:25:56.02
You're not even that
old. I'm not even that old.
00:25:56.05\00:25:58.55
So I'm like that's an
automatic check right there
00:25:58.59\00:26:01.26
because what had
happened, you know, in my life,
00:26:01.29\00:26:03.43
and I already
had engaged in that.
00:26:03.46\00:26:06.39
And the other question
was had you ever paid for sex.
00:26:06.43\00:26:11.03
And that was one
of the things as well,
00:26:11.07\00:26:12.53
and I could check both.
00:26:12.57\00:26:13.90
So I knew that my blood...
00:26:13.94\00:26:15.27
And I was automatically
deferred at that point.
00:26:15.30\00:26:17.61
So what does deferred mean?
00:26:17.64\00:26:19.51
It means that my blood
was of no use to anyone.
00:26:19.54\00:26:22.64
It was
rejected? It was rejected.
00:26:22.68\00:26:24.05
Okay, so the Holy
Spirit spoke to you.
00:26:24.08\00:26:26.61
And what was it that
the Holy Spirit said to you?
00:26:26.65\00:26:28.82
As I left the blood bank
that day, it was very clear,
00:26:28.85\00:26:31.39
the Holy Spirit just said,
00:26:31.42\00:26:32.75
you know, My blood
is sufficient for you.
00:26:32.79\00:26:34.99
In spite of you not being
able to donate your blood,
00:26:35.02\00:26:37.89
My blood is sufficient for you.
00:26:37.93\00:26:39.83
That's powerful.
00:26:39.86\00:26:41.20
You know, I
remember in Ezekiel 16,
00:26:41.23\00:26:43.77
it says that God
washes away our blood
00:26:43.80\00:26:47.04
and He cover us
with His righteousness.
00:26:47.07\00:26:49.34
And that, to me,
00:26:49.37\00:26:50.71
is a perfect
example of the power of God
00:26:50.74\00:26:53.34
to not just leave
you in your situation.
00:26:53.38\00:26:56.14
And here you
had this good cover,
00:26:56.18\00:26:58.18
this good front going
on, but at the same time,
00:26:58.21\00:27:00.52
you were really struggling with
some really deep dark things.
00:27:00.55\00:27:03.52
You had this
dichotomy going on in your life
00:27:03.55\00:27:06.29
that was really taking you out.
00:27:06.32\00:27:08.69
That's right. Right?
00:27:08.72\00:27:10.06
And so how beautiful
that even as an example,
00:27:10.09\00:27:12.96
just a few weeks ago,
that God chose each one of us
00:27:12.99\00:27:15.73
that our
weakness is an opportunity
00:27:15.76\00:27:18.10
for His strength
to be made perfect.
00:27:18.13\00:27:19.53
Isn't that right? That's right.
00:27:19.57\00:27:20.90
So My strength is made
perfect in your weakness.
00:27:20.94\00:27:22.27
Amen.
00:27:22.30\00:27:23.64
And so, you know, how wonderful
00:27:23.67\00:27:25.01
that God still
reminds each one of us that,
00:27:25.04\00:27:27.38
you know, it's not
our own righteousness
00:27:27.41\00:27:29.48
to rely on, it's His.
00:27:29.51\00:27:30.95
And so every day, I
remember that verse in Jeremiah
00:27:30.98\00:27:33.88
that says that the mind
is deceitful above all things
00:27:33.92\00:27:36.35
and desperately
wicked, who can know it.
00:27:36.38\00:27:38.25
And so what I
thought was my greatest curse
00:27:38.29\00:27:40.09
is really my greatest blessing.
00:27:40.12\00:27:42.22
If every day I wake up
and acknowledge the fact
00:27:42.26\00:27:44.43
that I need something stronger
00:27:44.46\00:27:46.80
and more
powerful than what I have.
00:27:46.83\00:27:49.60
We know that the
blood is what does that.
00:27:49.63\00:27:51.37
That's right.
Thank you for sharing.
00:27:51.40\00:27:52.87
We hope that you'll
come and join us again
00:27:52.90\00:27:54.44
for another
program on Pure Choices.
00:27:54.47\00:27:56.77
Thank you.
00:27:56.81\00:27:58.14