The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Hello and
welcome to Pure Choices.
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I'm your host
Pastor Joshua Nelson.
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I'm so glad you
decided to join us once again
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for another
edition of Pure Choices.
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Today, our title is
Loving Every Community.
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And we want to talk specifically
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to the LGBTQIA community.
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And I know this is going
to be a very sensitive topic,
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but it's a necessary discussion.
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So before we get into it,
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let us bow our heads
for a moment of prayer.
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Heavenly Father, God,
we ask that your presence
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will be with us right now.
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Send Your Spirit, God,
to guide this conversation.
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In Jesus' name
we pray, amen. Amen.
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All right, to my
left, introducing the panel,
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we have Pastor KP Douglas,
pastor in Southeast Missouri.
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Good to have you
here, my brother.
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Good to be here, man.
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And we have his wife as well
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here on the
couch Kimberly Douglas.
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So glad you're
here with us today.
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Next to her we
have the Morales family,
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Xavier and Brittany,
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so glad that you all
are here with us today.
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Let us get into this discussion.
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This is definitely
a hot topic right now,
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a necessary
discussion that we need to have
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as young Seventh-day
Adventist Christians,
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we especially
need to address this
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because this community
has been hurt by our church,
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I would say, and
by other churches
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who may not necessarily
know how to address them,
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how to speak to
what they are feeling.
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And so I want us to
be sensitive to that
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and understand that
as we discuss today.
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And I want us to
talk to this community,
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now, you know, this is
a very broad community.
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Of course we know that,
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you know,
originally it's the LGBT.
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But of course, they've added
the "Q" and the "I" and the "A"
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to broaden the
scope of that community.
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And so we want to talk
to, you know, lesbians, gays,
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bisexuals,
transgender, they added the "Q"
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which means queer, or
intersexual, and asexual,
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and we want to
address these individuals.
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But the first question
I want to have for you all
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is how do you feel
towards this community?
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Let's just be honest.
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How do you feel
towards this community?
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As Christians,
what are your feelings
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towards this community?
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And I'm going to
start with Brittany
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to begin with her statement.
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As time progresses,
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I guess I'm
feeling more confused
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almost as maybe
confused as the homosexual
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or even the LGBTQIA
community is feeling.
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There are so many
different elements
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and spectrums to it.
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For starters,
with homosexuality,
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you have this element
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of maybe you're
just experimenting,
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so you're not
really a homosexual,
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you're just
experimenting with someone else
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or maybe you're
just in that position,
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your situational homosexual
where you're in prison,
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so you just have to do that
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because there's no
one else to do it with.
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Or if you're
social world homosexual
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where they just made you into,
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like there are so many
different elements to it
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and even the preferential way,
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you're just
preferring to be a homosexual
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but you're not very active
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because something
bad happened to you,
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you decide to be...
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There's just so much
different elements to it.
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It's kind of
confusing to really pinpoint
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what exactly is
this entire spectrum.
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Okay, that's an
honest response there.
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Yeah, and that's something
I'm sure a lot of us share,
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it's kind of
confusing to really understand
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the depth of the subject.
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I kind of stand in the same area
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where, you know, I embrace,
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but then at the same
time, you know, I'm confused
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as to what it means,
you know, am I accepting,
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am I rejecting, or am
I loving them as Christ,
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what is it, you know,
what does that look like?
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And for me, it also
takes a different route
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because I have relatives
that are of that community.
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So it's a
difficult position to be in.
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But at the same time,
you know, I understand,
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you know, the battle
between from just listening
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to what they said to me,
not understanding them per se
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but understanding
what they're saying
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and also the fact that,
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you know, other
elements are contributing to it.
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So it's a difficult
stance. I can't say, you know...
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I can't pinpoint exactly
where I go with that situation,
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but I mean, I love my family,
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so I'm not going to reject them,
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you know what I mean.
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It's a difficult
transition to understand.
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Okay. I too can
resonate with Xavier.
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It's difficult
to condemn someone
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or speak or think ill of them,
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you know, in that community
when someone that you know,
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someone you're
close to has that,
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you know, or
identifies with that community.
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And while I don't
understand it all,
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that doesn't
necessarily mean that I,
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you know, agree with everything
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or that I
disagree with everything.
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So I think it's...
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And then as time
passes, as Brittany said,
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more comes out
and you learn more.
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So I think that, you
know, it definitely is something
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we need to talk about
and see what our position is
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because it's a difficult topic.
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Yeah, and I guess, for me...
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And I'll get to
Kory next, you know,
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I just kind of have
felt very ignorant about it.
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I don't know too much about it.
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I can say I don't
have anyone in my family
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who's in that community.
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I have been kind of unsure
of really what to say about it
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because as a pastor,
you know, there are things
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that you're supposed to
be able to say and not say.
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And, you know, I want
to be able to just preach
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what I see the
Bible speaking and saying.
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And so, you know,
it is very confusing
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for me as well to understand.
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But I think for me I
try to be as sympathetic
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and empathetic as I can
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because I know
that I too struggle
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with things as well
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especially in the sexual nature.
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And maybe have
in turn identified
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or found a new
way to identify myself
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just to justify
things that I do, you know.
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So, you know, it's
a very slippery slope
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and touchy subject,
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but I just really
want to ultimately
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really want to learn
more, you know, about it.
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My guess I would have to say,
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I'm not pro-homosexual,
not anti-homosexual.
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I'm pro-Christ.
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I don't know if
that sounds too cliched.
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And the Christ I
know is a God of love.
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If I could just quote
some of the things He said,
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you know, the healthy are
not in need of a physician.
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I have not come to condemn
but to seek and save the lost.
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And I do believe
that this community falls
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into the same
category that we all fall into.
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You know, as the Bible
says, we've all come short
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and we've all sinned.
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And so we're all
in need of salvation,
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whether we know it or not,
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you know, we're all
in need of salvation.
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I, you know,
even with that said,
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I may be a little fearful of it,
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you know, my
culture, my background
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is not very friendly
towards that community.
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I mean, so you are a
little fearful of it,
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you know, especially
as a heterosexual man,
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you know, I'm
going to eventually have
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to send my children
to schools knowing that
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some of the
teachers may be homosexual.
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And, you know, as
much as you don't condemn,
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you know, people necessarily,
you know, you still don't want
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your children to
pick up that lifestyle.
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It's also a little,
it's a little scary as well.
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So we definitely have
some issues in some respects
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and some confusion
that we're working through.
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And also I think
in general most of us
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would have been taught
or at least believe that,
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you know, the lifestyle is not
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what has been
condoned in the Bible.
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And this is the type of language
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that we speak and say
in terms of it being a sin
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and that it seems from
what I experienced has caused
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that community to feel
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a little bit of
resentment towards
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those type of
statements, you know.
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So let's just, before we
go into the biblical stance,
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let's talk about how
do you think they feel,
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that community
feels about how the church
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has been
addressing their community?
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Oh, isolated.
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You know,
rejected because we want
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to present a message of love
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but our own fears and
insecurities and ignorance
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presents a message of
hate of if you don't change,
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you're going to hell.
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When in reality that's,
you know, that's all of us,
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if we don't change,
if we don't get better,
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we're all going to hell.
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You know, and I think that's,
you know, where a lot of times
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where the church
message, where it stands,
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it's a message of
condemnation rather than,
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you know, let
us reason together,
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let us come together, you know.
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It's a message of fear.
It's a fear-driven message.
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Someone wants to add
to that? How do they feel?
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To probably add to
what Xavier was saying about
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isolation, feeling rejected,
when we think about everything
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that we say in our
church not only the scriptures
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that we use say
that's against homosexuality
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are statements of in the garden,
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God created Adam
and Eve, man and woman,
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for them to be
fruitful and multiply.
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This community commented like
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"Well, we can't really
be fruitful and multiply.
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So how do we fit into this?"
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Or even when we talk about
Ephesians and about the family,
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husband and wife,
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and all those
statements that were made,
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"Okay, so how
do I fit into this?
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How does that work out for me?"
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They come into our
church or even being raised
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in our churches,
trying to figure out,
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okay, this is how I'm feeling.
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I love this person or I
really like this person.
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But the Bible
doesn't really give
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any stipulations for me.
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And I guess that's why
we had that situation where
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some members of
the community created
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a Bible about Adam and Steve
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all of a sudden
trying to figure out
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where does exactly God
have for me in this place.
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That's one of the huge issues.
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I think a good
word to use is lost.
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You know, they may feel lost.
There's just no place for them.
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And I can't say I feel that
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I don't know
exactly how they feel,
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you know, but I
can say I kind of know
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how they feel as a young pastor
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who is just
different than everybody,
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and this is inside the church.
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Sometimes I feel lost.
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You know, so I can understand...
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Sometimes as a black
man, I feel lost as well
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and just in the outside world.
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But I do believe they feel
lost and that's whether or not
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they are practicing
inside or outside the church.
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I think even the
people who are outside,
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well, now
society has kind of made
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a little bit more
leeway for this community.
00:10:49.84\00:10:52.38
But I do believe that
it's still easy to feel lost.
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You know. Sure. Sure.
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Oh, go ahead,
Brittany, add some more.
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Oh, if I could add more
to what Kory was saying,
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that whole lost aspect,
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speaking to some
of my closest friends
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who are gay,
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they consider themselves
lesbians or homosexual.
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The issue of when
you're talking to loved ones
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and they don't fully understand
and there are so many myths
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that are going
around about this community,
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about how if you're near them
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you might catch it
like it's a disease,
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and feeling that rejection
so many different levels
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because you want to come to
your parents and feel loved.
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But they don't know exactly
what you're going through.
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So they reject you based on
things that are not even true.
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And some of my
friends are still...
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They don't really
fully understand everything
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that's going on as a homosexual.
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That's what they're
identifying themselves as.
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And even the different spectrums
00:11:47.37\00:11:48.70
of not every
homosexual is sexually active,
00:11:48.74\00:11:51.54
but yet, it's
assumed that they all are,
00:11:51.57\00:11:53.68
and trying to deal with
all those different myths
00:11:53.71\00:11:56.14
and stereotypes and
biases is really hard
00:11:56.18\00:11:59.21
to try to figure
out who you really are.
00:11:59.25\00:12:02.65
And I tried sometimes to
see how it would be to have
00:12:02.68\00:12:05.72
someone say to
me my very identity
00:12:05.75\00:12:07.92
what I feel that I am,
00:12:07.96\00:12:09.39
who I am is not
true and it's not right,
00:12:09.42\00:12:12.46
it's not how I should
feel, it's not who I should be.
00:12:12.49\00:12:15.33
You know, those are
the kind of feelings
00:12:15.36\00:12:18.57
that they would
have, I mean, you know,
00:12:18.60\00:12:20.90
so you're
threatening who I am, you know.
00:12:20.94\00:12:23.27
So, you know,
when we speak about it,
00:12:23.30\00:12:25.81
you know, we have to
take that into account
00:12:25.84\00:12:27.71
of how we are addressing
the individual separate
00:12:27.74\00:12:31.65
from really what
we feel is incorrect
00:12:31.68\00:12:34.08
or unbiblical
according to God's Word.
00:12:34.12\00:12:37.92
So let's transition
then into those things.
00:12:37.95\00:12:39.55
Let's talk about
what does the Bible say
00:12:39.59\00:12:41.99
or even what does God say
00:12:42.02\00:12:44.99
and some direction
that we can find to,
00:12:45.03\00:12:49.36
"Is this the lifestyle that
we are supposed to be living?"
00:12:49.40\00:12:53.64
Who wants to start?
00:12:53.67\00:12:55.00
Well, the Bible is pretty clear,
00:12:55.04\00:12:57.77
you know,
scripturally it's pretty clear
00:12:57.81\00:12:59.84
that God is not really
a fan of homosexuality.
00:12:59.87\00:13:04.65
I don't know if we can say that
00:13:04.68\00:13:06.01
He's not a fan of the community,
00:13:06.05\00:13:07.62
but He's pretty clear.
00:13:07.65\00:13:09.15
First, I would start
with, you know, all have sinned
00:13:09.18\00:13:10.62
and come short.
00:13:10.65\00:13:11.99
I have to classify, you
know, just the orientation...
00:13:12.02\00:13:15.26
Or not the
orientation really, the act,
00:13:15.29\00:13:17.49
you know, in the
orientation as sin
00:13:17.53\00:13:19.76
as well as
verses like Romans 1:24
00:13:19.79\00:13:21.80
let us know that, you
know, God has given us all over
00:13:21.83\00:13:24.63
because of our nature,
He's allowed for us to,
00:13:24.67\00:13:28.34
you know, make our
own choices, you know.
00:13:28.37\00:13:30.51
And so to some respect,
00:13:30.54\00:13:33.04
well, you know,
not to some respect,
00:13:33.07\00:13:34.41
but the Bible is
clear that in giving us over
00:13:34.44\00:13:36.54
some of the things we go after
is sexual immorality, you know.
00:13:36.58\00:13:40.02
And I don't want
anybody to be confused.
00:13:40.05\00:13:41.98
You know, sexual immorality
is not just homosexuality,
00:13:42.02\00:13:44.52
you know, it's also fornication
00:13:44.55\00:13:46.62
between
heterosexuals, you know, so...
00:13:46.65\00:13:49.36
But the Bible is
pretty clear. Yeah.
00:13:49.39\00:13:50.93
Yeah. Yeah, that's very true.
00:13:50.96\00:13:53.16
And fornication
is the sin, you know.
00:13:53.19\00:13:56.13
Let's make that
clear, you know, we're not...
00:13:56.16\00:13:59.27
No, we don't know what
happens behind closed doors,
00:13:59.30\00:14:01.54
but it's between you
and God to know that,
00:14:01.57\00:14:04.14
you know, when you have
sex outside of marriage,
00:14:04.17\00:14:06.54
which is between
a man and a woman,
00:14:06.57\00:14:08.74
in the biblical
stance, that is considered,
00:14:08.78\00:14:11.88
you know, fornication
and that is considered
00:14:11.91\00:14:13.65
something that God
is not pleased with.
00:14:13.68\00:14:16.15
What are some other things,
00:14:16.18\00:14:17.52
biblical
parameters that we can use
00:14:17.55\00:14:18.89
because there are a
lot of texts in the Bible
00:14:18.92\00:14:20.26
that we quote that
00:14:20.29\00:14:22.19
many who have
taken those same verses
00:14:22.22\00:14:24.03
and said that's not
what was originally intended
00:14:24.06\00:14:25.66
for those verses to mean,
you know, we have to read,
00:14:25.69\00:14:28.30
classify them, look
at the context, you know,
00:14:28.33\00:14:31.40
and say, you know, you're
using that verse against me,
00:14:31.43\00:14:34.20
that verse is taken
out of context, you know.
00:14:34.24\00:14:36.34
And if I can just
say really quickly
00:14:36.37\00:14:38.54
because Kory started
with the Bible is clear,
00:14:38.57\00:14:41.94
and then you're saying now
00:14:41.98\00:14:43.31
that people take text
and use them out of context.
00:14:43.35\00:14:47.18
So I think that's something
that also needs to be addressed
00:14:47.22\00:14:50.15
because, you know,
I can look at a text
00:14:50.19\00:14:53.19
and read it and
walk away with a meaning.
00:14:53.22\00:14:56.52
Brittany can walk away
with a different meaning.
00:14:56.56\00:14:58.63
And that's when, you
know, the Holy Spirit
00:14:58.66\00:15:01.23
I would say is not
leading in interpretation.
00:15:01.26\00:15:04.83
And so we need
to be careful with,
00:15:04.87\00:15:07.34
you know, just taking a text
00:15:07.37\00:15:09.84
and fitting it
to our preference.
00:15:09.87\00:15:14.31
And I think that happens,
00:15:14.34\00:15:16.11
I'm not saying it
happens with everyone.
00:15:16.14\00:15:18.55
But I think that
definitely happens
00:15:18.58\00:15:20.42
where we take
texts or we take stories
00:15:20.45\00:15:23.02
or we take instances
00:15:23.05\00:15:24.65
and fit them
according to our preference.
00:15:24.69\00:15:27.42
Yeah. We do that a lot.
00:15:27.46\00:15:28.79
And I know in theology
school, we're taught to come
00:15:28.82\00:15:30.76
to the Bible and study
00:15:30.79\00:15:32.13
and to try to take away
all of your predispositions,
00:15:32.16\00:15:34.20
all of your
worldviews and just come to it
00:15:34.23\00:15:36.23
in the purest form.
00:15:36.26\00:15:37.60
And that's pretty
much impossible to do that,
00:15:37.63\00:15:39.03
you know.
00:15:39.07\00:15:40.40
But you have to look at the text
00:15:40.44\00:15:42.04
and let the Spirit, you
know, lead you in guiding you.
00:15:42.07\00:15:44.97
And I think I want to say
this right here as well that,
00:15:45.01\00:15:47.44
you know, sexual sins are
very different than other sins.
00:15:47.48\00:15:52.61
And according to the
Bible, you know, Paul talked
00:15:52.65\00:15:54.35
in the 1 Corinthians
6 that there are sins
00:15:54.38\00:15:56.15
that are done outside the body
00:15:56.18\00:15:57.75
and there are sins
that are done to the body.
00:15:57.79\00:16:00.06
And so, you know,
these are serious things
00:16:00.09\00:16:01.89
because ultimately he says
00:16:01.92\00:16:03.26
it will affect the
Holy Spirit speaking to you
00:16:03.29\00:16:05.39
and affect your connection.
00:16:05.43\00:16:07.60
So I think this
is important for us
00:16:07.63\00:16:08.96
to really dive into this.
00:16:09.00\00:16:10.33
I want you all to
go a little deeper into
00:16:10.37\00:16:11.70
what are the ramifications
if you do not follow
00:16:11.73\00:16:16.40
what God is saying
for you to do in His Word.
00:16:16.44\00:16:19.97
I kind of want to add
something because it seems like
00:16:20.01\00:16:23.35
we're automatically assuming
that every person that is...
00:16:23.38\00:16:27.42
Is Christian.
00:16:27.45\00:16:29.15
Probably not only that,
everybody is not Christian.
00:16:29.18\00:16:31.65
But the element of,
okay, are we saying that
00:16:31.69\00:16:35.62
just having the
feelings makes me be condemned?
00:16:35.66\00:16:38.33
Like, okay, I am looking at
this person of the same sex.
00:16:38.36\00:16:43.77
And I'm not sure
what's happening in my body
00:16:43.80\00:16:46.27
or maybe I'm not having
anything reacting in my body,
00:16:46.30\00:16:49.87
like for the asexuals,
00:16:49.90\00:16:51.24
they're looking
at different people
00:16:51.27\00:16:52.81
whether it's male or female.
00:16:52.84\00:16:55.18
And they have no
response sexually.
00:16:55.21\00:16:57.58
Are you saying
that I am at odds?
00:16:57.61\00:16:59.35
Or what if I think I
was supposed to be a man
00:16:59.38\00:17:02.78
but I'm a woman, are you saying
my feelings is what is a sin?
00:17:02.82\00:17:07.09
Or are you saying if I
take it to the next step
00:17:07.12\00:17:10.69
and move forward to okay, I
am going to try to be a man,
00:17:10.73\00:17:14.03
is trying to be a man
00:17:14.06\00:17:15.40
when I was born
as a female a sin?
00:17:15.43\00:17:17.70
Those are the questions that
00:17:17.73\00:17:19.50
we don't really
answer in our church,
00:17:19.53\00:17:22.20
we just
automatically assume, yes,
00:17:22.24\00:17:24.34
if you say you're homosexual,
00:17:24.37\00:17:26.24
that means you have
slept with maybe 25 people,
00:17:26.27\00:17:29.11
so you are really condemned.
00:17:29.14\00:17:31.08
But the reality is,
they probably just might be
00:17:31.11\00:17:32.85
sitting down trying to
figure out the feelings
00:17:32.88\00:17:34.75
and questioning
God, do you hate me
00:17:34.78\00:17:36.79
because I have these
feelings? Yeah, yeah.
00:17:36.82\00:17:38.82
So let's talk about the
principles in God's Word
00:17:38.85\00:17:41.22
that we can use to
answer some of these questions.
00:17:41.26\00:17:43.26
It was very valid
questions that you just read.
00:17:43.29\00:17:45.99
Well, just real
quick before Xavier,
00:17:46.03\00:17:47.96
that Professor Xavier...
00:17:48.00\00:17:50.73
You know, I always tell my
wife expressly when, you know,
00:17:50.77\00:17:53.37
we have heated moments, we
cannot help the way we feel.
00:17:53.40\00:17:57.24
You cannot help
the way you feel.
00:17:57.27\00:17:59.47
There's nothing you can do.
00:17:59.51\00:18:01.11
When somebody cuts me off
in the traffic, I feel angry.
00:18:01.14\00:18:04.65
I don't turn that on. I
don't decide to get angry.
00:18:04.68\00:18:07.22
I just feel that way, you know.
00:18:07.25\00:18:09.38
And the thing about it is
00:18:09.42\00:18:11.19
depends on your
original predisposition.
00:18:11.22\00:18:13.56
I believe that
the world was perfect
00:18:13.59\00:18:16.09
and so that our
orientation was towards God
00:18:16.12\00:18:18.76
but with sin, you know,
our feelings become distorted.
00:18:18.79\00:18:22.46
You know what I'm saying.
00:18:22.50\00:18:23.83
I mean, there's
always that question about
00:18:23.87\00:18:25.20
why you born homosexual
or you made homosexual.
00:18:25.23\00:18:26.90
And I believe that
just as you can be born
00:18:26.94\00:18:29.44
with a
propensity towards alcohol,
00:18:29.47\00:18:31.17
towards lying like I
have a cousin that just lies.
00:18:31.21\00:18:35.51
And I don't know why she lies
00:18:35.54\00:18:37.25
but it's like it's just
in her to do it, you know.
00:18:37.28\00:18:40.02
And I do believe
that you could be born
00:18:40.05\00:18:41.72
with certain feelings,
with certain dispositions like,
00:18:41.75\00:18:44.62
you know, all of a sudden,
00:18:44.65\00:18:45.99
you're attracted
to the opposite sex,
00:18:46.02\00:18:47.82
then that didn't
make you homosexual.
00:18:47.86\00:18:49.79
Sin, I mean,
there is the sin problem
00:18:49.82\00:18:52.86
that God has done
everything to control
00:18:52.89\00:18:55.60
in the death of
Christ and resurrection.
00:18:55.63\00:18:57.27
But then there's
also the acting upon,
00:18:57.30\00:18:59.37
you know, those
feelings that that God considers
00:18:59.40\00:19:01.57
the actual sins that you commit
00:19:01.60\00:19:03.94
that kind of
separates you from Him.
00:19:03.97\00:19:05.61
And so the
feelings don't make you bad.
00:19:05.64\00:19:07.78
It's acting on those feelings.
00:19:07.81\00:19:09.44
You know, you don't go
to jail for thinking about,
00:19:09.48\00:19:12.41
you know, being so
mad you think about
00:19:12.45\00:19:13.78
killing someone, you go to jail
00:19:13.82\00:19:15.15
for actually
killing someone, you know.
00:19:15.18\00:19:17.05
So well, I was going
to challenge that but...
00:19:17.09\00:19:21.56
You know, your
thoughts and your mind,
00:19:21.59\00:19:23.73
God talks with
us, the root is really
00:19:23.76\00:19:25.23
what you're thinking about.
00:19:25.26\00:19:26.59
You know, how would you
argue that if I'm thinking about
00:19:26.63\00:19:30.33
I hate you guys is
just as bad as if I,
00:19:30.37\00:19:32.77
you know, went ahead
and killed them so...
00:19:32.80\00:19:35.17
But that's something
that you can discuss.
00:19:35.20\00:19:37.04
But I don't
think it's quite taking
00:19:37.07\00:19:39.74
what Brittany said,
00:19:39.77\00:19:41.11
I don't think it's
gotten to that point
00:19:41.14\00:19:42.74
where you're saying I hate you.
00:19:42.78\00:19:44.58
Remember, she said
the person feels this way
00:19:44.61\00:19:47.45
and they're trying to
balance what's going on inside.
00:19:47.48\00:19:51.65
It's not, "I feel this way.
Therefore I am. I know I am."
00:19:51.69\00:19:56.69
It's, "I feel this
way. What's going on?
00:19:56.73\00:19:59.43
What do I do about it?"
00:19:59.46\00:20:01.00
So I don't think
we can classify it
00:20:01.03\00:20:03.16
as the actual act as, you know,
00:20:03.20\00:20:05.33
that the text says
there in your mind, you know.
00:20:05.37\00:20:07.84
So they are trying
to weigh it I think.
00:20:07.87\00:20:10.21
Professor X.
00:20:10.24\00:20:11.84
I think too, we
have to remember that
00:20:11.87\00:20:13.84
the Bible clearly says
we're all shaped in iniquity.
00:20:13.88\00:20:16.85
As a result of sin
we're going to be born,
00:20:16.88\00:20:19.48
you know, that's
where you get down syndrome,
00:20:19.51\00:20:21.08
that's where
you get other things
00:20:21.12\00:20:22.55
that happen as a result.
00:20:22.58\00:20:23.99
Not saying that
those people are sinful
00:20:24.02\00:20:26.32
but because sin
happened, our bodies are changed
00:20:26.35\00:20:29.82
and our
physiological areas are change,
00:20:29.86\00:20:33.33
you know or we produce things
can happen we run into risks.
00:20:33.36\00:20:37.17
Not saying that
they're born that way
00:20:37.20\00:20:38.53
because even the
scientific community
00:20:38.57\00:20:40.50
as we like to call the
"pagan scientific community"
00:20:40.54\00:20:43.20
agrees that the
fact that they have yet
00:20:43.24\00:20:44.77
to find a gene
that says, you know,
00:20:44.81\00:20:46.57
"You're born a homosexual,
asexual, intersexual."
00:20:46.61\00:20:48.91
You know, a lot of
these things are...
00:20:48.94\00:20:51.61
if you really
look down the road,
00:20:51.65\00:20:52.98
a lot these things come from
issues stemmed from the past.
00:20:53.01\00:20:56.05
Deep down, you
know, they agreed that
00:20:56.08\00:20:58.05
is a nature
versus nurture issue.
00:20:58.09\00:21:01.76
You know, there are
so many different areas
00:21:01.79\00:21:04.06
and the Bible was very clear.
00:21:04.09\00:21:05.99
You know, the
issue that I have is
00:21:06.03\00:21:09.80
I want to learn
how to love, you know.
00:21:09.83\00:21:12.40
But the Bible clearly
condemns me and everybody else.
00:21:12.43\00:21:15.90
You know, we've all fall
short of the glory of God.
00:21:15.94\00:21:18.31
But, you know, do I,
00:21:18.34\00:21:21.04
me as a heterosexual
male who's, you know,
00:21:21.08\00:21:25.55
had multiple
partners in the past,
00:21:25.58\00:21:27.48
do I settle for the fact that
00:21:27.52\00:21:29.52
do I continue in
what I know is wrong?
00:21:29.55\00:21:33.76
Or do I even know it's
wrong? You know, am I accepting?
00:21:33.79\00:21:36.56
And that's the issue, you
know, I hate to put it this way
00:21:36.59\00:21:40.40
because I love my
God, I love the Bible
00:21:40.43\00:21:42.50
but sin has done so
much of a distortion
00:21:42.53\00:21:44.73
that we've turned it into...
00:21:44.77\00:21:46.10
It's more of a
psychological issue
00:21:46.13\00:21:47.87
where we refuse to
accept what's in front of us.
00:21:47.90\00:21:51.07
We refused to accept
the fact that, you know,
00:21:51.11\00:21:53.34
"I feel good, it feels
good. I live this way."
00:21:53.38\00:21:56.71
You're saying
no. I'm saying yes.
00:21:56.75\00:21:58.08
It's like a child,
you know, you touch...
00:21:58.11\00:21:59.68
"Don't touch that."
They go and touch it.
00:21:59.71\00:22:02.22
You know, it's
complete rebellion.
00:22:02.25\00:22:03.99
Even the Bible
says that, you know,
00:22:04.02\00:22:06.19
everything that is not of
God is rebellion against God.
00:22:06.22\00:22:09.12
And just something
that seems right to you.
00:22:09.16\00:22:12.26
We trust our own feelings
ultimately the Bible says
00:22:12.29\00:22:13.86
it's going to
lead to destruction.
00:22:13.90\00:22:15.23
So let's be careful with that.
00:22:15.26\00:22:17.67
But you said
something about falling short,
00:22:17.70\00:22:19.70
you know, do we really...
00:22:19.73\00:22:21.94
You know, if I'm
in this community,
00:22:21.97\00:22:23.30
do I really feel
that I have fallen
00:22:23.34\00:22:24.67
short of the glory of God,
you know, can we just make sure
00:22:24.71\00:22:27.58
that's clear how do we
feel or what does the Bible say
00:22:27.61\00:22:33.25
in terms of is
having sexual relations
00:22:33.28\00:22:38.49
outside of a
heterosexual marriage
00:22:38.52\00:22:40.09
is that considered
as sin in the Bible.
00:22:40.12\00:22:43.43
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:22:43.46\00:22:44.79
Let's make it clear.
00:22:44.83\00:22:46.16
Lay that foundation,
marriage is meant for...
00:22:46.19\00:22:48.50
I mean, sex is meant
for marriage, period.
00:22:48.53\00:22:53.13
You know, sex was made by God.
00:22:53.17\00:22:54.87
I mean, so we assume that
everybody believes in God,
00:22:54.90\00:22:57.34
you know, but as a
believers, as a Christian,
00:22:57.37\00:22:59.97
and you know as a Christian
struggling homosexuality
00:23:00.01\00:23:02.71
even before you get to
the orientation question,
00:23:02.74\00:23:05.01
sex is meant for marriage.
00:23:05.05\00:23:06.38
Okay, and I say that
because there's obviously
00:23:06.41\00:23:07.78
a debate some that
00:23:07.82\00:23:09.15
that is not
considered to be totally true.
00:23:09.18\00:23:11.15
And then my
question from that is
00:23:11.19\00:23:13.05
if we believe that is
true according to God's Word
00:23:13.09\00:23:15.39
and what he says,
00:23:15.42\00:23:16.76
does God change
His mind down the line
00:23:16.79\00:23:18.36
and say, you know what,
because of the environment
00:23:18.39\00:23:21.46
because of the society
00:23:21.50\00:23:22.96
it is now
permissible for you to do.
00:23:23.00\00:23:25.43
The thing with that is again
and kind of jumping off that.
00:23:25.47\00:23:28.80
You know, we now
open the door to say,
00:23:28.84\00:23:30.61
"Well, since they're
having sex outside..."
00:23:30.64\00:23:32.74
Or people having
sex outside of marriage,
00:23:32.77\00:23:34.21
you know, if we get married,
00:23:34.24\00:23:35.58
if you're a
homosexual, then get married.
00:23:35.61\00:23:38.45
You know, we're
saying that then.
00:23:38.48\00:23:40.48
And my thing is that
we need to really look
00:23:40.52\00:23:42.58
at the Word of God
00:23:42.62\00:23:43.95
'cause we love to twist
principles into doctrines.
00:23:43.99\00:23:48.02
You know, there's
a lot of principles
00:23:48.06\00:23:49.69
in the Word of
God that are for us
00:23:49.72\00:23:51.76
to physically help
us because physically,
00:23:51.79\00:23:55.50
you know, for
example, the health message,
00:23:55.53\00:23:57.30
you know,
promiscuous, all these things
00:23:57.33\00:23:59.57
if you really look at
the consequences behind it,
00:23:59.60\00:24:03.20
results in detriment
to damages to your body,
00:24:03.24\00:24:06.11
to your health not
just spiritual but physical,
00:24:06.14\00:24:08.28
you know.
00:24:08.31\00:24:09.64
That's one of the reasons why,
00:24:09.68\00:24:11.25
you know, God
condemns homosexuality.
00:24:11.28\00:24:15.38
It goes against
not just spiritual
00:24:15.42\00:24:18.75
but it goes against
your physical nature,
00:24:18.79\00:24:20.82
the way your body is built.
00:24:20.86\00:24:22.46
That's a good point to
make, you know, a lot of times
00:24:22.49\00:24:24.16
people use the
arguments of the Old Testament,
00:24:24.19\00:24:26.49
"Laws are done away with.
00:24:26.53\00:24:27.86
These are things that God wrote
specifically towards the Jews."
00:24:27.90\00:24:31.27
But every single
one of those laws
00:24:31.30\00:24:32.63
no matter what they are
00:24:32.67\00:24:34.00
whether it's cutting
of your beard or if it's,
00:24:34.04\00:24:35.60
you know,
wearing certain clothing,
00:24:35.64\00:24:36.97
they all had a
specific God brought them,
00:24:37.01\00:24:39.57
and said them
for a specific reason
00:24:39.61\00:24:41.38
and a principle that
He was trying to bring out
00:24:41.41\00:24:42.74
that is still
applicable today, you know.
00:24:42.78\00:24:44.38
I mean, you know,
the health message,
00:24:44.41\00:24:46.28
you know, it's
still applicable today.
00:24:46.31\00:24:47.82
I mean, there are
things that He wrote
00:24:47.85\00:24:49.32
that were for your good he says,
00:24:49.35\00:24:51.35
you know, these are
things I'm writing to you
00:24:51.39\00:24:52.72
that you may live and not die.
00:24:52.75\00:24:55.22
And so, you know,
that's a good point
00:24:55.26\00:24:56.59
to bring out.
00:24:56.62\00:24:57.96
Let's go to...
00:24:57.99\00:24:59.33
Korey, really got up ready,
00:24:59.36\00:25:00.70
this is a hot
discussion, go ahead.
00:25:00.73\00:25:02.06
I think that where the
church falls short is that
00:25:02.10\00:25:04.20
we really don't understand sin
00:25:04.23\00:25:06.13
and we really don't
understand the grace of God.
00:25:06.17\00:25:08.00
We really don't.
00:25:08.04\00:25:09.37
And I think the problem,
the reason why we have an issue
00:25:09.40\00:25:11.51
dealing with the
homosexual community
00:25:11.54\00:25:13.48
because we don't
understand the grace
00:25:13.51\00:25:15.04
that God has given us.
00:25:15.08\00:25:16.58
You know, some of
us are so busy working
00:25:16.61\00:25:18.68
so hard for our own salvation
00:25:18.71\00:25:21.05
even though God has already said
00:25:21.08\00:25:22.42
I've set you free,
00:25:22.45\00:25:23.79
that when someone else comes
with a more egregious sins,
00:25:23.82\00:25:26.72
you know, we are
like "Well, we don't know
00:25:26.76\00:25:28.49
if, you know, 'cause
listen it's a struggle for me.
00:25:28.52\00:25:31.39
And I'm, you know, every
day I'm fighting just a lie.
00:25:31.43\00:25:33.70
You know, I don't know
how you're going to fight
00:25:33.73\00:25:35.06
this homosexual
thing, you know."
00:25:35.10\00:25:36.80
And then we also
treat the grace of God
00:25:36.83\00:25:39.83
as something
that needs to happen
00:25:39.87\00:25:41.67
before you come to God.
00:25:41.70\00:25:43.17
You know, as if
we need you to erase
00:25:43.20\00:25:45.01
your whole sexual orientation
before you come to God,
00:25:45.04\00:25:47.78
you know, as a
pastor, these things,
00:25:47.81\00:25:49.14
I still struggle with.
00:25:49.18\00:25:50.55
You know, not that
I give myself over to,
00:25:50.58\00:25:52.18
but I acknowledge it, and I say,
00:25:52.21\00:25:53.55
"God, I need you
to do a work in me."
00:25:53.58\00:25:55.88
You know, we will present
the gospel in a way that says
00:25:55.92\00:25:57.89
listen God does not...
00:25:57.92\00:25:59.25
He don't want you
to change to come,
00:25:59.29\00:26:00.92
He's telling you if
you come, you will change.
00:26:00.96\00:26:03.26
Amen. Powerful. Brittany?
00:26:03.29\00:26:04.66
And I would say the
beautiful thing about the Bible
00:26:04.69\00:26:06.29
is from Genesis to
Revelation, it's very universal.
00:26:06.33\00:26:09.73
As in whatever it
says, even if they tear apart
00:26:09.76\00:26:13.20
every homosexual text,
the other passages that say,
00:26:13.23\00:26:17.17
"Okay, they're always
talking about male and female.
00:26:17.21\00:26:19.41
You never see an
occurrence of male and male
00:26:19.44\00:26:21.51
or female and female."
00:26:21.54\00:26:22.88
It's very universal
in aspect and as they can
00:26:22.91\00:26:24.68
as you were
saying, "Come to me."
00:26:24.71\00:26:27.08
Jesus God has
always said come to me.
00:26:27.12\00:26:30.85
But yet, every single time
we're trying to tell people,
00:26:30.89\00:26:33.19
"No, you need
to go and do this."
00:26:33.22\00:26:34.86
In one
situation that told a guy,
00:26:34.89\00:26:36.66
"Well, if you
change your clothes
00:26:36.69\00:26:38.03
and you dress more like a man
00:26:38.06\00:26:39.49
then maybe you would not
have homosexual feelings."
00:26:39.53\00:26:42.26
No, it's not about
changing who you are.
00:26:42.30\00:26:44.63
It's about going to God build
a relationship with Him first,
00:26:44.67\00:26:48.60
we need to allow
this entire community
00:26:48.64\00:26:50.94
to go to God primarily
00:26:50.97\00:26:53.44
instead of trying to
tell them what we feel
00:26:53.48\00:26:55.44
'cause we don't fully understand
00:26:55.48\00:26:56.81
exactly what
everything involves.
00:26:56.85\00:26:58.95
Right.
00:26:58.98\00:27:00.32
You know, in the Bible it says,
"As it was in the days of Noah
00:27:00.35\00:27:04.09
so shall it be before the
coming of the Son of Man."
00:27:04.12\00:27:08.02
And Noah had a
message, Jesus is coming.
00:27:08.06\00:27:14.36
We have a
message, Jesus is coming.
00:27:14.40\00:27:17.50
He preached that
message with enthusiasm.
00:27:17.53\00:27:20.84
He preached it with fervency,
he preached it with love.
00:27:20.87\00:27:24.57
And God gave the
people a chance to come.
00:27:24.61\00:27:27.81
And that's what we
need to do. All right.
00:27:27.84\00:27:30.55
Well, we have to end
it there unfortunately.
00:27:30.58\00:27:32.18
This is a hard discussion
we didn't even get into
00:27:32.21\00:27:34.82
all we want to talk
about, there's so much more
00:27:34.85\00:27:36.85
but hopefully,
there's some things
00:27:36.89\00:27:38.22
you can discuss and
your own youth groups
00:27:38.25\00:27:40.29
and talk about with
your family, your friends
00:27:40.32\00:27:42.22
because we really
need to discuss this
00:27:42.26\00:27:44.23
and be truly loving to
every single community.
00:27:44.26\00:27:47.23
So I thank you all
for the discussion,
00:27:47.26\00:27:48.60
it's very good,
very educational as well.
00:27:48.63\00:27:52.57
Thank you for tuning in.
00:27:52.60\00:27:54.54
But remember at
the end of the day
00:27:54.57\00:27:56.07
to always make pure choices.
00:27:56.10\00:27:58.07
God bless you, until next time.
00:27:58.11\00:28:00.58