The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Hello, and
welcome to Pure Choices.
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I'm your host
Pastor Joshua Nelson.
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So glad that you
decided join us once again.
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And again, this is
going to be a great one.
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We're talking about the
subject of Coming out at Church.
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I'm going to explain that,
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but let's first pause
for a moment of prayer.
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Heavenly Father, God we
ask your Spirit would guide us
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through this conversation
in Jesus' name we pray, amen.
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All right, let's
introduce our panel.
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To my left I
have Kimberly Douglas.
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So glad to have you here.
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And over here to my right,
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I have her husband
Pastor K.P. Douglas.
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So glad you all are here.
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Next to him I have
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Miss Brittany
Hill-Morales so glad she's here.
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Everybody got married,
you got to forgive me, okay.
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And next to her, I
have Xavier Morales,
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I'm so glad you all are here
two married couples once again.
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And of course,
I'm Pastor Nelson,
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my wife is Kimberly.
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And we are here to
discuss this important topic
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of Coming out of Church.
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Now, when I say that, I want
to make sure I explain this.
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I'm talking about creating
an environment where it is okay,
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and it's safe for
people to come out and say
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what they are struggling with.
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What sins they are
struggling with, not to say,
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that they are
coming out and saying,
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"This is what I
am deal with it."
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But they come out and say,
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this is what I'm having a tough,
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tough time dealing with
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that I've been
tempted with these things
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and I need some help.
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How can we make
the church truly become
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the sanctuary
that is supposed to be.
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We think about a sanctuary.
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You know, sanctuary for
birds or sanctuary for anything
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is a place where,
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where individuals
can come to feel safe,
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and be able to share exactly
where their problems are,
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and they receive help to
have those problems resolved.
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And oftentimes, why
we haven't discussed this
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is because at church
many time is the place
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where you just keep
quiet about your things,
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and you act like
things are going well.
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You act like, everything is fine
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and there's no issues.
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But we're trying to now figure
out a way to create a culture
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that it's okay to say
what you're struggling with.
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So, I'll start
with Pastor Douglas.
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Well, I think, I think you even
kind of alluded to it just now,
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in your, in your question.
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We're not talking
about methodology.
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We're not talking about our
practices, programs because,
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immediately
people will, you know,
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think of a A.Y
program we can do you know,
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the powwow the lock in.
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But what you're talking
about is organizational change.
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You're talking about change
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from the top down
and the bottom up.
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And for me organizational
change begins with education.
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It begins with, you know
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teaching people that
there is a problem first of all,
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or even if it's not
necessarily a problem,
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but showing people,
well, I guess it is a problem.
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Showing people what exactly
is hindering the organization
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from either being
relevant or moving forward.
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You know, so
first of all if you--
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especially if you're
leader, you need to educate.
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You can't just come
into a church and say,
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"We need to do is
accept everybody",
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because some
people just fundamentally
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do not believe that.
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You know, especially,
because a lot of people
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have come into the church
on a works oriented, you know,
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with the work oriented package.
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You know, they,
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they kind of don't
look at church as a place,
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where you're supposed to
be able to make mistakes.
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It's the place
where this is why I prove
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that there has been a change.
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I think we have to
realize that as we are talking,
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we're talking about change.
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Creating this
culture, it's going to be
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a huge change for our church.
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And some people are not
going to be on board with it.
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They are going
to be really upset,
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frustrated to the point that
they may even end up leaving.
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And that's the reality that
we're going to have to consider
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and think about as
we discuss about this.
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Yeah, that's a
really good point you know,
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something we have to think
about in terms of structurally,
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and you know, changing
the environment at church.
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There are some people
who want to come to church
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just to feel safe, and to feel
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that I want to
talk about any issues,
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maybe that's
why they came there.
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And when you do
discuss these, things,
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it makes them
feel very uncomfortable
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because they're not used to
expressing how they truly feel,
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or their
struggles are going through.
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So, yeah, we may have
to, there may be some people
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who just won't be
able to handle this.
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You know, but something
we have to ask ourselves
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if we really want
to create this openness
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are we okay with the doing.
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I think it's
unfortunate, you know,
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some people will be lost.
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You don't want
them to leave. Right.
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But the truth
about change is that,
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there's always that risk factor.
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You know, when God
decided to change our path
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and give us salvation,
He knew that, you know,
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the risk is not
everybody will accept salvation.
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I think we have a responsibility
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as a church though
to do what is right.
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And I think oftentimes,
we're motivated by security.
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You know, will the
highest tithe payer leave.
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You know, what I'm saying.
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Will those in
positions who we know
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keep the day to day ins
and out of the church going,
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would they leave.
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But I think that if
you really trust God,
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that the change can
actually benefit you,
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especially if you know you
do, what you're doing is right.
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You know then God will give
you the real fruit in the end.
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In my experience,
some people have left.
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And other people
have taken their places,
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other people stepped up,
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and things have
actually gotten better.
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Okay.
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Can we talk a little more about
what this openness looks like?
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What's an ideal?
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How would it
look like in a church?
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Want to tackle that
Hill-Morales and Xavier.
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I think that one, one
aspect of the openness is.
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It's like a family atmosphere.
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And in families, you
don't always get along.
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But at the end of the day,
you work through your issues.
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And I think
that, that is something
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that we should work towards
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within our churches
where you know what?
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Sometimes no, we
might not see eye to eye.
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But if I come to
you with an issue,
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I know that at
the end of the day,
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we're going to work through.
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And you're going to help
me, I'm going to help you.
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And we'll all, you
know, we would all have grown
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as a result of the encounter.
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And I think too often
we treat church, you know,
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when it comes to
that openness factor.
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We were too exclusive at
times, so there's a fear.
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You know, we treat
it like a Club Med.
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You have to have a
membership to get in, you know,
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and I think that that
mentality has more done
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more to our
detriment than our benefit.
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You know, realizing
that, you know, when you,
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when you're sick, you know,
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we often attribute
hospital to church.
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You know, you're sick,
you go there to get healthy.
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You know, I think a
lot of times we just we,
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we want to discard
people or even worship.
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We feel that is
somebody is worse than us,
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we want to put them in isolation
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or a cancer ward.
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You know with or
a hospice because,
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they're just worse than we are.
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And I think creating that
openness is realizing that
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we're just as
broken as anybody else.
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And I think that,
that takes a lot of prayer,
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and a lot of guts to,
to come to that realization
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in order to come together,
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and be able to deal
with each other's brokenness.
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Sure.
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Yeah, I totally agree with that.
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You know, I think that
some things that you know,
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helped me to kind of hope,
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help promote the
openness in my church
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has been just
trying to preach about it,
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you know as a pastor.
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You know, challenging pastors
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actually begin
to talk about this,
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Sabbath school,
you need to discuss it
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don't shy away from it.
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Even AYS you know,
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programs to be able to
talk about the subject of sex
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or even just sin
in general you know,
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how we're
struggling with these things.
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Have breakout groups you
know, small groups in the church
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that meet regularly
at houses and stuff.
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Bible studies that
touch on the subject of sin.
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Well, other
times you want to talk
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about the doctrines and stuff.
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We don't, don't want to
talk about the root issue.
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How it can really
live up to these things.
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And what it's taking my real,
real everyday life, you know.
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And also as leaders, you
know, a lot of us are leaders.
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And those who are
viewing who are leaders,
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we have to be
brave enough to go,
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come out and say ourselves.
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What we have trouble
with, and even sometimes
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what we're struggling with.
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Because even on this program,
we've been very vulnerable,
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I know I have, you
know in sharing some things,
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that you know, maybe I wouldn't
be comfortable sharing before.
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But I recognize
that no one is perfect,
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and everyone is struggling.
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And so to think that
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nobody else is going to be
going through it only I did
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is pretty arrogant
of me and naive and so,
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why not discuss it so
that exposes the devil
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and exposes his tricks.
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And we can kind of discuss
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how to get over
these things together.
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Now, the fear in
that is when I do express
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what I'm doing
and what I'm saying.
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I know for me, I've always
felt this way of, you know,
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even as I say this, I'm like
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kind of scared
about preaching and saying
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what I've done,
where God's taken me from
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is because people
will look at you and say,
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"Oh man, you know, look
what you did, you know."
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And that's
always the fear, right?
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If I share what
I'm going through,
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maybe it's too much.
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And you know, the young,
the older people I'm sorry
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in our churches have
a responsibility as well
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to the younger ones.
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If you have been
through something,
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you have experienced, you know,
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you can teach from that
experience and that lesson.
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So, and that goes
back to the family aspect
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that I was talking about,
you know, here a while ago.
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Yeah, I think it's, I'm glad
you brought that up because,
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it seems like
there's always something
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that they have
forgotten you know.
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That they did.
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Yeah, I mean, you know,
you were back there too.
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And, come on, you
should be the main ones
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to lead out in this discussion
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about what not to do
and how to get through.
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I think it also has to do a
lot with, with being balanced.
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You know, I think a lot of guys
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share their past for facts sake.
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You know, they
want to preach a sermon,
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a kind of wow for everybody,
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it will get them on
the edge of their seat,
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so they come over.
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But, you know, I
struggled with XYZ.
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But then that's
kind of all they share.
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You know, the thing
about organizational change
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is not just to educate people
on what the change should be,
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but also to share the
vision of where to go,
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go to now that
you have, you know,
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or try to make the change.
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So, it's not just
about what's our issue,
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what's our problem,
let's be vulnerable.
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But now let's, you know,
talk about where we can go.
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You know, so I don't want
to just tell you my faults.
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I also want to
share the vision I have.
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We talk about, you
know, changing the culture.
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You can't just come
in and change it and say,
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this is what we want to do.
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You know, what
I do is, you know,
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start with my leaders,
and kind of infuse what I'm--
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You know, while
I'm teaching with them.
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So about a time it
becomes just the whole church.
00:10:28.39\00:10:30.63
The key people
in my congregation
00:10:30.66\00:10:32.43
who have influence
00:10:32.46\00:10:33.80
are also on board
with the change that that,
00:10:33.83\00:10:35.86
that we need to
make in the church so.
00:10:35.90\00:10:37.50
Yeah, yeah that's important.
00:10:37.53\00:10:39.10
I want to kind of add
on to what Kim and both,
00:10:39.13\00:10:41.17
and Kory is saying.
00:10:41.20\00:10:42.57
When it comes to openness,
there also needs to be honesty.
00:10:42.60\00:10:46.51
And honesty is
being able to say,
00:10:46.54\00:10:49.21
"I don't know fully of
what you're going through.
00:10:49.24\00:10:52.58
I don't really have
a clear cut answer."
00:10:52.61\00:10:55.65
We do more harm
when we try to give these
00:10:55.68\00:10:59.19
half baked answers or well,
00:10:59.22\00:11:00.89
just do this and
you'll be better or just that.
00:11:00.92\00:11:03.49
But with that
honesty, I'd also add
00:11:03.53\00:11:05.36
that you need to
be willing to go along
00:11:05.39\00:11:09.13
on that journey with the person.
00:11:09.16\00:11:10.83
Find out what can be done.
00:11:10.87\00:11:12.73
Don't just say, I'll
pray for you than walk away.
00:11:12.77\00:11:15.60
Never think about them,
00:11:15.64\00:11:16.97
never wonder
what's going to happen.
00:11:17.01\00:11:18.67
I should say, "Okay,
I've heard what you said,
00:11:18.71\00:11:20.18
I hear that you
have to struggle.
00:11:20.21\00:11:22.24
Let me see what I can do based
on what God is telling me to do
00:11:22.28\00:11:26.51
to help you, so that you won't
get stuck with this forever,
00:11:26.55\00:11:29.58
but you can start progressing."
00:11:29.62\00:11:31.85
Yeah, that's good.
00:11:31.89\00:11:33.22
I think to the word
vulnerability is very scary
00:11:33.25\00:11:37.09
for a lot of people you know.
00:11:37.13\00:11:38.46
Vulnerable means,
I'm letting down my God,
00:11:38.49\00:11:40.30
I'm letting people in.
00:11:40.33\00:11:42.03
And I think what
vulnerability is,
00:11:42.06\00:11:45.00
it's definitely a culture shock.
00:11:45.03\00:11:46.87
No matter what
culture you're in,
00:11:46.90\00:11:48.34
what environment you're
bringing it into but, you know,
00:11:48.37\00:11:50.97
creating that
environment of openness
00:11:51.01\00:11:54.41
requires a lot of work.
00:11:54.44\00:11:56.38
Requires people to be vulnerable
00:11:56.41\00:11:57.75
and I think the best
way is to lead by example.
00:11:57.78\00:12:00.72
You know, to lead by example
and create that environment
00:12:00.75\00:12:03.12
where you remove.
00:12:03.15\00:12:05.89
You remove the
judgmental side of things.
00:12:05.92\00:12:07.92
You know,
you're able to talk to,
00:12:07.96\00:12:10.26
you know talk to each other,
00:12:10.29\00:12:11.63
maybe not in as a
church as a whole,
00:12:11.66\00:12:13.13
maybe you start small
and work your way out.
00:12:13.16\00:12:15.56
But remove the
judgmental facet of, you know,
00:12:15.60\00:12:18.23
my sin is greater
than your sin or your sin.
00:12:18.27\00:12:20.70
You know, we look for comfort.
00:12:20.74\00:12:22.17
We really, where we are in a--
00:12:22.20\00:12:24.51
We have a epidemic
of denial you know.
00:12:24.54\00:12:26.57
We want to deny that
we went through this one.
00:12:26.61\00:12:28.91
And it's there's a lot
of trauma in the church
00:12:28.94\00:12:31.85
that a lot of people
refused to deal with.
00:12:31.88\00:12:33.58
It's that trauma
that's hindering us
00:12:33.62\00:12:35.18
from creating that
environment openness.
00:12:35.22\00:12:37.15
Yeah, it is, it does hinder
00:12:37.19\00:12:39.65
into the church
in a lot of ways,
00:12:39.69\00:12:41.02
because not only is this
what you should, you know,
00:12:41.06\00:12:43.32
bring out about sexual sins,
but just everything in general,
00:12:43.36\00:12:46.83
because a lot
of times, you know,
00:12:46.86\00:12:48.20
we always hear about
testimonies how you should,
00:12:48.23\00:12:50.73
you know, give a testimony.
00:12:50.77\00:12:52.10
You know, you
don't glorify the past.
00:12:52.13\00:12:53.60
You know, you can talk
what you did in the past
00:12:53.64\00:12:55.10
but you talk more about
what's going on in the present,
00:12:55.14\00:12:58.07
where you hope to
get to in the future.
00:12:58.11\00:12:59.47
A lot of times of course,
00:12:59.51\00:13:00.84
and we talk
about those people who,
00:13:00.88\00:13:02.21
they bring up the past so
much whatever the case may be.
00:13:02.24\00:13:04.31
I think that, yeah, you
still don't glorify the past.
00:13:04.35\00:13:07.62
But, please let's
talk a little more about
00:13:07.65\00:13:09.68
the practicality of the struggle
00:13:09.72\00:13:11.52
that you had to go through
00:13:11.55\00:13:12.89
to get to the present, you know.
00:13:12.92\00:13:14.26
Because a lot of
time you say, okay, I was,
00:13:14.29\00:13:15.76
I was there and now look
where I'm now, you know what.
00:13:15.79\00:13:17.83
Well, how did you
get there, you know.
00:13:17.86\00:13:19.79
And I think we,
we don't do enough
00:13:19.83\00:13:21.90
of really
discussing the house you know,
00:13:21.93\00:13:23.80
that it is tough you know,
00:13:23.83\00:13:25.17
and I'll say for me just
being practical right now.
00:13:25.20\00:13:27.57
You know, it is hard.
00:13:27.60\00:13:29.10
You know, it took me a lot
to get to where I'm at now.
00:13:29.14\00:13:32.34
And I've had like, I've
had to go to counselors,
00:13:32.37\00:13:34.58
I've had to go to, to you
know to meetings or whatnot.
00:13:34.61\00:13:38.25
You know, I've had
to talk to my parents.
00:13:38.28\00:13:40.98
I've had to a lot
of different things
00:13:41.02\00:13:42.58
in order to really
get to the place I am now.
00:13:42.62\00:13:44.69
I had to pray a lot, fast a lot,
00:13:44.72\00:13:46.49
you know, struggle.
00:13:46.52\00:13:48.16
You know tears and all
these things that took.
00:13:48.19\00:13:50.89
But a lot of those
things I had to do,
00:13:50.93\00:13:52.66
it took place
outside of the church.
00:13:52.69\00:13:55.70
You know, it
wasn't that I did not.
00:13:55.73\00:13:57.37
I did, I really didn't feel
safe enough to go to the church
00:13:57.40\00:14:00.20
and do those type of
things in the church.
00:14:00.24\00:14:02.00
Well, I think we got to be more
intentional about it as well.
00:14:02.04\00:14:05.21
You know, not just making change
00:14:05.24\00:14:06.57
but actually
implementing change.
00:14:06.61\00:14:08.08
You know, making a plan
00:14:08.11\00:14:09.44
and then sticking to
that plan saying listen.
00:14:09.48\00:14:11.68
We actually want to
focus on these things.
00:14:11.71\00:14:13.92
You know, what I'm
saying have program before.
00:14:13.95\00:14:15.78
You know, I know at my church,
00:14:15.82\00:14:17.19
we did a whole month
on just family issues.
00:14:17.22\00:14:19.55
You know, marriage,
relationship, dating,
00:14:19.59\00:14:21.12
sex and actually
you know, doing pure,
00:14:21.16\00:14:23.06
doing Pure Choices actually
helped a lot in that process.
00:14:23.09\00:14:26.53
But we made sure that we
addressed certain things,
00:14:26.56\00:14:29.53
like I preached the
whole sermon just homo-sex.
00:14:29.56\00:14:31.83
You know, and it kind
of creates that environment
00:14:31.87\00:14:33.87
that talking about sex
in church is okay, you know.
00:14:33.90\00:14:38.87
Yeah, that's good.
00:14:38.91\00:14:40.28
So how, how do you act
though if you have, you know,
00:14:40.31\00:14:44.01
being open about
what you're going through
00:14:44.05\00:14:45.68
and everybody
in the church knows
00:14:45.71\00:14:47.22
what you've gone
through, they know,
00:14:47.25\00:14:48.88
know the dark secrets, you know.
00:14:48.92\00:14:50.45
And not of course, you got
to be careful what you share
00:14:50.49\00:14:52.95
with anyone that you know.
00:14:52.99\00:14:55.59
You know, how, how
should you-- How should you act,
00:14:55.62\00:14:57.59
or how should you even treat
a person like that, you know,
00:14:57.63\00:15:00.30
in if they have divorce
what they would they have done.
00:15:00.33\00:15:03.73
You know, how should they act
and how we should treat them.
00:15:03.77\00:15:06.47
My church for example.
00:15:06.50\00:15:08.14
I'm very transparent with them.
00:15:08.17\00:15:10.21
And they know a
lot of things about me
00:15:10.24\00:15:11.67
that I've been through.
00:15:11.71\00:15:13.58
The members that I
work with, they embrace me.
00:15:13.61\00:15:16.01
We share our
brokenness together.
00:15:16.04\00:15:17.95
You know, we have
an understanding that,
00:15:17.98\00:15:19.55
you know, there's your
privacy and things like that.
00:15:19.58\00:15:22.42
But at the same time,
you know, I love where I'm at
00:15:22.45\00:15:25.35
because of that factor,
because you can be, you know,
00:15:25.39\00:15:29.32
you can be open
about who you are
00:15:29.36\00:15:30.99
and not only do they embrace you
00:15:31.03\00:15:32.63
but they pray with
you to bring that healing,
00:15:32.66\00:15:35.70
to help you, to nurture you.
00:15:35.73\00:15:37.40
And that's the
biggest fact, you know,
00:15:37.43\00:15:40.34
with this whole aspect of
they know your business or so,
00:15:40.37\00:15:44.21
you know, almost
all your business but,
00:15:44.24\00:15:45.91
are you creating this nurturing
environment for it, you know.
00:15:45.94\00:15:48.78
And that's the one thing
that I like about the church
00:15:48.81\00:15:50.85
that I'm at that they
nurture me into better health.
00:15:50.88\00:15:53.21
And that's beautiful, that's
00:15:53.25\00:15:54.62
how a church
really should be, right?
00:15:54.65\00:15:56.35
Be able to nurture and accept.
00:15:56.38\00:15:57.75
Do you want to
add something to that?
00:15:57.79\00:15:59.12
Sure, I think also
00:15:59.15\00:16:01.42
for those of us
who might be, you know,
00:16:01.46\00:16:03.66
in churches and see a
need if there is no group
00:16:03.69\00:16:09.13
or no support
system, you can start one.
00:16:09.16\00:16:13.77
I think one of the--
00:16:13.80\00:16:15.14
Kory was talking
about organizational change.
00:16:15.17\00:16:17.24
I know what I'm
thinking about the classroom
00:16:17.27\00:16:19.57
and changing the culture
of the classroom or school.
00:16:19.61\00:16:22.68
You have to realize that
00:16:22.71\00:16:24.05
everyone is not going
to be on board all at once.
00:16:24.08\00:16:27.22
Very often, you
have to sell the vision.
00:16:27.25\00:16:29.85
And for those who
buy into the vision,
00:16:29.88\00:16:31.69
you move forward
with those individuals.
00:16:31.72\00:16:34.32
So, for those of us
like I said who see a need
00:16:34.36\00:16:37.99
maybe going one on one
and speaking to people,
00:16:38.03\00:16:40.80
because the
other thing that makes
00:16:40.83\00:16:43.60
creating culture change
00:16:43.63\00:16:47.44
possible is
establishing relationships
00:16:47.47\00:16:50.97
and genuine relationships.
00:16:51.01\00:16:53.14
So that people feel
okay, like I can come to you,
00:16:53.17\00:16:56.21
and you're not just the pastor.
00:16:56.24\00:16:58.15
But I know that you have
my best interests at heart.
00:16:58.18\00:17:00.55
And I can come to you,
00:17:00.58\00:17:01.92
and it's not going to
go to sister such and such
00:17:01.95\00:17:04.29
or brother such and
such after we speak.
00:17:04.32\00:17:06.39
Yeah, you know, and that's also
00:17:06.42\00:17:07.92
with everyone
being open because,
00:17:07.96\00:17:09.76
hey, if it's just one
person saying all their stuff
00:17:09.79\00:17:12.43
to somebody in a
small group environment,
00:17:12.46\00:17:14.50
nobody else is
saying, it's kind of like,
00:17:14.53\00:17:15.93
oh, you know man.
00:17:15.96\00:17:17.67
You haven't
said anything either.
00:17:17.70\00:17:19.83
So, so now let's talk
a little bit about it--
00:17:19.87\00:17:22.70
Okay, Brittany, go ahead.
00:17:22.74\00:17:24.61
Okay, I was going to say based
on my experiences of talking
00:17:24.64\00:17:28.54
to Christian women who
have sexual addictions.
00:17:28.58\00:17:31.95
The issue of being open
in church is people hear
00:17:31.98\00:17:37.32
and they say okay,
but they don't know
00:17:37.35\00:17:40.26
how to move forward
as and then they said,
00:17:40.29\00:17:42.92
"Okay, I spoke to this person,
00:17:42.96\00:17:44.76
but I'm still struggling because
00:17:44.79\00:17:46.13
they don't check up on me.
00:17:46.16\00:17:47.50
They said, they would be
my accountability partner,
00:17:47.53\00:17:48.96
but they don't do it.
00:17:49.00\00:17:50.33
They said, they would
help us, but they don't do it."
00:17:50.37\00:17:52.87
So, we need to have that
sort of dedication of, okay,
00:17:52.90\00:17:57.31
we're talking
about this right now,
00:17:57.34\00:17:59.04
someone's
listening and they're saying,
00:17:59.07\00:18:00.41
"Okay, this sounds good."
00:18:00.44\00:18:01.91
But can you actually move
forward and actually do it.
00:18:01.94\00:18:05.45
Because it hurts
more to be vulnerable
00:18:05.48\00:18:08.28
come out and say this.
00:18:08.32\00:18:09.98
And everybody knows
it but no one is helping.
00:18:10.02\00:18:12.59
Yeah, that's good.
00:18:12.62\00:18:14.12
And I think just
to piggyback on that.
00:18:14.16\00:18:16.26
There are you
know, there are people
00:18:16.29\00:18:18.43
going through some real issues.
00:18:18.46\00:18:20.46
And I think that as
leaders in our church,
00:18:20.50\00:18:23.06
if we find out
about or hear about
00:18:23.10\00:18:26.74
some of these
issues and we know that
00:18:26.77\00:18:28.57
we cannot handle them,
do not pretend you can.
00:18:28.60\00:18:31.97
There are trained professionals
who deal with these situations,
00:18:32.01\00:18:36.24
and
unfortunately in our culture,
00:18:36.28\00:18:38.38
it's not very
popular to go to therapy,
00:18:38.41\00:18:40.95
and it's not very
popular to seek help outside.
00:18:40.98\00:18:44.72
But if it is necessary I think
that if changes to come about,
00:18:44.75\00:18:48.52
those necessary
steps need to take place.
00:18:48.56\00:18:51.46
Here and you have to you know,
00:18:51.49\00:18:52.86
we're going to try to
go to next about loving.
00:18:52.89\00:18:54.66
Loving those who are
going through issues, you know.
00:18:54.70\00:18:57.37
Hating the sin
but loving the sinner.
00:18:57.40\00:18:59.87
I know that's kind of a phrase
00:18:59.90\00:19:01.24
that we throw
around a lot but...
00:19:01.27\00:19:02.60
You know, knowing
that I still love you
00:19:02.64\00:19:05.84
and if you are going
through something in the church,
00:19:05.87\00:19:08.81
remember the church
not just the building,
00:19:08.84\00:19:10.45
it's just not an
organization, a church or people
00:19:10.48\00:19:13.38
who are
struggling really together,
00:19:13.42\00:19:15.45
striving to be like Jesus.
00:19:15.48\00:19:16.82
And so, if you're
hurting, I'm hurting as well.
00:19:16.85\00:19:20.02
And so, if I'm
not checking on you,
00:19:20.06\00:19:22.12
maybe because I'm not
empathizing with your hurt.
00:19:22.16\00:19:24.29
I'm not feeling the same
pain which you're feeling.
00:19:24.33\00:19:26.06
And I'm just thinking
about what I'm going through.
00:19:26.09\00:19:27.73
There's so much of
that in the church,
00:19:27.76\00:19:29.10
so much selfishness of I'm
counter my life, my bubble,
00:19:29.13\00:19:32.00
my click, my circle.
00:19:32.03\00:19:33.44
And I'm not worried about
what's happening with you,
00:19:33.47\00:19:35.04
you know, but that has to stop.
00:19:35.07\00:19:36.71
That's not how I think Jesus
would want our churches to be.
00:19:36.74\00:19:39.67
Xavier in and then I'll pass it.
00:19:39.71\00:19:41.31
I think it takes a few steps.
00:19:41.34\00:19:42.68
Number one, you know,
the person has to acknowledge
00:19:42.71\00:19:44.68
that they want to change.
00:19:44.71\00:19:46.21
You can't, you
know, you can't change
00:19:46.25\00:19:47.58
whoever doesn't want to change.
00:19:47.62\00:19:48.95
You know, what I mean.
00:19:48.98\00:19:50.32
The other aspect
is understanding that
00:19:50.35\00:19:52.02
if they want to change this like
00:19:52.05\00:19:53.39
this is a sinful
behavior that I'm doing,
00:19:53.42\00:19:54.89
that I want to get rid of.
00:19:54.92\00:19:56.26
Understand that that
behavior does not make--
00:19:56.29\00:19:59.33
That's not who they are.
00:19:59.36\00:20:01.06
Thus who what they're choosing
to do but that's not who makes,
00:20:01.10\00:20:03.97
what makes them tick, that's
not who they are as a whole,
00:20:04.00\00:20:06.70
as a person character wise.
00:20:06.74\00:20:08.77
And that's where you know,
00:20:08.80\00:20:10.44
you remove and understand that
00:20:10.47\00:20:11.81
whatever they're trying
to get rid off, they really.
00:20:11.84\00:20:13.74
You need to help
them to work on that,
00:20:13.78\00:20:15.84
and still love them
because they haven't changed,
00:20:15.88\00:20:18.01
they're the same person then.
00:20:18.05\00:20:19.38
They got a good heart, they're
just struggling with something
00:20:19.41\00:20:21.42
that they want to get rid off.
00:20:21.45\00:20:22.78
Yeah, amen
00:20:22.82\00:20:24.15
I think the big issue
with coming out is acceptance.
00:20:24.19\00:20:27.42
And that's what
people want is acceptance
00:20:27.46\00:20:29.66
but I think that
we have a confused
00:20:29.69\00:20:32.19
definitions of
acceptance and especially
00:20:32.23\00:20:34.76
with the whole
homosexual conversation
00:20:34.80\00:20:37.73
'cause we do
sexual sin but, you know,
00:20:37.77\00:20:39.73
people don't come to church
or afraid to come to church
00:20:39.77\00:20:41.67
where they think
we won't be accepted.
00:20:41.70\00:20:43.74
Now, if you come to my
church, you're homosexual
00:20:43.77\00:20:45.34
I will accept you but I
will not condone what you do,
00:20:45.37\00:20:49.18
and that should
to be our, you know,
00:20:49.21\00:20:51.38
our philosophy
for sin in general.
00:20:51.41\00:20:53.62
God accepts you as you
are, God does not accept sin.
00:20:53.65\00:20:57.55
The reason he wants you to come
00:20:57.59\00:20:59.02
because he's
trying to remove sin.
00:20:59.05\00:21:00.59
You know, what I'm saying.
00:21:00.62\00:21:01.96
I love the Apostle Paul because
and I think maybe this is what
00:21:01.99\00:21:04.66
we got to do for
openness as well.
00:21:04.69\00:21:06.29
Just kind of jumped
to it, the Apostle Paul,
00:21:06.33\00:21:07.83
when he writes his litters,
00:21:07.86\00:21:09.20
he writes to
people who are messed up.
00:21:09.23\00:21:10.57
He usually writes
because they've written to him
00:21:10.60\00:21:12.90
telling him the problems.
00:21:12.93\00:21:14.34
You know, and he's able
in the same letter to say,
00:21:14.37\00:21:16.54
there's somebody in
here sleeping with his,
00:21:16.57\00:21:18.71
with his father's wife
00:21:18.74\00:21:20.88
and call out all the mess
and in the same book he says,
00:21:20.91\00:21:24.25
but you are saint of God,
00:21:24.28\00:21:26.28
you have been
baptized into Christ,
00:21:26.31\00:21:27.92
you have been raised
into newness of life with him.
00:21:27.95\00:21:30.42
So, he kind of, he
kind of calls out their sin
00:21:30.45\00:21:33.25
but he lets them know
that, even with those sins,
00:21:33.29\00:21:35.42
in Christ God still considers
you as long as you give it,
00:21:35.46\00:21:39.13
give it over to him.
00:21:39.16\00:21:40.50
And you know, give
it over may not say,
00:21:40.53\00:21:42.06
I'm gonna change today,
00:21:42.10\00:21:43.43
but as long as I allow
God to work out the process,
00:21:43.47\00:21:45.70
God considers you as saved
00:21:45.73\00:21:48.24
and raised a newness in on life.
00:21:48.27\00:21:50.04
And we have to have
that, that atmosphere,
00:21:50.07\00:21:52.21
we treat people that way.
00:21:52.24\00:21:53.58
Yeah, you know, that
person may be homosexual.
00:21:53.61\00:21:55.81
You know, they may
be struggling with it,
00:21:55.84\00:21:57.18
they may be trying to stop.
00:21:57.21\00:21:58.55
But I'm going to treat you as
if you've already overcome it.
00:21:58.58\00:22:00.32
Amen.
00:22:00.35\00:22:01.68
I love that, you know, and I
use this imagery of, you know,
00:22:01.72\00:22:03.52
Jesus is speaking us
up, His Grace is what,
00:22:03.55\00:22:06.09
is what covers us, protects
us from the condemnation
00:22:06.12\00:22:08.66
but it also is fixing us up.
00:22:08.69\00:22:10.03
And I use the imagery of,
you know, let's say Kimberly,
00:22:10.06\00:22:12.66
you're the sinner, you know,
00:22:12.69\00:22:14.73
and I can represent
Jesus in this illustration.
00:22:14.76\00:22:16.83
Of course, yes.
00:22:16.87\00:22:18.90
And let's say, you know,
00:22:18.93\00:22:20.27
the law is
condemning me from this side,
00:22:20.30\00:22:22.14
but when it looks at me.
00:22:22.17\00:22:23.71
It sees Jesus who's in the way,
00:22:23.74\00:22:26.17
but Jesus is not
just standing here,
00:22:26.21\00:22:27.54
facing the walls,
He's actually facing me
00:22:27.58\00:22:29.21
and fixing me up,
00:22:29.24\00:22:30.58
and working out my
sins out of me, you know,
00:22:30.61\00:22:33.78
and that's what, you know,
00:22:33.82\00:22:35.28
really it's all
about the cleansing,
00:22:35.32\00:22:36.65
not just forgiving of your sins
00:22:36.69\00:22:38.02
but the
cleansing of you, you know.
00:22:38.05\00:22:39.55
And so that's where
it really have to be
00:22:39.59\00:22:41.92
if we're the hands of
your Jesus in the church,
00:22:41.96\00:22:44.23
we are the clean.
00:22:44.26\00:22:46.33
What God is using to
clean up people in the church
00:22:46.36\00:22:50.27
and to get rid of the sin.
00:22:50.30\00:22:51.93
And, that's why I
love it, and you know,
00:22:51.97\00:22:53.30
that that has to
be our understanding.
00:22:53.34\00:22:56.17
We often like to think
about the pretty picture of
00:22:56.20\00:22:58.57
people are just
perfect people now.
00:22:58.61\00:23:00.91
But there will be people,
who will come to our church
00:23:00.94\00:23:05.11
and they want to know,
how can I deal with these,
00:23:05.15\00:23:07.95
these feelings I
have towards the same sex.
00:23:07.98\00:23:10.69
What do I do when I'm, you know,
00:23:10.72\00:23:12.65
constantly
looking at pornography
00:23:12.69\00:23:14.02
and I can't stop?
00:23:14.06\00:23:15.39
You know, what I do I'm
addicted to sex, you know?
00:23:15.42\00:23:16.96
These will be questions that
we have to know how to address.
00:23:16.99\00:23:19.56
You know, if I
could just real quick.
00:23:19.59\00:23:22.03
What I love about
Christ is His methods meant.
00:23:22.06\00:23:24.73
He is so different from ours.
00:23:24.77\00:23:26.77
When we think
about coming to Christ,
00:23:26.80\00:23:28.14
we really think
about coming for cleaning,
00:23:28.17\00:23:30.54
coming to be changed.
00:23:30.57\00:23:32.04
Imagine Jesus
calls His disciples
00:23:32.07\00:23:34.24
and not one time does
He address their faults.
00:23:34.28\00:23:36.95
He never from
the beginning says,
00:23:36.98\00:23:38.98
"I will make you fishers of men,
00:23:39.01\00:23:40.35
if you get rid of XYZ."
00:23:40.38\00:23:42.55
He says, "Come to me,
00:23:42.58\00:23:43.92
I will make you fishers of men."
00:23:43.95\00:23:45.32
And as they walk with
Him, slowly but surely,
00:23:45.35\00:23:48.26
He begins to pour into
them, what He knows is the best,
00:23:48.29\00:23:51.39
better thing to do.
00:23:51.43\00:23:52.76
You know, our
churches are so flat tire
00:23:52.79\00:23:55.23
because we don't take
that first step of saying,
00:23:55.26\00:23:57.50
listen just come and follow me.
00:23:57.53\00:23:59.00
You know, what I'm saying.
00:23:59.03\00:24:00.37
Even as Paul says,
"Follow me, as I follow Christ.
00:24:00.40\00:24:02.44
So, that I can speak
into you, I can show you
00:24:02.47\00:24:05.07
what fishers of men
actually looks like."
00:24:05.11\00:24:07.21
And the great news
that when Jesus dies,
00:24:07.24\00:24:08.94
and rises again, and leaves,
00:24:08.98\00:24:10.48
they are still not perfect,
they are still messed up,
00:24:10.51\00:24:13.18
and yet He still trust
00:24:13.21\00:24:14.78
the birth of a
brand new church to them.
00:24:14.82\00:24:16.99
You know, knowing that if
they just stays on the path,
00:24:17.02\00:24:19.89
that he will
eventually take out of them
00:24:19.92\00:24:21.52
the things that He needs to.
00:24:21.56\00:24:22.89
But only a person who is
safe, only a person who is safe
00:24:22.92\00:24:27.96
can make that claim.
00:24:28.00\00:24:30.03
Because you know what
you're capable of doing,
00:24:30.07\00:24:33.57
and you see where you
want to go which was you know,
00:24:33.60\00:24:37.14
the case with Christ.
00:24:37.17\00:24:38.51
So he could
say, "Just follow me,
00:24:38.54\00:24:40.94
and I will do the work."
00:24:40.98\00:24:43.04
Often times we
say, "Yes, follow me."
00:24:43.08\00:24:46.21
But then the people come,
00:24:46.25\00:24:49.25
and how do we treat
them when they come.
00:24:49.28\00:24:51.29
We think that's it.
00:24:51.32\00:24:52.65
Like you just stops
when... You know so.
00:24:52.69\00:24:54.92
And that's and I love
that you all are saying
00:24:54.96\00:24:56.62
because I always tell
people who are struggling
00:24:56.66\00:24:58.93
if they should
get baptized or not.
00:24:58.96\00:25:00.30
I say listen.
00:25:00.33\00:25:01.66
"You know, yeah, I know
you're not perfect right now,
00:25:01.70\00:25:03.20
but when do you take a bath.
00:25:03.23\00:25:05.43
You take a bath,
when you are clean
00:25:05.47\00:25:07.50
or take a bath when
your dirty, you know?"
00:25:07.54\00:25:09.40
You have to come to the water
00:25:09.44\00:25:10.81
when you know
that you're messed up.
00:25:10.84\00:25:12.44
That's when He wants you,
because when you accept Him,
00:25:12.47\00:25:15.44
He's gonna fix you up.
00:25:15.48\00:25:16.81
That's the power of
the spirit, you know.
00:25:16.85\00:25:18.21
And so, if our church
is really preaching this,
00:25:18.25\00:25:20.72
which is really
righteous by faith
00:25:20.75\00:25:22.28
that we truly believe this,
00:25:22.32\00:25:23.65
then we're going to
have an environment for say,
00:25:23.69\00:25:25.42
"Hey, you're here.
00:25:25.45\00:25:26.79
Let's begin the process
that Christ wants you to have."
00:25:26.82\00:25:30.29
And if we don't have an
environment open for that,
00:25:30.33\00:25:32.99
then it stunts the growth.
00:25:33.03\00:25:35.26
I think, well, I'm sorry but...
00:25:35.30\00:25:36.70
I was not gonna say perfection
has no need of a Savior,
00:25:36.73\00:25:40.47
so I think where we
fall short as a church,
00:25:40.50\00:25:43.71
and why we have such
a problem dealing with
00:25:43.74\00:25:46.31
that maybe the
more of egregious sense,
00:25:46.34\00:25:47.78
the homosexuality is because,
00:25:47.81\00:25:49.51
some of the people in church
00:25:49.54\00:25:50.88
aren't really sure of
their salvation either.
00:25:50.91\00:25:53.11
And it's hard to, it's hard
to pull people in who are sick.
00:25:53.15\00:25:57.02
You know, who are
dealing with things
00:25:57.05\00:25:58.39
you consider
worse in your things
00:25:58.42\00:25:59.99
if you don't have
the confidence of knowing
00:26:00.02\00:26:02.66
that you're safe
in Christ yourself.
00:26:02.69\00:26:05.13
I wanted to be able to talk
some about church discipline.
00:26:05.16\00:26:08.26
I don't think we have too
much time, maybe real quick.
00:26:08.30\00:26:09.93
How you all feel,
church discipline something
00:26:09.96\00:26:11.43
that we should still administer,
00:26:11.47\00:26:12.80
and how can we do it
00:26:12.83\00:26:14.17
if we're to print
this openness in church,
00:26:14.20\00:26:16.14
because people will need to
be disciplined at some time so.
00:26:16.17\00:26:19.57
Yeah, we need to
remember that church discipline
00:26:19.61\00:26:21.34
is supposed to be done in love.
00:26:21.38\00:26:23.95
And every time I've
seen church discipline,
00:26:23.98\00:26:25.61
it's just been okay, you're
now you're out of the church.
00:26:25.65\00:26:28.35
Yeah, great that's it.
00:26:28.38\00:26:30.79
If we're going to do it,
00:26:30.82\00:26:32.15
we need to be
able to communicate
00:26:32.19\00:26:33.52
with the person,
00:26:33.56\00:26:34.89
that is going to
be discipline and say,
00:26:34.92\00:26:36.26
this is what's happening,
this is why it's happening,
00:26:36.29\00:26:38.36
and move from there and say,
00:26:38.39\00:26:39.73
"We're going to
try to figure out
00:26:39.76\00:26:41.10
how to help you
get better versus
00:26:41.13\00:26:43.23
just saying
you're out of the church.
00:26:43.26\00:26:44.70
Good bye."
00:26:44.73\00:26:46.07
Yeah, there has to
be a plan to restore,
00:26:46.10\00:26:48.20
redeem the sinner, exactly.
00:26:48.24\00:26:50.77
Do you want to add something
that real quick for 30 seconds?
00:26:50.81\00:26:53.04
No, we did it on that.
00:26:53.07\00:26:54.41
I think, she might have said it.
00:26:54.44\00:26:55.78
I was going to say
though, it's just like you know,
00:26:55.81\00:26:57.78
whole point of
incarceration prison
00:26:57.81\00:27:00.32
is supposed to be to fix.
00:27:00.35\00:27:02.78
You know, and prison
messes up because it sends
00:27:02.82\00:27:04.85
prisons back out same mentality.
00:27:04.89\00:27:06.76
You know, we pull people in,
00:27:06.79\00:27:08.92
we're supposed
to reconcile them.
00:27:08.96\00:27:10.29
The whole point of it is reform.
00:27:10.33\00:27:12.39
The point is not to condemn.
00:27:12.43\00:27:14.43
It's, you know, in
just point out the flaws.
00:27:14.46\00:27:15.96
It's to point
you towards change.
00:27:16.00\00:27:17.47
Yeah.
00:27:17.50\00:27:18.83
Yeah, I like that, I
guess that's where we'll end it.
00:27:18.87\00:27:20.20
You know, we have to think
00:27:20.24\00:27:21.57
critically about this
thing as church members.
00:27:21.60\00:27:23.24
How can we
actually deal with those,
00:27:23.27\00:27:25.41
who are
struggling in the church?
00:27:25.44\00:27:26.88
Maybe, you know,
you're the one saying,
00:27:26.91\00:27:28.61
"I'm good, I'm perfect."
00:27:28.64\00:27:29.98
But I probably
dare you to think about
00:27:30.01\00:27:31.68
what you're
really struggling with.
00:27:31.71\00:27:33.05
There are some things that
you also have to work through
00:27:33.08\00:27:35.25
and there are
people in your church
00:27:35.28\00:27:36.79
that are struggling as well.
00:27:36.82\00:27:38.15
There has to be something
that we can do as a church,
00:27:38.19\00:27:41.02
as a people to create
this environment of openness.
00:27:41.06\00:27:44.13
So, please start that discussion
00:27:44.16\00:27:46.39
and always remember,
00:27:46.43\00:27:48.06
at the end of day
make pure choices.
00:27:48.10\00:27:49.90
God bless.
00:27:49.93\00:27:51.27
We had a good
time talking today.
00:27:51.30\00:27:52.63