The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents area
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Hello, and
welcome to Pure Choices.
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I'm Ron Woolsey.
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And again, we have
our guests and co-workers
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in coming out ministries,
our colleagues together,
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Mike Carducci and Wayne Blakely.
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And we're here to
discuss a subject today
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that again is a
little bit strange,
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maybe a little bit different.
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And it is the
subject of cross dressing.
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How does that line
up with God's thinking,
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His will, His word,
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how has that
affected our lives perhaps
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or the life of someone
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that is in the
viewing audience today.
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I found in the
Bible in the Words of God,
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some thinking that I'd
like to share with you.
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Deuteronomy 22:5,
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"The woman shall not wear that
which pertaineth unto a man,
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neither shall a man
put on a woman's garment:
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for all that do
so are abomination
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unto the Lord thy God."
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Evidently, God has a
pretty strong feelings
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about this practice
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and it goes back
up very long ways
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because this is
found in the books of Moses
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which was
thousands of years ago.
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In light of
God's statement there,
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I'd also like to share
this quote from Ellen White
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in the book Child
Guidance, page 427,
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and it is in harmony
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with what we just
read from the Word of God,
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"God designed that
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there should be
a plain distinction
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between the
dress of men and women,
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and has considered the
matter of sufficient importance
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to give explicit
directions in regard to it,
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for the same
dress worn by both sexes
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would cause confusion
and great increase of crime."
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That to me is an
amazing statement gentlemen
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because as we look
around the world today,
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it's seems to me
that this little lady knew
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what she was talking about.
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The crime that is
so abundant today,
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the disappearance
of the differences
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between the genders,
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it does seem like there
perhaps is a correlation.
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And we'll talk about that
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as we progress in
our dialogue today.
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But first, I
want to just ask you
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a personal
question, each of you,
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and that is have either have you
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ever been guilty of
this kind of behavior?
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You know, dress
up or dressing out
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or dressing down
or cross dressing?
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I will see a hand
on the front row here.
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Wayne, can you share with
us a little bit about that?
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Yeah, guilty is charged.
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I did from the time
I was three years old.
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I was putting on
anything that was looking like
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women's attire, scarves,
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anything at that age
I could get my hands on.
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And actually, I
progressed, you know.
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I was into,
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you know, this five,
six, seven, years old
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and even at the age of thirteen,
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I recall that I wanted
to go out for Halloween.
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In those days, we
didn't think of it is
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as being such as
the devils holiday
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as I would think of it today,
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but for frivolity, I
always wanted to be Cinderella.
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You can only
imagine when I said,
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trick or treat at peoples doors,
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they knew it was a trick indeed.
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And my brother was so
horribly embarrassed of me,
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I'm sure my
parents were as well.
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And then, even
into my adult's life,
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the drag queen stuff came
in and again I wish I had,
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well, you know, it
is probably a good thing
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I don't have pictures
because they would burn
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through the
television true value.
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Okay, we're going to make it...
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I didn't make a
very attractive woman.
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Oh, well, we're going
to get into the adult life
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a little bit here
later, but evidently,
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this was not a one
time incident, was it Wayne?
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What about you Mike, guilty?
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Absolutely, again I
had rejected masculinity
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and, you know, through
the example of my father,
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I reverted to my mother.
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And I thought that
God had made a mistake.
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I had three
sisters, no brothers.
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And so the only
influence that I had with girls,
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I like the things
that girls like to do.
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I like things that were
soft and pretty and colorful.
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And so, I would
sneak to you know,
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to try on my mom
slips or you know,
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to wear my sisters clothes
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because in some way,
it satisfied something.
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There was something
about it that I felt drawn to,
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and I couldn't help it.
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Right, Wayne? I
was moved towards it.
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It wasn't that I
was trying to be...
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to disobey my parents,
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so that you know, I
had this obsession with it.
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It just seem like
that was the right thing.
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Yeah, same kind or
natural... That's right.
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Anyway. And you know, what?
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That driving force came with me,
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I kept praying the
God would change me,
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and I would wakeup the
next day and I would be a girl.
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And even I know
that would never happen,
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it wasn't until
I was in early 20s
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where the desire to
be a women or to be girl
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had actually faded away,
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but that came from
going into the gay lifestyle
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and I
recognized that masculinity
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was much more
popular than femininity...
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Yeah.
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Because what I wanted
was the attention of men
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and the comfort of men
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and so then, it
totally changed...
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That's right, and I
started working out in the gym,
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and I started realizing that
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masculinity sells
much better than femininity
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and all of that went away.
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Well, especially
in the gay world,
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it was always
confusing to me why...
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if you're looking for
a man, in the gay world,
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you would want to act
or dress or be like a women
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because that man is gay too
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and wouldn't he
be looking for a man.
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Sure. So that was
a confusion for me.
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I thoroughly understand
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what you're talking about there.
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It was when I
moved to San Francisco
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and had my first lover
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that he began to talk to me
about dressing more masculine,
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having the
appearance of a more masculine,
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more macho man, and
it made sense to me that
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because I had an
appreciation for masculinity
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that I would want to
dress that way to draw the same.
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Right.
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Let's go back for
a moment to childhood
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when you started
dressing this way.
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What do you think caused
you to want to dress this way?
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What was the fascination?
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I remember, Mike,
you just said something
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about being fascinated.
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What was the fascination?
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It just seem
natural, you know, I still,
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I love color and it just seem
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that that girl
things were much softer,
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they were prettier, you
know, they grab my attention
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and I rejected, you know,
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again the
masculinity for my dad.
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So my attention turned
you know, to the feminine
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and so anything that
was related to masculinity
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was out and the only
thing left was femininity.
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And Wayne, this is for you
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because we know
each other stories here.
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And I think this question
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would be very important for you.
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Did anything traumatic
happened to you as a child
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that might have
influenced you in this area
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to cause you to--
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Sure, yeah, absolutely.
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My birthmother had made it
very clear during her pregnancy
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that she didn't
want anything but a girl.
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When I was born, she had
shown immediate rejection of me
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as being a boy.
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And so, those thoughts
were really put up on me
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and I think that I was
already at an early age
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trying to satisfy the
desire to get the appreciation
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and affection of my mother
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by doing and becoming
things that were more feminine,
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much more like
being a little girl
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instead of being a little boy.
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What was the reaction of
your mother and those around you
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when they saw you
dressing this way?
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I know, didn't you say,
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your mother actually
dressed you that way herself
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and then, when you
started doing it yourself...
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Right.
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By your own choice,
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what kind of
reaction did you get?
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Well, I was
adopted out and taken away
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from my natural
mother by the time
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I was two years old.
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So my adopted
parents couldn't make sense
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out of what was happening...
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But your birthmother... Yes.
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Didn't she dress you...
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I mean, she dressed
you that way purposely.
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She broke my arm in two places
before I was two years old.
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I don't know that
she dressed me as a girl.
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She wanted me
desperately to be a girl.
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And so, therefore,
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I was only trying to
carry out her desires.
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I see, right.
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Okay, Mike, what about you?
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What kind of
reaction did you get
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when you dressed that away?
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Spanking is what I got.
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And a clear
distinction that, you know,
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that it was
wrong in our household
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and so, you know, when covert...
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for me, you know, I had to do it
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without my parents watching.
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I would engage my sisters
to do it with me, you know,
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we would play dress
up and things like that,
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play dolls but again, I
had to do it very carefully
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and, you know, I
had to sneak to do it.
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How long did
this behavior go on?
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For example, well,
I'm just asking what age
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do you recall a ceasing
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to find pleasure
in dressing this way?
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Well, to tell you truth I
think was the first Halloween
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that I dressed in drag,
after I had come out, you know,
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and we went
through the whole thing
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of the false
eyelashes and the dress
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and the hose and,
you know, the whole--
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And I remember thinking about
20 minutes after I had it on,
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I go, "All right,
I'm done with this."
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And what was
amazing is in gay culture,
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I thought that God
had made a mistake,
00:10:25.55\00:10:27.92
and so I thought that I was girl
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that I should have been a girl,
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and so that drew me
to dressing like one.
00:10:31.36\00:10:33.90
But the issue was much deeper.
00:10:33.93\00:10:35.76
It wasn't that I wanted
to wear women's clothing,
00:10:35.80\00:10:37.90
it's just that I wanted
to complete the identity
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that I was claiming inside.
00:10:40.80\00:10:42.60
And so, it was not until
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coming out into
the gay lifestyle
00:10:44.91\00:10:46.24
that I
recognized that masculinity
00:10:46.27\00:10:48.38
is what is desirable.
00:10:48.41\00:10:50.81
And so, what happened is
then I started going to the gym,
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I started, you know,
00:10:53.62\00:10:54.95
lifting weights
and exercising more.
00:10:54.98\00:10:57.85
Again, repackaging if you would
because the issue that I wanted
00:10:57.89\00:11:01.82
was I wanted to experience
masculinity from someone else,
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and I figured the
only way I could do it
00:11:06.19\00:11:08.06
was to imitate it.
00:11:08.10\00:11:09.46
I never accepted, I
never put inside masculinity,
00:11:09.50\00:11:13.13
I just put on a
cover of masculinity
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'cause I never felt like a man.
00:11:15.60\00:11:17.17
And so, even that was
just an exterior for me,
00:11:17.21\00:11:20.41
thinking that somebody else
00:11:20.44\00:11:21.78
had the
masculinity that I was seeking.
00:11:21.81\00:11:23.48
Right, okay.
00:11:23.51\00:11:24.91
And, Wayne, did this go on
00:11:24.95\00:11:26.61
for a longtime
in your life or...
00:11:26.65\00:11:28.58
You know, it had
periodic resurgences, you know.
00:11:28.62\00:11:33.09
I guess, I was fascinated,
and I didn't quiet understand.
00:11:33.12\00:11:36.59
I always thought that women had
so many more options than men.
00:11:36.62\00:11:40.26
Men either put on brown
pants green pants or black pants
00:11:40.30\00:11:44.27
or brown shirt or white shirt.
00:11:44.30\00:11:46.53
I mean, it was so boring.
00:11:46.57\00:11:48.07
And I remember looking at my mom
00:11:48.10\00:11:53.38
and seeing, you
know, the whole process,
00:11:53.41\00:11:55.94
you know, that they
would put on these nylons
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and things and then,
they would turn around
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and they would throw them away.
00:11:59.68\00:12:01.08
And I couldn't understand
00:12:01.12\00:12:02.45
why the guys
would keep their socks
00:12:02.48\00:12:04.39
and women would
throw theirs' away.
00:12:04.42\00:12:06.72
And so, one day,
I was so fascinated
00:12:06.76\00:12:09.72
by this whole
idea that I thought,
00:12:09.76\00:12:11.46
"Well, I'm going to
see what that's like."
00:12:11.49\00:12:13.29
And so I took these nylons,
this is before pantyhose,
00:12:13.33\00:12:16.46
and I took and I cut
them off like at the knee
00:12:16.50\00:12:20.57
that my mom had thrown away.
00:12:20.60\00:12:22.84
And I put them
on over my socks...
00:12:22.87\00:12:27.08
actually I know,
I didn't wear socks,
00:12:27.11\00:12:28.71
I put them on by themselves,
00:12:28.74\00:12:30.85
and I went to school,
I was in eighth grade.
00:12:30.88\00:12:32.91
And I remember, I
was sitting at my desk,
00:12:32.95\00:12:35.28
it was one of
those wrap around desks.
00:12:35.32\00:12:37.29
And I had a friend that
was sitting across from me,
00:12:37.32\00:12:40.19
Betty Malore who is still
an inspiration to me today.
00:12:40.22\00:12:43.93
And she left over my way,
00:12:43.96\00:12:46.19
and I looked at her
and I went like this.
00:12:46.23\00:12:48.80
And I showed to her
that I had these nylon socks.
00:12:48.83\00:12:51.60
And she immediately busted up,
00:12:51.63\00:12:54.50
and I
immediately felt horrifying.
00:12:54.54\00:12:57.47
And then she, you know,
shared with someone else
00:12:57.51\00:13:00.31
and there I was, I was stuck
I had shoes on that were tight
00:13:00.34\00:13:03.95
and I had these
nylons, and I wanted to sink
00:13:03.98\00:13:06.28
and to disappear into the floor.
00:13:06.31\00:13:08.85
Was that the last
time you really dressed up?
00:13:08.88\00:13:10.29
Oh, no.
00:13:10.32\00:13:11.65
Now, what age was it
would you say that you ceased?
00:13:11.69\00:13:15.46
You know, they had the ball,
you never went to the prom,
00:13:15.49\00:13:19.86
you never went to...
00:13:19.89\00:13:21.23
when I left out
in the gay culture
00:13:21.26\00:13:23.23
and so, even as
hideous as I looked as a woman,
00:13:23.26\00:13:26.47
I would still go through this
process of this application,
00:13:26.50\00:13:31.71
you know, of makeup and hair
00:13:31.74\00:13:35.04
and beautiful
dresses and things,
00:13:35.08\00:13:37.01
even though it was to
be... and I would do it even
00:13:37.05\00:13:39.18
with the full beard, you know,
00:13:39.21\00:13:41.48
it doesn't make
any sense whatsoever,
00:13:41.52\00:13:43.89
other than it brought
about hilarity and frivolity.
00:13:43.92\00:13:47.82
Do you know what...
I'm wondering...yes.
00:13:47.86\00:13:50.03
It's interesting
because, you know,
00:13:50.06\00:13:51.59
it hits a certain part of us
where our natural expectation
00:13:51.63\00:13:55.56
is to laugh at it,
but I think it's also
00:13:55.60\00:13:58.23
because of the
uncomfortableness of it.
00:13:58.27\00:14:00.44
You know, again in
gay culture, you know,
00:14:00.47\00:14:03.27
everybody just was dying to
dress and drag on Halloween.
00:14:03.30\00:14:06.71
It was like the one excuse
00:14:06.74\00:14:08.11
that you could actually indulge,
00:14:08.14\00:14:10.38
you know, that
part of you that seemed,
00:14:10.41\00:14:14.62
unacceptable or the part of
you that seemed never satisfied.
00:14:14.65\00:14:18.32
And it's interesting
00:14:18.35\00:14:19.69
because it
wasn't even until my 40s
00:14:19.72\00:14:21.56
that I really
started to understand that
00:14:21.59\00:14:23.83
that God had made me male,
00:14:23.86\00:14:25.36
that I could
actually say with full intent
00:14:25.39\00:14:27.73
that yes, that I was a man.
00:14:27.76\00:14:29.83
And I believe
that in gay culture
00:14:29.86\00:14:31.43
that's what we're seeing is this
00:14:31.47\00:14:33.17
constant affirmation that
you indeed are not the man
00:14:33.20\00:14:39.04
that you 're created to be
00:14:39.07\00:14:40.94
and that there is something
unsatisfied inside there.
00:14:40.98\00:14:44.11
Well, that brings
me to a question here.
00:14:44.15\00:14:46.18
Do you think that
there is any connection
00:14:46.21\00:14:48.48
between this dress up
00:14:48.52\00:14:50.59
and becoming overtly homosexual?
00:14:50.62\00:14:53.86
And so, Ron, personally,
what's amazing to me is that,
00:14:53.89\00:14:57.13
I thought that God had
made this mistake in my gender.
00:14:57.16\00:14:59.89
And what's happening now,
this is was back in the 60s,
00:14:59.93\00:15:03.77
that I didn't have any options.
00:15:03.80\00:15:05.27
And so, it wasn't until my
20s that all of that went away,
00:15:05.30\00:15:08.50
it wasn't a redemptive process,
00:15:08.54\00:15:10.17
it was almost like a
cycle that when I realized
00:15:10.21\00:15:13.04
in gay culture that masculinity
00:15:13.07\00:15:14.91
was more
preferred than femininity
00:15:14.94\00:15:17.58
then all of the ideas
of becoming woman that
00:15:17.61\00:15:20.25
to correct a
problem that was wrong.
00:15:20.28\00:15:22.02
I was comfortable being male
not that I saw myself as a man,
00:15:22.05\00:15:26.62
but I was
comfortable in my maleness.
00:15:26.65\00:15:28.42
And what's so
shocking to me now is that,
00:15:28.46\00:15:30.73
now there is
legislature in some areas
00:15:30.76\00:15:33.83
where little boys can
say at six or seven years old
00:15:33.86\00:15:37.23
that I'm a boy
trapped in a girls body,
00:15:37.27\00:15:39.67
and against the
mother's and father's wishes
00:15:39.70\00:15:43.74
the government can step in
and start putting the children
00:15:43.77\00:15:46.21
on hormone replacement
00:15:46.24\00:15:47.64
and by the time
they're 14 or 15 years old,
00:15:47.68\00:15:49.84
they can have a full sex change.
00:15:49.88\00:15:51.58
What so shocking to me is that,
00:15:51.61\00:15:53.45
that would have been me,
00:15:53.48\00:15:55.02
if there was anything
like that at that time,
00:15:55.05\00:15:57.15
I would have been desperate
to have that procedure done,
00:15:57.19\00:15:59.72
and I'm very
much happy that I have
00:15:59.75\00:16:02.12
all the parts that I have now.
00:16:02.16\00:16:03.73
It would have been
a huge trauma for me.
00:16:03.76\00:16:06.39
Okay, and so,
00:16:06.43\00:16:07.93
that leads to the
question about cross dressing,
00:16:07.96\00:16:10.57
is it peculiar to
the homosexual community
00:16:10.60\00:16:16.60
or is it something that crosses
over into something else?
00:16:16.64\00:16:19.64
Because, you
know, for years now,
00:16:19.67\00:16:21.64
we've had more and
more unisex fashions
00:16:21.68\00:16:24.65
and a big thing
now is androgyny.
00:16:24.68\00:16:27.88
Where is all of these going?
00:16:27.92\00:16:29.42
Why do we ever have this council
00:16:29.45\00:16:31.62
from thousands of
years ago not to go here?
00:16:31.65\00:16:35.89
You know, Ron, I
worked in psych unit
00:16:35.92\00:16:38.13
for over 10 years
in my 20s and 30s.
00:16:38.16\00:16:42.03
And what was amazing
to me is the amount of men
00:16:42.06\00:16:45.23
that were heterosexual
that had wives and children
00:16:45.27\00:16:49.00
and were not
deviance of society,
00:16:49.04\00:16:51.71
but they were actually strong
00:16:51.74\00:16:53.74
upstanding
citizens in the community,
00:16:53.78\00:16:55.84
and they were
struggling with cross dressing
00:16:55.88\00:16:57.65
or they had, you know,
indulged in cross dressing.
00:16:57.68\00:17:00.78
And so, it's not limited
to the homosexual community.
00:17:00.82\00:17:03.65
As a matter of fact, you know,
00:17:03.69\00:17:05.02
we know a case of man
who was cross dressing,
00:17:05.05\00:17:07.82
who was straight and married
00:17:07.86\00:17:09.49
and had a sex
change to be women.
00:17:09.52\00:17:11.43
And then, when the Lord
touched his heart again,
00:17:11.46\00:17:14.00
he had his sex
change back into a man.
00:17:14.03\00:17:16.50
So God is telling
us not to do this,
00:17:16.53\00:17:20.30
but there is another force
00:17:20.34\00:17:21.67
that is really
working to bring this about,
00:17:21.70\00:17:25.24
excuse me, as
Satan is definitely
00:17:25.27\00:17:27.98
working against
the purposes of God,
00:17:28.01\00:17:30.91
and there has to be a reason.
00:17:30.95\00:17:33.75
One of the issues
that was striking for me
00:17:33.78\00:17:36.75
just in the last couple of years
00:17:36.79\00:17:38.75
is recognizing when
God said in Genesis,
00:17:38.79\00:17:41.62
he said, "He made
the male and female.
00:17:41.66\00:17:44.59
And before the earth
was formed, I knew you,"
00:17:44.63\00:17:47.16
and I believe that, that
God knew what He was doing
00:17:47.20\00:17:49.90
now that I
understand His goodness,
00:17:49.93\00:17:51.40
now that I've
accepted, you know,
00:17:51.43\00:17:53.10
what the merit of what His
son has done for me on the cross
00:17:53.13\00:17:55.44
and God knows him more.
00:17:55.47\00:17:57.01
I realize that the
distinction is necessary
00:17:57.04\00:17:59.67
because if we
were all androgynous,
00:17:59.71\00:18:02.24
if there was no defining line,
the confusion of my gender,
00:18:02.28\00:18:06.18
the confusion of my identity
00:18:06.21\00:18:08.22
would have been
entirely scattered, I believe.
00:18:08.25\00:18:11.05
And so, I think
that that the enemy who
00:18:11.09\00:18:13.56
if you look at any
kind of satanic rituals
00:18:13.59\00:18:16.09
or satanic kind of worship,
00:18:16.12\00:18:19.23
they always represent
saying to be androgynous,
00:18:19.26\00:18:22.03
you know, male and female.
00:18:22.06\00:18:23.77
And I believe that what
he's doing is he's out to smear
00:18:23.80\00:18:27.77
the definition
of male and female
00:18:27.80\00:18:30.94
and the purpose of
having the two sexes.
00:18:30.97\00:18:33.41
You know, remember
the part where angels
00:18:33.44\00:18:35.84
were not
permitted to create life.
00:18:35.88\00:18:37.98
And what would make Satan
angrier than anything else
00:18:38.01\00:18:40.92
to want to be God
00:18:40.95\00:18:43.59
and yet what he did
is God gives that gift
00:18:43.62\00:18:46.45
of reproducing life
to men and to women,
00:18:46.49\00:18:49.59
so it seems it Satan is
going to want to disturb that
00:18:49.62\00:18:51.86
and rob that away
from anyone that he can.
00:18:51.89\00:18:53.73
Right.
00:18:53.76\00:18:55.10
So not only just homosexuality,
00:18:55.13\00:18:56.53
rob me away from the
right to create life.
00:18:56.56\00:18:58.93
I'm not talking about
adoption of that kind of thing,
00:18:58.97\00:19:01.24
but I'm talking about
the way God intended it to be
00:19:01.27\00:19:03.91
through intimacy, you
know, through, you know,
00:19:03.94\00:19:06.78
the sex between man and a
woman to create that life.
00:19:06.81\00:19:10.68
So in essence, homosexuality
actually brings to an end
00:19:10.71\00:19:15.12
6,000 years of seed procreation.
00:19:15.15\00:19:20.09
And if everyone, I
mean, the more people
00:19:20.12\00:19:23.12
that go that direction,
the less procreation there is.
00:19:23.16\00:19:27.13
Satan hates procreation.
00:19:27.16\00:19:30.80
We were talking earlier about
how angels were not created
00:19:30.83\00:19:34.74
as male and female.
00:19:34.77\00:19:36.71
And so from what you're saying,
00:19:36.74\00:19:39.67
it seems very
reasonable to think is Satan
00:19:39.71\00:19:43.48
in confusing the sexes
00:19:43.51\00:19:45.51
and bringing
about this androgyny
00:19:45.55\00:19:47.62
is trying to
create God's children
00:19:47.65\00:19:51.35
into his image, Satan's image.
00:19:51.39\00:19:53.76
He wants to bring
them down to where he is
00:19:53.79\00:19:57.03
where procreation stops
00:19:57.06\00:19:58.73
and they're more
and more like him.
00:19:58.76\00:20:00.10
Is that correct?
00:20:00.13\00:20:02.53
You know, I'm a hairdresser.
00:20:02.56\00:20:03.97
I don't know the
depth of theology
00:20:04.00\00:20:06.47
that you're going to run.
00:20:06.50\00:20:07.84
All I know is
that God's distinctive,
00:20:07.87\00:20:10.37
and He has the borders
00:20:10.41\00:20:12.24
and there is a
reason He created me male
00:20:12.27\00:20:14.54
and as I trust Him
more, as I follow Him
00:20:14.58\00:20:18.61
and I don't resist
where He's calling me,
00:20:18.65\00:20:22.35
I've been
experiencing my manhood more.
00:20:22.38\00:20:24.72
And I believe that every
child that cross dresses,
00:20:24.75\00:20:27.32
every adult out there
that's cross dressing,
00:20:27.36\00:20:29.46
I believe that they
have not acknowledged
00:20:29.49\00:20:32.66
the reason why God
has created them that way,
00:20:32.69\00:20:35.26
and if they're not in
touch with their identity,
00:20:35.30\00:20:37.50
if they're not in
touch with their gender,
00:20:37.53\00:20:41.37
then I believe
that what's happening is
00:20:41.40\00:20:43.00
they haven't
been affirmed by God.
00:20:43.04\00:20:45.44
There is something has
been taken away from them
00:20:45.47\00:20:47.31
environmentally
or through heredity,
00:20:47.34\00:20:50.18
but the God wants to
restore that in each one of us
00:20:50.21\00:20:52.85
because we're distinctive
and He doesn't make mistakes
00:20:52.88\00:20:56.15
and that we can trust Him.
00:20:56.18\00:20:57.92
Right, and Satan works
tirelessly to mar the image...
00:20:57.95\00:21:00.72
Absolutely. Of
God and his children.
00:21:00.76\00:21:05.26
I'm curious to what
brought you to the point, Wayne,
00:21:05.29\00:21:10.23
were you saw this was no longer
00:21:10.27\00:21:12.93
something you
wanted to be involved in,
00:21:12.97\00:21:16.00
was it at your
point of conversion
00:21:16.04\00:21:17.97
that you realized that
this was not to the glory of God
00:21:18.01\00:21:21.64
and it was not to your
own benefit and manhood?
00:21:21.68\00:21:25.15
Tell us about that.
00:21:25.18\00:21:26.51
Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:26.55\00:21:27.88
It was in conversion
and no longer partying
00:21:27.92\00:21:32.62
and trying to be somebody other
than God intended me to be,
00:21:32.65\00:21:35.99
but in my growing relationship,
00:21:36.02\00:21:38.13
my intimate
relationship with Jesus,
00:21:38.16\00:21:40.16
He's giving me the conformation
00:21:40.20\00:21:42.83
and the affirmation
of my maleness in Him,
00:21:42.86\00:21:46.80
and being a new
creature in Jesus Christ.
00:21:46.84\00:21:49.60
Again, with the 1
Corinthians 6:9 through 11,
00:21:49.64\00:21:53.44
I think there's
really something to it
00:21:53.48\00:21:55.04
where God is talking about
00:21:55.08\00:21:56.75
who won't enter into heaven
about homosexual offenders
00:21:56.78\00:22:00.72
and then, He even separately
states the effeminate.
00:22:00.75\00:22:04.45
And I think that that really
boils down to being someone
00:22:04.49\00:22:08.49
God didn't intend for you to be,
00:22:08.52\00:22:11.93
in other words
taking the majors of God
00:22:11.96\00:22:14.00
into your own hands
00:22:14.03\00:22:15.70
even if you feel that you
have inclinations in your life
00:22:15.73\00:22:20.34
that you feel
more female than male,
00:22:20.37\00:22:22.90
it's that God will help you
deal with that if you let Him,
00:22:22.94\00:22:26.71
and if you
commit yourself to Him
00:22:26.74\00:22:28.48
and you seek to do His
will instead of your own.
00:22:28.51\00:22:31.41
God can do amazing things,
but when we take the scalpel,
00:22:31.45\00:22:35.88
you know, into our own hands
00:22:35.92\00:22:37.35
and decide that
we're going to change
00:22:37.39\00:22:39.42
what God has given to us,
00:22:39.45\00:22:41.99
I think that borders on what
this verse is talking about.
00:22:42.02\00:22:45.86
Well, this brings us back
00:22:45.89\00:22:47.23
to the whole plan of
salvation, doesn't it?
00:22:47.26\00:22:49.00
And the plan of
salvation is about restoring,
00:22:49.03\00:22:52.03
restoration, reconciliation.
00:22:52.07\00:22:54.67
Absolutely.
00:22:54.70\00:22:56.04
God wants to restore
us to what He created us
00:22:56.07\00:22:58.37
to be in the first place.
00:22:58.41\00:23:00.04
And so it is a
process of transformation
00:23:00.08\00:23:04.15
because mankind has fallen.
00:23:04.18\00:23:05.95
In 6,000 years,
mankind in general
00:23:05.98\00:23:08.32
has fallen so far from God's
original plan and His ideal.
00:23:08.35\00:23:13.72
And it's exciting to see
how God works in our lives
00:23:13.76\00:23:17.23
to turn our around and
start building us back up
00:23:17.26\00:23:20.86
and restoring His image in us.
00:23:20.90\00:23:24.63
I'm wondering what
advice you would have for
00:23:24.67\00:23:28.70
anyone who is
seeking help in this area?
00:23:28.74\00:23:32.54
Wanting to overcome because
I know this is not an issue
00:23:32.57\00:23:36.51
that is limited
to homosexuality.
00:23:36.54\00:23:40.58
There are other facets of
society and other elements
00:23:40.62\00:23:44.75
and we probably can't even
go there, we don't understand,
00:23:44.79\00:23:48.26
but we do know that Biblically,
00:23:48.29\00:23:50.83
it's not something
God wants us to do.
00:23:50.86\00:23:52.96
So what kind of advice, Wayne,
00:23:52.99\00:23:55.13
what kind of advice would
you give someone who is seeking
00:23:55.16\00:23:57.47
help in this area?
00:23:57.50\00:23:59.30
Well, I guess I would first say
00:23:59.33\00:24:01.74
that it's a matter of surrender,
00:24:01.77\00:24:04.84
of turning yourself
over to your creator
00:24:04.87\00:24:08.54
and then, seeking His word
for the benefit of learning
00:24:08.58\00:24:13.88
who you are in Jesus
Christ and knowing that
00:24:13.92\00:24:17.59
you have been given a
particular gendered body,
00:24:17.62\00:24:21.46
and that you accept this body
00:24:21.49\00:24:23.89
way God gave it to you.
00:24:23.93\00:24:25.59
And because of our
sinful fallen nature,
00:24:25.63\00:24:27.86
there are things, there
are inclinations, temptations,
00:24:27.90\00:24:31.13
deceptions that are
put out there for us.
00:24:31.17\00:24:33.57
But to turn the focus from self,
00:24:33.60\00:24:36.37
and put the
focus on Jesus Christ
00:24:36.40\00:24:38.77
and let Him give you
the validation of the gender
00:24:38.81\00:24:42.74
that He created you to be.
00:24:42.78\00:24:44.58
That's very good.
00:24:44.61\00:24:46.05
And what about, Mike,
do you have any possibly
00:24:46.08\00:24:48.62
some scripture that
would relate to this,
00:24:48.65\00:24:50.65
this type of subject?
00:24:50.69\00:24:52.02
You know, a scripture
00:24:52.05\00:24:53.39
doesn't come to
my mind right now,
00:24:53.42\00:24:54.76
but what does come
is a plea for anyone
00:24:54.79\00:24:57.53
who may be even in the
throws of not understanding
00:24:57.56\00:25:01.90
their gender identity
00:25:01.93\00:25:03.43
who may not
understand why they're drawn
00:25:03.47\00:25:06.94
to wearing the
opposite sex clothing,
00:25:06.97\00:25:09.24
but what comes to my
mind is just to seek Jesus,
00:25:09.27\00:25:12.07
that you don't have
to worry about, you know,
00:25:12.11\00:25:14.88
the dress you're
wearing or the man's clothes
00:25:14.91\00:25:17.45
that a woman might be wearing.
00:25:17.48\00:25:18.81
I believe that if you're
seeking the Lord, He says,
00:25:18.85\00:25:22.38
"If you'll search
for me, you'll find me,"
00:25:22.42\00:25:24.49
and I believe that if
you just don't resist,
00:25:24.52\00:25:27.92
because the
surrender is tough to do
00:25:27.96\00:25:30.03
to someone you don't know
or someone you don't trust.
00:25:30.06\00:25:32.16
If didn't trust you Ron, I
would not surrender to you.
00:25:32.19\00:25:34.96
And so, some of you out
there may not know Jesus,
00:25:35.00\00:25:37.53
you may not know God
00:25:37.57\00:25:38.90
or what He has in store for you.
00:25:38.93\00:25:40.27
But if there is
something in your heart
00:25:40.30\00:25:41.90
that you feel is missing,
00:25:41.94\00:25:43.41
if you've been dressing
in the opposite sex clothing
00:25:43.44\00:25:46.01
and you're not
satisfied or you're not happy,
00:25:46.04\00:25:48.74
then just don't resist
the urging of what the Lord
00:25:48.78\00:25:51.68
may be calling you to do
00:25:51.71\00:25:53.28
and to ask Him to
dialogue with you.
00:25:53.31\00:25:55.98
Don't worry about
what you're wearing,
00:25:56.02\00:25:57.72
just start finding
out about who Jesus is,
00:25:57.75\00:26:00.36
and I believe
that He brings that
00:26:00.39\00:26:03.02
and He'll address that
and resolve that issue.
00:26:03.06\00:26:05.79
You know, from time to
time, I have people come to me
00:26:05.83\00:26:08.36
as a pastor and
seeking my council.
00:26:08.40\00:26:12.13
What about my son
who thinks he is a girl
00:26:12.17\00:26:15.17
and dresses like a girl?
00:26:15.20\00:26:17.14
What do I do?
00:26:17.17\00:26:18.54
And then, I meet the son,
00:26:18.57\00:26:19.91
and I see all
kinds of evidences that,
00:26:19.94\00:26:22.11
that's not really the issue.
00:26:22.14\00:26:23.71
They want me to
help them understand,
00:26:23.75\00:26:26.92
how to change this person.
00:26:26.95\00:26:29.32
And then, a text comes
to mind when I hear that,
00:26:29.35\00:26:35.12
"Seek ye first
the kingdom of God,
00:26:35.16\00:26:38.26
and His righteousness,
00:26:38.29\00:26:40.20
and all these things
shall be added unto you."
00:26:40.23\00:26:42.40
So often, we're trying to
pick the fruits off the tree,
00:26:42.43\00:26:45.00
the results of a
broken heart or sinful heart,
00:26:45.03\00:26:49.00
and we're not
focusing upon the root.
00:26:49.04\00:26:51.34
And the Bible simply says,
00:26:51.37\00:26:53.54
"Seek ye first
the kingdom of God,"
00:26:53.58\00:26:55.34
put things in their order.
00:26:55.38\00:26:57.15
Many things, like in our
own experience, we remember,
00:26:57.18\00:27:01.45
I think we could
concur that many things
00:27:01.48\00:27:04.35
just seem to fall away
from our habits in our lives
00:27:04.39\00:27:09.66
as we became closer
and closer to Jesus,
00:27:09.69\00:27:12.39
and so if we
focus upon Him first
00:27:12.43\00:27:14.63
like you're saying, the
first and great commandment
00:27:14.66\00:27:18.63
is to love God supremely
00:27:18.67\00:27:20.97
and then your
neighbor as yourself
00:27:21.00\00:27:22.64
which you're alluding to
here we put ourselves last.
00:27:22.67\00:27:25.31
And if we focus on
God first, His will,
00:27:25.34\00:27:29.04
His way by beholding Him,
we do become change, don't we?
00:27:29.08\00:27:33.38
And so, I think that's
kind of a conclusion here
00:27:33.42\00:27:36.18
that we're coming to
that if we put God first,
00:27:36.22\00:27:38.85
a lot of these things
will be easy to take care,
00:27:38.89\00:27:41.92
easier to take care of.
00:27:41.96\00:27:43.76
We want to thank you today
00:27:43.79\00:27:45.19
for joining us
today on Pure Choices
00:27:45.23\00:27:48.40
and again, may God
continue to bless you
00:27:48.43\00:27:51.17
as you make pure
choices in your life
00:27:51.20\00:27:53.64
each and every day.
00:27:53.67\00:27:55.00