The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
00:00:01.36\00:00:03.37
Parents are
cautioned that some material
00:00:03.40\00:00:05.23
may be too candid
for younger children.
00:00:05.27\00:00:07.70
Welcome to Pure Choices.
00:00:40.54\00:00:42.74
I'm Ron Woolsey
and with me today
00:00:42.77\00:00:44.54
are my friends and guests
Mike Carducci and Wayne Blakely
00:00:44.57\00:00:49.54
that are also with me
in Coming Out Ministries.
00:00:49.58\00:00:52.71
And we also have our
good friend Lance Williams
00:00:52.75\00:00:56.18
and a guest that will
be discussing with us today
00:00:56.22\00:00:59.85
this issue that generally meets
with little or no discussion.
00:00:59.89\00:01:05.56
The subject today is
kind about taboo issue
00:01:05.59\00:01:09.13
I would believe in,
00:01:09.16\00:01:10.50
one involved in shame
and remorse, a secret sin.
00:01:10.53\00:01:15.50
We're going to talk about
the issue of masturbation.
00:01:15.54\00:01:18.17
And it is very
difficult to even bring up
00:01:18.21\00:01:20.18
or talk about self
abuse and its negative effects
00:01:20.21\00:01:23.95
upon one's image, self image,
00:01:23.98\00:01:26.48
self worth and
the spiritual life.
00:01:26.51\00:01:30.72
We have some amazing
words f council on this subject
00:01:30.75\00:01:33.49
which I think must
surely be inspired.
00:01:33.52\00:01:37.03
One of my favorite
authors Ellen White from a book
00:01:37.06\00:01:40.20
called "Selected
Messages" page 286 in volume 3.
00:01:40.23\00:01:45.53
"The sinful practice
or self abuse in this age
00:01:45.57\00:01:48.70
is almost
universally practiced."
00:01:48.74\00:01:51.57
I found that to be startling.
00:01:51.61\00:01:53.38
And, of course, this is
written a long time ago.
00:01:53.41\00:01:56.14
But almost universally practiced
00:01:56.18\00:01:59.28
and this practice
weakens the physical, the mental
00:01:59.31\00:02:02.88
and moral
powers and bars the way
00:02:02.92\00:02:05.22
to everlasting life.
00:02:05.25\00:02:07.79
That is very sobering.
00:02:07.82\00:02:10.83
We read also in a
book "Child Guidance".
00:02:10.86\00:02:14.40
"The effect of
such debasing habits
00:02:14.43\00:02:16.90
leave some to a time suffer
keenly from feelings of remorse
00:02:16.93\00:02:21.24
and they feel
degraded in their own eyes
00:02:21.27\00:02:23.97
and to lose self respect."
00:02:24.01\00:02:26.88
And from the
same book, page 441.
00:02:26.91\00:02:32.01
It refers to the
exceeding sinfulness
00:02:32.05\00:02:34.88
of this degrading sin.
00:02:34.92\00:02:37.42
"Self abuse results
in weakening the mind
00:02:37.45\00:02:39.79
and dimming the
brilliancy of the intellect."
00:02:39.82\00:02:43.02
So with these thoughts
and these words of council
00:02:43.06\00:02:47.40
which I do feel
are very inspired.
00:02:47.43\00:02:50.57
We're going to
talk about this subject
00:02:50.60\00:02:53.37
and you know, Mike,
I want to commend you
00:02:53.40\00:02:56.97
because you so
boldly talk about this issue
00:02:57.01\00:02:59.77
but it's not something
you're comfortable with,
00:02:59.81\00:03:02.31
but you're
willing to take it on.
00:03:02.34\00:03:03.88
I give you much credit for that.
00:03:03.91\00:03:05.91
And your openness
and your transparency
00:03:08.92\00:03:11.32
is apparent that you
are selflessly burdened
00:03:11.35\00:03:13.66
to help others
overcome in this area
00:03:13.69\00:03:16.16
because there's a need.
00:03:16.19\00:03:17.79
In fact, you know, all of us,
00:03:17.83\00:03:19.33
we're here today
talking about the issues
00:03:19.36\00:03:21.26
that none of us
are comfortable with.
00:03:21.30\00:03:23.37
That's right. If
we think about our...
00:03:23.40\00:03:25.80
Well, if we selfishly
think about our reputations
00:03:25.83\00:03:29.80
and our image and so
forth, who wants to talk about
00:03:29.84\00:03:32.67
all of these
things from our past.
00:03:32.71\00:03:34.74
But we're here
sharing because we know that
00:03:34.78\00:03:37.11
our experiences are not unique.
00:03:37.15\00:03:41.98
There's a
prevalence in these areas.
00:03:42.02\00:03:43.79
And so I want to
thank all three of you today
00:03:43.82\00:03:46.62
for being here and being willing
00:03:46.65\00:03:49.12
to talk about this issue.
00:03:49.16\00:03:52.69
Mike, I know you
have openly stated that
00:03:52.73\00:03:55.06
his was something
that you struggled with in.
00:03:55.10\00:03:57.63
Can you share with us
00:03:57.67\00:03:59.77
at what age this
problem developed with you?
00:03:59.80\00:04:03.20
At what age did you
began practicing this issue?
00:04:03.24\00:04:07.41
You know, Ron,
it's a topic that I get
00:04:07.44\00:04:10.48
more and more
comfortable with as ugly
00:04:10.51\00:04:12.41
as it is to even bring up,
00:04:12.45\00:04:14.12
but when I have opportunity
to speak to young people,
00:04:14.15\00:04:16.65
when I speak in
academies and high schools
00:04:16.69\00:04:18.42
and even
elementary schools, you know,
00:04:18.45\00:04:20.56
talking to young
man and young woman
00:04:20.59\00:04:22.42
about the evils of
this pernicious habit
00:04:22.46\00:04:25.23
that took me over
for 30 some years.
00:04:25.26\00:04:27.66
You know, it's
incredible when I see
00:04:27.70\00:04:29.06
a young person come forward
in private and tell me that
00:04:29.10\00:04:31.77
they were praying
that God would send someone
00:04:31.80\00:04:33.23
they could talk to,
that they were struggling
00:04:33.27\00:04:35.20
with the
addiction of masturbation.
00:04:35.24\00:04:36.94
I don't mind
saying that ugly word,
00:04:36.97\00:04:38.54
I don't mind telling my
story over and over again
00:04:38.57\00:04:40.98
because if I can help somebody
stop the addictive cycle
00:04:41.01\00:04:44.51
at an early age and
spare them what I went through,
00:04:44.55\00:04:47.12
I don't mind
being the spokesperson
00:04:47.15\00:04:49.02
for that ugly thing.
00:04:49.05\00:04:50.39
And that's what
so important about
00:04:50.42\00:04:51.75
what we're all
trying to do here.
00:04:51.79\00:04:53.29
As we see people
respond, it emboldens us
00:04:53.32\00:04:57.03
to even be more
open with these issues
00:04:57.06\00:05:00.96
and I appreciate that.
00:05:01.00\00:05:02.33
Sure. For me it
was 13 years old.
00:05:02.36\00:05:04.77
I was a late
bloomer, and I was raised
00:05:04.80\00:05:07.70
by single mom and three sisters.
00:05:07.74\00:05:09.17
So I remember renting a
book or, you now, leasing a book
00:05:09.20\00:05:12.14
out of the library
at school about sex,
00:05:12.17\00:05:14.78
and I guess it was
something on my mind
00:05:14.81\00:05:17.01
and I would look at
the images in the book
00:05:17.05\00:05:18.71
that were very
clinical and medical,
00:05:18.75\00:05:20.82
and I try to
figure out or stimulate
00:05:20.85\00:05:23.45
that experience and,
you know, I recognized
00:05:23.49\00:05:25.85
I guess at that age
that there were something
00:05:25.89\00:05:27.46
stimulating about that.
00:05:27.49\00:05:29.16
Praise God, I was
never abused as a child,
00:05:29.19\00:05:31.63
I was never molested,
00:05:31.66\00:05:33.26
and so this experience
was something that I believe
00:05:33.29\00:05:36.63
was being brought
on through the enemy
00:05:36.67\00:05:38.73
through no other source
than just my own imagination.
00:05:38.77\00:05:41.30
Well, okay.
Well, thank you, Mike.
00:05:41.34\00:05:43.20
And, Lance, did
this begin with you
00:05:43.24\00:05:46.21
at a very early age or
about what age were you?
00:05:46.24\00:05:49.44
Yeah, about 10
years old. About 10 years.
00:05:49.48\00:05:51.95
And see that's amazing to me
00:05:51.98\00:05:53.35
because in my mind 10
years old is before puberty.
00:05:53.38\00:05:57.29
And so why would anyone
even now be lead to that.
00:05:57.32\00:06:02.82
But I mean,
there are circumstances
00:06:02.86\00:06:04.36
and we'll talk about that.
00:06:04.39\00:06:05.93
But I think a lot of
people in the audience today
00:06:05.96\00:06:08.73
would be rather
shocked that this could be
00:06:08.76\00:06:12.13
a behavior manifesting
itself in someone 10 years old,
00:06:12.17\00:06:16.10
but I understand it can
even be earlier than that.
00:06:16.14\00:06:19.17
Wayne, do you have
anything to offer on that?
00:06:19.21\00:06:22.54
Yeah, I was
introduced to masturbation
00:06:22.58\00:06:26.28
basically through the sons
of my parents' best friends
00:06:26.31\00:06:31.92
who we used to go camping with
00:06:31.95\00:06:34.39
and I didn't know
anything about it,
00:06:34.42\00:06:39.09
I began to see
it as an association
00:06:39.13\00:06:42.20
with the same gender,
00:06:42.23\00:06:43.60
and so not only was I
developing the habit that
00:06:43.63\00:06:47.54
I certainly didn't need
to participate in my life,
00:06:47.57\00:06:50.21
but it was beginning to reaffirm
00:06:50.24\00:06:51.84
my same gender
attractiveness in as well.
00:06:51.87\00:06:54.94
At about what age?
00:06:54.98\00:06:56.31
About 13. About 13.
00:06:56.34\00:06:58.55
And I suppose with many children
00:06:58.58\00:07:02.28
it is more common
at the age of puberty
00:07:02.32\00:07:05.59
or after puberty begins.
00:07:05.62\00:07:07.72
Mike, your
family, what was that like
00:07:07.76\00:07:12.76
at the time that you began
indulging in this behavior?
00:07:12.79\00:07:16.56
And could that have
been a contributing factor?
00:07:16.60\00:07:18.77
Absolutely.
00:07:18.80\00:07:20.37
Again I was
raised by single mom.
00:07:20.40\00:07:22.17
So we were living
actually in a situation,
00:07:22.20\00:07:25.77
my parents were divorced,
my father left my mother
00:07:25.81\00:07:28.61
and I'd already
rejected, you know,
00:07:28.64\00:07:30.81
masculinity through my dad,
00:07:30.85\00:07:32.18
so my fantasies
became homoerotic.
00:07:32.21\00:07:35.22
My mom also was devastated
by the loss of her husband,
00:07:35.25\00:07:39.35
the sexual
revolution was in full swing
00:07:39.39\00:07:41.89
and so my mother was
having multiple partners
00:07:41.92\00:07:46.73
that sometimes she would
be out whole night, sometime,
00:07:46.76\00:07:49.20
you know, she
would bring them home.
00:07:49.23\00:07:50.57
So, you know, a young kid
doesn't necessarily recognize
00:07:50.60\00:07:53.27
what's going on or
know what's normal,
00:07:53.30\00:07:55.27
or even acceptable, or moral.
00:07:55.30\00:07:57.77
And so I'm not angry at my mom,
00:07:57.81\00:08:00.84
I believe that she was
doing the best that she could
00:08:00.88\00:08:02.64
based on what she
had, but I also know that
00:08:02.68\00:08:05.11
those contributing
situations also made sex like
00:08:05.15\00:08:10.42
more of like an
openness about it.
00:08:10.45\00:08:13.76
And what it did,
it also isolated me
00:08:13.79\00:08:16.26
'cause I wasn't relating
to anyone else in my family.
00:08:16.29\00:08:18.43
I was experiencing the
hormones that come naturally
00:08:18.46\00:08:22.26
that God has given to
each one of us at that age.
00:08:22.30\00:08:25.20
And so I had nobody to guide me,
00:08:25.23\00:08:27.34
I had nobody to direct me,
00:08:27.37\00:08:29.10
and so it's
completely under the control
00:08:29.14\00:08:31.47
of whatever powers
that were going out
00:08:31.51\00:08:34.94
at my house at the time.
00:08:34.98\00:08:36.68
So from what you're
saying, it seems to me like
00:08:36.71\00:08:39.11
education is very
important, parental education...
00:08:39.15\00:08:42.55
Guidance, absolutely.
00:08:42.58\00:08:43.92
About sexuality
before they reach the age
00:08:43.95\00:08:46.69
where they would
be experimenting.
00:08:46.72\00:08:49.69
And we probably all
were lacking in that area.
00:08:49.72\00:08:55.06
You know, Ron, I
just want to add something
00:08:55.10\00:08:57.03
really quick there is because
I didn't have that education,
00:08:57.07\00:09:00.80
hadn't been told
about it in school
00:09:00.84\00:09:02.50
or from my parents or anything.
00:09:02.54\00:09:04.04
What happened as a result
of my learning that behavior
00:09:04.07\00:09:08.48
as I engaged with other boys,
00:09:08.51\00:09:10.85
I also wanted to
teach them that behavior.
00:09:10.88\00:09:13.78
So it's like a chain
reaction that was happening.
00:09:13.82\00:09:16.32
So with education, you
know, God can help, you know,
00:09:16.35\00:09:20.92
can work through us
and help prevent this
00:09:20.96\00:09:22.66
from happening to other people.
00:09:22.69\00:09:25.03
You know, I've heard it said
and I believe it is very true
00:09:25.06\00:09:27.90
that what children don't
learn from their parents,
00:09:27.93\00:09:31.97
from proper education sources,
00:09:32.00\00:09:35.00
they will pick
up in this subject
00:09:35.04\00:09:37.11
or in sexual subject,
00:09:37.14\00:09:38.47
they'll pick up
from the streets.
00:09:38.51\00:09:40.48
Mike, you have
something to share on that?
00:09:40.51\00:09:42.71
Right, you know
what's incredible is
00:09:42.74\00:09:44.28
because of my
circumstances and my history,
00:09:44.31\00:09:46.75
I've a relative who
is talking to a young son
00:09:46.78\00:09:49.25
at three years old
and he was curious about,
00:09:49.28\00:09:52.12
you know, his private
parts and she confront to him,
00:09:52.15\00:09:55.12
she goes, yes, that
feels good, doesn't it?
00:09:55.16\00:09:57.33
And she said, you know,
God gave you your fingers
00:09:57.36\00:09:59.66
and your toes and she
said, he also gave you that
00:09:59.69\00:10:02.66
and said that's supposed
to be special only to him.
00:10:02.70\00:10:05.37
And then when the
time is right, you know,
00:10:05.40\00:10:08.94
she would share
appropriately you know
00:10:08.97\00:10:11.21
with what he could
understand at his age
00:10:11.24\00:10:13.17
that he probably
shouldn't do that.
00:10:13.21\00:10:14.94
And then as he
became in his teens,
00:10:14.98\00:10:17.11
she sat down
with him and discussed
00:10:17.15\00:10:19.01
"Listen, you're at the age now
00:10:19.05\00:10:20.38
where you gonna
be feeling things
00:10:20.42\00:10:21.75
and talking
about, you know what,
00:10:21.78\00:10:25.12
I've gone through and
use my as an example."
00:10:25.15\00:10:27.46
And as she related
to this young boy about
00:10:27.49\00:10:30.56
what I'd struggled with,
00:10:30.59\00:10:31.96
you know, he started to see that
00:10:31.99\00:10:33.36
there was something that
needed to be held back and check
00:10:33.40\00:10:36.73
and that he needed
to be deliberate about
00:10:36.77\00:10:39.43
what his goals were
00:10:39.47\00:10:40.97
and to know that
if he were to indulge
00:10:41.00\00:10:43.94
masturbation or experimentation
00:10:43.97\00:10:46.41
that it could open up
this huge addiction for him.
00:10:46.44\00:10:48.91
So I thought that
that was a great example
00:10:48.94\00:10:50.91
of starting very
early teaching your children
00:10:50.95\00:10:53.45
about what their parts
are and how they perform
00:10:53.48\00:10:56.65
at an age appropriate level.
00:10:56.69\00:10:59.42
I want to turn
to another question.
00:10:59.45\00:11:01.19
Thank you, Mike.
00:11:01.22\00:11:02.76
I want to turn to
another question here
00:11:02.79\00:11:04.33
because I'm thinking after these
00:11:04.36\00:11:09.46
first initial
experiments with self-abuse,
00:11:09.50\00:11:13.03
and Lance will
ask you this question.
00:11:13.07\00:11:15.30
How did you feel
when it was over?
00:11:15.34\00:11:17.21
Did you feel guilt or shame
or what was the feeling after?
00:11:17.24\00:11:23.21
I felt very, very
perverted. I felt dirty.
00:11:23.24\00:11:29.85
I felt that it
wasn't appropriate.
00:11:29.88\00:11:34.62
Did you feel that way
because of having been told
00:11:34.66\00:11:38.76
that this was wrong or
did that feeling of shame
00:11:38.79\00:11:42.16
and dirtiness and guilt,
they did just come naturally?
00:11:42.20\00:11:44.97
They just came naturally to
me I don't know why, I just did.
00:11:45.00\00:11:47.57
You know, before
I was a Christian.
00:11:47.60\00:11:49.94
You know that tells me that
00:11:49.97\00:11:52.17
even by nature we know
right from wrong in many areas.
00:11:52.21\00:11:58.21
When we go against what
God has created us to be,
00:11:58.25\00:12:02.72
there is something that
happens that lets us know
00:12:02.75\00:12:06.15
this was wrong,
it's against nature
00:12:06.19\00:12:08.59
even if we were
not schooled in it.
00:12:08.62\00:12:11.03
I think that's a
fascinating revelation there
00:12:11.06\00:12:14.90
that even without that
training you felt guilt.
00:12:14.93\00:12:17.17
How about you, Wayne,
did you feel guilt and shame?
00:12:17.20\00:12:20.14
Yeah, I did. I felt dirty.
00:12:20.17\00:12:22.90
It wasn't
something that was promoted,
00:12:22.94\00:12:24.97
obviously it's
something that wasn't been
00:12:25.01\00:12:26.81
talked about in my family,
00:12:26.84\00:12:28.24
so that was a
big clue that I was,
00:12:28.28\00:12:29.98
must be doing
something that wasn't natural.
00:12:30.01\00:12:34.55
You know, too many
people today I think they see it
00:12:34.58\00:12:36.52
as something
that's normal and natural,
00:12:36.55\00:12:38.29
but that's because
of where we've come
00:12:38.32\00:12:40.32
in our openness
about our sexuality
00:12:40.36\00:12:42.26
instead of putting the
focus back on Jesus Christ.
00:12:42.29\00:12:45.03
And a pastor
recently mentioned to me
00:12:45.06\00:12:48.36
in stating the word to
think about this masturbate.
00:12:48.40\00:12:53.74
It is the
masturbate that Satan uses
00:12:53.77\00:12:57.37
for a lot of
people to engage them
00:12:57.41\00:12:59.47
in this behavior, this ectopidy.
00:12:59.51\00:13:01.91
It's a very interesting term
00:13:01.94\00:13:03.38
and also what we're
seeing today is that
00:13:03.41\00:13:07.95
this as we grew up
this was a taboo issue
00:13:07.98\00:13:11.79
even though it may
have been indulged,
00:13:11.82\00:13:14.42
it was considered to
be wrong, there was guilt,
00:13:14.46\00:13:17.49
but there's a strong
effort today in social circles
00:13:17.53\00:13:21.20
to conditioned children
as young as four years old
00:13:21.23\00:13:24.07
that, "This is normal
human behavior, it's okay"
00:13:24.10\00:13:27.30
and even teaching
them how to do it.
00:13:27.34\00:13:29.87
And as I recall
back in the olden days
00:13:29.90\00:13:34.01
is my children would say
when I was four years old,
00:13:34.04\00:13:39.01
I wasn't thought
anything about sexual behavior,
00:13:39.05\00:13:43.32
you know, from parents or...
00:13:43.35\00:13:44.85
It was too early
is what I am saying
00:13:44.89\00:13:46.92
that such an early
age to be teaching it.
00:13:46.96\00:13:50.63
But it is becoming more
and more accepted and promoted
00:13:50.66\00:13:54.20
and it shows me how
Satan is working against God
00:13:54.23\00:13:57.60
in this area and
against God's children.
00:13:57.63\00:13:59.77
That's right.
00:13:59.80\00:14:01.14
Mike, did you feel
conviction or at what point
00:14:01.17\00:14:04.37
did you feel
conviction that this was wrong
00:14:04.41\00:14:07.38
and that maybe
you needed to change?
00:14:07.41\00:14:09.61
But maybe there's
more you would like to say
00:14:09.64\00:14:11.55
about your life, how
it was caught up in this?
00:14:11.58\00:14:16.18
I think, you
know, I was listening
00:14:16.22\00:14:17.55
to everybody else.
00:14:17.59\00:14:18.92
I didn't have the conviction
necessarily that Lance had.
00:14:18.95\00:14:21.32
Again, this was
kind of my own discovery.
00:14:21.36\00:14:23.09
I was trying to
change thinking about,
00:14:23.12\00:14:27.13
you know, homosexual thoughts.
00:14:27.16\00:14:28.66
I was trying to change it around
00:14:28.70\00:14:30.17
to heterosexual thoughts
through experimentation.
00:14:30.20\00:14:32.40
So, you know, it
sounds ridiculous
00:14:32.43\00:14:35.04
but it was almost like a
scientific experiment for me.
00:14:35.07\00:14:37.77
Oh, therapy, self
therapy. Right, right.
00:14:37.81\00:14:40.04
But I know that
there was shame involved
00:14:40.08\00:14:42.01
because, you know, of
course I did in secrecy.
00:14:42.04\00:14:44.51
You know, I didn't
want anyone to find out,
00:14:44.55\00:14:46.51
and I think it had to do
with when it really started
00:14:46.55\00:14:48.88
going into fantasy
rather than experimentation,
00:14:48.92\00:14:51.65
you know, my
thoughts I knew were dirty.
00:14:51.69\00:14:54.26
I didn't necessarily
know that the act was dirty,
00:14:54.29\00:14:56.26
but I knew what my thoughts were
00:14:56.29\00:14:58.06
and the conviction really
came when I became a Christian
00:14:58.09\00:15:00.83
or when I got
baptized at about 14 years old.
00:15:00.86\00:15:04.07
I knew then that the thoughts
in my mind were not, you know,
00:15:04.10\00:15:08.50
what Jesus had
intended, and I believe that
00:15:08.54\00:15:10.81
that was the time
when the sin was conceived
00:15:10.84\00:15:14.94
was when I
entertain those thoughts
00:15:14.98\00:15:16.98
which of course
the behavior followed.
00:15:17.01\00:15:20.12
Well, I wanted to
do a little follow up
00:15:20.15\00:15:21.95
question here, a two part.
00:15:21.98\00:15:24.99
Where did the
masturbation take you
00:15:25.02\00:15:28.06
and then where did
the conviction take you,
00:15:28.09\00:15:30.99
or when the
conviction that it was wrong?
00:15:31.03\00:15:36.23
Well, the masturbation
was just an absolute addiction
00:15:36.26\00:15:39.47
from the earliest time.
00:15:39.50\00:15:40.84
I would say about the
time I was 14 years old
00:15:40.87\00:15:43.51
I would do it,
sometimes 10 times in a day.
00:15:43.54\00:15:46.64
I remember crying out
to the only God that I knew
00:15:46.68\00:15:50.41
that I was
punitive and arbitrary
00:15:50.45\00:15:52.95
and not recognizing necessarily
that he could change me,
00:15:52.98\00:15:56.12
but I believe that I
had to change myself,
00:15:56.15\00:15:59.95
not wanting to give
into sex but, you know,
00:15:59.99\00:16:02.36
definitely it brought
around homoerotic thoughts.
00:16:02.39\00:16:05.59
It confirmed to me
that my suspicions were true
00:16:05.63\00:16:08.63
that I was gay.
00:16:08.66\00:16:10.83
And then what happened is
it became sexualized in academy
00:16:10.87\00:16:14.20
when I was, you
know, exposed to that
00:16:14.24\00:16:16.37
by a roommate in academy.
00:16:16.40\00:16:18.44
And then again
trying to, you know,
00:16:18.47\00:16:20.61
do the behavior stuff but,
even when I was 17 years old
00:16:20.64\00:16:23.81
and cried out that
God would take my life.
00:16:23.85\00:16:25.65
I believe that God
knew I wasn't ready
00:16:25.68\00:16:27.92
because I still was
indulging in this habit
00:16:27.95\00:16:30.15
that I was
absolutely out of control.
00:16:30.19\00:16:32.35
I even know that,
00:16:32.39\00:16:33.72
that several of the
guys in the dorm, you know,
00:16:33.76\00:16:35.52
when we would do the
room grades, you know,
00:16:35.56\00:16:37.53
we would catch guys
00:16:37.56\00:16:38.99
in the act of
masturbation as well.
00:16:39.03\00:16:40.43
But of course, you know,
the dean never confronted it,
00:16:40.46\00:16:42.96
never had a...
00:16:43.00\00:16:44.37
You know or talk
about the dangers of it,
00:16:44.40\00:16:46.10
or what the Bible said.
00:16:46.13\00:16:48.30
So my senior year,
the senior Bible teacher
00:16:48.34\00:16:51.67
took the boys aside
and the girls apart.
00:16:51.71\00:16:53.78
And on the day for the
boys, he said, "Listen,
00:16:53.81\00:16:56.11
'cause 99% of all
males masturbate."
00:16:56.14\00:16:58.98
And he said,
"And one percent lie."
00:16:59.01\00:17:01.32
And right then
being a 17-year old,
00:17:01.35\00:17:03.49
I basically said, "Oh,
00:17:03.52\00:17:05.19
I guess Jesus
just can't help me."
00:17:05.22\00:17:06.86
Well, let me just
interject right there.
00:17:06.89\00:17:09.49
If you hear that
kind of a number,
00:17:09.52\00:17:12.43
does that not confirm you in it
00:17:12.46\00:17:15.26
rather than make you
want to turn from it?
00:17:15.30\00:17:17.80
It was that point
where I just said,
00:17:17.83\00:17:19.20
"I got free license."
00:17:19.23\00:17:20.77
You know, if God
can't help me on this,
00:17:20.80\00:17:22.27
I guess it's not that bad.
00:17:22.30\00:17:24.37
I think that his
words especially coming
00:17:24.41\00:17:26.37
from a leader in a church,
somebody that we respected,
00:17:26.41\00:17:29.31
the Bible teacher, you
know, I guess I thought, well,
00:17:29.34\00:17:32.18
I guess that make
sense, that must be right
00:17:32.21\00:17:33.85
because I'm out
of control with it.
00:17:33.88\00:17:35.88
So I took that
as a free license.
00:17:35.92\00:17:37.89
Well, with that free license
then how did you ever choose
00:17:37.92\00:17:41.02
to come out of masturbation,
the habit of masturbation?
00:17:41.06\00:17:44.16
Well, I believe that God
just never gave up on me.
00:17:44.19\00:17:46.39
And when I finally got
victory over masturbation
00:17:46.43\00:17:50.10
I was in my 40s.
00:17:50.13\00:17:51.83
So from 17 until the
time I was in my 40s,
00:17:51.87\00:17:54.90
you know,
between sexual conquests
00:17:54.94\00:17:57.67
and this vile habit in between.
00:17:57.71\00:17:59.97
In my 40s I finally
came under conviction,
00:18:00.01\00:18:02.71
I knew that some of
the quotes that I read,
00:18:02.74\00:18:05.45
Romans 8:13 saying,
00:18:05.48\00:18:06.95
"If you live after
the flesh, you shall die."
00:18:06.98\00:18:11.65
It couldn't be
more plainer than that.
00:18:11.69\00:18:13.59
I realized that I
was out of control
00:18:13.62\00:18:15.29
but he didn't necessarily
know how to gain control,
00:18:15.32\00:18:18.19
but as I started to
realize or gain knowledge
00:18:18.23\00:18:22.23
from other pastors,
00:18:22.26\00:18:23.60
it just would be
talking about other things
00:18:23.63\00:18:25.47
and reading Ministry
of Healing in particular
00:18:25.50\00:18:27.80
that God wanted to give
me the power to overcome,
00:18:27.84\00:18:30.57
that I wasn't left up
to my own to just say,
00:18:30.61\00:18:32.41
no, don't do it, don't do
it because that never worked.
00:18:32.44\00:18:34.91
And so as I would
ask God to assist me
00:18:34.94\00:18:37.75
in the process
of overcoming this,
00:18:37.78\00:18:39.81
I started to gain
victory very slowly.
00:18:39.85\00:18:43.08
And so shame and regret
and remorse and low self esteem
00:18:43.12\00:18:47.52
would come in
everytime I would fall.
00:18:47.56\00:18:49.59
But, you know, the
scriptures that say, 1 John 1:9,
00:18:49.62\00:18:52.06
"If we confess our
sins, He is faithful
00:18:52.09\00:18:54.93
and just to
forgive us of our sins
00:18:54.96\00:18:56.36
and then to cleanse us
from all unrighteousness."
00:18:56.40\00:18:58.43
Those simple
words, I had to realize
00:18:58.47\00:19:01.00
I wasn't the one that
was called to be faithful,
00:19:01.04\00:19:03.24
I couldn't be faithful, I
had to claim His faithfulness
00:19:03.27\00:19:07.08
whether I stayed
strong or whether I fell
00:19:07.11\00:19:09.18
to recognize that He
was the same goodness
00:19:09.21\00:19:11.48
whether I was in the
pit or out of the pit.
00:19:11.51\00:19:13.85
And I guess that my
history from my own father
00:19:13.88\00:19:16.58
and the rejection that I felt,
00:19:16.62\00:19:18.15
I thought how could God love
me if I'm indulging in this,
00:19:18.19\00:19:20.66
but I believe that
that was actually keeping me
00:19:20.69\00:19:22.69
from the
knowledge of knowing that
00:19:22.72\00:19:24.39
God wanted to pick me up.
00:19:24.43\00:19:26.03
Let me suggest here
the shame, the remorse
00:19:26.06\00:19:29.90
Lance and Wayne also
this shame, and remorse,
00:19:29.93\00:19:33.67
and the guilt that you felt
00:19:33.70\00:19:36.14
or would perpetually
feel after masturbating.
00:19:36.17\00:19:40.18
Could God have been
using that to work in you
00:19:40.21\00:19:44.48
to develop a hatred
for sin, a hatred for this
00:19:44.51\00:19:48.75
because it's when we feel
remorse, and shame, and guilt
00:19:48.78\00:19:52.45
that's when we are reminded
there is an alternative.
00:19:52.49\00:19:56.99
Wayne, you were going
to say something I believe.
00:19:57.03\00:19:59.59
Well, I think that
some of the viewers
00:19:59.63\00:20:01.66
may be sitting there going,
00:20:01.70\00:20:03.47
"What is the big
deal they're talking about
00:20:03.50\00:20:05.50
masturbation, it's natural.
00:20:05.53\00:20:07.24
What's the problem here?"
00:20:07.27\00:20:08.80
And, you know, I think we
have to take a look at that
00:20:08.84\00:20:11.71
and that is in this
that, you know, what,
00:20:11.74\00:20:15.31
whatever is taking
our focus off of Jesus,
00:20:15.34\00:20:18.81
whatever is putting
our focus on someone else,
00:20:18.85\00:20:21.38
or what is that putting in
our self our focus on our self
00:20:21.42\00:20:25.72
and the
adoration of somebody else
00:20:25.75\00:20:29.29
or putting up a figure, images
00:20:29.32\00:20:31.99
that have become
idols in our lives.
00:20:32.03\00:20:34.20
This is where the deception
is coming in by the enemy.
00:20:34.23\00:20:38.67
This is where they built
in emotion for a lot of people
00:20:38.70\00:20:41.54
after this act brings
about the shame and the guilt,
00:20:41.57\00:20:44.87
because it's not
according to God's plan.
00:20:44.91\00:20:47.28
And so, I reflect to the
verse Philippians 2:5 that says,
00:20:47.31\00:20:52.31
"Let the mind of
Christ be in you."
00:20:52.35\00:20:54.52
And so, it is
something that I think
00:20:54.55\00:20:57.09
I want the viewer to contemplate
00:20:57.12\00:21:00.42
if you're sitting
there wondering, you know,
00:21:00.46\00:21:02.06
what's the big
deal about masturbation,
00:21:02.09\00:21:04.39
think about the
images of Jesus Christ
00:21:04.43\00:21:06.43
and what He would have
take place in your own life.
00:21:06.46\00:21:08.83
That verse alone,
I remember one time
00:21:08.86\00:21:11.20
stepping into the shower
after I gotten the victory
00:21:11.23\00:21:14.07
and I was surrounded by soap
00:21:14.10\00:21:16.07
and, you know,
what I'm talking about
00:21:16.10\00:21:18.17
just then the thought
to masturbate was so strong
00:21:18.21\00:21:22.18
and I knew it
wasn't coming from God.
00:21:22.21\00:21:24.01
And I remember that verse
00:21:24.05\00:21:25.48
and I said very
plainly, go, Lord,
00:21:25.51\00:21:27.02
I'm giving you permission
to take my thoughts right now
00:21:27.05\00:21:29.68
and if you don't do it,
00:21:29.72\00:21:31.05
I'm going to
masturbate right now.
00:21:31.09\00:21:33.32
And as soon as I
just gave God permission,
00:21:33.36\00:21:35.22
there was
nothing else that I did,
00:21:35.26\00:21:37.43
but my next conscious
thought was about baseball
00:21:37.46\00:21:40.40
and I hate baseball.
00:21:40.43\00:21:41.93
And so
immediately the victory came
00:21:41.96\00:21:44.63
and that has
actually been a tool for me,
00:21:44.67\00:21:46.94
that simple verse, Wayne,
00:21:46.97\00:21:48.30
and it doesn't
have to be complicated.
00:21:48.34\00:21:50.21
But recognizing that
I can't do it on my own,
00:21:50.24\00:21:52.94
but I can solicit the
help of the one who can,
00:21:52.97\00:21:55.74
and the victory has
been sweet and consistent.
00:21:55.78\00:21:58.91
And here's a
thought that has come to me
00:21:58.95\00:22:00.72
as we're having this discussion.
00:22:00.75\00:22:02.25
And it's kind of a
provocative thought maybe.
00:22:02.28\00:22:07.76
Could it be that masturbation
feeds into homosexuality
00:22:07.79\00:22:13.96
simply because you are
now actually participating
00:22:14.00\00:22:18.10
in same gender sex?
00:22:18.13\00:22:20.17
That's right. That's right.
00:22:20.20\00:22:21.54
If you are prone to
that in the first place,
00:22:21.57\00:22:25.97
and then you
indulge in masturbation,
00:22:26.01\00:22:27.88
you are carrying
out the same gender sex?
00:22:27.91\00:22:31.11
So imagine how
many heterosexual men
00:22:31.15\00:22:33.42
would be horrified to think that
00:22:33.45\00:22:35.32
when they
indulge in that behavior
00:22:35.35\00:22:37.25
that they are
actually having homosexual sex.
00:22:37.29\00:22:40.59
Yes, I mean, that
thought came to me
00:22:40.62\00:22:42.32
as we're having this discussion.
00:22:42.36\00:22:44.06
I think that would
be rather alarming.
00:22:44.09\00:22:47.13
We need to move on here.
00:22:47.16\00:22:49.76
How did this maybe,
Lance, this would be a question
00:22:49.80\00:22:54.77
that you can help us with?
00:22:54.80\00:22:56.24
How did this come
to an end in your life?
00:22:56.27\00:22:59.57
Did you have another
thought prior to that?
00:22:59.61\00:23:01.64
Well, this will
kind of fits in well
00:23:01.68\00:23:03.01
I'm going to say
actually you know.
00:23:03.04\00:23:04.48
So many people I
think you guys know,
00:23:04.51\00:23:05.85
so many people say
there's no verse in Bible
00:23:05.88\00:23:07.38
that says anything
about masturbation.
00:23:07.42\00:23:09.35
I hear this over and
over again but Romans 6:13
00:23:09.38\00:23:13.36
has been a verse
that spoke to me, it says,
00:23:13.39\00:23:16.56
"Neither yield you your members
00:23:16.59\00:23:17.99
as instruments of
unrighteousness unto sin,
00:23:18.03\00:23:20.80
but yield yourselves unto God
00:23:20.83\00:23:22.16
as those that are
alive from the dead,
00:23:22.20\00:23:23.53
and your members as instruments
of righteousness unto God."
00:23:23.57\00:23:26.03
So he's talking about members,
what does that mean to you?
00:23:26.07\00:23:30.04
My body parts. Body
parts, isn't that amazing.
00:23:30.07\00:23:33.31
And when we read
about presenting your bodies
00:23:33.34\00:23:36.28
a living sacrifice
that goes along with this.
00:23:36.31\00:23:38.98
We are to
surrender our body parts,
00:23:39.01\00:23:41.08
our members to the
God who created them
00:23:41.12\00:23:43.82
and use them in the way
He designed it to be used.
00:23:43.85\00:23:47.52
You know, Ron, another thing
00:23:47.56\00:23:49.19
not just when
you're indulging in the act
00:23:49.22\00:23:51.39
or you're doing
a homosexual act,
00:23:51.43\00:23:53.06
but you're actually
engaging in sex with demons.
00:23:53.09\00:23:56.40
And a quote from Desire of Ages,
00:23:56.43\00:23:57.97
page 36 says,
00:23:58.00\00:23:59.50
"The senses, the nerves,
00:23:59.53\00:24:01.74
the passions, the
very organs of men
00:24:01.77\00:24:04.37
were worked by
supernatural agencies
00:24:04.41\00:24:07.01
in the indulgence
of the vilest lust.
00:24:07.04\00:24:09.81
The very stamp of demons
00:24:09.84\00:24:11.91
was impressed upon
the countenances of men."
00:24:11.95\00:24:14.22
Isn't that a frightening thought
00:24:14.25\00:24:16.05
that here someone in the privacy
00:24:16.08\00:24:19.15
of his or her own
home or room, closet,
00:24:19.19\00:24:22.42
whatever is
deceiving him or herself
00:24:22.46\00:24:27.20
into thinking this is just me,
00:24:27.23\00:24:29.16
it's private, no
one needs to know.
00:24:29.20\00:24:31.47
What a frightening
thought to think that, no,
00:24:31.50\00:24:33.54
you're not there alone,
demons are there assisting you,
00:24:33.57\00:24:36.97
and God's angels
are also observing.
00:24:37.01\00:24:40.81
You are not alone, we
are never alone, are we?
00:24:40.84\00:24:44.25
On this note, I think it
would be good to bring out
00:24:44.28\00:24:47.35
some scriptural
references that would bring
00:24:47.38\00:24:50.69
hope and encouragement
00:24:50.72\00:24:52.55
and lead us to
thoughts of victory in this
00:24:52.59\00:24:55.69
and any other area of sin.
00:24:55.72\00:24:58.46
I have one, Romans 6:6-8 says,
00:24:58.49\00:25:02.00
"Knowing this our old
man is crucified with him,
00:25:02.03\00:25:04.90
meaning Christ,
00:25:04.93\00:25:06.33
that the body of
sin might be destroyed
00:25:06.37\00:25:09.14
that from now on we
should not serve sin,
00:25:09.17\00:25:11.91
for He that is
dead is freed from sin,
00:25:11.94\00:25:14.74
now if we be dead with Christ,
00:25:14.78\00:25:16.61
we believe that we
will also live with Him."
00:25:16.64\00:25:20.05
That's a powerful text.
00:25:20.08\00:25:21.58
That, Lance, did
you have one or, Wayne,
00:25:21.62\00:25:24.42
you have one that comes to mind?
00:25:24.45\00:25:26.96
I don't have the
specific reference
00:25:26.99\00:25:28.39
but I know it's in
Romans where Paul tells us that
00:25:28.42\00:25:31.79
we need to die
to the flesh daily
00:25:31.83\00:25:34.93
to die to ourselves daily.
00:25:34.96\00:25:36.50
And that's just
something that I'm reminded of
00:25:36.53\00:25:39.13
whenever I have
physical temptations
00:25:39.17\00:25:42.14
is about dying to
self and letting them.
00:25:42.17\00:25:45.31
Again Philippians 2:5,
00:25:45.34\00:25:46.68
letting the mind
of Christ be in it.
00:25:46.71\00:25:48.08
That's interesting
because I can just piggyback
00:25:48.11\00:25:51.21
on your comment there.
00:25:51.25\00:25:54.52
For me, it helps
me when I realize that
00:25:54.55\00:25:57.32
my old man is dead,
it's buried into baptism.
00:25:57.35\00:26:01.76
And so when I have a temptation
to do these type of things,
00:26:01.79\00:26:04.23
I always have to
remember, oh, no, no, no,
00:26:04.26\00:26:05.73
this is from the past,
00:26:05.76\00:26:07.10
and I'm a new
creature in Christ,
00:26:07.13\00:26:08.90
so I'm not going to
be doing this anymore.
00:26:08.93\00:26:10.47
You know, Proverbs
19:23, to me actually not
00:26:10.50\00:26:14.57
it's related to
the act of masturbation
00:26:14.60\00:26:16.64
because again its
self-love, you know,
00:26:16.67\00:26:19.51
nurturing yourself
or satisfying yourself.
00:26:19.54\00:26:22.41
And so Proverbs 19:23 says,
00:26:22.44\00:26:24.78
"The fear of the
Lord tends to life,
00:26:24.81\00:26:27.42
and he that has it
will abide satisfied."
00:26:27.45\00:26:30.92
And so as I was
being filled by Jesus,
00:26:30.95\00:26:33.36
as I was pursuing Him
and recognizing the goodness
00:26:33.39\00:26:36.16
that He was pouring out
to me, I got a satisfaction
00:26:36.19\00:26:39.19
that actually started to
break the addictive cycle
00:26:39.23\00:26:41.96
and gave me a satisfaction.
00:26:42.00\00:26:43.50
So this wasn't an overnight,
you know, thing for me,
00:26:43.53\00:26:46.80
it was a process of learning
00:26:46.84\00:26:48.50
how to hand it over to the Lord.
00:26:48.54\00:26:49.87
And as He gave me
something that satisfied more,
00:26:49.90\00:26:52.27
I actually
didn't have the desire
00:26:52.31\00:26:54.58
to not only hook up sexually
00:26:54.61\00:26:56.11
but also broke the
cycle of masturbation.
00:26:56.14\00:26:59.21
Amen. Thank you.
00:26:59.25\00:27:01.18
I would like to
bring this to a conclusion
00:27:01.22\00:27:03.08
with this quote,
00:27:03.12\00:27:04.75
"When persons are addicted
to the habit of self-abuse,
00:27:04.79\00:27:08.06
it is impossible to
arouse their moral sensibilities
00:27:08.09\00:27:11.03
to appreciate eternal things,
00:27:11.06\00:27:13.19
or to delight in
spiritual exercises.
00:27:13.23\00:27:16.26
Impure thoughts seize
and control the imagination
00:27:16.30\00:27:19.30
and fascinate the mind.
00:27:19.33\00:27:21.10
And next follows an
almost uncontrollable desire
00:27:21.14\00:27:25.94
for the
performance of impure actions."
00:27:25.97\00:27:29.54
Again this is from a
quote from Ellen White.
00:27:29.58\00:27:33.68
We want to thank
you for joining us today
00:27:33.72\00:27:36.48
on our program of Pure Choices.
00:27:36.52\00:27:38.89
And again, we wish
that God will continue
00:27:38.92\00:27:42.12
and hope that God
will continue to bless you
00:27:42.16\00:27:44.46
in your daily walk with
Him as you make pure choices
00:27:44.49\00:27:48.43
each and every minute
and hour of every day.
00:27:48.46\00:27:51.93
Thank you again for
watching Pure Choices.
00:27:51.97\00:27:54.90