The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Welcome to Pure Choices.
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I'm Ron Woolsey with
Coming Out Ministries
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and with me today
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are my colleagues
from Coming Out Ministries,
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Mike Carducci and Wayne Blakely.
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We're going to
talk about a subject
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that has a
catchy title I believe,
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"Can Born a Gay be Born Again?"
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The debate
continues on this subject
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as to whether
one can be born gay
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but-- well let's just
talk about that for a second
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because there
are so many different
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differences of
opinion on this issue
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and we'll talk about
this and then we'll talk about
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later on whether it
really matters or not.
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Mike, what are
your thoughts on that
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or what have you
heard about this?
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Wow, deep question.
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So for me early on, I
thought I was born gay.
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From my earliest recollection
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even at six-years-old
before I was sexualized,
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I knew that I was
different than the other boys.
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I knew that, that
something had happen
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and so as I grew up the
world was screaming that
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I was born gay and I
just readily accepted it
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because I wasn't hearing
anyone else say otherwise.
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So I believe
that I was born gay.
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I also now after I came
out of the gay lifestyle
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as I began the
journey with Jesus Christ,
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He showed me
also through the word
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that sin was generational.
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And so if
homosexuality is an abomination
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and it's a sin, adultery,
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then I had to, I
had to recognize it
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that also came from,
from generations before me.
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You know, there's
sexual sin on both sides
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of my parents'
families for generations.
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I had a great grandmother
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that was a
prostitute during the depression
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and so that helped
me to recognize that
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sin was not only generational
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and so I believe that,
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that there was an
aspect that I was born gay.
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And so, that
helped me in that quest
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to find out why this happened?
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How this was created
or allowed to happen in me
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because from my
earliest recollection,
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I loved God, I loved Jesus.
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I wanted to make Him happy.
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I wanted to make
Him proud of who I was,
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but I couldn't fight
this onslaught of emotion
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and unmet needs
of my masculinity.
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And so yeah, Ron, I believe
that you can be born gay.
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From your earliest memories,
you believe you were born gay.
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And I know throughout my
childhood and teenage years
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and well, for many, many years
I felt that I was born gay.
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Because the reason
I felt that way was
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because I couldn't explain it.
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I didn't know why
I had the feelings
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and the confusion and
the emotions that I had.
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And so I just
eventually just accepted,
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maybe I was just born
this way, I was born different.
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So, Wayne, how do
you see this question?
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Is it true that
some people are born gay
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while other
people are born straight?
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Well, you know, I see gay
as a pretty definitive word
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and so, you know,
when you first hear that
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as a Christian
or someone who is,
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you know, not in agreement
with homosexual behavior
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like, no, no, that can't happen,
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that can't be, you know.
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And so, but let's
go back what is gay?
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We don't find it
in the Word of God,
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right, the gay, the
word term gay is not there.
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And so what actually is gay?
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You know, it is
having same-sex attraction.
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So I'd go back again
to my prenatal influence
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and that my
natural mother was adamant
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that she was not having a boy.
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She was
definitely gonna have a girl
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and if she did have a boy,
she was gonna reject that boy.
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And so my prenatal influence
and my postnatal conditioning
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pretty well says that I
was born into an environment
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that what I was
going to respond to
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was going to be the conditioning
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of being drawn to
the masculine figure
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rather than the feminine figure.
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And if we look at
Satan's plan versus God's plan
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and God's allowing
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the stain of sin
to be on all of us.
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Yeah, you bet I
think you can be born gay.
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And the question I
have in response is
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so what, you know?
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So if I can be
born gay, so what?
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We will cover that
question a little bit later.
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Oh, yeah. all right.
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Because that is a
very good question.
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But I want to just build
on this one a little bit more
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because as you felt
that you were born gay,
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they were prenatal influences,
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so that sounds
environmental, right?
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Doesn't it sound like
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that maybe you
were being conditioned
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by environment,
by circumstances,
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by the feelings and
thoughts and emotions
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and words of your mother
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because I know in third,
the third trimester pregnancy
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I have, I have heard
that that the babies,
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they respond to
that communication,
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they respond to
the, to soothing music
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and a loving warm environment
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and parents
talking to their children.
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I've seen these
beautiful pictures
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of daddies talking to
baby through mommy's tummy
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and so that when baby is
born, baby already recognizes.
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And actually they have shown
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that when the daddy speaks
to a baby after it's born,
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they have shown
and seen recognition
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that baby
recognizes daddy's voice
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as well as mommy's voice.
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So is this what I'm hearing
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that
conditioning was taking place?
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Well, trauma can even influence
a baby in a third trimester.
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Ministry of
Healing supports that
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in the chapter on mothers.
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Yes.
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And so in your case, Wayne,
you were being conditioned.
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Yeah, I believe
they're strongly conditioned.
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I think we have that to look at
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and I think that we
can also look in biblically
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verses that will tell us that
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and we have the sins
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of our
ancestors upon us as well.
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So that can be a
condition in as well.
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I've heard some
research in this area
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about that third trimester.
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I've only just play on this
just a little bit more here.
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It has to do with rejection
and this is your story,
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that, that babies can be
born with the sense of rejection
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because of the mother
may be feeling rejected
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or feeling fat and
ugly while she is pregnant
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or being put down by her husband
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or being in
depression, all kinds of factors
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that babies can actually be born
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with the sense of rejection
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and can struggle with that
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through many
years of their lives
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until they come
to terms with that.
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And some of these
babies grow into children
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that are seeking acceptance
in many different ways.
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So children with the
same sense of rejection
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can go in any number of
ways seeking that acceptance.
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And some go to
the homosexual side,
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some go to
promiscuity, heterosexual,
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then there's drugs,
alcohol, all kinds of things.
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So that, that third trimester
especially is very important
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and that
conditioning does happen.
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Now there's another statement
that I've heard out there
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which to me sounds like a myth
but correct me if I'm wrong.
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I'm hosting the program,
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but that doesn't mean
I have all the answers,
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that's why I'm
asking the questions.
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If you get the
questions wrong, answer wrong,
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then I'll correct you.
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No, I'm just kidding.
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But, you know,
once gay always gay,
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have you ever heard that, Mike?
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Yes, absolutely.
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Once gay always gay.
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You know, it sounds to me
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like some other
myths in doctrine
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like once saved always saved
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and in that-- for
example in that belief,
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it to me eliminates
the power of choice,
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"if once saved always saved"
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then you lose
your power of choice
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when you're converted.
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So do you lose your
power of choice if you're gay?
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Once gay always gay,
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Mike, what do
you think about that?
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Ron, that's such a heavy
for me because if that was true,
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when I was
converted and following Jesus,
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I didn't want to be straight.
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I wasn't even interested.
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I was desperately
looking to affirm the identity
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that it cultivated
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and then I felt
that I was born into.
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You know, the flesh
wants to stay that way.
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And so as I was looking for ways
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to keep my boyfriend
and to keep my identity,
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what was amazing is that
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I realized that God was
calling it an abomination
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and because I was finally
experiencing His love for me,
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then I got angry with God
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and I shook my
little fist at Him and said,
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"How dare You say
that I'm an abomination
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if you made me gay."
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Because I had bought
into that, that lie that,
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that I was born
gay or maybe not lie
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but to think that
Jesus was impotent,
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that He couldn't
help me out of that.
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So how dare a God
create someone gay
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and then turn around and
call them an abomination.
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And so that was when
I started realizing that
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if He called it an abomination
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and if I couldn't get out of it,
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then He wasn't a Savior at all,
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and if it's either
a Savior for everyone
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or is a Savior for no one.
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And I was at the bridge
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of actually
letting go of my salvation
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or even my pursuit of God,
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because that was
so offensive to me
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that after all the rejection
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that I've gotten
from men in my whole life
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that now my Savior was
saying that I was rejected
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if He made me that way.
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But God was so good
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because He
began to bathe over me
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understanding
that this may have been
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what sin had caused in my life,
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but it wasn't
gonna leave me there
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and that was powerful.
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Well, you know this dilemma
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that is created by that thinking
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is one thing that left me
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so bitter and angry against God.
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Were you ever bitter
and angry against God?
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Oh, yeah.
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Just a little. Not you, Wayne.
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You know, when I
was in the world,
00:10:35.36\00:10:36.77
I went into the world
bitter and angry against God
00:10:36.80\00:10:39.07
for these reasons
we're talking about here
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because I had no answers.
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Then I new I had
a degree in theology
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before I went
into the gay world.
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Shame on me, right.
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You think I had all the answers.
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No, I had a lot
of Bible knowledge,
00:10:50.71\00:10:53.11
but I didn't have my answers.
00:10:53.15\00:10:55.52
And so to read, to
have all this knowledge
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about how God feels
about homosexual behavior,
00:11:00.16\00:11:05.53
the condemnation
for that behavior,
00:11:05.56\00:11:07.73
the destruction of the wicked
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and then be
trapped in this body,
00:11:10.30\00:11:12.87
in this mindset
that, that's who I was.
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I had that same dilemma,
if God made me this way,
00:11:17.24\00:11:20.74
if I was born this way
and there are no answers,
00:11:20.78\00:11:23.65
then it's God's fault.
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That's right.
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And if it's God's
fault, shame on Him.
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Can you see how Satan uses that
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to turn victims
into enemies of God.
00:11:31.32\00:11:35.26
And is there not a
lot of hatred against God
00:11:35.29\00:11:38.36
within the gay community?
00:11:38.39\00:11:39.73
I think it's reasonable.
00:11:39.76\00:11:41.13
It's only fair.
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If you, if you've been
fed the lie and learn the lie,
00:11:42.60\00:11:46.00
you know, it makes
sense then I believe that
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even God recognizes
00:11:47.94\00:11:49.57
that, that some of
that is reasonable.
00:11:49.60\00:11:51.34
He says "Come and
let us reason together."
00:11:51.37\00:11:53.91
So when I started
getting real with God
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and I started getting
angry, I believe God was saying,
00:11:56.08\00:11:59.01
"Yes, Mike, let some of that out
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because as you open up
and start being real with Me,
00:12:00.72\00:12:03.65
then I can start
being real with you
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and to show you
that that isn't who I am.
00:12:05.25\00:12:08.06
You know, isn't it wonderful
00:12:08.09\00:12:09.42
that God's shoulders are so big?
00:12:09.46\00:12:11.46
He can take our anger. Yes.
00:12:11.49\00:12:13.66
Understanding that
we don't understand.
00:12:13.70\00:12:16.60
Yes.
00:12:16.63\00:12:17.97
It's almost like
00:12:18.00\00:12:19.33
"Go ahead and lash out
at Me, just talk to Me."
00:12:19.37\00:12:22.10
If you need to vent, vent to Me.
00:12:22.14\00:12:24.61
If you feel angry
and bitter against Me,
00:12:24.64\00:12:26.64
let it out and get
it out of your system
00:12:26.68\00:12:29.64
and then I will, then
I'll get your attention
00:12:29.68\00:12:32.01
and I'll show you
00:12:32.05\00:12:33.52
that you don't need
to be that way anymore.
00:12:33.55\00:12:36.08
And we can
resolve this anger issue
00:12:36.12\00:12:38.65
that is going on here.
00:12:38.69\00:12:40.12
Well, even if a little child
says they hate their parent,
00:12:40.16\00:12:42.89
it doesn't cause a parent
not to love the child anymore.
00:12:42.92\00:12:45.69
They know that
they're responding to,
00:12:45.73\00:12:47.66
you know, feelings or whatever.
00:12:47.70\00:12:49.03
And they know that
this is a temporary thing,
00:12:49.06\00:12:50.70
but at least the
child is being real.
00:12:50.73\00:12:53.20
Now here's another term
that I've heard so much.
00:12:53.23\00:12:57.14
In fact, I used it.
00:12:57.17\00:12:58.77
These terms that
I've heard so much about,
00:12:58.81\00:13:01.51
guess where I heard them?
00:13:01.54\00:13:04.51
From myself.
00:13:04.55\00:13:06.21
All those years in the world,
I was saying these things,
00:13:06.25\00:13:09.18
homosexuality isn't acceptable,
alternative lifestyle.
00:13:09.22\00:13:13.69
Wayne, did you ever say that?
00:13:13.72\00:13:15.56
Did you ever think
that or you ever heard that?
00:13:15.59\00:13:18.99
Yes, and I came
to a point I was--
00:13:19.03\00:13:22.80
when I began to get
settled in my gay identity
00:13:22.83\00:13:27.27
that I found that, that
this was what was natural to me
00:13:27.30\00:13:31.34
and when I went
00:13:31.37\00:13:32.84
and lived in Key
West, Florida for two years
00:13:32.87\00:13:35.91
and I came back, my
nephews began to say to me,
00:13:35.94\00:13:40.28
"Wow, we have never
heard you be so adamant
00:13:40.32\00:13:44.35
and so blatant
about your identity
00:13:44.39\00:13:46.92
as you are today."
00:13:46.96\00:13:48.32
And I had gone
and immersed myself
00:13:48.36\00:13:50.53
in a gay culture where
I just lived and breathe
00:13:50.56\00:13:54.76
men day in and day out
00:13:54.80\00:13:56.83
and in an intemperate
life, obviously you can tell,
00:13:56.87\00:14:01.90
you know, who
was controlling that.
00:14:01.94\00:14:03.91
Isn't it kind of
like drinking the Kool-Aid
00:14:03.94\00:14:05.94
or drinking the alcohol?
00:14:05.97\00:14:08.34
It's numbing the conscience
and numbing the argument
00:14:08.38\00:14:12.58
and drowning
oneself or covering oneself.
00:14:12.61\00:14:16.02
It's self justification. Right.
00:14:16.05\00:14:18.09
You know, the beauty,
the beauty that I see in this
00:14:18.12\00:14:20.92
as we talk about
this is that, you know,
00:14:20.96\00:14:23.76
we went in so many
different directions
00:14:23.79\00:14:25.99
that were not directions
that God intended us to go
00:14:26.03\00:14:29.76
but praise God, He knows
the beginning from the end.
00:14:29.80\00:14:33.34
And so He saw the whole story.
00:14:33.37\00:14:35.47
He knew that we in
our individual lives
00:14:35.50\00:14:40.21
would need to
experience certain things,
00:14:40.24\00:14:42.88
He would need to allow
us to go down certain roads
00:14:42.91\00:14:46.15
in order for us
to totally get it.
00:14:46.18\00:14:48.98
And when we got
it, we would come back
00:14:49.02\00:14:51.15
and we would be strong
and powerful in Jesus Christ
00:14:51.19\00:14:54.56
because now we know,
00:14:54.59\00:14:56.86
we know the difference
between darkness and light
00:14:56.89\00:14:59.53
and we know that
Jesus remains the same
00:14:59.56\00:15:01.63
because He's the same
yesterday, today and tomorrow.
00:15:01.66\00:15:04.93
Amen. Amen.
00:15:04.97\00:15:06.74
Okay, Mike, I have
this question for you.
00:15:06.77\00:15:09.04
If-- If
homosexuality is an acceptable--
00:15:09.07\00:15:14.84
Well, I should say is
based upon our discussion
00:15:14.88\00:15:18.51
and our study
and our experience,
00:15:18.55\00:15:19.88
is homosexuality really
00:15:19.91\00:15:21.82
an acceptable
alternative lifestyle
00:15:21.85\00:15:25.19
or is it a sin issue?
00:15:25.22\00:15:27.66
If it's an
acceptable lifestyle choice
00:15:27.69\00:15:31.39
then it makes
Jesus Christ impotent.
00:15:31.43\00:15:33.70
And that was the
bottom-line for me.
00:15:33.73\00:15:35.86
Because if Jesus
called it an abomination
00:15:35.90\00:15:38.77
and He couldn't
reach it or restore it,
00:15:38.80\00:15:40.97
then that makes Him impotent.
00:15:41.00\00:15:42.34
And so whether
we're in church culture
00:15:42.37\00:15:44.47
or secular society,
00:15:44.51\00:15:46.07
if we accept that to be a truth,
00:15:46.11\00:15:48.44
then Jesus Christ was no Savior,
00:15:48.48\00:15:50.35
He was nothing more
than just a mortal man.
00:15:50.38\00:15:53.11
So if this is a sin issue,
is that what you're saying?
00:15:53.15\00:15:55.28
Yes, absolutely.
00:15:55.32\00:15:56.65
If it is a sin issue,
then is there a remedy?
00:15:56.69\00:15:58.72
Absolutely, yes.
00:15:58.75\00:16:01.12
You know, while
we were yet sinners,
00:16:01.16\00:16:02.82
Christ died for us.
00:16:02.86\00:16:04.19
Right there let us know that,
00:16:04.23\00:16:05.56
you know, even before we
were able to accept the gift
00:16:05.59\00:16:09.73
or even willing
to accept the gift,
00:16:09.76\00:16:11.33
it was already provided.
00:16:11.37\00:16:12.77
The plan of
salvation was put into place
00:16:12.80\00:16:15.40
even before we were born,
00:16:15.44\00:16:17.14
before the earth
was formed, He knew us
00:16:17.17\00:16:19.01
and He knew the
struggle that I was gonna have.
00:16:19.04\00:16:21.51
You know, I was so angry at
Him as I started coming back
00:16:21.54\00:16:24.18
I said, you know, "Why Lord,
00:16:24.21\00:16:25.91
out of all the
things in this world
00:16:25.95\00:16:27.82
that You would
give me homosexuality
00:16:27.85\00:16:29.52
or allow this
thing to come to me?"
00:16:29.55\00:16:31.52
And I was angry
there for a long time
00:16:31.55\00:16:33.19
that I had to learn
how to surrender my flesh,
00:16:33.22\00:16:35.62
not just every day,
but each and every minute.
00:16:35.66\00:16:38.29
And then I started to recognize
the beauty of God's grace
00:16:38.33\00:16:41.36
because I started to learn
that I didn't have the luxury
00:16:41.40\00:16:45.40
of just surrendering
myself over it at one time
00:16:45.43\00:16:48.20
during the day
that I had to learn
00:16:48.24\00:16:50.21
the quality of
breathing Jesus like air
00:16:50.24\00:16:53.07
and surrendering
every five minutes.
00:16:53.11\00:16:54.64
And now I see the
beauty that I've learned that
00:16:54.68\00:16:57.35
I have to hang on to
Jesus Christ constantly.
00:16:57.38\00:17:01.28
I had to learn that, that
thing in the Bible that says,
00:17:01.32\00:17:03.99
"Pray without ceasing."
00:17:04.02\00:17:06.69
Could it be and
this is just coming to me
00:17:06.72\00:17:08.62
as we're talking and
I'm listening to you here.
00:17:08.66\00:17:11.03
Could it be that God
allowed us to go this route
00:17:11.06\00:17:16.06
because He knew
what we could become?
00:17:16.10\00:17:19.40
In other words
in Jeremiah we read,
00:17:19.43\00:17:21.67
"Before I formed you
in the belly, I knew you."
00:17:21.70\00:17:25.01
That's an intimacy.
00:17:25.04\00:17:26.37
And I have often thought,
00:17:26.41\00:17:27.74
you know, I could
have been a miscarriage.
00:17:27.78\00:17:29.58
God knew what I would become.
00:17:29.61\00:17:32.68
He knew how degraded I would be
that I would go into the world
00:17:32.71\00:17:35.82
with a degree in theology
00:17:35.85\00:17:37.82
and bring such terrible
reproach against His name.
00:17:37.85\00:17:40.69
Why did He allow
me to even be born?
00:17:40.72\00:17:43.39
I could have been a miscarriage,
00:17:43.43\00:17:44.76
I could have been an abortion,
but He said "I knew you."
00:17:44.79\00:17:47.96
What, I guess He
knew what we could become
00:17:48.00\00:17:52.13
if we went
through-- In other words,
00:17:52.17\00:17:54.44
it seems to me,
this is something
00:17:54.47\00:17:56.04
that He allowed to
flop down on our plate
00:17:56.07\00:17:59.51
because He knew
that we could overcome
00:17:59.54\00:18:03.85
and what we could
do with that challenge
00:18:03.88\00:18:06.58
and how it could be a
blessing to others later.
00:18:06.61\00:18:09.28
You know, well, I
have to believe that
00:18:09.32\00:18:11.25
that we were chosen
00:18:11.29\00:18:12.85
and I have said
on the phone to Mike
00:18:12.89\00:18:15.46
before more than once,
00:18:15.49\00:18:18.66
"How many people do you
know in our denomination,
00:18:18.69\00:18:22.63
our individual denomination
00:18:22.66\00:18:25.80
that are standing
up with this message?"
00:18:25.83\00:18:28.47
This message that hasn't
been talked about redemption
00:18:28.50\00:18:31.37
from homosexuality
for 150 years of our--
00:18:31.41\00:18:33.94
in our denomination.
00:18:33.98\00:18:35.81
And Mike's like, "I
don't know any one."
00:18:35.84\00:18:38.81
And I said,
couldn't just that tell you
00:18:38.85\00:18:41.22
what Jesus Christ has seen in us
00:18:41.25\00:18:43.75
that He knew that He
would have a voice through us
00:18:43.79\00:18:46.59
that we are chosen,
00:18:46.62\00:18:48.39
that He has put a
special blessing on us
00:18:48.42\00:18:51.96
to be able to go forth and share
00:18:51.99\00:18:54.36
what the transformation is,
00:18:54.40\00:18:56.23
what is possible
through Jesus Christ
00:18:56.26\00:18:58.17
because He knew
00:18:58.20\00:18:59.53
that through what we
were allowed to go through
00:18:59.57\00:19:01.87
that we would
come through the end
00:19:01.90\00:19:03.41
and that we would believe in Him
00:19:03.44\00:19:04.77
and that we would trust in Him
00:19:04.81\00:19:06.31
and we would not--
00:19:06.34\00:19:07.68
we don't flinch in
the side of society today.
00:19:07.71\00:19:10.48
We fear not
because God is with us.
00:19:10.51\00:19:13.25
You know, Jesus is the one
that's on trial here, not us
00:19:13.28\00:19:17.92
because Jesus is the
one that the whole world,
00:19:17.95\00:19:20.29
the whole universe is looking at
00:19:20.32\00:19:21.89
to see if He is just
00:19:21.92\00:19:23.26
and if He is the
Savior that He says He is.
00:19:23.29\00:19:25.49
And so He wants to
reproduce in His people,
00:19:25.53\00:19:28.76
His same character
00:19:28.80\00:19:30.13
and what testifies
more of God's goodness
00:19:30.17\00:19:33.37
than to be able to
take three loser people
00:19:33.40\00:19:36.40
who were absolutely
trapped in homosexuality
00:19:36.44\00:19:39.21
and pull them out of the gutter,
00:19:39.24\00:19:40.88
restore in them
His beautiful character
00:19:40.91\00:19:43.28
and then set apart
through the time of trouble,
00:19:43.31\00:19:45.61
through the time that
He comes to take us home
00:19:45.65\00:19:47.35
and say, "This is the
power of Jesus Christ."
00:19:47.38\00:19:50.95
This is His redemption.
00:19:50.99\00:19:53.42
Three losers, that's
you and Wayne and who else?
00:19:53.46\00:19:56.76
Are you--
00:19:56.79\00:19:58.13
Well, Ron,
there's more than three,
00:19:58.16\00:19:59.49
there's hundreds,
there's thousands out there
00:19:59.53\00:20:01.76
that don't testify,
but they've experienced
00:20:01.80\00:20:03.93
the same renewing
from Jesus Christ.
00:20:03.97\00:20:05.77
All right, this
leads me to a question.
00:20:05.80\00:20:07.57
If homosexuality is
condemned in the Bible
00:20:07.60\00:20:13.14
as abomination or a
sin issue then, Wayne,
00:20:13.17\00:20:16.85
because I know you're
dying to answer this question.
00:20:16.88\00:20:19.35
Does it really
matter how we ended up
00:20:19.38\00:20:22.78
that way in the first place?
00:20:22.82\00:20:24.62
What is it that really matters
00:20:24.65\00:20:26.25
how we got there or
how we get out of it?
00:20:26.29\00:20:29.92
Well, you know,
what really truly matters
00:20:29.96\00:20:32.23
is our decision,
our daily and moment,
00:20:32.26\00:20:34.63
moment by
decision with Jesus Christ.
00:20:34.66\00:20:37.93
And, you know, He
convicted my heart.
00:20:37.97\00:20:39.87
Once that conviction took place,
00:20:39.90\00:20:42.17
I know that I belong to Him.
00:20:42.20\00:20:44.31
And so, you know, as soon
as that conviction took place,
00:20:44.34\00:20:47.68
I began to see
that there were truths
00:20:47.71\00:20:51.71
that hadn't been uncovered.
00:20:51.75\00:20:55.15
I developed a
passion to want to go out
00:20:55.18\00:20:58.32
and say to our
church leaders, our pastors,
00:20:58.35\00:21:01.76
"I know what it is now."
00:21:01.79\00:21:03.46
I know what it is.
00:21:03.49\00:21:04.83
I know the answer to being able
to come out of that gay life
00:21:04.86\00:21:10.50
and return to a
life in Jesus Christ."
00:21:10.53\00:21:12.70
And all along,
00:21:12.73\00:21:14.07
I thought it had
been this deep dark secret
00:21:14.10\00:21:16.47
and what it was,
00:21:16.50\00:21:18.61
was developing this
intimacy with Jesus Christ
00:21:18.64\00:21:23.01
and little did I know that
00:21:23.04\00:21:24.78
God was gonna turn
around and take that
00:21:24.81\00:21:27.62
and put us in positions
that we could speak to churches
00:21:27.65\00:21:31.12
and congregations
and leadership today
00:21:31.15\00:21:33.15
and have them come to
us afterwards and say,
00:21:33.19\00:21:35.42
you know what, that wasn't
really about homosexuality.
00:21:35.46\00:21:38.96
That really is about
any kind of sin temptation.
00:21:38.99\00:21:42.06
That is really
about involving people
00:21:42.10\00:21:44.20
in getting to know Jesus Christ
in their own personal relation.
00:21:44.23\00:21:47.54
Not so much the relationship
always that's going this way,
00:21:47.57\00:21:50.97
but definitely
the relationship is,
00:21:51.01\00:21:54.71
that is going this
way because in the end,
00:21:54.74\00:21:57.18
it is us before
God and our Maker
00:21:57.21\00:21:59.58
and where He is saying,
00:21:59.61\00:22:00.95
you know, what
was your decision?
00:22:00.98\00:22:02.98
See, we are all a part of that
theater of grace, aren't we?
00:22:03.02\00:22:06.55
We are being used in a way
00:22:06.59\00:22:09.36
along with any
other sinner out there
00:22:09.39\00:22:11.83
that is being drawn to Christ
in living a new life in Christ.
00:22:11.86\00:22:16.46
We too are being used to
demonstrate the power of God
00:22:16.50\00:22:21.50
to save His
people from their sins.
00:22:21.54\00:22:24.17
It is a way of helping
to vindicate God's character
00:22:24.21\00:22:28.24
because He's
accused before the universe
00:22:28.28\00:22:30.75
of being that impotent God
00:22:30.78\00:22:32.71
that can maybe save
this person and that person
00:22:32.75\00:22:34.62
but certainly not
Mike or Wayne or Ron.
00:22:34.65\00:22:39.35
So we are part of
that theater of grace.
00:22:39.39\00:22:42.92
Ron, will you tell the
story of the guy that's,
00:22:42.96\00:22:45.69
you know, in the river drowning.
00:22:45.73\00:22:47.23
I was just going to go
there. Oh, that's my favorite.
00:22:47.26\00:22:48.76
Because, you know,
00:22:48.80\00:22:50.70
if a person is
drowning in the sea,
00:22:50.73\00:22:54.17
doesn't really matter why.
00:22:54.20\00:22:56.07
You know, the
lifeguard comes out in the boat
00:22:56.10\00:22:58.01
and he comes up to the
person glub glubbing in the sea
00:22:58.04\00:23:00.58
and says "How
did you get out here?
00:23:00.61\00:23:03.21
Did you fall in?
00:23:03.24\00:23:04.91
Did you get
caught in a riptide?"
00:23:04.95\00:23:06.61
Were you pushed?
"Did you fall off a boat?
00:23:06.65\00:23:08.32
Did you get pushed in?
00:23:08.35\00:23:09.68
I did that to my brother once.
00:23:09.72\00:23:11.99
You know, what--
how did you get here?"
00:23:12.02\00:23:15.72
And we laugh at
that of course, not.
00:23:15.76\00:23:18.19
What does the lifeguard do?
00:23:18.23\00:23:20.16
He extends the saving hand.
00:23:20.20\00:23:22.40
Isn't Jesus like that?
00:23:22.43\00:23:23.77
Amen. Amen.
00:23:23.80\00:23:25.13
And so to those who
feel that they are born gay
00:23:25.17\00:23:30.31
doesn't Jesus just say,
"Well, I have an answer."
00:23:30.34\00:23:32.81
If you're going to
blame your heredity
00:23:32.84\00:23:35.34
on the choices
that you are making
00:23:35.38\00:23:37.91
to stay in this condition,
00:23:37.95\00:23:40.18
I have a solution.
00:23:40.22\00:23:42.42
Be what?
00:23:42.45\00:23:44.15
If you think-- Be born again.
00:23:44.19\00:23:45.52
There you go. Yes. Yes.
00:23:45.55\00:23:46.89
Then be born again. Amen.
00:23:46.92\00:23:48.26
And if you're born again,
00:23:48.29\00:23:49.69
now you have
God for your father,
00:23:49.72\00:23:51.89
your partaker of divine nature.
00:23:51.93\00:23:55.26
And now who are
you going to blame?
00:23:55.30\00:23:57.10
Yeah.
00:23:57.13\00:23:58.47
And I think
that's a beautiful thing
00:23:58.50\00:24:00.57
that He-- Jesus just has
an answer for every objection.
00:24:00.60\00:24:03.87
I've found as I
listen to certain objections
00:24:03.91\00:24:08.21
to the salvation
for the homosexual.
00:24:08.24\00:24:11.71
I have found
answers from God himself
00:24:11.75\00:24:14.02
for every single
argument out there.
00:24:14.05\00:24:16.92
There comes up a question,
00:24:19.35\00:24:20.82
I read an article once
that was based upon a question
00:24:20.86\00:24:24.56
that is homosexuality
asexual orientation
00:24:24.59\00:24:29.60
or is it a sexual preference?
00:24:29.63\00:24:34.10
Wayne, are you a
taker on that one?
00:24:34.14\00:24:35.47
I would love to address that.
00:24:35.50\00:24:37.07
You know, I
would like to say that,
00:24:37.11\00:24:40.48
you know, God gave sex
00:24:40.51\00:24:42.31
as a gift of
intimacy between Adam and Eve
00:24:42.34\00:24:45.71
that was never meant to be
an identity or an orientation.
00:24:45.75\00:24:49.65
Orientation came
about by the counterfeit.
00:24:49.68\00:24:52.65
You know, by the
enemy taking this thing
00:24:52.69\00:24:55.96
and saying that
sex is our identity.
00:24:55.99\00:24:58.86
I mean, even at one
point it was looked at
00:24:58.89\00:25:00.70
as homosexuality as
being a mental illness.
00:25:00.73\00:25:03.87
And then the psychology,
00:25:03.90\00:25:06.13
not the Bible turned
around and said "Oh, no, no.
00:25:06.17\00:25:08.60
It's not a disturbance.
00:25:08.64\00:25:09.97
It's not an illness,
00:25:10.01\00:25:12.67
but it's
actually an orientation.
00:25:12.71\00:25:14.51
That came about in our culture.
00:25:14.54\00:25:16.54
That's in the Bible
00:25:16.58\00:25:17.95
you look and you
read throughout the Bible,
00:25:17.98\00:25:20.08
there are two orientations,
00:25:20.12\00:25:21.55
either you're
oriented to Jesus and the cross
00:25:21.58\00:25:24.69
or you're oriented to the world.
00:25:24.72\00:25:27.29
Very good.
00:25:27.32\00:25:28.86
Mike?
00:25:28.89\00:25:30.83
You know, I didn't even
understand the nuances of that
00:25:30.86\00:25:35.60
but I knew that
if Jesus said that,
00:25:35.63\00:25:37.77
that I wasn't
allowed to have it.
00:25:37.80\00:25:40.44
For me, it had
to be very simple.
00:25:40.47\00:25:42.57
He either had the
answer or He didn't.
00:25:42.60\00:25:44.84
And as I followed him,
00:25:44.87\00:25:46.27
I didn't have to
choose to be straight.
00:25:46.31\00:25:48.24
I just chose Jesus Christ
00:25:48.28\00:25:49.61
and He was the one that
brought those feelings in
00:25:49.64\00:25:52.55
and took out the old feelings
that weren't acceptable.
00:25:52.58\00:25:55.18
So I think we can
summarize here that,
00:25:55.22\00:25:58.19
you know, we've
talked about being,
00:25:58.22\00:26:00.26
excuse me, being born
gay, being born straight,
00:26:00.29\00:26:04.23
and the acceptable
alternative lifestyle
00:26:04.26\00:26:10.53
and that it
really doesn't matter.
00:26:10.57\00:26:12.90
Because, you know, as I
searched through the Bible
00:26:12.93\00:26:14.90
I don't really find
Jesus interrogating people
00:26:14.94\00:26:18.47
as to why they are
whatever sinner they are.
00:26:18.51\00:26:21.71
He knows.
00:26:21.74\00:26:23.08
Just to Mary, "I
don't condemn you
00:26:23.11\00:26:25.08
and I'm not going to ask
you why you're doing this."
00:26:25.11\00:26:28.48
Sin is a mystery, isn't it?
00:26:28.52\00:26:30.55
I mean, can it be explained?
00:26:30.59\00:26:32.12
Can it really be excused?
00:26:32.15\00:26:33.79
No.
00:26:33.82\00:26:35.16
He offers the solution.
00:26:35.19\00:26:37.03
And so I just love that thought
00:26:37.06\00:26:39.83
when we think we are
born gay or born this way
00:26:39.86\00:26:43.43
that Jesus simply
says "Well, let's just--
00:26:43.47\00:26:45.97
why don't you
just be born again?
00:26:46.00\00:26:47.84
Let's start over.
00:26:47.87\00:26:49.20
Start over with a clean slate."
00:26:49.24\00:26:51.37
Wash away the past.
00:26:51.41\00:26:52.74
That's right. Yeah.
00:26:52.77\00:26:54.11
And then to
answer that question,
00:26:54.14\00:26:55.74
is homosexuality
a sexual preference
00:26:55.78\00:26:59.35
or sexual orientation?
00:26:59.38\00:27:01.42
The very word orientation
in the dictionary indicates
00:27:01.45\00:27:04.79
there's choice involved
and if there's choice involved,
00:27:04.82\00:27:09.69
there's also the
word in the dictionary
00:27:09.72\00:27:11.39
for reorientation
00:27:11.43\00:27:12.79
which is certainly about
choice and being redirected.
00:27:12.83\00:27:17.07
And so we come to the question
if we look at it carefully,
00:27:17.10\00:27:20.27
"Is it a sexual orientation
or a sexual preference?"
00:27:20.30\00:27:25.01
I would say in
light of the gospel,
00:27:25.04\00:27:26.78
if you know there's a way
out that God says be born again,
00:27:26.81\00:27:31.55
then it becomes a
choice, doesn't it,
00:27:31.58\00:27:33.62
where you may have
thought it was your orientation
00:27:33.65\00:27:35.82
and you're locked
in all of your life.
00:27:35.85\00:27:38.15
In the end it does come
down to a choice, a preference.
00:27:38.19\00:27:42.46
In the light of the gospel,
00:27:42.49\00:27:44.09
homosexuality would
be a sexual preference.
00:27:44.13\00:27:48.66
We thank you for
tuning into Pure Choices today
00:27:48.70\00:27:52.83
and hope that you will continue
making those pure choices
00:27:52.87\00:27:55.80
in your daily walk.
00:27:55.84\00:27:57.17