The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Welcome to "Pure Choices."
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I'm Wayne Blakely
from Coming Out Ministries.
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And today my
guest is Ron Woolsley,
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a ministry colleague of
mine in Coming Out Ministries.
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Welcome, Ron. Thank you.
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Ron, recently I was sharing
a presentation at a church
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and a gentleman
came to me with question
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that I thought was interesting
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that someone from the
church was beginning to ask.
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And he said, you know,
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"Wayne, how did
gays gain so much power?"
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And I said, "Well, I'm not sure
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that you're going
to like my response,
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but I'll be happy to
share that with you."
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And I said, you know,
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"Over the years in
church culture, in society,
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many people have
lived secretly with desires
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that they dare not
share with the church.
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And you know
they, they stuff it.
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They keep stuffing these
emotions and these desires
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because they don't feel like
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they can share
them openly with anyone.
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And long about the
ages of 18 or 19 or 20,
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they finally
say, 'you know what,
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I'm out of here.'
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Because the
driving forces of nature
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and of deception
have finally worn out
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and they exit the church doors
and many of them never return."
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So I said to him, you
know, these are people today
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that are sitting
in positions of power
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who have left the
church and have decided
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that God doesn't hold
the answers for them anymore
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and they entered
into a simple scene
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and often have been arbitrating
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for gay rights
and for legislation.
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And we're seeing more and more
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things that are
being put into a lot today
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that are specifically put their,
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that might in essence
really already be there
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as for protection of hate crimes
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or things that are happening
to individuals at large,
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but specifically, the
gay community has come in
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to make sure that
the wording has to do
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with gays in particular.
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So it's a
specific, a special right
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for a special individual people,
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specifically gays.
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So I wanted to ask you a
little bit about that today,
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about the special
laws that are being passed
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and we're seeing this
in the headlines today,
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almost everyday.
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What about the church?
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What is the
churches' role in all of this?
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Well, the
churches' role in the laws
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or how the church
has been affected, or?
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How it's been affected?
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How the church should respond?
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And also, how, this is
kind of a multi-parted,
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but we want to cover
in today's discussion.
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What could the
church be doing to maintain,
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someone to keep them
within inside the church family,
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rather than ostracizing them
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and having them
end up in civil society
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and seeking to get rights
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that are more
of a secular nature
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than what God would have for us?
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Well, of course, the
church needs to be reaching out
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to the gay community
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or as we identify that
issue within our church
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and we don't shove it
aside, we don't hide from it,
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we address it,
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we in a loving
way show these people
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that they too are
recipients of God's grace,
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His love, and our
candidates for conversion.
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Would you say that the
church has been a bit inept
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in their, not
knowing how to reach out
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that there's
been lack of education
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and that there
are bigger efforts
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that are moving in
to seek to normalize
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the, the gay
presence and gay rights
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actually within
the church itself?
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Well, I think so.
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It's quite evident to me
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and I think to
you having been there,
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that as the
church has been unable
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to successfully
deal with the issue,
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there's a very
orchestrated effort
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as in the world.
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There's a very
orchestrated effort
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to bring
acceptance into the church.
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And if the church doesn't
have answers for the gay issue,
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then they are almost powerless
to stop the pro-gay influences
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that are coming into the church.
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We have some
pretty hard evidence
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of some of these
efforts that have been made
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towards the church in
kind of laying the ground work.
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I mean there's even a
couple of denominations
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that I've been familiar
with that have incorporated,
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you know, well, we have,
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you know, things
that have been passed now
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as gays marriage,
and there's gays clergy,
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there's a little differentiation
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between someone today who
is, who has made a decision
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to be a pastor
regardless of what,
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whether they are
heterosexual or homosexual.
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There has been some
particular petitions
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that I think
that you are aware of
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and wanted to
share with us today.
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Can you share
one of those with us?
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Yes, actually
there are three examples
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of this pro-gay effort within,
not just our denomination,
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but I mean, the
pro-gay effort is,
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it's an effort that prevails
every echelon of society.
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But within our own denomination,
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I'm very aware of
three particular examples.
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And if I could
just share some snippets
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from each one of the--
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It's a given
idea what we're facing
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because we as
Christians need to be aware
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of this very aggressive effort
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to promote
acceptance of homosexuality
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within the church.
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I was at a convention
at one point and was left.
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There was a
flier left at my booth
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where I'm of
course, trying to network
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with people showing resources
for overcoming homosexuality.
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And then I come
back from a little break
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and there's a flier on my booth,
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it's called "Come As You Are."
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And I thought well,
this is interesting.
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And so I picked it up
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and the inside
cover reads like this.
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"You are loved,"
emphasis in the typing.
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"You are loved.
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Gay Christians are wholly
loved and accepted by God."
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And I thought
about that and I said,
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well, that's partly
true, but not completely true.
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And you can,
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a little truth mixed with
error can be very dangerous.
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Yes, it can.
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And the reason I say
this is because, for example,
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I used to be a bartender
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and as a bartender
I had regular clients
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that would come in and,
and I knew their drinks.
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And they would come
in and ask for the usual.
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Well, some of my
clients would come in
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and they would want
their, their liquor straight up.
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I mean, just straight
alcohol in a little glass.
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Someone else would
want it on the rocks,
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a little ice and
that's a little diluted.
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Someone else what's there liquor
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with a little water,
that's a little more diluted.
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But very popular drinks
are those called mixed drinks
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in which there's a lot of good
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and we always
hear that argument.
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There's a lot of good in that.
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Well, there
would be, for example,
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a tall glass of orange juice
and a short of vodka, right.
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A lot of good in that drink,
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but I'll tell you by
the end of the night,
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those drinking the mixed
drinks were just as drunk
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as those who are
having it straight up.
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They went to the rest
room a lot more often,
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but they were just as drunk.
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And so to me it's
important to realize
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Satan is a master bartender.
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He knows how much error
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we will take with
our lot of good or truth.
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And so in this statement, I
see that very subtle working.
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You are loved.
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Gay Christians are wholly loved.
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True.
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And accepted implied
wholly accepted by God.
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Not true.
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Now they are
accepted if they are coming
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into the school of discipleship
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and are wiling to
be transformed, yes.
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But they are not
accepted without being wholly,
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entirely
submitted to that process.
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So here this flier
is being circulated
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to promote the idea that,
that homosexuals should be
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allowed
completely into the church
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without transformation.
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And later on in this
flier, the pamphlet stated
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that the Bible never
even mentions homosexuality
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or sexual orientation.
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Well, they were
quoting from the NIV
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and I was using
the King James Bible.
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So I just went to the NIV
which they were quoting from
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in the opening statement about
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"Come unto me,
all ye that labor."
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And there the text of scripture
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that we use in Leviticus
and Romans and all of that.
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And the King James it
doesn't say homosexual,
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it just describes the behavior.
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But in the NIV it uses
the words homosexuality
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and homosexual, so
it's very specific.
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But here again,
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the effort is to try
to put forth the position
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that God doesn't
mentioned homosexuality,
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so therefore, it's okay.
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But God also knows
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that we can mess
around with labels
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and terms and
definitions and so in the Bible
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He just spells out the behavior.
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There is no way to miss
what He's talking about.
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And, anyway, this, this
flier was being circulated
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quite heavily
within this convention,
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which is a worldwide
convention for our denomination.
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Right.
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Then there are several petitions
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that have also gone around.
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This one was prior to
another worldwide convention
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and the effort is to
try to get the church
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to change its
position on homosexuality
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rather than
assist the homosexual
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in changing his
behavior to become like Christ.
00:10:57.19\00:11:00.82
It's an opposite approach
and if I could just share
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just a few thoughts
from here that show--
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And what we're trying
to show here is the effort,
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this steady, concentrated effort
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to infringe upon the
church to baptize perversion.
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One of all the distinctives,
their, their petition says
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this, it opens this way.
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Of all the distinctives
that might define Christians,
00:11:26.31\00:11:29.75
Jesus identified only one thing
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that will
distinguish His followers.
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I had trouble right there.
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Does only God
only give one thing?
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No.
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And then they quote John 13.
00:11:39.83\00:11:41.93
A new command I give
you, love one another.
00:11:41.96\00:11:46.37
And so they are using
the text love one another
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to condone perversion.
00:11:49.74\00:11:52.91
But I don't think Jesus
is telling us when He saying
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"Love one another
as I have loved you"
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to go sleep with
anybody you want to
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as many partners as you want
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and of the same sex as
well as the opposite sex.
00:12:03.99\00:12:07.82
I was quite shocked to see
00:12:07.86\00:12:09.62
the word of God
used in such a way
00:12:09.66\00:12:12.36
when the love that
Jesus is talking about
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is a high, holy, agape love
00:12:15.06\00:12:17.83
and they turn it
around, at least the appearances
00:12:17.87\00:12:20.94
to mean a perverted
sensual type of love.
00:12:20.97\00:12:26.37
And that was the
opening statement.
00:12:26.41\00:12:30.01
You know, I would like to
interject here a little bit
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about some of the
media that's out there today,
00:12:33.21\00:12:37.82
the gay themed
media that's been put
00:12:37.85\00:12:40.19
in front of families, you know,
everywhere to take a look at.
00:12:40.22\00:12:46.09
There are different campaigns
out there today that say
00:12:46.13\00:12:49.73
"Hey, you know,
this is who I am,
00:12:49.76\00:12:51.37
accept me just the way I
am" with really very little
00:12:51.40\00:12:55.10
or no reference
to the word of God.
00:12:55.14\00:12:57.17
And I recently previewed
a film where that had a,
00:12:57.21\00:13:01.08
it's great focus
was on this idea of,
00:13:01.11\00:13:05.08
to love one another.
00:13:05.11\00:13:06.88
And while I think
that's so important,
00:13:06.92\00:13:09.35
I think that is important
00:13:09.38\00:13:10.72
that we don't forget
what kind of love that is.
00:13:10.75\00:13:14.36
You know, Jesus' love,
it can be very different
00:13:14.39\00:13:16.89
from that of a
fleshly love or worldly love.
00:13:16.93\00:13:20.03
And as I viewed this
particular piece of media,
00:13:20.06\00:13:24.60
you know, various
homosexual couples
00:13:24.63\00:13:27.00
had come together who
said that there was, you know,
00:13:27.04\00:13:30.21
that there's nothing they can do
00:13:30.24\00:13:32.21
about how they
are or who they are.
00:13:32.24\00:13:34.64
And that, the only
options available to them
00:13:34.68\00:13:38.35
were to be either
heterosexual or celibate
00:13:38.38\00:13:41.98
and that, that wasn't something
00:13:42.02\00:13:43.79
that they felt that
God was directing them.
00:13:43.82\00:13:47.09
And I begin to think,
well, sometimes the things that,
00:13:47.12\00:13:50.93
that, if we doesn't feel
like something we want to do,
00:13:50.96\00:13:55.10
we might say that
it's not what God intended.
00:13:55.13\00:13:57.63
When God in essence
has really directing us
00:13:57.67\00:14:00.10
through His word about
whether we're homosexual
00:14:00.14\00:14:04.37
or whether we're
same sex attracted
00:14:04.41\00:14:06.11
or, or single heterosexual.
00:14:06.14\00:14:10.55
God does call us
to moral behavior
00:14:10.58\00:14:14.38
which is intimacy
between a man and a woman
00:14:14.42\00:14:17.19
only after marriage
00:14:17.22\00:14:18.75
and that's all I've actually
been able to find in His word.
00:14:18.79\00:14:22.36
So it's interesting to
me and these were the things
00:14:22.39\00:14:24.43
that I considered in
my walk back with Christ
00:14:24.46\00:14:26.86
because, you know,
I would have wanted
00:14:26.90\00:14:28.93
to keep my same sex partner.
00:14:28.96\00:14:31.63
I would have wanted to
look for a same sex person
00:14:31.67\00:14:36.37
to marry if I had some kind
of iconic ideology in God's word
00:14:36.40\00:14:42.54
that which show me
00:14:42.58\00:14:43.91
that this was
according to God's plan,
00:14:43.95\00:14:45.75
but I haven't been able to find
00:14:45.78\00:14:47.25
and I haven't
had anyone who's on,
00:14:47.28\00:14:50.05
who has the agenda
that you are referring to,
00:14:50.09\00:14:52.75
to be able to tell me
00:14:52.79\00:14:54.66
that there is such
a proof in God's word.
00:14:54.69\00:14:57.33
In fact, I
asked someone recently
00:14:57.36\00:14:59.89
who was very pro-gay
00:14:59.93\00:15:02.03
and trying to ground
herself in the spiritual realm.
00:15:02.06\00:15:06.94
She kept saying to me, you know,
00:15:06.97\00:15:08.30
"Well, Wayne, you
know, you needed a redeemer
00:15:08.34\00:15:10.17
because you had a
life of promiscuity,
00:15:10.21\00:15:13.07
where I am representing people
00:15:13.11\00:15:15.01
who are of a same sex
monogamous relationship."
00:15:15.04\00:15:19.45
And I said, "Okay, fine,
yes, I did need a redeemer.
00:15:19.48\00:15:23.08
Can you give me the evidence
and the proof in God's word
00:15:23.12\00:15:26.52
that He does approve
00:15:26.55\00:15:28.12
of a same sex
monogamous relationship
00:15:28.16\00:15:30.39
because I've been
searching the word everywhere
00:15:30.43\00:15:33.19
for such a statement, you know,
00:15:33.23\00:15:34.63
because I could, I could
live with my feelings that way."
00:15:34.66\00:15:37.70
And she
responded and finally said
00:15:37.73\00:15:39.57
"You won't find
it in God's word."
00:15:39.60\00:15:41.27
Well, see that's the
whole problem, Wayne,
00:15:41.30\00:15:43.24
in the film that
you're talking about.
00:15:43.27\00:15:47.34
My understanding is and
I've seen trailers of it,
00:15:47.38\00:15:50.15
I've not seen the whole film.
00:15:50.18\00:15:51.98
But the focus is
upon the feelings
00:15:52.01\00:15:54.22
and the emotions of the people,
00:15:54.25\00:15:57.29
not the feelings
and emotions of God
00:15:57.32\00:15:59.85
and the Creator.
00:15:59.89\00:16:01.22
And there are not
references to scripture
00:16:01.26\00:16:03.96
that backup their
feelings and emotions.
00:16:03.99\00:16:07.13
It's all about
sympathy and empathy.
00:16:07.16\00:16:10.03
And, but where is our
sympathy for our Creator
00:16:10.07\00:16:14.00
and His broken heart
00:16:14.04\00:16:15.70
and His son that
was hanging on the cross
00:16:15.74\00:16:17.77
because of our giving
into our feelings and emotions?
00:16:17.81\00:16:21.71
And I think
that's a big problem.
00:16:21.74\00:16:24.38
You know, another
thing that comes out
00:16:24.41\00:16:27.08
of this first petition
here is that they referred to--
00:16:27.12\00:16:34.62
Their understanding
that we as a church
00:16:34.66\00:16:37.83
have fallen
short of Jesus' vision
00:16:37.86\00:16:40.76
with respect to our lesbian
and gay sisters and brothers.
00:16:40.80\00:16:45.47
And they say here we
confess that as a church,
00:16:45.50\00:16:48.10
we have failed to
demonstrate Jesus love
00:16:48.14\00:16:50.54
in our interactions
with the LGBTI members
00:16:50.57\00:16:53.34
of our community.
00:16:53.38\00:16:54.71
Well, thanks,
Ron. What is LGBTI?
00:16:54.74\00:16:57.85
Well, that's a good question.
00:16:57.88\00:16:59.21
I had to kind of
research that myself.
00:16:59.25\00:17:02.15
It used to be, Wayne,
that the homosexual community
00:17:02.18\00:17:06.35
wanted to be tolerated
and accepted as homosexuals.
00:17:06.39\00:17:10.29
As this movement has grown,
00:17:10.33\00:17:12.39
it has gone from homosexuals
to gays and lesbians.
00:17:12.43\00:17:17.30
L, G, lesbians and Gay.
00:17:17.33\00:17:20.00
Now it has grown to
include B, bisexuals.
00:17:20.04\00:17:24.11
It has-- The tent has enlarged
00:17:24.14\00:17:26.14
to include
transgenders, that's the T.
00:17:26.17\00:17:29.54
And I, that was
a new one for me,
00:17:29.58\00:17:31.51
but that's intersex,
00:17:31.55\00:17:33.62
people who are
born with both male
00:17:33.65\00:17:37.59
and females organs and so forth.
00:17:37.62\00:17:39.72
And my immediate question is,
00:17:39.75\00:17:43.26
"What's going to stop
this list from growing?"
00:17:43.29\00:17:46.06
You know, once we
uproot God's protective hedge,
00:17:46.09\00:17:50.80
His law, His fence,
"Where do we put it down?"
00:17:50.83\00:17:54.40
And I can see right
here that this effort
00:17:54.44\00:17:57.17
is including more and
more sexual perversions.
00:17:57.21\00:18:00.98
So if we normalize
all of these things
00:18:01.01\00:18:03.85
and it looks like
there is a progression.
00:18:03.88\00:18:06.85
What would be next?
00:18:06.88\00:18:08.22
If everything is
put in place civilly
00:18:08.25\00:18:11.29
to protect gays and
lesbians and transgendered
00:18:11.32\00:18:15.62
and intrasexual
and so, you know,
00:18:15.66\00:18:18.16
for the sake of
political efforts
00:18:18.19\00:18:19.66
and for the rights of people
00:18:19.69\00:18:21.56
who feel like they are minority,
00:18:21.60\00:18:22.93
what would be next?
00:18:22.96\00:18:24.30
Well, the next thing
is already in the works,
00:18:24.33\00:18:26.03
its polygamy.
00:18:26.07\00:18:27.44
Well, why not?
00:18:27.47\00:18:28.80
We see polygamy in the
Bible among God's chosen people.
00:18:28.84\00:18:33.61
Not that God condoned it,
00:18:33.64\00:18:35.91
but He never
called it abomination.
00:18:35.94\00:18:39.38
So there are already efforts.
00:18:39.41\00:18:41.65
And now please don't
think I'm promoting polygamy.
00:18:41.68\00:18:44.59
But I'm just saying
00:18:44.62\00:18:45.95
if you're going
to enlarge the tent,
00:18:45.99\00:18:47.39
polygamy would be
next I would think
00:18:47.42\00:18:49.52
and we see
these efforts already.
00:18:49.56\00:18:51.29
Then what about this
"Man-Boy Love Association?"
00:18:51.33\00:18:55.13
There are efforts to
get that legalized now,
00:18:55.16\00:18:56.97
which is pedophilia.
00:18:57.00\00:19:00.10
Then what about bestiality?
00:19:00.14\00:19:01.60
Now where does it stop?
00:19:01.64\00:19:03.71
Once we start embracing
these different deviations.
00:19:03.74\00:19:07.58
You know, people don't
see this as a real issue
00:19:07.61\00:19:10.15
when they first hear that.
00:19:10.18\00:19:11.51
They see that as, oh, come
on, that's an impossibility.
00:19:11.55\00:19:14.68
But you know, if 50 years
ago, where it would have stated
00:19:14.72\00:19:19.92
that gay and
lesbian love and partners
00:19:19.95\00:19:23.29
and the marriage of same
sex people were possible,
00:19:23.32\00:19:26.33
I would have never
dream that possible,
00:19:26.36\00:19:28.03
certainly not in my lifetime.
00:19:28.06\00:19:29.73
I would have actually
thought that Jesus would come
00:19:29.76\00:19:31.83
before that
would actually happen.
00:19:31.87\00:19:33.97
But we're reminded that
00:19:34.00\00:19:36.37
just as there was
destruction in the past,
00:19:36.40\00:19:38.87
that there will
be destruction again
00:19:38.91\00:19:40.68
due to the
condition of the world.
00:19:40.71\00:19:42.98
Fifty years ago the effort
was to just being tolerated,
00:19:43.01\00:19:46.82
to stop persecuting us.
00:19:46.85\00:19:48.88
Now it's gone from
toleration to celebration,
00:19:48.92\00:19:52.82
to legislation, to promotion
00:19:52.85\00:19:55.46
and privilege, status
and all of these things.
00:19:55.49\00:19:58.66
And so we see that
there's really never
00:19:58.69\00:20:01.60
going to be an end.
00:20:01.63\00:20:02.96
When a, when an
issue is focused upon self,
00:20:03.00\00:20:06.70
self gratification, self glory,
00:20:06.74\00:20:09.10
there's never
total satisfaction.
00:20:09.14\00:20:12.07
In the common denominator
seems to coming back in this
00:20:12.11\00:20:15.91
is the sympathy factor.
00:20:15.94\00:20:18.35
Because if we can show the pain,
00:20:18.38\00:20:21.05
the hurt, the isolation,
the rejection, that somehow
00:20:21.08\00:20:25.59
and I'm finding this in
our church culture today
00:20:25.62\00:20:28.19
is that well, we have the need
00:20:28.22\00:20:31.43
and we want to keep
in our lives those people
00:20:31.46\00:20:34.46
that we love that
somehow were compromising truth
00:20:34.50\00:20:39.20
just to say that we love
them or putting an approval
00:20:39.23\00:20:42.67
on the behavior by
saying that we love them.
00:20:42.70\00:20:46.11
And I think
that God has shown us
00:20:46.14\00:20:48.68
that He loves us
while we are still sinners,
00:20:48.71\00:20:52.15
but He doesn't want to
leave us in that condition,
00:20:52.18\00:20:54.25
He's looking for
us to make decisions
00:20:54.28\00:20:56.69
for His pureness, for His glory
00:20:56.72\00:20:58.85
and for doing things
His way instead of our way.
00:20:58.89\00:21:01.56
It was actually
someone who said,
00:21:01.59\00:21:04.76
"Uh, I have a better
way who God loved dearly,
00:21:04.79\00:21:09.43
who ended up getting
himself cast out of heaven."
00:21:09.46\00:21:12.07
Right.
00:21:12.10\00:21:13.44
And in this petition
there are certain demands
00:21:13.47\00:21:16.81
that are being
imposed upon the church.
00:21:16.84\00:21:19.07
And because in the interest
of time I'll just kind of list
00:21:19.11\00:21:21.98
the, the list of
demands that are being made here
00:21:22.01\00:21:26.51
because it's
really quite surprising.
00:21:26.55\00:21:30.49
They call upon,
in our denomination,
00:21:30.52\00:21:32.85
to extend the love in grace
of Jesus to the homosexual.
00:21:32.89\00:21:36.16
Of course, grace is not defined,
00:21:36.19\00:21:38.33
but in the Greek dictionary
grace is the divine influence
00:21:38.36\00:21:41.16
working upon the heart
reflecting in the life.
00:21:41.20\00:21:44.13
So if we are extending love
and grace to the homosexual,
00:21:44.17\00:21:47.37
we're extending a message
of transformation of character.
00:21:47.40\00:21:50.74
They are calling for grace
00:21:50.77\00:21:52.11
but not in the way
that it is really defined.
00:21:52.14\00:21:55.41
But then they
call for acknowledging
00:21:55.44\00:21:57.95
that homosexual orientation
is determined before birth,
00:21:57.98\00:22:01.98
but that's a scientific
controversy right now.
00:22:02.02\00:22:05.32
That has not been determined.
00:22:05.35\00:22:08.19
Then number two, to
eject as a form of violence,
00:22:08.22\00:22:11.79
any programs
that attempt to change
00:22:11.83\00:22:13.96
or redirect one
sexual orientation.
00:22:14.00\00:22:16.70
Now that troubles me
because I'm a pastor,
00:22:16.73\00:22:19.70
I'm an
evangelist, I'm a counselor.
00:22:19.73\00:22:23.17
My role is to
help people change.
00:22:23.20\00:22:28.28
In evangelism, we
are helping people come
00:22:28.31\00:22:31.58
from outside the
law to inside the law
00:22:31.61\00:22:35.72
and they are calling for
our denomination to accept
00:22:35.75\00:22:38.82
my role as an act of violence.
00:22:38.85\00:22:41.69
I think that's
very shocking to see
00:22:41.72\00:22:44.09
that to help
someone who is in need
00:22:44.13\00:22:46.83
is now called
an act of violence.
00:22:46.86\00:22:49.66
Number three, to act
deliberately and decisively
00:22:49.70\00:22:51.97
to prevent judgmental
and condemning attitudes
00:22:52.00\00:22:55.04
towards homosexuals.
00:22:55.07\00:22:57.04
Number four, providing
00:22:57.07\00:22:59.04
homosexual sisters and brothers,
00:22:59.07\00:23:01.31
not only a place in our pews
00:23:01.34\00:23:03.41
but also a space
on our platforms,
00:23:03.45\00:23:07.68
allowing all of the gifts
00:23:07.72\00:23:09.18
God has given them to be
used to honor and serve God.
00:23:09.22\00:23:13.29
So yes, they may
be very gifted people,
00:23:13.32\00:23:15.79
but are these gifts being used
truly to honor and serve God?
00:23:15.82\00:23:20.16
But they are making that demand.
00:23:20.20\00:23:21.53
And then number five,
fully integrating lesbian, gay,
00:23:21.56\00:23:26.67
bisexual, transgender,
00:23:26.70\00:23:28.80
and intersex
members of the church
00:23:28.84\00:23:31.04
into the life of
the church community.
00:23:31.07\00:23:34.14
So they are asking
for full integration,
00:23:34.18\00:23:37.35
that means
accepting gay marriage,
00:23:37.38\00:23:40.55
accepting
homosexuality and membership.
00:23:40.58\00:23:44.25
Membership is sacred.
Worship is for anyone.
00:23:44.29\00:23:49.06
Our doors should
be open for anyone,
00:23:49.09\00:23:50.79
but membership is sacred
00:23:50.83\00:23:52.16
because
membership allows a voice,
00:23:52.19\00:23:55.16
a deciding voice and a vote.
00:23:55.20\00:23:57.63
And they are
calling for full integration
00:23:57.67\00:23:59.47
with the right to voice,
to vote, and if you can vote,
00:23:59.50\00:24:02.60
you can also be put into office,
00:24:02.64\00:24:04.64
which would mean they
could be church leaders,
00:24:04.67\00:24:07.28
church pastors, church
bishops and all of these things.
00:24:07.31\00:24:10.78
And all of these demands
00:24:10.81\00:24:14.32
go directly against
what we believe biblically.
00:24:14.35\00:24:18.42
And the point that strikes
me so in all of these is that,
00:24:18.45\00:24:22.99
it's not based
upon any word of God,
00:24:23.02\00:24:25.69
no text of
scripture but how we feel.
00:24:25.73\00:24:29.66
We feel that
this is what we need.
00:24:29.70\00:24:32.27
Ron, you know, this is
just really brought to mind
00:24:32.30\00:24:37.04
a passage in Galatians
00:24:37.07\00:24:39.71
that I think you
probably familiar with that.
00:24:39.74\00:24:41.74
Paul wrote as a
warning to people
00:24:41.78\00:24:45.25
to not listen to the
voice of a different gospel
00:24:45.28\00:24:50.09
and that if you're hearing
the voice of a different gospel
00:24:50.12\00:24:54.06
that let them-- He
says, let them be condemned
00:24:54.09\00:24:57.96
because this is not the gospel,
00:24:57.99\00:24:59.89
this is not the
original gospel of Jesus Christ.
00:24:59.93\00:25:02.80
And, Wayne, we have to go back
to asking, "How does God feel?"
00:25:02.83\00:25:06.10
These petitions are
talking about how we feel.
00:25:06.13\00:25:09.57
I say we. Right.
00:25:09.60\00:25:10.94
But how does God feel?
00:25:10.97\00:25:13.04
What are His
thoughts on this matter?
00:25:13.07\00:25:14.84
If we're talking about
integrating a Christian church,
00:25:14.88\00:25:18.08
should we not look at
the Christian principles
00:25:18.11\00:25:20.35
in the word of God?
00:25:20.38\00:25:21.72
Can I just share
with you very quickly
00:25:21.75\00:25:23.45
what God says
about how He feels?
00:25:23.49\00:25:26.29
Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is
deceitful above all things,"
00:25:26.32\00:25:31.19
That's talking about us.
We can't trust our feelings.
00:25:31.23\00:25:34.16
"And desperately
wicked: who can know it?"
00:25:34.20\00:25:37.40
And then He answers, said,
"I the Lord search the heart,
00:25:37.43\00:25:41.57
I try the reins,
00:25:41.60\00:25:42.94
even to give every
man according to his ways,
00:25:42.97\00:25:44.37
and according to the
fruit of his doings."
00:25:44.41\00:25:46.98
And so God knows our
thoughts, our feelings,
00:25:47.01\00:25:50.15
our emotions and He says,
00:25:50.18\00:25:51.75
"you don't even know
how wicked your thoughts are
00:25:51.78\00:25:54.85
if they are not
in tune with Mine."
00:25:54.88\00:25:57.05
And then in Isaiah 55:9
00:25:57.09\00:26:00.56
"For as the heavens
are higher than the earth,
00:26:00.59\00:26:03.39
so are my ways
higher than your ways,
00:26:03.43\00:26:06.53
and my thoughts
than your thoughts."
00:26:06.56\00:26:09.46
So as Christians, should
we not submit every thought,
00:26:09.50\00:26:13.74
every petition, every demand
00:26:13.77\00:26:16.74
to the thoughts and
feelings of our Creator
00:26:16.77\00:26:19.07
who we're coming to
worship in the first place?"
00:26:19.11\00:26:20.98
Right. Absolutely.
00:26:21.01\00:26:23.18
And, you know, I
think it's important
00:26:23.21\00:26:24.88
that we not, let the pendulum
swing the opposite direction
00:26:24.91\00:26:28.78
and just put
everything all in one basket
00:26:28.82\00:26:30.79
because it's so
important that we recognize
00:26:30.82\00:26:33.76
that God is
calling us to embrace
00:26:33.79\00:26:37.99
and to show love to the sinner,
00:26:38.03\00:26:40.96
but to recognize the
sin and helping that person
00:26:41.00\00:26:44.93
find their way to Jesus Christ,
00:26:44.97\00:26:47.54
identifying the sin,
00:26:47.57\00:26:50.11
supporting what the individual
00:26:50.14\00:26:53.98
and what that
self denial looks like.
00:26:54.01\00:26:55.88
They are giving up
00:26:55.91\00:26:57.25
and they are giving over of self
00:26:57.28\00:26:58.61
and they are not isolating them,
00:26:58.65\00:27:00.38
but embracing them,
giving them things to do
00:27:00.42\00:27:03.72
to stay involved
in a church community,
00:27:03.75\00:27:06.45
bringing them to the
Savior and helping them
00:27:06.49\00:27:10.09
want to repent, to
want to be baptized,
00:27:10.13\00:27:14.46
to become a new
creation in Jesus Christ
00:27:14.50\00:27:17.70
and recognize that
God is a God of change
00:27:17.73\00:27:21.24
that can bring this change
00:27:21.27\00:27:22.60
and bring this new
creation to our lives.
00:27:22.64\00:27:26.21
Amen. Yeah.
00:27:26.24\00:27:27.61
That's, that's
what it's all about.
00:27:27.64\00:27:29.24
It's
transformation of character.
00:27:29.28\00:27:31.51
All people coming to worship God
00:27:31.55\00:27:33.78
should be coming
to become like Him,
00:27:33.82\00:27:36.99
to be changed, not to
bring their garbage in,
00:27:37.02\00:27:40.29
let's say leave it at the door.
00:27:40.32\00:27:41.66
Right.
00:27:41.69\00:27:43.02
I'm Wayne Blakely
on "Pure Choices."
00:27:43.06\00:27:44.39
Thank you so much
00:27:44.43\00:27:45.76
for joining us for
this conversation today.
00:27:45.79\00:27:48.33
And I hope that you
will continue to tune in.
00:27:48.36\00:27:50.77
Thank you. God bless you.
00:27:50.80\00:27:52.47