The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
00:00:01.36\00:00:03.43
Parents are
cautioned that some material
00:00:03.47\00:00:05.23
may be too candid
for younger children.
00:00:05.27\00:00:07.40
I'm Wayne Blakely
from Coming Out Ministries,
00:00:41.74\00:00:44.57
your host today on Pure Choices.
00:00:44.61\00:00:47.34
Today, I have
with me Ron Woolsey
00:00:47.38\00:00:49.68
who is a colleague of
mine in this ministry.
00:00:49.71\00:00:52.65
And today, Ron,
we're gonna talk about
00:00:52.68\00:00:55.52
what is happening
globally across our world
00:00:55.55\00:00:59.15
with the
normalization of homosexuality.
00:00:59.19\00:01:02.52
It seems that today
that in the headlines,
00:01:02.56\00:01:06.19
almost every day, is
something that is saying
00:01:06.23\00:01:09.73
something about
accepting homosexuals,
00:01:09.76\00:01:12.53
accepting the gay lifestyle,
as being just as normal
00:01:12.57\00:01:16.54
as we would view heterosexuals.
00:01:16.57\00:01:19.57
And so it's interesting
that this is beginning to become
00:01:19.61\00:01:25.31
much more prevalent
00:01:25.35\00:01:26.95
than it has been in
the past where we look--
00:01:26.98\00:01:30.19
where as a nation
we've looked at things
00:01:30.22\00:01:32.29
a little more from
a Christian standpoint
00:01:32.32\00:01:34.92
it seems that
that's disappearing.
00:01:34.96\00:01:37.29
And so as I'd like to
remind our viewers today
00:01:37.33\00:01:40.46
that we want to look at
this from the Word of God
00:01:40.50\00:01:43.73
and to see what's God's view
00:01:43.77\00:01:46.43
of the homosexual
and homosexuality.
00:01:46.47\00:01:48.97
So, Ron, how is it that
God expresses His feelings
00:01:49.00\00:01:53.54
towards the homosexual?
00:01:53.58\00:01:55.04
And, Wayne, this is
such an important question
00:01:55.08\00:01:57.11
because what we
do just to reiterate,
00:01:57.15\00:01:59.21
what we do here so much
in the news, in the media,
00:01:59.25\00:02:04.52
in society is how-- how we feel,
00:02:04.55\00:02:09.12
how the homosexual feels,
00:02:09.16\00:02:10.83
about how society
feels and so forth.
00:02:10.86\00:02:12.96
And we've talked
about this a number of times
00:02:12.99\00:02:16.26
that what seems to be
left out of the equation
00:02:16.30\00:02:19.23
is how does God feel?
00:02:19.27\00:02:21.57
And so it's very
important for us as Christians
00:02:21.60\00:02:24.57
and having come out of
that lifestyle ourselves
00:02:24.61\00:02:27.48
to look at how God
feels about the issue.
00:02:27.51\00:02:31.01
And so in order to do
that is there something
00:02:31.05\00:02:33.11
that we can
reference from God's Word,
00:02:33.15\00:02:34.98
are there texts that
actually deal with this topic?
00:02:35.02\00:02:37.22
Yes, exactly and
that's why I would say
00:02:37.25\00:02:40.02
why don't we let
God speak for Himself.
00:02:40.06\00:02:41.92
You know, we can
talk about how He feels
00:02:41.96\00:02:44.69
but it's so much
better to just say
00:02:44.73\00:02:47.20
"God, You show us how You feel."
00:02:47.23\00:02:48.63
And so, you know,
I've compiled a few
00:02:48.66\00:02:51.43
just a sample
texts and scripture
00:02:51.47\00:02:53.34
that show us how God feels--
00:02:53.37\00:02:55.77
Give me one. About, just one?
00:02:55.80\00:02:58.87
No, we've got several here
00:02:58.91\00:03:00.24
but yeah, the
first one, 1 John 4:8
00:03:00.28\00:03:03.48
and it might be
surprising to know that
00:03:03.51\00:03:06.72
this is an
expression of how God feels
00:03:06.75\00:03:08.45
towards the homosexual.
00:03:08.48\00:03:09.98
But 1 John 4:8 God is
telling us that He is love.
00:03:10.02\00:03:14.29
God is love or
how does that reveal
00:03:14.32\00:03:19.09
His feeling
toward the homosexual.
00:03:19.13\00:03:21.83
Well, if we go to Romans 5:8
00:03:21.86\00:03:25.93
Paul says "But God
commendeth his love toward us,
00:03:25.97\00:03:29.47
in that, while we
were yet sinners."
00:03:29.50\00:03:31.91
That includes homosexual. Right.
00:03:31.94\00:03:33.78
While we were yet
sinners, homosexual sinners
00:03:33.81\00:03:37.21
"Christ died for us."
00:03:37.25\00:03:39.41
So that shows us another text,
00:03:39.45\00:03:41.38
it shows us how God
feels towards the homosexual.
00:03:41.42\00:03:45.22
He was willing to die for
us even before we accept Him.
00:03:45.25\00:03:48.56
And of course, the
text that everyone knows
00:03:48.59\00:03:51.89
and loves John 3:16
00:03:51.93\00:03:54.03
"For God so loved the world,
00:03:54.06\00:03:56.56
that He gave his
only begotten Son,
00:03:56.60\00:03:58.10
that whosoever believeth in Him
00:03:58.13\00:04:00.20
should not perish, but
have everlasting life."
00:04:00.24\00:04:03.24
You know, it's kind of, I
think it might be important
00:04:03.27\00:04:04.91
also to indicate here too that
00:04:04.94\00:04:07.78
if you have same sex attraction
or you have temptations
00:04:07.81\00:04:12.15
that you differentiate
between that and behavior
00:04:12.18\00:04:16.08
and so if we're
looking at a little bit about
00:04:16.12\00:04:19.45
how does God feel
about homosexual behavior,
00:04:19.49\00:04:22.12
well, we're looking at
that during our discussion today
00:04:22.16\00:04:25.53
but that if you are
just experiencing temptation
00:04:25.56\00:04:28.86
that you wouldn't necessarily
identify as a homosexual,
00:04:28.90\00:04:32.17
that you would
identify as a sinner
00:04:32.20\00:04:36.04
tainted with temptations.
00:04:36.07\00:04:38.54
But that as long as you're
not carrying out the behavior,
00:04:38.57\00:04:41.64
you're not an active homosexual.
00:04:41.68\00:04:44.95
That's true and God
has so many expressions
00:04:44.98\00:04:48.38
of how He feels
00:04:48.42\00:04:50.32
towards the
person who is struggling.
00:04:50.35\00:04:51.85
But even--
00:04:51.89\00:04:53.22
And identifying at
first as homosexual temptation
00:04:53.25\00:04:57.99
and then looking at this
that let's go into looking it
00:04:58.03\00:05:01.16
as acknowledging
homosexual behavior as sin
00:05:01.20\00:05:04.60
now what does God
have to say to that sinner
00:05:04.63\00:05:08.14
and that's where your
versus are so important.
00:05:08.17\00:05:10.47
Right.
00:05:10.51\00:05:12.71
First of all, I
mean, in another reference,
00:05:12.74\00:05:15.51
He is reaching out
00:05:15.54\00:05:16.88
and for example,
in Proverbs 23:26,
00:05:16.91\00:05:20.88
He says "My son"
so He is reaching out
00:05:20.92\00:05:24.19
to the sinner
referring to him as His son.
00:05:24.22\00:05:28.46
I think that
such an endearing term
00:05:28.49\00:05:30.46
and this, Wayne, what I
think is so important to paint
00:05:30.49\00:05:35.10
about God and to reveal
that His love towards us
00:05:35.13\00:05:39.30
even when we were in
rebellion, it's still there
00:05:39.33\00:05:43.27
even before we're just
saying we're struggling
00:05:43.30\00:05:46.07
and even wanting a way out.
00:05:46.11\00:05:47.51
Even while were
in rebellion He says
00:05:47.54\00:05:49.14
"My son, give me thine heart,
00:05:49.18\00:05:52.01
and let thine
eyes observe my ways."
00:05:52.05\00:05:54.72
Listen and
learn, watch and learn,
00:05:54.75\00:05:58.29
follow My example, a father
trying to teach his children.
00:05:58.32\00:06:01.16
And, you know,
parents have wayward children
00:06:01.19\00:06:04.76
and as a father myself,
00:06:04.79\00:06:08.83
many times I'm
trying to get my children
00:06:08.86\00:06:10.77
to just pay attention.
00:06:10.80\00:06:12.60
Listen and learn
from my experience,
00:06:12.63\00:06:15.37
learn from my
study and so forth.
00:06:15.40\00:06:18.07
Another good
example is with Mary.
00:06:18.11\00:06:20.01
Now Mary was guilty
of the same type of sin,
00:06:20.04\00:06:23.95
the violation of
the seventh commandment,
00:06:23.98\00:06:25.91
adultery and Jesus said to her
00:06:25.95\00:06:28.88
"Neither do I condemn thee."
00:06:28.92\00:06:30.62
So here she was
actively a sinner
00:06:30.65\00:06:34.99
and Jesus says, I
don't condemn you, Mary.
00:06:35.02\00:06:37.93
That's so important
for us to know Wayne.
00:06:37.96\00:06:39.76
He's not condemning
00:06:39.79\00:06:41.13
but then He says,
"Go and sin no more."
00:06:41.16\00:06:43.47
You know, but I would
like to make a comment about
00:06:43.50\00:06:45.33
that I use in my presentation
today called Engaged.
00:06:45.37\00:06:50.97
God gave me this
about that story on Mary
00:06:51.01\00:06:54.08
and the church might
learn something from this too
00:06:54.11\00:06:56.95
is that, you know, God
didn't use a clobbered technique
00:06:56.98\00:07:00.35
so we can't just throw the
verses out there for people
00:07:00.38\00:07:03.39
to see that God is not putting
His approval on homosexuality
00:07:03.42\00:07:08.62
as He didn't put
approval on adultery
00:07:08.66\00:07:11.49
or sexual sin.
00:07:11.53\00:07:14.33
But He invited Mary, you
know, come share a meal with Me.
00:07:14.36\00:07:18.00
Come have
something to drink with Me.
00:07:18.03\00:07:19.87
Come spend the evening with Me.
00:07:19.90\00:07:21.74
And, Mary, please don't
go back to those men tonight
00:07:21.77\00:07:26.07
and Mary says, well, but,
Jesus, you know, they love me.
00:07:26.11\00:07:30.41
And God lets her go
00:07:30.45\00:07:33.25
and then yet she
comes back the next day
00:07:33.28\00:07:36.12
and He says, ah, Mary,
so good to see you again.
00:07:36.15\00:07:39.09
You're so beautiful.
00:07:39.12\00:07:40.46
I love you, spend
time with Me today
00:07:40.49\00:07:42.72
and they spend
another day like the first.
00:07:42.76\00:07:45.23
And through the
course of the seven times
00:07:45.26\00:07:48.73
that it took for
Mary to come back.
00:07:48.76\00:07:51.03
Jesus is revealing His
tender compassionate love
00:07:51.07\00:07:54.87
while He's not
condemning her as He tells her,
00:07:54.90\00:07:57.17
"I don't condemn you"
00:07:57.21\00:07:58.61
and asks her go and sin no more.
00:07:58.64\00:08:01.88
And finally she's able to see
00:08:01.91\00:08:03.71
the difference
between His pure love
00:08:03.75\00:08:06.51
and what she used to think
was love is no longer love.
00:08:06.55\00:08:09.58
She sees it as abuse. Right.
00:08:09.62\00:08:11.85
And in our own experiences,
00:08:11.89\00:08:14.32
and we've shared
so we know each other
00:08:14.36\00:08:16.52
and how we have
come out this gay life.
00:08:16.56\00:08:20.23
These are the types of things
00:08:20.26\00:08:22.10
that we both had
to come to understand
00:08:22.13\00:08:25.63
before we would even
deal with the gay issue
00:08:25.67\00:08:27.97
that He loves us,
00:08:28.00\00:08:30.17
we're like a son,
yes, maybe a wayward son
00:08:30.21\00:08:32.77
but He still loves us
anyway, He doesn't condemn us.
00:08:32.81\00:08:36.58
And then Jeremiah 3:13
00:08:36.61\00:08:38.41
He pleads with
us wayward children,
00:08:38.45\00:08:41.38
He pleads because He loves us.
00:08:41.42\00:08:43.82
He says "Only
acknowledge thine iniquity."
00:08:43.85\00:08:46.19
Just admit that
this is a problem
00:08:46.22\00:08:49.16
"That you've transgressed
against the Lord thy God."
00:08:49.19\00:08:51.56
Verse 14, "Turn, O
backsliding children,"
00:08:51.59\00:08:54.40
He still calling us children.
00:08:54.43\00:08:56.23
"Return ye backsliding children
00:08:56.26\00:08:58.90
and I will heal
your backsliding."
00:08:58.93\00:09:01.10
And so, and one more
example, the Prodigal Son.
00:09:01.14\00:09:06.78
What a beautiful
depiction of how God feels
00:09:06.81\00:09:10.21
towards the homosexual.
00:09:10.25\00:09:11.81
Now, we're not
saying this Prodigal Son
00:09:11.85\00:09:13.65
was a homosexual
but I was a prodigal son
00:09:13.68\00:09:16.89
and my sin happen to be
homosexuality and yours.
00:09:16.92\00:09:20.19
We left-- I left my family,
I turned my back on my family
00:09:20.22\00:09:24.36
and my God and my
church as a prodigal
00:09:24.39\00:09:27.70
and we read in the
story, the Prodigal Son
00:09:27.73\00:09:30.67
there's beautiful
love of the father waiting
00:09:30.70\00:09:34.70
and longing to receive
the son back into the family.
00:09:34.74\00:09:37.74
And so I think it's
important that we see
00:09:37.77\00:09:40.38
how God feels
about the homosexual
00:09:40.41\00:09:43.21
is not the way He
feels about homosexuality.
00:09:43.24\00:09:46.65
Because the
homosexual is a sinner
00:09:46.68\00:09:48.98
in need of salvation
and God loves that person.
00:09:49.02\00:09:52.85
That' right. That's right.
00:09:52.89\00:09:54.22
So tell me--
00:09:54.26\00:09:57.49
you painted a good picture
about God's love for any sinner
00:09:57.53\00:10:01.53
regardless what the sin is.
00:10:01.56\00:10:03.47
So let's dive a
little bit deeper into this.
00:10:03.50\00:10:07.54
how has God really
feel towards homosexuality
00:10:07.57\00:10:10.41
because it seems like we're,
we're skirting the issue today
00:10:10.44\00:10:13.41
that we're afraid to speak out
00:10:13.44\00:10:15.21
about what that Word
of God truly does say?
00:10:15.24\00:10:18.41
And I think it is
so important for us
00:10:18.45\00:10:20.08
to really paint this picture
00:10:20.12\00:10:22.28
of God's feeling towards us
personally, before we look at,
00:10:22.32\00:10:25.65
you know, the question.
00:10:25.69\00:10:27.02
Yes, absolute.
00:10:27.06\00:10:28.39
And now we will take that dive
00:10:28.42\00:10:30.26
so we need to
fasten the seatbelts
00:10:30.29\00:10:32.03
because it's not
a pretty picture.
00:10:32.06\00:10:33.83
Because it's gonna
address our feelings.
00:10:33.86\00:10:36.16
Right. And God hates
sin. He loves the sinner.
00:10:36.20\00:10:41.64
That's what drew us to Him. Yes.
00:10:41.67\00:10:43.74
But, boy, does
He hate the things
00:10:43.77\00:10:45.57
that separate us from Him
00:10:45.61\00:10:48.34
and that destroys
and pull us away from Him
00:10:48.38\00:10:50.75
and so, let me just share
00:10:50.78\00:10:53.38
three passages
of scripture. Okay.
00:10:53.42\00:10:56.45
That tell us how God feels
about the sin of homosexuality.
00:10:56.48\00:11:01.06
This is not how He feels
about you and me as sinners,
00:11:01.09\00:11:04.69
but how He feels about the thing
00:11:04.73\00:11:06.36
that is hurting
us and hurting Him.
00:11:06.39\00:11:09.06
And this is why-- we should--
00:11:09.10\00:11:10.60
you know, God has
given us this beautiful tool
00:11:10.63\00:11:13.50
His Word to go to
and so many of us end up
00:11:13.54\00:11:17.64
making observations
rather than going to the lamp
00:11:17.67\00:11:21.38
that God has given us that
that is a light to our feet
00:11:21.41\00:11:24.08
and so important
that that you as a viewer
00:11:24.11\00:11:27.88
would go to the Word of God
00:11:27.92\00:11:29.55
and let God speak to
you through His Word.
00:11:29.58\00:11:32.15
And pray and ask
for God's guidance
00:11:32.19\00:11:34.49
and for the
presence of the Holy Spirit
00:11:34.52\00:11:36.16
when you do this.
00:11:36.19\00:11:37.53
Now we do have to understand
that, 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
00:11:37.56\00:11:40.93
I think is that
00:11:40.96\00:11:42.30
"all Scripture is
given by inspiration of God."
00:11:42.33\00:11:44.37
These are His
thoughts, His feelings.
00:11:44.40\00:11:47.10
"And it is profitable
for doctrine for reprove."
00:11:47.14\00:11:50.97
Well, ouch,
that's like a spanking.
00:11:51.01\00:11:53.94
For correction,
00:11:53.98\00:11:55.44
I don't need to be
corrected I know everything.
00:11:55.48\00:11:57.58
You know, we see that
in children of all ages.
00:11:57.61\00:12:00.68
And instruction
in righteousness.
00:12:00.72\00:12:02.78
In other words the Word of
God is to shape and mold us
00:12:02.82\00:12:06.89
back into His image.
00:12:06.92\00:12:08.26
So it's very important.
00:12:08.29\00:12:09.62
Now these three
texts of scripture
00:12:09.66\00:12:11.33
they're very strong.
00:12:11.36\00:12:12.99
We want to stress here, Wayne,
00:12:13.03\00:12:14.66
that this is how He
feels about the behavior
00:12:14.70\00:12:17.17
about the sin, not the person.
00:12:17.20\00:12:20.34
Leviticus 18:22
00:12:20.37\00:12:22.34
"Thou shalt not
lie with mankind,
00:12:22.37\00:12:24.21
as with womankind,
it is abomination."
00:12:24.24\00:12:28.04
God looks at this
sin as abomination.
00:12:28.08\00:12:31.28
Not the
abomination but one of many.
00:12:31.31\00:12:34.68
So, Ron, was that
just some Levitical law
00:12:34.72\00:12:37.35
that we don't pay, need
to pay attention today to?
00:12:37.39\00:12:41.19
No, and I'll
share one more Levitical
00:12:41.22\00:12:43.89
and then we'll go
to the New Testament
00:12:43.93\00:12:45.56
and we can't say
that's Levitical.
00:12:45.59\00:12:46.93
No, we can't. Right.
00:12:46.96\00:12:48.33
But in the
Leviticus 20 God reiterates
00:12:48.36\00:12:51.23
and when He
repeats Himself to me
00:12:51.27\00:12:52.83
that's like using
that yellow highlighter.
00:12:52.87\00:12:55.27
I said at once, we
said this to our kids.
00:12:55.30\00:12:58.61
I've said it once
I'm going to say it again
00:12:58.64\00:13:01.44
and if you don't get
it I'll say it again.
00:13:01.48\00:13:03.78
And so He says again
just two chapters later
00:13:03.81\00:13:06.25
in Leviticus 20.
00:13:06.28\00:13:07.92
"If a man also lie with mankind,
00:13:07.95\00:13:09.75
as he lieth with a woman,
00:13:09.78\00:13:11.12
both of them have
committed an abomination."
00:13:11.15\00:13:14.32
Again, not the abomination.
00:13:14.36\00:13:16.42
You know, in my book,
Wayne, I listed to help me
00:13:16.46\00:13:19.46
I listed all the abominations
in the Bible in one paragraph.
00:13:19.49\00:13:23.50
That was so helpful to me,
00:13:23.53\00:13:24.87
to realize that my sin
was not the unpardonable sin.
00:13:24.90\00:13:29.00
It was one of many
sins, all called abomination
00:13:29.04\00:13:32.41
all of which God can deal
with and that was very helpful.
00:13:32.44\00:13:35.84
Now to Romans, the New Testament
00:13:35.88\00:13:39.55
and this is one
that is very strong
00:13:39.58\00:13:42.02
but it does
reveal how God feels.
00:13:42.05\00:13:44.39
Romans Chapter 1,
00:13:44.42\00:13:45.99
"Wherefore God also
gave them up to uncleanness
00:13:46.02\00:13:48.66
through the lusts
of their own hearts,
00:13:48.69\00:13:51.03
to dishonor their own
bodies between themselves"
00:13:51.06\00:13:53.66
so He's referring to
this as dishonoring ourselves.
00:13:53.70\00:13:57.70
That hurts a father to
see a child hurt himself.
00:13:57.73\00:14:00.74
"For this cause God gave
them up unto vile affections."
00:14:00.77\00:14:04.57
So now it's referred to as vile.
00:14:04.61\00:14:07.08
"For even their women
did change the natural use
00:14:07.11\00:14:09.58
into that which
is against nature."
00:14:09.61\00:14:11.98
So it's against nature.
00:14:12.01\00:14:14.88
"And likewise also the men,
00:14:14.92\00:14:16.42
leaving the
natural use of the woman,
00:14:16.45\00:14:18.65
burned in their
lust one toward another,"
00:14:18.69\00:14:21.52
so then we read on
00:14:21.56\00:14:23.86
"men with men working
that which is unseemly,
00:14:23.89\00:14:27.93
receiving in
themselves that recompense
00:14:27.96\00:14:30.00
of their error which was meet.
00:14:30.03\00:14:31.53
And even as they did not like
00:14:31.57\00:14:33.23
to retain God
in their knowledge,
00:14:33.27\00:14:34.87
they are putting
themselves ahead of God here.
00:14:34.90\00:14:38.34
"God gave them over
to a reprobate mind,"
00:14:38.37\00:14:40.68
so he is referring to this
00:14:40.71\00:14:42.54
as being
reprobate or reprobate mind
00:14:42.58\00:14:45.51
"to do those things
which are not convenient,
00:14:45.55\00:14:47.42
being filled with
all unrighteousness."
00:14:47.45\00:14:49.38
So now He goes through a
list of how He looks at this.
00:14:49.42\00:14:52.15
"Unrighteousness, fornication,
wickedness, covetousness,"
00:14:52.19\00:14:57.36
is desiring that
which is not for ourselves,
00:14:57.39\00:15:00.66
coveting something
that is forbidding.
00:15:00.70\00:15:03.03
"Maliciousness" and then
a whole list of other things
00:15:03.06\00:15:06.37
and skipping
down a little further
00:15:06.40\00:15:07.74
in chapter 1 of Romans,
00:15:07.77\00:15:09.94
"Who knowing
the judgment of God,
00:15:09.97\00:15:12.97
that they which commit
such things are worthy of death,
00:15:13.01\00:15:16.58
not only do the same,
00:15:16.61\00:15:18.31
but have pleasure
in them that do them."
00:15:18.35\00:15:20.35
So they know the
wages of sin is death,
00:15:20.38\00:15:23.79
they know this, that
people talked about here
00:15:23.82\00:15:26.96
that are caught
up in this lifestyle,
00:15:26.99\00:15:29.19
they know the
wages of sin is death
00:15:29.22\00:15:32.19
but they do it anyway.
00:15:32.23\00:15:33.56
Right. You're meaning that sin--
00:15:33.60\00:15:34.93
in that sin
you've indicated pleasure
00:15:34.96\00:15:36.30
that shows us again that's,
that is driven by feeling.
00:15:36.33\00:15:39.07
So our feelings are
gonna be a deceptive tool
00:15:39.10\00:15:41.87
and helping us to make us think
that it's all okay with God.
00:15:41.90\00:15:45.17
And God doesn't
want us to be controlled
00:15:45.21\00:15:48.64
and directed by our feelings
00:15:48.68\00:15:50.01
because they're
fickle, aren't they, Wayne?
00:15:50.05\00:15:51.45
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:15:51.48\00:15:52.81
I mean, from
one day to the next,
00:15:52.85\00:15:54.22
From one minute to
the next sometimes.
00:15:54.25\00:15:56.45
We may be up, we may be down,
00:15:56.48\00:15:57.92
we may be all around
and God is rock solid.
00:15:57.95\00:16:01.56
Don't go by your feelings.
00:16:01.59\00:16:03.32
I'm giving you
something to hang onto
00:16:03.36\00:16:05.19
so that your life can
be steady and straight.
00:16:05.23\00:16:08.30
Oh, did I say that?
00:16:08.33\00:16:09.66
Oh, you sure did. That's right.
00:16:09.70\00:16:11.10
And right down the narrow
way which leadeth unto life.
00:16:11.13\00:16:15.74
So now we see
how God feels about
00:16:15.77\00:16:17.71
the sin of homosexuality
00:16:17.74\00:16:20.74
as opposed to the
sinner whom He loves dearly.
00:16:20.78\00:16:23.35
And when we use that
term straight sometimes today,
00:16:23.38\00:16:25.71
you know, we actually,
00:16:25.75\00:16:27.08
you can just
replace that by saying,
00:16:27.12\00:16:28.58
you know, redeemed
and not necessarily,
00:16:28.62\00:16:31.79
you know, a heterosexuality,
you know, connotation to that.
00:16:31.82\00:16:35.69
But, you know,
when I came back to God
00:16:35.72\00:16:37.96
and had that experience
00:16:37.99\00:16:39.33
that amazing
lightning bolt experience
00:16:39.36\00:16:41.10
that I had with Him,
one of the first places
00:16:41.13\00:16:43.53
that I came in
touch within His word
00:16:43.57\00:16:45.43
was something that
I hadn't remembered
00:16:45.47\00:16:47.20
from my past biblical history.
00:16:47.24\00:16:50.27
And that was in 1
Corinthians 6:9- 11,
00:16:50.31\00:16:54.28
you know, and I
read through there
00:16:54.31\00:16:56.14
and I saw that, you know,
00:16:56.18\00:16:58.55
God shows His displeasure
for homosexual offenders
00:16:58.58\00:17:02.92
and for adulterers and idolaters
00:17:02.95\00:17:05.55
and the list goes on
and it's like I'm inclusive,
00:17:05.59\00:17:08.02
I was inclusive in that.
00:17:08.06\00:17:09.86
I was in that list three times.
00:17:09.89\00:17:12.86
Three times I was
going to the bad place.
00:17:12.89\00:17:14.86
Well, there you go.
00:17:14.90\00:17:16.50
But the beauty of
how that passage ends,
00:17:16.53\00:17:19.47
it says "and
such were some of you"
00:17:19.50\00:17:22.80
showing that
redemption is possible,
00:17:22.84\00:17:25.44
the healing is possible,
00:17:25.47\00:17:26.88
the beauty of
coming into agreement
00:17:26.91\00:17:29.54
with Jesus
Christ and let Him rule
00:17:29.58\00:17:32.65
and heal us in our lives.
00:17:32.68\00:17:34.45
Wayne, I have to say
00:17:34.48\00:17:35.82
that when you
bring up that text,
00:17:35.85\00:17:38.19
that text was a
pivotal point in my experience.
00:17:38.22\00:17:41.99
Someone showed me
that text and they read it
00:17:42.02\00:17:44.46
"and such were some of you."
00:17:44.49\00:17:46.56
"But ye are
washed, ye are justified,
00:17:46.59\00:17:49.50
you are sanctified in
the name of the Lord Jesus
00:17:49.53\00:17:52.33
and by the spirit of our God."
00:17:52.37\00:17:53.90
And I, that very night ended
up taking a stand for Jesus
00:17:53.94\00:17:58.97
because of that one text
00:17:59.01\00:18:00.98
and Paul was
talking to Corinthians
00:18:01.01\00:18:02.64
who had been homosexual.
00:18:02.68\00:18:04.81
It's a powerful text. Exactly.
00:18:04.85\00:18:07.05
So now we know
a little bit about
00:18:07.08\00:18:12.02
ourselves as
sinners on this earth
00:18:12.05\00:18:14.12
having arrived
with the fallen nature.
00:18:14.16\00:18:16.86
Then we've been
given guidance about
00:18:16.89\00:18:18.79
how we can differentiate
between the kinds of sins
00:18:18.83\00:18:22.46
that might be of concern to a us
00:18:22.50\00:18:24.30
or might have
prevalence in our lives
00:18:24.33\00:18:26.70
and how to identify ourselves
knowing our sinful state.
00:18:26.74\00:18:31.17
And then God comes in
and begins to show us,
00:18:31.21\00:18:34.28
you know, what to do
under the circumstances
00:18:34.31\00:18:37.21
of that sin being prevalent
or occurring in our lives.
00:18:37.25\00:18:42.02
So here I am
knowing that I'm a sinner
00:18:42.05\00:18:45.55
then I see that
I'm same-sex attracted
00:18:45.59\00:18:47.86
and then before I
know it for myself,
00:18:47.89\00:18:50.33
I was out of the church,
00:18:50.36\00:18:51.69
I was out of
the presence of God.
00:18:51.73\00:18:53.19
I was living in a
life of immorality.
00:18:53.23\00:18:56.77
I was living not in
accordance with His will
00:18:56.80\00:18:59.87
but against His will.
00:18:59.90\00:19:01.50
And then God shines
His light on me and says
00:19:01.54\00:19:05.57
"Here are some truths
that I want you to consider
00:19:05.61\00:19:10.15
and will you take
notice of Me as being your God,
00:19:10.18\00:19:14.55
being King of the universe?"
Having respect for who I am
00:19:14.58\00:19:20.56
and inviting the
Holy Spirit into my life
00:19:20.59\00:19:24.16
to bring about
conviction in my heart
00:19:24.19\00:19:26.19
that only Jesus could do,
not another person could do.
00:19:26.23\00:19:29.40
And so what happens here-
00:19:29.43\00:19:32.23
what is that reconciling
relationship with Jesus Christ?
00:19:32.27\00:19:36.84
What does that look like? Okay.
00:19:36.87\00:19:39.64
We see how God feels toward us
00:19:39.67\00:19:43.38
and how He feels toward sin
00:19:43.41\00:19:45.58
and they are diametrically
opposed to each other.
00:19:45.61\00:19:48.12
And so why would
He reveal that to us
00:19:48.15\00:19:50.99
unless He gave us
a way to reconcile
00:19:51.02\00:19:53.39
this big, this big void.
00:19:53.42\00:19:56.02
And so I listed, you
know, a few text of scripture
00:19:56.06\00:19:58.29
that to me were
sequential in my understanding
00:19:58.33\00:20:01.36
on how to bring
about this reconciliation.
00:20:01.40\00:20:04.07
In Matthew 1:21
the very name of Jesus
00:20:04.10\00:20:07.67
means Savior and Deliverer
00:20:07.70\00:20:09.40
and He was given that name
00:20:09.44\00:20:11.14
because He was to save
His people from their sins.
00:20:11.17\00:20:15.64
So in other words,
He came to save people
00:20:15.68\00:20:19.08
who were not repentant
yet, to draw them and so forth.
00:20:19.11\00:20:22.98
He came to save
them from their sins,
00:20:23.02\00:20:24.99
not in the sin of homosexuality
00:20:25.02\00:20:27.56
but from the sin
of homosexuality.
00:20:27.59\00:20:30.43
And then 1 John 3:4 tells us
00:20:30.46\00:20:33.09
that sin is a
transgression of the law.
00:20:33.13\00:20:35.66
So if He came to
save us from sin,
00:20:35.70\00:20:37.57
we need to know what sin is.
00:20:37.60\00:20:39.27
Right.
00:20:39.30\00:20:40.64
We have to
accept God's definition
00:20:40.67\00:20:42.34
that it is
violating the commandments.
00:20:42.37\00:20:45.17
And then we read in Romans 3:23
that all have sinned at least,
00:20:45.21\00:20:49.94
I know I have.
Maybe you have too.
00:20:49.98\00:20:52.71
"All have sin and come
short of the glory of God."
00:20:52.75\00:20:56.55
So Jesus came to save all of us.
00:20:56.58\00:20:58.75
Why?
00:20:58.79\00:21:00.12
Because Romans 6:23 because
the "wages of sin is death"
00:21:00.16\00:21:03.79
and this is why, Wayne,
that God hates sin so much.
00:21:03.83\00:21:10.17
Because it's
unplugging from the life source.
00:21:10.20\00:21:13.23
It is separating His
children from Himself.
00:21:13.27\00:21:17.01
It works to separate
and actually in the end,
00:21:17.04\00:21:20.48
you know, these
children whom He created
00:21:20.51\00:21:22.38
to love and cuddle
00:21:22.41\00:21:24.35
and to be with for all eternity,
00:21:24.38\00:21:26.01
it works to
ultimately destroy them.
00:21:26.05\00:21:28.98
And so of
course, He would hate it.
00:21:29.02\00:21:30.99
I mean, I would hate anything
00:21:31.02\00:21:32.42
that would pull my children away
00:21:32.45\00:21:33.79
from me for all eternity.
00:21:33.82\00:21:35.52
So it's only logical.
00:21:35.56\00:21:37.23
And then Romans 5:10 "For
if, when we were enemies,"
00:21:37.26\00:21:41.66
and that's what we all were,
00:21:41.70\00:21:44.37
"we were reconciled to
God by the death of His Son,
00:21:44.40\00:21:46.97
much more, being reconciled,
we shall be saved by his life."
00:21:47.00\00:21:50.91
So God has made a
way while we're enemies.
00:21:50.94\00:21:53.94
He draws us to Himself.
00:21:53.98\00:21:56.01
And then 1
Corinthians 5:17 tells us that
00:21:56.04\00:21:59.61
"We can be new
creatures in Christ."
00:21:59.65\00:22:02.08
And this is an
amazing thing about God
00:22:02.12\00:22:04.42
that He will work to recreate us
00:22:04.45\00:22:07.62
to what we were created
to be in the first place.
00:22:07.66\00:22:10.16
Right.
00:22:10.19\00:22:11.53
also backs that up.
00:22:11.56\00:22:13.46
"It is God which works in us
00:22:13.50\00:22:15.16
to will and to do
of His good pleasure."
00:22:15.20\00:22:17.93
And then Philippians 1:6
00:22:17.97\00:22:20.04
"That we can be
confident of this very thing
00:22:20.07\00:22:22.24
that He which has
begun a good work,
00:22:22.27\00:22:24.27
He will perform it."
00:22:24.31\00:22:26.37
And so these
are just a few texts
00:22:26.41\00:22:28.84
that we're all familiar with
00:22:28.88\00:22:30.21
that show us that
though God hates the sin,
00:22:30.25\00:22:34.78
He loves the sinner
00:22:34.82\00:22:36.48
and He has
provided a way to reconcile,
00:22:36.52\00:22:39.19
to separate the
sinner from that thing
00:22:39.22\00:22:41.52
that is destroying him and
reconcile him back to himself
00:22:41.56\00:22:45.03
and recreate him
into the image of God.
00:22:45.06\00:22:48.50
And that's what,
you know, we talk about
00:22:48.53\00:22:50.77
is being new creatures in Christ
00:22:50.80\00:22:53.03
because He is
working this out in us.
00:22:53.07\00:22:56.74
So, Ron, here I am,
I've tuned in to this channel
00:22:56.77\00:23:01.88
Pure Choices and
I'm watching today
00:23:01.91\00:23:05.01
and I just happened
to be channel-surfing
00:23:05.05\00:23:07.48
I'm a practicing gay individual
00:23:07.52\00:23:11.72
and I'm starting to hear
00:23:11.75\00:23:13.09
what you guys are
talking about here.
00:23:13.12\00:23:15.39
And so I'm thinking that maybe
00:23:15.42\00:23:19.26
I should listen
to the Holy Spirit,
00:23:19.29\00:23:21.53
I should listen to what
God might be saying to my soul
00:23:21.56\00:23:24.87
and I'm convicted while
I'm watching this program
00:23:24.90\00:23:27.94
that I can see through
the power of Jesus Christ
00:23:27.97\00:23:31.41
and through the
power of the Holy Spirit
00:23:31.44\00:23:32.87
that I'm living
in dis-accordance
00:23:32.91\00:23:34.71
with God's will and
then I've been living
00:23:34.74\00:23:36.85
according to my own
will under the deception
00:23:36.88\00:23:39.31
and the
influence of the evil one.
00:23:39.35\00:23:42.25
What do I do?
00:23:42.28\00:23:45.35
Submit.
00:23:45.39\00:23:48.76
You know, if-- you know,
00:23:48.79\00:23:50.96
I use this illustration a lot
00:23:50.99\00:23:52.46
and you will probably
hear it on this program
00:23:52.49\00:23:53.93
a few more times.
00:23:53.96\00:23:55.30
If someone is drowning in
the sea, say the sea of sin.
00:23:55.33\00:23:59.43
Sure.
00:23:59.47\00:24:00.80
The lifeguard comes out,
00:24:00.84\00:24:03.04
the lifeguard
needs the drowning person
00:24:03.07\00:24:06.98
to accept that saving
hand, to accept the life
00:24:07.01\00:24:12.21
device or
whatever is thrown to him.
00:24:12.25\00:24:14.18
And God says, you know,
if you just submit to Me,
00:24:14.22\00:24:17.45
I will work out
my plan in your life.
00:24:17.49\00:24:19.89
You don't have to feel perfect,
00:24:19.92\00:24:22.26
you need to just
accept that I can
00:24:22.29\00:24:25.19
and will be your
personal Savior from that sin.
00:24:25.23\00:24:29.43
It is a beautiful journey
00:24:29.46\00:24:30.83
and this is what you
and Mike and I've been
00:24:30.87\00:24:33.03
trying to show
through our various ministries
00:24:33.07\00:24:35.70
and in Coming Out
Ministries, we're on a journey.
00:24:35.74\00:24:39.07
I've been 21
years on this journey,
00:24:39.11\00:24:41.44
you what four
years on the Journey,
00:24:41.48\00:24:43.35
Mike 12 years,
00:24:43.38\00:24:44.71
we're at various
stages along the path.
00:24:44.75\00:24:47.75
But it's an
amazing exciting journey.
00:24:47.78\00:24:51.29
Growing process.
Yeah, growing venture.
00:24:51.32\00:24:53.02
You can't expect it all
at once and the thing is this
00:24:53.05\00:24:56.09
that God has told
us throughout His Word
00:24:56.12\00:24:58.69
that when we fall
00:24:58.73\00:25:01.26
that He is there and
He'll pick us back up.
00:25:01.30\00:25:03.67
And it's not
that it's sheep graze
00:25:03.70\00:25:06.30
or that it gives
us permission to fall
00:25:06.33\00:25:08.87
but that as we grow in Him,
00:25:08.90\00:25:11.17
we begin to trust Him more
00:25:11.21\00:25:13.71
and that we
believe in the strength
00:25:13.74\00:25:15.48
that He provides
us day in and day out.
00:25:15.51\00:25:18.38
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
00:25:18.41\00:25:20.52
So we're-- the idea then
00:25:20.55\00:25:22.98
is to get our
focus off the world
00:25:23.02\00:25:25.75
and off the deception
and back onto Jesus Christ.
00:25:25.79\00:25:29.26
And that comes
through an abiding
00:25:29.29\00:25:31.56
daily surrender to Him.
00:25:31.59\00:25:34.10
As I abide in Christ, I
surrender my life to Him,
00:25:34.13\00:25:38.67
I find that today,
when I walk down the street
00:25:38.70\00:25:41.07
and I experience temptation
that I immediately call upon
00:25:41.10\00:25:45.64
and ask for the Holy
Spirit to take those thoughts
00:25:45.67\00:25:49.94
that have been in my mind
00:25:49.98\00:25:51.88
and to renew my
mind with pure thoughts
00:25:51.91\00:25:54.35
and the thoughts
that Jesus would have me.
00:25:54.38\00:25:56.89
Do you still
experience temptation at all
00:25:56.92\00:25:59.59
in this travel today?
00:25:59.62\00:26:01.66
Oh, what a question.
00:26:01.69\00:26:03.53
You know, I was
baptized 21 years ago.
00:26:03.56\00:26:07.20
Satan wasn't. Yes.
00:26:07.23\00:26:09.80
Right? Yeah, exactly.
00:26:09.83\00:26:11.30
I've changed my direction.
Satan hasn't changed his.
00:26:11.33\00:26:15.30
But, you know, you can give
him such a resounding defeat
00:26:15.34\00:26:17.91
in certain areas of your life
00:26:17.94\00:26:19.61
that he may just give up in that
00:26:19.64\00:26:21.14
find and try something else.
00:26:21.18\00:26:22.54
That's right.
00:26:22.58\00:26:23.91
And so I have
put this behind me.
00:26:23.95\00:26:26.51
I have moved on.
00:26:26.55\00:26:27.88
I'm married, I have
children, I have grandchildren,
00:26:27.92\00:26:29.52
I have a full-time ministry
00:26:29.55\00:26:31.55
and but I would never say
00:26:31.59\00:26:34.29
that Satan doesn't try to throw
some kind of a mud ball at me
00:26:34.32\00:26:39.26
but I've learned
how to throw it back.
00:26:39.29\00:26:40.76
No, thanks. Not
interested. Nice try.
00:26:40.80\00:26:44.63
And move on and bring
every thought into captivity
00:26:44.67\00:26:47.77
under the obedience of Christ.
00:26:47.80\00:26:49.30
That's right.
00:26:49.34\00:26:50.67
Ron, this has been a
fascinating conversation
00:26:50.71\00:26:54.51
and, you know, I just
want to remind people today
00:26:54.54\00:26:57.25
that in my walk with
Christ that I come to Him
00:26:57.28\00:27:00.42
each and every
day, in the morning.
00:27:00.45\00:27:02.98
through study,
and through prayer,
00:27:03.02\00:27:05.65
and that I begin to
communicate with Him.
00:27:05.69\00:27:08.82
I want to set the
precedents for the whole day
00:27:08.86\00:27:12.56
when I'm doing
that so that I know
00:27:12.59\00:27:13.93
that He is continually with me.
00:27:13.96\00:27:16.53
Thank you so much for joining us
00:27:16.56\00:27:19.33
for this topic today
here on Pure Choices.
00:27:19.37\00:27:22.60
I'm Wayne Blakely
from Coming Out Ministries.
00:27:22.64\00:27:25.84
We have been so blessed
with the testimony of Ron
00:27:25.87\00:27:29.34
and I concur with
what he has stated today,
00:27:29.38\00:27:33.75
we have had a lot of
scriptural guidance here
00:27:33.78\00:27:37.95
that I hope you have
richly benefited from.
00:27:37.99\00:27:40.96
I invite to look at
00:27:40.99\00:27:42.32
future programming
here on Pure Choices
00:27:42.36\00:27:45.26
where we have been discussing
the topic of homosexuality.
00:27:45.29\00:27:49.30
Thanks so much and
have a very blessed day.
00:27:49.33\00:27:51.93