The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Hi, I'm Mike Carducci
with Coming Out Ministries,
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your host today on Pure Choices.
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I have with me
my fellow colleagues
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Ron Woolsey who is
a pastor in Arkansas
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and Wayne Blakely who
resides in Washington State.
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I'm from Tennessee
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and together we have
Coming Out Ministries.
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And what we have gone
through is our lifestyle
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of misunderstanding
of our own gender
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and it led us into
the homosexual lifestyle.
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And God reached
on and plucked us
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out of that lifestyle.
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And He did it in
such a profound way,
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basically, without
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the influence of
the Christian community
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that we had left many years ago.
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All three of us were
raised in Christian churches.
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We are raised in
Christian education
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and because of our history
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there were no
resources that were available.
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No way for people to
recognize what was going on,
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the hurt that we
were experiencing.
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And so if you would
we were almost like--
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we were kind of like shuffled
under the rug if you would
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or actually out the door.
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So as we have
had these experiences
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we just want to
explore a little bit.
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Our program today
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is Church Culture
and Homosexuality.
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Welcome to our program.
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Thank you.
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So first question
that I have for you guys,
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"how are you treated
by a Christian culture?"
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And if you would--
let's talk a little bit
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about the history
when you were a child.
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Well, you know,
it's interesting that
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in Christian
culture we think that
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a lot of things don't happen
that would ordinarily happen
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out there in the world.
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But the fact of the matter
is, is that it's happening
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we're just
weren't talking about it.
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And so in my
near to, to early teen
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I actually had two guys
that were friends of mine
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through my parents friends
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who introduced
me actually to sex.
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They were
heterosexual men, you know,
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as I look back on it
now they weren't having--
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Are we talking
about men or boys?
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Boys. Yeah. Okay, all right.
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They weren't having
the issues in identifying
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with their gender like I was.
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But it was an affirmation to me
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as they introduced
me into masturbation,
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they introduced me
into getting together
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every time we would go camping.
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We would look forward
to this time together.
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We would sleep together.
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This went on for about two years
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before they began to
identify with the opposite sex.
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And when they started saying,
"Oh, I have a girlfriend now"
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I was going, "Oh,
what happened, you know."
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I thought for a while
there that I was normal.
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But let's establish something
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that while you are
also participating in sex
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outside of what
God had ordained,
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they were also
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not only
experiencing the homosexual act,
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but even when
they got girlfriends
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they were experiencing
sex with them as well
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and they weren't married.
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Is that what you're
saying? I don't know.
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I actually don't know
that, that was taking place
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but, I know that
what was happening
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in my life and
in our exploration
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is something that happens
in many young men's life today
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that we don't talk about.
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And we're just
starting to come about as you--
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as deans find out
about this at our academies
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that are boarding academies.
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You know, it
maybe even happening
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in our church environment.
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And the fact of
the matter is that
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today now we are redeemed,
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we've been returned
back to Jesus Christ
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and while the
church didn't approach
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and talk about this issue,
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now they're beginning to realize
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in our return the danger
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and having left that
under the church pew.
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Wow. Ron, what
was your experience?
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Well, I would probably
say-- preface my experience
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by going back to the fact
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that I was
molested at the age of four
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which left me in
a vulnerable state
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so that I believed that
once a person is victimized,
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he is easily or she is
easily victimized again.
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It sets us in a path,
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a vulnerable
path of victimization.
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And so when I
was in grade school,
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I had a friend who
was an older student
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who happened to
be the pastor's son.
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Excuse me.
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And we were in a
singing group and on weekends
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because I lived across
the State Line in Mississippi
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and the school was in Tennessee.
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And I would spend the
weekends at the pastor's home
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with my friend because we
had singing gigs on the weekend.
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And I was
repeatedly sexually victimized
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in the pastor's home by the son
while just the two of us there.
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And I was very vulnerable.
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I didn't know how to say no.
I didn't know how to stop it.
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I would just freeze
and just let it happen
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and get over
with and what-have-you
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but there are other--
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just a couple of other instances
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that I would like to bring out
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as examples that our church,
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the Christian Church
needs to be aware of.
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Summer camp, we
would have a group of boys
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staying in a cabin together
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and the counselor did
not sleep in the same cabin
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and so at night the
boys are left alone.
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To their
experimentation, their curiosity
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and some of the boys
were very experienced already
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and this was a shock to me,
the whole idea of masturbation
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had never even come into my mind
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until I was at summer camp
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and this was going on.
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I didn't participate
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but I was
introduced to the concept
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and it was very
shocking. And in one--
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For one second, Ron,
what I'd like to point out
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is that we're all
over 50 years old.
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We're not
talking about situations
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that have happened
within the last couple years,
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we're talking about
things 30, 40 years ago
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that has happened
in our denomination
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and I believe that there's still
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so much darkness about this
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that, you know,
I can only imagine,
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you know, the
depth of what's going on
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even in our own
Christian culture.
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So let me let
you continue on that.
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My children refer to
that as the olden days,
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by the way.
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They constantly
reminding me how old I am,
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but also, one other instant
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when or example, in
the boy's dorm in academy,
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the shower in the boy's dorm
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was one big open shower
room where everyone showered.
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I mean, anyone showered.
It was open, you were exposed.
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This was a really bad
situation for someone like me
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who was confused already
and struggling in my mind
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to daily be
showering with other guys,
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you know, that our jocks
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or very
attractive and all of that
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and the games that
go on in the showers
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and the playing
around and messing around--
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So it added to the
confusion? Right. Yes.
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And so these are
things that were happening
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within the realm of church.
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Church academy, church
camp, the pastor's home.
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And we just need
to really realize
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that this is not something
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that, that we are protected
from within our church.
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I mean, this is, this
goes on behind the scenes
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within our church culture.
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In my own experience, I
remember feeling inadequate.
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I was a small kid.
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I grew two
inches at a high school
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so I'm still
5'5" which isn't much.
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Still growing. Right. Right.
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But I remember I
went to this one school,
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it was a public school.
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And they had a
built-in swimming pool,
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an Olympic-size pool
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and so every other
weekend in the winter time
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we would go swimming.
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Only the boys would swim
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from seventh,
eighth and ninth grade
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they swam naked for that week.
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It's shocking when I
think about what we endured
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because I remember
bringing my bathing suit
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and I remember being taunted
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because I
brought my bathing suit.
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I hadn't even reach puberty
yet when we started this.
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And so here I am
surrounded by other guys,
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they were more
developed than me,
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feeling incredibly insecure
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and then the only way
that I could find acceptance
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was to take my bathing suit off.
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We did jumping jacks
by the side at the pool
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and we paired
up with another kid
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to do our sit ups.
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Incredibly
humiliating and in my opinion,
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inappropriate
for children to do.
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Wrong signals. Right.
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So then in high
school my junior senior year
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I went to a academy,
the summer before that
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at, you know,
Christian summer camp
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there was a kid who had
some juvenile detention issues
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and he picked up
on me right away.
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I didn't choose him as a friend,
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he just kind of showed up
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and I remember
we were in the pool
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there at summer camp
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and he swam underneath the water
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and he grabbed me in my groin.
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I remember just, you
know, it wasn't what I wanted.
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I knew it wasn't right,
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you know, and I told
him don't do that again.
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And so he was the
only person I knew.
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I started off an
academy with him my junior year
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and again, he was experience
in homosexual activity.
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He saw something in me
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and before, probably
we'd been there a month,
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I had engaged in
homosexual sex with him.
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What was so shocking to me
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was that when I
went to bed that night
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I was crying.
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I knew, I knew that,
that I given into something
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that God said was not right.
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The worst part about
my anguish that night
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was to know that, that it
actually affirm something,
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it felt good.
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And so I can see
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how being exposed
to homosexual activity
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at a very young age,
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it does such a
mind game with you
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and it causes
such great confusion.
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However, it still felt good
and it confirmed something else
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which I think
makes us vulnerable
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for that kind of abuse again.
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Well, we need to just understand
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that sin is attractive
or no one would do it.
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So we're talking
about a perversion here
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but of course, it is
something that is attractive
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or we would not be here.
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And we wouldn't
have these testimonies.
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But even in your situation, Ron,
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as a child that
wasn't even sexual
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to be introduced to
it at four years old,
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not only did it open
up that issue of sexuality
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but it even identified
and educated you that way
00:10:40.57\00:10:43.51
and influenced your wiring.
00:10:43.54\00:10:45.24
So I want to move on.
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How did the church ministered
to you as a young adult?
00:10:46.64\00:10:51.85
And I can see, Wayne,
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you're already
filled with emotion.
00:10:53.25\00:10:56.12
What was that like for you?
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It didn't minister to me.
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There was
nobody addressing this.
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I was finding that
while the, the sexualness
00:11:04.56\00:11:11.20
that was taking place
was laying a foundation.
00:11:11.23\00:11:15.77
And I began to read in my Bible
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and see that various
texts were pointing out
00:11:18.41\00:11:21.08
who I was
beginning to associate with
00:11:21.11\00:11:22.84
and I thought well,
I didn't choose this.
00:11:22.88\00:11:25.21
And God's calling
these people sinners
00:11:25.25\00:11:27.65
and that being wrong behavior,
why is this happening to me
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when I haven't really chosen it.
00:11:31.72\00:11:34.09
And so there was nothing
coming from our school system,
00:11:34.12\00:11:37.09
there was no nothing
coming from our church system
00:11:37.13\00:11:40.50
and when I was late teen,
00:11:40.53\00:11:44.93
I had already
kind of slipped away
00:11:44.97\00:11:47.17
and had come back to the church
00:11:47.20\00:11:49.24
to talk about
reengaging with the church
00:11:49.27\00:11:51.44
and mention to the
pastor what my sin was
00:11:51.47\00:11:55.58
and he just said to
me, "You need to stop."
00:11:55.61\00:12:00.32
You need stop sinning.
00:12:00.35\00:12:02.38
Wow, great advice. Right.
00:12:02.42\00:12:04.42
I was like well, can
you expound upon that.
00:12:04.45\00:12:08.49
I mean, what do you mean?
00:12:08.52\00:12:09.86
You know, this
is who I am inside,
00:12:09.89\00:12:11.53
what do I do with who I am?
00:12:11.56\00:12:12.99
You know, there
was no understanding
00:12:13.03\00:12:14.53
about this problem.
00:12:14.56\00:12:15.90
And, Ron, for
you as a young adult?
00:12:15.93\00:12:17.90
As a young adult?
00:12:17.93\00:12:20.17
As a young adult,
00:12:20.20\00:12:21.67
in my situation
it is a bit different
00:12:21.70\00:12:23.94
because I was so
private about my confusion
00:12:23.97\00:12:28.48
and though I was--
00:12:28.51\00:12:29.84
Was your privacy
00:12:29.88\00:12:31.58
do you think that, that
was really covering up shame
00:12:31.61\00:12:33.95
that you or maybe even
that you didn't feel safe
00:12:33.98\00:12:37.05
to share what was going on?
00:12:37.09\00:12:38.62
Yes. Okay.
00:12:38.65\00:12:39.99
And when I was teased and mocked
00:12:40.02\00:12:43.12
it was not-- I
was even call sissy
00:12:43.16\00:12:45.89
because of being musical
00:12:45.93\00:12:47.26
and playing the
piano and so forth.
00:12:47.30\00:12:49.10
But it was more of just bullying
00:12:49.13\00:12:52.07
than really
accusing me of being gay.
00:12:52.10\00:12:54.54
No one had any idea
00:12:54.57\00:12:55.90
what I was
struggling with in my mind.
00:12:55.94\00:12:58.47
And I grew up, even
with all of my confusion,
00:12:58.51\00:13:00.94
I was a very
spiritual young person.
00:13:00.98\00:13:03.24
I was always
involved in church activities.
00:13:03.28\00:13:06.65
I was a church, in
Sabbath school pianist
00:13:06.68\00:13:09.65
when I was very young
00:13:09.68\00:13:11.39
and very involved
in all of these things.
00:13:11.42\00:13:13.52
And so there was no--
I would say in my case,
00:13:13.56\00:13:17.76
there was no ministering
to me because no one knew
00:13:17.79\00:13:22.13
and we'll talk about
that a little bit later,
00:13:22.16\00:13:24.23
but the
ministering that I received
00:13:24.27\00:13:26.94
was just general ministry
00:13:26.97\00:13:28.77
about growing up
in the church culture.
00:13:28.80\00:13:31.54
I know that I
wanted Jesus in my heart
00:13:31.57\00:13:34.44
I wanted
deliverance from the feelings
00:13:34.48\00:13:36.88
that, that I was experiencing.
00:13:36.91\00:13:39.95
I know that as a
young adult person
00:13:39.98\00:13:41.85
I did the behavior
modification thing.
00:13:41.88\00:13:44.09
I got a girlfriend, you
know, I looked apart, you know,
00:13:44.12\00:13:48.49
I am sure that I had mannerisms
that people were picking up on
00:13:48.52\00:13:51.13
but I had a good cover.
00:13:51.16\00:13:53.16
And so I remember
being 17 years old
00:13:53.19\00:13:55.33
praying that God
would take my life.
00:13:55.36\00:13:57.27
I was doing behavioral
things like not watching TV,
00:13:57.30\00:14:00.94
I was a vegetarian
00:14:00.97\00:14:02.30
and, you know, all
these outward things
00:14:02.34\00:14:04.87
that would look
like I was spiritual
00:14:04.91\00:14:06.41
but I was still struggling
00:14:06.44\00:14:07.78
with fantasy and
masturbation inside
00:14:07.81\00:14:10.41
and I prayed that
God would take my life.
00:14:10.45\00:14:12.38
And because He
didn't take my life at 17,
00:14:12.41\00:14:14.45
I knew what was coming.
00:14:14.48\00:14:15.95
I need a boy who gotten
hit in the face with a pie
00:14:15.98\00:14:18.29
because of gay activists,
00:14:18.32\00:14:20.32
the riots at
Stonewall were happening.
00:14:20.36\00:14:23.22
I saw homosexuality
coming to the forefront.
00:14:23.26\00:14:26.39
I didn't want it.
00:14:26.43\00:14:27.76
But I knew I was
going towards that.
00:14:27.80\00:14:30.27
And even when I
came into the gay life,
00:14:30.30\00:14:32.10
being in the gay pride parades
and marching on Washington
00:14:32.13\00:14:35.27
when President
Clinton was inaugurated,
00:14:35.30\00:14:38.04
I remember
looking at the Christians
00:14:38.07\00:14:39.87
on the side of the road
00:14:39.91\00:14:41.24
holding up their signs that said
00:14:41.28\00:14:42.61
"God hates
homosexuals" and "Burn in hell"
00:14:42.64\00:14:46.41
and I thought to myself,
00:14:46.45\00:14:48.48
wow, here I was in a community
00:14:48.52\00:14:50.65
of homosexuals,
with friends of mine
00:14:50.69\00:14:52.35
and I thought this
is who my family is
00:14:52.39\00:14:54.99
and I remember thinking
00:14:55.02\00:14:56.36
how sad that I
was once connected
00:14:56.39\00:14:58.19
to those type of people.
00:14:58.23\00:15:00.10
Even though
they only represented
00:15:00.13\00:15:01.80
a very small percentage
of Christian community,
00:15:01.83\00:15:04.70
the sad thing was
00:15:04.73\00:15:06.07
that was the only
voice I was hearing.
00:15:06.10\00:15:07.67
I wasn't hearing about
redemption for homosexuals.
00:15:07.70\00:15:10.31
All I was hearing
about was the damnation
00:15:10.34\00:15:12.57
and the-- and the judgment.
00:15:12.61\00:15:15.08
And so what
changed that for you?
00:15:15.11\00:15:17.91
What I want to talk about now
00:15:17.95\00:15:19.28
is how was it that
God was able to reach you?
00:15:19.31\00:15:22.45
Well, you know,
00:15:25.52\00:15:27.42
God will intervene thankfully.
00:15:27.46\00:15:30.33
You know, God
intervenes in our lives.
00:15:30.36\00:15:32.56
You know, when the
church hasn't been successful
00:15:32.59\00:15:34.76
at reaching out, you
know, God is taking somebody
00:15:34.80\00:15:38.17
who was in the gutter
and has brought them back
00:15:38.20\00:15:41.67
and said, "You know what,
00:15:41.70\00:15:43.04
I'll lift you up
into high places."
00:15:43.07\00:15:46.07
If your mind is on focus on me
00:15:46.11\00:15:50.48
and the healing
that I am giving you
00:15:50.51\00:15:52.08
I'm providing you,
00:15:52.11\00:15:53.88
God is taking
and doing something
00:15:53.92\00:15:57.09
that I never dreamed possible.
00:15:57.12\00:15:59.19
But if God reached me through,
00:15:59.22\00:16:01.09
through this
divine intervention,
00:16:01.12\00:16:02.56
you know, He was through
the process of elimination.
00:16:02.59\00:16:05.13
All the
distractions of the world
00:16:05.16\00:16:06.63
finally came to an end with
the dying of all of my friends
00:16:06.66\00:16:11.20
and I recognize that
none of them were alive
00:16:11.23\00:16:13.40
and I sat there
and I contemplated--
00:16:13.44\00:16:15.37
Why were they not alive, Wayne?
00:16:15.40\00:16:16.94
Due to AIDS. Okay.
00:16:16.97\00:16:18.37
And I had
00:16:18.41\00:16:22.38
just the same
reason as to as them,
00:16:22.41\00:16:26.08
I should not have
been alive. That's right.
00:16:26.11\00:16:27.45
I should not have been alive.
00:16:27.48\00:16:29.38
I've engaged in more
sexual activity in my life
00:16:29.42\00:16:33.62
than anybody I know, you know.
00:16:33.66\00:16:36.76
Wait, Ron, for the record
00:16:36.79\00:16:38.59
what was your occupation
also, during this time?
00:16:38.63\00:16:41.30
I was a male
prostitute. Thank you.
00:16:41.33\00:16:44.07
Ron, would you fill us in
quickly if you could about
00:16:44.10\00:16:47.27
where you were at
when Jesus found you?
00:16:47.30\00:16:48.64
Okay.
00:16:48.67\00:16:50.01
First of all, I mean--
like you were talking about
00:16:50.04\00:16:51.37
the behavior modification,
I did all of those things.
00:16:51.41\00:16:53.88
I graduated from college
with a degree in theology.
00:16:53.91\00:16:56.44
I'm married. I had children.
00:16:56.48\00:16:58.41
I made all those good choices
and still went into the world.
00:16:58.45\00:17:02.78
Yeah.
00:17:02.82\00:17:04.15
But it was through
divine intervention.
00:17:04.19\00:17:06.59
The Lord reached out to me,
00:17:06.62\00:17:08.46
specifically
through recurring nightmare
00:17:08.49\00:17:10.63
of living through the
coming of Jesus as a lost person
00:17:10.66\00:17:13.53
and I didn't know where to go
00:17:13.56\00:17:14.90
when I was wanting to
come out of it for help because
00:17:14.93\00:17:18.50
everyone thought I
could not be changed.
00:17:18.53\00:17:20.47
So I ended up
just going to the Word.
00:17:20.50\00:17:22.47
I went to my knees, I
went to the Word of God
00:17:22.50\00:17:24.77
and the Lord and I
worked this out together
00:17:24.81\00:17:27.18
and I think that's
why all three of us
00:17:27.21\00:17:28.81
have such a powerful
presentation here is because
00:17:28.84\00:17:32.45
we dug for our answers.
00:17:32.48\00:17:35.85
We didn't go through
therapy. We went to God
00:17:35.88\00:17:40.39
and God gave us the
answers through His Word.
00:17:40.42\00:17:42.96
Yeah, I think you'd agree
with me but God came to me,
00:17:42.99\00:17:46.36
I wasn't looking for it.
00:17:46.39\00:17:47.96
I believe that
that like both of you,
00:17:48.00\00:17:50.57
you had parents that
we're praying for you,
00:17:50.60\00:17:52.23
I had sisters they
were praying for me
00:17:52.27\00:17:53.84
and when that time was right
00:17:53.87\00:17:55.44
God knew that He was
bringing it around again
00:17:55.47\00:17:57.54
and He plucked me out of that.
00:17:57.57\00:17:59.37
He was pursuing me
long before I pursued Him.
00:17:59.41\00:18:01.44
But we went to
Him for the answers.
00:18:01.48\00:18:02.81
That's right.
00:18:02.84\00:18:04.18
He drew us to the point
00:18:04.21\00:18:05.65
where we
decided we need answers.
00:18:05.68\00:18:07.88
We find them in the Word of God
00:18:07.92\00:18:09.25
and through the
guidance of the Holy Spirit.
00:18:09.28\00:18:10.62
Thank you.
00:18:10.65\00:18:11.99
So for me, when I came,
00:18:12.02\00:18:13.36
when I got baptized into
the church culture again,
00:18:13.39\00:18:16.02
I basically assumed the
things were the same way
00:18:16.06\00:18:19.09
that they were when I
left church when I was 20.
00:18:19.13\00:18:21.90
So now I'm 40-years-old,
I'm back in church culture
00:18:21.93\00:18:24.63
in the same denomination
00:18:24.67\00:18:26.13
and I was very closeted even
about my coming forth because
00:18:26.17\00:18:30.31
again I didn't
think I could change
00:18:30.34\00:18:31.91
and I basically
understood, you know,
00:18:31.94\00:18:33.98
the biblical
understanding of homosexuality.
00:18:34.01\00:18:36.04
So while I still had a boyfriend
00:18:36.08\00:18:37.78
and a sexual addiction,
you know, my shame kept me
00:18:37.81\00:18:41.35
going to church
and then running home.
00:18:41.38\00:18:43.12
But what happened is
God was still reaching out
00:18:43.15\00:18:44.95
and He's still brought
into on my understanding.
00:18:44.99\00:18:48.12
I could glean
something from a sermon
00:18:48.16\00:18:49.89
or from something
that I was reading
00:18:49.92\00:18:52.06
where I started to see
that He had more in store for me
00:18:52.09\00:18:54.30
than I did for myself.
00:18:54.33\00:18:55.66
Well, I didn't
choose to be straight,
00:18:55.70\00:18:57.03
I just chose Christ
00:18:57.07\00:18:58.40
and He brought
me on this journey
00:18:58.43\00:18:59.77
into more understanding.
00:18:59.80\00:19:01.57
So the church again,
00:19:01.60\00:19:03.61
wasn't able to
minister to my need.
00:19:03.64\00:19:05.31
They didn't recognize
what I was going through
00:19:05.34\00:19:07.58
and they didn't
even have a cure.
00:19:07.61\00:19:10.05
One of the things
that we say in our ministry
00:19:10.08\00:19:12.05
is quit telling me
what I'm doing is wrong
00:19:12.08\00:19:14.52
and show me that
there's a way out.
00:19:14.55\00:19:15.98
And so what I want to
establish now very quickly
00:19:16.02\00:19:18.55
because our
time is running short
00:19:18.59\00:19:19.92
and we have so much to cover.
00:19:19.95\00:19:21.42
Wayne, quickly what was
church culture like for you
00:19:21.46\00:19:24.13
when you first came in?
00:19:24.16\00:19:26.26
Well, it was the expectation
that you would be baptized
00:19:26.29\00:19:30.50
going to the water
gay and come up straight.
00:19:30.53\00:19:32.97
I thought--
00:19:33.00\00:19:34.34
How did that
work for you, Wayne?
00:19:34.37\00:19:35.70
It didn't work out real well.
00:19:35.74\00:19:37.51
Excuse me.
00:19:37.54\00:19:39.67
There was this
expectation there, you know,
00:19:39.71\00:19:41.61
since God had
done the work, right,
00:19:41.64\00:19:43.24
God done the intervention.
00:19:43.28\00:19:44.68
The church was kind of
like, we didn't have to do this.
00:19:44.71\00:19:47.62
And so they
weren't ready for me.
00:19:47.65\00:19:50.02
They weren't ready for the fact
that God was gonna turn around
00:19:50.05\00:19:52.59
and use me to begin to show ways
00:19:52.62\00:19:55.72
that God can reach out to people
00:19:55.76\00:19:57.43
who are same-sex attracted.
00:19:57.46\00:19:59.06
There's no
resources, there are no,
00:19:59.09\00:20:01.26
there's nobody there that
has the experience to know
00:20:01.30\00:20:04.27
what the walk is
coming back to Jesus Christ.
00:20:04.30\00:20:07.30
Wayne, one of the
things that I've heard you say
00:20:07.34\00:20:09.64
as we've talked before
00:20:09.67\00:20:11.01
is there was actually a
church official that said,
00:20:11.04\00:20:13.51
"I know you've got
a really great story
00:20:13.54\00:20:15.51
but can't you just
keep it to yourself?"
00:20:15.54\00:20:17.25
Yeah. Is that right?
00:20:17.28\00:20:18.61
Yes, he thanked me for my
courage to be able to share
00:20:18.65\00:20:22.48
what was on my heart
but he said, you know,
00:20:22.52\00:20:26.15
while you have this going
on in your life, you know,
00:20:26.19\00:20:28.56
do you really
have to talk about it?
00:20:28.59\00:20:30.99
And, you know, of
course, I picked up
00:20:31.03\00:20:32.43
my jaw off the
ground I said, you know,
00:20:32.46\00:20:35.53
"This is exactly why
we are in the predicament
00:20:35.56\00:20:39.03
we're in because if
we don't talk about this,
00:20:39.07\00:20:42.67
we don't help
another child in the church,
00:20:42.70\00:20:46.64
a young teen, a young adult.
00:20:46.68\00:20:49.11
They're gonna keep this inside,
00:20:49.14\00:20:50.48
they are gonna keep
this bottled inside,
00:20:50.51\00:20:51.85
but they're gonna
bolt at some point because
00:20:51.88\00:20:54.02
the church isn't providing them
00:20:54.05\00:20:56.55
with the, what
they need to come back
00:20:56.58\00:20:59.12
and engage in with Jesus.
00:20:59.15\00:21:02.19
Right.
00:21:02.22\00:21:03.56
So, Ron, Wayne
and I, one of issues
00:21:03.59\00:21:05.73
that we have is
this high sensitivity.
00:21:05.76\00:21:08.63
You know, we find
offense easily because
00:21:08.66\00:21:11.03
up all the offense that we've
incurred along our young life.
00:21:11.07\00:21:13.84
But it seems
that your experience
00:21:13.87\00:21:15.27
come back into the
church very quickly,
00:21:15.30\00:21:17.34
you were able to
bulldoze through some of that.
00:21:17.37\00:21:19.51
Yeah, it was different. Okay.
00:21:19.54\00:21:22.08
You know, when I
came back into the church,
00:21:22.11\00:21:24.31
they were not
there to assist me.
00:21:24.35\00:21:26.85
I came in with so much
zeal and so much excitement
00:21:26.88\00:21:30.29
because of the answers
that I had found for myself
00:21:30.32\00:21:33.36
even before I was baptized
00:21:33.39\00:21:35.02
it was like the church was
more in awe rather than to help,
00:21:35.06\00:21:38.99
they had me teaching.
00:21:39.03\00:21:40.63
But before I was baptized I
was teaching Sabbath school,
00:21:40.66\00:21:43.13
they didn't know I
had not been baptized
00:21:43.16\00:21:44.83
because I was visiting a
church participating so much,
00:21:44.87\00:21:47.74
they assumed that I
was an active church member
00:21:47.77\00:21:50.51
and I had not
even been baptized.
00:21:50.54\00:21:52.07
Is it possible that the
moving of the Holy Spirit
00:21:52.11\00:21:54.71
allow that circumstance?
00:21:54.74\00:21:56.21
Yes. Yes, absolutely.
00:21:56.24\00:21:59.05
I think the Lord,
because of the way
00:21:59.08\00:22:00.98
He brought me in
through divine intervention,
00:22:01.02\00:22:03.59
He realized I had
something to offer
00:22:03.62\00:22:05.79
and I really believe that
that's what strengthens us
00:22:05.82\00:22:09.49
is that we get involved,
00:22:09.52\00:22:10.86
and we help
others to overcome sin,
00:22:10.89\00:22:12.53
we share what the
Lord has done in our lives
00:22:12.56\00:22:14.60
and the church sits--
not sits back but I mean,
00:22:14.63\00:22:17.87
they are receptive
00:22:17.90\00:22:19.60
if they are not equipped to help
00:22:19.63\00:22:21.90
they were open to hear.
00:22:21.94\00:22:23.30
And I think that was
very important for me
00:22:23.34\00:22:25.57
to find a receptive.
00:22:25.61\00:22:26.94
They received me with open arms
00:22:26.98\00:22:29.24
but they didn't
know what to do to help,
00:22:29.28\00:22:32.08
so I end up helping them.
00:22:32.11\00:22:33.45
So, Ron, that's a perfect point
00:22:33.48\00:22:34.98
because that's where
I want to go with this.
00:22:35.02\00:22:37.09
You know, God was
already moving in your life
00:22:37.12\00:22:39.42
and He brought
you an opportunity
00:22:39.45\00:22:40.86
to experience more
restoration by getting you busy.
00:22:40.89\00:22:43.43
And so what I want to ask now
00:22:43.46\00:22:45.39
for me coming
back into the church,
00:22:45.43\00:22:47.40
I've actually been
involved in a church
00:22:47.43\00:22:48.86
that knew what my history was
00:22:48.90\00:22:50.87
and I had an elder
doctor who was on the board
00:22:50.90\00:22:54.77
as I was a Sabbath
school superintendent,
00:22:54.80\00:22:56.47
as I was asking
for men's ministry
00:22:56.50\00:22:58.67
look down his nose at me and say
00:22:58.71\00:23:00.88
"I don't want to be
running around in the woods
00:23:00.91\00:23:02.24
like a bunch a gay men."
00:23:02.28\00:23:03.61
And I knew that that was
pointed at me specifically.
00:23:03.65\00:23:06.31
That was incredibly crushing
00:23:06.35\00:23:07.85
not only to my
spirit as a fellow Christian
00:23:07.88\00:23:10.92
and a member of this body,
I totally felt isolated again.
00:23:10.95\00:23:14.26
All of the history of
rejection came back again
00:23:14.29\00:23:17.09
but it forced me on my
knees to reconcile with God
00:23:17.13\00:23:20.30
that I was serving
Him and not the church.
00:23:20.33\00:23:22.70
And that as I,
as I followed Christ
00:23:22.73\00:23:25.53
He restored
forgiveness for this,
00:23:25.57\00:23:27.20
this doctor
that was on the board
00:23:27.24\00:23:28.70
and also gave me a purpose
00:23:28.74\00:23:30.07
and I recognize that
that purpose came from Him.
00:23:30.11\00:23:32.57
What would have made
the biggest difference,
00:23:32.61\00:23:36.21
very quickly if you would,
00:23:36.24\00:23:38.35
when you were coming back
00:23:38.38\00:23:39.71
that would have made a huge
difference in your recovery,
00:23:39.75\00:23:42.05
Wayne?
00:23:42.08\00:23:43.72
Communication
showing that we love you,
00:23:43.75\00:23:47.09
we are God's
children, we're as His family,
00:23:47.12\00:23:49.99
we want to embrace you,
00:23:50.03\00:23:51.69
we want you to know
that we are all level at the,
00:23:51.73\00:23:54.23
at the foot of cross.
00:23:54.26\00:23:55.60
Amen. And, Ron?
00:23:55.63\00:23:57.23
I believe that had
the church been at least
00:23:57.27\00:24:00.54
talking about the issue,
00:24:00.57\00:24:03.74
people like us
would have known, at least
00:24:03.77\00:24:05.31
the church is
interested, they're trying.
00:24:05.34\00:24:08.21
They didn't even have
to have all of the answers.
00:24:08.24\00:24:10.88
If the church had just
been open to talking about it,
00:24:10.91\00:24:14.32
researching it, being
willing to find answers if so
00:24:14.35\00:24:18.15
but see, we didn't know
anyone even talking about it.
00:24:18.19\00:24:21.72
There is just this
silence on the issue.
00:24:21.76\00:24:24.99
What's incredible
is Wayne said yesterday
00:24:25.03\00:24:28.60
that you can't
give what you don't have
00:24:28.63\00:24:31.50
and how sad because what happen
is we've met with resistance
00:24:31.53\00:24:35.20
even when we came back
into church culture because
00:24:35.24\00:24:39.21
Jesus was working on our
hearts bringing us back in.
00:24:39.24\00:24:41.88
But then we come in
00:24:41.91\00:24:43.24
and then we're
feeling the resistance again
00:24:43.28\00:24:44.75
and Jesus has to push
past what should be the agents
00:24:44.78\00:24:48.35
that are cooperating with Him
00:24:48.38\00:24:49.72
which should have been
God with skin on if you would
00:24:49.75\00:24:52.15
to reach out and pull us in
00:24:52.19\00:24:54.16
and instead what happens is
00:24:54.19\00:24:55.52
as we come back
in to church culture,
00:24:55.56\00:24:56.99
we're feeling this resistance,
00:24:57.03\00:24:58.36
this tide if you
would to go against us
00:24:58.39\00:25:00.63
which basically pushed
us back into Christ arms.
00:25:00.66\00:25:03.23
But for someone now
who's watching out there,
00:25:03.26\00:25:05.87
they're maybe struggling
with the same things that we are
00:25:05.90\00:25:08.10
or maybe be entering
back into church culture,
00:25:08.14\00:25:10.77
whether they struggle
with homosexuality or adultery
00:25:10.81\00:25:13.74
or whatever sin is out there.
00:25:13.78\00:25:15.71
What would you say,
00:25:15.74\00:25:18.15
would make the
biggest difference
00:25:18.18\00:25:19.51
for their church culture
00:25:19.55\00:25:20.88
to bring around this
attitude of love and acceptance
00:25:20.92\00:25:25.29
and what did you say, Wayne,
00:25:25.32\00:25:26.89
it kind of level the
playing ground at the cross
00:25:26.92\00:25:29.49
that we all
recognize that we're sinners
00:25:29.52\00:25:31.29
and that we have needs?
00:25:31.33\00:25:32.69
Yeah, begin to look to
ministries on this issue.
00:25:32.73\00:25:37.23
You know, Coming Out Ministries
00:25:37.27\00:25:38.73
is one of those ministries
where we are a resource now
00:25:38.77\00:25:42.40
where there have
been no resources.
00:25:42.44\00:25:44.81
Now we are able to go out,
00:25:44.84\00:25:46.17
we are able to speak in churches
00:25:46.21\00:25:47.98
and colleges and schools and--
00:25:48.01\00:25:49.91
Wayne, what's that
scripture in Revelation
00:25:49.94\00:25:52.15
that ties into that?
00:25:52.18\00:25:53.52
Come on say. Revelation 12:11.
00:25:53.55\00:25:55.65
That's right. Say it.
00:25:55.68\00:25:57.75
They overcame--
00:25:57.79\00:25:59.12
"They overcame him by
the word of their testimony."
00:25:59.15\00:26:00.76
And?
00:26:00.79\00:26:02.12
"And the blood of the
Lamb of Jesus Christ."
00:26:02.16\00:26:03.49
That's right. That's right.
00:26:03.53\00:26:04.86
And so, Ron, what
would your advice be?
00:26:04.89\00:26:07.63
To what equip the church? Yes.
00:26:07.66\00:26:10.77
What would make a
difference for somebody
00:26:10.80\00:26:12.30
coming into church culture
00:26:12.33\00:26:14.14
instead of
getting the resistance
00:26:14.17\00:26:15.57
from the church itself
but to receive them in,
00:26:15.60\00:26:18.61
what would you say would be
00:26:18.64\00:26:20.48
something that the church itself
00:26:20.51\00:26:21.84
could focus on to make
that transition easier?
00:26:21.88\00:26:24.58
Well, again, I just say
that the church needs to be open
00:26:24.61\00:26:27.52
to deal with a sinner
with whatever issue he has.
00:26:27.55\00:26:31.79
We need to not
exclude any sinner
00:26:31.82\00:26:33.99
because it's something
that we feel squeamish about.
00:26:34.02\00:26:36.73
Yes. Yes.
00:26:36.76\00:26:38.09
Because every one of
us finds in someone else
00:26:38.13\00:26:40.50
a repulsive sin.
00:26:40.53\00:26:43.13
My sin is not
repulsive to me but yours maybe
00:26:43.16\00:26:47.30
and the church
needs to be a place
00:26:47.34\00:26:48.80
where we don't push anyone
away because of repulsion.
00:26:48.84\00:26:52.24
We need to get
above that, get over that
00:26:52.27\00:26:56.01
and accept that the
church is like a hospital
00:26:56.04\00:26:58.61
and you bring in people of
all levels of spiritual need
00:26:58.65\00:27:01.78
and spiritual
growth and work together
00:27:01.82\00:27:03.99
for the betterment of
the Christian community.
00:27:04.02\00:27:06.45
So, Ron, how perfect
because what that does say to me
00:27:06.49\00:27:09.46
is at we don't have to
focus on particular sense
00:27:09.49\00:27:12.53
and we don't have to
necessarily have classes
00:27:12.56\00:27:14.36
just for redeeming homosexuals
00:27:14.40\00:27:16.46
or just for
redeeming prostitutes
00:27:16.50\00:27:18.43
or just redeeming gossipers
00:27:18.47\00:27:20.24
whether they're
in the church or not.
00:27:20.27\00:27:21.84
But what we do is
as we recognize that
00:27:21.87\00:27:23.97
we're all on the
same playing field
00:27:24.01\00:27:25.34
that that we're all sinners
00:27:25.37\00:27:26.88
then what that
automatically does,
00:27:26.91\00:27:28.28
is that starts
to create this need
00:27:28.31\00:27:30.98
to be filled
with the Holy Spirit
00:27:31.01\00:27:33.68
and allow the Lord to lead
us and to love every human being
00:27:33.72\00:27:37.15
no matter what
background that they're from.
00:27:37.19\00:27:39.62
So, Wayne and Ron,
from Coming Out Ministries
00:27:39.65\00:27:42.19
along with myself
on a thank you guys,
00:27:42.22\00:27:44.23
for this incredible
conversation that we've had
00:27:44.26\00:27:47.46
and we invite you to come back
00:27:47.50\00:27:48.90
and enjoy more
programs with Pure Choices
00:27:48.93\00:27:51.93
and thanks again for coming.
00:27:51.97\00:27:53.30