The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
00:00:01.36\00:00:03.60
Parents are
cautioned that some material
00:00:03.63\00:00:05.40
may be too candid
for younger children.
00:00:05.43\00:00:07.60
I am Mike Carducci
with Coming Out Ministries,
00:00:42.44\00:00:44.97
your host for
today's program Pure Choices.
00:00:45.01\00:00:47.64
I have with me my friend
and colleague Wayne Blakely
00:00:47.68\00:00:50.15
from Coming Out Ministries.
00:00:50.18\00:00:51.51
And we want to talk about Jesus
being our reparative therapist.
00:00:51.55\00:00:56.55
That may not sound very clear
to a lot of people out there
00:00:56.58\00:01:00.19
that may be
watching this program.
00:01:00.22\00:01:01.62
Wayne, give me an idea,
what is reparative therapy?
00:01:01.66\00:01:05.39
How long do we
have? Half an hour.
00:01:05.43\00:01:07.73
Okay.
00:01:07.76\00:01:09.10
Well, you know, we want to
take a look at the recent law
00:01:09.13\00:01:12.90
that was passed
here in California
00:01:12.93\00:01:15.60
about reparative therapy
00:01:15.64\00:01:18.57
not actually
being allowed anymore
00:01:18.61\00:01:20.28
in the state of California.
00:01:20.31\00:01:22.04
Can you give me just an
idea though for our viewers
00:01:22.08\00:01:24.21
who don't understand,
what is reparative therapy?
00:01:24.25\00:01:27.05
That would be in most
reparative therapy circles,
00:01:27.08\00:01:32.05
the idea that
you can take somebody
00:01:32.09\00:01:34.32
who is gay and
make them straight.
00:01:34.36\00:01:38.49
What would that be,
00:01:38.53\00:01:39.86
what would that
type of therapy be?
00:01:39.89\00:01:41.23
You know, there's all kinds
00:01:41.26\00:01:42.60
of different
therapies involved in,
00:01:42.63\00:01:45.50
the promise is
that we can rewire you
00:01:45.53\00:01:49.00
and get you connected
to your appropriate gender.
00:01:49.04\00:01:52.61
And in doing so
one of the things
00:01:52.64\00:01:55.44
I recently saw a film,
00:01:55.48\00:01:57.55
Christian based film
00:01:57.58\00:01:59.25
where one of the
partners in the film said,
00:01:59.28\00:02:02.58
"You know, I went
through five years
00:02:02.62\00:02:04.25
of reparative therapy."
00:02:04.29\00:02:06.05
And so he opens
up and shows a book
00:02:06.09\00:02:08.66
of a guy laying
in his father's arms,
00:02:08.69\00:02:11.56
and the idea is
that if you're rocked
00:02:11.59\00:02:13.43
in your father's arms
over a period of time,
00:02:13.46\00:02:16.36
of therapy time
00:02:16.40\00:02:17.83
that you will no
longer want to engage
00:02:17.87\00:02:20.04
in intimacy with a male, a
sexual intimacy with a male.
00:02:20.07\00:02:24.04
And so that really
kind of ruined him,
00:02:24.07\00:02:26.88
he went through
five years of this.
00:02:26.91\00:02:28.91
And, you know, I was
at the film where this...
00:02:28.94\00:02:31.88
where he was actually
00:02:31.91\00:02:34.58
and I went to him
afterwards and I said,
00:02:34.62\00:02:36.72
"You know, I'm really sorry
00:02:36.75\00:02:38.65
that you went through that
00:02:38.69\00:02:40.02
because that's not
the kind of therapy
00:02:40.06\00:02:42.56
that would engage
you with Jesus Christ.
00:02:42.59\00:02:44.63
That's just trying to set
you right in some kind of idea
00:02:44.66\00:02:49.16
about the
appropriate sexual function
00:02:49.20\00:02:52.53
that you're supposed to have."
00:02:52.57\00:02:54.20
And to me
00:02:54.24\00:02:55.67
it's kind of
ridiculous that going things
00:02:55.70\00:02:57.47
from that angle as
opposed to going through therapy
00:02:57.51\00:03:02.18
and getting my life back
00:03:02.21\00:03:03.98
in right
standing with Jesus Christ
00:03:04.01\00:03:05.78
in what my
gender is through him.
00:03:05.81\00:03:08.18
I see.
00:03:08.22\00:03:09.78
Is it true that some
reparative therapy includes men
00:03:09.82\00:03:13.99
that are homosexual to
watch heterosexual pornography?
00:03:14.02\00:03:18.13
Yes, that's one of
the therapies involved.
00:03:18.16\00:03:20.16
And they believe
that if they immerse you
00:03:20.20\00:03:22.66
in this that you
will finally get it,
00:03:22.70\00:03:25.07
you know, your mind
will get things wired
00:03:25.10\00:03:26.97
so that you will want to
engage in heterosexual sex.
00:03:27.00\00:03:31.51
But if this is being
used as a therapy for someone
00:03:31.54\00:03:35.04
who's coming out of a gay life
00:03:35.08\00:03:37.31
into engaging
into a relationship
00:03:37.35\00:03:41.18
with Jesus Christ
now, my question is still,
00:03:41.22\00:03:43.95
why are we putting
the cart before the horse?
00:03:43.99\00:03:46.76
Isn't it true that Jesus says
00:03:46.79\00:03:48.92
that we only
need to fall in love
00:03:48.96\00:03:52.83
with one person for our life,
one person of the opposite sex?
00:03:52.86\00:03:57.83
We don't need to fall in
love with the entire population
00:03:57.87\00:04:01.27
of the opposite sex
00:04:01.30\00:04:02.90
and that God will go
about putting that person
00:04:02.94\00:04:05.94
in front of us
00:04:05.97\00:04:07.31
when it's according to His plan.
00:04:07.34\00:04:09.78
And not that we should go about
this from a therapy standpoint
00:04:09.81\00:04:14.12
that we're
trying to wire somebody
00:04:14.15\00:04:15.58
so that they want to
engage in sexual relationships
00:04:15.62\00:04:19.09
with the opposite sex,
because if you do that,
00:04:19.12\00:04:21.76
you accomplish that who's to say
00:04:21.79\00:04:24.03
that I'm not going to now want
to start chasing every woman
00:04:24.06\00:04:26.63
that I see
00:04:26.66\00:04:28.00
instead of just
being suited for one woman.
00:04:28.03\00:04:31.40
And the damage in this
00:04:31.43\00:04:32.97
that has been caused
over time is phenomenal
00:04:33.00\00:04:36.71
and that's why it's
been turned into a law now
00:04:36.74\00:04:39.41
that in the state of California
that this kind of therapy
00:04:39.44\00:04:41.84
is not being allowed.
00:04:41.88\00:04:43.21
There's been a lot of people
00:04:43.24\00:04:44.58
who've ended up
committing suicide
00:04:44.61\00:04:46.11
because of these
approaches and techniques.
00:04:46.15\00:04:48.32
All right.
00:04:48.35\00:04:49.68
So there's
definitely a difference between
00:04:49.72\00:04:51.82
the Christian
approach to restoration, right,
00:04:51.85\00:04:54.42
and the reparative therapy.
00:04:54.46\00:04:56.66
So why would the
law in California
00:04:56.69\00:05:00.36
have anything to
do with Christianity?
00:05:00.40\00:05:03.63
You know, I don't know,
00:05:03.67\00:05:05.00
well, because
there have been people
00:05:05.03\00:05:07.14
under the guise
00:05:07.17\00:05:10.67
of Christianity
00:05:10.71\00:05:13.48
that have maybe been using
00:05:13.51\00:05:14.84
some of these techniques
00:05:14.88\00:05:17.65
in thinking that
they're doing the right thing.
00:05:17.68\00:05:19.58
Again, not understanding
00:05:19.61\00:05:21.65
what it is that
Jesus is calling us to
00:05:21.68\00:05:24.12
and the healing that is promised
00:05:24.15\00:05:25.49
through Jesus Christ.
00:05:25.52\00:05:26.86
There are various ways
00:05:26.89\00:05:28.22
that we can help
people reconnect with Jesus
00:05:28.26\00:05:30.36
and with their own
masculinity or femininity
00:05:30.39\00:05:35.10
if you're a woman
00:05:35.13\00:05:36.46
who's wanting to
come back and get rewired
00:05:36.50\00:05:39.10
according to God's plan for you.
00:05:39.13\00:05:41.37
But by the application
00:05:41.40\00:05:42.80
of some of these
bizarre techniques,
00:05:42.84\00:05:47.31
a lot of them aren't done
under Christianity at all.
00:05:47.34\00:05:50.35
I guess that's one
of the main points here
00:05:50.38\00:05:52.11
is that there's so
much therapy out there
00:05:52.15\00:05:53.75
that is just saying...
00:05:53.78\00:05:55.88
As a society
00:05:55.92\00:05:57.25
we can go and change somebody's
00:05:57.29\00:05:58.69
sexual preference
and let's just put it
00:05:58.72\00:06:00.89
into the role of
what is more accepted
00:06:00.92\00:06:03.96
so that this person
has a more natural life.
00:06:03.99\00:06:06.63
But I'm looking at it I
guess from the standpoint of,
00:06:06.66\00:06:10.17
from Christianity it
seems odd and awkward to me
00:06:10.20\00:06:15.37
to put sex out there
00:06:15.40\00:06:17.31
as trying to fix the sex problem
00:06:17.34\00:06:19.74
rather than trying
to bring the person
00:06:19.77\00:06:22.04
back into an
intimate relationship
00:06:22.08\00:06:23.91
with Jesus Christ
where He's in charge,
00:06:23.95\00:06:27.55
He's my reparative therapist.
00:06:27.58\00:06:30.09
He's the one that showing me
00:06:30.12\00:06:32.99
by engaging in doing,
00:06:33.02\00:06:36.89
living life
according to His will,
00:06:36.93\00:06:39.73
He's been able to
show me along the way
00:06:39.76\00:06:41.80
in my relationships now
00:06:41.83\00:06:43.23
as they have developed
with men inside my church,
00:06:43.26\00:06:48.34
with men that He
is now putting me
00:06:48.37\00:06:50.37
in touch with as friends,
00:06:50.41\00:06:53.61
who are mentors to me now
and through this mentorship
00:06:53.64\00:06:57.88
I'm finding out about life
not from a sexual relationship
00:06:57.91\00:07:02.05
with another man
00:07:02.08\00:07:03.52
but from a relationship in which
00:07:03.55\00:07:05.55
I become a friend of His
00:07:05.59\00:07:08.02
and have a morally
beautiful relationship
00:07:08.06\00:07:11.86
with this person
instead of the way my life
00:07:11.89\00:07:15.73
was mapped under the deception
00:07:15.76\00:07:17.90
of my feelings that
were brought on by Satan.
00:07:17.93\00:07:20.54
Okay.
00:07:20.57\00:07:21.90
So, Wayne, being,
00:07:21.94\00:07:23.27
you know, members of
Coming Out Ministries,
00:07:23.30\00:07:25.11
we both had been
redeemed from homosexuality.
00:07:25.14\00:07:28.31
What's been incredible
is I didn't even know that,
00:07:28.34\00:07:31.38
you know, God could take away
00:07:31.41\00:07:32.88
the wrong impulses
and the wrong desires
00:07:32.91\00:07:35.02
and He'd give me healthy ones.
00:07:35.05\00:07:36.38
And you know,
we've both been submitted
00:07:36.42\00:07:38.59
to the process of Jesus doing
that work that He needs to do
00:07:38.62\00:07:42.66
and while we didn't
have an instantaneous,
00:07:42.69\00:07:45.36
you know, magic
wand over the head
00:07:45.39\00:07:47.26
if you would
experience and you know,
00:07:47.30\00:07:49.00
we didn't come
up out of the water
00:07:49.03\00:07:50.37
and ready to date
and mate and all of that,
00:07:50.40\00:07:52.70
but as we've
been in that process
00:07:52.73\00:07:54.37
it's been more than
just behavior modification
00:07:54.40\00:07:58.01
which some of
reparative therapy seems
00:07:58.04\00:07:59.87
to mimic is about,
00:07:59.91\00:08:01.71
you know, one of the things
that I did in high school is,
00:08:01.74\00:08:04.21
you know, I
promptly got a girlfriend,
00:08:04.25\00:08:05.85
you know, to make
sure I looked right
00:08:05.88\00:08:07.25
and I thought that,
00:08:07.28\00:08:08.68
you know, even if I engaged in,
00:08:08.72\00:08:11.02
you know, some
petting with my girlfriend
00:08:11.05\00:08:13.39
and, you know, it had
arouse me to a point I thought,
00:08:13.42\00:08:15.32
"Well, maybe if I got married
that all of these feelings
00:08:15.36\00:08:17.69
would go away,"
00:08:17.73\00:08:19.06
and I know that many people
00:08:19.09\00:08:20.60
who struggle with
homosexual tendencies do
00:08:20.63\00:08:23.16
that hoping that
that would be the cure
00:08:23.20\00:08:25.90
when in
actuality it keeps it laden
00:08:25.93\00:08:28.20
and what happens is it ends up
00:08:28.24\00:08:30.51
just kind of busting out
of the seams at a later time.
00:08:30.54\00:08:33.11
And so reparative therapy,
00:08:33.14\00:08:35.44
by what I'm hearing you
say is really not dealing
00:08:35.48\00:08:40.05
with the root cause
00:08:40.08\00:08:41.42
which is, you know,
00:08:41.45\00:08:42.78
allowing Jesus
Christ to do the rewiring.
00:08:42.82\00:08:45.19
Letting behavior modification
00:08:45.22\00:08:46.72
or certain therapies to
tap into some of the reasons
00:08:46.76\00:08:50.39
why we seek male love,
00:08:50.43\00:08:53.33
but yet what
you're saying is that
00:08:53.36\00:08:55.36
there's a different
connection that's vital.
00:08:55.40\00:08:57.47
And so, Wayne, why
is it that that you say
00:08:57.50\00:09:00.34
Jesus is your
reparative therapist?
00:09:00.37\00:09:03.77
Well, because God offers healing
00:09:03.81\00:09:08.01
for any of our inadequacies.
00:09:08.04\00:09:11.98
And as I trust in
Him and I seek His word
00:09:12.01\00:09:16.95
and I begin to
walk with Him daily,
00:09:16.99\00:09:20.19
I see Him
beginning to reshape my life.
00:09:20.22\00:09:22.92
And people ask me today,
00:09:22.96\00:09:24.49
"Oh, so do you
think you'll get married?"
00:09:24.53\00:09:26.19
You know, it's like
everybody wants the proof,
00:09:26.23\00:09:29.23
you know, and then
they'll know for sure
00:09:29.26\00:09:30.77
that if you get married
00:09:30.80\00:09:32.13
that the
healing has taken place.
00:09:32.17\00:09:34.64
And so today I'm not so sure
00:09:34.67\00:09:36.81
that my right
wiring is such that God,
00:09:36.84\00:09:41.44
that has design for me is to,
00:09:41.48\00:09:43.45
you know,
immediately get married
00:09:43.48\00:09:44.81
and then say,
00:09:44.85\00:09:46.18
"Ah, you're fixed
now, you're justified."
00:09:46.21\00:09:48.82
And I think that
00:09:48.85\00:09:50.59
what God has been
saying to me is that,
00:09:50.62\00:09:52.95
"Wayne, I want
for you to come back
00:09:52.99\00:09:55.59
into a relationship with me,
00:09:55.62\00:09:58.09
one in which
your focus is on me.
00:09:58.13\00:10:01.03
Your daily living
is centered in me.
00:10:01.06\00:10:04.90
And don't be surprised
00:10:04.93\00:10:06.94
if I actually
put in front of you
00:10:06.97\00:10:09.34
the one woman as a gift to you."
00:10:09.37\00:10:13.81
How many women?
00:10:13.84\00:10:15.18
The one woman. All right, okay.
00:10:15.21\00:10:16.54
Yeah, just want to make...
00:10:16.58\00:10:17.91
Just want to make sure
that we understand that.
00:10:17.95\00:10:19.41
As we, you know, as a world,
00:10:19.45\00:10:21.08
as a society today
00:10:21.12\00:10:22.45
we have this whole sex
agenda out there that's like,
00:10:22.48\00:10:26.86
we're all going to be having sex
00:10:26.89\00:10:28.89
with multiple partners
00:10:28.92\00:10:30.29
and it's just flashing
at you all over the place.
00:10:30.33\00:10:33.46
Where as God is saying,
00:10:33.50\00:10:34.83
"You know, this
is a gift of intimacy
00:10:34.86\00:10:37.10
that I will engage
you with the person
00:10:37.13\00:10:39.83
that I want you
to fall in love with,
00:10:39.87\00:10:42.37
and if I want you
00:10:42.40\00:10:43.74
to fall in love with this person
00:10:43.77\00:10:45.37
and I have...
00:10:45.41\00:10:46.74
And your focus is on me,
00:10:46.78\00:10:49.51
then I have a
relationship with you
00:10:49.54\00:10:52.58
in which is now become pure
00:10:52.61\00:10:54.35
and you have a right wiring
to be able to see the person
00:10:54.38\00:10:57.65
that I want you to
fall in love with."
00:10:57.69\00:10:59.75
And these feelings
are going to follow.
00:10:59.79\00:11:01.62
They're not going
to have to be something
00:11:01.66\00:11:02.99
that's
programmed by a psychologist
00:11:03.02\00:11:05.29
or psychiatrist
for which has happened,
00:11:05.33\00:11:08.66
that's the goal for
many of these therapies today
00:11:08.70\00:11:11.73
and the person entering it
00:11:11.77\00:11:13.50
may have also just
come back to Jesus Christ.
00:11:13.54\00:11:16.81
And so because
it's out there now,
00:11:16.84\00:11:18.47
I mean, this has been topic,
00:11:18.51\00:11:19.84
a big topic today
00:11:19.87\00:11:21.21
through some of the
larger organizations
00:11:21.24\00:11:23.31
that are dealing
00:11:23.35\00:11:24.68
with the return
of the homosexuals
00:11:24.71\00:11:27.02
coming back into a
relationship with Jesus Christ.
00:11:27.05\00:11:29.58
And some of them are ditching
the reparative therapy books
00:11:29.62\00:11:32.82
because they're beginning to see
00:11:32.85\00:11:34.52
this also has been something
00:11:34.56\00:11:36.12
that has been causing
harm and danger to people
00:11:36.16\00:11:39.83
that they think
that they need to satisfy
00:11:39.86\00:11:42.76
the heterosexual type of look,
00:11:42.80\00:11:49.30
the heterosexual behavior,
00:11:49.34\00:11:51.57
if we can get people engaged
00:11:51.61\00:11:53.01
in that then that
can again be proof
00:11:53.04\00:11:55.28
that the conversion is complete.
00:11:55.31\00:11:56.88
And so I still say this
today as many people are saying
00:11:56.91\00:12:00.92
that the
opposite of homosexuality
00:12:00.95\00:12:03.69
is not
heterosexuality but holiness.
00:12:03.72\00:12:07.12
And I trust God
because I know that God,
00:12:07.16\00:12:10.16
if He wants me to have
00:12:10.19\00:12:12.16
a beautiful woman for me to love
00:12:12.19\00:12:14.43
and He is now
trusting that I have engaged
00:12:14.46\00:12:17.43
in the right
relationship with Him,
00:12:17.47\00:12:19.57
that very well could be a gift,
00:12:19.60\00:12:22.47
a fruit of my
recovery with Jesus Christ
00:12:22.50\00:12:25.27
but not one
00:12:25.31\00:12:26.64
that is orchestrated by mankind,
00:12:26.68\00:12:28.88
but that's actually
been orchestrated by God.
00:12:28.91\00:12:31.51
The beauty of God is
He is the great physician,
00:12:31.55\00:12:34.85
He's our Creator and our Maker.
00:12:34.88\00:12:36.82
And so Jesus is intimate
00:12:36.85\00:12:38.45
with every nuance of your life
00:12:38.49\00:12:41.99
from the moment
that you were born
00:12:42.02\00:12:43.36
even conceived until now,
00:12:43.39\00:12:45.33
so as a great physician
He knows the exact therapy
00:12:45.36\00:12:49.00
that you're in
and that you're under
00:12:49.03\00:12:50.70
and so until the time
that you are to the point
00:12:50.73\00:12:54.17
where you could be in
a healthy relationship
00:12:54.20\00:12:56.34
with one woman, He
knows when that timing is.
00:12:56.37\00:12:59.67
And so as we
submit to that process,
00:12:59.71\00:13:02.14
you know, it's
about Him getting us ready
00:13:02.18\00:13:04.35
and then when the time is right,
00:13:04.38\00:13:06.21
it'll be fruitful,
00:13:06.25\00:13:07.58
it'll be everything
that it was meant to be.
00:13:07.62\00:13:09.85
Our brother said
something yesterday
00:13:09.88\00:13:11.45
that I thought was profound,
00:13:11.49\00:13:12.82
who's been married,
00:13:12.85\00:13:14.19
it was Elder
Raymond King and he said,
00:13:14.22\00:13:16.02
"Isn't it interesting
00:13:16.06\00:13:17.83
that it took
Solomon a 1000 women
00:13:17.86\00:13:20.46
to get what he gets
with just one woman."
00:13:20.50\00:13:23.23
And that was the satisfaction,
00:13:23.26\00:13:25.53
the intimacy
that he was craving.
00:13:25.57\00:13:28.54
He thought by
going to other women
00:13:28.57\00:13:29.90
and we know
00:13:29.94\00:13:31.27
that he had
beautiful women at his disposal
00:13:31.31\00:13:33.44
but we also know that he had men
00:13:33.48\00:13:35.31
in his life as well.
00:13:35.34\00:13:36.68
He said, "Everything
that my eye saw I touched."
00:13:36.71\00:13:39.31
So we know that Solomon
was very degraded sexually
00:13:39.35\00:13:42.32
by the things
that he had beheld.
00:13:42.35\00:13:43.92
But I love the contrast
00:13:43.95\00:13:45.55
that our brother said
yesterday about the fact
00:13:45.59\00:13:47.16
that he chased around
all of these situations
00:13:47.19\00:13:50.23
and never found satisfaction,
00:13:50.26\00:13:51.89
never found the satisfaction
00:13:51.93\00:13:53.26
that our brother
gets with one wife.
00:13:53.29\00:13:55.23
That's right.
00:13:55.26\00:13:56.60
So, you know, it's
interesting to note
00:13:56.63\00:13:58.93
that that Jesus offers a
different type of therapy
00:13:58.97\00:14:03.04
than reparative therapy.
00:14:03.07\00:14:04.97
And so I believe
00:14:05.01\00:14:06.41
that what we're really
trying to differentiate
00:14:06.44\00:14:09.01
is that reparative therapy
00:14:09.04\00:14:10.68
isn't like
Christianity in the sense
00:14:10.71\00:14:13.62
that Jesus wants to do the work
00:14:13.65\00:14:15.08
on the inside.
00:14:15.12\00:14:16.69
One of the things
that we get a lot, Wayne,
00:14:16.72\00:14:18.42
is when we do our
presentations people
00:14:18.45\00:14:20.29
look at us and they go,
00:14:20.32\00:14:21.69
"Are you sure
that you're healed?"
00:14:21.72\00:14:23.09
You know, and
some of the residue
00:14:23.12\00:14:24.73
which is what we call,
00:14:24.76\00:14:26.09
you know, that
ability to still have
00:14:26.13\00:14:28.20
a feminine mannerisms
00:14:28.23\00:14:29.56
or to still have
a flair for color
00:14:29.60\00:14:32.00
or whatever that is,
00:14:32.03\00:14:33.37
you know, we understand
00:14:33.40\00:14:35.54
that that there
are scars to healing
00:14:35.57\00:14:38.27
that when you have a wound
that wound is really a sign
00:14:38.31\00:14:42.04
that there's been
healing taken place.
00:14:42.08\00:14:44.35
And so the beauty is that Jesus
doesn't look on the outside,
00:14:44.38\00:14:48.15
Jesus looks on the heart.
00:14:48.18\00:14:49.68
And so I think one of the things
00:14:49.72\00:14:51.05
that we have to
turn around for people
00:14:51.09\00:14:52.99
who may be,
00:14:53.02\00:14:54.36
you know,
watching us and saying,
00:14:54.39\00:14:55.72
"That, you call that
a redeemed homosexual?"
00:14:55.76\00:14:58.33
Yes, because Jesus didn't
do the work on the outside.
00:14:58.36\00:15:02.76
Some of those
things are residual
00:15:02.80\00:15:05.93
from the way that we were born.
00:15:05.97\00:15:07.30
I accepted femininity as
my identity at an early age
00:15:07.34\00:15:10.71
when my cement was wet if
you would, and so, you know,
00:15:10.74\00:15:13.68
my identity became
stamped in the feminine,
00:15:13.71\00:15:15.74
some of those traits will
be with me until Jesus comes.
00:15:15.78\00:15:18.95
But the fact remains that
the work that Jesus has done
00:15:18.98\00:15:21.68
on the inside
far exceeds anything
00:15:21.72\00:15:24.52
that I believe
reparative therapy would do.
00:15:24.55\00:15:27.49
Right.
00:15:27.52\00:15:28.86
You know, some of
our cultural wiring
00:15:28.89\00:15:31.13
has been so
hardwired that we are not open
00:15:31.16\00:15:34.63
to looking at some
of this fluctuation.
00:15:34.66\00:15:37.93
Society has put us
in a box, you know,
00:15:37.97\00:15:40.84
that masculinity has
to look a certain way.
00:15:40.87\00:15:45.01
And that if we don't,
if we don't look like that
00:15:45.04\00:15:48.34
then we're not who
we were meant to be,
00:15:48.38\00:15:50.65
we're not normal.
00:15:50.68\00:15:52.11
But you know, we
just came back from Africa
00:15:52.15\00:15:55.02
and what was normal here
was quite different in Africa
00:15:55.05\00:15:59.19
because in Africa when you go
and you pat a man on the back,
00:15:59.22\00:16:04.99
he's going to get
pretty annoyed with you
00:16:05.03\00:16:06.96
pretty soon because when you
do the masculine pat on the back
00:16:07.00\00:16:10.87
that we do here
in the United States,
00:16:10.90\00:16:13.10
that's a pick up
line in Africa saying that
00:16:13.13\00:16:16.47
you want to
involve yourself intimately
00:16:16.50\00:16:18.61
with that man in Africa.
00:16:18.64\00:16:20.51
Where as the reverse
is happening in Africa
00:16:20.54\00:16:23.61
where as two men
will hold hands together
00:16:23.65\00:16:26.65
and walk down
the street together
00:16:26.68\00:16:28.68
and has nothing to do
00:16:28.72\00:16:30.32
with wanting to have
some kind of sexual intimacy
00:16:30.35\00:16:33.66
between the two of them.
00:16:33.69\00:16:35.02
Right. Right.
00:16:35.06\00:16:36.39
And so it says something to
me about how we need to maybe
00:16:36.42\00:16:39.39
be a little bit more humble
in our church environments
00:16:39.43\00:16:44.47
about how we look at
the returning homosexual.
00:16:44.50\00:16:48.17
That we begin to
develop relationships
00:16:48.20\00:16:51.07
that aren't so much
based on their feminine
00:16:51.11\00:16:54.48
or their
masculine characteristics
00:16:54.51\00:16:56.44
but what is on the
inside about what Jesus is doing
00:16:56.48\00:17:01.08
in this person's heart.
00:17:01.12\00:17:02.45
Yeah.
00:17:02.48\00:17:03.82
So I think it's important that
we look at what King David said
00:17:03.85\00:17:07.16
which is that we are
fearfully and wonderfully made.
00:17:07.19\00:17:11.46
There are many feminine type men
00:17:11.49\00:17:14.13
that are married today
that their wives would say,
00:17:14.16\00:17:17.00
"My husband's a great lover,"
00:17:17.03\00:17:18.60
and so we have
this thing in society
00:17:18.63\00:17:20.64
that we've just had
this conditioning to think
00:17:20.67\00:17:23.64
that masculinity means
this and femininity means that.
00:17:23.67\00:17:27.91
And so as a church community
if we could come together
00:17:27.94\00:17:31.91
and allow some of
this cultural environment
00:17:31.95\00:17:36.99
that has hardwired
us to drop off a bit
00:17:37.02\00:17:39.62
and just go to the
Word of God and look at
00:17:39.65\00:17:42.59
who we are in Jesus Christ,
00:17:42.62\00:17:44.96
not place
judgments on one another
00:17:44.99\00:17:47.66
and allow ourselves to
engage with one another without,
00:17:47.70\00:17:52.13
you know, making
these prejudgments.
00:17:52.17\00:17:53.94
It would just be
amazing to see what's possible.
00:17:53.97\00:17:57.01
You know, Wayne, I think
of two contrasting stories
00:17:57.04\00:18:00.48
or situations that I had.
00:18:00.51\00:18:03.45
When I first came
back at 40 years old,
00:18:03.48\00:18:06.82
there was this very
humble Spanish couple
00:18:06.85\00:18:10.59
and they had a 10
year old daughter.
00:18:10.62\00:18:12.35
And they let three of us
homosexuals into their house
00:18:12.39\00:18:16.09
and we were having a
Sunday evening Bible study.
00:18:16.12\00:18:18.29
What was amazing
is this humble couple,
00:18:18.33\00:18:20.73
they didn't even have
much in the way, you know,
00:18:20.76\00:18:23.73
of where they lived, it was
in a low income housing area
00:18:23.77\00:18:26.90
whatever but I'm telling
you they gave us everything
00:18:26.94\00:18:29.50
that they had, they loved us.
00:18:29.54\00:18:31.37
And I think it
finally dawned on them
00:18:31.41\00:18:33.61
that I think we're entertaining
three homosexuals in our home
00:18:33.64\00:18:36.81
and now they've shared with me,
00:18:36.85\00:18:39.01
they're very good
friends of mine still.
00:18:39.05\00:18:40.48
But they shared with me
that they were talking about,
00:18:40.52\00:18:43.32
"What should we do,
00:18:43.35\00:18:44.69
we have three
homosexuals in our home
00:18:44.72\00:18:46.05
and a 10 year old daughter?"
00:18:46.09\00:18:47.49
And the husband looked
at his wife and he said,
00:18:47.52\00:18:49.39
"Nothing, nothing,
they are children of God
00:18:49.42\00:18:51.86
just like we are, you know,
00:18:51.89\00:18:53.56
and they're here
for a legitimate reason
00:18:53.60\00:18:55.80
and we're
studying the Word of God
00:18:55.83\00:18:57.47
and God loves them
just as He loves us."
00:18:57.50\00:19:00.20
So in spite of what they
were seeing in mannerisms,
00:19:00.24\00:19:03.04
they recognized
us as children of God
00:19:03.07\00:19:05.67
and worthy of, you know,
the grace and the gospel.
00:19:05.71\00:19:09.71
But then I'm
remembering, you know,
00:19:09.74\00:19:11.45
back when you
know many years later
00:19:11.48\00:19:13.78
and you and I
were at a conference
00:19:13.82\00:19:16.02
and we were talking to
someone about our ministry
00:19:16.05\00:19:20.56
and the comment
was made not to us
00:19:20.59\00:19:23.22
but to somebody
else that got back to us
00:19:23.26\00:19:25.76
that, "You know, I don't know
about those guys, I'm seeing,
00:19:25.79\00:19:28.96
you know, they still
have feminine mannerisms
00:19:29.00\00:19:30.87
and I'm thinking that
they may still be struggling."
00:19:30.90\00:19:33.64
And how sad because,
again, we tend to look at people
00:19:33.67\00:19:37.74
on the outside
and we make judgments
00:19:37.77\00:19:39.84
which isn't right, you know.
00:19:39.87\00:19:41.71
And we're trying to
assess and to think, you know,
00:19:41.74\00:19:44.18
where people are at
whatever in their experience
00:19:44.21\00:19:46.51
and yet we're
called as Christians
00:19:46.55\00:19:48.42
to love each other
00:19:48.45\00:19:49.78
and to not make
those kind of judgments.
00:19:49.82\00:19:51.55
And so, you know, the
word residue again comes up
00:19:51.59\00:19:54.26
that some of those
mannerisms, we can't change,
00:19:54.29\00:19:57.29
we're not in charge of that.
00:19:57.33\00:19:58.73
And even if we could
that would not be a total sign
00:19:58.76\00:20:01.76
of the healing that
comes from within, isn't it?
00:20:01.80\00:20:03.47
Yeah.
00:20:03.50\00:20:04.83
You know, it
hangs on me a little bit
00:20:04.87\00:20:06.57
when I hear things like
that instantly had made my heart
00:20:06.60\00:20:10.64
sink a bit and I
went, "Oh, really, come on."
00:20:10.67\00:20:12.04
Well, where does
it take you, Wayne?
00:20:12.07\00:20:13.68
Oh, it takes me
back to my childhood...
00:20:13.71\00:20:16.85
That's right.
00:20:16.88\00:20:18.21
It takes me
back to the rejection
00:20:18.25\00:20:19.58
to there been beat up,
to not fitting the mold,
00:20:19.61\00:20:22.62
and I thought, "Wow,
that's really interesting
00:20:22.65\00:20:24.85
that a Christian, a man of God
would make this observation."
00:20:24.89\00:20:29.42
And I said to the
person who shared this with me,
00:20:29.46\00:20:31.79
I said, "Oh," I said,
00:20:31.83\00:20:33.16
"He needs to come to
one of our seminars."
00:20:33.19\00:20:35.13
You know, because
it's not necessarily
00:20:35.16\00:20:38.37
the outward
appearance that changes
00:20:38.40\00:20:40.90
when someone returns
to Jesus, it's not that
00:20:40.94\00:20:43.71
I went under the water
gay and I came up straight
00:20:43.74\00:20:46.61
and all masculine and buff
and ready to meet the world,
00:20:46.64\00:20:50.45
you know, or that I need
to be married off as though
00:20:50.48\00:20:54.72
that were the
solution to the problem.
00:20:54.75\00:20:56.82
What we know that many
men that are married struggle
00:20:56.85\00:20:59.65
with homosexuality.
00:20:59.69\00:21:01.02
So we know on the outside
that's not a cure, right?
00:21:01.06\00:21:04.09
So, Wayne, let's
bring it around now.
00:21:04.13\00:21:05.93
What is the cure?
00:21:05.96\00:21:08.03
Well, again, the cure
comes through Jesus Christ.
00:21:08.06\00:21:11.53
Amen, that's right.
And, you know, it's not...
00:21:11.57\00:21:15.40
The behaviors, you
know, are things that
00:21:15.44\00:21:17.87
I think people can look at.
00:21:17.91\00:21:20.08
Yeah, if you have a desire
and you want to, you know,
00:21:20.11\00:21:23.98
learn to how to go
butch it up, you know,
00:21:24.01\00:21:26.95
feel free but don't let...
00:21:26.98\00:21:29.88
If it's not
successful, you know,
00:21:29.92\00:21:32.29
to your image, you
know, that doesn't mean that
00:21:32.32\00:21:34.52
God loves you any
less or that you're not...
00:21:34.56\00:21:36.59
Or that the work
isn't being done.
00:21:36.62\00:21:38.33
Absolutely. Right.
00:21:38.36\00:21:39.69
Your genuine
relationship in Jesus Christ
00:21:39.73\00:21:42.93
is not so much
through the characteristic.
00:21:42.96\00:21:45.33
And I think of the one person
00:21:45.37\00:21:47.94
who has a major testimony
00:21:47.97\00:21:53.34
about this is Sy
Rogers, you know.
00:21:53.38\00:21:55.21
And he's really great at about
joking about his femininity
00:21:55.24\00:21:59.38
and helping people
see that the genuineness
00:21:59.41\00:22:01.75
of Jesus Christ
flows through him
00:22:01.78\00:22:04.02
not necessarily
through some characteristic
00:22:04.05\00:22:06.15
that's supposed to be reshaped.
00:22:06.19\00:22:07.59
Right.
00:22:07.62\00:22:08.96
I love to tell that story
00:22:08.99\00:22:10.33
and I'll tell people
who have never seen him.
00:22:10.36\00:22:11.99
Sy Rogers is a
person who actually was
00:22:12.03\00:22:14.23
about to have a sex change.
00:22:14.26\00:22:15.76
He lived as a woman
for a couple of years.
00:22:15.80\00:22:17.90
And just before he was about...
00:22:17.93\00:22:20.44
I think he was just a few months
00:22:20.47\00:22:22.00
from having a sex change,
00:22:22.04\00:22:23.37
he'd given his heart to
the Lord, dressed as a woman
00:22:23.41\00:22:26.14
and the Lord
still saw his potential,
00:22:26.17\00:22:28.58
He saved him and redeemed him.
00:22:28.61\00:22:30.15
And so he said, "Lord,
00:22:30.18\00:22:31.51
I give you
permission to work in my life.
00:22:31.55\00:22:32.91
If you don't want me
to have a sex change,
00:22:32.95\00:22:34.32
let me know."
00:22:34.35\00:22:35.68
And two days, two weeks later
00:22:35.72\00:22:38.05
his whole program was shut down.
00:22:38.09\00:22:39.49
They were no longer
doing the sex change operations
00:22:39.52\00:22:41.69
at his hospital and he said,
00:22:41.72\00:22:43.29
"Wow, the Lord shut down
the whole program just for me,"
00:22:43.32\00:22:45.69
but his mannerisms
still were incredibly feminine
00:22:45.73\00:22:49.86
from living
that way for so long.
00:22:49.90\00:22:51.63
And then after
he's been in ministry
00:22:51.67\00:22:53.90
and he's been in
ministry for 20 some years,
00:22:53.94\00:22:55.77
married with a daughter
00:22:55.80\00:22:57.17
and I think he's
a grandfather now.
00:22:57.21\00:22:58.87
But people will
actually come up to him
00:22:58.91\00:23:00.88
and they look
at him and they go,
00:23:00.91\00:23:02.61
"You're the example of
a redeemed homosexual?"
00:23:02.64\00:23:04.68
He goes, "Yes."
00:23:04.71\00:23:06.05
And they go, "Well,
why aren't you more butch?"
00:23:06.08\00:23:07.58
And he goes, "I am,"
00:23:07.62\00:23:09.45
which is
hysterically funny to me.
00:23:09.48\00:23:11.05
But what that did is
that help me to recognize that
00:23:11.09\00:23:14.06
that even as a
hairdresser and I know, Wayne,
00:23:14.09\00:23:15.92
that you even love
doing floral arrangements
00:23:15.96\00:23:18.33
which to me are probably
00:23:18.36\00:23:19.73
the two most high
profile gay occupations
00:23:19.76\00:23:23.53
that you could
possibly have, that's right.
00:23:23.57\00:23:25.50
But God gave us
those attributes,
00:23:25.53\00:23:27.97
we have that talent
00:23:28.00\00:23:29.40
and that's not to me a
definition of femininity.
00:23:29.44\00:23:32.81
It's still a talent of
God because Jesus decorated
00:23:32.84\00:23:35.98
the fields with flowers.
00:23:36.01\00:23:37.48
He's the ultimate
florist if you ask me.
00:23:37.51\00:23:39.91
And then look He
gave our heads, you know,
00:23:39.95\00:23:41.98
He covered our, well,
some of our heads with hair.
00:23:42.02\00:23:44.29
And so to me I
have to recognize that
00:23:44.32\00:23:46.79
even those
attributes they're not defined
00:23:46.82\00:23:50.69
by who I am but I believe
that they're still gifts of God,
00:23:50.73\00:23:54.06
and I think that
we have to move past
00:23:54.10\00:23:56.13
and outside of those stereotypes
00:23:56.16\00:23:58.03
that we have to recognize that
00:23:58.07\00:23:59.87
everyone no matter
what their talents are,
00:23:59.90\00:24:02.37
we're still children of
God and that's no indication
00:24:02.40\00:24:04.47
of the work that
He's doing within us.
00:24:04.51\00:24:06.27
Yeah, you know, I have a...
00:24:06.31\00:24:08.74
As you know I have a friend
that I talk to you about now
00:24:08.78\00:24:11.55
who is a new
friend, heterosexual friend
00:24:11.58\00:24:14.32
that is kind of...
00:24:14.35\00:24:15.95
I'm getting the rewiring right
00:24:15.98\00:24:17.92
about this same
gendered friendship today.
00:24:17.95\00:24:20.69
And he said
something about my talents
00:24:20.72\00:24:22.72
and that I should be, you know,
00:24:22.76\00:24:25.69
very open and out
there with my talents
00:24:25.73\00:24:27.80
and live there for
people to see, you know,
00:24:27.83\00:24:30.87
my ability to design
and do various things.
00:24:30.90\00:24:33.47
And I said, "Well, I don't know
00:24:33.50\00:24:34.90
I kind of play
that down a little bit
00:24:34.94\00:24:36.27
because I don't want
to be judged, you know."
00:24:36.30\00:24:37.81
And he says, "Oh, come
on," you know, he says,
00:24:37.84\00:24:40.14
"I," you know, and
he's very masculine
00:24:40.18\00:24:42.31
and he does photography
and designs his own sets
00:24:42.34\00:24:46.01
and gets into some
creativity and stuff.
00:24:46.05\00:24:47.92
And he says, "I wouldn't
let what anybody thinks of you
00:24:47.95\00:24:50.25
stop you.
00:24:50.29\00:24:51.62
You know, you need to find
out who you are in Jesus Christ
00:24:51.65\00:24:55.12
and use the gifts
that God has given you
00:24:55.16\00:24:57.89
and not let the world, you know,
00:24:57.93\00:24:59.49
bring this oppression on you
or try to make you feel bad."
00:24:59.53\00:25:02.76
Beautiful.
00:25:02.80\00:25:04.30
So, Wayne, if you
would, what has been the result
00:25:04.33\00:25:07.27
of your personal
research on this topic
00:25:07.30\00:25:09.64
and how successful
is reparative therapy?
00:25:09.67\00:25:13.41
Well, you know,
00:25:13.44\00:25:14.94
I did look up statistics
on this for quite a while
00:25:14.98\00:25:18.91
and found that, I found a study,
00:25:18.95\00:25:22.02
one of the major
studies that was done
00:25:22.05\00:25:25.05
showed that 35% of the people
00:25:25.09\00:25:30.23
before going into reparative
therapy had tried suicide,
00:25:30.26\00:25:35.53
and then I think
it was 20 some percent
00:25:35.56\00:25:39.57
during the therapy that
tried to commit suicide.
00:25:39.60\00:25:44.21
And again, the
number elevated again
00:25:44.24\00:25:47.51
after the therapy.
00:25:47.54\00:25:49.61
And so that said to me that
00:25:49.64\00:25:51.08
the therapy wasn't
too terribly successful
00:25:51.11\00:25:53.72
and that the focus was probably
again in the wrong place.
00:25:53.75\00:25:56.79
Instead of being on behavior,
00:25:56.82\00:25:59.35
the focus should
really be on Jesus Christ
00:25:59.39\00:26:01.52
because Jesus loves you,
00:26:01.56\00:26:03.02
Jesus is going to
reaffirm your importance to Him
00:26:03.06\00:26:05.89
regardless of your masculine
or feminine characteristics.
00:26:05.93\00:26:10.47
And so I don't...
00:26:10.50\00:26:12.93
I'm not a big proponent
of reparative therapy today
00:26:12.97\00:26:15.97
and I feel really
bad for a lot of people
00:26:16.00\00:26:18.47
who have a bad
picture of Christianity
00:26:18.51\00:26:23.31
because of reparative
therapy and think that
00:26:23.35\00:26:25.75
that we want people
to fit a certain mold
00:26:25.78\00:26:28.58
and so it's given a bad
name, you know, to Christianity.
00:26:28.62\00:26:31.55
A lot of gay
people will associate
00:26:31.59\00:26:33.56
reparative
therapy with Christianity
00:26:33.59\00:26:36.32
even if it's not had
administered from a Christian.
00:26:36.36\00:26:40.13
So the synopsis or the result
00:26:40.16\00:26:45.07
actually that I
have come up with is that
00:26:45.10\00:26:47.64
Jesus is my reparative therapist
00:26:47.67\00:26:49.97
and I believe that the healing
00:26:50.01\00:26:51.34
that's taking place through Him
00:26:51.37\00:26:53.04
is more complete
than what it would be
00:26:53.07\00:26:55.61
if I went into
secular psychology therapy.
00:26:55.64\00:26:59.45
I agree.
00:26:59.48\00:27:00.82
You know, having
worked in the psych department
00:27:00.85\00:27:03.55
at a hospital for over 10 years,
00:27:03.59\00:27:05.69
you know, I saw this
revolving door of how,
00:27:05.72\00:27:08.29
you know, many of the therapies
that they weren't complete
00:27:08.32\00:27:11.73
or weren't totally
successful I believe
00:27:11.76\00:27:14.00
we're missing that component
of what Jesus can restore
00:27:14.03\00:27:17.57
and redeem in our lives.
00:27:17.60\00:27:19.13
I know that when I
accepted Jesus as my Savior,
00:27:19.17\00:27:21.94
I never chose to be straight.
00:27:21.97\00:27:23.77
I just chose Jesus
Christ, that's all I could do.
00:27:23.81\00:27:26.51
I couldn't
change my attractions,
00:27:26.54\00:27:28.04
I didn't even want to
00:27:28.08\00:27:29.68
but as I walk
legitimately with Jesus,
00:27:29.71\00:27:31.71
He started to address
it, He started to work on it
00:27:31.75\00:27:34.52
and He's given
me that freedom now
00:27:34.55\00:27:36.08
that I never even
thought was possible.
00:27:36.12\00:27:38.45
So, Wayne, thank you
for sharing your thoughts
00:27:38.49\00:27:42.39
about reparative therapy
and a lot of the information.
00:27:42.42\00:27:45.33
We hope that you've
enjoyed our program today
00:27:45.36\00:27:47.13
here on Pure Choices.
00:27:47.16\00:27:48.53
And we invite you to
come back to hear more of
00:27:48.56\00:27:50.60
Coming Out
Ministries in the future.
00:27:50.63\00:27:52.77