The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Hi, I'm Mike Carducci
with Coming Out Ministries,
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your host today
on "Pure Choices."
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Today, I'm gonna be interviewing
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some very good friends
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who are also my
ministry colleagues,
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Wayne Blakely
and also Ron Woolsey.
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Today, we're gonna be
talking about identity.
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Does identity matter?
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Yes, I'm gonna
start off with Wayne.
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Wayne, can you give us an
idea of where you came from?
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Can you give us a brief history
of what your life's been like?
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Sure.
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First I just want to say
that it is such a blessing
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to be able to sit here
with my ministry colleagues
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who have experienced
what I've walked through.
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You know, we've just all
done it little bit differently.
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And we arrive sometimes
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with some pretty rough
beginnings and I do a...
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Or I give a presentation
called Out of Innocence,
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and then after
that presentation,
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I move into identity
matters and it's my walk,
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my journey that
has actually brought me
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into the scope
of identity matters
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that really says
something about who I am today.
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But first, I can share
with the viewers a little bit
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about my past
and my past was one
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that I certainly didn't
choose as none of you chose.
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My natural mother carried
me throughout her pregnancy
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and during that time she
was adamant about the fact
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that she was having a
baby girl and not a boy.
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Before I was the
age of two-years-old,
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she had broken my
left arm in two places
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on two different occasions.
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And so not only was I
rejected before birth,
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I was rejected after birth.
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And that shaped
pretty immediately
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how I was gonna
respond to the male gender.
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I was gonna find
safety in the male gender
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or at least I was gonna look
for safety in the male gender
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and I look for
love in the male gender.
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But, you know, I
was fortunate enough
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that my aunt
and uncle adopted me
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when I was at two-years-old,
of course being determined
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that my natural
mother was so abusive,
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I needed to be
placed somewhere else
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the State told my
father that either he remove me
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and have me placed
elsewhere or they would.
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And so an aunt and
uncle had been praying
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and they said that
they talk to my dad
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and said we would
like to adopt him.
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We want him to grow up in
a place where he is loved,
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where he's
needed, wanted and shown
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the love of Jesus Christ
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because he hasn't
experienced that to this point.
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In the process the damage,
you know, had already been done
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and before I
was three-years-old,
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I was running
around the house screaming
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"I don't want to be a
boy, I want to be a girl."
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And I would dress
up in little scarves
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and whatever I could find that
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that had to do
with the female gender
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instead of the male gender.
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So, Wayne, I want to take
you back just a little bit.
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What was it that
your mother said to you
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that put that idea in your head
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that you didn't
want to be a boy?
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That I wasn't
accepted as being a boy
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and that and so by my
not being accepted as a boy,
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the only way I could regain
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any kind of
acceptance or feel myself
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as being the person I
was supposed to be in society
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was to try to role
model myself after a woman
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even though I'd
experienced hatred from a woman.
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Right.
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I remember I read in the
book Ministry of Healing,
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it talks about the in vitro care
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of every unborn baby
and already from the moment
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that that you were conceived,
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your mother was so determined
that she was gonna have a girl
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that you are already
experiencing rejection
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even before you were born.
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And then when you were
born, the thing that you told me
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in the passes
that your mother said
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"You're no good as a boy,
you should have been a girl."
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And I believe that
hearing those tapes
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also affected this understanding
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that you were no good as a boy.
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Right.
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Is that true? Yes, it is.
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And so after even the adoption,
you know, you can imagine now,
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I'm in a place
where they didn't have
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those tapes playing
that, that happened,
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you know, from my natural mother
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they weren't present.
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And so they couldn't
figure out what was going on.
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I mean, they knew
some abuse had taken place,
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but as I began to grow up
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and pass the ages of
three and four and five
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and I kept having more and more
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desires for feminine type things
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rather than masculine things,
they didn't know what to do.
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They reached out to teachers,
they reached out to pastors,
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nobody could fill them
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and as to what
should take place.
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I went to school and, you know,
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as soon as I entered school
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I was teased,
harassed and abused.
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I hated school. By who, Wayne?
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From the classmates who noticed
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that I was
different from other boys.
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Male and female?
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Yes, from girls too
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but there was
more comfort in women
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than there was in men
because the femininity,
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they could identify with
that it wasn't offensive to them
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whereas in the
male masculine role
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as you're presenting
with feminine characteristics,
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you know, that's
just not acceptable.
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So the program is
called Identity Matters
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and already you are
only an elementary school
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and I'm confused myself
how is it that a little boy
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who is rejected
by his birth mother,
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you know, who said,
"He was no good as a boy,
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should have been a girl."
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How was it that you
attached to the feminine side
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when it was also the feminine
side that had abused you?
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Because I was still
looking for that acceptance.
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I was still
trying to get back to
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what I was
supposed to have been.
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Well, all right.
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And so already
you painted a picture
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of extreme confusion for
me, keep going if you would.
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So throughout my junior
high and high school years,
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I was still isolated. I
was isolated in the church.
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I was isolated
when I started working.
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I was... I had a female walk
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that I didn't know had developed
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but that it had
and people would say,
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"Oh, nice swing on that gate"
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or they would start whistling
and they would call me sissy,
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homo and, you know,
all kinds of other things
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that I would go home
at the end of that day
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and I would go into the bathroom
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and I would punch
myself in the face
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and I would scream at God
and I would say "Why, God, why,
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I was supposed to
have been a girl not a boy?
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Why am I having to
endure this pain, this abuse?"
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And I couldn't
seem to change anything.
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How old were you at that time?
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When I was doing
that, I was about 12 or 13.
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Okay, all right.
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And my dad would try
to who is now my uncle
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or my uncle had
become my dad essentially,
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he would try to get me
out there to the garage
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and to hold a
ranch and, you know,
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to do the manly
things and to play baseball
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and but the fact
of the matter was,
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I would swing at that ball
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and it might as well
had a hole in the bat,
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I just couldn't
hit it, you know.
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The only thing I
could really do was run
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and thankfully, you
know, my hips didn't swivel
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when I ran or I
probably would have gotten
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teased about the way I ran.
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But there were times
I had to run pretty fast
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because guys were chasing me
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to pull my gym shorts
down or want to beat me up
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and I actually found
out a couple years ago
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that a guy that
was going to school
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in the same class as
me looked a lot like me
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and he had been being beat
up on the way home from school
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because they thought it was me.
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So, Ron, as you're listening
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to Wayne
described his childhood.
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Even though it's a far
cry or different from the way
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that you were
raised, can you identify
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with what he was
going through at that age?
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I can relate very
much to Wayne's feelings
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and his identity,
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though mine came about
in a much different way.
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My mother has told me
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that out of the four
children that she had,
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I was the only
one that was planned.
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So I wasn't rejected in vitro,
I was not rejected at birth.
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Very much planned and
wanted but I was molested
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when I was four-years-old
and from that point on
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it was a
traumatic experience for me
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and I didn't tell my
parents what had happened,
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I internalized and
because I did not deal with it.
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At four-years-old, I
didn't know how to deal
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with something like that.
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But soon after that I
started wetting the bed
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and my parents had trained
all other children by the time
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they were two in that area.
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So all of a
sudden two years later
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I am regressing,
I'm going backwards
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and my father didn't understand,
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he thought I
was just being lazy.
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So he started dealing with me
in an abusive way, emotionally.
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He tried shaming me
and to stop being lazy.
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They even took me to a doctor
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who told them I just being lazy,
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there was nothing
wrong with my kidneys and so.
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Here I had this
trauma of sexual molestation
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which I didn't
know how to deal with.
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I was actually robbed of...
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I think now
robbed of my manhood.
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I was confused
about my identity.
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And then my dad was emotionally
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misunderstanding
me and abusing me
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and so I felt rejection from him
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and I was out of country family,
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I was more of a gentleman
rather than a rough housing man
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and I started playing the
piano when I was five-years-old.
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And while I'm playing the piano,
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the other boys were
out playing football
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or baseball or
whatever and they would mock me
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and make fun of
me like you, Wayne.
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I was a sissy because I
would rather play the piano
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than play football.
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So from many
different directions,
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I started feeling this rejection
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and not knowing how
to identify who I was.
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My father did not accept
me, my brothers made fun of me,
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the peer group did the same.
00:10:34.43\00:10:36.30
And so I grew up
feeling confused and unaccepted
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and not knowing
really who I was also
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and grew up being called a sissy
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and all of that because of,
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simply because of
playing the piano.
00:10:48.88\00:10:51.18
It didn't help that
I started crocheting
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when I was
seven-years-old, I don't suppose
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because here I was a bedwetting,
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crocheting, piano
playing a little kid
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instead of out
playing football and baseball.
00:10:59.39\00:11:01.66
And so I guess I
gave them ammunition
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but nevertheless I
grew up feeling confused
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and warped and so
forth about my identity.
00:11:07.80\00:11:10.67
But if you constantly feel
rejection from masculinity,
00:11:10.70\00:11:14.60
doesn't it make sense then
00:11:14.64\00:11:15.97
that you would
move towards femininity?
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And so like you and
yet totally different,
00:11:18.67\00:11:21.71
I didn't come from
sexual abuse like you, Ron,
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and I didn't come from
physical abuse like you, Wayne.
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I grew up in a home
00:11:26.98\00:11:29.22
where the dad
was basically absent.
00:11:29.25\00:11:32.92
My dad was in the navy
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and he was in
the Navy jazz band.
00:11:34.32\00:11:36.16
He was good looking
00:11:36.19\00:11:37.53
and he was a hot-headed Italian.
00:11:37.56\00:11:39.06
So when he was gone,
00:11:39.09\00:11:40.56
you know, things
were pretty quiet
00:11:40.60\00:11:41.93
with my mom and my sisters,
00:11:41.96\00:11:43.37
but when dad was
home he was aggressive
00:11:43.40\00:11:45.83
and I guess it was abusive
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because, you know, we
heard a lot of words like
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stupid, dummy, idiot
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and my mom even
confirmed a couple years ago
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that that she
would look at my dad
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and think to herself
"Why are you competing
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with the two-year-old,
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you know, in
relationship to me?"
00:12:00.85\00:12:02.18
So at a time when I wasn't
even conscious about that,
00:12:02.22\00:12:05.39
he was so aggressive and abusive
00:12:05.42\00:12:08.52
and then when he was gone,
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I viewed that also as abandoning
00:12:09.92\00:12:11.73
that I basically
rejected the masculinity
00:12:11.76\00:12:14.40
and reverted back
to the femininity.
00:12:14.43\00:12:15.90
Mom was safe, you
know, she wasn't explosive
00:12:15.93\00:12:19.03
and she was always there.
00:12:19.07\00:12:21.57
You know, Mike and Wayne,
00:12:21.60\00:12:23.54
as we're sitting here
comparing our beginnings
00:12:23.57\00:12:27.61
and how we were derailed in life
00:12:27.64\00:12:30.25
from one way or another.
00:12:30.28\00:12:32.35
An observation
is coming to my mind
00:12:32.38\00:12:36.48
that as we were being
pushed by circumstances,
00:12:36.52\00:12:39.55
by rejection, by
abuse, by molestation,
00:12:39.59\00:12:42.86
by absentee
fatherism and so forth.
00:12:42.89\00:12:47.40
We eventually came to view
00:12:47.43\00:12:51.03
the male gender
as the opposite sex.
00:12:51.07\00:12:54.50
We were not brought up in
it, we were not schooled in it,
00:12:54.54\00:12:58.57
there was an absent
factor in our development
00:12:58.61\00:13:02.24
to where it became
more like a mystery,
00:13:02.28\00:13:05.55
like it should have
been with the female gender.
00:13:05.58\00:13:08.92
The male gender
became like the opposite sex
00:13:08.95\00:13:11.99
in which we are now attracted
because of the mystique
00:13:12.02\00:13:15.32
and not having
being schooled in that.
00:13:15.36\00:13:18.46
Would you agree that's
kind of the way we ended up?
00:13:18.49\00:13:21.60
Ron, that is so profound.
00:13:21.63\00:13:23.43
It's explosive to
understand that the things
00:13:23.47\00:13:27.44
that we share also
that you brought out,
00:13:27.47\00:13:29.57
I can absolutely
identify with them relate to.
00:13:29.60\00:13:32.47
How about you, Wayne?
00:13:32.51\00:13:34.41
Yeah, I absolutely, you
know, because of the comfort
00:13:34.44\00:13:38.91
in identifying
more in the femininity,
00:13:38.95\00:13:41.28
then why wouldn't you
be attracted to the male
00:13:41.32\00:13:44.45
as was meant to be in
the natural course of life.
00:13:44.49\00:13:48.19
There was nothing
that was happening...
00:13:48.22\00:13:51.16
Excuse me, from, from
within the school system
00:13:51.19\00:13:55.66
or inside of our church system
00:13:55.70\00:13:58.73
that was helping me
find any kind of healing.
00:13:58.77\00:14:01.64
But what
actually what I was doing
00:14:01.67\00:14:03.24
was I was
reading the Word of God
00:14:03.27\00:14:04.64
and I was saying,
you know, all the verses
00:14:04.67\00:14:06.54
that I was reading
about homosexuality,
00:14:06.57\00:14:08.34
was going "Oh, my.
00:14:08.38\00:14:10.35
I can't believe this,
dear Lord, this is me.
00:14:10.38\00:14:12.91
I didn't ask for this.
00:14:12.95\00:14:14.28
I didn't choose this, how
could this possibly be me?"
00:14:14.32\00:14:17.75
And so even though I was walking
00:14:17.79\00:14:20.62
with this more
feministic type of personality,
00:14:20.66\00:14:25.33
I couldn't understand how
was that I arrived at this
00:14:25.36\00:14:28.30
because I didn't choose this.
00:14:28.33\00:14:30.17
And so when I
came out of the closet
00:14:30.20\00:14:31.77
or a gentleman
brought me out of the closet,
00:14:31.80\00:14:34.87
you know, he said to me
00:14:34.90\00:14:36.30
"Hey, you know,
your denomination
00:14:36.34\00:14:38.44
or Christianity has
bred homosexuality."
00:14:38.47\00:14:41.71
And I said "What?"
00:14:41.74\00:14:43.18
And he said "Yeah, he
says, you're gay, I'm gay,
00:14:43.21\00:14:45.85
I know other guys
who are gay and we're...
00:14:45.88\00:14:48.62
They're very good at telling us
00:14:48.65\00:14:50.05
that the Bible
says that this is sin
00:14:50.09\00:14:52.55
but nobody's telling
us what to do about it."
00:14:52.59\00:14:55.09
And so I said
"Well, goodbye Christianity
00:14:55.12\00:14:57.46
and goodbye God, you
know, I'm out of here."
00:14:57.49\00:15:00.43
And I embraced
immediately my gay identity.
00:15:00.46\00:15:03.80
Wayne, I have a
similar instance,
00:15:03.83\00:15:05.67
it was after I had left church
culture looking for resources,
00:15:05.70\00:15:08.84
looking for
someone I could confide in
00:15:08.87\00:15:10.84
and after they said
something so derogatory
00:15:10.87\00:15:12.87
about women I rejected
and I walked out and I said,
00:15:12.91\00:15:15.31
"God, if that's the best
you got, I'm out of here."
00:15:15.34\00:15:17.58
And a year or so later,
00:15:17.61\00:15:18.95
I'm in a gay bar
on a Friday night.
00:15:18.98\00:15:21.15
The man in front of me orders
a drink from the bartender
00:15:21.18\00:15:23.28
and they wish each
other happy Sabbath.
00:15:23.32\00:15:25.35
And then I looked
into and I thought,
00:15:25.39\00:15:27.02
you know, are you,
you know, Christians?
00:15:27.06\00:15:30.23
And they said, "Well, yeah,
00:15:30.26\00:15:31.89
you know, we came
from the same church
00:15:31.93\00:15:33.33
and I wish them happy Sabbath."
00:15:33.36\00:15:35.16
And then another guy
further down on the bar
00:15:35.20\00:15:37.57
also said that he also had
come from the same denomination.
00:15:37.60\00:15:41.17
And so again here I
was on a Friday night
00:15:41.20\00:15:43.97
with four other men
that had been ostracized
00:15:44.01\00:15:47.04
or lost out of
the church culture
00:15:47.08\00:15:50.21
and had felt no
opportunities for redemption
00:15:50.25\00:15:53.38
or no one that was willing
to not only reach out to them
00:15:53.42\00:15:55.85
and call them back in,
00:15:55.88\00:15:57.22
but certainly not
even relate to the issues
00:15:57.25\00:15:58.75
that we were all
struggling with at the time.
00:15:58.79\00:16:00.42
So I understand and feel
what you're talking about.
00:16:00.46\00:16:05.03
You know, I would say that even,
00:16:05.06\00:16:07.26
even if there were
those in the church
00:16:07.30\00:16:09.86
that did care and
were reaching out,
00:16:09.90\00:16:13.67
somehow it did
not resonate with us.
00:16:13.70\00:16:16.47
And, you know,
when I left Christianity
00:16:16.50\00:16:19.67
bitter against God and so forth,
00:16:19.71\00:16:22.44
my tendency was to blame,
but I've been careful not to
00:16:22.48\00:16:27.35
because I realize, I
had a lack of understanding.
00:16:27.38\00:16:32.49
And what I would say
is that in my circles
00:16:32.52\00:16:36.22
where they were
trying to help I suppose,
00:16:36.26\00:16:38.83
if there was an effort,
they didn't understand how.
00:16:38.86\00:16:41.70
They didn't know how to
reach someone like you and me.
00:16:41.73\00:16:44.30
They were not equipped.
00:16:44.33\00:16:45.70
They did not have the
tools and that's one reason
00:16:45.73\00:16:47.87
why we're here today
as Coming Out Ministries.
00:16:47.90\00:16:50.71
We have, we have come a
long ways through a journey.
00:16:50.74\00:16:55.58
The Lord has led us
to where we are today
00:16:55.61\00:16:58.98
through our own
study, our own research,
00:16:59.01\00:17:02.32
our own experience
to where now we three,
00:17:02.35\00:17:06.25
you know, in
Coming Out Ministries,
00:17:06.29\00:17:07.72
we feel called of the
Lord to help equip the church.
00:17:07.76\00:17:11.16
When I say the church,
any Christian who will listen,
00:17:11.19\00:17:14.23
we have discovered
by God's grace tools
00:17:14.26\00:17:17.60
that can help people
avoid going the direction
00:17:17.63\00:17:22.84
that we went if we can
reach them soon enough.
00:17:22.87\00:17:25.74
And so, I praise the
Lord for how He has led us
00:17:25.77\00:17:29.41
out of darkness
into His marvelous light
00:17:29.44\00:17:32.41
and He's given us
now tools to work with,
00:17:32.45\00:17:34.62
so others don't
have to experience
00:17:34.65\00:17:37.42
what we felt the rejection
that we felt or perceived.
00:17:37.45\00:17:40.76
I love the way that
you describe that, Ron,
00:17:40.79\00:17:43.16
and, you know, identity,
you know, is this thread
00:17:43.19\00:17:45.89
that is woven through
our very first experiences
00:17:45.93\00:17:48.40
even before you
were born, Wayne.
00:17:48.43\00:17:49.96
And so as that
identity is woven through this,
00:17:50.00\00:17:54.90
God has brought us
together in an incredible way.
00:17:54.94\00:17:57.14
Ron, you've been a
pastor and out of that lifestyle
00:17:57.17\00:17:59.21
for over 20 years,
married with the family.
00:17:59.24\00:18:01.74
Wayne, you've been walking,
00:18:01.78\00:18:03.11
you know, with legitimacy
for over four years now.
00:18:03.14\00:18:04.98
I've been out of
this lifestyle for 12.
00:18:05.01\00:18:07.08
And all the sudden,
just a year and a half ago,
00:18:07.12\00:18:09.62
little over a
year and a half ago,
00:18:09.65\00:18:11.09
God miraculously
brought us together
00:18:11.12\00:18:12.89
and our own
individual ministries.
00:18:12.92\00:18:15.39
I never would have thought
00:18:15.42\00:18:16.76
that we would have
had the scope of outreach
00:18:16.79\00:18:19.53
that we've had even as of today.
00:18:19.56\00:18:22.36
But what's incredible is
even by our diverse past,
00:18:22.40\00:18:25.17
we also had differences
in the ministry that we are,
00:18:25.20\00:18:28.20
that we are, that we present.
00:18:28.24\00:18:31.17
As a matter of
fact, I relate to people
00:18:31.21\00:18:32.77
who are sexually
defiled coming from pornography
00:18:32.81\00:18:35.31
and sexual addiction.
00:18:35.34\00:18:36.68
Wayne, your
ministry is to reach out
00:18:36.71\00:18:38.41
to the church culture to,
00:18:38.45\00:18:40.45
you know, talk about
educating the churches
00:18:40.48\00:18:43.32
on how to receive homosexuality,
00:18:43.35\00:18:45.02
how to relate and
create a safe environment
00:18:45.05\00:18:47.72
and, Ron, who has a
church and a family of your own.
00:18:47.76\00:18:50.16
You've been doing this ministry
00:18:50.19\00:18:51.53
and you've been
doing your presentations
00:18:51.56\00:18:53.19
for 20 years by yourself.
00:18:53.23\00:18:55.03
So what's incredible is the
way that this has come about,
00:18:55.06\00:18:58.90
but what I want to
talk a little bit more
00:18:58.93\00:19:00.44
and I want to stay on this thing
00:19:00.47\00:19:01.80
about identity is, Wayne,
as you came into Christianity,
00:19:01.84\00:19:06.11
talk to me about how
your identity changed
00:19:06.14\00:19:09.14
and what that
means for you today?
00:19:09.18\00:19:11.75
Well, when I first
began to share my testimony,
00:19:11.78\00:19:15.82
I wasn't sure who
I was that I was now.
00:19:15.85\00:19:19.15
And so I knew that
I had been redeemed,
00:19:19.19\00:19:22.72
but I didn't know
when I would walk into
00:19:22.76\00:19:26.86
public environments to
speak, tell them who I was
00:19:26.90\00:19:30.77
and so it was
said by one person,
00:19:30.80\00:19:34.24
"Well, you're still gay.
00:19:34.27\00:19:35.60
You know, you're gay Christian."
00:19:35.64\00:19:37.01
And I was like, you know what?
00:19:37.04\00:19:38.41
That's really what
God redeemed me from,
00:19:38.44\00:19:40.51
why would I identify with
what He brought me out of?
00:19:40.54\00:19:43.58
And so then I
switched to this idea
00:19:43.61\00:19:46.28
of identifying
by the attraction.
00:19:46.31\00:19:49.18
So they would say "Well, your
same-sex attracted Christian."
00:19:49.22\00:19:52.49
I was like, you know what?
00:19:52.52\00:19:53.89
That's still kind of
leaves me shackled to my past.
00:19:53.92\00:19:58.66
You know, that
doesn't seem right.
00:19:58.69\00:20:00.03
It seems like there's supposed
to be some kind of freedom
00:20:00.06\00:20:02.63
when you're baptized
that you go under the water
00:20:02.66\00:20:05.00
that you don't really
necessarily come up straight,
00:20:05.03\00:20:07.10
but you come up as a new
creature in Jesus Christ.
00:20:07.14\00:20:11.57
Yeah, but it wasn't
holy water, was it, Wayne?
00:20:11.61\00:20:13.78
Oh, I think it was.
00:20:13.81\00:20:15.38
I think that we have a
tendency to think that,
00:20:15.41\00:20:18.01
that water is
miraculous as its effect
00:20:18.05\00:20:20.55
but like you I came
up still a homosexual
00:20:20.58\00:20:24.15
with the homosexual feelings
00:20:24.19\00:20:25.99
and definitely
in sexual addiction.
00:20:26.02\00:20:27.72
Yeah, I don't, I
mean, it was holy water
00:20:27.76\00:20:30.29
and that what transpired
00:20:30.33\00:20:32.26
there was that the old self died
00:20:32.29\00:20:34.66
and the new creature
came up out of that water.
00:20:34.70\00:20:37.63
But what...
00:20:37.67\00:20:39.00
But from the
standpoint and what, Ron,
00:20:39.03\00:20:40.37
you were mentioning
a little bit earlier
00:20:40.40\00:20:42.57
about blame and ignorance
00:20:42.60\00:20:44.94
and I see some
responsibility in here,
00:20:44.97\00:20:47.08
the church has
been very much sitting,
00:20:47.11\00:20:50.51
watching this all take place,
00:20:50.55\00:20:52.68
you know, year
over years and years
00:20:52.71\00:20:54.88
of the
evolution of homosexuality
00:20:54.92\00:20:57.49
and really done nothing
because of their ignorance,
00:20:57.52\00:21:00.79
they haven't known what to do.
00:21:00.82\00:21:02.56
And that's where I believe
divine intervention came in,
00:21:02.59\00:21:06.06
and God said, you know what?
00:21:06.09\00:21:07.83
"I have taken
people from worst places
00:21:07.86\00:21:10.67
and put them in
higher places to show
00:21:10.70\00:21:13.87
and to reflect My love, My truth
00:21:13.90\00:21:17.47
and the teaching of what
really needs to transpire,
00:21:17.51\00:21:20.18
the transformation
that is possible through Me.
00:21:20.21\00:21:22.91
Not just about homosexuality,
00:21:22.94\00:21:25.21
but about adultery,
about pride, about gossip,
00:21:25.25\00:21:28.48
about, you know,
overeating about.
00:21:28.52\00:21:30.19
Whatever our sin condition is,
00:21:30.22\00:21:32.55
it's about
learning to come together.
00:21:32.59\00:21:35.06
James 5:16 tells
us to come together
00:21:35.09\00:21:37.99
and confess our
sins one to another
00:21:38.03\00:21:41.60
and to pray for the
healing that is possible
00:21:41.63\00:21:44.00
through Jesus Christ.
00:21:44.03\00:21:45.37
And I believe that
is where the church
00:21:45.40\00:21:47.87
becomes the family
that God meant it to be.
00:21:47.90\00:21:50.71
Awesome. Beautiful.
00:21:50.74\00:21:52.37
Ron?
00:21:52.41\00:21:54.11
When I came into the,
00:21:54.14\00:21:55.94
into the faith and
later into ministry,
00:21:55.98\00:22:00.58
there was still
confusion about my identity
00:22:00.62\00:22:02.85
because I
remember as a new minister,
00:22:02.88\00:22:07.69
excuse me, but I
would be doing ministry work
00:22:07.72\00:22:11.23
and with other people
and I noticed that tongues
00:22:11.26\00:22:15.73
begin to wag if I was
seen with one of the church
00:22:15.76\00:22:18.90
ladies doing ministry work.
00:22:18.93\00:22:21.07
And I thought, well, why
would, why would that be.
00:22:21.10\00:22:24.07
I come out of the gay life,
00:22:24.11\00:22:26.07
there should be no
concern here, you know.
00:22:26.11\00:22:28.64
I wasn't inclined to
be straight or to marry.
00:22:28.68\00:22:32.55
I was just going to be
00:22:32.58\00:22:33.92
a Christian the rest of my life.
00:22:33.95\00:22:36.22
Well, then we had
a young Bible worker
00:22:36.25\00:22:37.95
come and join our work
00:22:37.99\00:22:39.45
and he was a nice
looking young fellow
00:22:39.49\00:22:41.16
and we were very good friends
00:22:41.19\00:22:42.79
and then we did
some work together.
00:22:42.82\00:22:46.46
Tongues begin to wag
00:22:46.49\00:22:48.03
because now here's the
pastor with this young man
00:22:48.06\00:22:51.37
and I got to thinking, I
can't be seen with anybody.
00:22:51.40\00:22:55.47
My identity is so
confused not with me,
00:22:55.50\00:22:58.27
I know who I am but the
church doesn't know for sure.
00:22:58.31\00:23:01.64
I can't be seen with a woman,
00:23:01.68\00:23:03.01
I can't be seen
with the man, Lord, help.
00:23:03.04\00:23:05.98
And, you know,
the Lord intervened,
00:23:06.01\00:23:07.75
I mean within just a few months.
00:23:07.78\00:23:11.82
I met my wife who I
really met as a child
00:23:11.85\00:23:14.99
and we were
married and in short order
00:23:15.02\00:23:18.23
which surprised me
00:23:18.26\00:23:19.59
because I was not
inclined to go that way,
00:23:19.63\00:23:21.80
but the Lord
worked in such a way
00:23:21.83\00:23:24.00
that He created a
new identity for me
00:23:24.03\00:23:27.44
and put me in a ministry,
in a marriage and with family
00:23:27.47\00:23:31.61
and, you know, the tongues
have never wagged since then.
00:23:31.64\00:23:34.78
And I think the Lord
established an identity with me
00:23:34.81\00:23:39.41
because of the calling
that He gave me in ministry.
00:23:39.45\00:23:42.78
And I just rejoice to
see how the Lord can take us
00:23:42.82\00:23:47.76
from wherever we are, put
us where He wants us to be,
00:23:47.79\00:23:51.56
He will give us the identity
00:23:51.59\00:23:53.26
that we need to
accomplish His purposes.
00:23:53.29\00:23:55.33
Oh, that's right, Ron.
00:23:55.36\00:23:56.70
And, you know, when I
came in a church culture,
00:23:56.73\00:23:58.67
I didn't even know
what well, defile was.
00:23:58.70\00:24:02.00
And so like a little kid
who sees a bug in the milk,
00:24:02.04\00:24:04.44
you know, and if
they are really young
00:24:04.47\00:24:06.07
they just drink
the milk, you know.
00:24:06.11\00:24:07.44
And then as they
get a little bit older,
00:24:07.48\00:24:08.91
they take the
bug out of the milk
00:24:08.94\00:24:10.28
and drink the milk.
00:24:10.31\00:24:11.65
And then, you know, by learning,
00:24:11.68\00:24:13.01
by the time they get to
be about three-years-old
00:24:13.05\00:24:14.38
they recognize that the
milk is defiled by the bug
00:24:14.42\00:24:16.72
and they don't drink the milk.
00:24:16.75\00:24:18.09
So as I began that
journey with the Lord,
00:24:18.12\00:24:20.86
you know, I got baptized
00:24:20.89\00:24:22.56
and as I start to walk with Him,
00:24:22.59\00:24:24.09
it was a lot of falling
down but Jesus was encourager
00:24:24.13\00:24:27.76
to tell me to get back up
00:24:27.80\00:24:29.26
and I never
chose to be straight.
00:24:29.30\00:24:31.00
I didn't think it was possible,
therefore I didn't pursue it
00:24:31.03\00:24:34.54
and I knew I certainly
couldn't change my behavior.
00:24:34.57\00:24:37.21
I wasn't going to do
what I did in high school
00:24:37.24\00:24:39.47
and just do
behavior modification
00:24:39.51\00:24:40.94
by getting a girlfriend
and living frustrated.
00:24:40.98\00:24:43.48
That in itself
was a private hell.
00:24:43.51\00:24:45.58
And so what was
great as Jesus said,
00:24:45.61\00:24:47.85
"No, Mike, you can
change your attractions.
00:24:47.88\00:24:49.95
You can change your feelings.
00:24:49.98\00:24:51.32
All I'm asking you to
do is submit them to Me,
00:24:51.35\00:24:54.06
let Me take control of them."
00:24:54.09\00:24:55.66
And as I
started walking with God
00:24:55.69\00:24:57.76
and again messier
first, I would fall
00:24:57.79\00:24:59.39
and He would say "Get back up."
00:24:59.43\00:25:01.00
But as I kept in that same
direction with Jesus Christ,
00:25:01.03\00:25:04.57
I started to get relief
from the sexual addiction drive
00:25:04.60\00:25:08.40
and then I also
started to get relief
00:25:08.44\00:25:10.01
from the same sex attraction
00:25:10.04\00:25:11.81
and then and then
regular attractions
00:25:11.84\00:25:14.21
to the opposite
sex started coming in.
00:25:14.24\00:25:16.34
Spiritual growth. That's right.
00:25:16.38\00:25:18.18
And so each one of us...
00:25:18.21\00:25:20.42
I've been out for 13
years, you for over 20
00:25:20.45\00:25:23.12
and Wayne for four
00:25:23.15\00:25:24.49
and we're all still
in different positions
00:25:24.52\00:25:26.76
because God knows that
He can't give us all of it
00:25:26.79\00:25:28.82
to go through at one sitting.
00:25:28.86\00:25:30.73
He knows that He's
gonna give it to us
00:25:30.76\00:25:32.56
as we can handle it.
00:25:32.59\00:25:34.00
And we're here to
testify of His saving grace
00:25:34.03\00:25:36.83
at every stage along the way.
00:25:36.87\00:25:38.57
And I might add, my
marriage has been for 20 years.
00:25:38.60\00:25:42.37
Now I came out of the
gay life 21 years ago,
00:25:42.40\00:25:45.31
I've been married for 20.
00:25:45.34\00:25:47.78
Together we have five
children, five grandchildren.
00:25:47.81\00:25:50.68
The Lord is good. Yes. Yes.
00:25:50.71\00:25:53.21
You're powerful example.
00:25:53.25\00:25:55.12
I would just like to
say that if you're watching
00:25:55.15\00:25:57.79
and you're part of a
church ask for your pastor,
00:25:57.82\00:26:02.26
ask for your leadership to
get involved in the process
00:26:02.29\00:26:05.33
because rather than watching...
00:26:05.36\00:26:06.96
I believe that God
wants you to get involved
00:26:07.00\00:26:09.23
in the process of the healing.
00:26:09.26\00:26:11.50
And so it isn't the embracing
00:26:11.53\00:26:14.70
of the same-sex
attracted individual
00:26:14.74\00:26:17.17
or the sinner
with any sin temptation
00:26:17.21\00:26:19.47
that the transformation
begins to take place
00:26:19.51\00:26:21.61
as you reflect the
love of Jesus Christ.
00:26:21.64\00:26:23.35
Amen. Wayne,
that's a great thought.
00:26:23.38\00:26:25.41
And so for audience out there,
00:26:25.45\00:26:27.18
we definitely want
to let you know that
00:26:27.22\00:26:29.05
that as we have
shared our history
00:26:29.08\00:26:31.65
you can see how the
identity has gotten so confused
00:26:31.69\00:26:34.89
by the
circumstances and the situations
00:26:34.92\00:26:37.03
that were done in
vitro as well as the things
00:26:37.06\00:26:40.03
after we were born and
as we were being raised,
00:26:40.06\00:26:42.40
we know that you
also probably know
00:26:42.43\00:26:44.77
somebody who is
struggling with homosexuality.
00:26:44.80\00:26:46.94
And so we want to encourage
you and to talk to your pastor,
00:26:46.97\00:26:50.87
take it to the local conference
00:26:50.91\00:26:52.24
as well as the
general conference
00:26:52.27\00:26:53.91
and to let them know
that you need these resources
00:26:53.94\00:26:56.58
that you want to be able to
reach out to this community.
00:26:56.61\00:26:59.25
And so as you, as
you write your letters
00:26:59.28\00:27:02.78
and call your local
pastor, we want to encourage you
00:27:02.82\00:27:06.32
that we can
actually get the word out
00:27:06.35\00:27:08.42
that there is redemption
available for homosexuals.
00:27:08.46\00:27:11.26
And so, Wayne, if you
would give us our final thought.
00:27:11.29\00:27:15.23
You know, as a
prodigal returning
00:27:15.26\00:27:18.23
versus the church body,
it's so important for us
00:27:18.27\00:27:21.10
to keep the spirit of
humility with one another.
00:27:21.14\00:27:24.37
My returning and forgiving
the church for their ignorance
00:27:24.41\00:27:28.04
and the church
in forgiving itself
00:27:28.08\00:27:30.05
for not having addressed this
00:27:30.08\00:27:31.41
over all these
years, get involved now.
00:27:31.45\00:27:33.78
Great.
00:27:33.82\00:27:35.75
So as we come to a
conclusion, we want to thank you
00:27:35.78\00:27:38.35
for watching our
program on Identity Matters.
00:27:38.39\00:27:40.76
As you've experienced today,
identity truly does matter
00:27:40.79\00:27:44.39
and we want to encourage
you to continue watching
00:27:44.43\00:27:46.46
as Coming Out
Ministry hosts on Pure Choices
00:27:46.49\00:27:50.07
during the next several days.
00:27:50.10\00:27:52.77