The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Hi, I'm Mike Carducci
with Coming Out Ministries,
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your host on "Pure Choices."
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Today, I have with
me my other members
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from Coming Out Ministries,
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Ron Woolsey,
who is also a pastor
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and Wayne Blakely.
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My name is Mike Carducci
and our special guest today
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also is Elder Raymond King.
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I want to thank you,
gentlemen, for being here today.
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Our topic today is
"Christian Homosexuality."
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Wayne, Ron and I have
come from the gay lifestyle,
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as experiencing the
restoration and redemption
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through Jesus Christ,
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we have a
ministry of reaching out
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to not only the
homosexual community
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but also to
those in church culture
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who may be
looking for opportunities
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and ways to reach
out to the homosexual
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and to those that
have been sexually defiled
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in our church and
in our communities.
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So today, we want to talk
about Christian homosexuality
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and I'll begin
with the first question.
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Within the gay community,
there's a significant number
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who refer to
themselves as gay Christians.
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Obviously many
homosexuals do love the Lord.
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They love their church,
they love the fellowship
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and want to hang on
to their Christian roots.
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Is there a problem here?
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I believe there's a problem here
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simply because Jesus
himself said in Matthew 7:21
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"Not every one
that saith unto me,
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Lord, Lord, shall enter
into the kingdom of heaven."
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And so when we attached the,
the name Christian to a sin,
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it's kind of like baptizing sin
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or, you know, we talk about
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baptizing
paganism in our history.
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We don't, we don't accept
terms like Christian drugs
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or Christian adultery
or Christian pedophilia
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and all of that and yet,
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you know, like the
question states here,
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many homosexuals are
hanging on to their church roots
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and there are
legitimate reasons for doing so,
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that the term
Christian, we need to analyze
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what does it
mean to be a Christian
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and can you truly be a
Christian and a homosexual.
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I mean, that's kind of
the way I picture this,
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to me it's kind of
an oxymoron that you--
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How can you be a
Christian and a homosexual
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or how could you be
a Christian adulterer,
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a Christian murderer, you
know, and that type of thing.
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So to me it's something
that is a viable discussion.
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Now I have to add
to that also if you--
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First you have to
come to an agreement that,
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that term gay connotate sin
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and if you
haven't arrived at that,
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then you probably won't
see it as an, as an oxymoron.
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But when someone comes out
the way we used to come out,
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not like this ministry today
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which is the true
coming out of darkness
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but when we came
out in our old life,
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we declared that we
were gay which indicated
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that we wanted to have--
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If we had intimacy,
it would be the desire
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of intimacy with the same sex.
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Well, if we look
throughout God's Word,
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there's no support for that.
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Nowhere in God's
Word does God condone
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or direct us to a
same-sex intimate relationship.
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And so why would I...
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As a Christian
I can't understand
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why I would attach
the word gay to Christian
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because it truly
is as I've described
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that the reason why
it really is an oxymoron
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and the same also with
someone who let's say they--
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You know, we know
that adultery is a sin,
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you wouldn't come
back into the church
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redeemed from by Jesus Christ
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and come back and identify
as a Christian adulterer
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or as Paul in the Bible
who used to kill Christians
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as a redeemed
Christian, he didn't identify
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as a Christian
killing Christian.
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And so it doesn't
really make any sense.
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Okay, so let me play
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the other side
just a little bit.
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What if somebody
identifies as gay
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but they're still
willing to come to church,
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you know, isn't
that something that
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should be consider helpful?
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I think it's important to
also and loop your question,
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there are lot of individuals
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who have a
same-gender attraction
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but they're not
acting on that attraction
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and they've been told
that if you just have that,
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that desire or the attraction,
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then you're
homosexual or you are gay.
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That is not the truth
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and I think it's important
for us to understand that
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there are people
who are Christians,
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who are struggling with
that same-gender attraction
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but they are still Christians.
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They are different from those
who have embraced the desire
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and are acting on the desire
and still are expecting God
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to accept them
in that lifestyle.
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So it is very, very important
I think because when we,
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there's gentlemen
by the name of Justin,
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he is the director of
the Gay Christian Network
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and I'll talk
with him personally
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and even in that
that organization
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there are two trend of thought.
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There are
"homosexuals" who believe that
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God accept them
in their completeness
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and I mean, been
intimate with each other
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but yet another
group that say as well,
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"Yet I may have this attraction
but God did not allow me
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to act on it even
in that organization."
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So I think it's
important that we differentiate
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between those who are call
themselves "gay Christians"
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because they act on it
as well as opposed adults
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who call
themselves gay Christians
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because they are told
that 'cause of their desire
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that they are
gay and that's not,
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that's not true.
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You know, it's
interesting about that
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that one is a giving in
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and the other
one is a surrender.
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Okay.
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I think that's an
important delineation.
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I was going to build
on that very thought there
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because when I was
trying to come back to the Lord,
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I was sin sick.
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You know, I had that
enmity in my heart for who I was
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and my life of
shame and degradation.
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And when I was
coming to the Lord,
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I was wanting to distance
myself from that identity.
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I wanted salvation from
it. I wanted to come out of it.
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I didn't want to
forever be labeled
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as something that I hated.
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And so if we hate
sin which, you know,
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God wants to give
us that hatred for sin
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and if we hate it,
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why do we want to
carry that label around?
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And so we probably need to,
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you know, look at
the term Christian,
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what does it
mean if a homosexual
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is coming to the Lord
to become a Christian,
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what does that mean
to become a Christian?
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And to me, we have to look
at the definition of Christian,
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what does that mean.
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You know, Ron, I'm
glad you brought that up
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because as
we've been dialoguing,
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I think about my own experience.
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I came into the
church, I got baptized
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while I still had a
boyfriend and a sexual addiction
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and I know that
people may have been
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picking up on my mannerisms
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or some of the
overt stuff but truly I...
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All I knew is that
Jesus love me for who I was
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and He had given
me the invitation
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to accept His grace.
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I accepted it,
thinking that God was going
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to accept me in my
homosexual identity
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and as I got baptized I came up
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out of the water
hoping that well,
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you know, may be
He could change me
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but obviously when I came
up I was still a sexual addict
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and with a boyfriend.
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But God began
this journey with me
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and as I continued to
accept the knowledge that I had,
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I continue to grow
and to understand more
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of His grace and how that work.
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It was several months before
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I recognize that the
Bible was saying that
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it was an
abomination which again threw me
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into a tailspin wondering,
how could He even address this
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when all my life I thought that
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that was how I was
born and who I was.
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I even thought as far as that
God had created me that way.
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But again as I
continue to walk with God,
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you know, He brought me
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into more and
more understanding,
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not necessarily by
resources through the church
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but by studying His Word
and reading Spirit of Prophecy
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to find that there
were promises there
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that I could hold on to.
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And so for church member
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who would have an open
homosexual in their church,
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what's their criteria,
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if they would have known that
I was in a gay relationship,
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I'm sure that they
would not have baptized me.
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But again what comes
to my mind is that thing--
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In the Bible, the
verse in the Bible that says,
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"My ways are not your ways,
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My thoughts are
not your thoughts."
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And I believe that Jesus knew
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that I was so broken down
with my relationship with men
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that what He had to
do is he had to hook me
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into the understanding
that He accepted me
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for who I was which is
truth but not all the truth.
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And as I started to
walk with Him legitimately,
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He started to
reveal Himself to me
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as someone I
could love and trust in.
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As that grew, I was able
to handle more information.
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But again, doesn't
that create a dilemma
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then in our church
culture, you know, at what point
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do we accept
homosexuals into our church
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and this
understanding of gay Christian?
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You touched on something there
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that I think we should
build on as a, as a panel here.
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And you said something
about beginning a journey
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and that's what
the Christian life is.
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When you accept Christ,
you are becoming a Christian
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which means you're accepting Him
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as Lord and Master.
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It's like you're
entering a school,
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a school of discipleship--
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Discipleship you
enter the discipline
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not the spanking,
not the punishing,
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but a school of
training of education.
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And you follow that instructor,
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that Leader your
Lord and your Master.
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You feed on every word He says,
you incorporated, you digested,
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you assimilated, it
becomes a part of you.
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And so my understanding
of being a Christian is,
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you are now entering a life
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where you are
patterning yourself
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after that Lord and Master.
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And so to resist that,
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to hang on to your homosexuality
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is not entering that
school of discipleship,
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it's bringing
the baggage with you
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carrying it
with you on a journey
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and for and
refusing to let it go.
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I think that's also, you
know, that what you're saying
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there is beginning
to lay the groundwork
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for the church, the sanctuary.
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You know, we don't...
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We expect people in the
past to have lost their spots
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before they
enter the church doors.
00:11:46.84\00:11:49.27
And so I think this
is starting to say that
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"Yes, gays need to be
welcome to come into the church"
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because where are
you going to learn
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if you're not going to learn
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in the presence of
God and His believers.
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Yes, yes.
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So as well defined
members of the church,
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it used to be
that you would say,
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"I don't know, you know,
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because they're
gonna be an influence
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on my young one or that,
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you know, like it might rub off.
00:12:13.43\00:12:15.43
Well, there's a
difference between
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someone who's in a
membership position
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and someone who is coming,
who is thirsty, who is hungry.
00:12:19.67\00:12:22.80
And so I think if we
would take the approach
00:12:22.84\00:12:25.77
again of reflecting
the love of Jesus Christ,
00:12:25.81\00:12:28.34
loving the person not
with a judgmental attitude,
00:12:28.38\00:12:32.21
but by continuing to
present His grace, His mercy,
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His beauty, His truth
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and to invite that person
into a loving relationship
00:12:37.89\00:12:40.96
with Jesus Christ where we
can study things out together.
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And the Bible asks us
00:12:44.26\00:12:45.59
to come together
and reason together.
00:12:45.63\00:12:48.03
And so if you're
worried about your children,
00:12:48.06\00:12:50.97
make sure that your
representation to your children
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is in a way that
you're inviting them
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into the same
relationship with Jesus
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as you're
inviting the gay couple
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or the gay people that
might be coming into the church.
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My concern is if
we never address it,
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then we allow humanity to accept
00:13:09.58\00:13:14.96
the erroneous statement
and erroneous labeling.
00:13:14.99\00:13:22.30
If you see a gay Christian,
there are lot of Christians
00:13:22.33\00:13:26.23
who love the Lord and
they're not even sure--
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Who they are. Who they are...
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Or if you can't be
a Christian and be gay
00:13:31.11\00:13:33.34
because we don't
address in the church.
00:13:33.38\00:13:35.31
So I'm saying-- I think that
00:13:35.34\00:13:36.68
it's important that we
actually start to address this
00:13:36.71\00:13:40.32
because it's
important not only for the sake
00:13:40.35\00:13:43.22
of those who want to
minister to these individuals
00:13:43.25\00:13:46.39
but it's important
for those individuals
00:13:46.42\00:13:48.42
If I'm told by and, you know,
the law of forming churches.
00:13:48.46\00:13:54.20
If I'm told by
these churches well,
00:13:54.23\00:13:56.77
you can be homosexual
and God will accept you
00:13:56.80\00:14:00.04
and I had no counterbalance,
then I'm gonna believe that lie
00:14:00.07\00:14:03.77
because obviously
that's a easier lifestyle
00:14:03.81\00:14:07.74
to embrace than to
break off the whole practice.
00:14:07.78\00:14:11.91
So I also admit
that we have to start
00:14:11.95\00:14:14.95
dealing within the church,
so that we can educate people
00:14:14.98\00:14:18.39
enough where they
will accept that lie about
00:14:18.42\00:14:21.12
being a practicing homosexual
00:14:21.16\00:14:23.73
and a Christian
at the same time.
00:14:23.76\00:14:25.09
We need to listen, you
know, look at the words
00:14:25.13\00:14:27.03
of I think John the Baptist
who was confronting people
00:14:27.06\00:14:31.43
who were wanting to be baptized.
00:14:31.47\00:14:33.84
And as I recall he
was speaking to Pharisees
00:14:33.87\00:14:36.91
and various people who
were wanting to be baptized
00:14:36.94\00:14:40.21
because it was a
popular thing to do.
00:14:40.24\00:14:42.04
And he says, no, no, no.
00:14:42.08\00:14:43.41
He said, "Bring forth
fruit meet for repentance."
00:14:43.45\00:14:46.72
In other words
before you take this step,
00:14:46.75\00:14:48.68
you need to demonstrate
00:14:48.72\00:14:50.05
that you're
willing to let things go.
00:14:50.09\00:14:51.65
Repentance means that you are,
00:14:51.69\00:14:53.69
you're going to
change your life.
00:14:53.72\00:14:55.22
You...
00:14:55.26\00:14:56.59
It doesn't mean
that you're perfect.
00:14:56.62\00:14:58.19
Repentance means
you're submissive,
00:14:58.23\00:15:00.90
you're willing to be transformed
00:15:00.93\00:15:03.83
and if you bring forth
00:15:03.87\00:15:05.20
and demonstrate
through your life
00:15:05.23\00:15:07.87
that you are
willing to let things go
00:15:07.90\00:15:10.41
and you're
willing to grow in Christ,
00:15:10.44\00:15:13.27
then you are ready for baptism.
00:15:13.31\00:15:17.05
But if you're
bringing that with you,
00:15:17.08\00:15:18.98
you're not willing to let it go
00:15:19.01\00:15:20.78
and you're constantly
identifying with that sin,
00:15:20.82\00:15:23.72
you had this
perpetual negative reinforcement
00:15:23.75\00:15:27.52
always calling
yourself homosexual,
00:15:27.56\00:15:29.39
you'll never rise above that
00:15:29.42\00:15:31.59
if you're constantly
reinforcing it in your mind.
00:15:31.63\00:15:34.80
And, you know,
when I wrote my book,
00:15:34.83\00:15:36.70
I was asked to use a
pen name for my protection
00:15:36.73\00:15:40.47
because another
author had been tracked down
00:15:40.50\00:15:44.24
and his house was
burned to the ground
00:15:44.27\00:15:46.11
for even
addressing the gay issue.
00:15:46.14\00:15:49.34
And so I spent more time
coming up with the pen name
00:15:49.38\00:15:52.45
than in writing
the book actually,
00:15:52.48\00:15:54.68
but I came up with
the name Victor J Adamson.
00:15:54.72\00:15:58.05
I was contracted
on radio talk shows
00:15:58.09\00:16:00.12
around the
nation for three years
00:16:00.16\00:16:02.09
always being called Victor.
00:16:02.12\00:16:03.46
Well, what did
that do for me? I was...
00:16:03.49\00:16:06.09
I became known as
Victor, positive reinforcement.
00:16:06.13\00:16:09.90
Everyday I was being
called Victor, Victor, Victor
00:16:09.93\00:16:13.10
and now I had a
name to live up to
00:16:13.13\00:16:15.47
and I had to make sure
that I die daily to Christ
00:16:15.50\00:16:18.74
and that I was
submissive to Christ
00:16:18.77\00:16:20.14
because suppose
I had a major fall,
00:16:20.18\00:16:23.78
what would that do
to that name Victor?
00:16:23.81\00:16:25.78
How would that reproach Christ?
00:16:25.81\00:16:27.85
I'm taking His
name as a Christian
00:16:27.88\00:16:29.88
and I didn't want to do that.
00:16:29.92\00:16:31.62
And so I had to
let the gay thing go
00:16:31.65\00:16:33.92
and, you know, we
will never rise above
00:16:33.96\00:16:38.19
the goal we set for ourselves.
00:16:38.23\00:16:40.36
And so Victor is a goal
00:16:40.40\00:16:42.03
and to me it
was important to let
00:16:42.06\00:16:46.03
all of those other
things go, get rid of them,
00:16:46.07\00:16:48.57
let them be washed away.
00:16:48.60\00:16:51.44
You know, I've been noticing
00:16:51.47\00:16:52.81
a Christian
cultural change today
00:16:52.84\00:16:57.21
which is really
called affirmation theology
00:16:57.25\00:17:01.62
versus reformation theology.
00:17:01.65\00:17:04.15
and so, I talk to people today
about the feel-good messages
00:17:04.19\00:17:08.89
that come from many pulpits
that affirm you who you are.
00:17:08.92\00:17:12.59
Jesus loves you
just the way you are.
00:17:12.63\00:17:15.50
You don't need to do anything.
00:17:15.53\00:17:17.47
You don't need to change
but and the fact of the matter
00:17:17.50\00:17:20.40
is that absolutely
Jesus does love you
00:17:20.44\00:17:22.87
just the way you are,
00:17:22.90\00:17:24.24
but He doesn't
want to leave you there.
00:17:24.27\00:17:25.61
Exactly. Yeah.
00:17:25.64\00:17:26.98
And so as we come
to know Jesus Christ,
00:17:27.01\00:17:29.14
a reformation will take place,
00:17:29.18\00:17:31.58
but if we don't begin
to speak from the platforms
00:17:31.61\00:17:34.72
or in our Bible studies
or in our prayer meetings
00:17:34.75\00:17:37.99
about what is
possible through Jesus Christ,
00:17:38.02\00:17:40.26
then we run the
risk of rewriting
00:17:40.29\00:17:43.02
the Word of God
according to the flesh.
00:17:43.06\00:17:45.23
The Bible says,
00:17:45.26\00:17:46.59
"Woe unto him who call of
evil good, and good evil."
00:17:46.63\00:17:50.57
My concern is what about
the publications, the media,
00:17:50.60\00:17:56.54
even the movies
that are coming out
00:17:56.57\00:17:59.27
are trying to legitimize
the oxymoron of gay Christian.
00:17:59.31\00:18:04.78
My concern is what
damage is that doing
00:18:04.81\00:18:07.95
for the person who
is really struggling?
00:18:07.98\00:18:09.92
Are we giving permission
now to let go to struggle
00:18:09.95\00:18:12.75
and to embrace
what the perversion?
00:18:12.79\00:18:15.62
This is the danger in my
mind, this is the struggle
00:18:15.66\00:18:18.33
for me as I see
things being like this
00:18:18.36\00:18:20.50
being proliferated
across Christianity
00:18:20.53\00:18:23.37
through our churches and
through our universities.
00:18:23.40\00:18:25.77
What happens
when you have people,
00:18:25.80\00:18:27.44
who are going
forward with a loud message
00:18:27.47\00:18:31.41
that about something
00:18:31.44\00:18:33.27
that they really don't
know a whole lot about?
00:18:33.31\00:18:35.88
You know, you're bound
00:18:35.91\00:18:37.48
to bite off and chew and swallow
00:18:37.51\00:18:40.72
the very first
thing that's given to you
00:18:40.75\00:18:43.22
rather than
studying something out.
00:18:43.25\00:18:45.22
And the
Hollywood type of approach
00:18:45.25\00:18:47.12
to something
like that can be done
00:18:47.16\00:18:48.62
in such a way
that great sympathy
00:18:48.66\00:18:51.06
is put out there for the person
who has suffered the isolation,
00:18:51.09\00:18:55.06
the rejection and the alienation
00:18:55.10\00:18:57.20
and it grounds them in their sin
00:18:57.23\00:19:00.60
instead of what's
possible through Jesus Christ.
00:19:00.64\00:19:03.00
If the believer
doesn't understand
00:19:03.04\00:19:04.91
what's being done to them,
00:19:04.94\00:19:06.27
basically they're
being brainwashed.
00:19:06.31\00:19:08.78
This also seems to
have an application
00:19:08.81\00:19:12.48
even in our
colleges and universities.
00:19:12.51\00:19:15.32
We have a forum
that's on the internet
00:19:15.35\00:19:17.79
where we've
actually been dialoguing
00:19:17.82\00:19:20.42
with a professor
from a university
00:19:20.46\00:19:22.76
that is actually
calling himself a gay Christian.
00:19:22.79\00:19:25.53
And what's amazing to us
is a teacher who has tenure
00:19:25.56\00:19:30.57
in a Christian school
00:19:30.60\00:19:32.50
is actually
promoting this understanding
00:19:32.53\00:19:34.60
that he is a gay
celibate Christian.
00:19:34.64\00:19:37.07
A Christian
school. Right. Right.
00:19:37.11\00:19:38.54
And that, that the
theology that I have is going
00:19:38.57\00:19:43.01
to cause gays and
lesbians to commit suicide.
00:19:43.04\00:19:47.52
And so it was a
difficult struggle
00:19:47.55\00:19:49.38
to have this continued
dialogue back and forth
00:19:49.42\00:19:53.22
because I felt
that the professor
00:19:53.25\00:19:57.63
began to accept his
feelings to equal truth
00:19:57.66\00:20:01.16
and couldn't find any
really biblical backing
00:20:01.20\00:20:04.47
to help me realized that
00:20:04.50\00:20:06.43
what he was
stating was biblical truth.
00:20:06.47\00:20:08.90
It really was just based
upon what his feelings were.
00:20:08.94\00:20:11.91
And so it's really
sad to see someone be able
00:20:11.94\00:20:13.98
to go to class and to tell this
00:20:14.01\00:20:15.81
to multiple individuals
while I'm having difficulty
00:20:15.84\00:20:19.65
a lot of times
getting on to the university
00:20:19.68\00:20:22.48
or into the church talking about
00:20:22.52\00:20:24.45
what Jesus Christ
has done in my life
00:20:24.49\00:20:26.29
and that I know
through my own experience,
00:20:26.32\00:20:29.12
as we know from our experiences
00:20:29.16\00:20:30.96
what Jesus has
done in our lives,
00:20:30.99\00:20:33.09
but people don't
want to hear it, sometimes
00:20:33.13\00:20:35.20
because it won't
affirm their feelings,
00:20:35.23\00:20:37.43
leaving them where they are.
00:20:37.47\00:20:41.54
The political issue and
that is we have churches,
00:20:41.57\00:20:46.21
Christian schools
who are embracing this
00:20:46.24\00:20:49.01
it embolden the politicians
to continue to force feed
00:20:49.04\00:20:55.35
this whole thing
about it be a natural
00:20:55.38\00:20:57.49
and normal on our society.
00:20:57.52\00:21:00.72
I'm reminded
when we went through
00:21:00.76\00:21:03.46
our just recent
presidential situation
00:21:03.49\00:21:06.80
and you know that the
NAACP was real supportive
00:21:06.83\00:21:11.57
of same gender
marriage and what have you.
00:21:11.60\00:21:14.50
One of the guys that,
00:21:14.54\00:21:16.00
that I dialogued
with made the statement,
00:21:16.04\00:21:18.41
he said, "I could
never support something
00:21:18.44\00:21:21.14
that I fought so hard
to be delivered from."
00:21:21.18\00:21:25.28
And that's so significant
when we get statement,
00:21:25.31\00:21:28.48
but the question is,
00:21:28.52\00:21:30.05
if the church does not
stand up and be delight,
00:21:30.09\00:21:36.12
then we have other
religious organizations
00:21:36.16\00:21:39.56
that call
themselves Christian in church
00:21:39.59\00:21:40.93
and what have
you, they're promoting
00:21:40.96\00:21:42.63
this counterfeit
and that will have
00:21:42.66\00:21:45.00
a devastating
effect on our society.
00:21:45.03\00:21:47.27
This pendulum has
swung so far the other way
00:21:47.30\00:21:50.21
that we even have
heard a story of a woman
00:21:50.24\00:21:53.91
who is married to a
pastor in our denomination
00:21:53.94\00:21:56.98
whose son was in
the gay lifestyle.
00:21:57.01\00:21:59.18
Her son now since has left
the gay lifestyle, got married,
00:21:59.21\00:22:03.35
had a child with this
woman is married and happy
00:22:03.39\00:22:06.22
and his mother still promotes
00:22:06.25\00:22:08.19
that he is gay and he is in a...
00:22:08.22\00:22:10.26
Well, that the
dialogue and about the comment
00:22:10.29\00:22:14.96
about the son was made
is that God does not approve
00:22:15.00\00:22:18.23
of mixed orientation marriage.
00:22:18.27\00:22:20.24
That he is still gay even
he is married with a child
00:22:20.27\00:22:22.77
and she's our pastor's wife.
00:22:22.80\00:22:24.67
So the idea is
that he's living a lie.
00:22:24.71\00:22:27.34
Right. Lord, have mercy.
00:22:27.38\00:22:28.71
And that to me
negates the whole concept
00:22:28.74\00:22:32.65
of being transformed by
the renewing of the mind
00:22:32.68\00:22:36.35
and we're told that
we are to be transformed,
00:22:36.38\00:22:39.39
not conformed to our
tendencies in the world
00:22:39.42\00:22:42.46
but to be transform
the whole thing about
00:22:42.49\00:22:45.19
becoming a Christian
00:22:45.23\00:22:46.56
and which is what
we're talking about
00:22:46.59\00:22:48.43
is about being recreated,
00:22:48.46\00:22:52.83
reformed, transformed,
rehabilitated, reconciled
00:22:52.87\00:22:59.44
and I have heard from,
00:22:59.47\00:23:02.18
I'm sure well-intentioned people
00:23:02.21\00:23:05.15
that they don't need to
worry about their homosexuality,
00:23:05.18\00:23:09.78
they just need
to be Christ-like.
00:23:09.82\00:23:12.95
And so they can be a
Christian homosexual,
00:23:12.99\00:23:14.72
they just need to be Christ-like
00:23:14.76\00:23:16.09
and so immediately I say
well, what was Christ-like?
00:23:16.12\00:23:20.56
If we're going to be
Christ-like as Christians,
00:23:20.60\00:23:23.16
what was Christ-like.
00:23:23.20\00:23:24.97
And we can know through His life
00:23:25.00\00:23:27.77
but also He is
revealed through His Word
00:23:27.80\00:23:31.07
and so we can hang
on every Word of God.
00:23:31.11\00:23:34.58
That reveals
what Christ was like,
00:23:34.61\00:23:36.88
it also reveals what He
likes and what He does not like
00:23:36.91\00:23:41.02
and He makes it very plain
00:23:41.05\00:23:43.08
how He feels about
sexual perversion of any kind
00:23:43.12\00:23:46.79
and many other sin issues.
00:23:46.82\00:23:48.36
So, gentlemen, I want to bring
00:23:48.39\00:23:49.96
this kind of to a conclusion
and you started it, Ron.
00:23:49.99\00:23:53.16
So my next question is
00:23:53.19\00:23:55.16
"Acceptance into
true Christianity
00:23:55.20\00:23:57.73
than conditional and
if so, upon what criteria?
00:23:57.77\00:24:01.64
Then is there
hope for the homosexual
00:24:01.67\00:24:04.27
in relationship
to Christianity?"
00:24:04.31\00:24:06.57
And you started to touch on that
00:24:06.61\00:24:07.94
and I just wondered if we get,
00:24:07.98\00:24:09.31
you know, kind of
end on that note to,
00:24:09.34\00:24:11.75
you know, to show
the redemptive part.
00:24:11.78\00:24:13.52
I think it's
important to recognize
00:24:13.55\00:24:16.12
our needed of a Redeemer
00:24:16.15\00:24:17.52
because if I'm
fine just the way I am,
00:24:17.55\00:24:20.32
why do I need a Redeemer for.
00:24:20.36\00:24:21.99
All right. So it
is a matter of...
00:24:22.02\00:24:25.06
It's a matter
of coming to Jesus,
00:24:25.09\00:24:27.13
you know, that we
here have talked about.
00:24:27.16\00:24:28.93
If I don't group myself
00:24:28.96\00:24:31.67
with other people around me
who have similar attractions
00:24:31.70\00:24:35.40
or similar
temptations and live in that,
00:24:35.44\00:24:38.67
but if I
personally come to Jesus
00:24:38.71\00:24:41.01
and search His will
for me through His Word,
00:24:41.04\00:24:45.01
I begin to see
my need of a Savior
00:24:45.05\00:24:47.58
and that I
constantly need to surrender
00:24:47.62\00:24:50.59
and to abide in Him
00:24:50.62\00:24:52.05
to have any change
take place in my life.
00:24:52.09\00:24:54.22
You know in the story
of the jailer at Philippi
00:24:54.26\00:24:56.52
when Paul and
Silas were in prison
00:24:56.56\00:24:58.69
and they had a great earthquake
00:24:58.73\00:25:00.60
and the jailer came in
00:25:00.63\00:25:02.06
and said, "Sirs, what
must I do to be saved?"
00:25:02.10\00:25:05.47
The answer that Paul gave
the jailer is so significant.
00:25:05.50\00:25:09.47
First of all we need to
know what being saved is,
00:25:09.50\00:25:13.78
Jesus very name means deliverer.
00:25:13.81\00:25:15.84
You should call His name Jesus,
00:25:15.88\00:25:17.21
for He shall save His
people from their sins.
00:25:17.25\00:25:19.61
That's right.
00:25:19.65\00:25:20.98
But Paul's answer
to the jailer was,
00:25:21.02\00:25:23.15
"Believe on the
Lord Jesus Christ,
00:25:23.18\00:25:25.62
and thou shalt be saved."
00:25:25.65\00:25:26.99
And so I looked up the meaning
Lord, quite often in the Bible
00:25:27.02\00:25:31.33
refers to
Jehovah the Great I Am,
00:25:31.36\00:25:33.23
the Self Exist and Eternal One.
00:25:33.26\00:25:35.36
Jesus,
Deliverer, Savior from what?
00:25:35.40\00:25:39.10
From sin.
00:25:39.13\00:25:40.47
And Christ, our
Messiah, the Anointed One,
00:25:40.50\00:25:43.37
you put that all
together and it's so beautiful,
00:25:43.41\00:25:46.24
believe on the
Great Eternal I Am,
00:25:46.27\00:25:49.64
the Self Existent One,
00:25:49.68\00:25:51.01
your Creator
anointed by the Holy Spirit
00:25:51.05\00:25:53.78
to be your
personal savior from sin
00:25:53.82\00:25:56.69
and you shall be saved from sin,
00:25:56.72\00:25:59.72
even the sin of homosexuality.
00:25:59.75\00:26:02.22
Acknowledge your iniquity
00:26:02.26\00:26:03.96
and I will heal your
backsliding God says.
00:26:03.99\00:26:05.99
So we need to understand
00:26:06.03\00:26:07.96
when we come to
Christ as Christians,
00:26:08.00\00:26:10.20
we are coming to be
saved from something.
00:26:10.23\00:26:14.90
If we call Him Savior,
just calling Him Savior
00:26:14.94\00:26:18.07
acknowledges that we need
to be saved from something.
00:26:18.11\00:26:22.91
And John 3:16 again
00:26:22.94\00:26:25.08
you know, comes back and
asks us to believe in Him
00:26:25.11\00:26:28.48
that if we will believe in Him
00:26:28.52\00:26:30.15
instead of believing in self
that He offers us eternal life.
00:26:30.19\00:26:35.19
I'm just
impressed with your ministry
00:26:35.22\00:26:37.36
because you
individuals are proof
00:26:37.39\00:26:41.13
that Christ can
change, Christ will change
00:26:41.16\00:26:45.07
and you also proved that
00:26:45.10\00:26:46.74
you do not carry
your past experiences
00:26:46.77\00:26:51.14
and your path labels once
you become a new creature.
00:26:51.17\00:26:54.08
So you are all a proof
00:26:54.11\00:26:55.98
and you all be the glory to God.
00:26:56.01\00:26:58.75
And, Elder King, we are excited.
00:26:58.78\00:27:00.78
You know the amount of grace
00:27:00.82\00:27:02.65
that was poured
out on our behalf
00:27:02.68\00:27:04.42
of coming out of this lifestyle,
00:27:04.45\00:27:06.02
imagine the confusion
from our earliest years
00:27:06.05\00:27:09.22
of struggling with
same-sex attraction
00:27:09.26\00:27:11.03
and the
misunderstanding of God's grace
00:27:11.06\00:27:13.29
and now to have it poured out
and to be redeemed from that,
00:27:13.33\00:27:16.67
we don't want homosexual
attached to any part of that.
00:27:16.70\00:27:20.14
As a matter of
fact, I believe that
00:27:20.17\00:27:21.54
if we kept that attachment that,
00:27:21.57\00:27:23.71
that cheapens the
power of Jesus Christ
00:27:23.74\00:27:26.44
on the cross to
overcome every sin.
00:27:26.47\00:27:28.24
Amen.
00:27:28.28\00:27:29.61
And so in conclusion,
we definitely believe
00:27:29.64\00:27:33.58
that the word homosexual or gay
00:27:33.62\00:27:35.55
should not be
associated with Christian
00:27:35.58\00:27:37.45
especially because of
the biblical truths that,
00:27:37.49\00:27:39.92
that were
pinching for us at first.
00:27:39.95\00:27:42.02
They were very difficult for me
00:27:42.06\00:27:44.76
especially because I
wanted to keep my boyfriend
00:27:44.79\00:27:47.10
but through His
grace, He's redeemed me
00:27:47.13\00:27:48.90
and I want to
thank you, gentlemen,
00:27:48.93\00:27:50.27
for coming on this
episode of Pure Choices.
00:27:50.30\00:27:52.73
Come back again
and join us soon.
00:27:52.77\00:27:55.07