The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are
cautioned that some material
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Hi, I am Mike Carducci
with Coming Out Ministries,
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your host today
on "Pure Choices."
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I have with me
some very good friends.
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This is Gene and
his wife Bernie Nanton.
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Actually Bernadette, I
guess I should be more formal.
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But we're very informal
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Bernie and Gene
are friends of mine
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from back home in
Greeneville, Tennessee.
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And I asked them to
come today to help to explain
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the beauty that God
puts into His church
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to help with the
redemption process.
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For me, I had,
even as a young child,
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I went to nine
different elementary schools
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before I graduated high school
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and because of that, I
didn't have any long-lasting
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friendships with the boy,
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so I didn't
identify with my gender.
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I had a broken gender identity
which started with my father.
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And from an early, early time,
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I had never
known what it was like
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to have my own
masculinity affirm.
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So what I want to do today is
I want to explore a little bit
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about coming back
into church culture,
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the road that the Lord has
led me to restore the manhood
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that I had been in
search with ever since
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I would say even as a young boy.
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And so, today I want to
introduce Bernie and Gene again
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and then to talk
about our friendship
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that has evolved together.
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Okay.
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So, thanks for coming, Gene
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You're welcome. Thanks, Bernie.
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You're welcome.
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So, one of the first things
that I want to talk about is,
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when was the
first time you met me?
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Well, when we moved
to Greeneville, Tennessee
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which was not that long ago
about three or four years ago
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and we met you at a Bible study.
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And you seem like
a good Christian guy.
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We did detect that
there might have been
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some gay tendency somewhere,
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but it didn't
bother us because...
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You know, we call
that residue, right?
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Okay. Okay.
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So we started our
residue. Right, right.
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But what we saw
instead was the person
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in love with the Lord.
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And that just banished
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any other feelings
that we might have had
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that would have been negative
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towards gays
given our background.
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What I saw was just a
very friendly guy loving
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and for us just
coming to Tennessee,
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it was nice to see somebody
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who was just openly nice to you.
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All right so.
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What I want to talk
a little bit about is
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what kind of history,
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I know that you come
from the Island of Antigua,
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a byway of New York City
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and then down to
Greeneville, Tennessee.
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So you've gone
through culture shock
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probably a couple of times.
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True. Yes.
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All right, so New York
City is full of homosexuals
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and full of every kind of vice
that you can think and so...
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If you would, just kind
of give me a brief history
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of what your exposure
has been to homosexuality
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starting with maybe Antigua
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and then taking
it to New York City
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and then even bringing it
down to here if you would.
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Sure.
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Well growing up in the islands,
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there weren't a
lot of homosexuality,
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it was not rampant or widespread
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like it is here
in the United States
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and it was not
necessarily well accepted.
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You know, we came
from a more "macho culture"
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and we really dist homosexuals.
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So we weren't like
friendly and open to them,
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unless of course they
had warm personalities
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in which case if you
did, but there were so few
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that we really
didn't have a lot of contact
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with homosexuals
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and the little
contact that we did have,
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we didn't really want to
have too much to do with them.
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So was homosexuality in Antigua,
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was it a covert kind of thing,
it was more or less hidden
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or was it something that
was, excuse me, more open.
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Well, we're talking
about when we were in Antigua
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and that was a
good 35 years ago.
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And at that time it
was more covert then overt.
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Okay.
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But there were always a
few who were quite overt.
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Like, like where
I went to school,
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there was one
right across the street
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and he was very flamboyant.
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Was this a high
school or grade school?
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High school. Okay.
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Very flamboyant, but very funny,
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and so therefore you treated him
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just like a funny guy,
he was almost like comedian.
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And so it wasn't for
me there was no dissing.
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It was just that
guy who dresses up
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and make fun and is funny.
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So I didn't see it as anything
but just that, a funny guy.
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Okay.
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You say dressing up,
what do you mean by...
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Dressing up in
his sister's clothes
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and sashaying around the place.
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So he made us laugh, you know,
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but he wasn't going
after the guys at school
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or anything like that.
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So for us, for me it was funny.
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Other than that I
really to be honest,
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I can't remember having
any dealings even in New York
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with anybody who is homosexual.
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We've really
didn't have much contact,
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personal
contact with homosexuals
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until we came
in contact with you
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and you're no
longer a homosexual,
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so that doesn't even count.
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That's right.
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Well, one thing that I,
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that we were
talking earlier about, Gene,
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is you had a certain
confrontation if you would
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when you were a
young man in Antigua.
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Yes. Would you
mind explaining that?
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I was in my teens
and there was a priest,
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I think he was either
an Anglican or a Moravian
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who was known to be homosexual
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and more of a
covert than an overtly.
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You know sometimes people
think that nobody else knows,
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but everybody
knows except the person
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who thinks that
nobody knows about him,
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but I was
approached by him one night.
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He stopped his car next to me
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as I was walking
right into the movies
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and basically
propositioned me, he asked me
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if I would go with
him down to the beach,
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I mean this was at night,
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so you don't go
to the beach at night
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unless you had
some ulterior motive.
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But I was very off put by that.
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Matter of fact, to
be perfectly frank,
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I was pretty
upset and I was like,
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how dare you
even think that to me
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and I was quite
ready to threaten him
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and he just drove off
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but that was my
really only contact
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that I've ever had.
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Okay, so did that contact
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possibly
influence you in any way
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when you heard
about homosexuality
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or when you saw
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say on
television gay pride parades
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or did a thought
ever come into your mind
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of a certain attitude
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or a feeling that would come up?
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Oh, yeah, a very
negative feeling.
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Okay, all right.
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Oh, yeah, like just
don't even come close to me.
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Okay, all right.
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So my next question
then is, when you met me,
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you told us what your
initial impression was
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and I believe
that was Jesus Christ
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what you saw
because if you had seen me
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before in that
lifestyle I believe that,
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that I would have been
a totally different person
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to you at that time.
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So describe the circumstances
of when I joined your church.
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That was interesting.
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You came to our church
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and we accepted
you with open arms.
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Absolutely.
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Actually I was very glad
that you came to our church,
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our church is a
small church as you know.
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How many members?
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Well, at the time we
probably had 12 members.
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Wow. Maybe 14.
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But you know since
you came and since we came
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and more people just started
walking through the door,
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and I believe in many ways,
you were responsible for that.
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Can I say
Michael's like a magnet.
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He is.
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From the time you
joined the church,
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so many more
people came to church.
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I don't know if
they're following you at first
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or they were just
liking our church.
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But I found a lot of people came
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either when you're speaking
or maybe when you invited them.
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But again coming
back to that person
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who is loving and
always willing to talk to you
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and give you a hug and
ask you how you're doing
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when most people
don't even notice,
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you notice everything.
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You notice if your
dress is not fitting right
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or if you're looking sad
or your hair don't look right.
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It's a gift and a curse, right?
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So because of that,
you attracted more people,
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more ladies
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because they know
that you will tell them,
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hey, Bernie, let me
fix your hair for you
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or something or, you
know, that sort of stuff.
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So I think that
there is that overly,
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like I need a friend
attitude that comes from you
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and somebody might
look at it negative,
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but most people I
think look at that positive
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and so they become
more into speaking with you
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and getting to know you.
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Well, let me add a little
bit to this because it's not,
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it's not all what,
what you may perceive
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because at the time
that I came to your church,
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I had belonged to another church
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for about six years.
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And in this church
everyone again knew my history,
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but what I really
wasn't getting is,
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I wasn't getting an affirmation
from the men at my church.
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So matter of fact,
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I was the Sabbath
school superintendent
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and I was on the
board and I'd ask the pastor
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if we could have
a men's ministry,
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because I needed to know
what that type of healing was,
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you know, to be affirmed
by men not in a sexual way,
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but in an intimate way,
you being included and being,
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you know, part of the men.
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And so he said, well, Mike,
come to the meeting tonight
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and pitch your idea and I
had a speaker all lined up
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and we were
going to use this camp,
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you don't have
like a men's retreat.
00:10:26.79\00:10:28.76
So I brought my books, you know,
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I made my pitch to the board
and one of the good doctors
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that were sitting on the
board in front of the pastor
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and the head elder looked me
square in the eye and he said,
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I don't want to be
running around in the woods
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like a bunch of gay men
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and that was
such an affront to me
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but to tell you the truth,
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I wish that was the
only time that, that happen.
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And through this
six years, you know,
00:10:48.48\00:10:50.58
I would go back
home and I would say,
00:10:50.61\00:10:52.01
God, you know, I
hate this church,
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I hate these people here
whatever and God said, "Well,
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are you serving me or
you gonna serve them."
00:10:56.48\00:10:58.99
And it was a constant, you
know, humbling myself again
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and just saying, well, I'll stay
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because that's where
you're sending me and I got,
00:11:04.49\00:11:07.16
I guess it as much as you would,
00:11:07.20\00:11:08.76
I got very
comfortable with that.
00:11:08.80\00:11:10.27
So when I had a Bible study
00:11:10.30\00:11:12.73
that they wanted
to try your church
00:11:12.77\00:11:14.77
and you remember I
brought them to lunch
00:11:14.80\00:11:16.44
and because of you,
they said, Mike, you know,
00:11:16.47\00:11:19.31
we're really not comfortable
in that other church,
00:11:19.34\00:11:21.01
we would like to
try this little church.
00:11:21.04\00:11:22.38
And I prayed and I said, well,
God what I might gonna to do,
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you know, take my
friends to this little church
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and drop them off
and go back to church in.
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And I basically got the release
from God saying, No, Mike,
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go with them, stay with
them and so that was my release
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and when I, when I came
into your church, you know,
00:11:35.72\00:11:38.16
I looked at the head
elder and I said, hi, you know,
00:11:38.19\00:11:40.46
I come from homosexuality
and sexual addiction
00:11:40.50\00:11:43.43
and do you have any room
in your church, and he said,
00:11:43.47\00:11:45.37
sure, have a seat
with all the other sinners
00:11:45.40\00:11:47.44
and can you
preach every now and then
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because we don't
have a regular preacher.
00:11:48.84\00:11:50.61
So, I mean the reception
that I got at your church,
00:11:50.64\00:11:54.08
it was almost like it was
00:11:54.11\00:11:55.91
something that
hadn't been discovered yet.
00:11:55.94\00:11:58.08
And so all I did
was turn people on to it
00:11:58.11\00:12:01.42
that I felt would
appreciate the openness,
00:12:01.45\00:12:04.65
the loving reception
that I got from your church,
00:12:04.69\00:12:07.49
so it wasn't
what they saw in me,
00:12:07.52\00:12:09.59
I believe that's what
they saw in the church
00:12:09.62\00:12:11.56
and watch that Holy
Spirit was leading them to.
00:12:11.59\00:12:15.23
But anyway, something's
really majorly change for me,
00:12:15.26\00:12:18.37
Gene, and they
basically came from you.
00:12:18.40\00:12:20.90
And I believe
that God was using you
00:12:20.94\00:12:22.67
as God with skin on
because there was...
00:12:22.70\00:12:26.24
There was one
time, it was actually
00:12:26.27\00:12:27.74
the first foot
washing service that we had
00:12:27.78\00:12:30.75
and it's such a small church,
00:12:30.78\00:12:32.55
there are two little
rooms behind the pulpit.
00:12:32.58\00:12:35.35
And anyway, the
men were in one room
00:12:35.38\00:12:37.49
and the women were in the other
and it was very tight quarters.
00:12:37.52\00:12:40.29
And so in these
tiny little rooms,
00:12:40.32\00:12:41.79
you know, the water is
being passed around in the pans
00:12:41.82\00:12:44.03
and there was a
guy with one foot
00:12:44.06\00:12:45.39
and I washed his one foot
and I thought I got off easy,
00:12:45.43\00:12:47.90
so I turn around as
I'm getting ready to leave
00:12:47.93\00:12:50.60
and you
approached me and you said.
00:12:50.63\00:12:52.23
Mike, has somebody served you.
00:12:52.27\00:12:53.60
And I said, "Yeah, I served
you know, one legged Willie,
00:12:53.64\00:12:56.30
so you looked at me
and you said, no, Mike,
00:12:56.34\00:12:58.31
I want to serve you.
00:12:58.34\00:13:00.01
Now I might know a little
bit more than the situation now,
00:13:00.04\00:13:02.74
but to me at that time, I
really saw it as unnecessary.
00:13:02.78\00:13:06.48
I certainly saw it as
you wanted to reach out to me
00:13:06.51\00:13:11.19
which I wasn't used to
and because I was so used
00:13:11.22\00:13:13.76
to the rejection
of men, you know,
00:13:13.79\00:13:15.79
in church culture
that I really thought
00:13:15.82\00:13:17.29
it was even
unnecessary and kind of like,
00:13:17.33\00:13:20.16
I don't know why
you would bother, right.
00:13:20.20\00:13:22.50
But you push the
issue and you insisted
00:13:22.53\00:13:24.60
and so I thought, all
right, I sat down as I,
00:13:24.63\00:13:27.50
as you started
to serve me, Gene,
00:13:27.54\00:13:29.54
you started to pour
over me the love of Jesus
00:13:29.57\00:13:32.74
just in a personal way,
you, you started telling me
00:13:32.77\00:13:35.58
what a joy it was to
have me there, you know,
00:13:35.61\00:13:38.65
the good things
that you'd observed in
00:13:38.68\00:13:40.58
and just affirmations.
00:13:40.62\00:13:42.02
You weren't trying to puff me up
00:13:42.05\00:13:43.39
but you were affirming to me
00:13:43.42\00:13:45.15
that I belong
there which was something
00:13:45.19\00:13:47.36
that I wasn't
getting from church culture.
00:13:47.39\00:13:49.62
And so as you were
bathing me in that,
00:13:49.66\00:13:52.03
I'm looking and I'm just in awe
00:13:52.06\00:13:53.66
that somebody would bother
to extend themselves to me.
00:13:53.70\00:13:57.33
And then when you
started to pray for me,
00:13:57.37\00:13:59.17
all the men in that room came up
00:13:59.20\00:14:01.14
and they put their hands on
me and that was so incredible,
00:14:01.17\00:14:04.54
because I don't
even think that you know
00:14:04.57\00:14:06.27
what you were doing,
but by acknowledging me
00:14:06.31\00:14:09.18
and including me in the men,
00:14:09.21\00:14:10.75
just doing whatever
the Holy Spirit was saying
00:14:10.78\00:14:12.48
include the new guy, he
might be a little strange
00:14:12.51\00:14:15.15
but you know include him, right.
00:14:15.18\00:14:17.29
But by doing that, what
you were doing, you was,
00:14:17.32\00:14:19.32
you were affirming
to me and the healing
00:14:19.35\00:14:21.92
that I experienced from
that has actually elevated me
00:14:21.96\00:14:25.39
to recognize that,
that God did make the male
00:14:25.43\00:14:28.30
and female and that he
made me male purposefully.
00:14:28.33\00:14:31.37
And as I started to
get that affirmation
00:14:31.40\00:14:33.57
that in itself is healing.
00:14:33.60\00:14:35.07
So, you may not
have recognized that
00:14:35.10\00:14:37.61
but that I think
began our friendship.
00:14:37.64\00:14:40.41
The Lord does work
in mysterious ways.
00:14:40.44\00:14:41.98
Yes, yes, incredible.
00:14:42.01\00:14:43.35
Because I wasn't out
to affirm your masculinity
00:14:43.38\00:14:46.82
'cause in my eyes I
never questioned it.
00:14:46.85\00:14:49.95
I wanted to wash your feet
00:14:49.98\00:14:51.45
and I specifically
wanted to wash your feet
00:14:51.49\00:14:54.49
because even
though you don't recall it
00:14:54.52\00:14:56.16
at this time, we
did have a conflict,
00:14:56.19\00:14:58.93
but you didn't even
see it is a conflict,
00:14:58.96\00:15:00.63
but I saw it as a conflict.
00:15:00.66\00:15:02.20
I knew that you were going to
become a leader in our church,
00:15:02.23\00:15:05.00
simply because of
your forthrightness,
00:15:05.03\00:15:07.50
your love for the Lord
00:15:07.54\00:15:09.00
and the way that
you're not afraid to stand up
00:15:09.04\00:15:11.44
and to speak and to speak truly.
00:15:11.47\00:15:13.68
And we had a little discussion
because we had prayer meeting
00:15:13.71\00:15:19.55
and because our
pastor only comes,
00:15:19.58\00:15:22.18
he handles three
churches as you know,
00:15:22.22\00:15:24.45
so he only comes
to prayer meeting
00:15:24.49\00:15:25.82
every other week.
00:15:25.85\00:15:27.19
So one week, I would take
it and the other week he would.
00:15:27.22\00:15:29.69
But the week when I
took it, we did Bible study
00:15:29.72\00:15:32.53
and the week when he took
it, we did prayer meeting.
00:15:32.56\00:15:35.36
And you had said to me,
00:15:35.40\00:15:36.90
if it's gonna be prayer meeting,
00:15:36.93\00:15:38.33
it should be prayer
meeting and not Bible study.
00:15:38.37\00:15:40.44
Have mercy. And
needless to say, I was no.
00:15:40.47\00:15:42.80
We need Bible study too.
00:15:42.84\00:15:44.51
So I felt that
we had a conflict.
00:15:44.54\00:15:46.78
But I recognized
also and this time
00:15:46.81\00:15:48.98
neither of us were
officers in the church,
00:15:49.01\00:15:51.15
but I recognized that it
doesn't make any sense to us
00:15:51.18\00:15:54.38
to have a conflict.
00:15:54.42\00:15:55.88
And the foot
washing is an opportunity
00:15:55.92\00:15:58.52
to address a conflict.
00:15:58.55\00:16:00.36
So whereas I was
addressing a conflict between us
00:16:00.39\00:16:03.09
because I know we
must be on one accord.
00:16:03.12\00:16:05.59
You were actually receiving it
00:16:05.63\00:16:07.76
as an affirmation
of your masculinity
00:16:07.80\00:16:09.93
when I never even questioned it.
00:16:09.96\00:16:11.43
If you're so used to
rejection, then the fact
00:16:11.47\00:16:14.44
that you saw me
as valuable enough
00:16:14.47\00:16:16.27
and that you
saw our relationship
00:16:16.30\00:16:17.77
is valuable enough to
address it and confront it.
00:16:17.81\00:16:20.74
To me for the first time,
00:16:20.78\00:16:22.11
it was actually
somebody reaching out,
00:16:22.14\00:16:23.68
even though you were
looking for reconciliation
00:16:23.71\00:16:25.95
which was the
furthest thing from my mind,
00:16:25.98\00:16:27.92
what it did and I
believe the Holy Spirit
00:16:27.95\00:16:29.65
had intended to do
was again to affirm
00:16:29.68\00:16:32.65
that you saw value in me.
00:16:32.69\00:16:34.79
And I think that, that's
what a lot of homosexuals
00:16:34.82\00:16:36.59
really struggle
with is that, you know,
00:16:36.62\00:16:38.29
if you've been
rejected for so many years
00:16:38.33\00:16:40.20
and some of us in my
ministry had been rejected
00:16:40.23\00:16:42.96
since before they were born.
00:16:43.00\00:16:44.60
And so, if you've experienced
that kind of rejection
00:16:44.63\00:16:46.97
over and over again,
then I think that it has merit
00:16:47.00\00:16:50.21
to tell the body of Christ
that if you want to minister
00:16:50.24\00:16:53.27
to not just
homosexuals, but anyone
00:16:53.31\00:16:55.61
who may be
outside your understanding
00:16:55.64\00:16:58.28
or what you think
your reach is or scope,
00:16:58.31\00:17:00.98
that just by
making them a value,
00:17:01.02\00:17:04.35
holding them as a
value that they're worthwhile
00:17:04.39\00:17:07.29
or that they're worth something,
00:17:07.32\00:17:08.66
right then you start
to create this atmosphere
00:17:08.69\00:17:10.99
that I think not
only will help to heal,
00:17:11.03\00:17:13.63
but also to help
Christians to grow.
00:17:13.66\00:17:16.26
Go ahead.
00:17:16.30\00:17:17.63
You know, what I...
00:17:17.67\00:17:19.13
As I'm listening to
you and thinking about you
00:17:19.17\00:17:21.24
at church and stuff.
00:17:21.27\00:17:22.77
What you being at our
church has done for me
00:17:22.80\00:17:27.34
is to make me
question myself, how does,
00:17:27.38\00:17:30.88
how does the Lord see me?
00:17:30.91\00:17:33.18
How does somebody else see me?
00:17:33.21\00:17:35.12
Whereas you're
looking for save value,
00:17:35.15\00:17:37.49
my worth, what am I worth?
00:17:37.52\00:17:38.99
Does anybody see me
as worthy of anything?
00:17:39.02\00:17:43.22
Whereas when I
think of about you
00:17:43.26\00:17:45.86
and what you're going
through and what you are saying,
00:17:45.89\00:17:47.96
it makes me begin to
look at myself and say Bernie
00:17:48.00\00:17:51.60
in the sight of
Michael or anybody who are you?
00:17:51.63\00:17:56.24
Are you a Christian?
00:17:56.27\00:17:58.37
Are you trying
to be a Christian,
00:17:58.41\00:18:01.14
like what are you doing?
00:18:01.18\00:18:02.88
So instead of just
seen as say homosexuality,
00:18:02.91\00:18:06.31
I'm seeing it the whole picture.
00:18:06.35\00:18:08.28
Each one of us have sinned
00:18:08.32\00:18:09.92
and come short
of the glory of God.
00:18:09.95\00:18:12.19
And until we start looking
at our self in heaven's eyes,
00:18:12.22\00:18:16.62
just trying to
imagine when Jesus look at me,
00:18:16.66\00:18:20.40
I wonder what He sees.
00:18:20.43\00:18:22.33
Then I stop seeing
you as a homosexual
00:18:22.36\00:18:25.20
and I just see
you as a child of God.
00:18:25.23\00:18:27.64
You know, Michael, to pick
up on what Bernie just said.
00:18:27.67\00:18:31.07
You coming to our
church, my attitude before
00:18:31.11\00:18:36.61
to homosexuals
was one of disdain.
00:18:36.64\00:18:39.51
We would even call
them derogatory names.
00:18:39.55\00:18:42.15
But what you did for me
was to make me see myself
00:18:42.18\00:18:48.22
because we have all
sinned as Bernie said
00:18:48.26\00:18:50.43
and fall short
of the glory of God.
00:18:50.46\00:18:52.99
If God could save
you and bring you back
00:18:53.03\00:18:56.26
into the church
despite all the things
00:18:56.30\00:18:58.37
that you
encountered in the church,
00:18:58.40\00:19:00.47
it made me
questioned my own Christianity.
00:19:00.50\00:19:03.64
Am I a Christian to
have such an attitude
00:19:03.67\00:19:06.78
towards people regardless
00:19:06.81\00:19:09.44
whether they have
same-sex attraction or not
00:19:09.48\00:19:12.55
because God sees us
all as sinners to be saved.
00:19:12.58\00:19:17.49
And we need to emulate
Jesus as our role model
00:19:17.52\00:19:21.96
and that's what you did for me.
00:19:21.99\00:19:23.93
You
strengthened my Christianity.
00:19:23.96\00:19:26.59
You allowed me to
get rid of the biases
00:19:26.63\00:19:28.70
and the prejudices that
I had and just take people
00:19:28.73\00:19:33.23
and love people
for what they are,
00:19:33.27\00:19:35.80
so that we can
bring them to Christ.
00:19:35.84\00:19:38.64
You know, it's
awesome to sit in this chair
00:19:38.67\00:19:40.74
and to hear those
things because again,
00:19:40.78\00:19:43.08
it's just, it's like
the Lord just keeps giving
00:19:43.11\00:19:45.61
as we are
having this discussion.
00:19:45.65\00:19:47.88
Again, I just see the
goodness of God to, you know,
00:19:47.92\00:19:50.79
to move me into certain
paths to, to create friendships,
00:19:50.82\00:19:53.36
I thought that our
friendship was just for me.
00:19:53.39\00:19:55.86
And so then
when you start to see
00:19:55.89\00:19:57.53
that it has a
benefit to everybody,
00:19:57.56\00:19:59.59
God doesn't leave
anybody out, right.
00:19:59.63\00:20:01.90
So another
question that I have is.
00:20:01.93\00:20:04.13
How has your relationship
00:20:04.17\00:20:05.50
changed your
understanding of Jesus
00:20:05.53\00:20:07.67
and His ability to change lives?
00:20:07.70\00:20:09.97
How that relates to me?
00:20:10.01\00:20:12.94
Well, how that
relates to me is like that day
00:20:12.97\00:20:15.31
when we had Mother's Day, right.
00:20:15.34\00:20:16.85
And we had all the
roses sitting up there
00:20:16.88\00:20:18.65
and the idea was the men
were gonna serve the women.
00:20:18.68\00:20:21.52
You know, the men had the
meal, the men did the sermon,
00:20:21.55\00:20:23.82
the men did the Sabbath
School, the men did, you know,
00:20:23.85\00:20:26.05
everything, the ladies
didn't have to do anything.
00:20:26.09\00:20:27.72
We even cooked.
00:20:27.76\00:20:29.09
That's right and we
even played the piano.
00:20:29.12\00:20:30.89
Yes. That's right. Right, okay.
00:20:30.93\00:20:32.26
So as we're standing
there, you know, Gene starts
00:20:32.29\00:20:34.30
and he takes out a rose
and he honors his wife, right.
00:20:34.33\00:20:37.23
And then he invites anybody else
00:20:37.27\00:20:38.67
and a little kid
came up an honored
00:20:38.70\00:20:40.04
his mother and there it began.
00:20:40.07\00:20:41.74
So as we started to
honor the women in our church,
00:20:41.77\00:20:44.94
all of sudden
what I realized was
00:20:44.97\00:20:47.04
God was affirming me again
that I was in the boys club
00:20:47.08\00:20:49.84
because I wasn't out
there in the audience,
00:20:49.88\00:20:53.08
I was up there with
the men and even thought,
00:20:53.11\00:20:55.68
you know, my role was minimal
as far as just holding a rose
00:20:55.72\00:20:58.65
and to honor somebody,
00:20:58.69\00:21:00.16
the fact that I was
included as a guy with the guys,
00:21:00.19\00:21:03.99
that in itself
was just basically
00:21:04.03\00:21:06.70
an affirmation to me again.
00:21:06.73\00:21:08.43
Another
situation is Brother Bill,
00:21:08.46\00:21:10.37
you know, it was one
day after, again, you know,
00:21:10.40\00:21:13.30
I have the opportunity now
to give sermon occasionally.
00:21:13.34\00:21:16.60
Brother Bill is our
head elder at the time.
00:21:16.64\00:21:17.97
Yes, yes.
00:21:18.01\00:21:19.34
And so he does, he's great.
00:21:19.37\00:21:21.11
What do you call at
the end of the sermon?
00:21:21.14\00:21:22.48
The benediction.
00:21:22.51\00:21:23.85
Yes, he does a great
benediction, so I was done.
00:21:23.88\00:21:25.85
He comes up and Brother Bill
puts his arm around my waist.
00:21:25.88\00:21:29.42
And normally what I
found that I do with men is
00:21:29.45\00:21:32.19
if I give them a
hug, it's like hug release
00:21:32.22\00:21:34.42
because I really
don't want them to think
00:21:34.46\00:21:35.99
that I'm copping a feel or that,
00:21:36.02\00:21:37.63
you know, it's
going further than that.
00:21:37.66\00:21:39.26
And so for the first time
in ten years to have someone
00:21:39.29\00:21:42.46
holding me around my waist,
I could feel his words coming
00:21:42.50\00:21:46.57
through his chest into
mine and it was the first time
00:21:46.60\00:21:49.14
that I've been held like
that and he wasn't letting go.
00:21:49.17\00:21:51.74
And here I am standing in
front of the whole congregation
00:21:51.77\00:21:54.31
and being affirmed
by Brother Bill as,
00:21:54.34\00:21:56.41
you know, as he's given
this beautiful benediction.
00:21:56.44\00:21:58.65
And just then I realized
that it wasn't a turn on
00:21:58.68\00:22:03.22
and that God was
speaking in my ear
00:22:03.25\00:22:05.05
and He says this
is what it's like Mike
00:22:05.09\00:22:07.86
to be a man and to
be affirmed by men.
00:22:07.89\00:22:10.59
And so he was
using this opportunity
00:22:10.63\00:22:12.79
that wasn't
designed to stimulate me,
00:22:12.83\00:22:14.90
what it was as it was
designed to affirm me.
00:22:14.93\00:22:17.80
And again that's
the, that's the situation
00:22:17.83\00:22:20.47
that I keep getting in
church now that I've come there
00:22:20.50\00:22:22.64
so the blessing has
been just as much mine as
00:22:22.67\00:22:26.01
anybody else's so.
00:22:26.04\00:22:27.38
You know, I can tell you
something else about that too.
00:22:27.41\00:22:29.84
And not about
Brother Bill holding you,
00:22:29.88\00:22:31.45
because Brother
Bill is just like that.
00:22:31.48\00:22:33.42
He is a lovable, friendly guy.
00:22:33.45\00:22:35.95
He has seen what you have done.
00:22:35.98\00:22:37.75
But going back to
the Mother's Day issue,
00:22:37.79\00:22:40.09
maybe you don't
realize it but you led out,
00:22:40.12\00:22:43.46
you led the man out in
that whole Mother's Day
00:22:43.49\00:22:48.06
thing that we did, that tribute.
00:22:48.10\00:22:50.77
You were the one
who initiated the idea
00:22:50.80\00:22:53.84
and we embraced the idea,
00:22:53.87\00:22:56.37
but you were the
one who led out in it
00:22:56.40\00:22:58.31
and we were so grateful
to you because, you know.
00:22:58.34\00:23:01.38
you are a man of ideas
00:23:01.41\00:23:03.24
and the church
just followed your lead,
00:23:03.28\00:23:05.91
so you might not have
thought that you were affirm,
00:23:05.95\00:23:09.12
but the fact that all the men
00:23:09.15\00:23:11.85
turned to you for
leadership at that time.
00:23:11.89\00:23:15.66
Can you ask for more
affirmation than that,
00:23:15.69\00:23:17.43
you demand.
00:23:17.46\00:23:18.79
Wow. Well...
00:23:18.83\00:23:20.83
You know coming, coming out
and allowing everyone to see
00:23:20.86\00:23:25.90
you wear your
sorrows and your heartache
00:23:25.93\00:23:28.17
on your sleeves has allow
us into church to love you
00:23:28.20\00:23:33.48
as a person and bring
you into the family with us.
00:23:33.51\00:23:37.45
And that's why
Brother Bill can hug you
00:23:37.48\00:23:39.41
and Gene can wash your
feet, you're part of the family.
00:23:39.45\00:23:42.88
And it just reminds me,
what it's as gonna feel like
00:23:42.92\00:23:45.62
when we get to heaven,
we are part of the family.
00:23:45.65\00:23:49.06
Doesn't matter who we
were, where we came from,
00:23:49.09\00:23:52.76
God loves us anyhow.
00:23:52.79\00:23:54.90
Thank you for that thought
00:23:54.93\00:23:56.26
because now I see also
the benefit of the unit,
00:23:56.30\00:24:01.30
of the church
family because the example
00:24:01.34\00:24:03.54
that I'm receiving now
is the safe environment.
00:24:03.57\00:24:06.91
You know what?
I'm not perfect and--
00:24:06.94\00:24:08.38
You know, you see the
good, the bad and the ugly
00:24:08.41\00:24:10.38
and you know you've seen it.
00:24:10.41\00:24:12.45
And so in spite of
that you still, you know,
00:24:12.48\00:24:15.62
include me, you
still accept me who I'm.
00:24:15.65\00:24:18.22
And that in itself
is not only healing
00:24:18.25\00:24:20.89
but it's an example of what
every church can do to not just
00:24:20.92\00:24:25.09
receive homosexuals
which I think is definitely
00:24:25.13\00:24:27.70
a need that we have
in our denomination,
00:24:27.73\00:24:30.07
but also in receiving
anyone that has fallen,
00:24:30.10\00:24:33.10
anyone that has
experienced rejection
00:24:33.13\00:24:35.20
from the outside world
and even other churches,
00:24:35.24\00:24:37.77
they should be able
to come into our church
00:24:37.81\00:24:39.71
and receive that, that safety
00:24:39.74\00:24:41.81
and that confirmation
that no matter what you are,
00:24:41.84\00:24:44.25
no matter what you do
that you will be loved here
00:24:44.28\00:24:46.95
and that you'll be affirmed here
00:24:46.98\00:24:48.32
and you're
accepted here and welcome.
00:24:48.35\00:24:50.02
Absolutely.
00:24:50.05\00:24:51.39
I mean what is the
purpose of our church?
00:24:51.42\00:24:53.29
Is not Jesus soon to come?
00:24:53.32\00:24:55.42
Are we not to prepare a people
for the coming of the Lord
00:24:55.46\00:24:58.66
to make
ourselves fit for heaven?
00:24:58.69\00:25:00.90
If we have a
biases and prejudices,
00:25:00.93\00:25:03.37
we're not fit for His coming.
00:25:03.40\00:25:05.63
And we don't want
that to tarry any longer.
00:25:05.67\00:25:08.34
So, you know,
thank you, Michael,
00:25:08.37\00:25:10.11
because you have
helped us on that road towards
00:25:10.14\00:25:13.54
been able to love
one another regardless
00:25:13.58\00:25:16.41
because we want Jesus to come.
00:25:16.44\00:25:18.55
You guys are so cool.
00:25:18.58\00:25:19.91
You don't know how
awesome this is to experience
00:25:19.95\00:25:22.35
this dialog back and forth.
00:25:22.38\00:25:25.85
Just even in the general things,
00:25:25.89\00:25:27.32
I remember one time, Gene,
00:25:27.36\00:25:28.82
you know, I was
doing a health fair
00:25:28.86\00:25:30.73
and it was in Knoxville,
00:25:30.76\00:25:32.09
it was like an
hour and a half away
00:25:32.13\00:25:33.60
and I left all my
stuff in my garage
00:25:33.63\00:25:35.96
and you left your
house which was way,
00:25:36.00\00:25:38.07
you went an hour from me
00:25:38.10\00:25:39.57
and you went an hour to my house
00:25:39.60\00:25:41.10
and then another hour
out to meet me halfway
00:25:41.14\00:25:43.61
in the highway to
give me those thing so.
00:25:43.64\00:25:46.57
Again your friendship
and just in the general
00:25:46.61\00:25:49.11
casual things as
well as in the big things,
00:25:49.14\00:25:52.05
you know, those little everyday
occurrences like the day
00:25:52.08\00:25:55.28
that we helped
move somebody in the mud
00:25:55.32\00:25:57.45
and we shared a
sandwich at Subway
00:25:57.49\00:25:58.95
and we were just goofing
off and that kind of stuff.
00:25:58.99\00:26:00.99
All of those little
things are actual affirmations
00:26:01.02\00:26:04.29
that I think helped to
restore lost masculinity.
00:26:04.33\00:26:07.36
The reason that I rejected
my father at a young age
00:26:07.40\00:26:10.17
is because his
masculinity was scary to me.
00:26:10.20\00:26:14.04
And I can actually look
back and it wasn't so much
00:26:14.07\00:26:16.30
that I rejected my
dad, I rejected masculinity.
00:26:16.34\00:26:19.34
So my friendship with you
and my relationship with you,
00:26:19.37\00:26:22.28
you've made it very
easy, I come to you,
00:26:22.31\00:26:24.41
you don't judge me.
00:26:24.45\00:26:25.95
And if I do something
bad or wrong or whatever,
00:26:25.98\00:26:29.22
you don't chastise
me, you accept me back in,
00:26:29.25\00:26:31.82
you confront me with it.
00:26:31.85\00:26:33.52
And you know what?
00:26:33.56\00:26:34.89
You're showing me what
that's like to be real,
00:26:34.92\00:26:37.59
to be authentic and to also know
00:26:37.63\00:26:39.53
that no matter what happens,
00:26:39.56\00:26:41.06
I'm still a
member, I'm still a friend
00:26:41.10\00:26:43.20
and that investment in me
00:26:43.23\00:26:45.67
has been
incredibly healing for me.
00:26:45.70\00:26:47.87
It's been healing for us too.
00:26:47.90\00:26:49.80
It's been strengthening for us
00:26:49.84\00:26:51.31
and it has allowed us
to grow as Christians.
00:26:51.34\00:26:53.88
And I truly believe
that's what our church needs.
00:26:53.91\00:26:56.38
You know, we have hid this issue
00:26:56.41\00:26:57.75
under the carpet for so long,
that we really need to come out
00:26:57.78\00:27:02.08
to recognize just as Jesus did.
00:27:02.12\00:27:04.45
He loves sinners,
it's sin that He hates,
00:27:04.49\00:27:07.46
but we need to emulate Him
00:27:07.49\00:27:09.72
and make Him our
role models at all times.
00:27:09.76\00:27:11.76
Wow.
00:27:11.79\00:27:13.13
You know, Gene,
thank you so much
00:27:13.16\00:27:14.50
for your example and, Bernie,
00:27:14.53\00:27:17.23
thank you also for including
me into your family as well.
00:27:17.27\00:27:21.40
As matter of fact when your,
when your kids are in town,
00:27:21.44\00:27:22.84
you always drag them to my house
00:27:22.87\00:27:24.21
and we have
popcorn or something.
00:27:24.24\00:27:25.57
They love to come.
Yeah, yeah we have...
00:27:25.61\00:27:26.94
Especially since
you've fixed the hair.
00:27:26.98\00:27:28.31
Yeah, okay, all right.
00:27:28.34\00:27:30.25
So I want to close
with Proverbs 27:7 it says,
00:27:30.28\00:27:33.92
"Iron sharpens
iron, so a man sharpens
00:27:33.95\00:27:36.89
the countenance of his friend."
00:27:36.92\00:27:38.85
It's truly is an example
of God's restoration power
00:27:38.89\00:27:42.19
within the church.
00:27:42.22\00:27:43.56
And I want to thank
you for taking the time
00:27:43.59\00:27:46.09
to watch our episode today.
00:27:46.13\00:27:47.63
Thank you, Bernie and
Gene, for coming all this way...
00:27:47.66\00:27:49.36
You're welcome.
00:27:49.40\00:27:50.73
You know out of your own
time and I appreciate your time.
00:27:50.77\00:27:53.44
Thank you for
viewing Pure Choices today.
00:27:53.47\00:27:55.97