The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
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Parents are
cautioned that some materials
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may be too candid
for younger children.
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Welcome to the Pure Choices.
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I'm Pastor Ron Woolsey
with Coming Out Ministries
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and my guest
today is Roger Kubick,
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a good friend of mine.
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The subject that we're
going to be talking about today
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is rewiring
same-sex relationships.
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In my childhood, I was
abused, sexually abused,
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molested at a very early age,
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and that left me
very confused about
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my general identity
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and it also let me
very confused about
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friendships with other boys.
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And later in my teenage
years, in elementary school,
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I developed a
friendship with an older boy,
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he wasn't a whole
lot of older then I was,
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we were in a
singing group together.
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And I was repeatedly
victimized by this friend
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and that left me
quite confused about
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friendships
with the same gender.
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As I grew in to my teenage years
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and academy
years, high school years,
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as I would
developed friendships,
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I was
continually confused because
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I didn't really trust my own
motives in having our friend,
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was I attracted to
this person as friend
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because of my tendencies,
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my same sex attractions
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or was it a
genuine type friendship.
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And I believe that
many homosexuals have this,
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kind of, confusion
as they're growing up.
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And especially, if
this person is a Christian,
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I was a very spiritual
child, a spiritual teenager,
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a spiritual young person,
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and this was a part
of my confusion because
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I realized that my attractions
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were not in harmony
with the will of God.
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And so I did have many
difficulties in sorting out
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how to have healthy
wholesome friendships.
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Today, my guest is Roger Kubick,
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we have been friends, Roger,
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since actually the time
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that I became a
Christian, 21 years ago.
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I remember it.
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We were at a Bible
worker training program.
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And I was there
for the whole program
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and you had come for a couple
weeks to practice homiletics
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and take that course.
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And so that's where we meet
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and it was right
after I was baptize,
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I was a brand new Christian.
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And I would just like for
you to share you perspective
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of how we meet and
how we became friends.
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Well, it's pretty interesting,
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coming to that
seminar for homiletics,
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I expected to go back
learning how to preach better.
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But what I found
was a friendship in you
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and how it took place,
Ron, is I was sitting there,
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you're giving a
sermon, life testimony,
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I don't know what
you would've call it
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but that how I perceived it.
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And as you were sharing
this massage of over coming sin
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and I am just
sitting there thinking
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and, by the way,
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I haven't been in the church
that long myself at the point
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and I was still struggling
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with certain
things of the Bible.
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Being a carpenter,
mechanic, kind of, guy,
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I don't want to
just know the end result,
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I want to know how it
all gets put together,
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I want to know the
nuts and bots of it,
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more of an analytical way
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as well as the spiritual
and personal connection.
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That's what your
sermon did for me.
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I understood lot
of the nuts and bolts,
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but then I saw it in...
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As you gave that
talk, how it just...
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Come from you, it
wasn't just nuts and bolts,
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and it wasn't just theology,
it wasn't just somebody saying,
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here is the spiritual aspect,
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but it was a
whole package combined.
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So I was pretty,
quite impressed by that.
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I was learning as well as
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getting that
felling and experience
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that is
important in Christianity.
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And through it, I picked up...
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At least I thought I picked up
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the fact that you may have come
out the homosexual lifestyle.
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But I wasn't talking about--
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You didn't say a
thing about that.
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But maybe it was because
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part of what I
was hearing you say
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was relating to
me and my brother
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who was in the
homosexual lifestyle,
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and the only part
that will be concerned
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is the over coming part.
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And the fact...
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I've always been impressed
from the day I heard it,
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that day to this day,
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when you talk
about the whosoever
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and whatever, you know,
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and that just
simplified thing so well for me.
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And so after you're done
talking, if you remember,
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I came out, you went
outside to take a breather.
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Right.
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And I came out to talk to you.
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And I was very
apprehensive to approach you
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with what I was about to
ask you because I had no idea...
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Well, I had an idea,
but I didn't really know
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and so I approach
you and we just, kind of,
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exchanged a few
little words and I said,
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"Do you do you mind if I ask
you a very personal question?"
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And I remember,
I got very nervous
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when you did you that.
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What is this man
going be talking about
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and why is he
coming to me privately
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with this intense curiosity
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when I simply was
just talking about
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my life being
saved from a life of...
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I talked about in those days,
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being saved from a life
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of self-destruction
and degradation.
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I never talked
about the gay issue.
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It was nine years
after I was in a ministry
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before I was ever to
even talk openly about
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the details of
what I had come out of.
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And so when you came to me
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and wanted to ask
me a personal question,
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now I am very nervous,
what is that he wants to ask.
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So...
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And also I want to ask,
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what was it that made you feel
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that you could open up
to me about this issue?
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Well, I just
wanted to address that.
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Yes.
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What made me feel that way
was the sermon that you gave.
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There was
sincerity, there was openness,
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you weren't hiding that
you were never a sinner.
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You mentioned the fact
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that you had a
degrading lifestyle.
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And I could relate
to myself personally
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as far as the
degradation part goes.
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And I can't really put my finger
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on what made me
think that maybe,
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you'll come out of
the homosexual lifestyle
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other than...
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Even my brother
hadn't talked to me in years,
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He basically disowned me.
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So were kind of
cued into that already
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because of your
brother. Yeah. Yeah.
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I didn't disown my
brother, he disowned me.
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I was very close to my brother
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and then he got
out in that lifestyle
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and he thought his
family disowned him,
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but we really didn't.
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Anyway,
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but what I got out of
that sermon was your openness
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and I just felt like
that here is kindred spirit,
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here's a person who understand--
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We both received
that same spirit,
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there was a bond there.
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Before I talked to you,
I already felt the bond.
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I already felt we were
gonna be brothers for life.
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So anyway, I come out
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and I thought,
well, if, you know,
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if he can make
it that clear there,
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maybe he won't be
offended if I ask him
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and I need to ask because
it's information that I need.
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And what I wanted to know was
how do I approach my brother?
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What I can do for my brother
to help him come to Christ?
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And if indeed you were
in the homosexual lifestyle,
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you'd know that
answer more then anybody
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and I've had an
opportunity like that before.
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And that's what motivated
me to ask that question.
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I know I was very surprised
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when you asked me
such a direct question,
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but I have since learned
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that Roger is a
very direct person.
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He...
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Whatever questions you have,
whatever in your heart, Roger,
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you just put it out their,
there is this transparency,
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it's something that
I really admire because
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in my own personal life,
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I had lived so many years being
everything but transparent.
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I lived a double life.
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I lived one life during the day
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and a totally different life
at night in the sub-culture,
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in the gay
life, in the gay bars,
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the night club scene
and all those things.
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And so this has been
very refreshing for me
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to find a new someone
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who is so open
and so transparent
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and we can talk about anything.
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Well, I was shaking in my boots.
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I didn't know if I should really
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asked the
question because first off,
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if you weren't,
would I really offend you
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and then if you
were, how did he know?
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What did I do to
make him get that idea?
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You know, I just
didn't have any idea really
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how to approach you, but it
was just with simple honesty
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and you made it easy by giving
a simple and honest sermon.
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So I think that was
where that connected.
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Somehow, I just knew,
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by your testimony
of over coming sin,
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you probably
wouldn't be offended,
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just by the way you
give your testimony there.
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I know we were only there
together for about two weeks.
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I mean, I was there
for the whole program,
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like I said earlier, and
you there for the two weeks
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and during that two
weeks we really connected.
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Yeah.
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A friendship was born
that I believe is eternal.
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Now this is
important to me because
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coming from the gay life,
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friendships usually
came with ulterior motives.
00:10:06.07\00:10:10.07
It seemed like, so many times,
00:10:10.11\00:10:12.47
you could be loved one
day and hated the next.
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And it was not
just a sexual thing.
00:10:16.41\00:10:19.58
I never knew whether a person
wanted to be my friend because
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of either the
sex thing or because
00:10:23.18\00:10:26.86
they wanted to get
closer to my circle of friends
00:10:26.89\00:10:29.66
or there was some advantage
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that they could find in
having a friendship with me.
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I never, never
really could trust
00:10:33.73\00:10:36.80
the motive
behind that friendship.
00:10:36.83\00:10:39.37
For example, when I became
a Christian, 21-years ago,
00:10:39.40\00:10:42.67
I had written to two of my very
best friends in the gay life.
00:10:42.70\00:10:46.44
We had been friends
for many, many years.
00:10:46.47\00:10:49.98
And I was sharing
with them something,
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and I was surprised to find
my letter returned in the mail.
00:10:52.55\00:10:56.99
And on it was written,
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"We don't know
anybody name Ron Woolsey."
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And these were my very
best friends for years,
00:11:01.49\00:11:04.69
but when I became a
Christian, I was no longer...
00:11:04.73\00:11:08.23
It was like, they...
00:11:08.26\00:11:10.43
Like I have been
martyred and buried
00:11:10.47\00:11:13.17
and consigned to whatever,
it was like I never existed.
00:11:13.20\00:11:16.81
And so to find someone
that would accept me as a friend
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and we connected,
like as I said that day,
00:11:22.91\00:11:25.35
and it was like an
eternal friendship was born.
00:11:25.38\00:11:28.18
Did you see it that way
00:11:28.22\00:11:29.85
that in a very shot
time we were kindred spirits?
00:11:29.88\00:11:33.29
We bonded very quickly. Right.
00:11:33.32\00:11:36.19
And your dad was there too
at that time, right, right?
00:11:36.22\00:11:38.96
Oh, yes.
00:11:38.99\00:11:40.33
And I'm sure that
added a lot to the friendship
00:11:40.36\00:11:41.73
and he was quite a carer.
00:11:41.76\00:11:43.10
And while your dad
was such a dear man
00:11:43.13\00:11:44.70
and I just felt immediately like
00:11:44.73\00:11:47.10
I belong to the Woolsey family.
00:11:47.14\00:11:48.70
Right. And, which...
00:11:48.74\00:11:51.47
Anyway, the whole
thing evolved there.
00:11:51.51\00:11:55.51
I guess what I kind of
like to share right now
00:11:55.54\00:11:59.01
concerning the
homosexual part in my brother
00:11:59.05\00:12:02.22
and a little bit of background
with me is that I did...
00:12:02.25\00:12:07.66
You know, I knew my...
00:12:07.69\00:12:09.02
I probably was the first,
00:12:09.06\00:12:10.39
maybe to know in my family
that my brother was homosexual.
00:12:10.43\00:12:14.00
And it never really
bothered me that much,
00:12:14.03\00:12:18.07
but when I became a Christian,
00:12:18.10\00:12:20.64
the fact that he was homosexual
still didn't bother me.
00:12:20.67\00:12:24.57
But the fact that he didn't
know Christ really bothered me.
00:12:24.61\00:12:26.78
I had two brothers at the
time that did not know Christ.
00:12:26.81\00:12:29.84
And the other brother, I
could approach and talk to,
00:12:29.88\00:12:33.92
not really about
Christ, but I could talk to him,
00:12:33.95\00:12:35.78
but remember I said
this brother has disowned me
00:12:35.82\00:12:37.55
and there was no
dialogue between us for years.
00:12:37.59\00:12:41.29
And so...
00:12:41.32\00:12:42.66
Oh, I'd call him on
his birthday every year,
00:12:42.69\00:12:44.96
but what more can I do?
00:12:44.99\00:12:46.43
Now that I've
become a Christian,
00:12:46.46\00:12:47.80
what can I do to
reach out to my family?
00:12:47.83\00:12:50.23
And so that was that
were that connection,
00:12:50.27\00:12:53.07
but now my other brother, he...
00:12:53.10\00:12:56.37
When we would talk,
00:12:56.40\00:12:57.74
he would always bring
up our past and things
00:12:57.77\00:12:59.17
we used to do and things
00:12:59.21\00:13:00.54
I just didn't
want to talk about.
00:13:00.58\00:13:02.14
I certainly, didn't
want my children being around
00:13:02.18\00:13:04.71
when he would talk
about those things,
00:13:04.75\00:13:07.12
which apparently was
okay around his children.
00:13:07.15\00:13:09.78
But I didn't...
00:13:09.82\00:13:13.56
It was just very hard,
00:13:13.59\00:13:14.92
very difficult for
me in that relationship.
00:13:14.96\00:13:18.06
And the point I'm getting
at here is that in my mind,
00:13:18.09\00:13:21.80
the homosexuality had
nothing to do with it.
00:13:21.83\00:13:24.23
Being with out
Christ was everything to me
00:13:24.27\00:13:28.07
that as far as they went,
00:13:28.10\00:13:30.91
I wanted them to be with Christ.
00:13:30.94\00:13:32.54
And that was the issue to me.
00:13:32.57\00:13:34.31
And if I can
bring up why that is?
00:13:34.34\00:13:36.51
Is because how my father was.
00:13:36.54\00:13:38.28
I was brought up in
a don't go to church,
00:13:38.31\00:13:42.18
we don't go to...
00:13:42.22\00:13:43.55
Well, once in a while.
00:13:43.59\00:13:44.92
Christmas, you know, and Easter
00:13:44.95\00:13:46.29
and stuff like
that, we would go,
00:13:46.32\00:13:47.66
but I wasn't really
brought up in a Christian home,
00:13:47.69\00:13:49.06
the Bible wasn't
read at home at all.
00:13:49.09\00:13:51.19
Bible stories were
not read at home at all,
00:13:51.23\00:13:53.53
but I understood
sound, solid morals.
00:13:53.56\00:13:56.53
And it was my father
who taught me that men,
00:13:56.56\00:13:59.83
all men were equal.
00:13:59.87\00:14:01.47
Didn't matter who they
were, what they were, what not.
00:14:01.50\00:14:03.84
And one thing I've
told a lot of people
00:14:03.87\00:14:06.71
and I like to
tell this story is that
00:14:06.74\00:14:08.64
I remember my dad and
I was going to this town,
00:14:08.68\00:14:10.75
when I was probably about,
00:14:10.78\00:14:12.18
I don't know,
14, maybe, years old.
00:14:12.21\00:14:15.18
And we were just
going out of our town.
00:14:15.22\00:14:18.02
And the town drunk was laying
00:14:18.05\00:14:19.42
on the side of the road,
00:14:19.45\00:14:20.79
this was early in the morning.
00:14:20.82\00:14:22.66
And we were in a hurry.
00:14:22.69\00:14:25.29
My dad pulls over, get's him up,
00:14:25.33\00:14:28.20
put's him in the backseat
of the car, takes him home,
00:14:28.23\00:14:31.23
get's him settled in his
home, and then we go on again.
00:14:31.27\00:14:34.34
But that's what my dad was.
00:14:34.37\00:14:35.70
And I just...
00:14:35.74\00:14:37.07
The influence of
a father who had...
00:14:37.11\00:14:39.31
To help a young
boy, understand that no,
00:14:39.34\00:14:45.21
there isn't anybody out
there who doesn't need help,
00:14:45.25\00:14:48.25
and even though worst
of them, you should help.
00:14:48.28\00:14:51.62
And so just...
00:14:51.65\00:14:54.99
You were just being,
00:14:55.02\00:14:56.56
you were just being a genuine
person and I think this what...
00:14:56.59\00:14:59.89
One thing that is so
important in our relationship.
00:14:59.93\00:15:03.93
I never did sense any
pretension or any effort
00:15:03.97\00:15:08.60
on your part to patronize me
00:15:08.64\00:15:12.94
or there was no sense of
an obligation on your part
00:15:12.97\00:15:19.11
to befriend someone who
would come out of the gay life.
00:15:19.15\00:15:22.78
To me, I didn't
know at that time
00:15:22.82\00:15:24.95
how long you had
been a Christian.
00:15:24.99\00:15:27.79
In fact, I'm
not sure even today,
00:15:27.82\00:15:29.89
how new you were in
that faith at that time.
00:15:29.92\00:15:33.19
But evidently, we
came into the faith,
00:15:33.23\00:15:35.66
into the Christian
faith close to the same time,
00:15:35.70\00:15:39.47
within a matter of
a couple years or so.
00:15:39.50\00:15:42.67
It might have been...
00:15:42.70\00:15:44.21
You want to come
into the Christian faith,
00:15:44.24\00:15:45.57
I didn't know a
lot about Christianity.
00:15:45.61\00:15:46.98
Right.
00:15:47.01\00:15:48.34
And, I'm sad to say, my
church didn't teach me enough.
00:15:48.38\00:15:51.71
However, I knew how
much I wanted the Lord.
00:15:51.75\00:15:54.58
That much I knew.
00:15:54.62\00:15:56.52
How to get more of Him,
00:15:56.55\00:15:57.89
I still didn't quite understand,
00:15:57.92\00:15:59.42
but there again, that's
why I felt close to you.
00:15:59.45\00:16:02.72
Your sermon shared
a lot of that with me.
00:16:02.76\00:16:07.06
And it was the personal...
00:16:07.10\00:16:08.93
I've heard sermon like it
before, as far as context,
00:16:08.96\00:16:12.23
but to hear
somebody who's actually given
00:16:12.27\00:16:16.04
the sermon of overcoming
in their own testimony,
00:16:16.07\00:16:18.77
in their own skin,
according to their own life,
00:16:18.81\00:16:22.08
that was something
completely different.
00:16:22.11\00:16:23.95
And you were talking
about me being genuine,
00:16:23.98\00:16:26.68
that's genuineness
that I saw that allowed me
00:16:26.72\00:16:31.19
to take that
risk to go up ask you
00:16:31.22\00:16:33.25
about you're past lifestyle,
00:16:33.29\00:16:35.02
so I could talk to you about
how to relate to my brother.
00:16:35.06\00:16:38.59
And, I have heard and said
00:16:38.63\00:16:40.10
and I believe it is true
that our own personal testimony
00:16:40.13\00:16:43.60
is our most
powerful presentation,
00:16:43.63\00:16:45.80
our most powerful
sermon for one thing,
00:16:45.83\00:16:48.70
no one can argue with you on it.
00:16:48.74\00:16:51.54
They can't
really argue the details
00:16:51.57\00:16:53.68
or whatever
because it is your story.
00:16:53.71\00:16:55.04
That's right.
00:16:55.08\00:16:56.44
And that's why in
Revelation 12:11, we read,
00:16:56.48\00:16:58.15
we overcome,
speaking of the accuser
00:16:58.18\00:17:00.45
of the brethren by
the blood of the Lamb
00:17:00.48\00:17:03.12
and by the word
of our testimony.
00:17:03.15\00:17:05.89
Many of my messages that
00:17:05.92\00:17:07.26
I think maybe
difficult to present,
00:17:07.29\00:17:09.79
I do present through
a testimony perspective
00:17:09.82\00:17:12.66
and it makes it
easier to go down.
00:17:12.69\00:17:15.06
But I know that right away,
00:17:15.10\00:17:19.57
we connected and we
developed this friendship
00:17:19.60\00:17:23.81
that has lasted
now for 21-years.
00:17:23.84\00:17:28.01
I think it's this
genuineness that I see in you
00:17:28.04\00:17:32.21
and you evidently see in me.
00:17:32.25\00:17:36.35
I have...
00:17:36.38\00:17:37.75
And maybe you can
correct me if I'm wrong on this.
00:17:37.79\00:17:41.02
I have this
theory or observation
00:17:41.06\00:17:46.49
that spiritual ties
can actually be stronger
00:17:46.53\00:17:50.00
than blood ties.
00:17:50.03\00:17:53.54
Have you seen that?
00:17:53.57\00:17:55.00
Absolutely,
00:17:55.04\00:17:58.47
should I say that my
brother's name at this point?
00:17:58.51\00:18:01.04
Well, it's fine.
00:18:01.08\00:18:02.41
It's not a whole lot
of different from mine.
00:18:02.44\00:18:03.78
Oh, okay.
00:18:03.81\00:18:05.15
My brother's name is Ron.
00:18:05.18\00:18:06.51
And sometimes people get
confused when I talk about
00:18:06.55\00:18:09.02
my brother Ron, because
I've got two brother Rons.
00:18:09.05\00:18:11.95
And our whole family...
00:18:11.99\00:18:14.36
And I just
mean, our whole family
00:18:14.39\00:18:15.76
has felt just
completely connected,
00:18:15.79\00:18:18.43
one family with yours.
00:18:18.46\00:18:20.10
I mean, I've stayed in
your house for a few weeks,
00:18:20.13\00:18:22.20
helping you build it.
00:18:22.23\00:18:23.57
I never felt like I
was anything but family.
00:18:23.60\00:18:26.30
But that wasn't just because
00:18:26.33\00:18:27.67
I had so much hospitality there,
00:18:27.70\00:18:29.24
it was the bonds
that we made earlier
00:18:29.27\00:18:30.97
that already
decided that we were family.
00:18:31.01\00:18:34.78
And to me, you can look
at it from your perspective
00:18:34.81\00:18:39.48
of a homosexual
coming into the church,
00:18:39.51\00:18:43.59
finding a bond
with another member.
00:18:43.62\00:18:45.45
I was looking at it
from the perspective that
00:18:45.49\00:18:48.02
it's hard to find good
male friendship, period.
00:18:48.06\00:18:50.49
I don't care how
you're looking at it.
00:18:50.53\00:18:51.86
Right.
00:18:51.89\00:18:53.23
Somebody that you can talk
to about anything in your life
00:18:53.26\00:18:56.16
and just know that you're safe,
00:18:56.20\00:18:59.40
that there's trust element,
00:18:59.43\00:19:01.14
that's where it stops.
00:19:01.17\00:19:02.50
It's just the
dialogue between us
00:19:02.54\00:19:03.87
and it doesn't go
anywhere else unless asked to.
00:19:03.91\00:19:07.11
I know in my own family,
00:19:07.14\00:19:09.81
I have two brothers
and I love them dearly.
00:19:09.84\00:19:13.01
We're very close
in loving each other.
00:19:13.05\00:19:17.75
But we're not on the
same spiritual plane.
00:19:17.79\00:19:22.42
And I pray for my brothers
00:19:22.46\00:19:23.89
and I want to see
them in the kingdom.
00:19:23.93\00:19:25.39
And this one brother,
00:19:25.43\00:19:27.56
he tells me he
prays for everyday.
00:19:27.60\00:19:29.80
And I think that's
really a wonderful thing
00:19:29.83\00:19:32.07
to hear from him as
he has not taken a step
00:19:32.10\00:19:36.27
to actually become
officially a Christian.
00:19:36.30\00:19:39.61
But I know when
I go to visit him,
00:19:39.64\00:19:41.48
and though we
each other very much,
00:19:41.51\00:19:42.98
unless the
television is running,
00:19:43.01\00:19:46.15
our visitation
becomes very awkward
00:19:46.18\00:19:48.78
because we don't
know what to talk about,
00:19:48.82\00:19:52.39
with the television
going, like the NASCAR races,
00:19:52.42\00:19:54.79
I mean that's
something he's really into
00:19:54.82\00:19:56.83
and I really into it
also when we're visiting.
00:19:56.86\00:20:01.00
But while we're watching
the races, we're occupied
00:20:01.03\00:20:04.13
and this is quality
time for us, we're together.
00:20:04.17\00:20:07.30
We don't really
know what to talk about.
00:20:07.34\00:20:09.64
Then something
will come to mind,
00:20:09.67\00:20:11.37
and he'll bring up something
and we'll talk a little bit
00:20:11.41\00:20:13.58
and then we go back to
watching the television.
00:20:13.61\00:20:16.28
And then
something comes to my mind,
00:20:16.31\00:20:18.31
and then I bring up
this and we talk about it
00:20:18.35\00:20:22.55
and then pretty soon,
00:20:22.58\00:20:23.92
we're back to
watching the television
00:20:23.95\00:20:25.29
because that
fills in the dead time.
00:20:25.32\00:20:29.59
Roger, you and I have never
sat watch television together.
00:20:29.62\00:20:32.03
I didn't think of that.
00:20:32.06\00:20:33.40
You know, I don't
think we've ever sat
00:20:33.43\00:20:34.76
and watched television together
00:20:34.80\00:20:36.13
and we never seemed to
have any lack of things
00:20:36.16\00:20:38.43
to talk about, why is that?
00:20:38.47\00:20:40.47
Well, may I say that sometimes
00:20:40.50\00:20:43.81
I wonder if I can
get a word in advice.
00:20:43.84\00:20:47.11
Oh, surely not.
00:20:47.14\00:20:48.48
I wanted to say
that before you did.
00:20:48.51\00:20:52.01
It's because we have so much...
00:20:52.05\00:20:53.72
And I feel the same way.
00:20:53.75\00:20:55.08
To talk about so much
in common, we have Christ.
00:20:55.12\00:20:58.29
And that's
everything in our lives.
00:20:58.32\00:21:00.12
And I'd like to say right now
my other brother is in Christ
00:21:00.16\00:21:03.02
and I want to
praise the Lord for that.
00:21:03.06\00:21:04.43
Amen.
00:21:04.46\00:21:05.83
That I have another
brother now that I can...
00:21:05.86\00:21:08.26
A blood brother at
that, that I can talk to
00:21:08.30\00:21:10.77
and we can share
and I can rejoice.
00:21:10.80\00:21:12.77
And that same idea to
me has to be transferred
00:21:12.80\00:21:18.27
to us as members of the church.
00:21:18.31\00:21:19.87
We don't...
00:21:19.91\00:21:21.48
We shouldn't just
look to that moment
00:21:21.51\00:21:23.51
when our family
becomes Christian.
00:21:23.55\00:21:26.01
We need to look to that moment
00:21:26.05\00:21:27.38
when anybody that
we're involved with,
00:21:27.42\00:21:29.22
anybody it within our
circle becomes Christian,
00:21:29.25\00:21:32.25
and when they do,
just rejoice with them
00:21:32.29\00:21:34.12
and they're brothers to
me until proven otherwise.
00:21:34.16\00:21:38.36
In our case, it went stronger
than church brotherhood.
00:21:38.39\00:21:44.27
Well, you know,
let me just say here
00:21:44.30\00:21:46.07
that over the time
that we've known each other,
00:21:46.10\00:21:49.80
you've spent a lot
of time in our home.
00:21:49.84\00:21:52.07
My wife and I and our children
have spent a lot of time
00:21:52.11\00:21:54.98
in your home and
with your family.
00:21:55.01\00:21:58.01
And over these 21-years
that we've known each other,
00:21:58.05\00:22:01.58
we have also spent
a great deal of time
00:22:01.62\00:22:04.82
talking about
biblical principles,
00:22:04.85\00:22:07.52
doctrinal issues.
00:22:07.56\00:22:09.42
And we have worked through,
haven't we worked through
00:22:09.46\00:22:13.33
many controversial issues
00:22:13.36\00:22:14.90
that were dividing Christians
and dividing the church?
00:22:14.93\00:22:17.70
Yes. And we have
come through that.
00:22:17.73\00:22:21.04
Together because
you still call me
00:22:21.07\00:22:23.91
with a doctrinal
question once in a while
00:22:23.94\00:22:25.94
and we discuss these things.
00:22:25.97\00:22:28.54
And I think this is what
I'm trying to put forward
00:22:28.58\00:22:32.15
is that we both
through our study
00:22:32.18\00:22:36.48
and through the
guidance of the Holy Spirit,
00:22:36.52\00:22:38.69
you know, we're told
that the Holy Spirit will lead
00:22:38.72\00:22:40.26
His people into all truth.
00:22:40.29\00:22:42.52
And as we listen
to the Holy Spirit
00:22:42.56\00:22:45.09
and we love
truth, we have grown...
00:22:45.13\00:22:47.93
I think together,
we have grown in truth
00:22:47.96\00:22:50.87
and in our Christian experience
and in our friendship.
00:22:50.90\00:22:53.84
And it's just
been very, very good
00:22:53.87\00:22:55.57
and healthy for me.
00:22:55.60\00:22:57.14
We both believe
in victory over sin.
00:22:57.17\00:22:59.71
Yes.
00:22:59.74\00:23:01.08
For example, when it
comes to these doctrinal issues
00:23:01.11\00:23:04.61
where we have disagreed,
have we ever disagreed?
00:23:04.65\00:23:07.38
No.
00:23:07.42\00:23:08.75
Well, if we have,
we worked through it.
00:23:08.78\00:23:10.45
Well, we may have
disagreed, maybe not disagreed
00:23:10.49\00:23:13.52
but saw things from
a different perspective
00:23:13.56\00:23:15.26
about the same
subject we agree on.
00:23:15.29\00:23:17.33
But it's always
come to the point
00:23:17.36\00:23:19.43
where we understand
what the other one saying
00:23:19.46\00:23:20.86
and in the agreement, I don't,
00:23:20.90\00:23:23.00
I can't remember
us ever disagreeing.
00:23:23.03\00:23:25.03
Well, and it's not
because we're so agreeable,
00:23:25.07\00:23:27.04
because I know
you're not very agreeable.
00:23:27.07\00:23:29.70
I say that tongue in cheek.
00:23:29.74\00:23:31.24
Now in my self we
both are kind of headstrong
00:23:31.27\00:23:34.21
and we are strong willed.
00:23:34.24\00:23:36.75
But this is the thing.
00:23:36.78\00:23:38.11
We have always gone
to the word, haven't we?
00:23:38.15\00:23:40.48
When we have
questions, we go to the word
00:23:40.52\00:23:42.75
and we have
studied that out together.
00:23:42.78\00:23:44.55
So this has been a
very bonding thing for us
00:23:44.59\00:23:46.86
and I believe it has prepared us
00:23:46.89\00:23:49.06
for an eternal friendship.
00:23:49.09\00:23:51.66
Where I was referring
to earlier friendships
00:23:51.69\00:23:53.63
that I've had.
00:23:53.66\00:23:55.00
I never knew, how
long they would last
00:23:55.03\00:23:56.36
sometimes it was
a one night stand.
00:23:56.40\00:23:59.03
Sometimes, it lasted
for two or three years.
00:23:59.07\00:24:01.64
Sometimes for
16-years, whole life,
00:24:01.67\00:24:04.21
I was in the in
the, in the world.
00:24:04.24\00:24:07.08
And then, would end when
I became a Christian but.
00:24:07.11\00:24:10.18
I believe what we've
developed as friends.
00:24:10.21\00:24:12.18
And I have
several friends, you know,
00:24:12.21\00:24:14.95
that to me in Christ have
become like brothers, like you.
00:24:14.98\00:24:19.35
And this is a
foretaste of heaven.
00:24:19.39\00:24:20.96
You know, to have this.
00:24:20.99\00:24:24.16
In the gay life
00:24:24.19\00:24:28.13
I believe this is
something that gay men
00:24:28.16\00:24:31.60
and I'm sure the
gay women or lesbians
00:24:31.63\00:24:34.84
they have this same
00:24:34.87\00:24:36.20
void in their lives
for in the case of gay men,
00:24:36.24\00:24:40.41
for male
acceptance, for confirmation
00:24:40.44\00:24:45.31
and affirmation
of their manhood.
00:24:45.35\00:24:47.68
And to have friendships
that are not based upon
00:24:47.72\00:24:51.62
out ulterior motives
00:24:51.65\00:24:52.99
and what someone
can gain from it and..
00:24:53.02\00:24:57.39
And I think within the church
00:24:57.43\00:24:59.16
it is very
important that we reach out,
00:24:59.19\00:25:02.70
that we need genuine friends
to people who are in need.
00:25:02.73\00:25:06.74
We never know what it
is they may really lack
00:25:06.77\00:25:10.51
and what they need.
00:25:10.54\00:25:12.77
I read a statement once
00:25:12.81\00:25:14.14
and I think it is
so beautiful that,
00:25:14.18\00:25:15.81
"The strongest
argument for Christianity
00:25:15.84\00:25:20.22
for the faith is a
loving and lovable Christian."
00:25:20.25\00:25:24.95
And I know from
the gay perspective,
00:25:24.99\00:25:27.82
gay men have a tendency to
be overly sensitive about this,
00:25:27.86\00:25:32.76
they don't feel loved,
they don't feel accepted.
00:25:32.79\00:25:35.83
There's always this
burden of rejection.
00:25:35.86\00:25:39.97
I really appreciate in
you right from the get go,
00:25:40.00\00:25:43.24
as I was first
coming into the church
00:25:43.27\00:25:44.81
someone who accepted me
00:25:44.84\00:25:46.68
and loved me and was
willing to be a friend,
00:25:46.71\00:25:50.15
you know, for life.
00:25:50.18\00:25:53.11
Do you see this kind
of lead within the church?
00:25:53.15\00:25:56.55
I see it a lot and I
guess what I'd like to say
00:25:56.58\00:25:59.09
to the church today
and the viewers is that
00:25:59.12\00:26:03.49
it wasn't about me
having you a friend,
00:26:03.53\00:26:08.66
the homosexual had
nothing to do with it.
00:26:08.70\00:26:10.37
I have always prayed
00:26:10.40\00:26:12.07
that the Lord would
give me a very close friend.
00:26:12.10\00:26:13.67
I even pray that today
because there's people out there
00:26:13.70\00:26:16.24
that have so much value
00:26:16.27\00:26:18.64
and it doesn't only do me
good as a man in the church.
00:26:18.67\00:26:22.78
It does the person
good who is looking
00:26:22.81\00:26:24.15
to come into the church,
00:26:24.18\00:26:25.51
whether they're
homosexuals or not and I think
00:26:25.55\00:26:26.88
the church may be
weak on this probably
00:26:26.92\00:26:29.08
because we don't
talk about it enough.
00:26:29.12\00:26:30.92
But our
relationships can be very sound,
00:26:30.95\00:26:33.76
between me and good
healthy relationships
00:26:33.79\00:26:36.86
and very enjoyable.
00:26:36.89\00:26:38.59
Yes, I want to say that
when I came into the faith,
00:26:38.63\00:26:43.87
I've been asked
a number of times.
00:26:43.90\00:26:46.50
What program did you use
to come out of the gay life?
00:26:46.53\00:26:49.64
Like there had to be
some kind of a therapy program
00:26:49.67\00:26:52.34
and I would simply say, well,
I used the Bible, you know,
00:26:52.37\00:26:56.95
I went to my knees, I
went to the word of God.
00:26:56.98\00:27:00.88
And I listen to the Holy Spirit.
00:27:00.92\00:27:03.12
And then they ask
well, who was your mentor?
00:27:03.15\00:27:05.79
And said, Jesus was my mentor.
00:27:05.82\00:27:08.32
What kind of a
support group do you have?
00:27:08.36\00:27:11.39
I say, well, my church.
00:27:11.43\00:27:13.56
You know, my prayer
meeting and my church family.
00:27:13.60\00:27:16.83
That's my support group
00:27:16.87\00:27:18.83
and I have been so blessed
00:27:18.87\00:27:21.34
to develop friendships
with people like you, Roger.
00:27:21.37\00:27:24.47
With my church
family and so forth
00:27:24.51\00:27:26.64
and what we really
need within our church today
00:27:26.68\00:27:30.95
is a safe place for
homosexuals to come,
00:27:30.98\00:27:34.22
not to come and found,
find salvation, in their sin.
00:27:34.25\00:27:38.55
But to find
salvation from their sin.
00:27:38.59\00:27:41.49
And to find a nurturing,
00:27:41.52\00:27:43.49
loving church body
that will accept them
00:27:43.53\00:27:46.96
as they go through this process
00:27:47.00\00:27:48.43
of
transformation like we all have.
00:27:48.46\00:27:51.27
So thank you so much for tuning
00:27:51.30\00:27:53.40
into Pure Choices today.
00:27:53.44\00:27:55.20